Have you ever heard someone being sick refer to as luggy?
Mmm. That's it was invented in the
50s by Spike Milligan. Oh really lug.
He's really yeah. Solar GE is the name of a
fictional disease from an episode of the Goon show.
He did with Peter Sellers as Spike Milligan Peter Sellers and
Harry cecum. It was one of the one of the
joke storylines revolved around these two scammers, convincing
the government. There was a new disease called
luggy that they had to buy medicine for and that only they
sold man owed to have the cultural impact of something
making TV when there were three TV shows.
Oh man, well, this is even on the radio and the Goon show.
Oh yeah, yeah yeah, even them. Hello, and welcome to goon pod.
This is a podcast which asks, special guests to talk about a
comedy show stuffed with funny voices and catch phrases while
forbidding them from doing funny, voices, and catchphrases.
That's the thing. Pierre.
A, there's the sort of an unspoken rule that people doing
bluebottle when Echols his stuff strictly verboten.
Yeah. Okay that's fair enough.
Not even not even blood. Knock.
Okay well what can you do? But not, oh God, I'll think of,
I think about it. All right.
Okay so as you can as you can hear my guest this week I've
already named him. It is Stand-Up writer and
co-host of what I would call a suppose the thinking persons
podcast, but pod, it's it's PN of Ellie.
Hello Pierre. Thank you for joining me today.
My pleasure. Having me, anyone listening to
this show for the first time? So perhaps drawn to it, due to
the presence of Pierre. And why not?
Maybe you may be forgiven for thinking that it's just a
podcast about the goons which to anyone under the age of 40 with
maybe only a passive interest in British comedy might be doing is
might make nothing but you know they may likely have heard of
Spike Milligan and Peter Sellers.
And yes it does tend to focus on sellers in Again, a lot.
But what I like to do with this podcast, is to open it up and
talk about comedy in general. So, that's, you know, good
comedy, the bad comedy and and Hilda Baker as well, quite
often. So, yeah.
So, I'm Keen to talk to Pierre and not just about his affection
for the goons, but also, you know, his wider comedy
influences. So am I right in thinking that
you've recently completed a tour with with your podcast co-host
feel well, NG. Yes I was doing a section of
support for him and then so basically that my year has been
to support for filming in the spring, do some recordings and
performances of my show. Why can't I just enjoy things?
Then do a new show at The Fringe and then Autumn tour the old
show again. Okay, so in the Autumn so visit.
So what show is it in the Autumn?
Why can't I just enjoy snacks? Yes, yes.
Oh, that's what I'll be taking around the place all over the UK
and Dublin. So it's a bit odd to have to
sort of is like an eight-week interlude where I'm working on a
new different show and then back to the old classics from from my
Soho run january/february, but they were Brilliant.
Okay, okay. And during the a little sort of
the Preamble before I press record you touched on something,
and I just want to bring this bring this up now because I'm a
little bit older than you Pierre.
I've, you know, I've been looking on Wikipedia and and fwi
W it's quicker to say, for what it's worth, just bringing myself
into this. Possibly that one of the
biggest, if not the biggest turning Point in my life, okay?
My life changed irrevocably in the last week of January 1991.
All right? Okay.
And I believe that, that was the beginning of your life in that
week. Was that right?
Born January 91. Yes.
Okay, okay. No, because that's when I left
New Zealand, which is where I was born and brought up and I
flew to Belfast to live and and sort of I completed my schooling
over there and that was. And that was really my
introduction to the UK. When I was 16 and I've with a,
with a brief year going back, I've lived in the UK of a sense
and my life completely changed and it was such a, when you
someone from outside of the UK, but who kind of, I guess you're
the same. You feel you're partly British
because of its your family's Heritage when you actually come.
Here. And it's you're in this kind of
weird Middle Ground where you're sort of absorbing the culture in
a detached fashion. Would you say?
Yeah, they, you're sort of your sort of halfway there but but
halfway not, they've got a category for you.
That's not the same. If you were from even from the
USA, it would be different. Hmm.
You're seen as sort of Family but extended family.
You're like my kind of my cousin because you're sort of, you
know, anglophone white Empire Vibes, but also you're still
different and we still don't like you at sports.
Yeah. It's family that you only really
want to see it Christmas. Yeah.
Not even, not even then. Yeah.
Mmm, because you were born in. Of course, you were born in
Johannesburg. Yes.
And I believe he moved to the island men.
When you were what, six seven? Yeah, just before I turned 7,
so, sort of birthday quite soon on arrival.
I don't know how you found the sudden reversal of the seasons,
but I had a summer birthday in South Africa and then I depths
of winter birthday and in the UK.
Yeah. Just right.
Because I was, I was it was middle of summer.
January 91 got on a plane in Christchurch arrived, eventually
in Belfast. And it was snowing, it was eyes
on stalks basically. Yes, exactly.
And I think, what's often strange, if you are an
anglophone, white Colonial for want of some sort of better term
is that, you are foreign to the UK more than you imagined when
you weren't there. So, in Africa, if you speak
English and are white, even if you have a name, as European as
mine, you know, piano Delhi. You are referred to as an
Englishman and you would describe yourself as an
Englishman and you're not, but you sort of are.
And and you all your reference points for Britain or England or
whatever they're accurate. They are true.
But there were no flee out of date.
They're very old-fashioned. Oh yeah.
You've got but they just William books, or whatever in your mind.
And everyone's like you watch Teletubbies, I fuck you talking
about. Well, that's it because in, in
Christchurch, which is the biggest big city to where I grew
up, people used to say it's like, it's like England, but 30
years ago. Yeah.
You know and yours yours would
have been a more clear time travel analog because obviously
South Africa. So so mixed up with with
different languages and cultures that I mean parts of the English
that I spoke were loanwords from Afrikaans a couple of from Zulu
even. Not well, God, where you just
sort of go, is that not saying for that here and even your
English is out of date. I mean, when I moved in the late
90s and I was a little kid, I didn't realize in the UK where
they they colored a utility room, you know, they're washing
machine and stuff. Yes, I was saying scullery,
right? That's the word friend.
South Africa's people were like scullery this Downton Abbey
vocabulary for the Suburban home.
Very strange. Yeah, and what about your accent
because mine? I always, I was considered where
I grew up, which was a small town.
I was considered Posh. Yeah, I was considered the Posh
kid because my mother bought me up to talk relatively properly,
you know? Yes.
And as since I've been living over here 30 plus years, my
accent has changed. Definitely become more.
I guess. British the, the more abrasive
edges have been chiseled off. What about your accent because
You don't sound, I can hear it. But you know it's I don't want
to sound defensive but the South African accent gets a bit of a
bad press for being a bit quite quite coarse and grating
Weatherly. This is the thing is that often
when people say like oh, he's got a strong accent, what they
mean is he's off recants. And that's not even the same
ethnic group as me. So it's a bit like someone
going, you know, sort of talking about a Scottish person and
saying, oh, he's English accents.
Really strong, not like yours. He's sitting over again of us a
minute. You clearly know they can't hear
the difference was. I could tell you my question, I
asked British people when they say that, as I say, they say,
oh, I've got a South African friend at work or whatever, and
he's got a really strong accent, not like yours.
And I say, okay, does your role is ours?
And if they say yes, I do rise Afrikaans, that's why.
That's my little test. So, I've had to develop that it
mind changes. I mean, sometimes there's not
even a trace of it, and people can't tell at all at least, so
they say, and sometimes. So they're testing some sort of
fire alarm in my building, just in case.
Okay, this happened is a test. Yeah, yeah.
Well, this is the way I want to go.
And sometimes people say, oh, it's so strong and did a that it
changes. I mean, because we're speaking
now it'll be much less than if I speak to my parents.
It's a to my cousins or if I go back I mean it comes roaring
back full strength. I don't know if you find that
with with other kiwis. Yeah.
I was back in January actually and I don't go bad very often
had to go back for a funeral. No, I'm sorry about that.
It was expected. But but yeah, well my because I
always sort of, as I say a kind of compared to my siblings and
whatnot. I had a, my accent was always a
bit all the way I spoke was always a bit highfalutin.
Yeah, I mean, so so, but funny enough when I went to Belfast So
I was 16 and I went to this school, this new school and and
it was very early 90s. So Australian soaps were all the
rage and I thought II can I could use this to my advantage
because they don't know the difference between Australian
accents and kiwi excess call. So so I for a time, I was
putting it about two, maybe stupid girls that I had been the
act of the original actor that played Hayden and Home and Away.
The one that got Got one got sacked in the first two weeks.
No way that because other know where to check.
No internet. Yeah.
And the accent just to then the X and just sounds the same.
Yeah, why not? I mean, I got accused of being
Pasha, a great. I had a thick Isle of Man accent
for about three or four years and because I really do ya.
Got ya really, really serious one.
I was accused of being partial up because, obviously, in South
Africa we have long as, you know, castle and grass that in
the UK, especially up north Northern England, which the Isle
of Man culturally is that that's very high.
Falutin that's very Posh to say to say castle and grass that
have castle and grass. Yes.
So then take, they don't, they
weren't too pleased about. That was, I didn't know what
Posh really meant because class in the UK, you know, we could
talk for their Thousand Years about class but it's not just
money or Wayne Rooney would be Posh and he's not, he's got
plenty of money. It's rights of other secret
rules hidden things, your name. So, it's French, French Italian.
That's exactly how did that come about?
I was on my dad's side, the Italian part moved to South
Africa in the late late 1800s. I think they they they moved on
mass with another family. Well presumably Italy was in
chaos at that point, who knows? But mmm.
So they move this, that's the Italian sort of paternal line
thing. And then the French name, my
grandmother was Afrikaans and there's a lot of French names in
South Africa because the afrikaners essentially a mixture
of the Dutch people from the 1600s, but a lot of low
countries French Protestants, the huguenots from France.
Hmm, and that's why I like the South African sports teams are
always got, you know, Francois duplicity and Andre so-and-so
and a few years and As well. So it's quite common.
Okay. Okay.
I had been vandevelde on last year.
Oh yeah, you know, bed and he, he said to me, you know, you
should get Pierre on and he said, he said that one of the
things that sticks in his mind about you as it you used to say
that whenever you saw a you kept or I suppose it laterally, a
brexit party slogan, all campaign or or party political.
First you always imagined many Bannister crying little girl
murdered in our beds. Yes, that's exactly right.
I tweeted that once and I only about four people got it but
they really got it. Well, I suppose the modern-day
equivalent of that is Helen Lovejoy from The Simpsons.
Yes. Think of it.
Like anyone, would anyone think of the children?
Yeah, the powers that be have decided to actually increase the
size of fishermen's meshes thereby.
Juicing their income by 40%. That's what you do here.
That's why we're going. That's it, I've had no idea.
As I said Ben Van de Velde. Who was a guest on the show.
He obviously, highlighted to me that you were quite keen on the
goons and a vet and the couple of months ago, and I must have
been, I don't know whether you were interviewed on.
Something or I had a Spate of people messaging me, you know,
listens to the show saying, why don't you get Pete try and get
piano Valley on? Yeah, I mentioned the goons on
something. I can't remember.
Okay, I always always mentioned them whenever there's the, the
inevitable question about influences or First comedy or
something like that. Yeah.
So they're always popping up in in in what I, what I churn out
for publicity, see, it's fair to say, most of my Because I'm, I'm
still in my 40s just, okay, most of my guests are around my sort
of age that people in the 40s. Late 30s, 40s 50s.
You know, and most of them were too young to have heard the
goons first time round but they got into it through parents
through the dead. Usually, you know, and I'm just
wondering, you know, it was it was it, your dad was it was it
your mum, even? How did you How did you discover
the goons? So when we moved to the Isle of
Man I sort of maybe I actually ended up turning seven before I
started school but in South Africa.
You start school when you the year, you turn seven.
So I've never been to school but I was coming in three years late
to the British system right away.
I had to get pretty keen on on the library and I did.
And the first book I read from the port, Aaron tiny local
library, on the Isle of Man was a horrible histories book.
About dark nights and dingy castles.
That's what it was called. And so this library is very old
school, small sort of Village Library, and at some point, I
sort of came to the attention of the librarian.
When I was there with my mum, and I was looking at some
cassette tapes. That's which is how early 90s
this the library story is. Yeah.
And they have this kind of shelves of cassette tapes, you
could take out and the librarian said, oh those all of those are
the goons my my husband loved them when he was a kid.
And I remember that interaction and I remember that was when I
took them out of the library to get these goon cassettes by
coincidence and I don't think my dad had mentioned that but my
dad and his brother would listen to the goons.
When they were young in South Africa, they would listen to the
international edits on the World Service sure which were removed.
They removed all the topical stuff because it would have just
been gibberish. Yeah.
Well they remove topical stuff and also later on because It
would, I won't bore you with the details, but there was a second
set of edits if you like. Yeah, if you want in the 60s
where they removed, a lot of racially insensitive stuff.
Yeah, I think that must have been what the ones they were
hearing. Especially if there was an early
early to mid 60's. But yeah.
So I came home and my dad knew what they were all about, and my
Uncle Allen as well. My mum stepbrother, he was a
huge fan of the gun. So whenever I saw him, I would
torture him by talking to him about the Goons.
A weird little nine-year-old or whatever.
Yeah, but I just kind of sast and I definitely listen to
everything that the cassettes and the library had to offer.
was this the first comedy you would really exposed to then I
was sort of aware of Comedy through TV and the sense of like
The Simpsons or likes of sitcom a kind of kid stuff and my dad.
I don't know if my dad at that point had introduced me to the
Pink Panther. So I sort of knew who Peter
Sellers was or I would have found out through the Pink
Panther quite soon after not sure that it's definitely the
first comedy that I discovered on my own or felt like I had
some ownership of it. And what was it about?
Can you, can you remember? Was it just the funny voices,
was it? When you can't say, it was the
tightly plotted storylines, but what was it about?
What was it about it? The sort of caught your
imagination, the silly voices, obviously were great.
And also just the fact that like, a lot of the comedy in the
goons is quite Looney Tunes. I mean, you don't have to be too
old to understand the fact that it's it's very silly that you
know the telephone sounds like bagpipes or there can't be
anyone at the door because you just let them in, you know, the
absurdism of it's very very very digestible for kids more so than
some sort of like high-faluting satirical shown might be Sure.
Yeah but I just got upset. I mean I listen to this things
till they wore out. Yeah.
Can you remember the first one you heard for show you how it I
think. I think it was Napoleon's piano.
I was looking for a man who might specialize in piano
robberies from the Louvre good evening.
You are looking for a man who might specialize in piano
robberies from tile roof. How do you know I was listening
on the radio and I heard you say, sit down.
No, thank you. I'm naked God come Two glasses
of English Port. Type cooking Sherry we have a
gorilla. No thanks I only smoke baboons.
Good job. Yes baboon show.
Thank you thank you. And now back to the prom yes
this piano we must steal is the one Napoleon played at Waterloo.
Stay here. That will be a very sticky job.
Why? It's just been varnished.
The German joke. Yeah, the English silence and
say what to do, then go up. Because obviously, this was from
the library. These were tapes from the
library. Yeah, there's that.
There's only a finite number of commercial releases out there.
Did you, did you go on to sort of try and I mean, they were
repeated the word repeats in the 90s on Radio 4 on the radio to.
But did you do any budget? You have you really came of age
in the late 90s, didn't you? Yes.
Oh so were you trying to Source shows elsewhere as well and get
as much stuff as you could? I sort of I didn't quite
understand that things were available in other places and I
mean the Isle of Man is a very small place and so I sort of
very early on not quite accurately accepted that like oh
you know, You take what you can sort of find locally in these
small shops or whatever. So yeah, I thought it sort of
didn't until I was older and to be fair, I mean I was very
computer literate from a young age but stuff like YouTube and
even a lot of the more venerable goon show sides.
Especially with regards to audio clips and stuff.
They weren't really up and running till I mean YouTube
2005. So there's a gap of a few years
there, but once I realized, oh my God, you know, these things
are on the these things are on the iTunes store.
So I would like buy them there, of course.
Yeah. So I'm going to, I don't want to
keep banging on about your age compared to mine.
But yeah. I'm a generation older than you
so. So it was it was much more
analog back in my day, you know, in terms of just had to wait for
it to turn up on the on the radio and get your cassette tape
and tape it. Yes.
And was it like did this then open you up to did you then go
looking for other comedy and maybe radio comedy on cassette
or did it like, python for example, did you seek out
python? Oh yeah.
I mean not, I don't even know if consciously but they're not.
Yeah massive obsession with python very, you know, evolution
of humor naturally followed. I was always a big fan from
whenever I first came across him somehow of Eddie Izzard who also
is a big goon. You know, nut.
And actually you know that's another Contender early first
listeners Phantom better, putting her lab Excellency of
course, right? Okay, this is our desire, grew
up and Excellence here, then yes he did.
Yes. So yeah, Monty Python and then
is a man, just generally becoming a lot more aware of
stand up at that point. Oh, the sketch shows that were
on TV and this is the this is the naughties we're talking
about in the UK. So It was the boom time for
sketch, shows, Mitchell and Webb Armstrong and Miller and then
you got Peepshow, blah, blah, blah, blah, all the great stuff
and then just getting really into stand-up through sort of
satellite TV and now YouTube you really coming to the fore in
terms of finding clips of stuff yet, Kevin's family Nichols.
Your faithful old. Hairy English tummy, 10 years
you've waited here rather than dissipated last order.
I gave you. Stay here till I came back.
I said to him, he waited alone in the desert.
He never wavered from his duty, he kept the name of servitude,
shining, bright heckles, hackles, you upheld the flag.
You will ever question the order.
You stayed out here alone you without Food and water.
You will have money you without anything to stop.
You walking away. You you idiot.
What what? What me?
An idiot. Let me put this ball in town.
I'll tell you what interests me about the goons is that every
single person involved in the Goon show was ex-military or
World War Two veteran, to some degree.
Yeah. And the thing you find
especially in humor from as close to the to the wall as
possible is that it is completely acceptable to make
fun of the idea of major blood markers, and avaricious,
egotistical coward, and all the sort of privates not wanting to
get out of bed and do things and they may be feeling a bit lazy
or they don't want to, you know, people getting blown up and
stuff it's all completely acceptable because it was Not
just real to these guys, but these guys were conscripted so
they didn't want to be there. And when I was growing up, a lot
of you know I mean my because of the law in South Africa under
apartheid there was conscription and you know, if they if you
didn't just go along and suffer for nine months, doing jumping
jacks in the bush. They'd stick, stick you in jail
for a few years and ruin your life.
So people just need it whether they wanted to or not.
And so, I grew up around, you know, family friends.
My dad, a lot of people who'd had to do military service who
didn't want to and they had lots of jokes that were very similar
and what I find now is that The more and more your military
becomes volunteers and so forth with risk getting slightly
American in that kind of you know the military is sacred.
And God forbid, anyone should tell any funny jokes about it,
kind of territory But the irony is that I've Got Friends in the
military or her ex military and they tell all the same jokes but
it's sort of panicked civilians who are desperate to level this
kind of To my mind, very American sort of sacral respect
on our brave boys and so on and look, there's an element of
that. That is true and is necessary
and is good. But I think that's something
that's so interesting about the goons is that you could never.
It would be a lot harder to do jokes about the military in that
way. Now partially, because we're
slightly getting a bit American and sacred about it, but also
partially because look, the public have no idea what a drill
sergeant is. They don't know anymore.
Tester a tree and with, I mean, even you know, some mothers do
know it ain't half hot mum. Yeah.
I mean the drill sergeant sort
of character in that that only worked because 50% of the
population, all the men at some point had been bullied by a guy
who looked and sounded like that.
Absolutely right. That's that's it because if you
look in the 50s into the 60s, and into the 70s, as as with it
ain't half hot mum British films, British TV, it was full
of Military-based comedy and the martyrs as well just the army
sketches. Well yes, it's in the 60 in the
50s, you've got carry on Sergeant, which is the first
carry on Phil. You've got the army game, which
is what have itv's first sitcoms, and yeah, python Graham
Chapman dressed up as a general coming on and saying, welcome
on. This is, does it become do silly
Over a silly silly silly, right? Get on with it, get on with it.
The, the camp drill sketch with, they're all doing very sort of
Camp theatrical, drill. Yes, absolutely.
And, and yeah, so many so much of it was because like you say,
people grew up or people, you know, many of that generation
had served and and you and and if they hadn't served during the
war, they're done national service, until it was abolished.
Yeah. And and I had a guest on the
writer Christopher Douglas last year and he made an observation
which I thought was very very Interesting about 50s British
comedy or British comedy in the 50s.
He said it was that generation of comics.
It was it was the only decade in British comedy that didn't
really have officer class comedy.
Yeah, and I went to, I don't want to sound embarrass you or
anything, but you, you were, you vice president of Footlights or
president Footlights? Which I was I said I said, okay
but yeah, obviously if we get into the 60s of late 50s into
the 60s, you've got cook and more and yeah Bennett and
Jonathan Miller. And then of course, Python and
subsequently not the, nine o'clock news and all that sort
of the the the Oxbridge comedy that that kind of dominates
British comedy for. Well, it's still.
Do you think it still does to this day or any sort of No, no,
you're treated like a bit of a bit of a weird Relic.
If people find out you've done it, right?
There's some people still around the last big hurrah refer to
sort of Oxbridge e style comedian.
I don't know, I mean Simon, but it is between us and I was like,
well yeah, Mitchell and Webb. But they're Mitchell and Webb
there. Yeah, they're sort of mid 90s,
graduates. It's Simon bird a bit later and
these days, if you see anyone who went through Footlights
little, because there are, there are, there are stand up like,
like Phil Wang, or I hear Shah. And they're sort of not not what
you'd expect from Oxbridge in the sense that they had, you
know, they non-white or they from a more working class or
lower middle class background State educated.
Like, I hear, And people are often surprised to learn that
those guys, huh? Those guys are Oxbridge because
you know and I had zits just Stephen Fry being churned out
like a robot like thousands of times.
Yeah. Well yeah, I suppose in the 80s
you had the more red brick University like the emails and
oh yeah. And elton's and whatnot.
But do you think it's cyclical? Do you think that, The the
Oxbridge comedians will rise again or is it is that dead now?
I think it would be cyclical in the sense that Cambridge even
since I was there has massively upped its proportion of state
school students and generally to be honest, the kind of kids who
go there who are attracted to Comedy especially these days.
They don't tend to be the sort of, you know, Sebastian tufton
types as much. Chaz, you think, Hmm.
The ones who sound pasha's? Tend to be the guys who you find
out are the sons or grand Sons, or daughters or granddaughters
of like, a proper sort of 70s love.
He's, you know, yeah. From London.
So their passion the sense that they're kind of artistic
establishment, but they're not Parshin, the sense of owning,
you know, land or horses or something.
They, they their passion the That they are connected.
But they tend to have parents who spent all their money on
tantric dreaming courses in the 80s or something, you know.
Okay. Yeah.
So that's it's quite a mix. I think it'll come back purely
because slowly, but surely Oxbridge is, is becoming very
representative or much more representative.
It's going to take awhile that at the change that going in
15-20 years. They'll be some massive
Resurgence. Yeah, yeah.
So, when did When did you decide that you wanted to take on
Comedy as a career? I was talking to a guy who used
to be a member of the sketch act called the pain who they are.
A rare example of the slightly more stereotypical Footlights
success from from Recently, they're sketched double act.
Now they've been sort of rent Radio 4 Series.
They did a West End run. Sort of very classic silly
sketches anyway. They used to be a trio and I was
talking to one of them in second year and he said, The nice thing
about the student gigs at Cambridge, was that we had
professional comedians would come and host them, because we
would the, the student bars would offer them, you know, gig
level money hundred hundred fifty quid, and it would be a
young audience. And so I met when I was still a
student I met and, you know, nitish Kumar said gamble, James,
a Caster, who, you know? Now that's a very famous list of
people but back then it was just some guy, but they would tell me
like, No like this, this is our job, you know, we do this, this
you can get money like this. And this is how you do it and
blah blah blah. And I was saying to this guy,
oh, I might give that a go actually and he said, well,
obviously, and he said it with such contempt, like, it was such
an obvious thing to say, like it said something stupid that I
went. Oh, that's good.
Actually, that's, it's actually quite a vote of confidence,
isn't it? And I annoyingly in my stand up.
I sometimes use quite weird imagery and languages and stuff,
and I'm getting a bit weird as I get older, but because my
stand-up had to pass muster in, you know, nightclubs or working
Men's Clubs, or comedy clubs or whatever you can't.
I always felt like I couldn't go to strange and you don't see as
much of that vein of humor that was so influential on me in my,
a lot of my output. Yeah, I did do it.
A lot of sketch shows. I've done maybe four or five
hour long sketch shows. One of them was the Footlights
to a show, and whenever I wrote sketches, the Goon side would
come out a lot more with sort of surrealism or physical
absurdism. Or just general silliness.
And and I brought a bit of that in.
I think, when I was a writer for spitting image, the recent
Revival, right? Yes, yes.
And so, when I was writing sketches for that, I tried to
bring in a bit of that silliness with.
I pinched some sketch that it didn't get made, but it was, it
was back when The pope was getting all these ridiculous
reassurances from Xi Jinping about Christians in China.
Being treated very nicely and religious minorities.
Generally being treated nicely in China.
Yeah and it was the sketch, the pope went to G jinping's, you
know, Chinese medical medicine, sort of parlor.
So these like fake treatments that aren't real kind of thing.
Like that being the angle. Yeah, and I sort of worked in a
lot of silly sort of bawdy humor there.
I think I was too detailed a pitch.
It's a lot easier just to do a sketch where The Rock has a
fight with Billy. I'll assure something.
I think more appealing. Yeah, head did you weird because
I had L Mariano. Yeah, the show and he wrote some
stuff for spitting image of course.
And He was writing in fact, I think it's I think it's are now
for a live spits. Spitting image.
Yes, involved with that West End.
No, no, no. That's above my pay grade.
I was one of the I was insensitive.
The the face, the faceless Legion sort of levels of writing
for the TV show, writers room stuff.
Al Al was in the upper echelon. He was he was in the officers
mess. I think it was on in Birmingham
for a bit to knock it together and then at some in the West End
now and they're obviously, I all sympathy for them because they
have to keep updating it because things keep happening to Boris
Johnson. Gosh, if it works.
It seems like that's complete week ago, it was all over the
news that Seems like it's completely forgotten now.
Yeah. Yeah, it's the time of
recording. I mean, we had this terrible
tragedy with the submarine. Yes.
But that's, that's taken up the column inches.
But, yeah, the news just adjust 24-hour rolling.
News, is both a blessing and a curse I think.
Yeah, on the society. Yeah, yeah.
And it makes topical writing easier and harder because things
can be shockingly relevant but they like Like like fruit in hot
weather that go off sooner. Yes.
Yeah. And getting back to the gun
show. I mean that was what people
forget and you mentioned it yourself because your your dad
and your uncle would listen to her but it was edited.
So all the topical stuff was was taken out and so I because I
started this podcast couple years ago and you know we're
very lucky now in 2023 that we have access I say we go in fans
have access to Pretty much pristine restored.
Yeah, shows with all the editor stuff, put back in.
And so I'm slowly working my way through the shows and, and
listening to stuff that I hadn't heard, you know, when I listened
to the editor chosen, I was much younger.
So, lots of references to topical.
You know, things that are in the news in the 50s and Milligan in
some ways was a, you know, you could, you could argue can make
an argument that he was without, you know, one of the biggest
satirist. The 50s just in terms of
particularly satirizing, things like, you know, the 1984
television broadcast, which three weeks after that was shown
on BBC television. The goons did a parody of that.
Yeah. And there were lots of
references to politics that were removed.
Yeah, it's specific references to Churchill at Lee.
Yes, the the Phantom head shaver.
They had a Churchill and actually jerk.
Yeah, that's right. Absolutely.
And And and very often these were removed.
It's for me sometimes the most interesting thing about
listening to these restored gun shows is the stuff that's been
put back in. Even if I don't understand the
context. Yeah you know, I mean when they
did The Phantom better, putting her learned Excellency, this,
that's some line and it was, who would be, who would be walking
at, who would be walking a gas oven along Cliffs at this time
of night or some question like that.
And I think henrique run suggests goes lady darker you
know. Yeah.
And I had to look up lady darker no or a darker and she is this
sort of scandalous socialite. Yeah that's right.
And as a comic hearing that joke I mean the audience lose their
minds for it it gets up. That really sharp crack of of
laughter that, you know, you know, when you've really hit and
so I thought well, it must be good.
Whoever lady dog, listen to them.
Yeah. References to people like
Mortimer wheeler and our what was his name?
The rudest man in Britain, I can't think of his name now, get
the bug, me listeners. Will know who I'm talking about.
But yeah, references to people like that.
Which Slade the audience of the day and has that Sabrina
Sabrina. Yes, I had no idea who that was
when I was a kid and I imagine my surprise as an adult where I
finally think well who is that and it's sort of a busty glamour
model, I've no idea. Well yeah but it's kind of like
it's a had to say this discreet Only kind of like to traffic
cones under a jumper, isn't it? You know, it's really weird.
Yeah, but this the idea that the whole time as a kid, I was
listening to like, you know, God what's his name?
It's a Hercules grip pipe thin and his reality.
Yeah Moriarty when he says you know great great Sabrina's /
Tutors or whatever. It's just like No And Sabrina's
measurements. Yes.
A pristine AKO Sabrina's measurements.
Yeah. Yeah had no idea what the hell
they were on about. I was just happy that it was
funny. Gibberish so Christie
measurements. It's Sabrina hits me with my
arms folded. And Gilbert Harding.
That's always think someone someone that one of those people
that was all over everything in the 50s and completely forgotten
today. But now the thing with the
references, this is the thing that really bugs me in modern
comedy as a writer, is that these days and I think it's
because to be fair to them producers and The people who
make shows everyone's freelance. Now, nothing's really done in
house and no one is secure. So they're all terrified of
losing, their completely temporary contract and, you
know, fair enough. But all of these references that
I was listening to that, I didn't necessarily get.
I still learn from them. They still made me smarter and
the same with the Simpsons referencing, George h.w., Bush
or that Nixon and the future armor or or whatever.
It's how you learn. Earn, you understand the world
through comedy that you don't understand.
Because, you know, it's funny. You can hear it getting a laugh.
So you think we laugh? Yeah.
Absolutely. It's such a Gateway.
It is, it makes you actually go out and again, in my day, go to
the library or now go on, just Google it.
You know, ask someone and be part of the world, where is now
A lot of not all, but a lot of producers, a lot of people
involved in this stuff, have an imaginary idiot in their head
that they used to edit with and they sort of go.
Well, I've imagined a very, very stupid person and they don't get
that so we can't do it. And you think is that really the
best way to produce good stuff? I mean it's helpful if you're
trying to make something that is accessible to everyone and
there's a place for that but I don't think you can hit the same
artistic Heights without Some standards.
Yeah nobody you can't make a reference to rash Aman because
an 18 year old and Lester won't know what regimen is?
Yeah, I only know what restaurant is because of The
Simpsons. There you go.
Yeah, that's one of the last jokes.
I laughed at in The Simpsons are because I was quite late.
Period citizens. That that and with I wanted this
is a question. I always ask guests about the
goons. Okay?
So when you're listening to the shows, And we get, we get the
real intent and the next Calgary numbers.
Did you, did you listen to those or did you skip, did you fast
forward as a kid? Hmm, unless they particularly
something about them? Got me like old man, the way he
sings Old Man, River. And one is quite energetic and
fun. Hmm, I would fast-forward as a
kid, but as an adult, when I was old, I would listen to them
because they're, yeah, they themselves were quite
interesting. And by that point when I was a
bit old, I'd gotten a lot more into jazz and blues and so I
sort of thought. Wow I imagine that.
And in fact from my foot lights here, Phil Wang.
Jason Forbes and George four acres.
They were sketch Trio called Daphne.
And they made to series of a radio comedy for radio for
called Daphne, sounds expensive and because Jason is Forbes who
you could get on. This was also a big fan of the
goons, they had a an announcer like, like greenslade with a
booming voice and they had some live band involved.
Mhm. So there was a direct reference
against, yeah. So it's wrapping a bit.
Yeah. Well, I always think because,
yeah, I used to skip very often but sometimes I'd like what The
song it was but you think now, you know, people like Keith
Moon. John Lennon they would they were
teenagers. Yeah.
Thirsting to this, as it went out, you know, show some
respect. Listen, listen to it.
I always, I've always been had a bit of an issue with the so,
whenever there's a documentary about whoever it may be
Milligan, generally, Or all the goons and they want to show a
clip or Play a clip of the Goon show.
They always tend to play the same clip which is the what time
is it Eccles? Yes, clip and I really Tire of
that. I think that's that's hackneyed.
It's horri, you know. And you know, doing it sort of
put you on the spot here. But is there is there a sequence
not necessarily bluebottle nickels.
But is there a sequence that is really dear to your heart?
That you think would make a great example if you wanted a
two or three-minute, little clip to play to someone to sort of
illustrate the goons is that, is there something?
Is there a clip that you would suggest?
Let me see, I'm a big fan of. I'm, a big fan of major blood
knock, I find him really funny. But I guess it's quite
contextual isn't it? Well very often with him the the
whenever he's introduced as oh, here's a Zone theme tune for
start his own intro music and and then you usually get about
30 seconds of explosions to denote flatulence mmm.
And that's actually when I was a kid.
I just thought No wonder, I can't go to parties
anymore. It's no good sir.
We've got to increase the premium on your underwear.
What was that gun show one? Was it the mummified priest?
Or whether they could try and find the tomb of Genghis Khan?
That's the Lost Emperor. Oh that's right.
It's definitely a bit in that I would like ideally I would play
people just like a little Mm, a montage of the little jokes,
like I've just looking it up here.
So in The Last Emperor, just lines like Moriarty saying, I'll
give you something to make you talk.
Take that and it's Egan says a pound note.
I'm English money won't make me talk, I'll just point.
I love that how consistently they have jokes about, you know,
the honor of the English and then just he's asleep.
Right? Well that that's an interesting
show as well because because bike was always pushing and
pushing to get as much into the show that he could that would
get that would get would be under the radar of the sensors.
Yeah the made the BBC sensors because so that you know the On
knows that they were dead a character called Hugh jumped in,
which was rhyming slang and and and you know, even things like
blood knocks. Yeah, farts.
And all the rest of it but there's a few goons shows where
it's alluded to that grip. Pipe thin is gay.
Interesting. Yes sort of oily oily voice.
Yeah. Yeah I think it's in the Goon
show scripts book. That was obviously written in
the 70s. That Milligan makes it clear
that grip pipe is gay, but obviously in the 50s you know
you couldn't be quite so blunt and but in the in the last
emperor show there's a bit where Echoes us guarding grip pipe in
Moriarty and he's got the music pointing a gun at them.
Do you know any more like this? Here's one.
Oh yeah. Quite right?
Was he to get the right feeling? It was close your eyes.
If I close my eyes, I won't be able to see you.
Will you miss me? Yeah, yeah.
I mean I was amazed actually I've just remembered another
reference where It might be the episode where they just, they
finally coin and distribute the term lurky and they're in
Parliament or some episode. Where the joke is that
Parliament is full of sort of useless old duffers.
Yeah. And there's a sort of than,
like, coughing and stuff. And then someone makes some very
slow belabored Point, that's very obvious.
And then some one of them shouts as a sort of MP in the
background. A lot of our table boys at
mafeking, which Yes, which is a boa War reference.
Yes, it's most astonishingly Niche.
Certainly these days reference to make well because Milligan
was born in India. It was cool Sandy's, not South
Africa, but, but he was born in, you know, the height of Empire.
Yeah. And grew up reading these boys
own stories. And well, I mean hearing all
this. Yeah, the only reason that I can
do just Jokes about South Africa or being South African or
anything in the UK is because to a lesser extent, but still to a
massive degree. The British public have
relatively high level of knowledge, high level of
interest in former former colonies.
Whereas, I could not do stand-up about South Africa or Notions,
or stereotypes of thoughts about South Africa in America or even
Canada. They just don't know anything.
They just as far as your kit as far as they're concerned, you
might as well just be from Mozambique or Peru.
They just got they've got no frame of reference for you
whatsoever. They don't know any have no
expectations, if you're lucky they've seen Blood Diamond so
are you would you say that your Glass half, empty kind of person
in terms of you. I'm not saying you're a
misanthrope, but a you generally looking at the, you know, the
the seamy underbelly of life rather than looking for the
positives. I am quite dissatisfied person
but I think that that's, that's crucial if you're going to keep
creating because the second that you're satisfied, I think the
new sort of go well. I've done it now. so, I think
I'm yeah, I sort of I really, really enjoy some very specific
things or under certain conditions but by and large Jama
but a bit dissatisfied but I still do.
I think I think it's better to enjoy things aware of the de
satisfying elements rather than to ignore or discount them and
and enjoy them under a sort of false flag.
Chill feels more and more meaningful.
So when people are coming to see you, you know, in your next to
her with, why can't I just enjoy things?
Yeah. What are they going to be
expecting to see? How do they gonna see?
I would, I would say if I'm, if I'm a grumpy on misanthropic,
it's only in a sort of John Cleese Fawlty Towers.
He sort of way of a frustrated, man, trying to do his best, as
opposed to a - man. So yeah, they'll see.
Some do see some stuff. They agree with him.
And at the end of the show, I answer the question, so if
that's of interest and then they'll get an answer.
So do you guys know the phrase? It's always the quiet ones.
Good phrase. Yeah, useful phrase.
So let's say you have two colleagues Alan and Susan,
Susan, and Alan. So you have two colleagues Susan
and Alan, let's say you go into work one day and someone says to
you today about Susan, that's always the quiet ones.
Well that means is Susan's a bit sexy.
Susan. Got off at someone at the
Christmas party. Susan went home with someone and
a nightclub, whenever I went out afterwards.
Someone found Susan on the swingers website, Susan's a bit
of a Dark Horse. It turns out.
How did you hear about Susan? That's always the quiet ones.
Alan you come into work and someone says cheer about Alan.
It's always the quiet. Ones.
Alan killed Susan. Is gone and the digging it up is
bad. You've been doing bud pod for
how long. Now the podcast only doing three
and a bit years I think. Yeah.
Okay. And has it built up?
Sort of like if you got like a hardcore of regular Sinners.
Oh yes. There's, there's an elite
Legion. Yeah.
Mmm praetorian guard. Absolutely.
For which I'm very grateful and I'm very pleased that because
Bud part is something that me and Phil do without any real
artifice that the people who end up really liking, it are very
sort of Almost by definition end, up being people who we
quite like when we meet them. She's very nice, it's very nice.
It's not not all comedians, like their fans.
So name them name the name, some of them never I've listened to
quite a lot of bad pod, like a mole, but I have listened to
quite a lot and you regularly dropping in references to
Milligan and the goons. Oh, really?
Let's see. I haven't even done that.
Consciously am I? Yeah, yeah, good.
There you go. Yeah, I mean, I think the little
sketches that I put in Sometimes a quite weird and guney
sometimes. Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely voices. And I just want to sort of begin
wrapping up now. And is there anything that you
knows anything else about the goons or that sort of area that
you want that? You want to touch on that?
You haven't had a chance to mention I suppose, I suppose
it's It's it's it's the sort of thing where?
You wish to an extent. You wish that on mainstream
channels, it was, it was easier to get more Innovative stuff off
the ground and sometimes it is, but As much as you can get
annoyed with mainstream channels about the their caution than
their precarious positions, the internet, this the fact that you
and I are talking and making something at all, is where the
freedom, and the interesting things are happening.
So we still haven't use. Just that, unfortunately, you've
got to try and figure out the best way to hunt it down.
So, I mean, maybe in a way Those guys Milligan and sellers, and
seek Him. And obviously benteen.
Yeah. Benteen and, and, and God my
brain today, Eric Sykes, and all those guys if they were around
today, maybe they would just be saying, well, screw the radio
for commissioner, we're doing a podcast.
Hmm. So yeah, I try to be optimistic
in that sense instead of think. Yeah.
I try and Try and find Opportunities to make something
that's like what got you into it in the first place.
But you say it's Democratic now it's more democratic because of
podcast podcast, certainly help. I mean it's still never going to
be fully Democratic in the sense that, you know, if your If
you're the the Second Son Of The Earl of wherever or more
accurately just you know, the the Earl of wherever very rarely
has money. So we better say, if you're the
Second Son of a Google CEO or something, you can just pay to
promote the podcast, get lots of listeners, do this, do that,
whatever. And so, you true money and
position can stop Trump the system and in ways that you
can't plan for, but certainly it's Democratic in the sense
that You personally will not be stopped.
Yeah, you can do it. It who knows if it'll hit or if
it'll take off, but there is no structural thing in the way
Beyond, whatever it costs to get a basic laptop microphone combo,
which is still not nothing. But I mean, it's the least it's
ever been in human history. Yeah, yes.
And I think it's about, even if even, if you've only got 200,
300 400 500 listeners, who regularly listen, that's
amazing. Yeah, because because you go to
a town hall, Expect to, you know, stand up on a stage in
front of 500 people. That's that's an incorrect and,
you know, they keep coming back every week to hear you talk.
That's an amazing date. Vickers, would kill for that
yelling for this numbers. Weakly?
Yeah, yeah. Anyway, anyway, let's go.
Okay, let's get off. Let's get off.
This soapbox PLS in has been a it's been a real pleasure.
Thank you so much. Thanks, it's my pleasure.
Thank you for having me to finally talk about the Goons.
Yeah, I appreciate with not said a huge amount but it's something
that I would urge, I'm sure you would urge anyone who's a fan of
anyone. Listen to this who's not
necessarily listen to this before and I'm not familiar with
the goons Spotify, BBC sounds YouTube, there's that they're
all available please. You know, take half an hour just
to listen to Napoleon's piano or the rent collectors or or Or
even better putting hurler and it's half an hour.
Well, spent absolutely alright, p.m. thank you very much and
hopefully we will talk again sometime in the future.
Absolutely, thank you.