Yes, this week we're in for a bit of a trip, but I'm sure that
they've got the title wrong. In my mind it was the last tram
down Kingsway. I don't know Clapham.
I hadn't been abroad in those days, but this is one of my
favourites that the Spike and I wrote together and we had many
of us laughing, especially about the the trams.
Trams are trams are comedy vehicles.
Get off you. What?
What?
And if somebody says you want a vehicle for a next show, I'd say
tram straight away and that's why I was committed.
Any more questions? Good.
Hello and welcome to your weekly visit from the Goon Pod.
My name is Tyler Adams and this week we're talking about another
Goon show and I'm joined for the first time by a guest Down
under. It is Andy Bell.
Good day. How you going?
Andy very, very good to have you on the show and this must be a
great disappointment to any fans of Eurasia listening.
You're not that Andy Bell. No, you're an Andy Bell An.
Andy Bell. I'm neither that Andy Bell or
the ITN reporter. Oh, I think.
Yeah, yeah, but I am an Andy Bell.
I'm in Canberra, which Spike Milligan once described as
Australia's Federal Capital, deep in the middle of somewhere.
Well, yeah. And, and I can attest to that,
having lived there briefly in the early 90s, yeah, But you're
not. Yeah, but you're not.
You're not an Australian born and bred, are you?
No, I've spent about half my life here.
Came here in bicentennial year 88.
Before that I was I was a bit of a bitzer.
More than a bit of a bitzer, actually.
Born in Lancashire, lived in the North East of England, then
London then South Wales. So I'm I have been.
My one claim to fame really is I've been the Welsh language
correspondent for the BBC in Australia for nearly 40 years.
I do quite a lot of reporting for them from here.
So that's my claim to fame. Yes, D da G Day from Australia.
I'm trying to think now, is there a, is there a large
gathering of Welsh speaking Australians in Australia?
Well, of course NSW they can be new with came about because
Captain Cook from Whitby sailed down the coast of what wasn't
anything at that point, but it became NSW and said looks a bit
like Port Talbot and round there and it and it does.
And strangely, when I moved here I went from working for the BBC
in Swansea at Harry Seacom's hometown to Wollongong, which is
exactly that part of NSW. So it was like leaving Swansea
and going somewhere else, except it didn't rain as much.
And As for elsewhere, there were 40 odd chapels, Welsh speaking
chapels in Victoria in the 19th century because of the gold
rush. And the one other thing that
Wales was bequeathed Australia, weirdly, is the word Eisteddfod.
You'll hear Eisteddfod's done a lot here as as like competitive
galas for kids and young adults. So yeah, but there are no Welsh
pubs by the way, in there are Irish pubs.
I'm a member of an Irish club here, I'm a member of a Scottish
club. But the only Welsh pub I have
found in the Antipodes is in the New Zealand capital of
Wellington. OK.
So, so Andy, obviously you and I
have been in contact for quite a while now and you wanted to come
on and talk about a particular Goon show which which is the
last tram brackets from Clapham. But I think it's easier just to
call it the last tram, I think now.
And Clapham actually does isn't involved in the radio program.
With no no. It is in the Telegoons.
There you go. I've got the T word in early.
There. Oh yeah, the Telegoons.
Well, I didn't. You know, I've done so much
research. I didn't watch that Telegoons
episode again for this. Fear not, I have looked at it in
the last six hours and it's interesting they did quite an
interesting rewrite of some. Spike was very good at
recycling. Well, it's well, that's another
issue we're going to talk about. We we, I think we both know it
wasn't Spike. It was Eric Sykes who wrote
this. Anyway.
So what's your history with with the Goon Show then?
Well, it begins with the Tele goons.
I'm so sorry everybody don't turn off because I know some
people have some very strong feelings about the Tele goons,
but I was about 4-5 years old when the telly games were on and
I they were just funny noises and funny looking things on the
telly at that time when puppets were fairly straightforward.
It was Twizzle and it was Sooty and Sweep, whom I was a huge fan
as well, Pinky and Perky, and I just liked it.
And then. And then that was underpinned by
the fact that the Goons EP, the 1956 EP You know, Ying Tong
song, etcetera, my uncle had a copy of and used to play it to
me on the Pi hi-fi at my grandparents home.
So I got to the Goon Show as a radio program through the Tele
Goons and through music which they were the sort of entry
drugs into the Goon Show because by the time I came along was
listening to radio. Goon shows on radio in the 60s
were as rare as hen's teeth and ironically had I been born in
Australia they were on every week on the slide but so that's
how I got there and as I got older 72, the last Goon Show of
all there was a lot of carry on about that.
The scripts came out. There was the obviously the
Parkinson and from memory that was RE.
There were reruns through the 60s only in clusters of a few of
the time. And I I think frankly as a
someone in their early teens, in the late 60s, the Goon Show
didn't quite chime. It's as I got a bit older and
got A to do well Entendre and they understood perhaps the the
military humor which underpins so much of the Goon Show that I
warm to it. But it I don't know about other
people. It is a bit like a frog in cold
water and the heat's turned up and you get to sort of more and
more and more except you don't get boiled to death when you
listen to the Goon show. In my case, it was It was
learning more and more about it, and even the great epiphany at
some point where I went. You know what I don't mind Max
Girl, Dre and Dre Ellington at all.
Well, the the That's gonna be my next question because I I always
ask, did you skip the music? No and and I'll tell you why.
And I don't want to deconstruct too much.
I think you'll find. Interestingly, in this episode
they use the musical breaks as a furtherance to the and I'm gonna
use a $10 word here the exposition because this is one
of the joys of this episode. It is well constructed.
Even the stretching isn't stretching.
It's actually part of the plot, the repetition of things, a
running gag, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
And that's Eric Sykes. He's a Craftsman and and this
sort of collision with him and Milligan, we'll never know.
I just feel there are bits of Milligan in it.
But you just wonder whether they emerged in rehearsal, you know,
on the Sunday morning, who knows?
But the when I started thinking about talking to you about this
show, I I went to the wonderful Genome Project online and in the
Radio Times. It's a Eric Sykes credit for the
script only. But then I found a copy of the
script which had been sold and it had both the names of Sykes
and Milligan on it. So the mystery will never be
sold, but I just feel the Sykes, Milligan relationship.
I'm amazed no one's done ATV movie about it because copyright
Tyler and Andy. Yeah, well, that's well ATV
drama about associated London scripts, even.
Actually, that could be a series, but you've got you've
got the great paperweight ashtray throwing incident
between Eric and Spike and more, and you've got good old Norma as
well. You said about the script.
You saw the script online. Was that the script that was
sold at bottoms for 192 lbs. Correct.
And it's and it's got brackets, it's got Clapham in it as well.
So as so much of the goons, what's on paper and what
actually equates to real life. A reasonably accurate facsimile,
but not always true. And that's.
Good. Yeah, I wonder as well.
I'm sure I've read it somewhere of years ago.
I've read Eric's book and that, but I wondered how much
involvement Eric had aside from actually writing the scripts.
I mean, what I mean is, on the Sundays, I wonder if you'd nip
down to the Camden and sort of run through it with them or be
involved at all, or just watch them doing rehearsals.
That's interesting because off the top of my head, even after
reading the about Larry Stevens and other stuff, there's a mist
around the whole process, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah. Because there is, there's also a
little bit of a question mark over what it was that prompted
Eric to stop writing on the show.
I noticed this. Sellers supposedly complained
about the quality of some of the scripts at one point and I think
that cheesed Eric off. Although Sellers then, I think
it was the the last show that Eric worked on which was Tales
of Montmartre. I think Sellers was on record as
saying that was one of the best shows ever or something like
that. There was there's a little bit
of again, there's so many questions left unanswered when
you when you look at it or is this?
Show structurally what's interesting is tried and true
Characters have multiple appearances like a traditional
kind of take it from Here's Gate or Hancock's Half Hour.
You know Minnie and Henry appear three times and they're in
somewhat at the pay off. That doesn't happen before.
Moriarty and Grip type thin are separated.
I I That's and and and and. Moriarty and Bloodnock are a
wonderful combination. Yeah, Moriarty, I'll pay
pontoons. Only pontoon only we're playing
chess. I thought the cards were a funny
shape. Isn't it nice though that we.
Yes a bit. Oh yeah.
Because there's all this all this information.
I mean the work that's done by the the the preservation society
and and in book form is and you is extraordinary and yet we're
still going oh what if what happened there who was that Why
did they do that? But the notion of Eric there,
I'm I'm assuming it's 54. It would be in the Camden, but I
actually went to a few recordings of Friday Night is
Music Night is a nine year old. Don't ask, wonderfully warm
house. It is odd, isn't it?
Because Spike's even if his name's not on the script, which
he did in Bollys Green. Today's announcement the the
tension there would put Harry Seekins core diplomatic plates
under quite a bit of pressure, actually.
What version of the show did you listen to?
Because I listened to the the the fully restored original
version as broadcast. Well I've I've, I've on the BBC
sounds One, which is over 30, with the most magnificent segue
out of the end credits into crazy rhythm.
I think that is stunningly good With Gildry on the harmonica
that could be a mouth organ and Ellington on the bongos.
It's just antique cats on the piano.
It's just in total fantastic. And before I forget it reminds
me one other factor in this particular show, this is a great
audience. They're laughing rapidly.
OK, it's got a we think it's got a great structure.
OK, it's funny and all the rest of it, but it's a very warm
audience and the laughs are coming a bit like a traditional
sitcom. This is only 54, isn't it?
I had a listen back. There were a few early Series 2
terrible. Recordings.
On YouTube, and this is only two years later and the difference
is a. Oh yeah, absolutely.
It's like night and day. No stargazers, thank God.
No. Well, even even Series 4, the
series before this in the same year, because this is N54.
Earlier earlier this year in 54, it was series four.
There were shows that sounded the ones that exist still they
just sound a bit flat. It's really I think from it's
it's weird. It's like Series 5 just began.
Like a dog out of a trap or whatever you want to, you want
to describe it and never look back, you know?
The alchemy, and it struck me as I was thinking about the
audience and they're laughing at things that actually aren't
funny on the page, but they're laughing at the language used of
sound, of audio, like a signposted joke about a 49 and
six minute phone call after which is played a remarkable
ringtone including the Harry Lyon theme from the Third man.
And then Siekim says answer that phone, that's not funny.
It's funny though with what came before it.
So perhaps the audience, it's attracting people to the
theatre, whereas in earlier times perhaps some of the
audience were just getting their tickets from the BBC ticket unit
in the same way that led me to Friday Night is music.
Well, it's like it's like it's like the early first series of
Monty Python's Flying Circus. Absolutely.
The audience was busted from Croydon or whatever, and you
know, they had no idea what what this show was.
There was no sort of fan base that had built up.
So, you know, I think by Series 2, Series 3, the audiences were
applying for tickets, you know, So there was an atmosphere
probably. And I talked to, I just talked
earlier about, you know, language.
But there's a language to the Goon Show.
And it's not just the language as written, it's the sound of it
and it's the lack of it's the illogical logic to it.
And if you're used to, to take it, even though take It from
here was splendidly written. But frankly, if you're used to
life with the Lions or raise a laugh or variety bandbox,
etcetera, Welsh, Rarebit, I'd love to know what that audience
looked like. Were they sort of beat Nikki
kind of types and I think probably overwhelmingly male.
Were they people who'd served in the war?
Were they national servicemen? And it's Sunday night as well
and I have boozed up all those. Well, yeah, yeah.
Half the audience is probably mates of sellers, Sikkim and
Milligan and family and a Dave Lodge.
Dave Lodge was often in the audience.
You can hear his laugh occasionally for just.
There's some wonderful recognition laughter in there,
which particularly at one point during a credits list for the
faux documentary about the last tram, which is full of in jokes
and one in particular which we'll get to.
Yeah, we'll come on to that. OK.
So it's a show that I remember listening.
I remember listening to it for the first time and I didn't
listen to these in order. I, you know, I was listening to
these as they were repeated on Radio New Zealand in sort of,
you know, there was no particular order to them.
So one week I might listen to a series, Series 7 show, the next
week a Series 8 show, then a Series 5 show.
And I remember the I can remember distinctly the first
time I heard this episode because it sounded different.
It was, it was quite atmospheric, and it just, I
remember thinking it sounded slightly different than other
goon shows I'd heard. Particularly that, you know,
there's the bit where after the the ceremony for the last tram,
it goes quiet and then there's a strange sort of metallic, wobbly
sort of harp. Ethereal.
That's the word, and I believe
that is based on the sort of music that plays.
If there's a breakdown in BBC broadcasts, I remember hearing
that and thinking that I've never heard that sort of thing
happen in the game show before. That's weird, but but it is
based on on real, on on real events.
And I did take the liberty of doing a bit of research about
the history of London's tram network.
Loving it. A short history of London's
trams The first tram began running in 1861 and the last
tram was in 1952. A slightly longer short history
of London's trams. There was a time when London had
the largest tram network in Europe.
Ah, take that, Lisbon. In 1861, an American businessman
called, ironically, Mr. Train started running a series of
horse drawn trams between Notting Hill Gate and Marble
Arch, then Westminster Bridge to Kennington Gate.
They were not ultimately all that popular with the public,
however, and Mr. Train decided that ungrateful London had tried
his patience. So he returned to the US and
tried to become president. He didn't.
Maybe he should have stuck to trams.
It wasn't until 1870 that the idea of running trams in London
again was nodded through the relevant committees and
gentlemen's clubs. And so the Metropolitan St.
Tramways Company sprang up running horse drawn trams from
Brixton to Kennington. They ran on rails, and though
pulled by horses, the passengers enjoyed greater comfort, a
smoother, less bumpy journey than they would have withstood
inside an omnibus. Some years later, cable tramways
began. In 1885 a steam powered tram was
tried out but was not a success. Wherever it journeyed the air
was rent with the sound of grinding and cranking which
drove everyone balmy. By 1900 there were over 140
miles of tramway in London and the year after the first
electric tram ran between Shepherd's Bush, Hammersmith,
Acton and Kew Bridge. Five years later electric trams
had all but replaced horse drawn ones.
It was the end of the horse Drawn's tram.
These electric trams ran by either a cable running above the
vehicle or via a conduit below. Also in 1906 and very
significantly, the Kingsway Tram tunnel opened, running beneath
the road from Hoban to Oldwich. It linked north London to South
London and special non flammable trams were built to avoid fires.
In 1909, two armed men wanted by the Old Bill for a robbery
hijacked a tram in Tottenham and forced the conductor to drive
it, the actual driver having had it away on his toes already,
police commandeered another trim and gave chase very slowly.
It lasted 2 hours and covered 6 miles, with the villains firing
400 rounds of ammunition at their pursuers.
There were quite a number of casualties for Fatal, including
the two robbers themselves. This became known as the
Tottenham outrage. By the outbreak of the First
World War, tram usage had peaked in London, with over a billion
passengers a year across 3000 trams.
They were particularly popular with London's working classes
due to the inexpensive cost of a ticket and their regularity,
ensuring ragged, trousered workers could make it to the
factory in time to breathe in noxious fumes and occasionally
lose a finger. By the 1930s, buses and trolley
buses were gaining in popularity and gradually trams began to
drop services. By the end of the war, nobody
was prepared to invest in trams anymore, so the writing was very
much on the wall. There were rumours that the
influential MP Ernest Marples had worked behind the scenes to
finally inflict the deathblow to London's ailing tram network.
Could it be a coincidence that his family manufactured tarmac
for roads and Marples was keen to promote driving?
On the 5th of April 1952, John Cliff drove the last tram from
Woolwich to New Cross. The week leading up to this
historic closing of a chapter in London's transport history had
been marked by several celebratory events.
It'd be called last tram week as driver Cliff applied the brakes
for the final time. There was an official ceremony.
The vehicle was mobbed by crowds of well wishes, tram enthusiasts
and people with too much time on their hands, and the whole
occasion was tinged with sadness and perhaps regret that it was
the end of an era. And so that was actually the
last tram. Well, since 2000 Croydon has
been running trams again, but I think it's technically Surrey,
so it doesn't really count. And now back to the show,
Welcome back. So the first thing I'd say is
that one factual error that I that I got wrong, or one one
fact that I got wrong, at least in that little short history,
was the actual date of the last tram.
Which, but you're in good company.
Well, yeah, well I because originally because I did, you
know I did, I do a bit of research originally I saw that
or I believe that it was July 1952 that the last tram ran and
then I listened to the show, the Goon Show and it said I think
5th of April 52. And so I googled 5th of April 52
and last tram and certain sources suggested it that, you
know, the last tram did run in April 52.
So I'm a bit confused, but from what you've said, to me it would
appear that no, it was definitely July, yeah.
That's what I and I've seen some newsreel and I actually had
there was as you said, the tram week has got dates from the end
of June into July. Yeah, it's weird how this
because there is information on the Internet suggesting that
April was the date, but more credible information that would
say that we'll put it at July. So it's weird, isn't it?
But anyway, so this show, what was it?
Why is it this? Why this particular show?
What was it that made you want to pick on this one?
I think as someone who's worked in radio and TV both in the UK
and Australia, I really enjoy. I'm gonna use another big word
here, so slap me. The deconstruction of radio as
it was at that time. It's not just in jokes, it's the
form. For example, the faux
documentary, the back announcement.
It's really well done. So I love that.
I also love the fact that this is a show with a prologue, a
first act. Thank L Troy a second act, and
Ellington a third act. And you could argue an epilogue
because you would think in a normal show, what does that
mean? But in a regular show?
Oh, here's Blue bottle. He's going to be deaded by the
electricity wise being put together.
But no, we were a couple of minutes away from the payoff and
the payoff is a proper payoff. And and in the last few pages of
the script, build and build and build as a good traditional
comedy. Half Hour does and it almost,
dare I say, has the momentum of a tram or a triangle.
There's a nice thing. I love the musical performances.
I love the taking the You know what out of BBC announcer slash
Richard Dimbleby voice. I also love the fact that
characters are used in ways to move the plot along, not to make
their regular appearances. Because at times there are
certain goon shows and you were talking earlier on about latest
series where they come in the same order and you can almost
mark it off your bingo card. And at times, and please don't
at me people listening. There are times when it feels
like it's it's a 20 minute show that's being stretched.
Yeah, and this one doesn't feel stretched even though there's
repetition in it. Series 5.
Particularly with the advent of Eric getting involved with the
script, there's probably the highest concentration of game
shows with a beginning, middle and an end.
Yeah. And I mean, aren't we lucky that
we can sort of talk about this Because the the the whole thing
from beginning to end is joyous. Even the last goon show of all
it's joyous because we got a glimpse of what it looked like.
It wasn't a radio program. It was ATV program, but that's
by the bypass. But this doesn't let up.
And there are lovely little moments plays within the play
and there's some Minnie and Henry batonage, you know, went
went all the way through. I've been some really good funny
lines, not just two blokes of the microphone pulling faces as
I imagined they would do. And as I stand here on the great
pavement, there goes the last tram.
That was the last tram. Those taking part with the men
of Westminster and the councillors and Eden Eagle led
the Chelsea Pensioners also taking part with the last tram
driver Nollis Lurker and conductress Madge Thund.
Leader Paul Beard. Produced by Menace.
Trained Bullshine. Script by William Shakespeare,
edited by Jimmy Grafton. Additional dialogue by Geraldo.
The hotel bill was by Gilbert Harding.
You said earlier about at the beginning of the show when they
have this, this last tram ceremony, and NETTIE is giving
thanks to all those who took part.
And this is an example of where, you know, I was for the longest
time. I grew up having heard the
transcription services edit of this show and so Nettie
obviously is. He mentions the tram driver,
Norris Lurker, The Conductress Madge, thumbed and produced by
Now I Love This Menace Strain, Bull Shine.
Yeah. No.
Points to guess no. Points for guessing who that
could be. Script by William Shakespeare.
Edited by Jimmy Grafton. So nice little name check there
for Jimmy Grafton. And in the in the, you know, the
the version that I grew up listening to, Jimmy Grafton's
name gets a big sort of whoop from the audience in a, you
know, cheers and round of applause script.
By William Shakespeare, edited by Jimmy Grafton.
But listening to the restored version, in fact it's it's a
line. It's a line that was actually
cut out I believe cut out of the actual broadcast version.
So it's been put back in. It was recorded but removed for
broadcast and Ted Kendall has managed to get this this cut
line and and and put it back in. So I don't know if you heard
this on the version you listened to or not.
I did. I I I.
I and and whoever's done the jigsaw puzzle, has been a
supreme user of the, of the, of the cutting blade, digital or
otherwise, because this, this reference.
These are references which are of the moment and and if I may
tangentially mention, when it appears the same thing is done
in the television version, it is refreshed.
You have been watching. The last tram?
Those taking part where the Mayor of Westminster, Robin Hall
and Jimmy McGregor. And of course, the last Tram
Driver, Norris Lurker and Conductress match.
Thun leader Paul Beard, produced by Menace Strain Bullshine.
Script by William Shakespeare. Additional dialogue by Ted
Willis. Miss Thun's Dresses by Miss
Thun. Wigs by Bold People.
Yes. Well, that's all for me.
So I see. Oh, I see.
Yes. Thank you.
We appear to have a little time in hand before the next program.
So here once again is the name of the last tram driver.
It is Norris Lucca. Menace Strain, Bullshine is
still there. Paul Beard is there, which is a
huge in joke for the musicians because this was a well known
BBC musician. But the the additional material
is by Ted Willis, the man who created Dixon of Doc Green
amongst other things. Yeah, and Sergeant.
So they were going for the. They were going for for the kids
in the early 60s, but William Shakespeare remained and Robin
Hall and Jimmy McGregor got a a goonzy as well for some bizarre
reason they might they white Heather Club was no doubt very
popular at that point, right Well.
Because, yes, because in the actual Goon show that we're
talking about seek him says the hotel bill was by Gilbert
Harding. Yes.
And that gets the, the reaction from the audience.
And I wondered, I could say I was trying to find, you know
what, what is that? I mean, I I was aware of Gilbert
Harding of course, but I wondered what that specifically
referred to now. Did you have any thoughts on
that? Well, he.
Was a tremendous bon Vivier. I think he's the nice way of
saying it. There's a wonderful radio four
drama about Gilbert Harding. He was this as only in the 50s
it happened. These amazing larger than life
figures who dominated the coming of television and maintained a
presence on radio. He Harding was on What's my
line? 20 questions, obviously.
Well, not obviously, if you don't know about him, but if you
find out about him, he was undone by a face to face
interview, the same series that undid Tony Hancock.
But what he was as well was a public intellectual.
You had these intellectuals, but he drank a bit.
He was a closeted gay man. And so the Hotel bill, there's
all kinds of connotations you've placed on that.
But he he lived a life, and he liked to drop.
He did. And he Yeah, as well as, like
you say he was, he was, he was closeted gay.
And and he struggled to reconcile that with his
Catholicism. Yeah, as well.
And. Obviously you know you you
couldn't be out back then if you wanted to continue your career.
Generally speaking, no. No, no, but I just.
I think the the mention of his hotel bill specifically might be
might be. There's a couple of incidents
that were kind of hushed up where look, for example, there
was a there was a an incident in Bristol when Gilbert Harding was
involved in a loud, noisy argument with a young man he
picked up somewhere. And.
One of his friends managed to go and sort this out and dealt with
the management and dealt with the the youth in question and
and I I guess money changed hands and it was kept out of the
papers and and I I gather there was a few such occasions like
that in hotels so it makes you wonder whether you know it was
common knowledge amongst you. It chime.
It chimes. Doesn't it?
It really does. And in that context of that run,
the whole run, which has got a few more in jokes, like the
reaction to men, Australian Bull Shine is a lovely reaction that
is intriguing. And from what I know of Gilbert
Harting sounds absolutely without going into the research
by itself, that sounds bang on and.
I love this. There's little, there's this
little touches in this show as well.
Little one off characters like Mr. Clench that Sellers plays.
Yes, Mr. Clench. Did you so?
Much as call me Sir. Yes.
Take your tongue off my boots. Oh.
Some fool just. Phoned up and said there's still
a tram at large in the Highgate Kingsway route.
Oh, but that is impossible Sir. All trams have been melted down
and made into melted down trams. Everyone.
All except the one you're living in, Sir.
Wait, wait. Look, the tram map on the wall.
There's still one flag pin stuck in it.
Good heavens, I had never noticed it before.
So what does it mean? It means that there is a tram
still running. According to the flag, it is a
#33. When did he leave the depot?
1952. He's running late.
He's running terribly late. Yes, and there's also.
The the new the new office person at the end that brings in
the $20,000 that Blood Knox steals.
That's again where it's a bit unusual.
You're actually and and Harry doing quite a bit of his North
Country act as the Workman and and also yeah, it it it feels a
fully formed comedy script rather than a goon show.
And I don't mean that in a pejorative sense at all.
It's got the Goon Show elements, but it's, it's been honed, it's
been crafted a bit more than sometimes because there were
times, particularly towards the end, where the memory and the
recollection were being indulged by audience and performance
alike. I think it's fair, fairly fair
to say. Not to say they weren't great
good shows, but sometimes it was a bit of coasting and they knew
that buying raspberries or just stretching a bit would get them
there immediately after that run.
Tyler I It's one of my favorite bits and it is Beyond the Blue
Horizon played by the band under Wally Stott Angela Morley in the
in the mode of a pit band of a variety theatre and the the
pausing between each rendition. Oh yeah is is musical because it
adds to the humour. You could almost feel the
audience going what the is going on here and then they get the
joke. It's the Rule of Three.
Isn't it? It's the Rule of Three, exactly
right. The
And then the weed ethereal thing.
And then dear Bill, who had amazing comic timing because at
that point all announcers had to know about music and many of
them studied music and all the rest of it.
When he goes, we appear to have a list, which was something you
heard a lot of even into the 60s.
I think it's one of Greenslade's greatest.
And I will use the word performances, yeah.
Yeah, in the in the Radio Times listing for the last tram,
there's a truncated summary, which, like you suggested
earlier, had sort of passing acquaintance with the actual.
Plot. Well, even the names are a
passing. Well, yeah, but.
I managed to get the full the full little sort of precis and
I'll just read that out now just because it's quite interesting.
It says so when? When driver Fred Krint and
Clippy Hilary Boot drove the last tram for the ceremonial
closing of the Kingsway subway, Ned Seagoon of the redundant
Tramways Department thought that all his troubles were over.
But a mysterious phone call put him on the track of a tram car
still at large somewhere in London.
How did driver Henry Cron and Clippy Mini Bannister eventually
proved that they should have had the honor of driving the last
tram? And what happened when
excavations were being made in a new block of flats in Kingsway?
And how did Major Blood Knocks suddenly become mayor of
Westminster? So yeah, more or less that's the
the plot part of it. But then yeah, the driver is
Fred Krint, whereas in the show itself it's was it Norris
Lurker. NORRISLURKE Yeah it it is.
That is fantastic. And this sounds like I have got
nothing better to do. I ran the stopwatch on this
show. It's over 7 minutes before you
get to any characters other than NETTIE.
That is. Solid setting up the show, isn't
it? Yeah, I I love the.
I'll use the word architecture. I love the architecture of this
episode. It's it's really well done.
Yeah, that's. Probably.
You know, I said earlier about how it sounded different,
particularly the beginning of the show.
That's probably what it is as well.
Probably the fact that there's there's no regular characters
apart from Ned. They're all there, but they
play. Their parts, you know, I mean,
there's. Nobody in the first 7 minutes, I
mean, but no, that's right, that's right.
And and and you've got this Dimbleby voice of of Sellers.
You've got your mate Mr. Clinch, you've got Mr. Throat, you've
got Ellington, it's Gladys. Take it easy, you're mad.
Fool your car. 'S ready, Sir.
Thank you, Gladys. Now come along, Drive.
Along the old 33 rutan honey Man right hold.
Time Get up there. She's running well.
Tonight, yeah, Consider we've got.
A load of ashes on board. Get up there.
Take it easy on my phone, you. Want to kill us both?
No, only you. Good stop here.
Gladys, we mentioned Spike there.
You've got a little bit of information about Spike in Woy
Woy. Is that right?
Yes. Woy Woy his.
His mum and dad, Leo and Flo, migrated to Australia in 51 and
Desmond, his brother shortly thereafter.
Now Woy. Woy, which Spike described as
the largest above ground cemetery in the world is on, is
an area of Australia called the Central Coast.
It's in NSW, it's to the north of Sydney and he came back a
lot. It appears he was somewhat
strange, perhaps after they went, but of course in those
days, bit like when I I first came in the late 80s, It was
Aerogram territory. He didn't make phone calls
because it was very expensive and he rode up, he he came back
and he got to do shows for what was then the Australian
Broadcasting Commission, which became the corporation in in 82.
Full disclosure, I worked at the ABC for 20 years.
And here's where. The story really starts is that
bits of this episode were recycled into a thing called
Idiot Weekly for an episode about the King's Bridge saga,
which was a scandal in Melbourne in the 60s.
And the the the one good gag that survives into as as well as
plot into that episode is all the trams have been melted down
and made into melting down trams that, but that sounds.
A Milligan line. To me, yeah.
Does it sound that to? You.
Yeah, yeah, it does, definitely. The mystery thickens, yes.
And also with Spike halfway through the show, he appears in
his own voice or sort of a variation of his, a posh
variation of his own voice, giving kind of exposition to the
audience and then saying you must watch these points a very
nice. Running gag there, Yeah, but.
But, but, but, but normally that, that that kind of running
gag would be introduced more or less after Greenslade's opening
announcement, You know what I mean?
Yes. And they all do, an announcer
style. Nettie presents the tram
ceremony, Sellers does a Dimbleby voice, and Spike
doesn't announce the voice. And Greenslade gets to be a bit
cheeky with Blue Bottle. It's it's got, it's got a
wonderful architecture, but there's a bit of anarchy going
on within those walls. Yeah, that green slide, I mean
we're going all over the place of this, but right at the end
Greenslade sort of does a blue bottle act and you blue bottle.
In the wings. Is incense and shouts, OK, he
shouts, I'll get you at playtime with Terry now.
Now it's just a throwaway line. I'll be honest.
I'll hold my hands up here. I spent about 20 minutes
yesterday trying to find out what that could be a reference
to and and at first I thought, is that is that a reference to
Terry Scott perhaps and but I checked and and great Scott,
it's Maynard didn't begin until the following year and I don't
think Teddy Scott was particularly well known in 54
and in the end I just, I think it's possibly maybe just a
reference to Spike. In other words, you know
Terry's. Terry's.
I'm correct. I think you're right there, I
tell my dad. And.
Greenslade was from Wallasey or around.
Yeah, I think so. Something.
Like that, so a little. Bit of his North Country coming
out tell my dad. I mean yeah I'm I'm, I'm just in
awe of Greenslade. I think there's an Edinburgh
Festival show based on Wallace Greenslade.
Yeah, well, it's such a weird there's such a a lack of,
relatively speaking, a lack of information about Greenslade.
And he died so prematurely, of course.
And and of course there's there's rumors as to how the
circumstances at which he died and all that sort of thing.
Which I'll brush over now, but it's such a shame, isn't it,
that he could have gone on and done bigger and better things
potentially. But no he he more or less died
with the. End of The Goon Show.
And he was a big star. I mean, he was on telly, reading
the time when telly was getting big.
There is a a haunting moment of him, I think, in that
documentary from the late 50s. This is the BBC.
And yeah, perhaps you know what I keep I said, oh, it was an
edible festival show. Someone should make a drama
about Sykes immediately. Perhaps we shouldn't know these
things and just let it play out between our ears, because we
clearly have those imaginings and they're quite lovely
imaginings. Just staying on Bluebottle as
well, he makes reference to Alan Ladd in the in the Black Knight
film, which is a shocking. Film, by all accounts.
Yeah, Well, it. Was only it had only been out a
month it would be. It was released in October 54
and it was British shot in Britain with Alan Ladd as the
title character of The Black Knight.
And it's got people like Peter Cushing, Patrick Trout and
Lawrence Naismith John Laurie. But the reason I mention it is
that I I noticed this lovely little sort of recollection by
Donald Sinden, who was then a contract star for the Rank
Organization at Pinewood, and his permanent dressing room was
in the same block as Alan Ladd's.
And I just want to just want to read this thing that Donald
Simdon said. He said Ladd bought in his
entourage a double come stuntman who bore an uncanny resemblance
to him. The double did all the long
shots, most of the medium shots and even appeared in two shots.
When he was back to the camera. The star only did 11 days work
in the entire film. He he was extremely short in
stature and unless he was alone the camera could never show his
feet because if he was stationary he was standing on a
box. If walking the other actors were
in specially dug troughs or ditches, and for anything
between, all the other actors were required to stand with
their legs apart and their knees bent.
And putting their fingers in their ear and going tinga linga
loo. Oh my Lord, because he was
notoriously short, yet he was a hero.
My brother is 10 years older than I am and he was a big hero.
My brother would have been in 54, would have been 6-7.
But this film sounds so bad it must be sorted out.
I've seen. I've seen Shane and.
Shane was all right. Shane was translated.
Into Welsh and dubbed, was it? Fun fact.
Just before S4C came in the Welsh channel HTV did 3 dubbed
films and one was Shane and it was a scandalous thing because
they got an actor to do. It's no longer with us called
Robin Griffith who did it a bit. Camp right Die Whiskey.
Yeah. We're getting really meta now.
My goodness, that's fine. That's fine.
Yeah, I want to getting back to the last tram.
Oh yes, that. 1 and great pipe thin.
In series 5, sometimes he's collaborating with Moriarty,
sometimes he's not, as in this episode, and there's a reference
to him being married because he's the the chairman of the The
Country and Town Planning Society and he's awarded the
construction of a new block of flats to his wife's brother.
Presumably been. Married.
That's a bit of a shock. Wonder what Gilbert Harding
might say? Yeah, exactly.
I don't, I'm trying to think of any other references in the goon
show's history to him having a wife.
I'm sure they probably are because neither Milligan nor I
guess Eric in this case, you know, we're particularly
bothered about continuity or you know the characters back
stories. But but also the fact, you know
we've got the civic corruption because 10,010 is submitted and
it goes to his wife's brother. It still resonates today doesn't
it Still goes on, still goes absolutely.
And there's. Also an anger against government
in this you know he's a civil servant.
Hit him. Bang, bang.
Hit him, hit him, hit him. And he gets a laugh.
And of course, we're in post war.
The war's been over nine years. These flats are emerging from
bomb sites and all the rest of it.
That is a fantastic thing that totally passed me by.
And it gets a good, you know, the dropsy gets a bit of a joke,
but it's all more, it's more a grip type.
It's a joke. It's a situation comedy joke
which is grip type Thin and Moriarty are not sitcom they're
they're well, they. Are and they aren't.
They're a. Bit ahead of their time and
yeah, you'd expect it, yeah. You you could you you could
totally expect this in a in a sitcom like you say television
sitcom with, I don't know, Raymond Huntley and Richard
Wattis and and Avril. Angus and yeah, Meg, Meg
Jenkins. Dropsy.
He mentions dropsy. I always thought dropsy was an
old fashioned name for an illness or something.
An old fashioned illness. It is I.
It's also a bung I think, OK, as we would call it in in the
Antipodes, but they they bung it but they're brown.
Envelopes. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. There's a, there's.
Another dig at because around this time they're having a lot
of digs at Churchill, yes. The sellers doing the.
Voice talking about the telegram on a couple of shows.
In fact last episode of Goonpub we talked about that but because
Grip Pipe, Grip pipe sends seeking to Blood Knot.
Because Blood Knot Will Will Do, cut price, Lord Mayor, and again
corrupt. Absolutely, he calls.
Lou Seller's Jewish character to to to hire the ceremonial robes,
but apparently Winston wants them also.
So yeah, he's getting getting a lot of stick, isn't he?
Yeah, again. Another sign this is more what
you call a traditional show, but within the Goon show world.
And as I talk and think about it and you, you talk with me, my
admiration for this program only actually grows because I'm.
I was always a bit concerned coming on here about halfway
through going, oh, it's not quite as good as you think it
is, is it? I think this is.
But now they they really, really disappoint.
They really can I tell you something as well, Just before
because we got up to where blood not gets involved and all the
all the rest of it. Then there's a wonderful moment
where Harry goes full Swansea where he says the clue refuse
and he starts cracking up. Yeah, it's very it's very Ryan
and Ronnie, it's very Ryan Davis as ma'am in our house.
I don't know if people remember that comedy show in the early
70s, Ryan Davis and Ronnie Williams, which started in Welsh
and then went into English. Bill Cotton Junior hated it, but
it was a surprising racing Screener because they had this
skit of our house and Ryan Davis was dragged up as a Welsh mom
and she would say things like, if there's anything I hate, I'm
fed up. That's what I wish.
And she would say a refuse in that very Swansea Valley, which
is, yeah, which was where I went to university and where I worked
for a while as well. And I'm very much a Swansea City
man, still, So that that wore my cockles.
They were the more common wise. They were deliberately created
as the more common wise of Welsh language entertainment.
Some people might scoff at that. They got huge audiences,
hundreds of thousands. Light int.
In UK, in languages other than English is probably a PhD ready
to be written because there's a lot of it.
Well, we'll have to fit that in. Like fit that in with the
Edinburgh show on Wallace. Yeah, it's Mike and Eric.
That's right. That's three.
Projects I've got to get cracking on.
Isn't it the the bit you mentioned?
There seek him going all Welsh it it was.
It's kind of like it's it's a fluff almost.
He he fluffs but just carries on going doesn't he?
You can't build the. Flats on the Kingsway Subway
can't build, but I've already had the dropsy from that.
Why not? There's a 33 tram down there.
Well, get it out. I want to.
I've got to. But.
But this crew refused to drive it until they are afforded
another last tram ceremony. And he.
Knows he's fluffy, but because it's got that EW.
So that crew refuse. And it's not refuse.
It's refuse, which there might not be much difference, but it
it's very funny to me. And he finds it very funny.
And incidentally, in the next week's episode, the booted
gorilla begins with exotic music and whales.
Glorious whales. I do love whales, but you rarely
see them in the fish shop these days.
He had a very interesting relationship with his native
country, Harry Seekon. I think, without getting in too
political about it, involved obviously with HTV played, sang
a lot of Welsh songs and all the rest of it, but I spent ten
years in Swansea. I can't ever remember him
visiting, but I had may have a faulty memory.
His voice doesn't. Certainly in the Goon Show he
doesn't sound Welsh and he doesn't sound his.
I suppose when you hear him interviewed you can kind of hear
the Welsh, but it's it's almost like he kind of he softened it
quite to the extent that he's kind of it's almost accentless
and I wonder whether he. Wanted to avoid getting involved
in what was the Welsh rarebits. Those kind of very indeed to
goodness look you kind of shows that were on the light program.
He did play a teacher in a film called Sumstruck.
Oh we've covered it. Which was film which was filmed
in Australia at parks where the dish was also filmed and the
dish. So it was, which is another
dreadful film. But yeah, perhaps he had a
complicated, perhaps it's a Facebook, it's complicated
relationship with Wales. But I mean he's Ned of Wales,
but a lot of the time he's talking about England, Ned isn't
he? So that's that's a good time now
we covered. Sundstrom What?
Last year, I think. And what's his name?
Harold Evans, the character. And he's from the valleys, isn't
he? And he goes to to this.
This God forsaken part of Australia and ends up rubbing
shoulders with Derek Nemo right at the end, as you do in.
Outback Australia. It's got echoes of Hancock, who
of course came out to Australia to do a series for the Seven
Network as a 10 LB Pom kind of thing, a belligerent 10 LB pom
and didn't live to see the end of the series.
I worked with a couple of guys who worked on that show and one
of them was a Gopher For Hancock, which basically meant
making sure he either didn't drink too much or when he was
getting demanding he was given exactly what he got.
But what I got from a guy was his go from one of the studio
people was it was a very interesting, difficult project,
as you probably would expect. I mean, he was a man who was
about to look into himself and unfortunately take his own life,
but who just got who? Who bought?
Who bought Hancock back to the UK, do you know?
I do not know, Willie Rushton did say.
Well, yeah. Hancock died and I think Rushton
was either out there already already or on his way out there
because of the cricket. I think yes, he's a big.
Cricket fan and. He was.
Or he agreed to accompany Hancock's remains back to the
UK. Goodness.
Anyway, that's a little bit of a downer there.
Who's your favorite character or characters in The Goon Show?
I would say blood knock, OK? I grew up around men who had
fought in World War 2 and with uncles and grandparents who had
fought in World War 1, so Blood Knock chimed.
I also like Cryptite, Thin and Moriarty.
When they are really on song, I think they're they're pretty
variable. But when they are really at the
top of their game, yeah, because there is, can I say the word,
sexual tension on this podcast. There's a tension there between
them, which is they, well, they they share the same dustbin.
That's true. That's true.
So. I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
Blue bottle, Blue bottle is and green sliders and.
Green, No green. Sliders.
No, he is a character, isn't he? So I put Green Slade in there as
well. Well, OK, if we're talking.
About sexual tension in The Goon Show.
Minnie and Henry. What's going on there?
Well, she is having a smoke on the top floor of the tram, which
is a very good joke, but which would fly by most people today.
In the olden days, Tyler, when we had double Decker buses which
you could smoke on and double Decker trams and trolley buses,
it was on the top floor that you would smoke and not on the
ground floor of the of the vehicle.
So and that immortalized. In A Day in the Life Paul
McCartney Yeah, Yes, and and. But I'm having a smoke.
Well, she was. Also, we don't quite know who's
bed she was in either in this episode.
Yeah, it's all. Happening, isn't it, at one
point? Seagoon refers to Men and Henry
as Michael Dennison and Dulcie Gray.
Who were who I? Well, they were married couple
at both actors and they were both 39 at that point.
I checked. Really.
Obviously, 'cause they for me were always sort of 65.
And they were, you know, they were amazingly.
I'm going to give you a Willy Rushton moment.
Did you know that their last stage tour was with Eric Sykes?
I didn't know. 1995. Two of a kind set in a
retirement home. Which I'm sure.
Played the hip. Hippodrome, stench, mouth or
wherever to total indifference but but they were all but this
was the thing in those days. People were old and they weren't
old at all but I guess wartime diet and all those kind of
things. But that that is an that's a
very funny line as well. What the thing?
Is the audience. Clubs, The thing is.
It it implies that because of course MIDI and Henry aged.
It implies that Dennison and Grey are similarly aged.
But I looked it up. Dulcie Grey's last role on
television was an episode of Doctors, for God's Sake this
century, You know, God Lover. And I know I only knew Michael
Dennison from mainly from the Anthony Asquith, Yes.
The importance of. Being Earnest.
Yeah, beautiful. I think we now have tangential
proof that Minnie and Henry were at least in the sight of some
gods, man and wife. Yeah, absolutely.
I love. Clippy Bannister I love.
That's a lovely little thing. Clippy Bannister.
Minnie, take the beds down. My God, why not?
I just got in. Well, stay in bed.
Now you're there, just bring my bed down.
Well, which? Which one is?
Yours, Henry. The one I'm not in Min.
Which one is that? The one I'm not in Min.
But but you're you're not in either bed, Henry.
Thank you, Michael Dennison. And Elsie Gray.
It just careens towards this conclusion of the Black Mariah
awaiting Seagoon outside the tram tunnel via Blue Bottle
deadening himself via Wallace Green Slade threatening Blue
Bottle's acts, which is a terrific bit of dramatic
tension, a return of Beyond the Blue Horizon.
It took the first time of passing and and the comedic
chops of those musicians in terms of what it sounds like and
also what they contributed to the to the audience.
Amazing, amazing. And then I just like it's got
plot committee or no committee, I'm driving this tram out.
Jump on Greenslade. On second thoughts, jump on the
trap. It's plot and it's a joke.
Fab. Fab.
Yeah. And you?
Mentioned you watched the the Tele Goons version, so how do
they? As I say, I've kicking myself.
I didn't watch it again but I have watched it previously
first. But remind me, how does that?
How does that compare? It goes, it goes.
Straight in with the grip type thin character as doing the on
the whatever the date is in April which we may or may not be
the last tram day we're going to make a special program it
includes Hold on to your chair here Tyler Live action.
There's actual pictures of trams.
Wow. Wow.
Yeah. Now how much that cost, I don't
know. But there you go.
And then there is, I was referring to earlier the the way
that this episode uses the language of radio, the telegens
intelligently uses the language of television.
Because instead of saying we seen time in hand is the phone
goes and Riptide takes the phone and he's doing one of those yes,
yes, yes conversations when things go wrong and they cut to
the chase. Those taking part we've already
heard about and and all the rest of it.
But they add Miss Thund. That's match.
The Clippy was dressed by Miss Thund and wigs and wigs by bald
people, which grips out there. There's a pause and he goes,
yes, and the phone call is brilliantly done.
The 49 and six beneath phone call and you see one of those
push button a, push button B, old fashioned phones and the
joke. Instead of whistles and the
Harry line theme and and the flatulent donkeys, it's and and
the Fuhrer is a hand putting money into the slot and there's
a a little placket, a little notice in the phone box which
says pull chain for information and and a real hand.
I take it. Yeah, absolutely.
And then, right at the end, Neddy escapes, chased up a hill.
There's like a an outline of a tram.
And you see Neddy riding on the back of a tram and a black
Mariah follows it up. And then they lose traction and
they go backwards. And at the end they say, well,
what happened? And we see a picture of a block
of flats and guess where Henry Crown and Eccles are.
They're in a lift on the outside of a block of flats, which is an
even neater way of completing the episode.
Yeah. With the bow.
With the bow? Well, there is credit there to
Maurice Wilcher, who presumed please.
Absolutely. Came up with that.
Yeah, and I. As I say, I I think it stands
alone. I mean that I have a, as I said
right at the beginning, a very warm feeling towards the Tele
goons. But I think this is done really
well. And it it it actually it re oh
goodness, it reimagines it it it it, yeah, yeah, it's the remake
and and very well. One thing I would like to
mention as well, it's coming back to this country, Australia,
is that the goons were on ABC radio with the the, I think 105
episodes of transcriptions which were on bizarre rotation, as in
New Zealand and other places. When I first came here they were
on at 12:30 on a Saturday, which is a really good slot for the
Goon show. And then in 2004, in January,
some idiot decided to take them off air.
They were on back on air. Within five months there was
uproar, absolute uproar, and they got placed then at 5:30 in
the morning, which I know to many people going, that's a
terrible slot. Australians get up early and
they still got a big audience. I used to work with the guy who
made the decision to take the goon shows off here and I was at
lunch with him literally last week and I said, Gordon, wow,
how how important were the goon shows to Radio National on the
ABC? And he paused for a moment and
he just looked at me and went Andy.
They were very important and I felt perhaps it was a decision
that might still play upon his mind.
But they continued on on ABC radio for quite a few years
after that. The trouble was in that slot
rather than the weekly slot. They were in a British comedy
slot and I'm afraid when the goons are in a bracket that
includes my word, my music. I'm sorry I read that again.
And the Navy lark, the goons can only hold that programming block
together for as long as they can.
But they obviously Spike is still thought of here.
I mean, there's a wonderful ABC doco from the 70s.
Spike Milligan takes a young look at Australia which is
rather interesting and the BBC made a doco in the 80s from Woy
Woy to Wagga Wagga and and then of course the and Spike Milligan
newscast on ABC radio in 1971 which got somebody disciplined
and and could only have happened having worked for the
organization for 20 years. It was a fairly straight laced
organization when I started working for it in the 70s.
It was effectively a public service department.
But these are the things. When they go wrong, they go
wrong spectacularly. The news in brief The Prime
Minister. Mr. McMahon arrived back in
Australia today after his overseas tour.
He told newsmen at Sydney Airport that he could not have
had more valuable discussions with both President Nixon and
the British Prime Minister. Mr. Heath?
What about Spike Milligan? But he refused to give details
of the discussions before he had spoken in the House.
What about Spike Milligan? Mr. McMahon also.
Refused to comment when asked about criticism of him by two
former ministers. Mr. Gordon and Mr. Killen and
Spike Milligan, the Prime Minister, was met.
At the airport by his two children and members of the
cabinet, including the Treasurer, Mr. Snowden and Spike
Milligan Australia. 'S National.
International airline Qantas has been awarded a trophy by the
British Guild of Air Pilots and Navigators for its safety
record. Qantas is the second Australian
airline to win the Cumberbatch Trophy.
TAA won it in 1958. The state and post office is
doing good business in the United, in the United States.
I've heard him as well. When he spent time here he had a
bit of an Aussie twang as well. He had a great deal of of
affection for this country and yeah, it quite what his role was
in this program, I don't know, but as a as a a member of the
cast, I think it's one of his most consistent performances
actually he even does. He even does unusually for
Spike, really, in in the Goon Show, he does a Jewish character
at one point. Yeah, I I.
Mean. These are different times and
those things are a bit awkward. Mind you, he Spike had his own
issues with Eric again in the late 60s with a with a program
and controversial brand called Curry and Chips where Spike
played a Pakistani of Irish heritage.
Yeah, but he was of his era, as are, as am I, as are you.
And it's wonderful that we're all brought together by this
extraordinary phenomenon. Absolutely.
Can I leave you with? With with just a notion that I I
thought about the other day. You've almost got the perfect
mix of the three major characters.
You have sellers who became an international star.
So that gave longevity to the thing in one way.
Milligan and eccentric that. Forgive me, but the British love
and eccentric. Yeah.
And Sikkim who became a national treasure.
Yeah. What a, what an amazing
combination. Yeah.
There. Yeah.
And of course, what about the early days with Ben Teen?
Do you think Ben Teen was was predestined to leave early or do
you think you know would if if things had been different and
he'd stayed with the with the group, What would the dynamic
have been like do you think ultimately I mean?
Listening through that awful audio haze of the show that it
it to me, I can see a through line to later Michael Bentine
shows and Square World and Potty Time and those kind of things.
It sort of doesn't fit. And three is Rule of Threes.
Tyler Rule of Threes. And and.
And the other little bits, the 1% and the 5%, jelled.
No Andrew Timothy but Wallace Greenslade.
No stargazers. Rae, Ellington and Gildrey and
you. And you wonder, though, at that
point with Menace strain Bull Shine as the producer of those
early shows, they needed producers who were a bit
different as well. I mean, the road not taken for
the Goon Show is so many roads were there.
Thank the Lord they took them. And my goodness, didn't they
turn them into boulevards of fabulousness?
And of course, yeah. And you think about Stanley
Black was the conductor in the early days as well, yeah.
I mean, I I I think Angela Morley, Wally Stott and I've
I've heard her talking about about how she got the gag and of
course with they were all musical.
Yeah. Spike and the.
Trumpet, The ABC doco, which is on YouTube, which is called Otis
Special Spy. Milligan takes a young look at
Australia. You see Spike playing the piano
in that particular cue. Kind of style.
Seek him, obviously. But also, you know, Sellers, the
great drummer and ukulele. Yeah, yeah.
Music. Played a very important part.
And it wasn't just the musical interludes.
It without that knowledge of music and and tempo and pitch
and all the rest of it, it would not have been the same it and
the the free form. Nature of jazz and that sort of
thing. Got it.
Bang on? Absolutely, yeah.
Yes. OK, well listen, the next time
you and I meet we'll we'll be rehearsing for Greenslade with
the Exclamation Mark the Musical and have you got any anything to
to plug or any anything. No, I don't have I I.
I am on Twitter at O. It's a It's a Welsh pun.
I am on Twitter at Orbech Oz. Orbech means from afar.
My name is BE Double L You see where I'm going there?
Orbech, Oz and I try and be nice as you do, as much positive
stuff and clips and weirdness as well.
So if you're a fan of Icelandic situation comedy, or who isn't,
who isn't, that's the place for you.
But I've got nothing to plug. Brilliant.
Good to. Hear with that Andy, I just want
to thank you very much for your time and we will speak again.
Thank. You so much and keep doing the
great work and it's been a blast.
Tell me, Dad.