There's other thing that the goons are accused of breaking
new ground. There's an awful thing that
comics get accused of doing, but you're not aware of doing it
when you're doing it, are you? No, of course not.
No, I don't think anyone is. Read reviews and you say, my
God, this is a breakthrough or something, but you don't sit out
and say let's do a breakthrough this week.
Looking back retrospectively, you have done something new
maybe, but at the time it just seemed like a good idea to do
what you did. Yes, and you just did it because
it gave you enjoyment and fulfilled something in yourself,
but never with the idea of sort of attempting to break new
ground. I think, you know, if you set
out that way, I mean, if if you're a scientist and you're
looking for a discovery or in a research that way, there's a
whole other thing. But in our biz, certainly not.
I think you know it would kill it and the word go.
Hello and welcome to Goonpod. And podcasting, like sex, is
best performed in collaboration with somebody else.
So thankfully I have a somebody else to collaborate with this
week and it is John Ortey from Behind the Stunts.
I love the idea that you've you've made the connection
between sex and me. For the purpose of the exercise,
would you mind bringing the cigarettes over when you're
done? Is that all right?
We'll just, we'll, we'll share a post coital 1.
I don't smoke anymore, but for the purpose of the exercise,
we'll do. Did you get the reference, John?
Yeah, well, there's a, well, apart from the smoking reference
that I made. No, I didn't.
I didn't. I didn't at the start.
It's is the word paraphrasing. I don't think that's the correct
word in this in this context. But I was, I was adapting
something that Marty Feldman said in the documentary we're
going to talk about. But he said comedy, like sex, is
best performed in collaboration with somebody else.
Right. See, of all of the notes I made,
that wasn't one of them. Marty had a lot to say in in the
documentary we are going to talk about today.
But before we before we come to that, John, it's great to have
you back. I think the last time you were
on was to talk about that God awful film Curse of the Was it
curse or trail Curse of the Pink Panther.
Yeah, well, yes, it may well have been cursed.
The Pink Panther. And what was the other thing
we'd do? Oh, we did the the the Comedy
Awards. Do you remember?
That's right. British Comedy Awards.
Spike Milligner? Yes, and his and his outburst
towards our current king. Yes.
So yeah, no, that's I've just, you know, busy as usual doing
stuff. Well, in case people haven't
heard you before on this show, and why not?
You are the host of Behind the Stunts yes, and you are a a big
wheel in the stunt world, I guess.
Oh dear, fair, that's that's. Really overblowing it.
I, I, I mean, I, I genuinely get, I do get imposter syndrome
from time to time and have to pinch myself and go this is
really how this is supposed to work.
I'm a fan of the stunt business, having wanted to be a stuntman
when I left school. That was the reason behind it.
And after going into a situation where I was being shown taught
by a stunt professional how to do this and how to do that and
how to do falls and how to do bits and pieces.
And I could ride a horse, but I couldn't ride it terribly well.
So I fell off a horse as per the training and broke my hip.
And ever since then it's been, I mean, that was what 30 plus
years ago and it's never been right since.
And, and people heal quickly and, and some don't.
And I'm, I'm one of the ones that don't, sadly.
But since then, having done a a bit of writing, but journalism
for various magazines and broadsheets and bits and pieces,
I thought would would be really would be interesting to put
something together from a YouTube point of view where we
celebrate those individuals that that do as far as I'm concerned,
the most important job in in film making, which is stunt
work. So I started doing that and then
the podcasting thing happened and I started doing that as
well. And now it's got to the stage
where I've been doing it long enough where people come to me
and go, we'd like you to interview so and so or an agent
will come to me and say, how about doing this with my client?
So that's really nice. Very good.
That's good to get you back. And I'm really looking forward
to talking about this Marty Feldman television extravaganza.
Yep, there was a terrific documentary called Marty
Feldman. What is Comedy?
Where he takes a little meander through the world of comedy and
tries to pull it apart and tries to explore why certain things
are funny, how things become funny, what was funny to him,
the origins of comedy, but also through the eyes of comedy
actors or comedy writers, particularly some that he would
have worked with or some that he was familiar with over the
years. And I've really enjoyed it.
I thought it was a terrific look.
I hadn't seen anything since, apart from maybe was it the late
90s possibly Dawn French did a thing called women who are funny
or something of that nature. Interviewed a whole bunch of
individuals and it was that was a really good insight into what
makes certain individuals tick. Dawn French, particularly with
Victoria Wood, there's an episode.
Yes. Oh, so remember that, Yeah.
Really, really good. And this is not a million miles
away from that, only done in a very different situation to a
very different time span, but but you kind of get the same
sort of little Nuggets of information which are
fascinating. But I can imagine this.
There's scratching the heads and saying, but Tyler, we love Marty
Feldman and all that. Why does this qualify for Goon?
Part. Well, we we do.
We are skipping the surface of the Gooner verse as you know
here. However, he does manage to get a
little chat on location with Peter Sellers while making the
magic Christian. Yes, he does, and that's great.
Yeah. And that's really, really good.
In fact, I would go as far as I know we're going to talk about
it, but I would go as far as to say that it's possibly the best
few moments of Sellers being interviewed about something that
I've seen for such a long time. I would agree.
And I'm wondering whether it's because he's talking to, I
guess, a peer. Yeah, almost absolutely.
Who's chain smoking like? It was such a different.
I was, I used to be a smoker. I, I never smoked as much as
Marty Feldman did. I was to make that very clear.
But there wasn't an opportunity where having a smoke wasn't an
option. There's a bit where he sat in
the middle of a ring of primary school children.
Yes, that's right. Smoking a cigarette, yeah, and
pontificating about comedy. Yeah, there was after they they
watched, they watched the Punch and Judy show Punch.
And Judy show if you if you made a a drinking game out of, you
know, having a drink every time you saw Marty you.
Would. Wouldn't you?
So this is so you said what? What did you say it was called?
It's got, I think it's called Marty Feldman.
What is comedy? Yeah, see, that flashes up.
That title flashes up as as the documentary begins, but I
believe it it's official title is no, but seriously.
Oh, OK, but but to make it even more confusing, it it it's a
documentary under the the strand, the BBC Two series,
occasional series, one pair of eyes.
What a pair. Very appropriate for the longest
time because when this when this because I I was aware of this
documentary. There was a pretty awful quality
version floating around for years but BBC put it up on.
BBC Archive, isn't it? They've they've got a really
good version of it, yeah. Yeah, So they they put that up
on YouTube so it's freely available to watch.
It's really good. But for the longest time, I just
thought that the one pair of eyes was to indicate Marty's
peculiar. Yeah appearance.
But. But no, it was, it was actually
the the, the title of this BBC 2 documentary strand.
And it went, it ran. And they weren't, it wasn't
anything like weekly or even monthly.
It was sporadic. It was random.
Yeah. And.
And it ran from 67 until 1984. Would you believe 84?
Really. Yes.
Yes, apparently. And I looked at, I looked at
who? So every.
Time. Who else was involved then?
Yeah. It was basically each episode
was presented by a different personality, right?
OK. And it could be anyone from,
well, in this case, comedy, acting, science, drama, music,
philosophy, just somebody who was a leader in their particular
field. And it wasn't necessarily about
what they did, but it was them talking about a subject that
they cared deeply about. Right.
OK. And I'll just give you I, I, I
looked at the list of there was God.
It must have been about. Yeah, give us, give us the
runners and riders who's in. 40 or 50 of these episodes and I
and I picked out ones that just caught my eye in terms of the, I
guess the the people involved. OK.
We have John Wells. Oh, right.
Yeah, and his, his episode was just called the Monkey Puzzle,
Right. The the thing about this, by the
way, on Wikipedia, it doesn't get, it just gives you the
titles. It doesn't give you an
indication of what they were about.
Oh, I see. So you have to use your
imagination. You had the politician who I
think he was Joe Grimmond, who was the leader of the Liberal.
Party Joe Yes, yes, that's right.
Yes. In the 60s, yeah.
He was one of the first to do this documentary and his his
title was The Dead Hand of Democracy.
The novelist Tom Wolfe, who I'm very fond of, did an episode
called Happiness is Wheel shaped, Wheel shaped, wheel
shaped Robert Morley, who I find I have trouble with trouble
with. Yes.
Whenever he turns up in a film I go, oh God, his, his
documentary, his episode was called Was your Schoolmaster
Really Necessary? Is there any chance of milk in
this tea? Gerald Scarf, who?
I'm a big fan of the cartoonist. I think I see violence all
around me. Patrick Moore, can you?
Yeah. Can you speak Venusian?
Which of course you can fluently.
Yes, yeah. And lastly, and and there's
there's many others, but this this caught my eye.
And sadly, I don't think this exists or it certainly hasn't
turned up an episode called If you've got a pair of eyes, Use
Them right, Which would be perfect for Marty.
Yes, it could, yeah. But who do you think that might
be, and why would it interest me in particular?
If you've got a pair of eyes, use them.
It's somebody. Why would it particularly
interest me, John? Oh, I see.
Because, well, you're you're a fan of you're a fan of comedy.
You're a fan of the goons. Glasses.
No Coons if you've got to use them.
No. You're going to have to help me
out here for the purpose of Spike.
Spike is it? Spike had his own episode of
this is how confusing this is The the the the strand is called
one pair of eyes, right? And the subtitle spikes episode
was called If you've got a pair of eyes, use them.
Very confusing. Very confusing.
Yes, exactly. I wouldn't have gone directly to
Spike on that, no. No, it was from February 1973
and I believe I did a bit more digging on that one and it was
like a day in the life. It was basically him, just a
camera following him about. Oh, see, I'd love that.
I would love that. That would be terrific, right?
So we can make a we can make a plea here.
If anybody is already familiar with this and dare say fingers
crossed and everything crossed has a version of this, then
please let us know because that would be hugely entertaining to
see. I'm sure there's been many
people, Goon fans the world over that would want to see that.
Brilliant. Well, absolutely.
I mean, I would be first in the queue, of course.
And the film was apparently, as I say, like a a a day in the
life of Mike Milligan, a glimpse of his life and attempts to keep
in in close touch with unreality and things that he believed are
important, right, Such as the perfect doughnut.
Oh see this is the everything is boxes have been ticked left
front and centre. Treasure in London's docks,
right? And also, and this is typical
Milligan, the fact that all rain clouds are British, wherever
they may be. Wow, it's nice.
Yes, it's it's a sign if it's raining, you've you've you've
annoyed us in some shape or form and we're we're giving it back
to you, Right. OK.
So there we go. So so that's this.
You know this one pair of eyes. So, folks, if you're wondering
why we're here, that's why we're here.
This is Wilson's Music Hall. It was last used about 100 years
ago. This would have been a great
room to work. You could actually, you could
feel some sense of contact with an audience here.
You could almost reach out and touch them.
That's the thing that's sort of lacking in television.
You miss that in TV. You're working through a camera.
There is a need for this. Artists have a need to contact
the audience and the audience have a need to contact the
artist. Musical was created by people,
for people. It was the people who performed
it were the same people who sat and watched the performances.
You know, most of the week they worked and then they got up and
they sang in the evenings or they performed it.
They created it themselves. And oddly enough, although I was
born out of that age, I was born in an age of radio and
television and cinema. I thought myself to be very much
part of the tradition of Music Hall.
And I know it has a tremendous influence on the work I do.
And I care very much about it. I care much about the people, I
care much about the performers. I care about the buildings.
Ugly enough too. What we actually need is some
kind of not to keep it going just because it's old.
You know, the old things are are nice.
They have some connotations, but because I think it fills a need,
that's the end of the sermon. Into the song and off hi.
It is broadcast on the 7th of June 1969.
Is it? Really.
OK, yeah, I looked at what else was on TV, right?
The the evening or the day that this was broadcast.
OK, so as I say, it was 7th of June 69.
It was a Saturday, right? There's a quite a lot of
listeners who are Doctor, Doctor Who fans.
OK, the Doctor Who episode on this day was the War Games Part
8. This is this is per twee. 69
wasn't it still trout? And then, oh, was it?
Trout. I don't know.
I'm not, I think. Per twee was 70, OK, I think and
what do I know, but I'm I'm sure that's the case.
OK, there will be people shouting now, but I'm sure it
was Trout. And OK, also on television D
time with Simon D Oh, right. And his guests included Cliff
Richard Arthur, ASCII. Anything else?
Yes. And Bobby Gentry.
Oh. What, what a what a sofa?
To have, I know, wow, I'd love that.
There's also on the Buses on ITV.
Oh my, go on, get. That bus, there you go.
Get it marvellous, Get it marvellous and the Bruce Forsyth
Show. Oh, well, I tell you what, it's
every How many channels were there in 1969?
We still on three. Were we on 3/3?
Bloody hell, that's I'll tell you what, that's some
entertainment for a Saturday night that is on three channels.
Well, there's also something else that was on, right, which I
just want to spend a moment talking about.
Go on. OK, It was, it was a, a new
program called Whatever Next, right?
Right. It was on BBC 11045.
I think it was a 25 minute long program.
OK, from what I could find out, it appears to have been like a
sort of bear in mind, this is 1969, although it is BBC One.
It's kind of like a way out variety show, OK, right.
Featuring a girl group called the Flirtations every week,
right? And every week, someone who you
wouldn't normally associate with Shakespeare would appear
performing as one of his characters.
Right. And there was also.
You like this bit, John. Every week there was a bit where
a stuntman was invited to to perform a stunt he'd never done
before. Really.
Apparently. Yeah.
And also there was a Horror Story that was read out on
camera. And apparently the presenter was
the presenter. Was Morris the minor bird?
What is that? What is Morris the Minor?
Is it actually a minor bird? Called.
I'm assuming it's an actual minor bird that speaks.
What? Not complete sentences, surely.
I don't know it. No, I don't know but but I I
bring it up specifically because the evening of 7th of June 1969
whatever next 1045 it features the flirtations the girl group
under a shower. Apparently the end credits were
sung by a girl in a bubble bath. So kind of get the idea here
where this? This is the only time you
mentioned post coital cigarette at the start, yes.
What? What else could possibly happen
in this show? But who appears playing Shylock
in The Merchant of Venice? Who do you think appears playing
Shylock? Remember.
Remember I said every week someone comes on and appears as
like a Shakespeare character? Yes.
Now, now, who were we talking about not 5 minutes ago?
There's a clue. Spike Milligan?
Yes, yes, Spike Milligan plays Shylock.
I, I, I, I don't even want to think what that was like.
You can just imagine it. I mean, you know, there there
is, as we know in later life there's an association with
comedic roles and Shakespeare. Peter Hall was one of those
individuals that managed to get Eric Sykes to play a very
serious role in Shakespeare and Richard.
Bryers, I think Richard. Bryers indeed.
Yes, Richard Bryers. Folly enough, if I may, just for
a moment. That brings me onto my Michael
Caine story of occasions where people who don't do Shakespeare
were asked to do Shakespeare. You did mention that just a
moment ago. And he was at a charity event
and somebody had pledged $500,000, which back in 1971 was
a huge, some, still a huge sum of money now, but nevertheless
for John Wayne to read Shakespeare.
And so he was given this piece of paper and he said, and I
quote to be or not to be. That is the question whether it
is nobler in The Who wrote this shit?
He said so nonetheless. But that was a a a Barry Cryer
butterfly brain moment I had. I thought, oh, I remember that.
And that's what you said. Hang on, where's Michael Caine
in this? He was the one that told the
story. Oh, I see.
I. Think that's fair?
But he was he was at the event. Does that count?
I suppose. Yeah, that does.
What's the story about? Apocryphal story, I'm sure about
John Wayne in some biblical epic where he says something like is,
is this the Son of God? And then then the director says,
no, John love John. Can you say it with a bit of
awe? And he goes, and he goes, Awe,
is this the Son of God? Yeah, just, you know, it's he's
just, he's put up there on this pedestal for and quite rightly
so. You know, there are a moment you
put up, put him on the pedestal because there are still people
around the world who see pictures of John Wayne and they
think that is America. You know, that's the in fact, I
think there was a coin when he passed away.
And I think Maureen, Maureen O'Hara was, was one of the ones
who was instigated this. And there was a commemorative
coin that simply said John Wayne American.
It said on it on the basis that he was associated with being
America. But every once in a while, he
didn't take stage direction terribly.
Well, I like the fact that he he knocked Baldrick into a canal.
Oh, yes, that's right. We talked about that, didn't we?
That's right. In Branigan.
Yeah, Tony.
Anyway, listen, giving him the beans, right?
Go on. Sorry.
We we better get to Marty Feldman.
Yes, quite right. So before we before we even get
I keep putting off us talking. About two hours in already and
before we get there, yes. But let's just quickly talk
about Marty in, in, in the round.
So he, so he's born 1937 and I was looking at his, his early
life and it's an incredible dissolute, misspent youth, I
suppose. Yes, I think it was.
I also don't think that he would have got very far with his old,
with his original name, Martin Allen Feldman.
Martin Feldman. So he's gone with Marty, which I
think makes a great deal of sense.
You know, you associate him, the hair, the image.
He's a Marty. There's he's definitely not a
Martin, you know. But yes, misspent youth.
Yeah. He was a bit of a bit of a lad,
wasn't he? Well, he was thrown out of a art
school. He'd had poems published as as a
teenager and apparently he'd met Dylan Thomas in Soho as a
teenager and and Dylan Thomas had encouraged him in terms of
the poetry. He went to Paris when he was 16.
He became a sculptor's tout, and what he would do was persuade
dumb American tourists to buy the work of a supposed great
French sculptor. But it's actually another
American who would eat garlic and adopt A ropey French accent.
Yeah. Knock, knock out something half
an hour before, Yeah. Yeah, I'm just thinking Tony
Hancock in The Rebel. Exactly.
Yes, You know, and that was around 1953 and and that year he
came back to England. He formed a jazz group, of which
more later. He was a trumpeter, wouldn't he?
Yeah. Yeah, and he mentions that in
the in the show, He worked in factories, book shops, music
shops. And again, we'll come back to a
fair in Margate. He played a like a Native
American kind of Mystic figure. I think that's, I think that's
giving it a bit too too much, I think.
It is, it's, it's, it's a bit like it's Johnny Depp in The
Lone Ranger. Yes.
You know, it's that sort of thing.
I think more than anything else. Yeah.
Although possibly not done with with such a plum.
Yeah, and and then obviously he met Berry Tukey, got into script
writing and the rest of his history, it was eyes are like
that due to a botched thyroid operation in 19. 61 That's
right, yeah. So he's got, you know, he's got
one in Chiswick and one in Islington, but he only, but he,
he compensated for it enormously because it was such a, such a
magical part of, you know, it's a condition, right?
So he's had this thyroid thing and this is a result of that.
I wonder then, as I wonder now, if the amount of, of success
that he had, admittedly, he very physical, you know, he's a
vaudevillian. He's that sort of that he
thrives on that type of input. But his physical appearance has
made such a huge impact on his career.
Would he have been that individual, you know, that would
have been available to do this role, do this role if he didn't
look a certain way? And I appreciate that.
He's incredibly talented in those things that he's done, but
his look is massively important to him.
It seems very logical that the writer should also be the
performer. It completes the process.
I mean, I don't think of writing and acting as separate
functions. Inventing the script is the part
that most interests me, performing as a catharsis, a
kind of orgasm. Consequently, when I've finished
a show, it's over dead. When I watch myself on the
screen, it's in a curious, sort of detached way, as if it were
somebody else. I don't find myself funny, but
I'm sometimes interested in, and I'm often surprised that I did a
particular thing in a particular way.
It came as a surprise to me that I didn't really learn anything
by watching myself working intuitively as I need to.
Most of the time I'm not really conscious of what I'm doing
while I'm doing it, and by the time I see a show on the screen,
it's irrelevant because I'm involved in the next thing.
So this documentary it is, it is presented by written by I guess,
and and presented by, Yep, by Marty.
There's no narrator. There's no presenter of Marty.
It begins with an award show. Very smokes waved.
Yeah, I couldn't quite understand what it was, but it's
it's the British light entertainment script that he's
winning an award for for the show party.
For the show party. Very exciting outfit, black
suit, black shirt with the huge white bow tie.
It's a remarkable the whole thing.
If he'd worn a black, everything was black, you know.
Well, OK, fair enough, but he just has to accentuate.
It was enormous white bow tie. He's receiving this award.
He he's got a cigarette on the go already.
Yep, and in doubt. And as he's returning to his
seat, he goes up to the camera and kind of snogs it or
something. And, and Marty obviously
narrating this says kind of ruefully now, what made me do
that? Now, what made me do that?
Well, the lights were on and there's a pointing at you.
That's right, you're a. Performer.
Somebody leaves the fridge door open.
I'm going to do 20 minutes. And then and then there's this
cut to Margate, as I mentioned before, we head yes to this
fairground as a he, he said he worked as a red.
It was a Red Indian fake. Here, Yeah.
And I, I just, I just wrote, God, it looks grim.
Margate I mean the the only thing that there's a couple of
exciting moments, the fact that he's driving a Mustang in 1969,
which is gorgeous. I mean it looks absolutely got
the the year before 68 bullet came out yes and Steve McQueen
of course, driving the the the Mustang in that and he's driving
a soft top and it looks really, really yummy and Christ knows
how much it would have cost him a fortune.
I would have thought back then, but of course he's wearing this.
What is it, a mink coat or something?
I don't know how. I don't know how many people in
Margate would have gone. I think I'll put the mink on
today it. Kind of looks like a Harlem
pimp, yes. He does, yeah.
Yeah. And he wears that for a for a
fair bit of the show, to be honest.
Yeah. And and a cap.
He's got a cap and a cap. Yeah, yeah.
He's very philosophical. He's very thoughtful.
His his, his voice over on this. He says as a child it never
occurred to to him that you could have a career as a
comedian. And he says comedy is a kind of
neurosis you exploit which. Yes.
I thought about that for about 5 minutes, sucking the end of my
pencil and I thought that's what.
There's a lot of, you know, in the entertainment industry,
particularly with the actors or comedians or stunt people, if we
look at that respect. And one of the things that I get
a lot when I talk to them is the fact, the similar sort of thing.
I didn't believe that you could make a living doing this.
You know, we didn't know that this was a job.
Yeah. And I think that's what Marty's
driving at is the fact that, you know, as far as he was
concerned, he was funny. Other people thought he was
funny. All of a sudden he's funny on a
much bigger scale and being paid for it on a much bigger scale
and, and creating shows and doing films and stuff.
And it's almost run away with him.
You know, it's got out of his grasp almost, but I think as as
I say with a lot of individuals, that what I can do this for a
living really. And the hard thing is
maintaining that level of of funny, you know, which I think
is why he's exploring it here. Throughout this documentary,
he's is the is the modern phrase he's even though he's one
himself, he's othering comedians in the sense of he's he's making
them out to be social outcasts and and yeah, freaks.
Almost, I think so. I think he's looking, he's
looking at making what he's, I think there's also what he's
trying to do. He's trying to find other people
who are like him. You know, he thinks this and he
wants to find other people who like mindedly go, yes, I
understand that exactly because I'm coming from the same place.
Because not long after that, he has a he has a chat with Dudley
Moore. Yes, in respect of of the type
of comedy and the way that he approaches it.
Again, both of them now wearing very silly coats and although
Dudley not smoking but Marty making up for it.
Marty smoking 2 cigarettes to make up cigarettes.
Yes, Dudley. Not smoking one very tall
cigarette to to remind the world that Dudley is part of a Dubble
act and has the you can always tell a really serious smoker
when they have the lighter round their neck on on a piece of
string, which Marty has throughout all of this, in fact,
did for many, many years. He was never short of a light.
That's true. But yeah, he's trying to get
that information out of Dudley and trying to make comparisons
between what Dudley does from his school days to what Marty
did throughout his school days as well.
You know, the the bullies picking on people.
You try and get out of it with comedy and that's what he's
trying to do. He's trying to make the
comparisons there and see whether that continues right the
way through all of the all of the people that he speaks to.
Dudley seems a little bit subdued.
He is in his interview and he talks about being like you say,
unpopular at school. And he and he's the classic
story and he says about Dudley talks about making the bullies
laugh to keep in with them and send stoppers trousers getting
pulled down at playtime. Take a hot crumpet from behind
without blooming. That's right, he he also quotes
Oscar Wilde because on the on the basis that, you know, Dudley
thought it would be a nice way to meet girls, you know, which
is which is exactly the way that that Marty thought at the time.
And he quotes Oscar Wilde by saying men laugh with their
eyes, women with their looks, you know, So there was a certain
look that he might have got or something during that.
We'll go. I'm getting a bit of approval
from over here. This might be where I might be
better sorted when he was just generally goofing about at
school and to see if if that would work long term.
But it's fascinating looking at pulling this apart, you know?
Yeah, but Marty put it in more blunt terms.
He said that comedy starts out as a defence mechanism, but you
later find out that it's a way to pull birds, right.
Yeah. And, and, and Dudley as well,
said that he didn't really enjoy Oxford.
He felt out of place. He felt like a fraud.
Yes, that's right. Yes, he did.
Which I didn't realise. I know, I know enough about
Dudley Moore. I didn't realise that he was
unhappy at all. No, because there was a, if you
remember at the, at the back end of his life when he was struck
down with this terrible disease. He had the South Bank show, I
think did a, did a show on him and it was never, and it went
right back to his early days. Spoke to his organ tutor back
there because that was what he, what he, what he majored in back
there. And this was never discussed at
any point. This was the first time I was
hearing it, which was on this on this particular documentary.
Yeah, and then we get this primary school where there's a
Punch and Judy show going on. Still the most violent
children's entertainment we've ever had, he quotes.
And he's quite right. I mean, you know, Punch and Judy
is is, you see the kids laughing, but there's the amount
of violence in it is. I find to this day I find the
whole concept of Punch and Judy shows incomprehensible.
Just. Extraordinary, isn't it?
Did you as a child? Because they certainly didn't
have them when I was growing up. But did you ever attend as a
child a Punch and Judy show? Well, I'm too inland.
I think being in the Midlands, you know, I'm right in the smack
bang in the middle. So we may have seen one.
If we'd gone to the coast, the, the nearest coast from us would
have been Skegness, and that was a day trip to get there.
You know, it's, it's that moment in National Lampoon's vacation
where they go to the Grand Canyon and they go, right,
That's the Grand Canyon kid. OK, back in the car.
We've got to go. Take it off.
You know, so we may have seen one there, but I wasn't, I don't
think I'd ever seen one apart from those occasions maybe.
Certainly when we went to parties or we went to places of
that nature that nobody had ever done it.
But when you, when you look at it now and you think, Jesus, how
violent is this? And kids are laughing and they
love it. But he does explain to them
about when the policeman's hitting there or, or, or they're
hitting everybody, it's not very nice.
If you were hit by, by a, by a, with a piece of wood, you
wouldn't be very happy, would you?
And they were kind of agreeing on the whole thing.
But so you kind of think, well, maybe they've got the message,
but obviously look at them later life and most of them are
probably doing 10 to 15 years as habituals in in jail, you know.
So it's, it's very difficult to look at it and go, yes, I've
understood exactly what this is trying to tell me.
What it's actually trying to tell me is I like violence is
what it's trying to tell me. Very complicated piece of work.
But he's but he's there, sat as I said before, he sat there with
his legs crossed. Yep, talking to a group of
seven-year olds. Yeah, ideally what you would
have wanted there was you would have want a couple of those 7
year olds to ask him for a light and then have a smoke as well.
You know, we all join round together so that he would go, Oh
yeah, certainly because he's got one around his neck.
Here you go. And then they crack on with.
So what did you think of the Punch and Judy dear?
He's watching this Punch and Judy show as the as the kids are
laughing, he says. He said children are more hip
than adults. They react instinctively to what
they find funny. They don't read the reviews
first. Do you think it was a bit
waspish? Yeah, it was really, I mean, you
know, the the idea of a bunch of seven-year olds going, I'm not
watching this. Have you read what they've said
in this? It's appalling.
Apparently this one's portrayed as being, you know, out of town,
whatever that means. No, I want nothing to do with
it. No.
And I, I mean, yes, kids do laugh at anything when you when
you and I can, I do see the appeal of that, the silliness of
the high pitched voice and the the crocodile with a stick in
its hand hitting somebody and the sausages falling over.
It's funny, right? I do see that.
But you know, from a kids point of view, but later on in life
you go, really, you're still doing this.
Have has this not moved on? It is and it is, it's a very
violent show. It, it, it wouldn't be punching
Judy if it wasn't involving acts of violence all the way through
it, you know, just you get the violence to get the laugh, you
know, So it's, yeah, it's a strange one.
Because he was asking the kids what they found.
Funny. That's right, yeah.
No one, none of them really replied because of the strange
looking man with a cigarette. Smoking a cigarette.
Looking very serious, asking them and, and he, he basically
helps them, he says or prompts them.
He says most most of the things you liked were when they were
hitting each other, weren't they?
And they went, yeah. Yeah.
Can you put that smoke out? It's hurting my eyes.
Yeah. And then he goes to the pub and
he smokes. Well, before we get there, did
you notice that he quotes Picasso at one point and soon
after he quotes Bernard Shaw and and Marshall Mcluhan who who I
only know from Annie Hall. Oh, Annie Hall.
Yes, of course, yeah. Do do do you think he has?
Marty has. I mean, he's a very, very clever
man and a great writer and a great performer.
Do you think he had pretensions to be an intellectual?
I think there is a, there's a documentary I've seen, I think
it was, it was shown on Channel 4.
I, I believe it's available on YouTube as well.
And it is him. And there's a moment where he's
in his writing room, there's a typewriter on the desk and he's
holding a bust of himself, right.
And he's saying. All I have is what's in there.
Yeah, that belongs to me. The thing to do is to keep
people out of it. Well, unless you invite them in.
I'm inviting you in. Fine.
But that's as a guest. You can come into my head, but
my head is private. It belongs to me.
I must fight to keep control of what's in there and not let
other people get inside it and March all over it, you know?
So that's the reason really that I write.
I write poetry, but I write poetry for me.
And why do them? As I take the top off my head
and let the ideas and the images just fall out.
But then it's only for me. I protect the inside of that,
and I won't allow anybody in unless I invite them.
So I distress psychiatrists. I don't want anybody coming
inside my head. You know, it's like my house.
That's what they want to get the producers.
That's where the machine wants to get inside your head.
They want to take over the inside and turn it into what
they want it to be. I, I think what he's driving at
is the fact that there's a Marty Feldman.
And there was then the Marty Feldman, there was the 2
characters. You know, Bruce Forsyth did a
similar thing, and it's a very, it's that he did a very physical
thing. Where he would stand at the side
of the stage and when they said, ladies and gentlemen, Bruce
Forsyth, he would do a little double step, kick step from a
dance. But all those people with dance
experience know what a kick step is, right?
So he would do a little kick step and then go on.
And he became Bruce Forsyth the entertainer.
He wasn't the Bruce Forsyth that was in the wings waiting to go
on. And I think that's what Marty's
driving at. He so he he went from being
Bruce Forsyth to being Brucey, or exactly boy Bruce.
Absolutely, yes. The mighty Atom.
Yes, that's right. Exactly, exactly the same
fellow. Yeah.
So there's a moment and I think, and he is Marty's incredibly
well read. Oh, you know, and could talk
about anything. To talk, talk with anybody about
anything and he had a knowledge of whether it was politics,
whether it was travel, whether it was you name it, he would
manage to try and find something from it and derive the the most
from that individual. A bit like being a sponge.
He would soak up a huge amount of information.
Did you think of it as an intellectual?
Well, maybe, you know, maybe he got, he got a, a point in time
where he thought I can get to here and anything up to this
point, I'm no bother at all. Somebody asked me about it.
I can write about it. I can make this funny.
But there was stuff for which he was constantly reading the whole
time and learning the whole time, I would imagine.
But yeah, back, back to the back to the program.
So we have these, these children, as I, as I said, and,
and then Marty's back at the fairground and he, he mentions
this current nostalgia for childhood.
He says fairgrounds are back, the 40s are back.
Mickey Mouse watches are trending, amusement arcades are
springing up all over London. And this, that's this prompts
him to look back at his early career.
He talks about touring in a comedy musical act called Saucy
Girls of 52. That's right.
Yeah. 52 and 53. Saucy.
And and this is where he he then is strolling around the deserted
and decrepit Wilton's musical. Wilton's musical?
My Goodness, Yes. And a year later, the year after
this was filmed, it was the basis of that special show that
Spike organised, that special charity thing that it was called
Wilton's, the handsomest hall in town.
Oh, right. That.
That was there, was it? It was it was a fundraising
event to try and restore Wilton's back to its former
glory. And it was, it was televised and
it was all these comedians and comics and whatnot of the day
recreating musical acts, obviously including Peter
Sellers. And so like, but, but Marty's at
Wiltons and he's walking around. Doesn't he, doesn't he end with
a song or he ends with it? Yes.
He does. Yes, he does.
Which he which he kind of does that in Young Frankenstein at
1:00. Yes, that's right.
And he says he feels part he's you kind of get.
You kind of get the feeling he feels a little bit born out of
time. He feels part of the traditional
musical despite having been born after.
Yeah, I think he would have liked that vaudevillian, that
type of thing. You know his because a lot of
his comedy hugely physical, you know, was that very famous
sketch that people keep showing whenever they talk about Marty,
which which is the goes to the vets.
You've got the animal in the in the box.
Do you remember that? Yes, drags.
So all of that is very hugely physical piece of comedy and
that that ticks all of those boxes for musical and for
vaudeville and that type of thing.
So maybe he was and and and and has a look of those type of
characters from there as his heroes that he that he tries to
to base his his comedy on. And then he interviewed Sandy
Powell. Oh my goodness, both of them
smoking on this occasion, just for balance.
Yes, now Sandy Powell looks about 90, but he was actually
only 68, probably. 34 Yeah, exactly.
It was. They were different times,
weren't they? There was.
There was no. Do you know what I would
suggest? Wine.
A bad knife, bit of moisturizer, you know, that sort of thing.
No, no, no. I'll be fine.
He's he's 15 years younger than Paul McCartney.
I'm sorry, just say that again for context.
He's 15 years What? He's 15 years younger than Paul
McCartney is now. Yeah, so, I mean, Sandy does
look as though he was there at the dawn of time.
Good happens. Yeah, No, there's some.
But again, you know, I mean, a lot of people will not know what
Sandy, who Sandy Powell is, but a very clearly a a massively
important part of that time and and goes through this remarkable
act on stage with a ventriloquist because it turned
it was vents, wasn't it? That was the thing.
That was the point they were driving at, which leads onto
something else. But he'd said used to get sent
vent acts from time to time who were just terrible.
And so he thought, I wonder if I could do that.
And he created this vent act that was absolutely ridiculous
from start to finish. You know, he's having trouble
making the making the puppet move.
And, and he said, well, well, I only need this bit.
And he takes the body and chucks it away.
And it's just, he's just got the stick in his hand with the head
on top, which he's tried to operate.
And this this female assistant who's with him the whole time.
So, yeah, the remarkable stuff. And of course, even then, you
know the audience is rolling about laughing and and having a
great time. I heard a recording of that act
that Sandy Powell used to do right, years and years ago.
And I remember thinking it was really, really funny and
marvelling because it it must have been recorded in the 40s or
something, right? And marvelling and thinking
that's so clever, that's so clever.
And it's when he asked the dummy, ventriloquist dummy where
he's from or something. And because he's such a terrible
ventriloquist, he goes home from that's right.
And then he says the audience, he's trying to say
Czechoslovakia. He's trying to say
Czechoslovakia. I should have, said Leeds.
I should have said Leeds, yeah, brilliant.
But again, it's just the whole concept of having ventriloquist
acts on the radio, I mean. Yeah.
Well, we'll come. We'll come to that.
Well, yes, it's. Even better than that?
That's right. Yeah, Marty says again,
philosophically. You can't write an act.
An act is something you build. Yeah, yeah, OK.
Which I suppose is, yeah, because basically Sandy Powell
was saying he, he started with this one idea and then developed
it and developed it and added and subtracted and over time
and, and over, you know, the, the course of a year or two
years or three years and so many different audience reactions and
whatnot. You, you hone.
But that's it, you know, you start with something that you
think, oh, this will never work. And then you shave the edge off
that and, and take that line out.
And then that finds you over here and all of a sudden you've
got something that, oh, hang on, that's, that's actually quite
doable. I can do that now.
And you then you start getting the response from it and it
becomes a roller coaster. You know, you, you really get
stuck in the middle of it. Then Marty says one of the most
important things in his life is music.
Yes. And he talks about he he played
jazz for a time. And although this isn't in the
program, I did read an interview he gave around the around this
time talking. He was talking about when he was
in this band in the 50s, and he said it was a good group.
Apart from me, he says. I was described in the national
press as the worst trumpet player in the world.
It was a yardstick to judge others by better than Marty
Falburn. Yeah, it's, it's interesting.
And he does make this connection and This is why he goes in that
direction, I suppose. But, you know, musicians make
good comedians because they're under, they understand rhythm,
they understand balance, they understand timing, you know
where it comes from that. So that's his argument I think.
Indeed. And and then we have John
Hendricks, who's a jazz singer, and Annie Ross.
It's fascinating to look at Marty, who sat at a table just
in front of them and this, I assume it's Ronnie Scott's.
I can't really place where it is, but they're little little
jazz club and this is the act that's going on.
And he's got a big broad smile on his face and he's nodding the
whole time in time with the with the thing.
And he's got a big glass of wine and the and the cigarette and
he's doing the whole 9 yards. And there's, you know, when,
when the whole ending of the number comes up, the Umboire
comes a Bodom and they hit the ending and he's always puts down
the glass, the applauding, you know, he absolutely loves it.
What else does he have to do, though, in order to applaud?
Always put a cigarette down, of course.
Yes, yes, yes. Absolutely can't do it.
You're going to waste it. Pop it down there and then and
then have applause. Yeah.
But then we get to the most
important part of the programme as far as I'm concerned.
And listeners have been waiting for this.
Yeah, Peter Sellers. Peter Sellers on the set of
Magic Christian. I've never had so much fun in my
life. I had when we made those shows
in any movie or in any play or in any show.
But it sounded like fun. I I don't know, but I figured
unless it's unless it's fun to do, isn't I'm never fun to watch
or listen? It was a great, great thrill
after, say, spending a week in some God forsaken whole dying to
come back and have a ball on a Sunday.
It was mild. Because you knew each other, it
was a kind of helpful for you then.
That's why playing Moriarty and me playing good, Faxton and
Eddie playing it. We all used to have this thing
going. Oh, there'll be two Min and Hen.
Yeah, yeah, More Blue Bottle and Eccles.
Yes, they both knew each. Other they did send to each
other. There was others responses.
Yeah. Was it together?
The interesting thing about that too was that Eccles and Blue
Bottle or Min and Hen, they all have their own separate
reactions to each other as as institute.
I said at the top of this that I thought that it was.
It was one of the really very important interview with Peter
and we've we've touched on the idea that the idea, the reason
that Peter was so fluid and so honest.
I want to say in in in speech marks is because he was talking
to to Marty, because he liked Marty and a fellow comedian, you
know, and was and was giving these wonderful answers to
questions and they were having a really I thought they were a
really good time together. You know, I, I really enjoyed
that that chat between the two of them understand his comedy.
Yeah, I'd love to have seen the full, the full interviews.
And we we get more of it towards the end of the show, right at
the end. Marty says he he always felt
that he was a child of the union of Take It From Here and the
Goons. Yeah, yes, absolutely.
And he felt the goons were doing the show for their own
enjoyment. Yeah.
Yeah, well that was always the case, wasn't it?
That was Peter was a was a great example of that was said he'd
have a lousy week, but he knew that on a Sunday he would have
the greatest time in his life because they'd go and record the
show and I. Was I was watching this?
I was thinking, I wonder when that was that interview was
recorded because thanks to Get back, we know because of
Ringo's. Oh yes, that's right.
Timetable that this that that. Filming of Magic Christian began
around February 69, and it certainly looks chilly, but I
managed. I managed through some clever
detective work. You know you're like Hercule
Poirot. I know the exact day that that
interview was recorded. Oh, go on.
It was Monday the 10th of March 1969.
Not just the 10th of March, Monday the 10th.
Monday and it was at Henley Station.
Henley on Thames. I've just got Henley so I'm not
sure, is there another? Is there a Henley as well as a
Henley on? Thames, I'm not sure possibly,
but yes, I just Henley. Henley will do for now.
That's OK. Yep.
We hear a a bit of a clip from a Goon show, which was the episode
I'll met by Goon Light. Oh, OK.
And Salas again says he, you know, he says again, he'd never
had such a happy time as working on the Goon Show.
Yes. And he's talking about the
characters as almost like actual human beings.
Well, I think that's probably right, isn't it?
I think that they were very real to him.
You know, the characters that Spike creative array.
What, what, what maybe that's different.
I think the the the characters that that Spike created were
fine on the page, but then became what they became because
of those, because of Peter's involvement.
He then became those characters and couldn't, you couldn't
accept them as anything else. What was that whole thing about?
But Harry used to do a couple of other voices as well, but they
all sounded like Segan, you know?
So consequently, he just kept on that character and everybody
else did all the other voices. Well, I think a part of that is
the fact that he can then become, right?
That's I'm not doing this. I'm not doing this one anymore.
I'm doing this character. And then he creates a whole new
thing for it. So he's enabling him to go
right. I'm, this is a completely
different character. I'm completely absorbed in this.
I'm completely absorbed in that one.
And they and they became such extraordinary characters.
But I do see what he's saying. And most importantly, John, most
importantly, I am not being Peter Sellers.
Precisely. You see, no, he's not being
Peter Sellers being somebody else, because he can't be Peter
Sellers because he doesn't know who Peter Sellers is.
Very deep. The only reason we know when
he's being Peter Sellers is when he's being married.
Yes. And then leaving the bride some
20 minutes later, you know, but. That's that's another moving on
to the next one, Marty. Marty makes the point that
retrospectively, the goon show is is seen as a a breakthrough
show, like a game changer. But he says that it would, of
course, it wouldn't have felt like like that at the time,
which Sellers acknowledges. Yes, he says something about
just. Doing it.
If if they thought they were doing something revolutionary,
it would have killed it from the word go.
Yeah, absolutely. Because it just, it was a stream
of unconsciousness for a period of time, wasn't it?
And it just got they they they went, they did whatever they did
in the week. They arrived on a Sunday, they
did the show. They had a huge fun with it and
people started loving it. But if they really thought about
it as much as Spike thought about it, and that's the
interesting point because, you know, Peter and and Harry, they
weren't involved in the writing of anything.
So Spike hugely involved in everything.
He, he eats, sleeps and does the whole 9 yards with this script.
He's created the whole thing from start to finish.
And he thinks, when am I due to have a nervous breakdown?
I'm going to book one in for this period of time.
But of course, all they have to do is go, oh, this is wonderful.
And just absorb themselves in it.
So I, I do see what he's driving at.
Yeah. Yeah, and we'll return to
sellers soon. But but Marty moves on.
He talks about starting out writing for radio.
I love this. But he said, he said sometimes I
was paid money, sometimes overcoats.
Overcoats. I was the best dressed, worst
paid writer in the business. Yeah, I like that.
And Peter Brough is it this? Is it this textile?
Get me? Started Peter Brough at a
textile factory Well. Because he, because he retired
Archie, because he's Peter Brough is the ventriloquist
behind Archie. I think Andrews, yeah, Archie,
Andrew. I think the word ventriloquist
is used really loosely. Yes, yeah.
Educating Archie Guy. But he retired Archie in 50, No,
in 61. And then he, Peter Brough, went
to work at his family's textile factory.
That's right. I believe so.
We see him there when Marty's interviewing him and he's
talking about, right, Marty's talking about writing for the
Archie TV show in the late 50s. He talks about looking through
the door into one of the dressing rooms at one point.
And Irene, he handles, and they're talking, talking to the
dummy like it's a real person. Like it's a real person and you
could sit. But The thing is, if you close
your eyes, you could see Irene. You're doing that.
Can't. You.
Well, I can imagine 30 years later, Irene, he handled doing
the same thing with Metal Mickey.
Exactly. It's exactly the same thing.
I mean, she's just, if it's in the room, she's going to talk to
it. Yeah.
You know, Have you been my love? All right.
Yeah. Look lovely, don't you?
Yeah. And of course, Peterborough
can't resist bringing out Archie.
Oh God, you just want to punch that puppet in the face, don't
you? And he does this little routine
and you can see his lips moving. See.
His lips moving. I mean, not only.
I mean, this is the point, right?
There are ventriloquists. I've seen ventriloquists.
There are vent acts that you go, that's really clever.
And I've, I've done my absolute utmost to try and do.
There's a, there's a course that there's a number of
ventriloquists do and it's on online.
You can go online and on YouTube and you watch them and they all
do similar things where they go through the alphabet and they
replace certain letters for other letters because the sound
is similar, right. So you can't, you can't say
that, but you can't. You like P will be replaced with
D, but you do it in such a way that you can get away with it.
And so I've tried over time and it's hugely complicated to to re
educate the inside of your mouth to do it in a different way.
But there are vent acts out there and you go, this is
magnificent. Absolute.
You watch them. They are the head and the vent
is right next to them. And then the lips are not moving
You. Yeah, you see the throat moving,
but you're bound to see that happening.
But they're really, really very, very good.
Yes, but but this Isn't this this?
Well, no, this is the problem is that, you know, Peter Brough has
thrown caution to the wind and thought, well, I used to do it
on the radio, I can do it on the telly.
Nobody's going to be, they'll be going to sort of.
And he just keeps opening his mouth when he.
I love those. I think the, the, the the Topper
for me, if you like this whole sequence was he's doing this
terrible act in front of Marty Feldman and in the background
you can see all these women working in the factory.
That's right. Not even bothering to look up
that they, they don't give a damn about it.
That's they're totally indifferent to.
Heard it all before, it was bad then, it's bad now.
You can just imagine Peter Brough every day walking around
the factory with Archie, checking up on the work and
doing doing the ACT. Trying to keep his hand in, so
to speak. Yes, exactly.
Yeah, that's right. Yes.
I'll bring Archie around. It'd be fun.
Oh dear God. Don't put the puppet on please.
Instead of a bonus this year, love, we're going to we're going
to give you an impromptu Archie Andrews concert.
Oh. You lucky people.
So Marty then says he thinks one of the greatest double X of all
time is Morecambe and Wise. Quite right too.
And we see a clip, a black and white clip of of the boys and
then Eric, who sits like he's he's outside his house.
Like he's not letting Marty in. It's like he's he's about to put
his keys in the front door and Marty's kind of door stepped him
or something. Exactly.
Can I just ask you about the Watchtower?
Just arrived on his doorstep now.
A different kind of smoking here, I might add.
Eric's got a. Pipe on pipe, yes.
Because and was when was this year?
He might have been 2-3 years later.
He was voted Pipe Smoker of the Year of.
Course he was. Yeah.
So, yeah, but and he, he makes some reference to Gracie Fields
and I didn't catch the end of it.
Did you catch the end of it? I didn't make a note of that.
I just. I, I, I jot it down.
He talks about the evolution of the stooge.
That's right. Yeah.
And. And it kind of says that he and
Ern are both. Ernie's not a stooge because
they've both now become personalities and and he talks
about starting out in 1937, which was the year that Marty
was born. Wow.
Although Eric doesn't look that much older.
No, I must say that, I mean, Eric looked very well in that
picture, even though admittedly he had that.
He'd already had a couple of heart attacks in 1968, but after
he had another couple of heart attacks a couple of years later,
by the time he died, he did look very, very old, you know, in
respect of that. But but yes, saying that when
they were Morecambe and Wise, as a double act, Ernie could be
used as the stooge. He was the straight man.
But because he then became Ernie Wise and Eric became Eric
Morecambe, who were Morecambe and Wise.
Then he said, well, you can't do that anymore because he's
actually a known person, a known individual.
Well, we've now both become personalities.
Yeah. Yeah.
But I mean, a few years ago, but say about 9 or 10 years ago, we
were just gag men. He was a straight man.
Yeah. And he fed me and I did the
comic line, you know, And that was it then.
Did you ever work separately before you worked together?
Only before we met, yeah. As juveniles, yeah.
I started out in about 1937 with the That's true, yeah.
With on clubs working men's clubs up north in Lancaster.
I remember playing up north, all these stage hands used to try to
terrify everywhere you'd go. They'd say if you can please in
heat, please. Go well.
Yes, or there are a lot hardest lot in England.
I'm not standing up for Grace, you feels I'm not standing up
for you. Yeah, it's true though.
But Glasgow always definitely grave, you know, comics
graveyard. Oh, I used to be ill when the
Telecom came in, go to Glasgow and we did well there, we all
did well there, walked off to our own footsteps.
But we always did well. You know the fireman once said
it. They're getting to light you.
And we died. They're getting to light you, I
said. What do you mean?
He said. They never sheltered.
It's true, Their obsession, of course.
When they started, at first they were They were inspired
enormously by Flanagan and Allen.
Yeah, yeah. You know, and there are
recordings of which Eric had said on, on a, on AI think it
was a Parkinson's show that there's there's evidence of, of
recordings of them at home sounding American.
You know, they've got like American accents and try almost
intimidate, intimidate, imitating, I beg your pardon,
Flanagan and and Alan in their in their early acts.
So that's how the inspiration went.
Kept to Marty chatting to a very young dark haired Barry.
Took Barry. Took yes who?
I think it looked like that from birth.
His yes. His company writing partner
smoking, by the way. Yes, yes, Marty says that.
Marty says that Barry was the architect of the scripts, and
Barry says that Marty was always prepared to abandon things that
weren't working, even if they'd spent like days working on
something. Yeah, if it didn't feel right,
then there's no point pursuing it.
Marty said he he worked on a purely instinctive level and at
this point Barry would have been marshaling together the nascent
Pythons. Yes, I suppose he would.
Yeah, for that, for that extraordinary meeting at BBC
Television Centre. Yeah.
But they said, will there be, will there be guests?
Oh, Oh yes, there might be guests and, and and will there
be musical numbers? Well, is it very possible
musical impossible, right? Well, just go off and and and
and and deliver 13 episodes, right?
OK, never anything like it in your life.
And Matthew talks about solitary writers who collaborate with the
world and are always asking others what they think of their
work. He says you spend more time with
your writing partner than you do with your wife.
That's right. Yes.
Earlier on as well. I, I passed over it.
He mentioned that thing I, I quoted right at the top of the
show about comedy being like sex.
And. And at this point, though, he
says it's embarrassing, telling your bad ideas to a stranger.
It's like taking all your clothes off as someone you don't
know. Yeah.
With a writing partner, you don't mind being mentally naked.
Whether I want to have images of Barry Took mentally naked, I'm
not so sure. Or Marty for that matter.
Yes, keeping his glasses on for Barry.
And of course, how, How could you not have Dennis Norden?
In Dennis Norden and. Frank Muir?
Well, Frank's not there. No, Frank's not there, but that
was because it was that right. The writing partner with Dennis
Norden and and smoking, obviously, you know, so smoking
just a good old. If there's a trait that happens
through the whole thing, it's the smoking episode.
This one, it is there. There was a moment where he he
was watching one of his own episodes with his wife Loretta
the dog and I assume his agent, but I could I couldn't find the
name of his agent. Did you?
I couldn't work out who that bloke was.
No, I thought it was his agent, but maybe I wasn't mistaken.
But Marty's watching this programme, He's watching Marty
on TV basically, as you do. They're laughing and he's Stony
faced, isn't? He yes, well, it's that thing,
isn't it? It's that I'm trying to decipher
who it might have been Orson Welles.
And it was Orson Welles who said, you know, can you watch
your own movie script? No, not really.
Why? Because, well, I'd want to, I'd
be able to just pick fault with them the whole time.
And I'd do the much better if I had the opportunity to do.
Maybe that's, you know, what Marty's talking about there and
and looking at and thinking I shouldn't have done that.
Maybe I should have done that. Which makes the whole idea of,
you know, you've created something very special.
You've gone through the whole writing thing, you've recorded
it, you've done the location shots, you've done the whole 9
yards. But then you're watching it
thinking, oh, I should have done better.
Like I just like a, like the whole thing would be just like a
miserable experience. Unless you really thought, well,
bugger it, that was great. Let me do it better next time.
Let me create something different.
Yeah, I'm sure he's not alone in terms of comedians or comics not
liking watching themselves. Yes, exactly on the.
Screen sellers in particular. Oh well, yeah, although as you
were saying on the show the other week, chances are that
he'd he'd watch Mr. Topaz quite a bit.
Yeah, you know, interesting that isn't it?
Yeah, Marty says. By the time I see a show on the
screen, it's irrelevant because of I've already moved on to the
next thing. Exactly.
Yeah, you see him filming a sketch as well on a on a street
with Warren Mitchell. Yes, that's wrong with Warren
Mitchell. 2 millionaires playing football on the street.
Yeah, they arrive in their in their Rolls Royces, their
respective Rolls Royces, and then jump out with the ball and
then one of them stands in goal and then the other one starts
shooting. But there is a couple of
interesting things if you look at it from a filming point of
view. And the gag itself is actually
quite nice. I have seen the the the sketch
of the the whole sketch and it it it does it goes on quite
well. But from a, from a film making
point of view, they drive in on one take, they get out of the
car and they stop almost immediately.
And Warren Mitchell is one of the first people to say no, no,
no, no, this is all wrong. It's not right.
And that there's something's wrong about the whole thing.
Is it the positioning of of, of the goal posts?
Is it the, the, the cars are too close together?
Something very, very, very, very minute.
But it's changed the beat of that particular moment enough
for them to go. No, no, let's do it again, you
know, but it's it's quite an entertaining watch to to to look
at them creating this thing and then and then shooting.
Goals at each other, with all these kids on the street, with
all these. Kids on the street, yeah.
Yeah, yeah. There's a football, there's a
just before that, isn't he? He's part of a celebrity 11, I
think maybe a variety club football thing, and that's
shooting and scoring in a match somewhere.
Just after going back to speak to Dennis about writing for
films, we're back on the set of The Magic Christian.
Yes. And you see, well, you hear Joe
McGrath, the director, the unmistakable voice of Joe
McGrath. And, and you get a glimpse.
It's, it's the scene, of course, where you've got the hot dog
vendor. And the hot dog vendor in the
film is played by Victor Madden. But I'm telling you now, the guy
we see as the hot dog vendor is not Victor Madden.
It's not Victor Madden, unless I'm very much mistaken, so I
don't know whether they had a stand in or or a stunt hot dog
vendor. Well, yeah, I mean, I thought
that looking at it. But then although the train is
moving and there is a moment and it's only a brief moment, but
there is a moment where the the hot dog vendor and his hot dog
cart is attached to the side of the train, enabling them to get
the shot that they're looking for, you know, because it's a
fixed camera position. So it may well have been a stunt
double. I don't have any information
regarding it to say who it was. So it could have been a stand
in, but very clearly, you know, it's about that.
It's it's one of those scenes. How much did how it's out.
Yeah, just a moment and it goes off and yes, looking and the
idea that he's looking for money and the trains pulling away.
But yes, Victor Madden attached to the side of the train.
It's a nice on location piece I must say.
Yeah, Marty says one of the reasons that British comics fail
at the cinema or, or many fail at the cinema is they don't
understand the mechanics of film making.
And given an unsympathetic director, they're absolutely
lost. The ones that do succeed have
taken the trouble to learn the technique.
And Sellers, of course, who loves his gadgets and technology
and whatnot. You see Sellers talking about
things like film equipment, like these new Italian dollies.
Yes. Dolly, Dolly cameras, Dolly
cameras. Yeah, yeah.
And he's talking about a film that he he'd recently made where
filming was difficult just due to the cumbersome equipment.
And then he looks at the camera and says go and see LSB Turkless
folks. Which I think he'd disowned the
film by that point, but who knows the.
Equipment was incredible, absolutely incredible.
And so they didn't have any of these new little Italian dollies
or whatnot with tiny tracks going through doorways.
They had these huge things that people do, these guys.
And you know, you used to have to try and do shots getting out
of cars. Doing.
This. And instead of, you know,
putting it on a crab Dolly and zooming back like every it's
common practice now. And we were sitting for hours, I
mean, waiting. And I said, why don't you
fellas? So the lighting camera was very
bright. He said, don't ask me nothing to
do with me. You know.
Anyway, go and see Alice V Tuckers, folks.
It's you'll never notice it on the film.
It's it's extraordinary to to to think that, you know, that
something as simple as a Dolly track, what used to be a Dolly
track, and then they combine the two things to become a Dolly
camera with its own track, you know?
Yeah. Enable it to go from point A to
point B and that and that. And similarly, people who
understand film and maybe are not understood as much.
Jerry Lewis is a great example of this.
And the Mersch group. I know we've touched on the
Mersch group in the past, but of course, Jerry Lewis is often
regarded and and quoted as being the individual that suddenly
discovered the whole idea of, of having video playback for a
take. Instead of having to wait for
rushes to, to come back, you know, send the film off to come
back. He would have his own video
camera adjacent or next next to the actual film camera.
So we would have an idea of what that was.
Well, what Blake Edwards did on the Party in Point of fact, with
with help of the Mersh Group, was to develop with, with
Panavision a camera that had you're taking film with this
camera, but on the side of it is video equipment then being sent
an image being sent to a television monitor.
So you could do exactly the same thing, but that's only
understanding the film. You know, when you understand
the concept of the film, which I think is what Pete's driving at,
when you understand the concept of film, then you think, I can
do this and I want to be able. This will make things much
better. And I think when you know, Jerry
Lewis and and Blake Edwards importantly have created this
between the two of them and come up with something new, which is
what he's driving at. Recognising the possibilities
rather than the limitations. Absolutely, yeah.
What can I do instead of this is all it does?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I see that.
And I think Marty asks Sellers about if he misses performing in
front of an audience, and he says he doesn't miss, you know,
not having an audience when working on films.
And he he talks about a film. He doesn't mention it, but it's
kiss me stupid that he. That he didn't do.
He did. That he.
Didn't do it. He was talking about.
Billy Wilde, wasn't it? Yeah, and Wilde, we encourage
people onto the set while filming, and he didn't like that
at all. No.
No, it's interesting, isn't it? Yeah.
To, to, to be allowed to be given so much leeway by certain
directors and then others go no, no, just say the words.
Could you imagine Kubrick allowing members of the public
just to? God.
Turn up and. He would spend 20 minutes
arguing to people about have you, haven't you already had a
tea break? You know, we just get the shot
done. Well, we've gotta have a tea
break of, you know, bloody hell yeah.
And then back to Eric Morgan. Back to Eric.
Yep, talking about the irritations of films or making
films because too many close-ups and sort of this fragmented
filming style which. That's what he was driving at
with the American audience. Yeah, from the films.
They wanted loads of of close-ups of the two of them.
Yeah. And not enough master shots so
they can actually do the do the little bit of business that they
wanted to do. It kept cutting away.
And he was obviously mentioning there that you, if you do that
in camera, then you, you, you lose what's going on.
They didn't do as much of that on, on the television show, in
point of fact. Well, they, they, they'd
obviously learnt from that. And, and a great many of those
sequences where there is a great deal of physical business is in
either a long tracking shot and they're following one of all of
the characters from point A to point B or occasionally it's cut
from a couple of other cameras. But very rarely do they do
close-ups which the American audience were very keen on.
And then finally back to Dudley. I was working on a television
thing once, a comedy thing, and the director was saying to an
actor apart from Peter and myself, you know, do this, do
that. And I knew actually, I, I felt
very strongly that this wasn't going to pull off the point that
we wanted to make. And I said, I don't want to
interfere, but, or rather, I do want to interfere, but that
doesn't seem to me as if that's going to make the point.
And he said, no, you know, I'm directing this.
Fair enough. And then I sort of let my
anxiety about it say it again, you know, and I said, you know,
I really feel that that's just not going to work.
And and of course, it created a great deal of rage and
frustration in me and a lot of ill feeling, I think, between
us. But it's that sort of situation
I want to avoid. It's I'm going to, you know, do
a film where if I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but where I can set it
up, you know, shot by shot. I'd like to sort of map out each
shot and and do it that way. I think that's what I want, that
control. Marty's closing remarks that
basically he says someday he would he would like to direct a
film. And we see him and Loretta in
their new home. And then over the credits, as
the credits roll, Marty says, I'm already starting work in my
first film as a writer and performer.
I've no idea where it will lead and I don't really care.
I'm doing what I want to do and that's enough.
Well, there we go. And that film was Every home
should have one. Every home should have one,
right? Which began shooting the first
week of August 1669 and screenplay by Marty Norden and
Tuk. Right, of course, the
powerhouses Norden and Tuk. Yeah, and we all know every home
should have one. It's it's Christmas Day viewing
most, most years, isn't it? Who hasn't seen it lately?
Hands up. All right, put your hands down.
Fair enough. So that's that.
Really great documentary. Huge fun and so much packed into
45. Minutes yes, absolutely.
I would like to think that there was probably what hour and a
half maybe a bit more and they've they've really had to
hack it down to bits to get it to a sort of 45 minute thing.
But it would be lovely if there's if there's a a longer
version knocking about or somebody, yeah, just to get
their hands on it. But but the seller stuff is
wonderful. Yes.
I really think that that's one of Peter's best moments.
He's almost as though he's they're oblivious almost to the
camera being there. It's just the two of them
chatting. And that's what you want.
You want that sort of Marty respects Peter, Peter respects
Marty. They're just having a bit of a
chat about this whole thing. And in fact, all of those
individuals involved, you know, Barry took and, and Dennis
Norton and, and all of those just, it's like we've captured a
moment between the two of them and they're just explaining
this, chatting about stuff and making comparisons.
It's really, really compelling viewing.
So and I think it's still on also on YouTube, but it's also
on the iPlayer, yes, if you've got the BBC iPlayer, so check
that out as well. Yes, I'm just thinking, you know
what could have been? Could you imagine?
I hate to use the phrase but like a buddy movie comedy in the
70s with Sellers and Feldman. Sellers and Feldman, wow, look
well, he'd he'd, he'd have had a go at Loretta, wouldn't he?
Very clear, please. Nobody's wife was safe, though.
When Sellers know about, I think that I think there would, there
would have been a very interesting writing process
where, you know, Marty would have taken a bit of writing.
I don't think Peter would have taken any part of the writing
whatsoever. He wouldn't have mind being
involved in a project, but I don't think he would have wanted
to take any part in the writing of it because the words, as we
all know, are kind of secondary to the immediacy of the
performance. What am I trying to do here?
Or you've got to get from this point over here to over there
and see these lines along the way.
Right. Let me cross that bridge when I
get to it. That's what Peter would have
done. But, you know, if, if Joe
McGrath had have been directing, they'd have probably let him get
away with it. If somebody else had have been
directing, well, it'd have been a fallout, you know?
I'm I'm thinking in this fictional scenario, Mel Brooks.
Brooks Yeah. Well, you know, in that case, I
mean, Mel did a fair amount of ad libbing himself, you know,
and Marty was not. There's some some of the great
moments in Young Frankenstein are things that Marty just comes
out with off the top of his head, as many of them did.
There are there are the words, but there's also those other
moments that just go, oh, that's genius.
Keep that in. Although for me, the best line
in Young Frankenstein will always be he was my boyfriend.
He was my boyfriend, Yeah, Felt bluker.
Bluker. Horse in the background.
Love it. Before we started recording, you
mentioned that your dad who's of advanced age.
He's indeed. Yes, he's 92.
Goodness me, well done. You said that you watched the
Marty show with him. Yeah, and.
What was his thoughts? Well, he, as I say, advancing,
he's 92. He stopped paragliding.
He's decided that's probably for the best.
What were his balance issues and various bits and pieces.
But he was familiar with Marty and and, and one of the the
things he said was he's memory not being the greatest, but he's
good with faces. And if you're going to identify
somebody, Marty's face is probably one of the best places
anyway. Where have I seen him before?
And I said, oh, young Frankenstein.
He went young Frankenstein. So I had to show him pictures of
young Frank. Oh, him.
Yes, that's right. Right.
OK. And so we started watching the
whole thing and apart from going smokes a lot, doesn't he?
Which he does, which is a general.
Yeah, that's true. He said he looks funny.
He's got a funny look. And, and I think that's
important, even though, as we touched on earlier, the idea
that Marty may have considered himself to be an intellectual,
very well read, but he has a funny look.
And dad, of course, remembers educating Archie very well and
wasn't familiar with the idea that that Marty had written for
him. And because we had this
conversation about, well, you know, educating Archie man on
the radio, he said, that's right.
And so we, I managed to find some footage of Archie on
YouTube with Peter Brough and we showed it.
And I said, that's Peter Brough. Who's the, who's the
ventriloquist there? Look.
And he said, oh, right. He said, Ara's lips supposed to
be moving. I said, well, no, not really,
But he's, he's come from the radio, you see.
So it's difficult to make that transition.
Oh, OK, right, fine, fair enough.
Well, you know, understood. But he understood who Marty was.
And then there was a couple of there's a couple of compilations
and they're really well worth checking out actually on on
YouTube. And Marty Feldman from his TV
show in full fled action, you know, throwing himself a lot
like he wouldn't believe. And dad was rolling about
laughing. So I mean, it's still, it's
still ticks boxes now, you know, if you want physical humour
going back to those people like Buster Keaton, like the Harold
Lloyd, like the Charlie Chaplins, Well, Marty could have
encapsulates all of that in a, in a, in a different way.
He, he's got a funny look about it, but he's, he's, he
understands that. And what he does is he, he, he
takes that and then pushes it to a different place and creates
different characters and scenarios and uses it to the
best of his ability. And we, you know, the dad hadn't
seen this stuff. I don't think he'd seen the
television show at all. And so watching that and
thought, but this was really laughing, tears rolling down his
face. And that's that.
And that's the type of physical humour.
He's a huge fan of Dave Allen. They dad's always loved Dave
Allen, particularly those those sketches that he did, those
lovely moments, something simple like it was a it was the church
thing and they were polishing the they were cleaning the
windows and the the stained glass and, and, and he polished
the windows and the stained glass was cut.
The stain was coming off the glass, you know, so howls of
laughter. But that's the that's sort of
physical humour. But yeah, no, he enjoyed it
enormously and I think I'm going to show him Sherlock Holmes,
smarter brother and yellow beard as well, which I think he would
not, he would like enormously. Yeah, there's, there's boobies
in that there. Oh well, you know, you've got to
get your kick somewhere these days.
So, John, so thank you for coming back to talk about this
wonderful documentary. Absolute pleasure man anytime.
Give me a shout. I believe you've been spending
much of your time in the last few months sitting in airport
departure lounges. Sitting at I just, you know,
it's one of those things where if, if you'd said to me 30 years
ago, do you know, you're going to be, you're going to be
jetting off to exciting locations to do bits and pieces.
I wouldn't have believed it. But yes, at the start of the
year in February, I was off to Los Angeles to cover the Taurus
World Stunt Awards, which were the awards and still are the,
the, the foremost awards for stunt professionals in the world
where, where it's film particularly.
And so the idea was that they needed recognition and the Red
Bull and the, the guy who created Red Bull, a guy called
Dieter Matashitz was the guy who was responsible for all of this
and said, yes, let's do that, Let's create an award, which
they did back back in 2001. It's still going now.
And this year I got an opportunity to go onto the red
carpet and interview some folk and the, the, the world's, the
world's great stunt performers and then go in and see the show.
So that was huge. And what was even more exciting
from my point of view, we, we were all in there watching the
show. They've created an award for a,
a Stunt icon award. They've always had a lifetime
achievement, but that normally goes to a performer or a
coordinator and this year was no exception.
But then they created a new award called the Stunt Icon
Award and it was presented to Arnold Schwarzenegger and his
stunt. 11 of his stunt double s came out on the stage to pass
this this information on and to tell the world that, you know,
this year's recipient is Arnold Schwarzenegger.
The room then went black. A spotlight went in the corner
of the stage and the big bugger walked out on stage and the
whole room went bloody hell. It's just unbelievable.
We didn't know he was coming. And there he was.
And he gave a a very passionate speech about how important stunt
performers are and, and how they are the the bread and butter of
the business. And then ended with those 3
words, I'll be back. And then went off and it was an
extraordinary experience. So that was huge fun and I got
to do lots of interviews while I was out there, so it was great
working. Not.
Not hardly though, I guess. I guess.
No, sadly, no, no, he was in and out like a rat of a drain pipe.
He arrived and then was shot out the other side and put into a
car and driven off at speed. But I dare say that if you've
got a couple of drinks down him and threw a cigar in his
direction, he'd probably want to stay in.
Do you know have a chat? The way you were building that
up, for a moment I thought that the recipient of the Stunt Icon
Award would be was was going to be you.
You know, in an ideal world I've had this dream.
I think it's safe to say I wander out on stage and people
are going, who's the bloke in the ill fitting tuxedo?
Oh, it's him. Is it a good grief?
And the carpet slippers, the. Carpet slippers and the and the
Radio Times under his arm. Yes, that'll be me then.
Oh, he's getting an award. Oh, for bless him.
Go on, let him say a few words and then tell him butter off.
So yeah, huge fun. And so it was a a really good
working trip that was terrific. And then and then I went off to
Sweden. I do part of a a Film Festival
out there called the Light till Dark Film Festival in Irbrew in
Sweden. Happens every year.
They started as sort of a horror based, but they branched out to
a whole bunch of different genres now.
And in fact, just the other day on May the fourth, they showed
Spaceballs, which hadn't been shown for quite some time on
cinema there. So they they had a screening of
that. And it's it's terrific that they
they do, they do some great work.
New film makers coming through who want to show their their
short films and, and maybe get bigger work because of it.
And yeah, so, so that was that was huge fun.
So it's, it's all been a bit of a whirlwind.
The first part of 26. Very good.
Very. Isn't Spaceballs 2 meant to be?
Spaceballs 2 yes. Yeah, I've got some.
I don't think that's a good idea.
Got some reservations about that because you you tick so many
boxes during the first film, you know?
Well, do you reckon? Well.
I re watched it recently after 30 years or whatever. 40 years
maybe. Did it not land in the same
places? Let's move on.
It's it's been a joy mate. Thank you very much.
No, thank you John and check out behind the stunts everybody, of
course. And thank you for listening.
And yeah, it's available as as John says on YouTube on the
iPlayer and well worth 45 minutes of your time.
Oh yes, yes. So until next week, bye.
If you want it, here is come and.
Get it? Make your mind up fast if you
want. Anytime I can give it much
better hurry 'cause it may not last.
Did I hear you say that there must be a catch?
Will you walk away from a family's money?
If you want it, here it is, come and get it, But you better hurry
'cause it's going fast. If you want it, hear it us, come
and get it. Make your mind go fast.
If you want it anytime I can get it, but you better hurry 'cause
it may not last.