1
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This son, Barbara the morning, 
the Milligan play full length on

2
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the grass, head against the 
wall, his eyes lost in the 

3
00:00:06,900 --> 00:00:11,400
shadow of his cap. 
I think he reflected, I think 

4
00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:14,400
I'll bronze be limbs. 
He rolled his trousers, knee 

5
00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,100
words, revealing, the like of 
too thin white Harry Affairs of 

6
00:00:17,100 --> 00:00:19,300
the leg variety. 
The, I'd them with obvious 

7
00:00:19,300 --> 00:00:22,500
dissatisfaction after examining,
the me spoke out loud. 

8
00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:26,500
Holy God, but had he's dead. 
Hey, he looked around for an 

9
00:00:26,500 --> 00:00:28,000
answer. 
What are they? 

10
00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:31,600
He repeated angrily. 
Her legs legs. 

11
00:00:32,100 --> 00:00:34,600
Whose legs Yours. 
Mine. 

12
00:00:34,900 --> 00:00:37,800
And who are you? 
I'm the author artist. 

13
00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:39,200
Did you write? 
Legs. 

14
00:00:39,700 --> 00:00:41,400
Yes. 
Can I don't like them? 

15
00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:44,400
I don't like them at all. 
I could have risen back legs 

16
00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:46,200
meself. 
Did you write your eggs? 

17
00:00:46,500 --> 00:00:49,500
No. 
Ah, so you got someone else to 

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00:00:49,500 --> 00:00:51,400
write your legs. 
Someone with a good lead, 

19
00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:53,200
writer, and then you write this 
pair of crap. 

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00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:54,400
You're next to me. 
Well, mr. 

21
00:00:54,400 --> 00:01:31,100
It's not good enough. 
Hello and welcome to goon pot 

22
00:01:31,700 --> 00:01:34,200
and its regular listeners. 
Will know, I was obsessed with 

23
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the Goon show and its principles
for a four or five year period 

24
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in my late, teens, and pretty 
much any spare time I had was 

25
00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:46,100
spent listening to the show or 
watching sellers films or 

26
00:01:46,100 --> 00:01:48,800
generally, mooching around 
second-hand shops on the lookout

27
00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:53,100
for books, records or tapes. 
Then I started going out with 

28
00:01:53,100 --> 00:01:55,700
girls and socializing are often 
and gradually. 

29
00:01:55,700 --> 00:01:58,400
I found, I was requiring. 
My goons fix. 

30
00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:02,100
Less frequently than before. 
Plus I was developing a greater 

31
00:02:02,100 --> 00:02:05,700
love for music and a lot of my 
disposable income was being used

32
00:02:05,700 --> 00:02:09,400
to grow a sizable CD collection.
I never gave up on the goons 

33
00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:11,700
completely, of course. 
But I was less inclined to seek 

34
00:02:11,700 --> 00:02:14,900
out the latest BBC released as I
would have been a few years 

35
00:02:14,900 --> 00:02:19,300
earlier and my membership of the
gun show preservation Society, 

36
00:02:19,300 --> 00:02:22,100
elapsed. 
And pretty much that was that 

37
00:02:22,500 --> 00:02:25,600
it's only been in recent years. 
That I have started walking out 

38
00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:28,400
again with sellers Milligan 
seekin, and Benton. 

39
00:02:28,500 --> 00:02:31,800
Dean and Wallah a podcast was 
born. 

40
00:02:32,900 --> 00:02:37,800
But for most of my late 20s and 
early, 30s until kids came along

41
00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:40,600
and ruined everything. 
I was a voracious reader of 

42
00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:42,300
fiction and would read 
everything. 

43
00:02:42,300 --> 00:02:46,600
I could Coleridge was the last 
man of whom it was said, he'd 

44
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read every book, ever written. 
And although a fair few more 

45
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been published since his death 
and was having a fair stab at 

46
00:02:52,808 --> 00:02:56,700
doing something similar, I 
didn't manage it but an author 

47
00:02:56,700 --> 00:03:00,100
whose books, I always bought was
Don't think, oh, he was my guest

48
00:03:00,100 --> 00:03:02,800
this week. 
Jonathan was a huge admirer of 

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00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:06,100
the work of Spike Milligan, 
specifically, his books and 

50
00:03:06,100 --> 00:03:09,600
pakkun in particular, we talked 
about that and a lot more in 

51
00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:12,900
what I hope he will find is an 
entertaining conversation. 

52
00:03:14,100 --> 00:03:16,100
Jonathan, thank you for joining 
me today. 

53
00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:21,000
My pleasure, great pleasure. 
If all goes, well, if this is 

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00:03:21,500 --> 00:03:24,200
going out on schedule, which is 
hopefully going to be early 

55
00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:27,000
November, it's going to be 
literally. 

56
00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:30,600
This, this podcast will be out. 
But you literally days before 

57
00:03:30,900 --> 00:03:33,200
the publication of your latest 
novel bournville. 

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00:03:34,500 --> 00:03:37,400
That's that's right here, which 
comes out on November the 3rd. 

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There we go. 
So, I think this would be one or

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00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:43,500
two days before that and not one
of my more comic novels, I have 

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to say, but okay, okay, so kind 
of state of the nation piece, 

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which leads me but more in the 
direction of tragedies and 

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comedy at the moment. 
But anyway, I mean obviously, I 

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haven't read it yet. 
I gather, though from little 

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hints. 
Saying that recent events will 

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of got quite a bearing on some 
of the themes of the novel, is 

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that right? 
Well, there's a lot about the, 

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the royal family in it, if 
that's what you're yeah. 

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00:04:11,100 --> 00:04:12,600
That's kind of what you're 
hinting at. 

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00:04:12,900 --> 00:04:16,200
So, so yeah, it's structured 
around a series of kind of, 

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Royal moments really like the, 
the coronation the wedding of 

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Charles and Diana the death of 
dinosaur. 

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00:04:23,700 --> 00:04:26,200
Yeah. 
There's there's a little bit of,

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um, intended topicality. 
I guess that's a wide 

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bournville. 
What's the, what does the title 

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come from? 
Bournville is kind of Garden 

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00:04:37,700 --> 00:04:42,300
City suburb of Birmingham, 
whether we're Canterbury has 

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00:04:42,500 --> 00:04:45,900
always had its Factory. 
And it was where my mother was 

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born and grew up and, and the 
book is kind of further. 

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00:04:51,700 --> 00:04:55,400
The, the main female protagonist
of the book is based on my 

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00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:58,300
mother who died during lockdown.
So it's a celebration of her 

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Life as much as it is a kind of 
story of the country from from 

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1945 to 2000. 
Okay, okay, yeah. 

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Because I at first, I thought it
may be part of the Benjamin 

85
00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:17,500
Trotter Saga. 
Well, it's about a family who, 

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00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:20,600
who actually cousins of the 
Trotters. 

87
00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,000
Okay. 
So one of the Trotters Paul does

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00:05:24,300 --> 00:05:28,400
does make an appearance in the 
book and they kind of talked 

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00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:29,600
about Background. 
But they're not. 

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00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:31,600
Then I looked at the center of 
it by any means. 

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00:05:31,900 --> 00:05:34,000
Yeah. 
So you say it's a state of the 

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00:05:34,008 --> 00:05:37,900
nation novel that's in keeping, 
I guess with some of your 

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00:05:37,900 --> 00:05:41,400
previous works, I would say that
I think it's fair to say that a 

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00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:45,700
lot of your mom, okay? 
The first book of yours that I 

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00:05:45,700 --> 00:05:49,500
read was the robotics club, 
which I absolutely adored and 

96
00:05:49,500 --> 00:05:53,300
think I was doing what 2001, 
something like that and okay. 

97
00:05:53,300 --> 00:05:57,000
Yep, 2001. 
And then, I remember going on a 

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00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:00,000
cruise soon after I bought one 
of The caliph up off the back of

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00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:05,700
reading rotters, Tomatoes club 
and it's what a car that I love 

100
00:06:05,700 --> 00:06:09,600
as well but it seemed it seemed 
a little bit more if you don't 

101
00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:11,800
mind Miss a little bit more 
vicious little bit more biting 

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00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:16,100
in its yeah satire the real sort
of scathing indictment of 

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00:06:16,300 --> 00:06:20,300
Thatcher's Britain reason it. 
Yeah. 

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00:06:20,300 --> 00:06:25,300
And it's a very, it's very much 
the satirical novel whereas the 

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00:06:25,300 --> 00:06:28,600
Ross Club in the other books 
around it are more. 

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In the vein of kind of family 
sagas, I suppose the kind of 

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00:06:31,700 --> 00:06:35,800
stories of ordinary people in 
the suburbs of Birmingham, who 

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with the kind of big political 
events of the era happening in 

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the background. 
Whereas in in what a carve up 

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the focus was much more strongly
on on politics. 

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00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:49,600
Okay. 
And I know I want to come back 

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00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:53,800
to talk about some eBooks in 
more detail, but I've asked you,

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I asked you to come on because 
as I say, being a big admirer of

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yours but I know that you are 
Our a big comedy fan. 

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00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,500
You grew up watching sitcoms 
during the sort of a spectacle 

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00:07:03,500 --> 00:07:06,100
with the golden era. 
Yeah, 70s. 

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00:07:06,500 --> 00:07:11,100
And and I know you're discovered
Spike Milligan in his books 

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00:07:11,100 --> 00:07:12,900
pakkun and that'll fit with my 
partner's down from the 

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00:07:12,907 --> 00:07:14,700
particular. 
Yeah, that's right. 

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I mean I was some Even though I 
wound up being a novelist, I 

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00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:25,300
wasn't a very bookish child or a
bookish teenager and we didn't 

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00:07:25,300 --> 00:07:27,800
have a lot of books in the house
actually. 

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00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:32,000
You know, my mom read crime 
novels like the Christie and so 

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00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:35,800
on my father would read this big
kind of Blockbusters which were 

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00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:40,000
around at the time. 
Alistair, MacLean laughter. 

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00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,600
Hey, those kind of things. 
It was a complete set of, 

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00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:45,400
Dickens, in our family but 
nobody read it. 

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00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:47,800
It was, it was just kind of Are 
for show like a lot of 

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00:07:47,900 --> 00:07:49,900
middle-class families had like, 
I guess. 

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00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:54,800
And the two things that obsessed
me, were pop, music, and comedy.

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00:07:57,500 --> 00:08:02,300
And yeah, I mean comedy, I 
suppose was something that I 

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00:08:02,308 --> 00:08:05,500
don't remember. 
My dad ever watching much TV 

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00:08:05,500 --> 00:08:07,300
comedy or listening to my radio 
comedy book. 

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00:08:07,300 --> 00:08:11,000
Well, my mother was kind of into
it or introduced me to the 

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00:08:11,300 --> 00:08:14,900
earliest show, really, I can 
remember, I was getting excited 

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00:08:14,900 --> 00:08:17,400
about what we watch the likely 
Lads in the mid-60s. 

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00:08:17,700 --> 00:08:22,300
Do y'all do the original black 
and white series and I Remember 

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00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:26,200
Loving that. 
But then I think the thing that 

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00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:29,800
first kind of really grabbed me,
which was very Milligan, asked 

140
00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:36,799
in a way was Marty filament show
of the late 1960s, which I think

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00:08:36,799 --> 00:08:40,000
was just called Marty. 
I can't remember, it's not to 

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00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:42,200
use it. 
I think it's Marty, so that kind

143
00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:47,100
of zany. 
Deconstructing comedy really 

144
00:08:47,100 --> 00:08:48,900
appeals to kids are supposed 
apart from the else. 

145
00:08:48,900 --> 00:08:51,100
You know, there's a lot of 
slapstick and and speed it up 

146
00:08:51,100 --> 00:08:53,400
film in the that Marty Feldman 
Series. 

147
00:08:53,700 --> 00:08:54,900
Yeah. 
And we all used to talk about 

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00:08:54,900 --> 00:08:58,700
that in the playground. 
The next day, at the same time, 

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00:08:58,700 --> 00:09:03,000
we were, I guess I was seven or 
eight or nine and we were 

150
00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,500
watching, do not adjust your 
sets which was the kind of pre 

151
00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:11,000
python show. 
That went out at T times on a TV

152
00:09:11,500 --> 00:09:17,000
and we will have that And and 
then python python itself came 

153
00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,500
along and I went out pretty late
at night, I seem to remember so 

154
00:09:20,500 --> 00:09:25,000
we didn't really didn't get much
of an opportunity to see that I 

155
00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:28,300
think I mean in my memory, the 
thing that suddenly made that 

156
00:09:28,500 --> 00:09:30,700
show catch fire in the 
playground was the Spanish 

157
00:09:30,700 --> 00:09:33,700
Inquisition sketch and somehow 
or other everybody in the 

158
00:09:33,700 --> 00:09:36,200
playground the next day was 
going around saying nobody 

159
00:09:36,500 --> 00:09:39,700
expects the Spanish Inquisition,
so the only the only, you know, 

160
00:09:39,700 --> 00:09:43,700
show in that Vein from around 
that time that I missed out on. 

161
00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:48,600
I guess was Q5 which somehow 
which went out what in 1969, 

162
00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,600
something like that. 
Yeah, passed me by completely it

163
00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:56,000
was weeks weeks before python 
began for the person's first 

164
00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:59,300
pipe in series is right? 
So, I mean, it occurs to me. 

165
00:09:59,300 --> 00:10:04,700
Now that I was at the, I was 
getting into comedy in a big 

166
00:10:04,700 --> 00:10:07,200
way. 
Round about the time that 

167
00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:13,100
Milligan is influence was still 
very felt but he was actually 

168
00:10:13,100 --> 00:10:15,800
doing much. 
Himself in terms of making new 

169
00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:21,200
comedy apart from apart from Q5 
which which I didn't see. 

170
00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:26,200
So, you know, when I somehow 
started to become aware of his 

171
00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,100
name, may be through Reading 
interviews with the pythons for 

172
00:10:29,100 --> 00:10:34,200
or stuff like that in the early 
1970s the way to get into Spike 

173
00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:36,200
Milligan. 
Really was was through books 

174
00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:39,600
because that's and he wasn't 
much on TV at the time he was at

175
00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:41,000
gun shows weren't being 
repeated. 

176
00:10:41,300 --> 00:10:46,900
But in my local Bookshop, So all
these Spike Milligan books like 

177
00:10:46,900 --> 00:10:51,700
a dust bin of Milligan, little 
potboiler book of bits or a bit 

178
00:10:51,700 --> 00:10:53,700
of a book. 
I mean, II bought all of those. 

179
00:10:53,700 --> 00:10:57,400
Yeah. 
And, and so, you know, my, my 

180
00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:01,800
first knowledge of him really 
was as a guy who wrote books, 

181
00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:04,200
not as a radio comedian or a TV 
comedian. 

182
00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:08,000
So when did you end up? 
Reading pacune. 

183
00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:12,900
Was kind of, there was a slight 
mythology around. 

184
00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:14,600
That's cool. 
I remember this. 

185
00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:18,500
I was at Secondary School by 
then, so this was I was 11 or 

186
00:11:18,500 --> 00:11:19,700
older. 
Yeah. 

187
00:11:20,100 --> 00:11:25,400
And it was a book that grown-ups
for reading and I remember I had

188
00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:32,000
a friend at school, who his dad 
had a copy and he'd said to, to 

189
00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:33,500
my friend, he wouldn't like 
this. 

190
00:11:33,500 --> 00:11:38,500
It's very adult humor. 
And they kind of put me off for 

191
00:11:38,500 --> 00:11:41,000
a long while because I thought, 
well, it must be them. 

192
00:11:41,500 --> 00:11:43,000
Must be food. 
Very clever jokes or something, 

193
00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:45,100
or it must be very intellectual.
But, you know, I didn't realize 

194
00:11:45,100 --> 00:11:47,000
that what he was actually 
telling his son, obviously, was 

195
00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:49,100
that there are sex scenes in, 
it's intentionally, didn't 

196
00:11:49,100 --> 00:11:51,000
wanted to read it for that 
reason. 

197
00:11:51,700 --> 00:11:58,800
So I kind of, I don't know that 
phrase, adult humor, I didn't 

198
00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:01,100
know that that meant dirty jokes
to me, that made, it made it 

199
00:12:01,100 --> 00:12:03,200
sound like a difficult book. 
So I kind of stayed away from it

200
00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:07,500
for a while. 
And then Obviously, I must have,

201
00:12:07,500 --> 00:12:09,800
I must have bought it. 
I don't, I don't remember the 

202
00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:12,400
occasion and started reading it 
and immediately realize, you 

203
00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:16,600
know, it was that it was the 
best thing I had read by Spike 

204
00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,800
Milligan while on me and I 
absolutely fell in love with it.

205
00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:25,400
Was it the because I know that 
when I first read the book 

206
00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,100
having just grown up on a diet 
of the goon goon show, really? 

207
00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:33,100
Yeah. 
And I read pakkun unprepared for

208
00:12:33,100 --> 00:12:36,600
what it was going to be like and
absolutely loved it. 

209
00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:42,300
But what really Impressed me was
his attempt, which was 

210
00:12:42,300 --> 00:12:46,100
successful to introduce the 
himself into the actual 

211
00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:48,900
narrative Spigen. 
Spike Milligan. 

212
00:12:48,900 --> 00:12:51,400
The author is a character in the
book. 

213
00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:55,900
Yeah, I mean I, you know, at 
that stage, I hadn't read at 

214
00:12:55,900 --> 00:12:59,700
swim-two-birds by Daniel Bryan. 
I don't know if that was an 

215
00:12:59,700 --> 00:13:03,200
influence direct influence on 
pacune, the certainly a lot of a

216
00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:06,100
lot of overlaps there. 
I hadn't read through some 

217
00:13:06,100 --> 00:13:08,400
chandi had note about Tristram 
Shandy, in fact, T'. 

218
00:13:09,700 --> 00:13:14,300
So, you know what, what Milligan
was doing with the comic novel 

219
00:13:14,700 --> 00:13:19,500
at that moment seemed completely
kind of new and original and and

220
00:13:19,500 --> 00:13:22,400
really, really exciting to me 
the thing that really struck me 

221
00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:24,700
about it and it struck me about 
it again. 

222
00:13:24,700 --> 00:13:30,000
When I reread it over the last 
couple of weeks, I mean, I was 

223
00:13:30,300 --> 00:13:34,500
reading out free Carpenters 
biography of Milligan and was 

224
00:13:34,500 --> 00:13:36,900
amazed to read that Milligan 
hadn't been to Ireland when he 

225
00:13:36,900 --> 00:13:41,600
wrote Baku. because it has a 
fantastic sense of place, I 

226
00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,900
think, I mean, maybe it's a kind
of fantasy place and a fantasy 

227
00:13:44,900 --> 00:13:50,900
version of rural Island, but it 
really stayed with me and really

228
00:13:50,900 --> 00:13:55,200
appealed to me, you know, for a 
long time, one of my, one of my 

229
00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,500
favorite scenes in books was 
just this kind of rather 

230
00:13:58,500 --> 00:14:03,700
beautiful idyllic image of Dan 
Milligan sitting down in the in 

231
00:14:03,700 --> 00:14:07,800
the churchyard in the sunshine, 
one day with his this lunch that

232
00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:10,100
is Is his wife has made from, 
what is it? 

233
00:14:10,100 --> 00:14:13,400
Stout, and bread, and boiled 
potatoes or something just 

234
00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:17,600
sounded wonderful to me, just 
just the kind of great lifestyle

235
00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:23,800
really. 
And, you know, I think, you 

236
00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:26,300
know, the, some of the 
descriptive passages in the 

237
00:14:26,308 --> 00:14:28,100
book. 
Like the opening paragraph 

238
00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,500
really, really, really well, 
written. 

239
00:14:32,700 --> 00:14:36,400
You know, he was a, he was a 
very skilled writer of prose. 

240
00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:40,100
I think I get that. 
The impression that he didn't 

241
00:14:40,100 --> 00:14:42,000
have much of an education he 
obviously, as you know, he grew 

242
00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:43,500
up in India. 
Yeah. 

243
00:14:43,500 --> 00:14:47,500
And I, from what I can gather, I
think it was during the war and 

244
00:14:47,500 --> 00:14:52,000
after the war that he kind of 
became, he's just started 

245
00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:55,500
devouring Hooks. 
And let me get you get that 

246
00:14:55,500 --> 00:14:59,000
impression because the recovery 
in becomes very is very wide and

247
00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:05,900
in his art books, actually and 
it's not it's not erudite, he 

248
00:15:05,900 --> 00:15:11,200
doesn't come across as a I guess
what I would call the bookish, a

249
00:15:11,208 --> 00:15:15,000
bookish writer, but, you know, 
he understands words and he 

250
00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:19,300
knew, he knows how to use words.
It's some of the writing is 

251
00:15:19,300 --> 00:15:21,500
beautiful. 
You always want to be a writer? 

252
00:15:22,100 --> 00:15:27,600
No, I peculiar for, for a start,
I was brought up in a household,

253
00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:30,600
where there is only one book 
Robinson Crusoe. 

254
00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:38,000
My father was a Irishman and a 
romantic, and he was frightened 

255
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:40,700
of the world. 
And he escaped into this book, 

256
00:15:40,700 --> 00:15:43,800
and he took me with him. 
Is there any book I ever read? 

257
00:15:43,900 --> 00:15:46,400
And consequently, I have all my 
life in an island such bitter, 

258
00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:50,000
ER, and i-i've never been 
touched or tainted by outside 

259
00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:52,400
literary efforts toward, I've 
never read many books. 

260
00:15:52,500 --> 00:15:56,900
I've never been to many plays 
nor have I seen many films, you 

261
00:15:56,900 --> 00:15:59,300
know? 
So I'm rather a freaks. 

262
00:15:59,300 --> 00:16:02,300
The only one you can put on the 
fre K freak. 

263
00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:06,400
Can we pause the recording for a
second while I go? 

264
00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:08,200
Let my cat in. 
Yeah, go for it. 

265
00:16:15,100 --> 00:16:17,300
This could backfire on us 
actually because I'm actually 

266
00:16:17,300 --> 00:16:20,100
alone in the house and he's a 
very vocal cat. 

267
00:16:20,100 --> 00:16:22,400
Well don't worry that's that's a
bit of color. 

268
00:16:22,700 --> 00:16:24,000
Absolutely color. 
Okay. 

269
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:27,400
Yeah. 
If we if actually starts 

270
00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,200
contribution to the discussion 
than that that's who it is. 

271
00:16:30,300 --> 00:16:33,600
Okay. 
Yes I did in terms of the 

272
00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:38,400
experimental. 
Aspect of cocoon, where, where 

273
00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:42,100
we have the central character. 
Damn Milligan speaking to the 

274
00:16:42,100 --> 00:16:43,600
author. 
I mean, there's the, there's the

275
00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:48,300
whole scene with the legs, where
he's not happy with his legs. 

276
00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,200
Yeah, such a great. 
That's such a great scene. 

277
00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:56,700
I re-read novel of yours. 
I'm very, that was very fond of 

278
00:16:57,700 --> 00:16:59,400
the terrible privacy of Maxwell 
Sim. 

279
00:16:59,700 --> 00:17:05,200
Yeah, I'd completely forgotten. 
It's a more or less, a 

280
00:17:05,700 --> 00:17:09,000
relatively straightforward 
novel, until you get right to 

281
00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:10,599
the end. 
I can air out you by the way. 

282
00:17:10,900 --> 00:17:16,000
Yeah, you get right to the end 
and then you turn up. 

283
00:17:17,300 --> 00:17:19,700
Yeah, about that. 
And was that and I know 

284
00:17:19,700 --> 00:17:22,400
obviously there are other 
influences that that you can 

285
00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,000
draw upon. 
But was that in any way 

286
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:31,500
harkening back to okay? 
Um, yeah, I'm sure it was I 

287
00:17:31,500 --> 00:17:35,300
mean, I'd always wanted to do 
something a little bit like 

288
00:17:35,300 --> 00:17:36,600
that. 
Something a little bit. 

289
00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,300
Like what, what, what Milligan 
doesn't preclude? 

290
00:17:39,700 --> 00:17:45,200
Yeah, and with the terrible 
privacy of micro SIM as far as I

291
00:17:45,208 --> 00:17:49,300
remember, That's right. 
I wrote out a very careful 

292
00:17:49,300 --> 00:17:53,300
timeline for that. 
I think it's set in 2008 or 

293
00:17:53,300 --> 00:17:57,200
something like that to ice. 
I wrote down all the bait from 

294
00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:03,000
where Michael was on each day 
and one day, I think he's at an 

295
00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:07,300
airport. 
And I suddenly realized that I 

296
00:18:07,300 --> 00:18:12,300
was at Heathrow Airport on the 
same day in real life and I 

297
00:18:12,308 --> 00:18:13,600
thought that's a weird 
coincidence. 

298
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,900
I could have I could have seen 
him and as soon as I thought of 

299
00:18:16,900 --> 00:18:21,000
that I thought, you know, maybe 
maybe our paths should cross 

300
00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:23,200
once or twice. 
I think there's a reference to 

301
00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:25,800
the fact that he that I the 
author. 

302
00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:28,400
And the hero Max, we'll see each
other at that airport, very 

303
00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:32,300
briefly early on in the book and
then I kind of took that up and 

304
00:18:32,300 --> 00:18:36,200
ran with it in the Final Chapter
where Well, yes, in a in a very 

305
00:18:37,900 --> 00:18:42,500
Milligan, ask way. 
I turn up at the end and kind of

306
00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:44,100
it's the same sort of 
relationship. 

307
00:18:44,100 --> 00:18:45,400
I think. 
Now that I think about it 

308
00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:49,600
doesn't pacune end with Dan 
Milligan dangling, from a tree 

309
00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:52,600
and he says to the narrator, you
can't leave me like this in the 

310
00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:55,400
Lorry to just said oak on time 
and purple socks off and that's 

311
00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,700
exhibit, 10 years of Journey to 
that end and pakkun. 

312
00:18:58,700 --> 00:19:02,900
Once again was lost in its 
unhurried ways, the church was 

313
00:19:02,900 --> 00:19:05,900
restored by a rich cat. 
Catholic father hadn't found 

314
00:19:05,900 --> 00:19:09,100
faith in a new pair of boots the
mute steeple clock. 

315
00:19:09,100 --> 00:19:12,700
Once again, kicked out with a 
new life and the Border posts 

316
00:19:12,700 --> 00:19:16,400
were never rebuilt. 
And to this very day, no one is 

317
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:20,500
quite sure exactly where the 
Border lies in fact, each and 

318
00:19:20,500 --> 00:19:24,300
every character in the picture 
returned to his or her own ways 

319
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:29,300
all except one man, a Roman 
soldier hanging from a tree with

320
00:19:29,300 --> 00:19:31,900
a rusty Organ Pipe. 
Lodged over his head from where 

321
00:19:31,900 --> 00:19:34,200
I came a muffled voice. 
He can't lie. 

322
00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:36,800
Be like this. 
Oh, can't I? 

323
00:19:40,500 --> 00:19:42,200
That's it. 
That's what happens at the end 

324
00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:46,100
of my channel soon because the 
author says, you know, Maxwell 

325
00:19:46,100 --> 00:19:48,300
says, how does it end and the 
author clicks, his fingers and 

326
00:19:48,300 --> 00:19:51,400
says like this and that's that's
it, it's gone. 

327
00:19:51,900 --> 00:19:55,600
So yeah, that's true. 
It's a very, very poor Kunis 

328
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,000
ending to the book. 
Another thing that happened in 

329
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:03,600
the early 1970s around 72 73. 
I think was that they started 

330
00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:05,700
actually publishing goon show 
scripts. 

331
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:10,100
Yes, it should not been 
available before again. 

332
00:20:10,100 --> 00:20:12,700
It all starts with Monty Python 
last post because that's what we

333
00:20:12,700 --> 00:20:17,400
were all obsessed with what You 
know, I love, I love the python 

334
00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:19,500
books. 
I loved the Little Red Book in 

335
00:20:19,500 --> 00:20:20,600
particular. 
Yeah. 

336
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:25,700
And the Milligan books like like
the Dustbin, a little popular 

337
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:31,300
struck me as being in that vein.
And again, I picked up the gun 

338
00:20:31,300 --> 00:20:36,100
show script book the first one 
in the Bookshop and just love 

339
00:20:36,100 --> 00:20:38,800
the feel of it and the look of 
it really and, you know, the 

340
00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,400
cartoons and the way the scripts
were laid out in this kind of 

341
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:46,900
thing. 
And again, my was on the written

342
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,200
but on the printed page it was 
the written word that my 

343
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,800
introduction to the world of the
goons came because you couldn't 

344
00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:57,300
hear the show's back then 
anything unless you bought the 

345
00:20:57,600 --> 00:20:59,400
less you bought the album's? 
Yeah. 

346
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:05,300
It was I think in the mid 70s 
that the BBC actually started 

347
00:21:05,300 --> 00:21:08,700
repeating a few of the episodes.
Probably for the first time 

348
00:21:08,700 --> 00:21:10,200
since they had since they've 
gone out. 

349
00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,400
I guess. 
Well, they did beat that been 

350
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:16,700
sporadic. 
The episodes played on the radio

351
00:21:17,100 --> 00:21:22,200
over the 60s into the, into the 
70s, but it was more or less not

352
00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,800
given up on, but all forgotten 
about exactly. 

353
00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:28,300
But it was it was the the last 
green show of all. 

354
00:21:29,100 --> 00:21:31,700
Yeah, I remember that. 
I remember that coming on and 

355
00:21:31,700 --> 00:21:35,100
being talked about as a big 
event and I didn't really 

356
00:21:35,100 --> 00:21:38,500
understand what the what the 
fuss was about or who these 

357
00:21:38,500 --> 00:21:41,300
people were except that I could 
see that you know, one of them 

358
00:21:41,300 --> 00:21:43,300
was that guy Spike Milligan 
whose books are like. 

359
00:21:44,300 --> 00:21:47,700
And then the goons appeared on 
Parkinson, I think, around about

360
00:21:47,700 --> 00:21:50,600
the same time, it's really quite
famous interview. 

361
00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:55,200
And again, I recognized, please 
tell us he was a movie star, 

362
00:21:55,500 --> 00:21:59,200
Harry seek him because he sang 
on television and Milligan 

363
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,300
because he wrote these books 
that I love. 

364
00:22:01,300 --> 00:22:05,200
That was the, that was my view 
of him that he was, you know, he

365
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:08,400
was a writer. 
Did you grow up watching sell as

366
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:13,800
much in films? 
Well, any old British comedy 

367
00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:17,600
film that came up on TV. 
I would, I would watch and kind 

368
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,100
of pounce upon, so yeah, I would
have seen him in. 

369
00:22:21,100 --> 00:22:25,400
I'm all right. 
Jack, I would have seen him in 

370
00:22:26,300 --> 00:22:30,200
only two, can play hadn't seen 
dr. 

371
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:35,600
Strangelove at that point Pink 
Panther film came around on TV 

372
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:40,600
periodically but it was it was 
those you know, those Terms of 

373
00:22:40,608 --> 00:22:43,300
his from the late 50s, early 
60s, there was a Prison - moles 

374
00:22:43,300 --> 00:22:46,600
and there was he in two-way 
stretch has a stretch yeah which

375
00:22:46,700 --> 00:22:49,500
which is great in which is the 
Forerunner of porridge and in so

376
00:22:49,500 --> 00:22:56,500
many ways. 
It is, it is and then well 

377
00:22:56,500 --> 00:23:01,800
another very vivid memory from 
from the early 70s mid-70s I 

378
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:07,900
guess because it was 1975 again 
I don't think I'd heard a 

379
00:23:07,900 --> 00:23:13,600
gunshot at this point. 
So, I had heard war two, but 

380
00:23:14,700 --> 00:23:18,400
what I'd read, I'd read all the 
scripts and in the published 

381
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:20,800
books, I bought the book of the 
goons wedding as well. 

382
00:23:21,100 --> 00:23:23,700
Oh yeah. 
She also had some scripts in and

383
00:23:23,700 --> 00:23:26,800
then I went to see Monty Python 
and the Holy Grail in the cinema

384
00:23:27,500 --> 00:23:31,000
and the supporting feature came 
on, it was the case of the 

385
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,600
mekinese battle horn. 
I thought, my God, this is a, 

386
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:38,000
this is a gun show in the cinema
and I just couldn't believe it. 

387
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,000
I couldn't believe. 
I mean Seeing Monty Python the 

388
00:23:41,008 --> 00:23:43,100
holy grail for the first time, 
was one of the most joyous 

389
00:23:43,100 --> 00:23:46,100
experiences of my life. 
I think, certainly in the, in 

390
00:23:46,100 --> 00:23:50,900
the 1970s. 
But to have it prefaced by this,

391
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:57,000
to me, completely unknown film, 
which was so, so funny and also 

392
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,700
so kind of quite quite kind of 
eerie and Atmospheric. 

393
00:24:00,700 --> 00:24:03,500
I felt when I when I started in 
the summer for the first time 

394
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:08,700
and so unexpected that that was 
beautiful and see you know to 

395
00:24:08,700 --> 00:24:15,500
see So This Plane grip tight 
thin and Milligan playing equals

396
00:24:15,500 --> 00:24:17,300
in this kind of thing. 
It was just it was just 

397
00:24:17,300 --> 00:24:19,400
glorious. 
I don't know how dick Emery 

398
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:21,400
wound up in that film. 
I don't know why it was him and 

399
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:23,700
not seek him. 
I'm sure there's a story behind 

400
00:24:23,700 --> 00:24:26,300
that theory. 
I mean, the, the official story 

401
00:24:26,300 --> 00:24:28,500
is Sika. 
Sika was too expensive. 

402
00:24:29,300 --> 00:24:32,400
It's very low budget but I think
he was otherwise engaged and 

403
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,100
Dick. 
Emery had been a few goon shows 

404
00:24:35,100 --> 00:24:36,100
as a kid. 
I was a guest. 

405
00:24:36,100 --> 00:24:39,000
When all right what? 
When 101 of them was Ella, 

406
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,300
whatever he'd turn up. 
Deputize. 

407
00:24:43,100 --> 00:24:45,500
The Forerunner of the Naked Gun 
film. 

408
00:24:45,500 --> 00:24:51,400
So I think, yes, but but it's 
the most successful transfer of 

409
00:24:52,100 --> 00:24:55,900
goon humor to screen. 
I think it's fair to say, well I

410
00:24:55,908 --> 00:24:59,300
saw I started watching down 
among the dead man on TV the 

411
00:24:59,300 --> 00:25:01,400
other day because it was on 
talking pictures over the 

412
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,300
weekend and that's a, that's a 
tough watch. 

413
00:25:03,300 --> 00:25:10,500
I have to sleep and I have a DVD
of Penny points to with Isis at 

414
00:25:10,500 --> 00:25:12,100
the truth. 
Yes. 

415
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:14,200
Which I've never watched I don't
know. 

416
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:18,000
Shit is not worth my while. 
It's a curio. 

417
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:19,300
It's an interesting. 
It's a curio. 

418
00:25:19,300 --> 00:25:23,000
Yeah, none of them would 
particularly those early 50s. 

419
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:28,500
Goon short films or films. 
Yeah, really managed to capture 

420
00:25:28,500 --> 00:25:32,800
the will never manage to capture
anywhere, like know anywhere 

421
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,600
near the the humor of the radio 
shows. 

422
00:25:36,900 --> 00:25:38,300
No. 
The thing that puzzles me about 

423
00:25:38,300 --> 00:25:42,000
time down Among Us, Edmund is 
The shoe itself on the radio, it

424
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,100
only been going. 
Kind of a few months by then had

425
00:25:45,100 --> 00:25:46,600
meant. 
It seemed a better yet better 

426
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,300
yes to be like that seems odd 
that they were already making a 

427
00:25:49,308 --> 00:25:53,200
kind of feature film from it. 
But well, it was I think it was 

428
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,000
the guy that produced it. 
I think it was some there was 

429
00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,800
tax is a tax write-off or 
something in the mistake. 

430
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,500
It was something like that. 
It was what they used to call 

431
00:26:04,500 --> 00:26:05,500
the quota. 
Quickies. 

432
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:06,600
You know. 
Right. 

433
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:08,200
Yeah. 
Well it was certainly. 

434
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,000
It certainly looks quick. 
Yeah. 

435
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,000
And it's not. 
I mean it was it was it wasn't 

436
00:26:13,700 --> 00:26:15,100
Could have been any comedy 
troupe. 

437
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,200
Really? 
Yeah, yeah. 

438
00:26:17,900 --> 00:26:20,100
Nice to see Michael benteen. 
I've been looking for someone 

439
00:26:20,100 --> 00:26:23,400
who said to stall, her walls, do
not a prison make nor the iron 

440
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,200
bars the cage they look look 
into the mirror. 

441
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,500
I guess that's one of the few 
records of his participation in 

442
00:26:32,500 --> 00:26:34,400
it. 
But yeah there's I mean there's 

443
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:38,500
this about three gun shows that 
are terrible quality. 

444
00:26:38,500 --> 00:26:41,400
Two terms of recording recorded 
quality that we recorded that 

445
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,500
day when the show is broadcast 
in the oh, The 50s, the three 

446
00:26:44,500 --> 00:26:49,400
Banting gun shows existent as 
far as I know, all right, and 

447
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:51,500
they're not very good in 
general, not preclude a general 

448
00:26:51,500 --> 00:26:53,500
to benteen doesn't come out of 
the Goon history. 

449
00:26:53,900 --> 00:26:58,700
Particularly well, there's no 
strong record if you like. 

450
00:26:58,700 --> 00:27:00,300
Yeah. 
If his participation in the 

451
00:27:00,300 --> 00:27:02,900
show. 
Yeah it wasn't really until 

452
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:10,000
Series 5 so talking 1954 and 55 
then it moved up again became to

453
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:14,900
show that we recognize today. 
You mentioned about the Goon 

454
00:27:14,900 --> 00:27:18,000
show scripts and you'd read the 
scripts before you'd even hurt a

455
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:22,900
gun show when you were reading 
those scripts, will you 

456
00:27:22,900 --> 00:27:24,900
visualizing because you never 
heard the show when you're 

457
00:27:24,900 --> 00:27:26,700
visualizing these characters, 
will you? 

458
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,600
What were you thinking in your 
head in terms of who these 

459
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:36,100
characters were? 
Well, I I haven't had copies of 

460
00:27:36,100 --> 00:27:40,300
those books for decades from my 
memory is the were cartoon 

461
00:27:40,300 --> 00:27:43,500
drawings of the characters was 
actually by Madigan's that 

462
00:27:43,500 --> 00:27:45,500
right? 
By all of them said they were 

463
00:27:45,500 --> 00:27:47,600
dry. 
All of them, they were drawn 

464
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:49,400
their scripts while they were 
rehearsing. 

465
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:50,400
All right. 
Okay. 

466
00:27:51,300 --> 00:27:55,600
So, I mean, paradoxically, I did
have a visual image of them but 

467
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:57,100
I didn't know what they sounded 
like. 

468
00:27:58,500 --> 00:28:04,600
No, I think I had Seen clips of 
lost control of all, all the 

469
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:06,100
pockets and interview or 
something science. 

470
00:28:06,100 --> 00:28:09,600
So I knew kind of knew what I 
call sounded like, think, might 

471
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:11,100
Spike Milligan used to do that 
voice a lot. 

472
00:28:11,100 --> 00:28:14,900
Anyway, yes, and I knew what 
bluebottle sounded like, but 

473
00:28:14,900 --> 00:28:17,900
apart from that, you know, 
didn't no idea what Colonel mini

474
00:28:17,900 --> 00:28:19,200
sounded like or anything like 
that. 

475
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:24,100
Then again, I just, I just 
remember another thing that 

476
00:28:24,100 --> 00:28:27,700
brought the goons into our 
Consciousness, for some reason, 

477
00:28:27,700 --> 00:28:30,800
the young Tom song was reissued 
around about them, and 

478
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:32,300
Uncharted. 
Hmm. 

479
00:28:32,300 --> 00:28:34,000
That's right. 
As a single. 

480
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,300
Would that be 73? 
Something like that? 

481
00:28:36,300 --> 00:28:38,200
People think say yes is the 
glass going. 

482
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,000
She was 72. 
Yeah. 

483
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,200
It was such a success and that's
what I'd like. 

484
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,000
You say they start, then started
issuing the BBC started issuing 

485
00:28:45,300 --> 00:28:48,000
commercial records, help, ease 
of gun shows. 

486
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:49,300
All right. 
I'll have that. 

487
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:54,000
Roughly 1 e, 1 LP a year, right 
there had been there. 

488
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:59,500
Had been some LPS release 
through Emi in the 60s doing 

489
00:28:59,500 --> 00:29:03,200
shows but they were Edited. 
The music was removed for, right

490
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:04,800
reasons and things, so they 
hadn't. 

491
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:08,000
So yeah, it was really post last
inch of all that. 

492
00:29:08,500 --> 00:29:11,500
I mean, it was hardly goon Mania
but, you know, they had a yeah, 

493
00:29:11,500 --> 00:29:14,700
there's suddenly serve life 
again and so you must have 

494
00:29:14,700 --> 00:29:17,200
appealed to me, because I bought
that single and I remember. 

495
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:22,900
And, and preferred the B-side, I
seem to remember, which was I'm 

496
00:29:22,900 --> 00:29:24,400
walking backwards for Christmas,
I think. 

497
00:29:24,900 --> 00:29:29,500
Um, yeah. 
So, so again, I had a kind of 

498
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:34,500
our role Image of what's the 
goods. 

499
00:29:34,500 --> 00:29:40,000
Sounds like through that song, 
but didn't really get to hear 

500
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,900
the show's until, as I said, the
BBC started repeating them. 

501
00:29:43,500 --> 00:29:47,400
Yeah, I think a couple of years 
later and then I must have 

502
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:51,300
considered these to be kind of 
treasured cultural artifacts 

503
00:29:51,300 --> 00:29:53,700
because very unusually for me, 
although I was a comedy 

504
00:29:53,700 --> 00:29:58,400
obsessive, I didn't some, I 
didn't record comedy shows off 

505
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:02,700
to off the radio or off the TV 
on to my A player normally, but 

506
00:30:02,700 --> 00:30:06,700
I did record all those goon 
repeats and had a row of kind of

507
00:30:06,700 --> 00:30:10,400
see 60s on my shoulder or okay, 
I don't know about a dozen goon 

508
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:15,300
shows on and and listen to those
quite quite frequently. 

509
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,200
Okay. 
I think if I'm right, I might be

510
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,600
wrong here from memory. 
I think there was a significant 

511
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,100
series of repeats in 75. 
Yeah. 

512
00:30:23,100 --> 00:30:27,100
That's that's what I, that's 
what I would have heard a we 

513
00:30:27,300 --> 00:30:30,200
would have, I would have thought
you'd have also been quite a fan

514
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:36,400
of Hancock. 
I am now a big, big fan of 

515
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:40,100
Hancock. 
He would mean again, I guess 

516
00:30:40,100 --> 00:30:44,400
through a records of 
re-recordings of some of the TV 

517
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,400
and radio shows around. 
Everybody knew there was an 

518
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:49,900
episode called The Blood Donor 
and that was meant to be kind of

519
00:30:49,900 --> 00:30:54,000
famous in amazing, but I didn't 
have any of those records and he

520
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,500
wasn't repeated at all in the 
70s as far as I remember, 

521
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:58,900
certainly not kind of series 
runs or anything like that. 

522
00:30:58,900 --> 00:31:02,900
My mom used to talk about him 
and say he The best comic ever 

523
00:31:03,500 --> 00:31:07,600
and told me that he'd committed 
suicide and 67. 

524
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:12,700
And so I knew all that story. 
Well, I think it was a big BBC 

525
00:31:12,700 --> 00:31:16,700
documentary about Hancock in the
early ages on Arena or one of 

526
00:31:16,700 --> 00:31:21,300
those shows and that used a lot 
of long clips from the, from the

527
00:31:21,308 --> 00:31:22,700
TV shows. 
And that was really the first 

528
00:31:22,700 --> 00:31:27,600
time I had seen them and that 
was when way Hancock Obsession 

529
00:31:27,900 --> 00:31:30,800
started. 
So he wasn't on my radar. 

530
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:36,700
In the 1970s even though, you 
know, in many ways he's behind 

531
00:31:36,700 --> 00:31:40,500
all those great characters from 
the classic 76, calm seas. 

532
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:44,000
Yes, he's instantly. 
Behind Fletching behind Grigsby 

533
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,400
and behind original Parent and, 
and those kind of things the, 

534
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:53,100
you know, you can trace a lot of
that back to Hancock and Goldman

535
00:31:53,100 --> 00:31:54,600
Subs. 
Yes, yeah. 

536
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:59,000
I was always more of a fan of 
Steptoe and Son, actually, when 

537
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:00,800
it comes to Golden Simpson, it 
really. 

538
00:32:00,900 --> 00:32:04,200
Lee? 
Yeah, I now prefer Hancock 

539
00:32:04,500 --> 00:32:07,300
myself. 
I like step to obviously, but 

540
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:12,400
but Hancock really for me gets, 
he's a kind of Fountainhead. 

541
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:49,500
A sweet signorina. 
Hmm, that looks delicious. 

542
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,800
How do we throw it up on a diet 
of British comedy? 

543
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,000
My dad. 
Would always sit me down in 

544
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,600
front of the TV. 
If there was a repeat because I 

545
00:33:00,608 --> 00:33:04,300
was a I grew up in the 80s TV 
and Zen was always repeating BBC

546
00:33:04,300 --> 00:33:07,600
and ITV sitcoms from. 
Yeah, the 70s particularly. 

547
00:33:07,700 --> 00:33:14,800
And I remember very, very 
clearly The anticipation and I'd

548
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:16,300
never even heard of it until my 
death. 

549
00:33:16,300 --> 00:33:18,300
My father had told me that it's 
name. 

550
00:33:18,300 --> 00:33:20,200
He said there's this program 
that they repeating. 

551
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:24,900
This must have been. 
When I was about eight that he 

552
00:33:24,900 --> 00:33:27,400
said they repeating this program
and it's wonderful and I want 

553
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:29,800
you to watch it now that I think
back now. 

554
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,000
Thank God, you know, that was 
quite something to put an eight 

555
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,100
and an eight year old. 
He said, it's called the fall 

556
00:33:34,100 --> 00:33:38,500
and Rise of Reginald parent. 
He said you'll love it because 

557
00:33:38,500 --> 00:33:41,900
he always thinks about he always
thinks about his mother-in-law 

558
00:33:41,900 --> 00:33:47,300
as a hippopotamus. 
And so I had all these, I was 

559
00:33:47,300 --> 00:33:51,100
developing, all these images in 
my head is what this sitcom 

560
00:33:51,100 --> 00:33:55,000
would be like what this program 
will be like and and he and I 

561
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,100
would watch TV and I watched it 
when it was, you know, repeated 

562
00:33:57,100 --> 00:33:59,900
the whole series. 
I absolutely adored funny 

563
00:33:59,900 --> 00:34:02,300
enough. 
I never, I never got into Rising

564
00:34:02,300 --> 00:34:04,700
damp because they never repeated
that when I was growing up. 

565
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,000
Yeah. 
I mean, so much depends on what.

566
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:08,100
Actually. 
Yeah. 

567
00:34:08,100 --> 00:34:11,000
Got shown got shown back then. 
You know, I was thinking this 

568
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:14,500
with with Hancock that although 
the They were no Hancock 

569
00:34:14,500 --> 00:34:18,400
episodes shown during the 70's. 
As far as I remember, you used 

570
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,600
to get the rebel on on TV in 
Fairly frequently. 

571
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:26,800
So this kind of slightly I'm 
representative not quite as good

572
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:30,800
as the TV shows feature film is 
what we all sort of Tony 

573
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:32,100
Hancock. 
Yes. 

574
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:37,400
And and yeah, if you know, if 
Rising damp isn't repeated, then

575
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,100
you just don't condone get to 
see us. 

576
00:34:39,100 --> 00:34:42,400
I suppose I always find. 
I think personally that regular 

577
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,199
parrot is this Area. 
Rossiter sitcom. 

578
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,800
I know that David knobs became a
big influence on you. 

579
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,500
Yeah. 
And specifically on the terrible

580
00:34:53,500 --> 00:34:57,800
prophecy of Maxwell's him. 
Again I think which has a kind 

581
00:34:57,800 --> 00:34:59,300
of epigraph from Regional 
parent. 

582
00:34:59,300 --> 00:35:03,000
I think, somewhere in the 
beginning of the book, The Line 

583
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,200
about, you know, he didn't know 
the names of the birds and the 

584
00:35:05,300 --> 00:35:08,500
flowers but he knew the rhubarb 
crumble sales figures for she 

585
00:35:08,500 --> 00:35:10,000
says, we call Stein or something
later. 

586
00:35:10,700 --> 00:35:14,400
That's right. 
That also, And also, I did pick 

587
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:15,500
up. 
I'm sure you. 

588
00:35:15,900 --> 00:35:18,300
I'm sure you put it in 
deliberately to see who would 

589
00:35:18,300 --> 00:35:20,200
pick up on it. 
I did pick up that there was a 

590
00:35:20,207 --> 00:35:23,000
reference, to a Martin Wellborn 
and his wife, Elizabeth. 

591
00:35:23,700 --> 00:35:26,000
Yes, I think there is, I think 
you're right. 

592
00:35:28,300 --> 00:35:31,600
Martin will born an old friend 
of ridges. 

593
00:35:32,100 --> 00:35:34,500
I'm sure you two will get on 
like a house on fire. 

594
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,300
How do you do? 
It's like shaking hands with a 

595
00:35:37,300 --> 00:35:41,100
warm melted. 
Congratulations on your 

596
00:35:41,100 --> 00:35:43,400
engagement was deposit. 
Oh, thank you. 

597
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,800
But please, Elizabeth and I are 
trying to keep it a secret. 

598
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,500
It wouldn't be seemly to 
announce it yet with Reggie. 

599
00:35:49,500 --> 00:35:51,500
Still practically warm and 
they'll quiet not with the 

600
00:35:51,500 --> 00:35:54,900
register practically warm. 
And I think there are two 

601
00:35:54,900 --> 00:35:58,400
characters in it called, instead
of called, yes, sort of been 

602
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:00,200
called Tony Webster and David 
Harris Jones on it. 

603
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,500
They called Tony Webster and 
David. 

604
00:36:02,900 --> 00:36:05,300
David Webster and Tony Harris, 
David Brooks and Tony Harris 

605
00:36:05,300 --> 00:36:08,400
Jones. 
Yeah, yeah, well obviously, 

606
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:12,900
there's a, there's a big 
crossover between the absurdist 

607
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:18,100
trend in David, knobs humor and 
the goons, which I mean funnily 

608
00:36:18,100 --> 00:36:19,100
enough. 
I don't think I've ever had a 

609
00:36:19,100 --> 00:36:22,700
conversation with David about 
about Spike Milligan better but 

610
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:26,000
We didn't have to in a way. 
I mean you could tell what a big

611
00:36:26,300 --> 00:36:30,900
influence he was on him, David 
spoke a lot about NF Simpson, 

612
00:36:31,500 --> 00:36:37,300
the British absurdist playwright
who again the must must be all 

613
00:36:37,300 --> 00:36:39,900
sorts of points of contact 
between the things he was doing 

614
00:36:39,900 --> 00:36:44,900
in the in the late fifties of 
the Royal Court and what Spike 

615
00:36:44,900 --> 00:36:49,400
Milligan was doing at the time I
mean it would be an interesting 

616
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:52,600
PhD thesis. 
Really? 

617
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:56,700
How how the goons crossover into
so-called High culture? 

618
00:36:56,700 --> 00:37:02,200
I guess because there are You 
know, there are overlaps 20 

619
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,700
years ago, I published a long 
biography of the British 

620
00:37:05,700 --> 00:37:12,300
experimental writer BS, Johnson 
who wrote a series of very kind 

621
00:37:12,300 --> 00:37:15,000
of radical avant-garde novels in
the in the 1960s. 

622
00:37:15,700 --> 00:37:20,500
And when I was going through his
archive, his widow's house as 

623
00:37:20,500 --> 00:37:21,800
part of the research for writing
the book. 

624
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:25,000
I was I was amazed to find that 
he wrote goon show scripts 

625
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,200
himself in the 1950s and 
submitted to the BBC. 

626
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,300
In fact, I think if you go to 
the BS Johnson, archive at the 

627
00:37:33,308 --> 00:37:35,900
British Library, you can read 
the script, it's called The 

628
00:37:35,900 --> 00:37:38,500
Welsh harp. 
Great, Welsh harp abduction 

629
00:37:38,500 --> 00:37:40,500
mystery. 
Don't worry really, okay? 

630
00:37:40,500 --> 00:37:44,100
And it's it's pretty good 
actually. 

631
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:46,800
It's pretty good. 
You could, you could almost have

632
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:50,600
broadcasted and passed it off as
a Milligan script. 

633
00:37:51,500 --> 00:37:55,700
He co-wrote it with a friend of 
his who had a, who had a much 

634
00:37:55,700 --> 00:37:58,300
kind of zany, a sense of humor, 
I think than Johnson himself to 

635
00:37:58,300 --> 00:38:02,200
put But, but it's wound up in 
his Archive of the BL anyway. 

636
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,400
I actually, I mean, I haven't 
read any BS Johnson out. 

637
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:09,000
I was aware of the fact, you've 
written a book years ago but I 

638
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,300
did find something that you 
wrote about be as Johnson. 

639
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,600
Several years ago you wrote 
sitting down to begin. 

640
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,100
Your first novel with the 
rhythms of Joyce. 

641
00:38:18,100 --> 00:38:20,500
Beckett flan O'Brien and 
Laurence sterne swimming around 

642
00:38:20,500 --> 00:38:22,300
your head. 
Eight years listening to the 

643
00:38:22,300 --> 00:38:25,800
Goon show having thrown wide 
open the doors of possibility on

644
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,500
to all manner of playful. 
Be construction, what caused 

645
00:38:28,700 --> 00:38:31,400
Don't even have to resent the 
conventions of the traditional 

646
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:33,600
novel. 
Sarah. 

647
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,700
So yeah. 
So on the biography rose up from

648
00:38:36,700 --> 00:38:39,400
something else that's from an 
article that you wrote about 

649
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:43,400
America vs Johnson. 
So yeah, so they are you drawing

650
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:45,100
comparisons there? 
But obviously the gun show you 

651
00:38:45,100 --> 00:38:46,500
up. 
If you mention flan, a Brian 

652
00:38:46,900 --> 00:38:49,300
Laurence sterne, you've been 
chatting with regards to my 

653
00:38:49,300 --> 00:38:54,200
physique Christian Shandy which 
I tried to read and I got about 

654
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:58,900
halfway through and then I'm 
afraid I abandoned it not for 

655
00:38:58,900 --> 00:39:02,700
the purposes of this interview 
by the way years ago the black 

656
00:39:02,900 --> 00:39:08,700
Paige fascinated me strangely 
yeah which best Johnson token 

657
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:13,200
and used kind of completely 
direct borrowing. 

658
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:17,300
Its first novel traveling people
which has a character called 

659
00:39:17,300 --> 00:39:22,200
Henry Henry who is very much a 
kind of Dan Milligan figure 

660
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:27,700
really? 
Would he have red pacune will 

661
00:39:27,700 --> 00:39:30,700
not buy them because it's was 
published in 63 wasn't a good 

662
00:39:30,700 --> 00:39:34,100
time. 
He, you know there is there is a

663
00:39:34,100 --> 00:39:37,500
lot of Milligan desk humor in 
that book in particular, it kind

664
00:39:37,500 --> 00:39:40,600
of, It kind of bleeds out of his
writing a bit as he starts 

665
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:44,300
taking himself a bit more 
seriously as his career goes on,

666
00:39:45,300 --> 00:39:49,500
but his early books are pretty 
funny and Milligan desk. 

667
00:39:49,900 --> 00:39:52,400
I can't see the name be as 
Johnson without thinking. 

668
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:54,000
It's Boris Johnson. 
I'm sorry. 

669
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:56,700
Then a few. 
Yeah, I've noticed a lot of 

670
00:39:56,700 --> 00:39:59,000
people. 
This is most people Direction I 

671
00:39:59,008 --> 00:40:01,200
can't see the named Boris 
Johnson without think UBS 

672
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:05,400
Johnson, but That's just my 
peculiarity. 

673
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:09,900
I think for the purposes of a 
podcast that was scary to record

674
00:40:10,300 --> 00:40:13,100
a couple of weeks ago. 
I was watching the film The 

675
00:40:13,100 --> 00:40:14,900
Great McGonagall. 
Hmm. 

676
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:19,600
Which I've never seen actually. 
All right, you've never seen it.

677
00:40:19,900 --> 00:40:26,100
I've never seen it or switch. 
I must do something about um cuz

678
00:40:27,300 --> 00:40:31,400
I don't do that film. 
Even get released, I don't from 

679
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,700
74, isn't it? 
I think and I do certainly don't

680
00:40:34,700 --> 00:40:36,800
remember it. 
Doing the rounds of the cinemas 

681
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:40,300
in the in Birmingham and 
bromsgrove where I was growing 

682
00:40:40,300 --> 00:40:42,900
up. 
I think it was just impossible 

683
00:40:43,500 --> 00:40:45,100
or very difficult to see for a 
long time. 

684
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:47,700
And I really was, yeah, 
everything is kind of easy to 

685
00:40:47,700 --> 00:40:49,500
see now. 
Is it on YouTube? 

686
00:40:50,100 --> 00:40:53,000
It is but a very, very poor 
transfer, right? 

687
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:54,200
DVDs. 
Not much better. 

688
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:59,100
It was like filmed on a very low
budget than the film was passed 

689
00:40:59,100 --> 00:41:02,200
through. 
The digestive system of a hippo 

690
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:04,700
was on me. 
Yeah, literally dark and very 

691
00:41:04,700 --> 00:41:07,600
difficult to make out a lot of 
the dialogue, right. 

692
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:11,300
The only reason I bought that up
and and I must admit and no 

693
00:41:11,300 --> 00:41:15,200
offense to to the wonderful, Joe
McGrath the director, but he 

694
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:18,000
does have a tendency sometimes 
to get things wrong. 

695
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:19,500
Wrong. 
But he, but he did. 

696
00:41:19,500 --> 00:41:21,400
He supplied? 
It directors, commentary, or 

697
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:26,300
commentary for the film? 
Yeah, he mentioned you by name. 

698
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:31,400
Okay. 
And he said that, he's obviously

699
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:33,700
thinking of someone else but he 
said that you wrote to him 

700
00:41:34,100 --> 00:41:36,700
because there's a scene in the 
great McGonagall where it looks 

701
00:41:36,700 --> 00:41:38,400
like we're to all intents and 
purposes. 

702
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:42,700
It's like a like a blooper like 
you know, Milligan is dried 

703
00:41:42,700 --> 00:41:45,000
during some dialogue. 
Yeah. 

704
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:49,100
And needs a prompt. 
Can't get the the the line rate 

705
00:41:49,500 --> 00:41:53,000
mmm to the extent that they keep
doing, take after take and we're

706
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,600
seeing them do this and we got 
Joe McGrath the director coming 

707
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:59,300
actually onto the screen and 
giving guidance and giving 

708
00:41:59,300 --> 00:42:05,100
advice, and it does look 
genuinely like, it's a foul up 

709
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,500
on ya, but they've kept it in 
the film for some reason, he 

710
00:42:08,500 --> 00:42:25,000
stopped 
But the point is, Joe McGrath 

711
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:27,900
said that you wrote to him about
that scene wondering if it was 

712
00:42:27,900 --> 00:42:32,300
scripted or was genuine and he 
said the answer is it was 

713
00:42:32,300 --> 00:42:37,700
scripted, okay, so that's that's
an interesting answer even 

714
00:42:37,700 --> 00:42:39,200
though I didn't ask him the 
question. 

715
00:42:41,500 --> 00:42:44,700
Okay. 
I'm you know, I'm never having 

716
00:42:44,700 --> 00:42:46,400
asked that question. 
I'm now interested to hear the 

717
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:50,300
answer, so that's that's good. 
We think it would. 

718
00:42:50,300 --> 00:42:51,900
Do you mean take it off? 
William Boyd. 

719
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:56,100
I don't know. 
He's always writing to Comedy. 

720
00:42:56,100 --> 00:42:57,600
Directors are some questions 
like that? 

721
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:04,200
Yeah, you know. 
That's exactly the kind of scene

722
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:07,200
which I've always imagined that 
film is full of hmm. 

723
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:13,900
And you know again this is what 
makes Milligan such an 

724
00:43:13,900 --> 00:43:17,400
interesting figure because you 
know, a year or so earlier 

725
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:19,400
Lindsay Anderson was doing that 
in a lucky man. 

726
00:43:19,500 --> 00:43:22,100
Oh yeah, great fair at the end 
where at the end of the film, 

727
00:43:22,300 --> 00:43:25,200
Malcolm McDowell confronts the 
director and Anderson slapped 

728
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:26,600
him across the face in this 
carving. 

729
00:43:27,300 --> 00:43:30,700
And you're right, it's an 
absolutely great film, but of 

730
00:43:30,700 --> 00:43:33,700
course everyone, Kind of boughs 
down. 

731
00:43:33,700 --> 00:43:35,600
Says, this is Art, this is 
post-modernism. 

732
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,600
This is kind of such a such a 
radical way to end. 

733
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:43,300
This is Art movie and then 
you've got Milligan and sellers 

734
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:45,500
just kind of clowning around 
with German graph. 

735
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:50,900
Coming up with the same stuff 
really and you know what they're

736
00:43:50,900 --> 00:43:55,400
doing is? 
He kind of in an improvised 

737
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:58,900
throwaway sort of way equally 
bold and equally invented by 

738
00:43:58,908 --> 00:44:04,700
think and you know certainly 
that was the aspect that really 

739
00:44:04,700 --> 00:44:09,500
appealed to me as a teenager. 
When I was discovering his 

740
00:44:09,500 --> 00:44:14,300
writing and discovering the, the
gun shows, and it's coming just 

741
00:44:14,300 --> 00:44:17,000
to sort of irreverent and the 
sense that you can break the 

742
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:22,600
fourth wall and the boundaries, 
the formal requirements of a 

743
00:44:22,700 --> 00:44:26,400
Your show or novel are actually 
kind of porous and wide open and

744
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:32,500
you can do whatever you like. 
Yeah, and you know when when I 

745
00:44:32,500 --> 00:44:35,300
did the few years later, 
discover Tristram Shandy and 

746
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:40,800
flan O'Brien, and so on these 
writers really excited me, but 

747
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,200
they weren't a revelation 
because white Milligan had 

748
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:45,100
already done all that so far as 
I was concerned. 

749
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:50,100
Yeah, the woman was yeah, and 
did you have you read? 

750
00:44:50,100 --> 00:44:51,500
I know you read that off, 
Hitler. 

751
00:44:51,500 --> 00:44:53,400
Wow, my partner's damn fault. 
Have you read the others? 

752
00:44:54,300 --> 00:44:57,500
I read that off Hitler. 
And I read Rommel gonna hoo. 

753
00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:02,000
Okay, and then for some reason, 
I stopped, I don't, I don't know

754
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:06,100
why. 
I think I'd I just kind of, you 

755
00:45:06,100 --> 00:45:09,100
know, I was moving on to 
different kinds of devices at 

756
00:45:09,100 --> 00:45:11,800
that point. 
I mean, you know what, I must 

757
00:45:11,900 --> 00:45:15,500
emphasize is that for the first 
half of the 70s, my bookshelf in

758
00:45:15,500 --> 00:45:17,400
my bedroom was just comedy 
books. 

759
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:19,500
There were no other kinds of 
books. 

760
00:45:19,500 --> 00:45:22,800
I had the python books, I have 
more wise books, I had take Read

761
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:27,300
books. 
I had Ronnie Barker's slightly 

762
00:45:27,300 --> 00:45:29,700
kind of creepy books of Seaside 
postcards in. 

763
00:45:29,700 --> 00:45:33,300
Dip it with you. 
Victorian soft porn erotica and 

764
00:45:33,300 --> 00:45:37,700
that kind of thing, and I have 
rows and rows of Milliken, and 

765
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:41,300
goon show books. 
And and at some point in the 

766
00:45:41,308 --> 00:45:43,600
kind of second half of the 70s, 
I must have become a little bit 

767
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:45,900
embarrassed by this and decided 
it was time to get my act 

768
00:45:45,900 --> 00:45:49,200
together or my I sold or 
disposed of most of them. 

769
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:52,300
From then on I was kind of 
reading serious writers or what 

770
00:45:52,300 --> 00:45:56,300
I thought was serious writers 
for for for a while. 

771
00:45:57,200 --> 00:45:59,700
Of course, I regret this now 
because I'd love to I'd love to 

772
00:45:59,700 --> 00:46:03,900
have copies of most of those 
books again but I did read, I 

773
00:46:03,900 --> 00:46:09,000
don't remember much about wrong 
gonna who but I read out of 

774
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:12,100
Hitler, my Potter's down Fallen.
in rereading it again, over the 

775
00:46:12,100 --> 00:46:18,600
last few days and Even though 
what was fifty years have gone 

776
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:21,900
by since I had since I read it 
and I was amazed by how vividly 

777
00:46:21,900 --> 00:46:25,200
I remembered it. 
How many of the chokes have kind

778
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:27,200
of stayed in my mind? 
You know, the Armageddon out of 

779
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:30,900
here. 
These kind of wonderful word 

780
00:46:30,900 --> 00:46:35,100
plays that he uses and actually 
been listening to it on 

781
00:46:35,100 --> 00:46:36,600
audiobook. 
I don't know when he recorded 

782
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:38,400
that but of course it's best way
to. 

783
00:46:39,500 --> 00:46:43,100
I think it's great to have him 
reading his himself and cracking

784
00:46:43,100 --> 00:46:44,900
up at his own. 
His own humor. 

785
00:46:44,900 --> 00:46:49,400
It's a very endearing Sound. 
It's but Spike was often his 

786
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:52,900
biggest fan with the game to his
own material. 

787
00:46:53,700 --> 00:46:57,200
I haven't read much literature 
of the second world war from 

788
00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:59,700
that point of view from the 
point of view of the kind of 

789
00:46:59,700 --> 00:47:02,900
ordinary enlisted Soldier. 
I mean, I would have thought 

790
00:47:02,900 --> 00:47:06,500
these were historically, very 
valuable books because you 

791
00:47:06,500 --> 00:47:11,100
really get taken inside that by 
Recruitment and have a strong 

792
00:47:11,100 --> 00:47:14,200
sense of the, you know, the 
texture of day-to-day life and 

793
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:17,000
what's going on. 
And how people Used humor to 

794
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:22,400
survive. 
You know the kind of incredibly 

795
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:24,900
interesting from that point of 
view quite apart from being so 

796
00:47:24,900 --> 00:47:27,100
funny. 
Like I gather they were among 

797
00:47:27,100 --> 00:47:32,200
the first of the those second 
world war Memoirs where it was 

798
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:35,500
authentic language, no language 
that they would have used in 

799
00:47:35,500 --> 00:47:38,900
the, in the soldiers, mess in 
the barracks and the yeah, he 

800
00:47:38,900 --> 00:47:40,400
didn't polish it out. 
He didn't dress it up. 

801
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:44,500
It was no earthquake. 13 crude 
and and I think I shocked the 

802
00:47:44,500 --> 00:47:48,300
shocked a few people at the top.
Yeah, I think, I think it did. 

803
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:55,000
And again, I remember, you know,
my parents being a little little

804
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:56,900
disapproving of the fact that I 
was reading it. 

805
00:47:56,900 --> 00:47:59,100
And, you know, they're obviously
heard that there was a lot of 

806
00:47:59,700 --> 00:48:01,900
salty language in it, and that 
kind of thing. 

807
00:48:03,300 --> 00:48:07,800
I mean, you know, I get a strong
sense that in writing bakunin in

808
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:11,900
writing those books. 
For that reason because of the 

809
00:48:11,900 --> 00:48:14,200
freedom that the printed page 
allows you, it was a very 

810
00:48:14,300 --> 00:48:18,500
must've been a very liberating 
thing for Spider-Man because you

811
00:48:18,500 --> 00:48:21,700
know, there was very, very 
severe limits. 

812
00:48:21,700 --> 00:48:24,600
I would have thought on what he 
could get away with in the Goon 

813
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:28,500
show itself and then suddenly 
particularly writing the kind of

814
00:48:28,508 --> 00:48:31,900
sex passages in pacune. 
And so on you can he could let 

815
00:48:31,900 --> 00:48:37,500
it rip, I need it. 
And Again, you know, another 

816
00:48:37,500 --> 00:48:41,900
thing that novel writing enabled
him to do is the tonal range. 

817
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:44,900
And that struck me very much. 
When I first read cocoon, 

818
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:48,800
there's only extraordinary 
digression, into the story of o,

819
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:56,400
Mara, who's you to Mary's the 
kind of this girl, who sleeps 

820
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:59,700
around and ends up getting 
custody of the children and she 

821
00:48:59,700 --> 00:49:01,400
comes around and cuts the 
throats in the middle of the 

822
00:49:01,408 --> 00:49:04,200
night. 
And then ends up in a In an 

823
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:06,600
asylum staring at the wall 
staring, at the wall staring at 

824
00:49:06,607 --> 00:49:08,000
the wall. 
I mean, I remember reading that 

825
00:49:08,300 --> 00:49:12,900
and you know this was before I 
read the novel, The Fall and 

826
00:49:12,900 --> 00:49:15,900
Rise of Reginald Perrin or 
Catch-22, which was another big 

827
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:19,200
influence on me on. 
Seventies, that was a kind of 

828
00:49:19,207 --> 00:49:22,200
shock. 
I wear, I thought, hang on to 

829
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:27,000
this is form is that the the 
novel where you can go from kind

830
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:31,000
of slapstick, comedy to terrible
tragedy like this on the same 

831
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:36,100
page that's kind of interesting.
I mean, just disturbing and kind

832
00:49:36,100 --> 00:49:41,500
of disorientating as well in 
some ways, but that was, that 

833
00:49:41,500 --> 00:49:44,100
was quite revolutionary to me. 
And again, the Coon was the 

834
00:49:44,100 --> 00:49:47,400
first because I wasn't reading 
so-called serious novels. 

835
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:52,200
For the time, the Coon was the 
first intimation to me that you 

836
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:56,500
could do that in a novel. 
It was, it was that flexible. 

837
00:49:57,700 --> 00:50:01,300
Yeah, because I'm thinking in 
your novels, the rodders club in

838
00:50:01,300 --> 00:50:04,500
particular, which I I read over 
lockdown. 

839
00:50:04,500 --> 00:50:07,500
I reread that and the closed 
Circle. 

840
00:50:10,500 --> 00:50:15,500
The rodders club is, it's got 
this very, very affecting scene.

841
00:50:16,300 --> 00:50:20,000
So it's the is that the 74 
Birmingham bombings. 

842
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:20,900
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

843
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:24,700
We're and I definitely forgive 
me, I think I forget. 

844
00:50:24,700 --> 00:50:27,200
It's Benjamin sister goes with 
her. 

845
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:30,000
Yeah, boyfriend. 
Just to go as Louis goes with 

846
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:32,400
her boyfriend. 
Malcolm to the The Tavern in the

847
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:35,100
town. 
He proposes to her, just, at the

848
00:50:35,100 --> 00:50:38,800
moment that the bomb goes off, 
where is the rest of the novel 

849
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:41,300
is not the rest of Novel, but 
much of the novel as light 

850
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:42,700
caught end. 
Yeah. 

851
00:50:43,100 --> 00:50:48,100
Yeah. 
You know, well, the, the 

852
00:50:48,100 --> 00:50:52,700
beginning of that for me was 
writers like, like Milligan and 

853
00:50:52,700 --> 00:50:57,200
David knobs in in the fall and 
Rise of Reginald Perrin where 

854
00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:00,200
you have this? 
Sometimes it's a balance, 

855
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:04,300
sometimes it's a collision 
actually of comedy and 

856
00:51:04,300 --> 00:51:09,900
Melancholy or tragedy because 
the novel of the fall and Rise 

857
00:51:09,900 --> 00:51:12,500
original / in which was written 
before the TV series. 

858
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:18,400
You know David really softened a
lot of the novel and toned it 

859
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:20,700
down. 
Quite a bit to turn it into a 

860
00:51:20,700 --> 00:51:24,500
prime-time BBC. 
One sitcom and the second half 

861
00:51:24,500 --> 00:51:29,900
of the book in particular is How
desperately sad in parts and 

862
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:38,200
kind of quite disturbing. 
And, you know, I my memory is 

863
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:41,900
that I watched the first three 
or four episodes of the TV 

864
00:51:41,900 --> 00:51:47,000
series first and then discovered
that there was a book as well 

865
00:51:47,900 --> 00:51:51,000
and and bought that immediately 
and read it. 

866
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:55,400
And so the second half of the 
series broadcast, I was kind of 

867
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:58,400
following it and comparing it to
the book in my mind. 

868
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:01,800
And thinking, oh, he's he's 
taking it in a much lighter 

869
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:04,600
Direction here, but it was 
always, I mean, I love the TV 

870
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:09,800
show but it's always the novel 
that I go back to and recommend 

871
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:13,300
people and, and, you know, I 
think it's it's one of the great

872
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:19,400
novels for the 1970s really and 
isn't isn't recognized as such 

873
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:22,400
because it was also a successful
sitcom. 

874
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:26,500
But it's, I mean to me it's as 
you know, it's up there with 

875
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:31,800
Kingsley, Amos and David Lodge 
and the other kind of giants of 

876
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:37,100
the 1960s 1970s comic novel. 
I've just don't even mention 

877
00:52:37,100 --> 00:52:42,000
quickly Avis. 
But name is he introduced the 

878
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:45,600
character called Martin Davis 
into was it money here? 

879
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:47,300
There is a character called 
Martin a missing money. 

880
00:52:47,300 --> 00:52:49,900
Yeah, that's right. 
Did the unicorns Fine Arts, 

881
00:52:49,900 --> 00:52:56,300
Vegas little not influenced? 
No, I mean, I actually read his 

882
00:52:56,400 --> 00:53:02,700
started reading him. come much 
later in my writing career and I

883
00:53:02,700 --> 00:53:07,400
kind of liked a lot of his books
very much my kind of a kind of 

884
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:12,600
resisted because when I was 
really getting into my stride as

885
00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:18,000
a writer in in the mid 80s when 
you know, when I wrote the first

886
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:19,700
of my books that actually got 
published because there was 

887
00:53:19,700 --> 00:53:23,100
three or four which never got 
published Then everybody was 

888
00:53:23,100 --> 00:53:26,100
reading money by Martin Amis and
telling me that I had to read 

889
00:53:26,300 --> 00:53:28,600
money by famous. 
When people tell me that I have 

890
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:31,900
to read something laughter and 
then I'm afraid I don't watch it

891
00:53:32,100 --> 00:53:34,600
or read it. 
I'm a bit kind of childish like 

892
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:37,300
that. 
So so I didn't read money for a 

893
00:53:37,308 --> 00:53:42,600
long time after it was 
published, but yeah, you're 

894
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:44,200
absolutely right. 
There is a, there is a character

895
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:51,100
in it called Martin Amos. 
And there are a lot of these Be 

896
00:53:51,100 --> 00:53:54,900
a strong sneef Llano briony 
Spike Milligan e things going on

897
00:53:54,900 --> 00:53:56,100
I suppose. 
Yeah. 

898
00:53:56,600 --> 00:54:01,200
You know the story about his old
man when he first read money the

899
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:02,600
first and only time you read 
money. 

900
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:05,600
I'm not sure that I do room 
telling me. 

901
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:07,100
Anyway. 
So Kingsley, game is of course, 

902
00:54:07,100 --> 00:54:09,600
was arrest warrants wide really 
easily. 

903
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:14,600
It didn't have time for for 
pretentious offeree or whatever 

904
00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:19,300
and he I don't think he was not 
impressed by a lot of Martin's. 

905
00:54:19,900 --> 00:54:23,900
Work. 
Certainly yeah. and apparently 

906
00:54:23,900 --> 00:54:27,400
he was halfway through money and
this character walks into a bar,

907
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:30,200
the characters introduced as 
Martin, Amos apparently, Kings 

908
00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:34,200
lives, just threw the book 
across the room discussed and I 

909
00:54:34,207 --> 00:54:39,200
don't think he picked it up 
again, I only ever read Kingsley

910
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:43,600
Amis because I knew he was the 
author of The novel that only 

911
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:46,100
two can play was based on. 
So, you know, it was, it was 

912
00:54:46,100 --> 00:54:48,000
Peter Sellers who got me into 
Kingsley Amis. 

913
00:54:48,500 --> 00:54:51,300
That's a good. 
I think novels that uncertain 

914
00:54:51,300 --> 00:54:55,400
feeling wasn't it. 
Yeah, which I haven't read all 

915
00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:58,600
that, much Kingsley, Amis. 
I've read certainly read that 

916
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:00,900
and lucky Jim and I kind of 
prefer that on certain feeling. 

917
00:55:00,900 --> 00:55:05,200
Actually I'm a big fan of life 
and I really enjoyed lucky Jim. 

918
00:55:05,900 --> 00:55:10,600
But anyway, I just wanted to 
because I'm conscious of the 

919
00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:12,000
time. 
Jonathan didn't do any damage. 

920
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:16,000
I just wanted to very quickly 
when I've got you, please 

921
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:18,900
indulge me. 
I rewatched the other night 

922
00:55:18,900 --> 00:55:20,100
knowing I was going to be 
speaking to you. 

923
00:55:20,100 --> 00:55:25,100
I re-watched the private life of
Sherlock Holmes which I know 

924
00:55:25,100 --> 00:55:29,500
that you have over the years, 
many, many years, many years 

925
00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:32,900
developed, sort of an 
overwhelming obsession with. 

926
00:55:33,300 --> 00:55:34,800
I guess it's fair to say. 
Is that right? 

927
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:42,300
yeah, I mean you know people 
People who are nice about my 

928
00:55:42,300 --> 00:55:45,400
books and about my writing 
generally, one of the one of the

929
00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:47,800
nice things they say about, as 
they say, it's all so different.

930
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:51,700
but actually to me it's, you 
know, everything that I've 

931
00:55:51,700 --> 00:55:54,800
written starts in some way or 
other with something I became 

932
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:59,200
obsessed with in the mid-1970s 
whether it's whether it's 

933
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:03,200
pacune, whether it's regional 
parent or whether it's Billy 

934
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:05,300
Wilder's film, the private life 
of Sherlock Holmes, which I 

935
00:56:05,308 --> 00:56:11,400
first saw on TV, I think in 75 
or 76 or on a BBC One broadcast 

936
00:56:12,100 --> 00:56:19,500
and again found this kind of 
blend of comedy and existing, in

937
00:56:19,500 --> 00:56:23,400
a In this case, slightly uneasy 
relationship because the film 

938
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:28,500
was kind of hacked to bits by by
its editor and cut down from 

939
00:56:28,500 --> 00:56:29,800
three out of two hours and so 
on. 

940
00:56:30,300 --> 00:56:35,100
And I think the balance would 
have been much more even and 

941
00:56:35,100 --> 00:56:38,600
ushered in the, in the 
director's cut when the to our 

942
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:43,000
versions, what we have. 
And yeah, I just love this way 

943
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:46,300
that for the first half hour 
this film makes you more made me

944
00:56:46,300 --> 00:56:48,800
at the time Roar with laughter. 
And then suddenly you're into 

945
00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:52,600
this very involved. 
Detective story for the next 

946
00:56:52,600 --> 00:56:55,700
hour and then for the last half 
hour Suddenly It's all kind of 

947
00:56:56,100 --> 00:56:59,400
tragedy in Melancholy and and 
forted romance. 

948
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:05,200
And I just found that really 
kind of beautiful mixture. 

949
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:07,200
Absolutely. 
Yeah. 

950
00:57:07,700 --> 00:57:09,300
Anyone who's listening to this, 
who hasn't seen it? 

951
00:57:09,300 --> 00:57:13,000
It's a billy Wilder film from 
1970 didn't make any money but 

952
00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:17,300
it's really well worth seeking 
out and it still trying to think

953
00:57:17,300 --> 00:57:21,700
if there's any possible goon 
show connection Between how can 

954
00:57:21,700 --> 00:57:25,100
we draw a connection? 
Well as fix Queen Victoria 

955
00:57:25,100 --> 00:57:26,000
appears in this? 
I suppose. 

956
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:27,900
But I want to tell you. 
I could tell you a direct way by

957
00:57:27,900 --> 00:57:30,600
Peter Sellers, do not play by. 
Peter says I can tell you, it 

958
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:33,600
direct connection. 
Mrs. Hudson is played by the 

959
00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:36,500
sorry me handle my really handle
and I really here worked 

960
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:39,000
regularly with sellers. 
She was mrs. 

961
00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:41,300
Fred kite. 
She was yep. 

962
00:57:41,300 --> 00:57:45,200
Yeah, brilliant. 
Brilliant performance Colin 

963
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:47,600
blue-collar Blakeley, I think 
and I want to take issue with 

964
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:50,100
because I've read that. 
You think that column Blakeley 

965
00:57:50,100 --> 00:57:53,800
is a Two vocal, and strident in 
his performances Watson. 

966
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:56,600
I think he's wonderful. 
Yeah, I think that must have 

967
00:57:56,607 --> 00:57:58,500
been something. 
I wrote many, many years ago. 

968
00:57:58,500 --> 00:58:01,300
I think he's these days. 
I think he's perfect. 

969
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:10,300
There are you, you, you, you 
black out of all of our 

970
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:15,600
unspeakable Fabrications, But 
you have to save yourself. 

971
00:58:16,900 --> 00:58:19,000
But don't just sit there. 
Speaking of that, 

972
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:33,300
well, it's a Jonathan, thank you
so much for taking time out of 

973
00:58:33,308 --> 00:58:36,500
your because, you know, you've 
got a book getting published 

974
00:58:36,500 --> 00:58:39,400
very, very soon. 
So your diary will be filling up

975
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:44,000
with interviews and whatnot. 
So thank you very much for 

976
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:45,400
taking the time to speak to me 
today. 

977
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:52,500
So nice to talk about comedy, 
you know, I mean, people ask me 

978
00:58:52,500 --> 00:58:55,300
about my nephew inferences and I
kind of scratch my head and then

979
00:58:55,300 --> 00:58:59,800
try to think of the names of the
writers who did influence me but

980
00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:04,900
really, you know, none of them 
did as strongly as people like 

981
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:07,400
David mobs and Spike Milligan 
and Dick lemon to needle a 

982
00:59:07,408 --> 00:59:11,400
foreign aid golden Simpson who 
were writing, you know, TV and 

983
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:13,900
radio comedy. 
That's where that's really, what

984
00:59:13,900 --> 00:59:17,400
started me writing even though I
wound up as much. - yeah. 

985
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:21,300
So it's great to go back to my 
source as I think of it. 

986
00:59:21,600 --> 00:59:23,500
Yes, and I've just what to say 
to anyone. 

987
00:59:23,500 --> 00:59:25,900
Listen to this, who haven't 
shame on you. 

988
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:28,300
If you haven't been anyone who 
hasn't read any of your novels, 

989
00:59:28,500 --> 00:59:30,800
I would recommend what a carve 
up. 

990
00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:35,300
What I care about is obviously 
taken from the name of a city, 

991
00:59:35,300 --> 00:59:40,100
James film Kenneth gonna film, 
which I think you saw her on TV 

992
00:59:40,100 --> 00:59:43,300
and 1990 or something. 
Didn't you just kind of squirrel

993
00:59:43,300 --> 00:59:46,500
that away for future use? 
Yeah, that's right. 

994
00:59:46,700 --> 00:59:50,200
It was followed by a terrible 
kind of semi sequel called, what

995
00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:51,800
a Whopper? 
Oh yeah. 

996
00:59:52,500 --> 00:59:54,900
Which features Spike Milligan as
a park keeper. 

997
00:59:55,700 --> 00:59:58,600
That's right. 
Yeah, but that, that's, that's 

998
00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:01,700
a, that's a fantastic novel. 
Very, very funny, very 

999
01:00:01,700 --> 01:00:05,000
satirical. 
Should we say the rodders club? 

1000
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:08,500
For sure, terrible, privacy and 
maximus in and, and bournville. 

1001
01:00:08,500 --> 01:00:11,800
When it comes out, and I should 
be trotting down to waterstones 

1002
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:13,900
to collect my copy on the day of
publication. 

1003
01:00:14,600 --> 01:00:17,000
Thank you very much. 
I'm glad really glad to hear it.

1004
01:00:17,300 --> 01:00:19,900
That's been great fun. 
Thanks again to Jonathan. 

1005
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:24,000
Just after we recorded, he 
messaged me to say, how could we

1006
01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:27,700
miss the most obvious, goons 
stroke private life of Sherlock,

1007
01:00:27,700 --> 01:00:32,500
Holmes, connection sellers were 
supposed to play Watson, which 

1008
01:00:32,500 --> 01:00:36,100
is absolutely right alongside. 
I believe, Peter. 

1009
01:00:36,100 --> 01:00:39,800
O'Toole, as as Sherlock Holmes, 
hope you enjoyed the show next 

1010
01:00:39,800 --> 01:00:42,600
week, myself and a returning 
guest going to be cast, a 

1011
01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:45,100
critical eye, over that movie 
that Jonathan. 

1012
01:00:45,100 --> 01:00:48,300
And I were talking about, The 
highly challenging arthouse 

1013
01:00:48,300 --> 01:00:51,000
film. 
The Great McGonigle from 1974, 

1014
01:00:51,700 --> 01:00:53,100
see you soon. 
Bye.