Milan. 10 minutes shall we? Meet yes.
Now darling. We're somewhere where no one is.
Listening another place home service 8:30 Tuesday night.
You mean the Forbidden goon sector?
Yes. Hello and welcome to Green Pod
this week. We're talking about the January
1955 goon show episode 1985, which was based on the 1954 BBC,
television version of George Orwell's, novel 1984.
Hope you still with me, my guest this week is Sean Gaffney and he
comes from Cheshire. Cheshire Connecticut.
That is yep. Another American can't keep them
away. It seems.
So I started off by breaking the ice with Sean by asking him what
he remembers about the actual year 1985.
Well, I was 12 and that is approximately when I first
discovered the gun show actually because leaving aside The Muppet
Show because I think most Americans, first discovered the
goons via Peter and Spike on. Puppet show.
Uh-huh, yeah, you'd 1985 or so I would have been after school
doing what I frequently did as a young young nerd, which was
going to other towns libraries to see if they had books that my
towns Library did not have and I was in a local library next to
my town and I spotted a copy of the Goon show scripts.
Hmm. And to show that I was young and
had no. Idea what it was my first
thought on looking at it was somebody's drawn all over this
book. Yeah, suck it up.
I can imagine what you might have thought that.
Yeah, but I I knew it was a radio show because it told me,
but I didn't really know anything about it besides that,
but I loved the script and unfortunately, it wasn't until I
was in high school that I found gun shows on sale in our local,
our local bookstores, okay? So, so what you're saying is you
didn't get into I mean, I knew about the show before a kind of
discovered it if you'd only because my dad will because, you
know, I was brought up in a country where the gun show was
being played on the radio and and had been, you know, for
many, many years and most of my guests being British, you know,
they they grew up, they discovered it through their
parents very often or just because it was, you know,
because sellers seek Him and Milligan were sort of
omnipresent. Yeah.
Whereas right. I'd heard of Peter Sellers um
but Spike and in particularly hairy are not all that.
Well known and benteen is basically unknown in America.
Yeah, so yeah, I but the BBC in the 80, the late 80s was really
hammering in a lot of their stuff into America.
Mmm, that's when you'd walk in and you'd find VHS of, you know,
Back at her and red dwarf and python of course.
And they also started putting out gun shows on the audio
cassettes. Yeah.
And I think the first one I got, I thought I'd got volume 1 but
it turned out had misread it and I'd got Volume 11.
So that would have been the string robberies.
Oh Rose, who was the string, robberies, you first goon
Shepherd string of robberies with the first moon show I heard
and which, you know, it's not a great gun show, but on the other
hand, my first exposure. ER to echolls is the Good King
Wenceslas, which is a fantastic first meeting for Echols.
Yeah, I've got a list somewhere of just down about 10 doing
shows that I considered would be good introductory, get insurance
for newbies. And I'm sure that I put the
string of robberies on that my default going to show that.
I always suggest as the, you know, somebody's first listen is
the fully The flea is excellent. I probably you know I usually
suggest lurgy strikes Britain okay, yeah, it's it's really got
a lot of the things you see carried forward.
It's the first time great pipe and Moriarty really team up to
fleece Nettie. The other one I suggest is my
favorite, which is the Sahara Desert statue, which I realize
is probably nobody else's favorite, but I love it to bits
everything about it. It, I'm trying to remember
because, you know, I used to listen to all them all of them
on a loop. Pretty much for about three or
four years. When I was in my game, you go,
you go through phases. I had a big goon period in high
school and college because when I went to college is also where
I found spikes War Memoirs. Okay.
But you know and then you get on to something else and then you
come back to it, that sort of thing.
And did you try to introduce any of your friends to the show, any
sort of family? Members I did well my mom sort
of tolerates the Goon show but I would not say that she likes it.
Several of my friends. It very much depends on the
show, I entered. I actually I introduced a couple
of them with tapes of 1985 and shifting Sands.
Hmm. Which on reflection shifting
Sands probably was a better introduction than 1985 despite
Jack train because of course, as we Are about to discuss 1985.
Has a few entry-level problems. Well yeah, I mean, it's possibly
the most topical goon show stuffed with references to
particularly, to the new British, sorry, BSE, light
entertainment, and this is why it was never released by
transcription Services, correct. Yeah.
The the to I think that the for gun shows that weren't released
by transcription because they were too topical to cut where
the to 1985. Tiddlywinks which was of course
based very much around a goon news event and the evils of
bushy spawn which was also based around a very specific news
event. Exactly.
Yeah, which is great. I love that show.
I don't. But we okay, that's just
because, I don't know, Amy Matthews.
And I'm just like, who is this cranky old man?
And why should I care? Yeah, well, I was the same
though. I didn't, I had no idea when I
first heard it because Tie. It was one of the first shows
that I heard because I got a tape of it pretty early on and I
didn't know about the news event that it was based upon.
I didn't have no idea about that.
I just like the fact that yes he was a cranky old man but he was
kind of wrong footing. The rest of them.
He was kind of he was throwing them and you heard them off
script. I like that element of it before
I come on. It will kill you and bring you
on. Yeah.
And I said that. Yes, you just sit down.
Then you're on your own with us. You're on there?
Yes. Would you like then?
Shall I suffer? Will you?
Well, we prompt you say now, mr. I'll give a cube.
So, what about this man? Who is the master?
Who is the master and your come on, then you say I am anything.
It's a good have good Heavens. It's the master a he Matthews.
Who is the master of the cottage?
Yes, they will say, who's the master to this project, so you
didn't Belong To Me In 1989, I made my first trip to
the UK with my dad and that was to visit Relatives in both, in
London and in Belfast. And I went to, I think it was
the HMV Oxford Street and I bought the tape that contained
1985 and shifting Sands. And I remember that.
So clearly, I went back to my cousin's flat in London and
asked to use the Hi-Fi and I played it over and over and over
again. But even then Even though I was
sort of steeped in the goons one that point there was so much in
1985 that, I just didn't understand by that point, I
hadn't read 1984. I didn't have any in, if you
know what I mean in terms of the source material and you read or
way am I had read? I had read 1984 as part of
school, right? And I remember it was, I
remember just finding it incredibly scary.
Yeah. I had of course not seeing the
Cushing version, in fact, I first watched the first 15
minutes of it a few days ago in preparation for this.
But yeah, I think I've heard a lot of people say that Spike
script for 1985 is particularly On Target.
You know. It doesn't stray off the way the
Goon show normally does because he had such a He was parodying,
such a specific thing that he had to stick to the scenes, most
of the scenes in 1985 have equivalence in 1984.
Hmm. But also of course it was, if
you think about it nice and neat, that the BBC television
drama 1984 was broadcast on the 12th of December 1954 live.
And then it was restaged. Four days later.
But then, the the goons version, the goons parody was The 4th of
January 1955, so that was literally two, three weeks after
you've been on television, and they were referencing an even
earlier, two weeks earlier for OG had greenslade in response to
seek them. Say yes big brother.
Yes he does. Is he does he cause the Goon
when 1984 came out? It was not only wildly popular,
but also wildly controversial. Yeah.
There were a lot of people writing in talking about how it
was simply. Too scary to be broadcast on
television and also politically Dynamite I think.
Yeah. But then I think people sort of
calm down a bit when they found out that the queen and Prince
Philip like this, the girls were also in the news at the time
because the week before and the week before that, to they'd done
some Churchill Impressions, which they did a lot.
But this particular one Which was another topical reference
which was edited out when the shows were first put out and
then put back in by Ted Kendall later was about a telegram.
That Churchill said that he had in regards to German weapons.
Post World War Two and then could not find and basically
left Churchill with a lot of egg on his face.
So the goons making fun of this was thought to be the last straw
and they basically I asked the BBC tell sellers Stop The
Churchill Impressions, which was brought up in the show after
this case of the missing are, when sellers starts to do a
Churchill impression and then coughs and turns into a sort of
different voice thing. Prime minister and says, don't
you read the papers? So, yes, he said, what was it
about this particular episode? Because it yet, as I say it's
the most The most topical. It's so incomprehensible to well
that that appeals to me, I've always ever since I was a kid,
been the sort who you've heard people say don't explain the
joke. Well, I'm nothing like that.
I want the joke explain to me, right?
And even when I was a kid as one thing that everybody in America
grew up with, when I was a kid was Warner Brother cartoons.
And when you watch the Warner Brother cartoons and you see,
you know, classic cartoons like baseball bugs, ending with what
is not only a reference, to Rochester from The Jack Benny
show, but an obscure reference with one of his catchphrases
that nobody remembers anymore and you're like, what is going
on here? Why is that the final punch line
to this fantastic cartoon? So you'll look into it.
And of course, In the old days, you you couldn't get the answer,
there was no internet that you couldn't exactly look this up
in, you know encyclopedias you wouldn't even know where to
begin and it's the same with the Goon show.
I mean you start off with mimeographed you know typed out
things or you know what, Roger will Mets companion?
And then maybe we get on the internet in the 90s and their
assault fan goons on Usenet. I was there.
Yeah. And the gun show forum and
eventually, with the Advent of, you know, Wikipedia and
particularly the Goon show preservation, society's
encyclopedia Guna. Cos we're now at a point where
we can figure out many of these, you know, obscure, well, we
mentioned CD plates a few weeks earlier, which turned out to be
a very specific reference that when, if you listen to the show,
it didn't sound specific at all. It just sounded like Spike being
Silly. But in terms of the Goon show, I
think the first time that I ever heard the gun show and really
wanted to figure out, what is that reference was, was better.
Putting her lie because better putting hurler is an X.
Also, an excellent introduction to the goons.
And one of the few shows that did not have a cut version
released initially, like either a transcription services or pick
of the goons version. And so, you're listening along,
many and Henry are being silly, and they asked, who could
possibly be carrying a gas stove across the Moors at this time.
And many says, lady Docker. Yeah.
And I'm like, I'm sorry who that's was I?
Well, yeah, a lot of these that I say Americans don't get.
You could actually argue it being 70 years on a lot of
prints. Don't get it either.
Oh yeah. I mean, I was listening to them
for the first time in the age, late 80s, and I was in my teens,
you know, I wasn't a lot of the references.
I didn't pick up on, but you gradually dig.
I think there's a, there's a, there's a lovely little, there's
a lovely feeling of satisfaction that there should be a word for
it, but there isn't a specific word for it.
That feeling when you finally get a reference like years
later, I felt like that when I got the telegram thing because
for years, I had no idea what that was and I'd asked other
people on the gun show forum and they They weren't quite sure and
it's only, you know, it's only recently that it's been
connected and the other one that occurred to me with that was an
early. I don't get this was from
Napoleon's piano towards the end, the Beaverbrook reference
and which is another almost every goon show.
Almost all of them have some contemporary reference in them.
Yes, yeah, yeah, I didn't know what broeckel was for the
longest time. Yeah.
And, I mean, even even the, the whistling spy and big mud turned
out to be a lot more contemporary.
Everything. I thought you've done a show on
that. That's right.
Yeah. This there's so many that even
though there are, you know, a lot of them are based on actual
events and that they do have little topical references here
and there peppered into it. It doesn't detract from the
enjoyment of the show. In fact, in some ways, I like
the Obscure references because it lets you know, you've got to
try a little bit harder, work a little bit harder.
Yeah, or when they throw in the little things, like thank you,
sir Ian. And You have to look up, Surrey
and Jacob, and that sort of thing 1985, though of course, is
sort of advanced studies in terms of contemporary references
in that. Not only of course, is that
whole show parody of 1984. But it's also riffing on what
was happening in the news at the time which was ITV, ITV was
getting set up. And they were various people
were making, you know, overtures to buying parts of the country
to do. I do B and I don't think it had
started at the time that this gunshot came out, but it was
very much in the news and there were rumors that you know, all
the radio people would leave for ITV because there would be money
there. Yes.
Now it starts at either the week before the week after Napoleon's
piano went out and I already know that because I did an
episode of Napoleon's piano and it was contemporaneous That.
Yeah, you get a lot of. You got a lot of references to
that. Including what is it, Maurice?
When it came the the band leader who was part of the Consortium
that was trying to buy up the Midlands version of ITV which he
did not actually do it turned out they didn't have the money
so it went to someone else. You Americans you call the
Maurice. It's Morris.
It's Morris in the Goon show. He is Horace minich.
And in the remade episode of 1985 is.
What is he? Then he's, he's all right,
Murray's winning Stein, Morris Winnick Stein.
Yeah, which and and sellers is very clearly doing a variation
of his Lou voice, yes, there. Which I don't know if Morris
when Nick was Jewish. I suspect probably not.
I think it was just an excuse for sellers to do the voice
this. Don't believe it.
Listen, BBC workers rise and overthrow your Masters before
it's too late. I will lead you against them
strike. Now Revolt yeah Amorous when it
gets mentioned in a one or two other goon shows.
I know he's mentioned in. I was Monty's treble.
Another fantastic gun show. Yeah yeah but so should we teach
we sort of talked about the beginning of the show so there's
this introduction. You've got work, a seagoing,
which Is what's his number? He's eight.
Four six, eight, four, six. Winston's see going.
Yeah, that's right. And he's a worker in the great
news collecting center of the Big Brother Corporation aka the
BBC. Now, George Orwell had worked
for the BBC and I was not not fond of it.
Yeah. So I don't know whether Milligan
knew that or it was just a nice, you know, it's honestly one of
those things where I think people even people reading 1984
at the time when See, big brother might have made a
connection. It's one of those things that
looks obvious in hindsight. Yeah, and it was obviously of
great opportunity for well, we must say, I mean it's written by
Eric ants and Spike. Although it's hard to tell
because I know they kind of alternated weeks, didn't they?
In terms of script writing a lot of the times, I'm not quite sure
whether this one was sort of heavily Spike or heavily.
Eric, do you have any sense? I seem to recall as Eric saying
something like he tended to keep the structure.
I love the the plot so to speak and and Spike was spiked, but
obviously was a great idea. It was a great idea to parody
1984 and to center it around the BBC, because it was a great
opportunity to get lots of digs into contemporary shows and
personalities. Yes.
And which is, of course, most of 1985 revolves around
contemporary BBC. Radio either as punch lines or
just as personalities. And I think it's impressive that
even today the shape of the show is still funny.
Even if you don't get everything it's still a very funny show.
Well this is this Misfit not he's obviously sellers doing is
I guess Cynthia voice. It's not.
Yeah, it's sort of a variation on Cynthia.
That's not quite as sexy. So to speak.
Is yes. He's Slightly slightly more
Prim. So you've got you've got her and
she's a central character and then she just disappears.
Not will never walk the streets again, why not?
She's bought a scooter but the weird thing about this and you
know appreciate what sort of data, get head here, but in the
first in the in the first version, so the the version show
15 or Series 5, You've got the antique shop and you have worker
Siegen entering the antique shop and meeting a character that you
at first think is crumb, but it's not a crumb.
It's later current. Yes, I mention this on Twitter
because evenly the album cover of 1985 had it as the antique
shop is being on bike run, but it's from sellers is voice is
changed as the show went on its most notable with blue bottle.
And with crun and also spiked with Moriarty is the most
obvious and the crun that sellers did for season 3.
I'm guessing we don't have any season 3 season 3 to seize
series 3-2. Series 5 is slightly higher
pitched. Yes.
And starting in Series 6, it's slightly lower pitch so that he
contrasts more with mini. Yeah, but even so I know what
you're saying but the the antique show, Shop owner who's
their take on? Yeah, Jerry, he doesn't have too
many of crumbs usual. Crun isms, so to speak.
I think it's definitely meant to because there is an antique shop
owner in 1984. If Peter Cushing talks to who,
of course, like everyone else in, 1984 turns out to be working
for Big Brother secretly and that scene was in fact, one of
the more memorable, from what I understand from 1984, on had At
the antique shop owner was played by Leonard Sox, who was
in yes, many other things. Anything special?
I can get. You know, just thought I'd look
in as I was passing. Perhaps it's just as well.
I don't suppose I could have satisfied your between
ourselves, the antique trades. Finished now demand has stopped
then attach China little where to album, Broken a formal.
Sit-down, what's this paperweight?
Thank you. Yeah, let it sucks.
Most famous probably today or even if he still remembered as
being the sort of like the MC on a show called the good old days.
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen, heads harmoniously
homogenized, I'm sorry. Alvin jar of Highland hilarities
means Scottish jokes, and I remember him as one of the
Bruce's from Doctor Who. Okay?
Yeah, so so the antique shop owner, if we will call them
crumb for shorthand but I just wonder why why Sal has opted to
to modify the voice like you did.
It's just, it's just a bit curious and obviously men he's
not in it. Either.
Well, many was there is a script of 1985 that with that is part
of the encyclopedia gunas. They have most of the yeah
original strips and you can see some of the cutscenes and there
were quite a few cut in 1985 including many in the canteen,
serving food, or rather saying that there is no food and
William shows up there too. Right.
Okay, okay, it bleep. Also turns out quite early on in
this doesn't use well, he does and he doesn't get Applause,
which is, I think it might be one of the last times he doesn't
get Applause. Yeah, he does in the second.
He doesn't the second episode, but he has to sort of yes to ask
for it, doesn't he? Yes.
When we, when we meet Blue Bottle, it's one of the most
borderline racy scenes ever in the Goons.
I suppose in the sense that he's he's reading what's essentially
a pornographic novel approved BBC pornography.
Yes. And of course it and of course,
it's mrs. Dale's diary because it's as I
have been listening to more and more British comedy contemporary
or modern, I think. Mrs. Dale's diary is the most
made fun of BBC Radio program ever.
Well, not the arches. The Archer is yes, but the
archers, I think there is an undertone of affection.
Everyone loves the Archer is even as they make fun of it.
I don't think there are many people who love mrs.
Dale's diary. No, nice.
Have you ever listened to any episodes?
Well, I say it's a soap opera. I mean I started to but it's
kind of boring. Oh goes it is, yeah, it's I know
the theme both which actually this is not the first time that
the theme for mrs. Dale's diary has appeared in the
Gun show, because one of the early series four episodes that
actually survives Echols has killed and heaven heaven.
Is the the harp from mrs. Dale's diary?
Yeah, I think I've heard 10 to bits of it anyway in the past
and my understanding of mr. Dale's diary.
That it was extremely precise aook and the the sort of
highlights were Mrs Dell going out to scrub a front step or
trim the Hedge. Or go and get a pound of
sausages from The Butchers and it's that level of right, which
is which is why the the parody that blue bottle is reading is,
you know, so it's so tame, you know, yes, and bleep, all tools,
the serious layering and all that's so wonderful and so
disgusting. It's rare that you could
actually hear drool running down the chin and there.
Yeah, yeah. So getting back to the beginning
of the show. So so we meet work to see goon
and they have the the daily. What do they call it?
The hate hate half hour, which is, which is straight from 1984
that was part of the parade. I watched and you actually see
them standing there. Hey, hey hey.
Yes. Yeah yeah yeah and then see goon
is Matt bye well it's great Point thin but he is playing a
character called Ronnie Waldman. Tell me about Ronnie Waldman.
Ronnie Waldman was not a character Ronnie Waldman was a
real person. Ronnie was a he hosted Monday
night at 8:00 which was a very popular BBC Radio Show and he
also was part of a TV series called kaleidoscope.
Which was hosted by McDonald's oublie, and also had a Leslie
Welch. The memory man who was on every
single BBC, show from 1951 to 1955, as far as I can tell and
Tony Hancock, right? So when Waldman it, when grid
pipe is like, what is the finest television program in the world
Kaleidoscope? You know it's basically Siegel
and sucking up yes. Grip pipes in as Ronnie Waldman
is the the goons equivalent. Of O'Brien from 1984, right?
Who is posing as a member of this case?
The ITA. But then turns out to portray
Siegen, which is, of course, all but grid paper would have been
doing anyway. So very little out of character
there. That's also where we get one of
the first things that I really didn't get, which was Wilfred
pickles. He was just, he was full
overline, stood entertainment in the 50s.
Have a go. Go.
And what was the other asked? Pickles was his TV, which is
why? Yeah, it since it's 1985 Siegel
and says son of pickles. Yes, it's interesting.
The we know that it was wildly popular.
It is literally the only gun show that popular demand had
them redo it but the studio audience doesn't seem as into
it. No, no, the Dom, the joke that
goes over best with them. One of the few contemporary
jokes that I got because it's very clear in how the crun
character tells it that, what happened?
This own object? That is beautiful, isn't it?
It's called a cricket bat. Yes.
Did they have test matches way back?
Yes, that's right. Yeah, measure, big.
This bed was used in the very last test by Len Hutton.
You can see it's quite unmarked. They love that probably because
they had literally happened. I think the week that, that was
recorded. Yeah, I remember when I first
heard this not, I didn't know who Len Hutton was, but I got
the gag because of the context. I worked it.
I worked it out essentially. So they have the hate half hour
and that's where we see her ass minich, who is leader of the
ITA? It's around this point that
seeking City hates big brother and he meets Miss fan art for
the first time. Who's extremely forward in the
sense that she's the first lied to him.
Is I love you? Yes.
Well, she does, operate the pornographic machine and the
Forbidden records department. So, presumably, she's already a
little head up. I'm amazed that that line made
it in. There are a couple of lines
built the pornographic machine and the anti-sex league belt.
Yeah. That I suspect only made it in
because they might have been part of the original. 84, I
guess that the goons defense would be well you know, you've
had this sort of thing on TV. Hello.
Can we get the more possibly the joke?
That frustrated me the most though, is this right?
Yeah, this is the weird one. I presume you talking about the
been Lyin. Hello.
Don't tell anybody but I hate baby too.
Who you been Lyin? No I was but the script was
altered, I am talking about the been Lyin joke which doesn't
work in the first show, The Audience.
Barely laughs so they tried to do it the original way in the
second show and it still doesn't work.
Yeah it's a play on the baby Bebe Daniels right and I as an
American I can tell you that I had no idea who been Lyin and
Bebe Daniels were even They fan of old Hollywood.
They pretty much went to Britain.
I mean, yeah, yes. Oh, I don't know why sellers
chose to do a Groucho voice? No, the clearly is meant to be a
Groucho voice because siguen says, Karl Marx as in.
Yes Groucho. Yeah, we just out of Interest.
I didn't I didn't check. Was did been lions and Bebe
Daniels? Did they come over to the UK?
Because of the HUAC? I don't think so.
I think it was just coming over for work rather than Than for
that. I don't I'll have to double
check. I'm not sure.
Okay. Okay.
So we have Max geldray that we have oh don't don't pass up on
Max geldray because I feel a need to jump in here at or you
have trodden all over my favorite, musical acts, so many
times before. I can't.
First of all, I didn't have the LPS in America.
In fact, the DMI shows which were released on LP, were some
of the last I ever heard, right? Because I didn't want to.
You're the shows without Max and Ray.
And so I regard, you know, the Goon show is comedy, yes, but
it's also a variety show and I think that Maxim raised
interludes help. Offset the comedy give you a
chance to relax you know, sort of reset the table so to speak.
And I also think that they're fantastic.
I mean they also play a lot of contemporary songs.
I mean as will here with this one I mean Shake Rattle and Roll
was in the chart. I think when Ray did it.
Yep. And I love the music.
The first to Emi shows I heard I got the head of the u.s. gun
show fan club dick. Baker would dub cassettes of
some of the Emi shows that aired on on radio for radio.
Seven. Something like that.
Yeah. And send them out for people.
So the first do I heard we're trying to story and It's
Charlie's in search of an author, which became another one
of my absolute favorites, because I wanted to hear those
with the music because in particular China story not only
has Max and Ray but also has a Delta Springs.
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, yeah, I have had people
on who have admitted to as I did occasionally.
When I was foolish, youth admitted to skipping Ray, and a
tray and Max, but I've become of warm to them a lot more ways of
God. During distant again, both of
them are integral to the show. I have pleasure in presenting
those glamorous grandmother's the three beverage sisters
correction the Beverly twin Miss Beverly were saying everybody
done, seeking arrives at the Grosvenor hotel and we what's
your awareness of any of the Beverly sisters I mean I assumed
they were the same as the Andrew sisters which actually turns out
to be true. Yeah I was surprised they all
got killed off given their real likes performing sisters.
I was like that was rather mean if the gun show I think they had
a reputation for being a third-rate Andrew sisters, kind
of. Yeah well I mean this was the
50s was, shall we say not the best time for British music?
I mean, when you when you hear Elvis and think we need our own
Elvis and come up with Tommy Steele.
Yeah, something is wrong. Eccles going in and out of
doors, is a recurring theme in the yes.
You've got the Echols and see goon and nut scene and then
you've got the extended chat with the decals and blue bottle
which is always lovely. Yes II.
One of my favorite lines is where Blue Bottle says, I'm a
man of mystery. Yes Yeah, he talks about seeing
his sister's washing on the line.
They're both such a distance. A bit Blue Bottle was sort of D
Aging in series 5 because if you listen to earlier, shows like
like greatest mountain in the world and some other extant
series for shows, he's still sort of split bustle.
Yes, he's still meant to be an adult but starting around Series
5 I think is when Spike gets the image of him as a Boy Scout.
Well, yeah, because Then the starlings, he's essentially
playing an adult his name. Yeah.
But but yes, then you're absolutely right.
Then from Series 5 onwards, yes, he is D.
Aged he's this, he's this adolescent of indeterminate age.
I've had some people sort of think that he was about, fuck.
He's meant to be five years old but he's a lot older than that.
No, I'd say he's 12 or 13, maybe.
Hmm, he's dead. Hubert, he is hitting him.
What's that? Gun show?
I forget which one where he's talking about growing hairs on
his legs. Nature is preparing me for
marriage with the. Yeah, it's around this time,
isn't it when? So you've got see, goon goes to
the ITA or good goes to number ten, are you certain Street?
And is met by runny Waldman who reveals that he is working for
the ITA supposedly and is that great line where they drink and
then smash their glasses in the fireplace?
It's Egan has Borrow a spare pair to find his way home, yes.
Which I have you seen the London entertains?
Clip of 1951 goons. Yes, they do something very
similar. Yes, there's that there's a cut
B, which probably very wisely cut, which is a lot more nasty
towards the ITA are ITV. We're grid pipe says, in fact,
anything that Joe public laps up and rakes in the shekels is the
property of ITA and I'm like that probably deserve to be
Cuts. Yeah.
Yes. They just thought that the ITV
was going to be crass and commercially driven, which
corset it was to a different was, but I don't think it was
quite as bad as they thought. No.
Now so Room 101 is, is now, you know, it's such a common phrase.
Now it's become part of the yeah.
And I think let's say you have a, you have a show.
Where is it? Paul Merton.
Yes. Yeah, so it was it was it began
as a radio show, I think. And then Nick Hancock took it
onto TV, the TV version and then pull motion took over.
And it was, it was a great show. It was back in the nineties and
it was, it was essentially every week, a celebrity would would
come on and consigned to Room 101, eight or nine things that
he or she absolutely hated. And which is essentially what
spike is doing here? Absolutely.
And and so, yeah. Yeah, so seeking turns out to be
betrayed by Ronnie Waldman and is taken to the Listening Room.
There was a torture, a line that was cut that was in the original
script where sequences I won't talk and grid pipe says, can you
scream? Yes, that'll do.
Which I think was probably the funniest gag that they cut.
That would, that was quite good. Although somewhat dark.
Yeah. Yes.
And it's so secret to torture consists of Theme songs from
popular BBC, programmes at the time.
Yep. We've already mentioned mrs.
Dale's diary, which comes up and we mentioned been lion, which of
course the show was life with the Lions and then they had the
script. The script said the Archer is in
place of life with the Lions and that would have gone over my
head to, I mainly know the Archer is these days due to
people talking about it on Twitter because I think it's
still going. Oh yeah, yeah.
Still very popular as far as I know.
And I remember the first I heard of it, I must have been reading
some Doctor Who nonfiction book or something, and they talked
about the death of Grace archer in 1950.
Something as being one of the iconic events of that decade.
Yeah. No.
That was 55 and I've got a feeling I need to check, but
I've got a feeling that the death of Grace Archer was in
response to ITV, starting Even though I was on the radio, I've
got a feeling that it was the BBC trying to pull out all the
stops to overshadow it overshadow ITV.
Yeah. Well it with the Archers theme
does get played on a game show. Try to remember which one I
think is that the Spanish suitcase I know, I'm not
precisely sure. It's that dented and identity.
Yeah, the one yeah, it was it the one where they're all Welsh
is that the thing on the mountain I don't think so.
I think it's more well known because I honestly mid series a
is sort of the nadir of the good is because it is yeah.
Willmott I think at it correct when he said that they should
not have been doing this and the Vintage goons at the same time
it just exhausted them. Yeah.
Usually vintage guns doesn't do it for me for one thing.
It going a bit off topic, there are some contemporary references
that are some of my absolute favorites in series 4.
That are cut for vintage goons and I'm very bitter about that.
I know the missing prime minister, my favorite joke is
when William is gagged with it with a hand towel and Nettie
says, the initials WC must mean Winston Churchill.
I hope so. Yeah.
And they cut that for vintage goons for obvious reasons.
I even as an American kid, I knew what w cement.
Yeah. And the other one is from the
greatest mountain in the world which is the series for one is
another one. The scene with crun and Nettie
and Eccles and Ray and the mole is might be in my top five goon
show scenes ever and there's a wonderful bit where the mole
comes with a note and Henry reads it out and it's like you
know to to Britain with a with love from our Pals, the
Egyptians yes, which was cut from vintage goons again for
obvious reason. Here is the moon.
Oh yeah. Look at him.
He must be hungry. Yes, he had boy, he is a nice
room for you. Thanks anymore, you idiot axles
that was for the lawyer. I say are you are you sure?
He's a mole, Kathy them. Oh look, here's the letter with
love to our dear British, friends from your parents.
The Egyptian there. Hmm.
If you don't believe me read the label around its neck is proved
it says L i0n and I mul L IO. Well, what does it say?
Silly man? You Ellington.
Do you think it's a liar? Yeah, a vintage jeans.
It's absolutely great. I remember always being a bit
down on it when I when I listen to it, when I was a kid and I
don't know why, because they were strong scripts, more or
less. They were I have issues
sometimes with with Moriarty. I have some issues, same issues
I have with series 9. I get that Moriarty, as sort of
that cringing, you know, wreck is funny.
Yeah, but I have I have two issues with it first.
I I have trouble understanding Spike.
Yeah, when he is when he is doing later, Moriarty, as
sometimes, he's just completely unintelligible to me.
And the secondly, I think sometimes I particularly have
this problem with Dishonored. Again I have always said that I
will die on the hill that I think Dishonored from Series 5
is better than Dishonored again from series 9 right II, may be
the only one who thinks that but there's a great gag where
Moriarty steps out and Walks into the light and it's one of
those where I think it works better with the Suave sensible
Moriarty than I think it does with a Moriarty who would have
walked into a Lamppost anyway. Anyway, getting back to 1985 the
two references that I only got like this year where the huh
gets and also SE bond is a bond, is compared to Echols and I
guess he was a yiddishe comedian.
Yeah, I think so. And I've watched him on YouTube,
he's nothing whatsoever, like Eccles, so no, but but, but
millions of people around the world have seen his face.
You've seen his face. You've seen his face.
Many, many many times really. Yeah.
I'll give you a clue The Beatles.
Oh, is he an search and pepper? He's on searching pepper.
Ah he's one of the figures on the Sergeant Pepper album.
I think Ringo chose him. As Lee is if we're inclusion.
I'm not quite sure. Why.
Well, that was the other thing is, when I was in college and I
first heard because I was, I was late to music and then I sort of
jumped into the deep end. So I was essentially listening
to all the music at once and so I was listening to one of the
Beatles past Master albums and it had you know my name look up
the number. Yeah and I'm listening to it and
all of a sudden I'm like is that John talking like blue bottle or
is that Peter Sellers? And if know it was Lenin doing a
bluebottle impression but the next the next bit is perhaps the
reason I wanted to come onto wooden pod, okay, as it is a
series of dense references that get a lot of big laughs and are
quite funny but I they do revolve around one punch line
and that punch line is. It's funny because Ray Ellington
is black. Yeah, now I spiked did this
punch line. An awful lot throughout the gun
show, which, I mean credit, despite because I've watched a
lot of Looney Tunes, he doesn't really go for the, you know,
lazier race or stupid caricatures.
Hmm. If he's, if he's trotting this
out it is for one reason alone. It's funny because this is
somebody that you would think would be English or Scottish or
Irish, or obviously white played by Rail and yeah.
And the joke here is that he is playing Barbara Kelley who was
actually Canadian But she emigrated to Britain with her
husband, who was Bernhard Braden, who had a lot of shows
in the 50s. Yeah, and Barbara Kelley was on.
What's My Line, which is referenced here and it's the
reference. Oh, by the way, sorry to cut in
there, I'm pretty sure that Maurice Winnick boat the format
of What's My Line and brought it to British television.
Oh he did. He was involved with What's My
Line? In some capacity act because the
gun show, of course, later did their own parody of What's My
Line. Although, that was a lot that
started as the parody, and then sort of went somewhere else has
to 1985. Yeah.
Anyway, and there is a, you know, what's your line color
television, which again, I think is another.
It's funny because Ray Ellington is black.
Yeah, because the BBC didn't even have color television until
1967. So I think it's color.
Yes. And then he says, Like back on
the old flying wire, which I guessed was Peter Pan.
And it turned out. I was correct.
It turned out that about a month before this was recorded,
Barbara Kelley was doing a Pento of Peter Pan, right?
Then Ray leaves and sequence. As it must be terrible on
bedtime with Brayden, which was hosted by Barbara Kelley and
Bernhard Braden. You might want to put the clip
in here, I will lie on the couch.
We think it's a great Improvement.
It must be terrible at bedtime with Brayden.
Well, it gets dark early in Canada which is very clever and
also racist. Yeah, so it's just a lot all in
a row and I so much of it is just what to, you know,
Americans or even the modern British people, who probably
don't know who burned her braids and her Barbara Kelley are Two
months ago. I got a copy of jetstorm, which
is a 1959 film, which is like, an ensemble piece.
Yes. Yeah, it's fun.
But I think let's from that bunch of famous faces and it's
set on the set on a plane, and there's a, there's a saboteur on
the plane played by, I think it was, Richard, Attenborough
memory serves. See comes in it, but he doesn't
really. Have anything to do with the
plot as such he just sat next to.
I think it's Dame Sybil Thorndike and but the
interesting thing about that is that two of the other passengers
are Bernhard Braden and Barbara Kelley and they see themselves
are the characters. I think they're just characters,
but they suspend the whole flight, the whole film playing
chess and not really adding anything to it.
So I don't know why they were in Cloud that that period in both
Hollywood. And Britain.
There were a lot of movies which are basically.
Let's have as many famous people as possible in the film.
Yeah, I'm thinking of it's a mad mad, mad, mad world, that sort
of thing. Yes, now I have a question for
you that you may not know based on one of the jokes, coming up,
how heavy was Harry cecum? At the time, the gun show was
being done. Willie Sutton wasn't 20 stone, I
don't but I don't think I don't think he was 420 which is what
the the previous one was 20 stone is 280 pounds and 30 Stone
I think is 420. Yeah I know that he was I know
that he lost five Stone in the 80s because he said so in one of
his biographies well yeah to his doctor told him that he had to
otherwise Be dead. Yeah, I think I think He piled
on the weight in the 70s and then he had to lose it.
I don't think I think his weight fluctuated in the 50s and 60s.
I think it did and well, print the gun show basically regards
him as this sort of short fat ball.
In fact it refers to every I think in Snag in the green slide
story refers to him as a little ball of fat.
Which I mean obviously is done with you know, C comes, you know
taller. Since but it is rather
interesting, he made. He made fun of his bait as much
as Spike did. I think it was part of his
character. Yeah, I don't think, I think the
pretty wasn't that much between him and Peter Sellers terms of
weight. Yeah.
Peter also fluctuated. And then we get this one.
This one people might get the wrong answer grid, pipe decides
to leave the torture to Moriarty and blue bottle and goes out to
get a saxophone lesson from Davidson and now it's not the
more modern Jim Davidson. It's the BBC dance band,
conductor Jim Davidson, it wasn't a family Entertainer.
Jim Davidson that we all know and love or not these days.
Can you take over for Bruce Forsyth?
Yeah, he did. And he was on the generation
game and then he was, he posted a snooker based game show called
Big Break, which I watch, because I like snooker, you
know, not because I like Jim Davidson, but Jim Davidson was
born about 1953. I think.
So he'd have been one year. Old one year old Anyway, then we
get what is essentially a standard Blue Bottle series 5
scene, where though, there is some nice meta humor here.
Where sequences don't you remember me?
I'm your friend. And little says, yes, you're the
one who Dead's me every week showing that well, the Lagoon
show always played fast and loose with continuity.
Sometimes they remembered each other sometimes.
They didn't. Hmm.
And this is I think really a bit weird.
Spike is winking at the camera to show that bluebottle
remembers all of his various. Well, I mean the whole point of
that stick is you have deaded me again.
So blue, bottle remembers the various times.
He's been killed but is quite happy to jump in again in the
next show. Yes.
Yeah, that said there's another gag.
That doesn't really work here. I mean the audience laughs but
they don't laugh because the gag they laugh because Blue Bottle
is blown up and that's that. Blue bottle is running away to a
missile. Nuclear missile testing range?
Yeah, I don't think that's made clear in the original at all.
No. And in the revised version they
changed. Are they re-recorded version?
They changed it to the woomer testing range.
Yeah, which also I don't think really worked either.
Now, does he say in the first one, to see saying Nevada
desert? He doesn't he says, in the
middle of the desert but he's clearly flying to America and
then going to the desert. So, if If he's going anywhere,
it's going to be there. Yeah.
But it's not funny because he's blown up by a nuclear weapon.
It's funny because he ran away from the explosion and it still
blew him up. Yeah.
And then we get, what is
probably the final obscure reference and indeed the final
gag where Horace Minnick announces that he has taken over
the BBC and they are debuting their first of their brand-new
Ita. G and it turns out to be raised
the laughs, yes, I II think, you know, this because you follow my
Twitter feed, but I have recently spent 19 hours
listening to calling all forces. It's right.
Yeah. Which is a BBC variety show that
Ted Ray hosted about four years before this gun show.
Yeah and one of the episodes in fact, featured Peter Sellers
essentially. Doing a goon show with all the
voices, he was doing a blood knocks kit.
I don't know if he wrote, I don't know if it was written by
Peter, or by Spike or by Bob monkhouse, who was the main
writer? He and Dennis Goodwin, were the
main writers for calling all forces?
I think what, who might cast gets a mention in the show as
well, isn't it? Yes, he does along with Charlie
Chester who also appeared on calling all forces.
Yeah, Charlie chest, he was a lousy comedian.
And by all accounts, well calling all forces was sort of
filled with those, but they're he basically does a mini gun
shows get where he's blood knock and he's also split muscle.
This is a this aired in early, nineteen fifty two.
So it's a good opportunity to hear a very early, her knees
butt. Muscle choice in much better.
Quality than the to extant gun shows.
We have that feature it. Yeah.
And mostly what I was struck with, bye.
Listening to all these shows. First of all form up for all
that the Goon show and spiked mock variety programs all the
time as well as Vaudeville. You know, with the I say I say
get off the stage that sort of thing, I think they have
affection for it as well. It's sort of its like, you know,
Frank Zappa making fun of doo-wop while also being very
fond of it. Mmm, but I listening to Ted Ray,
he is very much the British Jack Benny.
I've actually thought he was quite good in calling all
forces, particularly compared to some of the comics.
They brought on Ted real busy. Peter worked with him on razor
love, right? He was a huge mental to sellers,
I think he took Alex Ellis said the pretty much taught him
everything about timing. It D, it Steam, for raised a
laugh is used as the, the example of the brand-new ITA
show which is to say everything old is new again, and, of
course, seagoing regards, it is continued torture.
Yeah, and as, as it plays out, you hear them here, the cast
shouting hate, hate hate again and then you get crazy Rhythm
which was after well, after the Goon gallop Which was their
guns. Gallup was their theme song for
most of the first half of the Goon show like about mid Series
6 and crazy Rhythm. Which I it was funny because I
first heard it and I thought I've heard this before but I
don't know where and I assumed it was just some jazz
compilation and it turned out it was a looney tune.
It was on one of the mid 50's shorts Pizzicato, pussycat with
Sylvester boom. Which was basically They sort of
an air sets Tom and Jerry that Warner Brothers was doing but
he's chasing the mouse and towards the end the mouse and
Sylvester get in the piano and start accidentally playing
racing rhythm. I'm going to call the Press.
Hello. Is this gonna do?
You don't We're not gonna go through that again.
But crazy Rhythm was very popular at the time, I mean, it
was the gun show. Music number sort of alternated
between contemporary stuff like framed or Shake Rattle and Roll.
Yeah. And what were called The
Evergreens, which was stuff from the late 20s early 30s.
But They did a lot of those, whenever they're mentioning the
desert song that that straight from that period.
Doesn't that comes up in the Sahara Desert statue.
It absolutely does the long-lost number eight touring company of
the Desert Song. That's it.
Um yeah and eventually as I said this did not come out and
transcription services. So basically the BBC would have
transcription Services record, their own copy of the show for
overseas broadcasts which was fortuitous because frequently,
the BBC would then wipe the tape.
Yeah and all you'd have left. Transcription services.
And so they would make some minor Cuts.
Usually they would cut crazy Rhythm and occasionally they
would cut contemporary references like say lady Docker
and that sort of thing. And they would they released
about a hundred and eight of those.
Hmm. And then they did a thing a few
years later called pick of the goons where they cut them even
more so that they could fit in commercials.
Yeah, and They release that and those were the ones, The Pick of
the goons ones. Were the ones that were first
released on cassette back. When the BBC first started, not
the Emi versions, when the BBC started putting out the Goon
shows on a regular basis. I don't know whether that's the
case in Britain. Certainly in America, the First
and the first Napoleon's piano, I heard did not have The it was
missing scenes like Moriarty calling up to the air service
and asking about the weather was cut and, you know, various
things. And then when I got the CD of
goon show Classics to later, I was surprised to find all these
extra material and that's when I first heard of this.
No, I think, I think the BBC releases in the UK and that I
got more or less. Well, they weren't The Pick of
the goons versions. Anyway, I don't think it would
not surprise me that they, they put out something in America
where they just said, grab this off the shelf.
Yeah, but anyway, and eventually 1985, as we mentioned was ones,
basically, there were a bunch of transcription Services rejects.
We talked about the Contemporary ones, they also did not pick
ones that they already had a different version of so you
don't have Hastings flyer or one of the China stories or the
better man who never Was. Mmm.
That was surprised me because they're like, well, we have the
season 6 version and I'm like, oh, they also left out spawn.
And who is pink oboe? Probably because they did not
have hairy or Peter. I want to say they left out the
Lost year. Did they do that?
They don't think so. There were a few that did not
get transcription services but they did get pick of the goons.
There were about eight that did not get one, but God the other
it was very weird. And I think last year may have
been one of those because then there were the not chosen,
because they were never broadcast, the six vintage Dunes
that didn't air, until like the 80s or 90s.
Yeah. And then there were the ones
that were like this is to culturally insensitive for us to
really edit a way, which is Fred to Manchu the rate of the great
International Christmas pudding, which is filled with African
caricatures, the Red Fort view, white Nettie, The white Nettie
trade and the battle of spion kop.
The Chinese legs. No Chinese legs with there.
And so, is China story. So frequently, it didn't, I
mean, if China story is there but Fred the terrible revenge of
red food, and chew, isn't, you get the sense.
A lot of this is somebody noticed it at the time but did
not Chase it down further. Yeah, it's interesting.
I mean there wasn't the Red Fort one of the Emi shows that went
out on LP. It was, it was one of those.
It was The very best the goons which was the manufactured
stereo effect on it and the other one missing is Operation
Christmas Duff, possibly. Because I think they thought
that was a special show transcription Services.
It's interesting in terms of the censorship but frequently I
think people think that it's more they cut out the dirty
humor and a lot of the times. If you look at the scripts, it's
more. They cut this out because they
could make an edit. That would save a couple of S,
right? Yeah, the show was 1985 when it
went out was so well received that they did.
A remake. What four or five weeks later.
Yeah, as the 20th, in the series isn't a, the original was the
15th, the version that I've listened to, which is on the
Goon, show compendium is a sort of like it's a mismatch of
different recordings. Well, I think that the the
second version doesn't exist in the be DC archives and I think
had to there is a very poor quality audience recording of it
where you can tell because Max is playing a different number.
Ray does Shake Rattle and Roll again but Max does a different
number And I think that Ted probably Ted Kendall who does
the Restorations, I think that he may have had to put in bits
from the original for the second when he just could not get it up
to audio quality, right? Possibly.
Yeah, yeah. But the the second version is
more or less word for word the same.
Although there's little differences actually Mira's
Winnick Stein. Deadline Joker's actually as as
it was in the script and you get a rare appearance of Peter eaten
on Mike. Yeah.
Now what I wonder what idea I was wondering about why that
would because it was greenslade. Originally I was wondering that
myself. I mean green light is clearly
there. Yeah the BBC would like to call
him parent. This program is unsuitable for
the very young, the very old, the middle age.
Those just going off those on the turn, young dogs Oldham.
And John snag and a certain big brother who's just turned it in.
And they also, of course, I had John snag doing the pre-recorded
Big Brother line. See ya, which which would have
made sense. I think they probably wants to
first time around. He just, I guess he wasn't
available then. Yes and descriptive. 1985 also
mentions the continuity announcer saying that Harry is
appearing in Cinderella at the Hippodrome theater in Coventry,
which is not on any version. We have though, it does remind
you that most of the time they Were recording these and then
they were immediately off all over the country to do.
You know, appearance is in the theater.
Totally. Yeah, for everyone.
But Spike was bike. Went back to his tiny little
flat to write another gun show. Yes.
So there we go. So it's a fantastic show.
Absolutely not one that you would play to a first-time
listener, but it's still. It's an amazing show to unpick
it really is. It's one of my favorites.
For, I get that now. And now I can see why they
allowed. Yes.
The other thing I wanted to say is a bunch of interesting.
Ting. Tidbits from this.
I also saw on the website that the sequence of Mars.
Oh yes, which I, which is also doing sort of doing what I just
did, which is going through the various shows of series five and
six and picking them apart for contemporary stuff.
And so I recommend that people who want more information on
that sort of thing, check out that site.
And definitely also check out become a member of the Goon show
preservation Society. Yes, You haven't already and get
the new encyclopedia gunas, which is supposed to be
monstrously huge this time around.
Yes, which I will be doing imminently for you.
Have said this many times it's for a very modest subscription
fee. You get access to that, you get
quarterly newsletter and lots of, you know, access to lots of
information and they have events or obviously, with covid there's
been a restriction or a reduction in In events, but they
will be happening again. And yeah, if I I can be found on
Twitter, not usually talking about the Doom show, but I do,
occasionally talk about the gun show.
I my, my Twitter tends to be brought in a various topics,
but, yeah. And you were sort of like an
anime. Yeah.
I have a, I have a Blog where I review Japanese manga and light
novels, which is sort of my, my secondary Non-paying job.
Yeah. And so that but I also, you
know, I also talked about the Goon show a lot.
I talk about contemporary politics mmm-hmm and that sort
of thing. But yeah, you can find me there
as Toko Chan, and I think this has been a terrific show.
I always loved listening to it. Not sure whether I'll be able to
listen to this one because it's difficulty of hearing yourself.
I don't know how you do it. Thanks again to Sean.
Thanks for listening. See you soon.
Bye. It is not enough to obey Big
Brother. You now know what is needed,
which is you must love.