Tell me what you think being there is about Peter.
Oh, God, no. I know.
I've been asked that question. You know you have.
Yes, I have. You know, I haven't heard a guy.
I think it's all about. I have to get serious here.
Yes, please. Yeah, very serious.
I think it's about the. I think it's Jezzy Kaczynski's
comment on power and corruption and the triumph of the innocent
man. As Jesus Christ said, you know,
the, the, the, the, the, the triumph of the, the simple man
over over power, over wealth, over corruption.
And it's probably a comment on that because you can't get any
more a person more simple than chance.
You consider it a comedy in a way.
I never sort of. It's not one of those Goffle
comedies. No.
Is it the most satisfying job of acting you've done on on the
screen? The most difficult.
The most difficult, Yes. Except for working with that
incredible actor Melvin Douglas, and who I've admired for years,
absolute years. So you're both Academy Award
nominees? Yes.
Have you your speech prepared? And the winner is Peter Sellers.
What are you going to say? Yeah.
I'm not going there.
Oh, you're not. No, no, no.
The. Hello and welcome to Goon Pod.
So with 2025 being the centenary of Peter Sellers, he was born
100 years ago this year. We will be obviously marking the
occasion with a a bunch of special shows.
And this week we're going to be talking about a film which which
many consider to be his best. Although Doctor Strangelove may
well be entitled to say hold my beer, it is being there from
1979. And joining me this week to talk
about it is podcaster Anthony Rotunno.
Hello. Hello.
Very good pronunciation. Excellent.
Rotunno. Rotunno.
If you really want to get Italian with it.
Absolutely. It's nice to be here.
Thank you. Thank you.
I said podcaster. So I I'm aware of you primarily
from Glass Onion, which is a, a John Lennon dedicated podcaster
and film Gold, which is just your films that you like
essentially, yeah. Yeah, sort of veering towards
classics. I like the 70s period of
Hollywood and Hitchcock in the 50s so.
But I do do newer stuff as well. I absolutely love 70s films.
That's probably my favorite decade for films.
And I love Hitchcock as well. So if you combine them both, I
mean frenzy, what a film and. I remember the seam of the
potatoes. Do you remember that?
The potatoes, yes. And the leg is a leg hanging
out. Yeah, yeah.
And you got, you got, you got Bernard Cribbins with a potty
mouth as well. Yeah, absolutely.
Seem to remember OK, but we're not talking about frenzy, we're
talking about being there. And I'd like to to set us off
with just a sort of a summary. A short pithy was not that pithy
actually, but I'll make it as quick as I can, Anthony, sort of
a summary of the film and then you and I can dive in and start
just talking about it. OK, OK, so Chance is a
middle-aged man with the mental age of a child.
He was a foundling taken in by a wealthy man, presumably some 50
plus years ago, and has never ventured outside of Mr. Jennings
Washington DC townhouse. He's content to spend his days
gardening and watching television indiscriminately.
He's pale as a mushroom as well as being emotionally colourless,
and he looks like he just stepped out of a trunk wearing a
beautifully cut 1928 suit. When his benefactor dies and
Louise, the maid who effectively bought Chance up, leaves the
house for good, it's not long before Chance is forced to do
the same. And this new Adam, soon to meet
his Eve, steps out into the unforgiving and totally alien
landscape of the Washington DC projects.
Had fate not intervened, Chance's life would barely have
been worth an hour's purchase as he encounters a violent St. gang
and has no means to buy food or find shelter.
But just by Chance, he happens to be mildly injured by a
limousine containing the wife of Ben Rand, the richest man in
America. So that was handy and and she
insists that Chance accompany her back to her home, which is a
mansion roughly the size of Cuba.
Her elderly husband is dying from a rare form of anemia, but
he meets Chance, who's now designated Chauncey Gardener
after a misunderstanding at the first of dozens, and takes to
him immediately. Rand, his wife and seemingly
everyone else in the house believe Chance to be some sort
of Oracle, interpreting his every banal utterance as
something deep and profound. But we the audience know that
Chance, far from being gifted with intellectual and
philosophical heft, doesn't really have a clue what anyone
is talking about most of the time, and when pressed to
comment on something, reaches for the comforting certainty of
amateur horticulture. Despite all this, by the end of
the film he's being talked up as a possible presidential
candidate. Being there is a satire on a
society in which mindlessness can be an asset as long as the
possessor of this virtue appears to be honest and sincere, which
is quite a quaint concept now, coupled coupled with an American
hunger for a symbol of innocence in the wake of Watergate and
Vietnam. So there we go.
So thank you for listening and I'll be back in next week We've.
Got nothing else to say? Now that's.
Fine, No, thank you. Thank you for for your patience
there, Anthony. But yeah, that that that sort of
sets sets us up if you like. So.
So what's your history with this film?
Why? Why did you want to talk about
this film? I saw this probably about 2000
and eight, 2009. And at that time I was quite
involved in activist circles in London, a sort of activist slash
conspiracy crowd, I suppose you'd call it.
And the I was told you got to watch this film, especially the
end. We won't go straight to the end
now, but the not, not actually the incident with the water.
There's something else at the end that the conspiracy crowd
really like. Oh.
I know what you're talking about.
Yeah, we'll come to that. So I've probably seen it maybe
four times I think. And I think the last couple of
times I've seen it, I I just kind of thought that the concept
was more enjoyable than the film.
But funnily enough, you know, when you sit down and you're
preparing for a podcast, you prepare and you watch it in a
slightly different way. And I thought, is this going to
be better or worse than normal if I watch it relax with a real
analytical eye? And I actually found it was
better. And then I'll be honest, I've
watched a couple of analysis videos because this is so right
for analysis that it's interesting to see what other
people say. So probably seen it four times I
think now. OK, I probably, I'm probably
more or less the same. I think probably seen it four
times. I saw it first.
So when I got into the games, I was devouring and buying up
everything I could that had a game connection in the late 80s,
early 90s and I got avhs of being there.
And I was whatever age it would have been 15 or whatever, 16 and
it and and it was it just it left me flat when I first
watched it because I'm thinking, come on, where's where's the
buffer laughs? This is Peter Sellers.
Come on, you know, come on, come on.
You know, it's not that sort of film.
I don't. I wouldn't really say it was a
comedy. It's a it's a satirical drama.
There you go. It's a new genre.
But but no. So I saw, I saw it when I was
teenager kid and then I probably didn't see it again till maybe
10 years ago. And then it came out on Blu-ray
about five years ago. I bought that, watched it again
and then obviously watched it for this.
And you're right though, watching it with a more
analytical eye as I, as I did this time around it actually, I
actually got more out of it, I think.
Do you know do you know much about how this came to be made?
I just know that it was a pet project of his for years.
Was it up to even 10 years or is that too long?
I think I think I'm right in saying now I should have checked
this. Double check this it's either 71
or 73 that the The novel was published by Josie Kaczynski.
Yeah, somewhere in my vast notes, but I can't find it.
It's 1970, maybe 71, something like that.
Something like that. Salas reads it and it's not
really a novel, it's more of a novella.
It's like 80 pages, something like that.
And Salas was always banging on about about himself being a bit
of a cipher, being a bit of an not that he described himself as
this, but kind of being an empty vessel, having having having no
real self. OK means he famously said on the
Muppet Show to Kermit the Frog, what was it?
He said? There is no real me.
I had it surgically removed. And he was always going on about
that. And, and I think he identified
immediately with the character in, in, in being there.
He contacts Kaczynski and basically says I am chance.
I think he writes, I think he writes some letters signing
himself as Chauncey Gardner and stuff like that.
But but, but by the in the in the early 70s, he can't get
arrested really. So as he makes a string of of of
commercially disastrous films, some of some of which don't even
get released officially, you know, so he can't get the he
can't get it this bankrolled. He contacts Hal Ashby, but but
even at that point, Ashby himself wasn't that bankable
yet. OK.
But by by 78, Sellers had become a big mega star again because of
the the Pink Panther films, OK. And Ashby had made Coming Home
that that's a Vietnam film, wasn't it?
It's about yeah, post Vietnam. Jane Fonda and Jon Voight.
Yeah, it's not bad. That's right.
It's not one of my favorite Vietnam War films, but it's
good. Yeah, so so he was, you know, he
was hot property. So they both were able to come
together and get the financing to make this film.
And it began filming on the 15th of January 1979 and wrapped on
the 18th of April. And so and so there we go.
So they said so the film was made, it comes out and it is a a
commercial and a critical success.
It's it's Oscar nominated Melvin Douglas who plays Rand, wins
best supporting actor. Sellers is up for best actor,
but he loses to Dustin Hoffman for Kramer versus Kramer.
And it is that that's a great performance actually in, I don't
know if you've seen Kramer versus Kramer.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's one I saw actually when I
was quite young, so probably, I'd probably appreciate it more
if I watched it again. Too many films, you know.
I refuse to believe that I beat Jack Lemmon, that I beat Al
Pacino, that I beat Peter Sellers.
I refuse to believe that Robert Duvall lost.
We are a part of an artistic family.
There are 60,000 actors in this Academy, pardon me, in the
Screen Actors Guild, and probably 100,000 in Equity.
And most actors don't work, and a few of us are so lucky to have
a chance. Talking of Hoffman, I might want
to talk about Rain Man in passing later on because there's
definitely a few similarities. I thought you when you said
Hoffman, I thought, you know, Sellers made a film called
Hoffman. Oh, does he?
Oh yeah. Yeah, haven't seen him. 19701970
in which he plays a a sociopath. It's an interesting film with an
interesting ending that they wouldn't make today, Let's put
it that way. OK, so, so I I have issues with
it and I know. And my problem is that I
overthink things and I just seemed and I know it's a satire
and it's not real life, but the the credulity of everybody who
meets chance. Nobody says nobody.
Nobody says hang on. Yeah, I I can see why you would
be put off by it. I can see why someone would be
put off by it because it's ridiculous.
But I think that's where the comedy comes in.
But it's not gag. There's not really gags in this
film except all for all his unintentional comedy about the
elevator being a small room and stuff.
Yeah. But yeah, there's a there's a
satirical aspect. It's it's a heightened truth, if
you like, I would say. Do you?
Do you get any hints of Forrest Gump about the character?
Yeah, I've written down Rain Man and Forrest Gump because I
thought, yeah, I was thinking, yeah, I don't really like
Forrest. I've only seen it once.
I was so gutted that year that Pulp Fiction, I'm sure
Redemption didn't get all the main awards.
Yeah, yeah, No, definitely. There's a little bit.
Yeah, Yeah. I think the voice is really
interesting because he he based the voice on Stan Laurel, didn't
he? Yes.
And it's that kind of quite monotone.
Yeah, the the bit of the film where I found it dragged a bit
was around the middle where they're just gardening.
Stuff just kept going on and on. I think later on when he starts
to be to rise to prominence. But I think it's funny, like
when someone says there's a rumour, that rumour that he
speaks 8 languages. And I mean, that's just come out
of nothing, but it's just sort of showing you what people are
like. If loads of people get
interested in someone, everyone else kind of feels like they
want to go along with it and they go, oh, I've heard he's got
2° or I've heard he speaks 8 languages.
It's it's interesting. Yeah.
It's not, no, it's not realistic.
But maybe that's part of kind of part of the joke, almost part
of. The yeah, that's nobody.
Nobody asks the question. Everyone's too invested to ask
the question. I I wrote in my notes here is
everyone in this film as dumb as rocks?
Why do they not realize? Why do they put up with him that
they misinterpret his his every, every word, every platitude, and
they think everything he says. They think everything he says is
a is a deep and meaningful metaphor.
And Eve, who's Shirley MacLaine, describes him at various times
as intense, cool and detached, which is far more than he
deserves. And it's that it's kind of like
I, I ascribe to this, it's kind of like I, me and friends have
this phrase for, for situations like in this film, the, the
Fawlty Towers problem, specifically the, the wedding
party episode of Fawlty Towers where if Basil had just
explained calmly to his wedding guests what had happened, then
none of that the subsequent disasters would occur.
You know, OK, we wouldn't have 1/2 hour sitcom, but still, you
know, and if it, all it took in this film was for one person,
the chauffeur who backed into him to have a quiet word with
Shirley MacLaine and say, listen, this man's a simpleton.
This man's got the mental age of a 5 year old.
Did you, did you, did you know that that's all, that's all it
would take. We wouldn't have a film.
It just annoyed me the way that nobody questioned him at all.
There's no real villain. The the only kind of villain in
the film, I suppose, is that Thomas, whatever his name is the
the the attorney who turfs him out of the house in the 1st
place. But even he doesn't really do
anything, does he? No, I think Doctor Allenby is
set up as a kind of antagonist, but in the end he just realises
that the number one thing is that Ben is cheered up by being
around this guy as he, as even is the president.
I don't know why the president was impotent.
I just, I don't know what that had to do with anything.
I thought Chance was going to give him some advice that would
be interpreted as sexual advice, and then the president would
suddenly be really Randy and like.
Satisfying. Something to do with?
Something to the. Yeah, some advice, like planting
a sapling. Yeah, because everything is to
do with gardening. That's all he knows other than
what he sees on TV. And it's interesting.
He. I said he watches TV
indiscriminately. He'll just watch, you know, 5
minutes of this and then turn it over on to the next channel
along. He's got no, he'll just watch
whatever is on just channel surfing.
And he and he mimics what he sees on TV as well.
There's a there's a, an old black and white film with that
that he watches a little bit of with a really terrible racial
stereotype raising his hat. And Chance is pretending to
raise a hat, copying what he sees on TV.
And obviously Sellers as a younger man, you know, he, he,
he was known as a voices man when he when he started out on
the radio and and you know, he was mimicking the sounds of
people, whereas Chance here is, is mimicking the way that people
shake hands and people, as I say, people raise their hat the
way people walk. But he doesn't seem to be taking
in taking in anything other than that from the television.
Yeah. Well, can I ask you that because
I'm wondering, has he accumulated any wisdom from the
TV? Cos I I.
Don't think so I. Suspect like you, he hasn't,
he's not taking anything in. He's just, he's, it's just this
kind of, and that's the thing. He's a comment on society
because when I was growing up, we just had the TV on all the
time. And in a way, we're kind of
doing what Charles is doing in some ways, in that when I used
to come home from, I had two sisters.
And when we were all living at home, the TV is just on.
Whoever gets home first puts the TV on.
Yeah. And we're not even necessarily
watching it, but we are. It's, it's just that thing in
the corner of the room. So I suppose it's like a friend
to some people. But.
But I don't think, no, I don't think he's, I don't think he's
picking up anything intellectual from the TV at all.
No. Well, when he right at the
beginning of the film, he's told by Louise, the housekeeper or
the maid, yeah, who's who's who's brought him up?
We don't really, we don't really we don't know anything about him
prior to what we see in the film.
We don't we don't know anything if we don't know his back story
in the in the novel, there's a little bit of back story.
So he's, and I mentioned I alluded to it before, he's a
foundling. So he must have been he must
have been in this. He's about if I mean Sellers was
what, 535253 when he was making this chance looks older, but
let's say he's a man in his 50s. So he's he's all he's known for
50 plus years is what's in that house and and he's never
ventured outside. He's never been in a car.
But when he's told by Louise that Old Man Jennings has passed
through this veil of tears, he doesn't.
He reacts as if he's been told that there's cats fighting
outside. Mild interest.
Mild interest, but that's about it.
Well, yeah, funnily enough that you don't think of the
characters having character development.
And I'm sorry to keep going about Rainman, but I just
watched it recently and I listened to an audio commentary
and there were so many interesting things in that.
That's why I keep mentioning it. But in Rainman there's a tiny
bit of progression. There's a scene where him and
his brother, played by Tom Cruise, he puts they put their
heads together and like he wouldn't be able to hug but he
can put their heads together. And funnily enough, Chance does
actually look sad. I mean when I was reading the
synopsis, it says Chance looks genuinely sad at the funeral at
the end and he does kind of look sad.
So I don't know whether that would count as character
development. The reaction to his second death
is different to the first, I think.
Absolutely. Yeah, He's when?
When Rand Ben Rand dies, Chance is is kind of tearing up his his
eyes are red rimmed. You've become quite a close
friend of Eves, haven't you? Chance?
Yes. Yes, I I love Eve very much,
Robin. And you really are a gardener,
aren't you? I am God.
Well, I'll go and tell Eve about Ben.
I understand. But when he's told at the
beginning of the film that the man who he's known all his life,
he's the probably the only man he's ever known all his life,
has died, he doesn't say he's there's just kind of mild
indifference, I suppose. And he goes back to watching
Sesame Street. Yeah.
Perhaps it? Seems a bit unrealistic to think
that he would have that and now I'm overthinking it.
But do you think it's a bit unrealistic that he would?
Why would he feel sad? I guess because he because he
hasn't spent half as much time with Ben Rand as with the old
man. I don't know.
Now Speaking of Ben Rand, so it's it's Melvin Douglas.
Sellers met Melvin Douglas in 1945 during the war because
Sellers was was part of the gang show forces entertainment shows
in Burma and he was in Calcutta at one point and met Melvin
Douglas and he would Douglas was a major in the Special services
entertainment production unit, which was I guess is kind of
like a almost like an American equivalent to the gang shows
perhaps. Anyway, he met Sellers met.
He was a young man, obviously met Melvin Douglas, they had a
meal together, got them very well apparently and then
obviously well, some 30 plus years later they meet again.
With regards to Douglas, I don't know, did he deserve the best
sporting actor Oscar? I don't know who he's up
against, but it wasn't to me. It wasn't a stand out
performance. No, I think, I think if I hadn't
found out that he, well, I think I found out after I watched the
film, I wouldn't have said, oh, wow, I bet that was a bet.
That was a, you know, an Oscar worthy performance because
didn't really have too much to do.
I mean, he he's fairly, I mean, obviously he's he's he's playing
somebody who's terminally ill, but his whole thing towards
chance is pretty much the same all the time.
You know, he just likes him. He says, oh, I really admire
you, Chauncey. You know, it's that kind of
thing. It's not a great deal to do, I
think. Well, I wonder if if it was one
of those where, I don't know, maybe he'd never been honoured
by the Academy previously and he's obviously an old man.
They're thinking, come on, let's, let's give him a give him
a nod now before it's too late. So do they.
Yeah. Are you generally a Sellers fan
or is it just this film? I mean, I know you said Doctor
Strangelove, but when it comes to Peter Sellers, when it comes,
I mean, have you listened to the Goon Show ever?
Have you? Are you interested in Spike
Milligan? Do you have?
Is it? Is it does?
Does you know any of that chime with you?
I mean, I, I would have started with the Pink Panther films for
sure as a kid, but I remember the party doctor Strangelove.
I just think he's, I mean, 'cause he's giving 33 brilliant
performances. You get 3 in one.
So that counts as three films in my book.
Now the the goons, I, I, I became aware of the goons
because every Beatles documentary you ever watch or
listen to, they always say, oh, John Lennon say, oh, we love the
goons and every Monty Python. I love Monty Python as well.
I'm doing doing a review of Life of Brian next week and there is
a strange little connection in that Brian and Chauncey Gardner
both get credited for things that they haven't done.
That's true. It's weird, isn't it?
I'll be preparing those two films at the same time.
That's very true. Yeah, yeah.
And yeah. So the goons, yeah.
I'm not sure I need to listen to more.
The only reason I ask is because there's the, there's the bit
where Louise is leaving the house and it's a bit off.
I think she because she, she knows what he what chance is
like. She knows his condition.
If you want to call it a condition, she just, she just
upped and leaves. Do you not think that's rather
callous? It is a bit weird, isn't?
It so she did she. Live in the house as well or she
she would just come in as a maid I suppose didn't.
She actually, I don't know, I assumed she was living, but
maybe she wasn't. I don't know.
But as as she's leaving, she
tells him, well, she basically says he hasn't got the equipment
to satisfy a woman kind of well, not words to that effect.
And then she says he'll always be a little boy.
And and it made me think, actually, this film would have
been better for me if Sellers had done chance as Blue Bottle,
the character from the Goon Show.
Yeah, it would take you out of the film, I'm sure.
But it would it would make me happy.
What happened in the autumn when deadly back and I fall?
Let's say that the old man Jennings bought this house back
in the 10s or the 20s. Where in it?
I'm assuming the neighborhood that it's situated and must have
been more at market than it became because it's basically
it's gone to hell, this neighborhood.
In fact, I didn't realise at first that it was Washington.
DCI thought it was some New York borough or something.
Well, that's the thing. Washington DC is rather
ironically, has got lots of deprived areas, has got a lot of
that fairly near the White House.
I've never been there but just what I heard.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's weird, isn't it?
He just goes out into, I don't know, it's almost like a slum
really. Yeah, and there's that scene
where he gets he's not mugged, but he's confronted by that
street gang. Yeah, and he gets the TV remote
out and tries to turn the channel over.
Erase this guy you know, from his life by turning the channel
over. Yeah, it's pretty weird.
That's the only that's the only I was thinking that's the only
scene you see where Chance looks stern or annoyed or irritated
does. He look scared though, do you
think? Well, he's he's kind of isn't,
isn't he? Frowning and trying to turn the
guy over with remote control. Well, first he says, do you know
where I can find a garden? Doesn't he?
Well, first he just stops a woman in the street and asks if
she can make him some lunch. And yeah, then he asks if
there's a garden somewhere. He asks the street gang.
Well, yeah, and you know why he asked the woman in the street?
It's because she's black and. And Louise was black.
So he associates black women with someone that's going to
make them their lunch. I guess.
I wanted to talk about the TV that he watches as well.
From what I understand, they, they had they, there was
somebody credited who, whose job specifically was to select the
television that he would be watching.
So it wasn't just random stuff. It was all carefully selected.
Did you, did you ascribe any importance to the clips that we
see, the television clips or did you just say to just think it
was just whatever happened to be on when the camera was rolling?
I don't think it really made much difference to the plot.
Oh, actually, there's just just that one bit because he he
imitates the kissing scene from Thomas Crown affair and and it's
actually quite significant because just that he obviously
he he grabs Eve in a kind of dramatic way like they are in
the film, gives her a kiss. And from that alone, I mean,
she's going to interpret all kinds of things, you know, just
from that one act. So significant then but I can't
remember what was on. Wasn't there dancing and there
was yoga at some? Point Yoga.
I think it's kind of reflecting because I think the 70s in
America was a big kind of self helpy time.
So I can't remember what else was on though.
To be on talk shows I guess as well.
Sellers. Sellers was deeply into
spiritualism and clairvoyancy and all that sort of thing, as
was, I believe, Shirley MacLaine.
I suppose that's why he likes Chance, isn't it, Because he he
is a bit positive. You can imagine him being quite
peaceful company. I think that's what a lot of
people like about him in the film.
You know, he doesn't talk too much.
Yeah. Yeah.
He could be capable of being quite quiet, I think.
Well, yeah, that that that scene where you say where he embraces
Eve and then completely loses interest because something else
has come on the television. I think it is yoga on that
occasion, I can't remember. Yeah, well, he's, how do we put
this delicately. You know, I've got some older
listeners, Anthony. I don't, I don't want to be too
crude, but let's let's say that Eve, there's a there's a pivotal
scene where Eve is pleasuring herself and kind of getting a
lot out of it. And, and and Chance is
completely switched off from this.
He's standing on his head on the bed doing yoga.
But, but, but she's happy, isn't she?
Yeah, Yeah, she's happy. And he's that's the thing.
He is genuinely making her happy just by being there.
Oh being there. Sorry, I didn't mean that.
Sorry for the part I've just discovered by accident.
The why the why it's called that.
I've been trying to work out why is it called being there that
you've answered it. Yeah, sorry, that was completely
by accident. I didn't mean to say it,
obviously. But yeah, I suppose the
spiritual thing is it's all the Eckhart Tolle stuff being in the
moment, and he is quite. I did write down Zen not not
meaning like a Zen Buddhist, but in the way we use the adjective
Zen you. He's very Zen, meaning he's
quite still, and he seems at peace because presumably he
doesn't really have hang ups. No, it's also it's such a
contrast for for Sellers from Cluso.
So the films, I mean, he made a few other films around this
time, but but you had returned the Pink Panther and then
subsequent sequels to that which we're getting more increasingly
cartoonish and absurd. OK, where by the end it was just
silly voices and pratfalls and slapstick and over the top
performances and things like that.
Whereas this is the this is the antithesis of this is the
complete opposite in terms of seller's performance.
It's right so rained in and and he's so like you say Zen do.
You think the appeal as well was just that he wanted to play
somebody quiet himself. You know, it must have been
quite hard to get in the character in one sense.
But like physic, there's not a lot of exertion, let's say, you
know, everything's delivered straight.
There's not. He doesn't.
There's no call for emotion so. No.
Well, Sellas, I don't know. Sellas famously would take his
characters home with him at the end of the days filming, so I
imagine because he was with Lynn Frederick at this time.
So I imagine it was quite nice having Peter Chauncey Gardner
Sellers coming home after filming and I'm I'm sure it was
quite peaceful and watching TV kept switching over while
they're trying to watch a film. There were other characters he
played earlier in his career, one in particular where he was a
real bastard and that was not nice to be, he was not nice to
be around when he when he took those characters home.
Laurence Olivier just getting back to that scene, that scene
with the, with the yoga and the, the, the carry on with them.
Shirley MacLaine. Laurence Olivier had been asked
to play Ben Rand, I believe, and turned it down because he didn't
want to be in a film where Shirley MacLaine masturbates.
No, I'm laughing because I was. I was about to say Shirley
Bassey masturbates, which would be.
It's a whole other image. Yeah.
I think he would have been. I can imagine him delivering an
Oscar winning performance somehow.
Oh, yes, I think, well, he was he he was ill.
He was ill around this time. Yeah.
For real. So was Sellers, though Sellers
was slowly dying. It's maybe a little bit dramatic
to say slowly dying, but he knew he only had what, two years left
really. And he was always, I think he'd
been living on borrowed time since it had the series of heart
attacks in the 60s. So it's quite interesting seeing
him looking very old or looking a lot older than we've seen him
prior to this. It's quite interesting, quite
odd to see him in scenes where you have another character who's
very ill and dying. You know, Sellers was, too.
And I'm sure Sellers. I'm sure that point wasn't lost
on Sellers because he, because he was really aware of his own
mortality at this time. I think he was just counting,
counting down the days. Yeah.
He hadn't been diagnosed as having like six months left to
liver or anything like that. It was more he knew that he
would not make old bones, as they say, you know?
Yeah, just with regards to that, that scene with Chilly, Chilly
MacLean, You, you touched on the fact that the prime, the Prime
Minister, the Prime Minister is impotent.
The president is impotent. And.
And we don't really know why. Yeah.
Or whether it was fixed. Otherwise, why have why have it
there? It just would have been perfect.
If Chance had cured him inadvertently, that would have
been. Well, there's there is this
underlying current of sexual frustration in the film.
So you've got Eve Rand and you've got President, President
Bobby. That's all we know as I think.
Jack Ward and I love Jack Ward and I've seen a few of his
films. Well I was watching so I watched
this on last Friday again for this and happy to be my
birthday. So I had a few birthday drinks
and I thought, wow, I thought, I love Jack Warden.
I'm going to watch my second favorite film of all time, even
though I've seen it trillions of times.
And so I watched 12 Angry Men. Oh yeah, yeah.
And loved every minute of it, as always.
Yeah, he's the one who had tickets for the ball game,
wasn't he? Tickets for the ball game and he
just wants to, he wants the kid to fry in the chair because he
wants to get to the ball game basically.
And then he changes his mind because he thinks I, I, that's
the best way to get a get out of there, basically.
Yeah, he just. Was winning everyone over, so
I'll go along with it. Absolutely.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think the last scene. I don't know if you ought to
talk about it now or later. On we'll talk about it now
because you know people, it's a, it's a 45 year old film.
People should have seen it by now.
But listen to this. Yes, yes, well, obviously
there's a walking on water and there's various, there are
obviously biblical things like Eve and the garden and the film
takes place over 7 days, apparently.
But I was quite blown away when I watched this.
And like I say, if you remember when Obama first got in and
there was all that birth certificate stuff, Yeah, yeah.
Now, I'm not saying there was anything to that, but that I
just remember seeing interviews with people who said, Oh yeah,
he's supposed to be at so and so school and nobody remembers him
being there, but being there. Keep doing that.
But anyway, it just seemed weird that I, I happened to see this
film at that exact time where you had a guy that no one quite
knows his background possibly anyway.
But I think the more pertinent 1 was George W Bush because it it.
I think I'd be on safe ground and say George, but W Bush was a
bit of an idiot. Whatever that word means.
You know, however you take. That just a bit.
Just a bit. Yeah, but I was just blown away
to see the end of this film where they said, you know, they
got these, the pallbearers saying, oh, you know, we need to
pick somebody. And of course that doesn't mean
that that happens that blatantly in real life.
But it was interesting because it was around the time when I
was more politically active was sort of the end of Bush and the
beginning of Obama, that period. Yeah.
Just having that, just thinking, well, maybe they kind of do
select people because I love Yes Minister as well.
Absolutely obsessed with Yes Minister and I probably know all
the most of the words of all of those.
And yes, Prime Minister. And Jim Hacker of course becomes
Prime Minister because he's a safe pair of hands, because the
other two have got dodgy MI 5 files.
Yeah. The other thing about Chauncey,
of course he's got the power in a way of having no pass because
there's nothing they can get him on.
He doesn't seem to have a sexual appetite, so they can't get him
on that. So yes, in the yes Minister, the
comedy is of is they suddenly realise, oh, it's going to be
Jim Hacker, who's the Paul Addington.
And they both start laughing and they're going really, could we
do this? Really.
They go, yeah, we can just get him a victory.
You know, sometimes when they're trying to get the candidate out,
they'll they'll organise a victory.
You know something they do well and they get to make a speech
and everything. I have no use for those on
welfare, no patience whatsoever. But if I had to be honest with
myself, I must admit that they have no use for me either.
I do not regret having political differences with men that I
respect. I do regret, however, that our
philosophies kept us apart. Yes, I agree, except he's so
boring. What about Max where he could
never take an election? Correct.
People of this country need to be awakened.
What about Lawson? He's charismatic, exciting.
He's a bit too exciting, I'm afraid.
If they start bringing up things about.
Time is running out. We must come to a decision.
I don't think there's really any other classic scenes.
I just think it's very. Well, that The thing is, though,
this film, just when it was being made, it just predated
Reagan throwing his hat in the ring.
That's right. Yeah.
For the presidency. But I remember, I think I'm
roughly. What age are you?
I'm. 49 So I was born in 75. OK, we're virtually, we're
virtually the same age then. OK, I was going to say you'll
remember the jokes about Reagan being dumb as a mule and, you
know, just this washed up old Hollywood B movie actor and all
the rest of it. And it was countless, You know,
he's always being pissed, was always being taken out of him
on, you know, British comedies. I can think of that.
Not 9:00 news sketch. In fact, what was it in Spitting
Image? There was a running.
There was a running gag about the president's brain is
missing. I think something like that.
Yeah, but you look back now Reagan, OK, yes, I know he was
suffering from early onset Alzheimer's, I think by the mid
80s or something. But and he did many bad things
and he was not a great president.
But you look back now and you think, jeez, you had to have him
back in a heartbeat if it was. But what?
I guess, yeah. But I mean, I suppose then the
the president at the time this was being filmed was Jimmy
Carter, who was probably not very well.
He was not very popular, regarded as a bit of a joke I
think. Yeah, I don't remember that
time, but I I think he he was much loved after him.
And of course, he just died, didn't he?
Fairly. Recently he did.
He did, yeah. I think he's the poster boy for
the American dream because he was a peanut farmer, wasn't he?
He's one of the few you can point to and say, well, that
guy's come from being a peanut farmer.
Might find out he's got rich friends.
I don't know, honestly don't know much of his story, but
yeah, yeah, yeah. He was there, Yeah.
What did you think of the and I, I don't know the significance,
I'm sure you do, but the family vault, the Rand family vault
where they were going to enter the casket had that.
It was like a pyramid with an all the all seeing eye going.
On Oh yeah, I even forgot to mention that.
Yeah, I'm saying that that really appeals to the sort of
truth slash conspiracy community.
They love it. And notice as well that there it
looks like there's a tear coming down from the eye as well.
So that's more possible symbolism.
Yeah, Yeah, that's the thing. It's a bit of a sort of triple
whammy. You've got these guys talking
about choosing the president, then you get the pyramid and the
all seeing eye. It's like a three in one.
You think, is that how it works? Maybe, maybe not, I don't know.
The film obviously ends with the scene the famous scene of
Chauncey Chance walking on water.
What did we meant to take away from that that that?
You. Know, I don't know if that he's
secretly Jesus or something, I don't know.
Yeah, we'll say that quietly. Yeah.
Well, struck down my my slight
problem with that scene is that because it's so obvious that
Peter Sellers, they've done some trick where Peter Sellers
obviously isn't walking a water. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it just.
Looks too obvious that he's. I was in a funny way.
I was too focused on the fact that sellers didn't look like he
was walking a water. And that's silly.
But in terms of the actual idea of it, yeah, there's obviously
the Jesus thing. I I can't take credit for this.
I was watching a video they kept.
I didn't. Maybe it was a Roger Ebert
review or something else. You know, in cartoons when
someone falls off a mountain or something or off a Cliff, but
they don't fall until they can see that they're yes, not on.
To me, somebody said I can't remember if it was ebook or
somebody else. They said chance is a bit like
that. He doesn't know any.
His power comes to the fact he doesn't really know any
limitations. Yeah.
He doesn't seem to have an ego so.
He doesn't know it can't be done.
Yeah, exactly. He doesn't know it can't be
done. And funnily enough, I've just, I
just did a special on Orson Welles for Film Gold and I'm
currently in the middle of A5 part of a Citizen Kane.
And Orson Welles said when he made Citizen Kane, his power was
he didn't know what can be done. So the limitation, obviously
it's not supposed to be realistic, but the limitation of
gravity, let's say, doesn't apply to him just because he
doesn't know certain limitations, because he does
have a kind of power over people, doesn't he?
He doesn't. He doesn't recognize the law of
physics. Exactly.
He does have a sort of this passive power because the, the,
the clip they always play when they talk about this film tends
to be the one where he's sat talking to the president and,
and gives that speech about as long as the roots are not
severed, there will be, you know, all will be well,
etcetera. As long as the roots are not
severed, all is well and all will be well in the garden.
In the garden, yes, in a garden, growth has its season.
First comes spring and summer, but then we have fall and
winter, and then we get spring and summer again.
Spring and summer, yes. Then fall and winter, yes.
I think what our insightful young friend is saying is that
we welcome the inevitable seasons of nature, but we're
upset by the seasons of our economy.
Yes, there will be growth in the spring.
Well, Mr. Garner, I must admit that is one of the most
refreshing and optimistic statements I've heard in a very,
very long time. He then gets invited on to chat
shows, things like that, off the back of being mentioned in the
presidential press conference. Everyone wants to find out who
he is, what his back story is, what his background is, who his
parents were, much to the chagrin of Louise, who's who's
watching him being interviewed on television.
She says something like that boys got rice pudding in between
his ears. All you got to be is white in
America. That was a that was a bit of
good. That was a comedic scene that
really worked. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, she was great. I wonder if also, I don't know
how to say this, but there's something in films where they
try and imply that lower state, I don't want to say lower class,
but lower status people have more wisdom than kind of rich
out of touch people. I think there's a bit of that as
well. I think maybe the the rich
people, they're just how do I say this?
They're almost like so confident that they know what's what that
they almost let their guard down.
I don't know, you know, And she, she can just see the bigger
picture and say what's going on here, you know, and obviously
the doctor twigs it as well, but like we said, just decides not
to say anything because you can see that Ben's happier because
Chance and Eve's happier because chance is around.
Yeah, yeah. But I think.
Louise is is the the voice of reason, basically.
I want to talk about this is this is where I tend, I tend to
go off topic often on this podcast sentencing.
Oh, no problem. I'm with and and I had AI
watched this film again and I got an earworm from it.
I'm sure you know what an earworm is.
Case listeners don't. It's when you hear a song that
sticks in your head for the rest of the day pretty much.
And I mentioned earlier on the film chances watching Sesame
Street and it's a scene with Big Bird and a human.
It's actually, it's actually the the actress and singer Buffy St.
Marie. Have you heard of her at all?
I've heard the name but I wouldn't know anything.
About her she's well, she was a she was a regular on on gonna
say Coronation Street on Sesame Street around this time and
she's singing a song to cheer up big Bird because big bird.
I looked into this big bird was jealous because she'd just had a
new baby, right. And he was he was getting
jealous because of that, even though he clearly wasn't her
child anyway, you know, and she sings the song called different
people different ways. And I'll tell you what, I, I
watched the clip of it, you know, on YouTube and it just, I
think it's delightful stuck, stuck in my head.
But it caused me to go off on a done a bloody rabbit hole.
Now she Buffy Sant Marie, she was a big advocate for Native
American rights and for the longest time, for years and
years and years, I think, I think I've got this right.
I asked my friend Andrew about this.
She was, she claimed to, to, to be, I think she was Canadian.
Well, she was American and she, she gained Canadian citizenship,
but she, she claimed to be from a, a Native American tribe, or
at least you know, her, her ancestry was OK.
Turned out she was Italian, funny enough.
And it was, it was and it was, it was Hokin.
It was all a it was all a story about she'd, she'd coasted on
that, on that for years and years and years.
So she kind of got exposed, but she caused the stir on US
television because she was the first person to breastfeed a
baby on US television, OK, on Sesame Street during this, you
know, this storyline about her having a new baby.
And she she'd probably be best known now in terms of a song
that she Co wrote, which was up where we belong from an officer
and a gentleman. Yeah, of course.
Yeah, yeah. And yeah.
So I just spent, I honest to God, I spent about an hour on
Saturday morning just reading up about her and listening to that
song. And also Fran Brill, who's the
lady who plays the, you know, when Thomas, the attorney and
that woman who we presume as another attorney come into the
house, the woman who was the actress Fran Brill.
And she was also on Sesame Street as a regular at the same
time, so. She's the one who says, oh, he's
brilliant, she's watching him on the chat show.
Yes, yeah, yes. That's it.
Yeah.
So anyway, I just wanted to throw that in because I just it
it it something I took from the film, which was was very
pleasing. I love that song, even though
it's a kids song and you can't buy it commercially.
It's not on Spotify. But you know, anyway, I just
wanted to to throw that in there.
I did note down when he's trying to seduce him.
I've got a song on the TV says you're special to me.
Every time is the right time. So if you want your back again,
you can hear those lyrics coming from the TV being sung.
Yeah, yeah. They're also they've got very
prominently as he arrives in the car at the Rand mansion for the
first time, basketball Jones. Oh yeah, yeah, my friend was
telling me about that. Yeah.
Which is Cheech and Chong which I used to listen to when I was a
kid because my my sister's boyfriend had all the Cheech and
Chong records. When they unwrapped the
chopsticks to be used by the Chinese guests, the packages
were clearly stamped made in Taiwan.
I know it's important to stay informed of all the latest.
Events, but well, I find there's so much to assimilate, it can
become quite muddling at times. If the Chinese were.
Upset. Maybe that's why I can't sleep
tonight. I need help.
I need someone to stand beside me.
I need. I don't know the significance.
There's got to be some significance because it was very
prominently shown in the film that he's watching it on
television. Did you did you read anything to
Internet? No, I didn't notice it until
somebody pointed it out. I don't know.
Not specifically. The one that I really did think
was there for a reason was the also Sprite Zarathustra.
Yes, because he comes out of the door.
He comes out of the door and this is his odyssey because he's
never been outside, so he may as well be going to space, you
know? Yes, yes.
It's almost even a bit on the nose when you notice it.
But I had because I love that. That jazz funk arrangement of
that was brilliant. I loved that it was really like
quite funky and it felt quite 70s actually.
It would have been achingly. Arch and you when you first when
you saw this at the time, I guess it has a, it has a kind of
a datedness to it now, but it's still very effective I think.
It made me think of Blaxploitation, to be honest.
It had that funky, you know, someone kind of going around to
town, walking around with that music on.
Yeah, has a certain notion about it.
But I, I, I thought that was really awful.
I think even when he sees himself on the TV, which is
actually the reason the the limo kind of knocks him over isn't.
It, Oh yeah, knocks. Him over.
I think it's like isn't there like a fake moon in the
background? 2001 possibly.
OK, could be I can't. Remember there was some fake
background with murdered stars and yeah.
And and of course, Zella's linked to Kubrick, of course,
with Strangelove and and Lolita. Oh.
I forgot about Lolita. Yeah, he played more, played two
roles I think in that one as well.
He well he played one character, but who who took on different
personas. Oh, it was actually Claire
Quilty who was different people. Claire Quilty dressing up as
different characters, putting on voices the the German professor
and and and a police photographer.
I think something like that. We covered it relatively
recently. I've completely forgotten the
bit where he goes to that soiree with Eve where he meets the Is
it like the Russian cultural attache?
Yeah, I wrote down. Russian.
Ambassador. Somebody like that, A diplomat.
Yeah, played by Richard Basehardt.
So you've got Richard Basehardt. You've also got Richard Dysart
in this film. Oh, right.
OK. Richard Dysart is the doctor.
Richard Basehard is. Oh, yes, He's sorry.
He's a Soviet ambassador, Vladimir scraping off.
Right. He's the one who projects that
or. Or assumes that chance can speak
Russian. Yeah, because.
Because he nods to something he says, basically.
Yeah, yeah. And and then that's like that
bit with the gay man who propositions him.
Oh. I think it's so funny that twice
he says. I like to watch that was really
clever to two different people and they.
Let me go get Warren, yeah? That was fantastic.
I did a little bit of research actually.
You know the ambassador calls him Krillovian then, if you
cook. Yes he does.
Yes, I. Didn't know about Krylov so I
just researched it. A Russian writer of innocent
sounding fables. Which really?
So the Russian ambassadors kind of picked up on the fact that
chance is simple, but in a good way.
That's sort of childlike, isn't he really?
You know, yeah. Why interrupt your enemies when
they're making mistakes? Is that the proverb?
So if he, if he's if, if. Because obviously Russia and
America were, you know, in the middle of the Cold War at this
time. If the if the ambassador has
picked up the chances as as simpleton and that he's taken in
all these rich, influential Yankees, then who is he?
Who's he to blow the gaffe and tell people that it's the
Emperor has no clothes or whatever, you know?
That's a very. That's a very good comparison,
isn't it? The emperor's got no clothes.
Yeah. Yeah.
No one wants to say it. They want to keep the party
going. Yeah.
Yes, that's it. I want just just talking about
Sellers, He said. It's quite interesting because
he told his friend Max Geldreau, who was from the Goon Show days,
he told him that he looks quite plump.
He said I look plump, which was deliberate.
I wanted the character looks to look stocky.
However, now I've now I've lost almost 30 lbs.
I've made myself rather weak in the process.
But it was necessary for Fu Manchu or for me maybe.
And and that's because the film after this was his last film
released posthumously, which was the fetus plot of Doctor Feu
Manchu, which he plays a very, very slender, almost skeletal
man. Oh, wow.
So he did that. Straight.
After. Yeah, Yeah.
So he had to lose all that weight.
You've never seen that film, I take it?
No, no, I haven't. No, no.
It's it's worth it's worth a watch it it.
I was going to say, if it ever turns up on TV, it won't.
It won't turn up on TV nowadays, I don't think.
But if it turns up for free on Prime, give it a go because it's
not bad. It is bad, but it's not.
It's, it's got interesting stuff in it.
Also, Sellers had a thing where he would, he'd make a film and
then immediately, I mean halfway through making a film, often
he'd hate, he'd say he hates it, but very often he'd complete a
film and say he hates it. Always critical of his
performance and always critical of the films.
Not all of them, but a lot of them, in some cases justifiably.
But, but this was one of the rare films there was a hand.
I mean, he loved Strangelove. He loved I'm all right, Jack.
And he absolutely loved. Yeah, He he really was.
He was delighted with the way this film with with one
exception, and I'll come to that in a second.
He loved the finished film, OK, but apparently he was watching
it. He he was he had a private
showing and some some cinema. With his daughter Victoria, who
would have been why she'd have been what, maybe only 1314, if
that, at this time. And she and she was, she was
rather lukewarm about the film. And he was.
So he was so annoyed. He poured his drink over her
head. What drink was it?
Well, I hope it wasn't hot coffee, but it's an alcoholic
drink. Maybe.
Who knows? Who knows?
But but the, the, yeah, he, he liked the film.
He loved the film, I should say. He didn't like the one thing he
didn't like. And there's two different
versions of this where you get a straight sort of end, you know,
the, the, the end credits. And then you there's the, the
Raphael, what they call the Raphael blooper reel end
credits. Yeah, yeah.
That went out with the film originally, did it?
Yes. He was upset, wasn't he?
He was upset and he thought, he thought that's what that had
cost him the Oscar. It's so funny though, I loved it
when that came. Up well, he's he's a he's a
habitual giggler on film sets. And they had the scene where
people haven't seen it, where he's telling the doctor.
I think about these St. Punks and and and this guy
Raphael that they think he's connected with anyway, and
sellers is well, sellers as chance is trying to repeat what
they said to him and he just keeps bursting into giggles.
It's it's it's it's very funny, but completely I think it is
completely wrong to I, I personally feel it shouldn't
have been stuck on at the end. It is a bit weird because it
just, OK, the film's technically finished, although some people
would say that it's not finished until the credits are rolled,
you know, and suddenly you're just totally out of the film.
Yeah. Yeah, it's a bit, Yeah.
I think it's a good thing to have on a DVD, isn't it really?
It's one of. Those.
That's an extra. Yeah, that's an extra,
especially after the end being him walking on water.
And, and whether you like it or not, it give, you know, you, you
watch that scene. If you're of a certain mindset,
you might watch that scene and and you might want, you know, a
few minutes to sort of contemplate what you've just
seen and then suddenly you've got these outtakes.
Now get this, hunky, you go tell Raphael that I ain't taking no
jive. Sorry that I ain't taking no
jive from no Western Union messenger.
You tell that asshole if he. I haven't actually read the book
I really want to, but I think the original title of the book
was something like The Blank Page or The Blank Slate.
So chance is, chance is, is an empty vessel as we've said, and
he's a person that people can project onto constantly.
Yeah. And so they're just reflecting
themselves. And I think the reason people
like him, obviously it's not realistic, but people like him
because he hasn't got any of those things that we always
associate with people, such as egos.
That's not all people are about, obviously.
But when you're negotiating with people, the lawyers at the
beginning, they're absolutely amazes guys and contesting what
they're saying. Yeah, Yeah, I think Ben Rand
obviously is at the top of business and Bobby's at the top
of politics, and it's probably just so refreshing for them to
have just a person. I think he just makes everyone
feel peaceful. Like I said, he's a bit like, I
actually think of him almost like a house cat, because I love
cats. And what I find funny about cats
is that you're never quite sure whether they consider you part
of their family or they just really like this home.
They, they, you know, obviously they're very good at, at self
preservation and getting the best for themselves.
So they'll find the warmest, they'll find a place near the
radiator to have a nap. And he's a bit like that.
You know, you wonder what he would have done had the limo not
bumped into him, but it did. And he's just kind of got a
cushy number, but he doesn't seem to even realise it.
Well, yeah, because there's a bit where he's.
He wanders outside and one of the butlers or one of the guys,
one of the employees of the of the of Ben Rand says, would you
like a car, Sir? Meaning would you like me to get
you a car to take you somewhere? And Chancellor says, yeah, oh,
yes, I would like a car. But I imagine if he'd actually
got in the car and be driven off, he'd just go where it took
him. He wouldn't be bothered, He
says. He says to Ben during dinner, he
he, he touches on the fact that the he says the old man died.
I think he says they had to close up the house, which I
think Ben interprets as he means he was a businessman and he had
to close his business. That's right, Yeah.
And then? Maybe he lost his business so
he's a bit of a victim he feels sorry for.
Him, that's it, that's it. And then and then and then
chances, all I've got is the room upstairs.
All I've got left is the room upstairs, meaning the room that
he's been staying in UPS literally upstairs.
But Ben interprets that as he's oh God.
Oh, it's really the room upstairs.
Yeah, of course. He's talking about heaven.
Oh no, you know, there's more. There's more to live for man.
Kind of that's that's the there was a a review of the film in
Time magazine when it came out, which I just highlighted because
I thought it was just a little bit from that review because it
was really insightful. I felt it says the the audience
must believe that chance is so completely blank as as you were
saying just before that he could indeed seem to be all things to
all people. Peter Sellers meticulously
controlled performance brings off this seemingly impossible
task. As he proved in Lolita, he is
master at adapting the surreal characters of modern fiction to
the naturalistic demands of movies.
His chance is sexless, effectless and guileless to a
fault. His face shows no emotion except
the beatific, innocent smile of a moron.
Seller's gestures are so specific and consistent that
chance never becomes clownish or arch.
He is convincing enough to make the film's fantastic premise
credible, yet he manages to get every laugh.
And yeah, I think that's that's spot on.
There's not. But like you said, there's not a
lot of laughs. It is.
No, not really. There's not really gags.
It's I suppose if you buy into the absurdity of it, you know,
you could laugh at a few bits, but it's not really gag lines.
No, no. Can I, can I tell you my Peter
Sellers story? That not my personal experience
obviously. Please do.
You knew I was going to mention John Lennon, The Beatles at one
point. But yes, I've got a great story.
I think I heard it directly from Ringo Starr in the sense of
actually saw him on a video saying it.
I think on a radio show when they made Magic Christian in 69.
Yes, I actually think it's quite.
That's great, I love it. Yeah, I think.
Have you reviewed that? Oh yes.
Yeah, yeah, that's what you would have done.
Now Ringostar said that something, I can't remember
exactly what he said, but he said through the day him and
Peter would build up a rapport. They'd go out and have a few
drinks in the evening and you'd think, oh, oh, he's mates.
He's he's my mate now. We're mates.
The next morning sellers might have a hangover or whatever, but
it was almost if the next morning, sellers had forgotten
all the camaraderie that built up, Ringo started.
You almost had to start afresh every day.
Yeah, that's right. That's really.
Interesting, isn't it? And I, I definitely think I've
always seen similarities between John Lennon and Peter Sellers,
partly because I skew more to the, the darker version of what
John Lennon was actually like towards the end of his life,
let's say the last five years. You know, you know, this is
these two kind of polar opposite books that were written and I
see a little bit, I see Lennon Sellers and they actually died
within six months of each other, of course, through very
different means, obviously. But yeah, this this idea of
someone who they have an almost a power in the fact they don't
seem to have a personality. I'm not saying John Lennon was
like this, but John Lennon was definitely a chameleon in some
way or another. You know, he the changes that he
went through, you're never quite sure.
That's why, you know, I think the biopic on John Lennon that's
never been made that should have done is the is the Lennon
version of the Bob Dylan I'm not there film.
Have you seen that? I haven't, but I've heard about
it, which is. Fantastic.
So what he did very cleverly, he took 6 characters, none of which
are called Bob Dylan, but they're all aspects of Bob
Dylan. And Southern seems to be quite
multifaceted. But are all these kind of things
about him as a parent broadly true?
Yeah, they are right. He, I think he liked the idea of
being a parent, but putting it into practice sometimes or often
times was a was a pain in the ass as far as he was concerned.
Sellers could be incredibly generous, incredibly generous
with with friends and family and family, but friends
particularly. But then like for the next day,
like say like with Ringo, the next day it it it could be the
complete he completely be the complete opposite change his
mind. Or he gave he gave Spike
Milligan a car, an old vintage car.
And then I think I'm right saying as a couple of days
later, this this truck arrived at Milligan's and tow truck and
towed the towed the car away because sellers had decided to
give it to someone else, changed his mind giving it, giving it to
someone else. I think, I think Prince, I think
I want to say Princess Margaret. I might be wrong do.
You think there's a do you think there's nothing malicious in it?
Do you think he's just like I just don't literally forgotten
or? I don't think he'd forget.
I don't think he'd forgotten. I think he knew full well, but I
just don't. I think he was.
He was just differently wired. I don't think he was a malicious
man as far as it goes. He could be nasty, but I don't
think he'd like to deliberately hurt people, really.
Yeah, just go, just go back to John Lennon again.
What he had was an amazing ability to sort of
compartmentalise and go through massive changes and seeming
seemingly to fit into the next role.
I mean, we actually did a show about John Lennon as an actor.
There's not really that much to go on, but we said potentially
for some of the same reasons as Sellers.
That personality almost made him perfect for an actor.
And just give me a little example.
I know you know about The Beatles and stuff.
John Lennon had this last weekend period.
And as as with a lot of things, there's two camps now.
One's more premier Co camp. The other camp, which I slant
more towards, is that he was quite happy with Mei Pang and
she was making him behave a bit more like a man.
They were like a boyfriend and girlfriend.
And there's an amazing interview where John Lennon has just moved
back into the Dakota. And obviously the official story
of it, you know, she allowed him to come home.
He'd slayed all his demons, etcetera.
And they do an interview and Mei Pang is brought up.
Someone just said, what about Mei Pang?
And John Lennon said, oh, yeah, yeah, she was a nice girl, you
know, something like that. And just three or four months
earlier, three or four months earlier, he told May that he was
going to divorce Yoko and him and May were actually looking
for a place to live together. And, and within a few months,
you know, John Yoko in my eyes have kind of got their shtick
together. And it's like, oh, May was a
nice girl. It's like he's just completely
changed. So I think I, I see a bit of
that. I see a bit of celebrity there,
you know. Seller's seller's all over that.
Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah. If he'd throw himself into
something and then, you know, turn on a dime and suddenly move
on to something else. It's amazing.
Sure. He had a couple of meet ups with
The Beatles. I know he was presenting them
with an award in 65 and then obviously.
Oh, a grandma award, as he called it.
Yeah, I don't remember much about that, but and then
obviously he's in Get Back and there's a bit of spike.
In this, yeah, it's. What's your interpretation of
that? What's the Sellers camp say?
How do how do Peter Sellers fans look at it from that
perspective? I it's been a while since I
watched, I watched it, I bought the Blu-ray obviously, and it's
due another watch actually over, over a long bank holiday
weekend. So, yeah, I, I think he, again,
he was just, he was just not on form sellers.
I think he sensed that they'd used to sort of look to a degree
that kind of used to look up to him, right?
Certainly, obviously in the early days when he was
presenting them even with the Grammy Award on the set of help,
he was, he'd, he'd been a hero to all of them pretty much,
right. And, and, and I guess to to a
certain degree, they sort of paid court to him in the past.
But by this point, by 69, the power dynamic has totally
shifted. Obviously you know it almost.
I think I'm right in saying that Lennon was slightly contemptuous
to him or towards him. Well, and do you have the bit
where John Yoko being interviewed by a Canadian film
crew and he has to go, He has to stop it because he has to go and
be sick. He was coming off some sort of
druggie night because he even says to them, you know, that's
why that's what I love about it. They're almost like any, any
four guys in the bad, he says. I was got really high last night
and I was up till about 4:00 watching films.
You know, it sounds like something a student would say.
Yeah. The next day.
I think he's obviously, there's actually a bit in the Nagra
tapes where you hear him calling out for pet pills, which is what
they stake in Hamburg. So you still do doctors and
stuff. He he's quite, he's a kind of
guy. Like, you know, you had people
at school who have a sharp tongue and if they turn on you,
they can really mess you up emotionally.
He's a bit like that. I think he's decided to almost
turn on Sellers a little bit. And even Paul says something
quite sarcastic. And what happens actually is as
Peter Sellers is walking out, if you remember, he walks out the
wrong door. He's kind of showing that he's a
bit nervous. And they all laugh at him.
So it's a bit of a shame really. But but ironically enough, when
when John Lennon met Elvis Presley, he's obviously another
massive hero who he felt perhaps had let him down somehow.
He actually affected a Cluso voice when he was at his house.
Thanks fuzzy memories as he was walking off.
That sounded more German, didn't it?
But you. Know it'll take, yeah.
Yeah, Cluso accent, Yeah. So he was sort of taking the
piss as we take out of Elvis as well.
So I think John Lennon always had that thing of, you know,
about that stuff about disappointed father,
disappointing father figures, you know, oh, of.
Course. So oh, of course.
Probably a bit of that as well, you know, everyone was a
disappointment to him, it seems. Bye bye.
Too much people. Way out, way out.
Just don't leave the needle. There's one thing from the book,
actually, from the very first page Chance, like ATV image
floated into the world buoyed up by a force he did not see and
could not name. So that sounds a little bit
spiritual or mystical. You know, he floated into the
world like he's got No, it is curious, isn't it, having no
identity. It's.
Weird. It's a bit like, oh, you know,
it's a good. We probably think you're the
same. Thing I think.
It's a little bit like John Merrick.
Well, at least the film of the elephant.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, well, I'm sure you've
seen that. I love that.
I love that film. And he's an innocent who's
thrust into the public eye and becomes a media darling.
The shades of Kasper Hauser, the shades you've said about Rayman,
we've said about Forrest Gump. Dostoevsky's Prince Michigan
from the Idiot. I think so there's lots, I think
there's there's there's lots of literary echoes for Chance and
I've kind of alluded to it already, but it's not my
favorite Sellers film by a long chalk.
OK. I've always struggled to warm to
it. And I'm sorry to say that
because I know a lot of people absolutely adore it.
And the the tends to be, you know, those that say that it's
Doctor Strangelove that's his greatest film, or it's this film
that's his greatest film. I mean, yeah, for me, I'd say
Doctor Strangelove for sure. Absolutely.
Yeah, absolutely. I'm kind of in a similar camp.
I don't absolutely love it, but it's been so interesting
preparing it for this and then obviously talking to you about
it. It's one of those I've I'm just
doing a series on Citizen Kane and I do love Citizen Kane, but
it's amazing how much more you can get out of something when
someone points stuff out to you or you watch it.
You know, I sat down with Citizen Kane and I tried to work
out the timeline because, you know, if you think Pulp Fiction
was confusing, I mean, sits NK is really confusing 50 years
earlier. So it's been great, but I don't,
I think having made all these notes on this film, I probably
don't need to ever watch it again actually, because I
watched it, I sort of watched it once, but I kind of watched it
almost twice really. I I went back and watched a few
more scenes because I watched it a few weeks ago and then just
recently. So I think I admire it and the
number of ideas in the script. And there's lots of very subtle
stuff that we haven't really. I don't know.
I just ended up with so many notes, I had to stop.
But there are other subtle things that I can't bring to
mind. But there's, there's a lot in
the script. I think I I think maybe I admire
the film. I admire the script more than I
admire the ideas. Maybe the more than I enjoy.
Quote, UN quote. Yeah.
You know, and I'm glad that we both more or less aligned on
this film, but I would welcome feedback from listeners.
Please feel free to comment in the usual places and tell me
why. Tell me why we're wrong about
this film or why I'm wrong about this film and, and why I should
love it unconditionally. I'm not prepared to be
convinced, but try your best. And Anthony, obviously John
Lennon the the podcast is Glass Onion and it focuses very much
on John Lennon the man not. I guess it can't avoid talking
about The Beatles sometimes, but it's very much about John Lennon
as opposed to The Beatles, isn't it?
Yeah, Glass Onion on John Lennon and it's amazing, really.
I've done 108 episodes now and I've.
I think he only made six or seven albums because some of
them are half albums with Yoko and I've only really reviewed 3
or 4 of them. There's loads of his films that
I haven't reviewed as in documentaries and stuff, so it
just keeps on going. Yeah, but I, I use John Lennon
as a launch point. I mean, we've we've done shows.
I did a series like John Lennon in 19676569.
It wasn't done nor do it's quite random.
We actually spent the first part of the podcast probably got
almost like an hour and a half episode.
I'm just looking at the actual year.
And then we looked at the John Lennon stuff after.
Yeah. So I have quite a wide interest
in lots of different things in terms of politics and the world
and everything. So we used to learn in that way.
And yeah, I, I wrote down a few more ideas at the, the end of
last year. And yeah, there's still loads of
biopics and stuff I haven't done.
So I guess it'll keep on rolling.
And I don't really feel like I repeat myself too much.
Obviously you repeat yourself to some extent.
Oh, I know I, I do on this as well.
I know we do. I know.
I think I'm making some original observation and then I think oh
shit Dang, I said that 10 shows ago.
But people don't mind it because you don't, I don't, you know, me
as a, I'm a basically a podcast addict.
As a consumer, I don't mind if people repeat themselves because
it's sometimes things are worth saying more than once, you know,
So such as I find myself saying something on a show.
And I think, yeah, I probably said that about six months ago.
So most people probably have forgotten.
OK, and and one one film goal we mentioned of course, but I
forgot to mention life and life only.
Yes, that's the podcast that I was sort of envisage would take
over from Glass Onion because I felt Glass Onion had a shelf
life and I thought I'll do a podcast about life and then
you're probably never going to run out of material.
Life and life Only is actually a line from a Bob Dylan song
called It's All Right bar I'm Only Bleeding.
But the podcast has nothing to do with that.
It's my psychology. It's a bit of a alternative
media podcasts as well, and sometimes I go into true crime.
I did a couple of shows on 10 Rillington Place which I'm
absolutely obsessed by. Love the film.
Absolutely adore the film. Yeah, well, the the real case is
absolutely incredible because it's part of it is basically
unsolved. No one we know Christie did some
of the murders, but some of the others aren't.
So occasionally I even did a podcast about the Southport Axel
Riddick, Abada and and Lucy Lepi as well recently.
So he'll blind me. Yeah.
So if it's if it's about life, I'll give myself a license to do
anything really blind me, OK. You're a very, a very thoughtful
individual clearly and and I've, I've really enjoyed having you
on and look forward to speaking to you again at some point.
So, so Anthony, thanks and we will speak again.
Yeah, thanks very much. I enjoyed it.
I'm not sure I. Understand I love him 'cause
he's tiny and small. I love you 'cause you're yellow
and tall. Tiny and small love, Yellow and
tall love. Everyone loves through all their
days. Different people, different
ways. I love him 'cause he has to be
fed. I love you 'cause you make your
own bed. He has to be fed, love, make
your own bed, love. Everyone loves through all their
days.