I I know in one show there were there had to be a national
anthem for some Rotanian sort of country in middle Europe, you
know, and I wrote, I composed this national anthem.
Then when Spike Hurt said no, that sounds much too good.
It's I just want to hear one instrument at a time.
So it sort of kind of started with piccolo and then it went to
trombone and then it went to violin or something and.
And and he was absolutely right. It sounded fantastic.
I'd like to think I composed it that way you see.
What a beautiful tune. Has anyone said it in music?
No one has had the courage. Hello and welcome to Goon Pod.
This week I am joined by somebody whose name has been
invoked a lot in recent episodes.
On the On Goon Pod, it is the gentleman who has been doing the
Lord's work for the Goon Show Preservation Society in as much
as. He has completely revamped well,
essentially made a brand new website for the GSPS and he is
Duncan Gray. Hello, Duncan.
Afternoon, Tyler. It's good to be Owen.
I think it must be about two years since we first discussed
doing this, but things have moved on since then.
How long was it? Is it 2 years since you started
working on the website? No, it's it's only a year ago I
I was just started working on the website.
I blame you for the whole thing by the way.
Why is? That we didn't show Preservation
Society. As you know, last year was the
50th anniversary, and I had spent almost 50 years not being
a member. And then you come along with
your podcast encouraging people to join up.
And and I did, and I discovered it doesn't actually cost much.
So I did. And the first the magazine I got
there was a story about the annual general meeting and a
long discussion about what to do with the website.
And there was a request for a volunteer to take it on.
And I have a. Bit of experience is that at an
amateur level and I thought this is going to be me, isn't it?
And about six months later I was, I had the job.
I didn't realize that. Or maybe you've told me I'd
forgotten. I didn't realize that you joined
the Gsps off the strength of this podcast.
Yes. Had you ever been?
Had you ever been a member I'd never liked when you were
younger. I'd never been a member.
I was aware it was there, but the times I'd looked at it, I
didn't seem to be much in it. For someone living in Scotland,
who is? It Wasn't going to travel much.
So, oh, you're Scottish? I'm.
Scottish Yes. I thought you, I thought you
were Welsh with your heavy Welsh accent.
Oh, right. OK.
Sorry, which part of Scotland? The UN, Duncan.
I'm at the moment I'm just just north, just outside Glasgow.
OK. Yeah, I mean the website, I
think it's fair to say most people agree that the what, what
was there before you came along, that the GSPS website was fairly
tired, looking dated. It was.
It was very similar to a thing I had done for another
organization that was just around the term of the
Millennium. And it's at goonshow.org.
I think that's it isn't. It yeah, That was the that was
the best name I could find that hadn't been bought up by
speculators and weren't going to pay for buying a better address.
So that's what we got. Okay.
So Duncan, in terms of your history with the Goons?
This is where most guests talk about how their father
introduced them and. So yeah, and nothing like that.
There was, I don't think in our home we heard any radio comedy
at all until I discovered, I'm sorry, I'll read that again.
Probably the very late 60s. It just radio comedy wasn't a
thing. Then in mid 70s I was at
university and a friend had made a couple of comedy tapes.
And one of them was a couple of goon shows.
There were the EMI from what copies they copied off the EMI
disk which had been released quite recently with the red
forks and missing 10 Downing St. With the annoying fake stereo.
Well, that went over my head because I was a poor student and
I only had a mono tape player. But yes, that's.
That and so that's what he gave me.
And hello Robert, if you ever listen to this later, the tapes
started appearing for sale and the CDs and I started buying
them and they couldn't show compendium and the the script
books. And then eventually the Internet
started and I will. There were some discussion
groups I got involved in so all went from there.
Okay. But aside from the actual Goon
show, were you particularly fond of, you know, Spike on TV
Sellers, films, Highway, even? Not Highway.
Fine. No, certainly.
I mean, I'd enjoyed the Pink Panther films.
The one film that always struck me was Dr. Strangelove.
Not because it was sailors. In fact, the first time I I saw
it I probably didn't appreciate that it was sailors or that he
was playing all those parts and was just an age where I was
aware that this Cold War was going on in mid 60s I suppose.
And show story had a bit of an effect.
Funny with strange love, because I saw it for the first time when
I was about I'd have been about 14 or 15.
So that's the late 80s, very late 80s and where I was growing
up, where I was living at the time, other side of the world.
The Cold War barely caused a ripple on my radar.
You know, a 15 year old boy living in New Zealand in the
late 80s, I didn't really know anything about the Cold War.
Technically we were still, you know, the Soviet Union still
existed. And but, but I didn't know
anything about the Cuban Missile Crisis or any of that at that
time. So when I watched Doctor
Strangelove, because I was keen on sellers, it fell a bit flat
for me on my first viewing because I didn't really
understand it. You know, it's only in
subsequent years as a as an adult and I actually went on to
develop a really significant interest in Cold War history.
So I I learned, read a lot and watched a lot of documentaries
and films and things like that. So, so watching it as an adult,
strange love. It's become one of my favorite
films, of course. But yeah, when I was when I was
a teenager, I just, I liked the German scientist with the funny
voice and the funny arm, but that was about it, you know?
Yes, and lines like you can't fight and hear this is the war
room, but. Yeah.
Well, yes. Yeah, even though I remember
being a very arrogant teenager thinking of that.
That line's a bit obvious, isn't it?
I remember thinking that we knew the how was I to try and
critique the comedy of Doctor Strangelove at that age?
Okay. So today you've come along to
talk about a particular Goon show.
Is it your Well, I know the reason at which will come on to
the reason why? This particular show?
Is it your favorite Goon show or do you have a?
Another favorite good show? That's that's certainly not a
favorite. It's it's not a top 50 favorite,
even. Really.
I don't think. I mean it's it's still a very
good show. No, I just, I thought it was an
interesting story behind it. We could no doubt get into this.
It is one of my favorites of all time, I'll hold my hand up and
say, and I think it gets some fairly overlooked.
And it's a very interesting show for reasons that we will.
Come on to SO, do you want to set the scene in terms of the
reasons why you chose this particular show?
Well, what happened a good few years ago I, they thought
occurred to me. I wondered if there was a good
show made the week I was born, because I'm a bit older than
your average guest on here. So I went into the good Showing
Companion and Luke Send. We go Series 7, episode six.
That's the week. That's the sleeping Prince.
Except there's a new an asterisk and a note saying that it wasn't
broadcast that week because of the political situation at the
time. The story involves a revolution,
and the Hungarian uprising was going on then, and so it canned
until a later date. And the pledge?
The Kingsledge story had repeated that instead.
I would have enjoyed if I'd heard it, but.
Yeah, so ever since I got The Goon Show Companion, I've been
aware of the fact that The Sleeping Prince wasn't broadcast
when it was meant to be broadcast because of the
Hungarian Uprising. I'm sure there's people out
there listening to this who have never heard of the Hungarian
Uprising. Do you want to?
Quickly sort of run through what that involved, what all that was
about. OK, so we're back into the Cold
War again. But back in in those days, the
really was a heavy repression by the Russians and all the other
countries of the Warsaw Pact as it was those ones east of the
Iron Curtain and. There was, of course, resentment
in those countries. Then The story probably really
starts in 1953, when Stalin died and there was a bit of waiting
for the leadership and Khrushchev finally gained power.
Then, early in 1956, he made a secret speech to the.
After convention and slagging off a lot of what Stalin had
done, but it's a secret that was very quickly spread around the
world. It got leaked and the in Hungary
and other countries that took the got the idea that okay,
maybe this repression is going to be a lot easier.
And they started pressing for reforms.
Unfortunately for them, Perestroika was still 33 years
away. But they were.
They were allowed down an election, and then the
government was came in with Hamster, Naggy in charge.
She'd been a long standing. I believe it's pronounced Imre
Nash. Nash, yeah.
OK, sounds fair. So Nash probably believed they
had some power, but then there was more pressure for reforms,
some demonstrations, some students.
Demonstrated outside the AVH, which was the Hungarian version
of the Stasi. They got arrested, more students
protested, they got shot and the whole thing descended into a
civil war which got rather bloody.
Yeah, and then the day that the goons assembled in the Camden
Theater to record. The Sleeping Prince.
Well, that wasn't called the Sleeping Prince, but we'll come
to that. But the day that they, the day
that they were due to record, was the day, I believe, that the
Soviet tanks rolled into Hungary for.
Many days the fighting continues, with now the
government, now the insurgents gaining the upper hand.
Running battles move from street to street.
But as the toll of dead and wounded grows heavier, it
becomes clear that the rebels must win.
But they have the great mass of people behind them.
Desperately, every Nazi's government seeks a way out.
A few days ago it had asked the Russians to help.
Now it begs them to leave. But some of the Soviet tanks
will never leave when they have been captured or destroyed by
the insurgents they were ordered to.
Yes, Naz had made a declaration that Hungary was now independent
and he was calling in the West for support.
And that was the last straw and which was, as you say, the same
day as. The Guns had the recording of
the the show, the 6th episode of series seven.
It was a sort of much the same, if you think back to Foiled by
President Fred, which I know you discussed previously.
Yeah, and by the way, I'd forgotten the similarities in
theme. Yeah, teams between that and I'd
also forgotten that the because I think I said in that episode
when I did, foiled by president Fred that the general Aston
Villa voice that Sellers did was a one off or something along
those lines. Yeah, when of course it turns up
in this show. Just to confuse my ass, yes.
Yeah. Yeah, same as Fred President
Fred. Neddy is is getting sent to
South America where there's a revolution going on, except that
there must have been something in the air that warned that this
wasn't really going to work. Such a even story about a
revolution that week, and I've had a look at the original
script and. What a lot of changes made, I'm
guessing on the day. Well, for start, one of the
fundamental changes was that the story, the script, the show was
originally to be called the President's Protocol.
Yeah. Which is which is which is a
very almost like a sort of Eric Ambler or Alistair MacLean kind
of novel title. Yes, that's that's what I
thought as well that's that's not really a.
A good show title, but that's that's what it was.
And then I'm looking at the front page of the script and
it's Larry Stevens copy, which you've probably got there as
well. There's been replaced with The
Sleeping Prince and The Sleeping Prince.
Really, there's no, there's no relation with the story
whatsoever. It just seems to get sledged,
hammered. In there is the title Every
time. I wonder if just oh, I've got a
recording of some snoring here, Let's all cable.
Just here's the thing. It hadn't until I was listening.
Until you and I agreed to cover this show.
And I listened to the show obviously again, and I hadn't
listened to it for quite some time.
And then I was doing a research and and and it hadn't occurred
to me until now that the Sleeping Prince element bears
absolutely no relation to the story.
Okay. I mean, I kind of subconsciously
knew that, But why didn't the question I I wrote on my notes
in capital letters. Why didn't the Sleeping Prince
element bother me when I first heard the show?
If you don't want to be, why couldn't I question what the
hell has that got to do with this Revolution storyline?
And yeah, I just wonder why they went with The Sleep, the
Sleeping Prince. The only thing is there's a
there's a play by Terence Ratigan called The Sleeping
Prince. Do you know about this?
It was written in 1953 and it was it was written to coincide
with the Queen's coronation. Okay.
And I haven't read the play or read up on the play, but I
believe that it was bought by Marilyn Monroe's production
company and then adapted as the film as the Prince and the
showgirl Okay and Larry. Olivia had had starred in the in
the original play and as the as The Prince, I presume, and then
he also appeared alongside. Monroe in The Prince and the
showgirl, of course. Now I I don't know from from
what I could from the little bit I read about the play.
I can't see any references to South American revolutions or
anything like that. So I don't know why or if there
was any connection in Larry or or Spike's mind when they came
to change the title of the show and and all they did is they
just added. I think you pointed out to me,
they they added in, they they crossed out bits in the script
and in Biro wrote little bits for Wallace to announce at
various junctures throughout the show when you would hear this
snoring. But yeah, it had nothing to do
with the actual plot. And as I always do, I want to
give a bit of a context as to what else was happening.
Of course the the major story in the news.
On the 4th of November, was the Hungarian or They did the well
the Hungarian uprising and the Soviet tanks entering Hungary.
The day after the show was recorded, the last episode of
Son of Fred was broadcast. Yep, that's right.
I had spotted that as well. Yeah, yeah.
And. Not that it was a broadcast in
this area, but parts of England got it so.
Well, I think it was it was the London area made it was it was
associated rediffusion, wasn't it?
Or was it was it? I think that worked well.
I don't know how much of A network and I was at the time.
I believe there were other parts of England got it, but it was
before the network was properly developed, so.
Right Okay. Also on that day, on the Monday
the 5th, Harry appeared at the Rural Command performance.
But the Queen pulled out of attending because of the
international situation. And on that day, on the Monday,
an episode of Desert Island Discs featuring Spike was due to
be broadcast. But it was it was pulled owing
to extended news coverage of the Hungarian crisis.
And so that episode of Desert Island Discs was broadcast on
the 10th of December and also during that week.
Spike did appear on the Light program on Question Time.
Yeah, I've seen that. I think that was actually later
than that week. I think that was.
I think that was the week of Sleeping Prince eventually was
broadcast. Oh, right.
Oh well, very good for picking up on that.
I for some reason I had it down as the week it was recorded.
Question Time for those overseas listeners may not know it.
Is a sort of major political TV show now where a studio, a
studio audience gets to ask politicians of the day questions
which they will happily ignore. Yeah, yeah.
They very rarely go off message, do they?
Yeah, but in those days, Question Time was a day.
So if you had a panel of experts on a topic and.
Some of the public with questions and on this occasion
the topic was humor and the audience came from a Middlesex
youth club and the experts were Spike with Joyce Grenfell, who I
think you've discussed on the show before, and Gerald Hoffman,
who probably you haven't. No, I haven't.
I think I've had a few people. Talk quite admiringly about half
done, but we've never discussed them in any detail.
Yeah, it was. There's another It was
unfortunate. He he died very suddenly in his
early 30s, I think just 59 or so.
He really was a tremendous performer.
He was a cartoonist, musician. Classical music was his big
thing. Not long after he was dead in
the mid 60s, Allison Bachelor along with the BBC made a series
of cartoons in his style which were called Tales from Hoffman
and and who was The Who did? Who was the voice talent?
And some of them no Peter Sellers.
Peter. Sellers.
No. Yeah.
The the best known one is is the first one, which is doesn't
doesn't have any voice over at all.
It's a conductor and a concerts. But the second one was Peter
Sellers was doing a sort of depressed man trying to tell his
young son the facts of life. But.
Some of them on YouTube and it's looking out for.
Here goes. Come along, my boy.
Yes, I think the time has come. I would like to have a talk with
you. You see, there are certain
facts. Let us face it.
Now look at me. I am your father, am I not?
My bye, My bye, my dear, dear boy.
We must look at life in a sensible way.
No nonsense, no mystery, no enigma.
What was I going to say? What What became The Sleeping
Prince was recorded on the 4th of November 56, but it was not
actually broadcast until the 14th of February 1957.
And this is where things get a bit confusing as well.
So obviously the the international situation had come
sufficiently that they felt it was permissible to stick out
the. Sleeping Prince broad to
broadcast it in in February 57. It comes out after the week
after the mysterious Punch Up the conquer and the week before
around the world in 80 days And it caused a little bit of do you
know about this Duncan? It caused a little bit of
confusion with the show numbering.
I mean this doesn't really matter to anybody else but it's
it's kind of interesting to Adal Goon show fans like me it it it.
In total, paperwork designates the show The Sleeping Prince
Show as the 20th episode of series 7 because because of
that, Spike and Larry designated the show that was to follow the
Sleeping Prince around the world in 80 days as the 21st episode
of series 7. But the problem is that the show
is considered to be both the 20th episode of series 7.
And the 6th episode of series 7, which means that there isn't,
technically speaking, there really isn't a 20th episode.
Yeah, 7. And they all got the week off.
Yeah, it's all very confusing and if people want to find out
more about that then please send me a stamped address envelope
and I will send you a very lengthy and very boring
explanation. OK, so.
The episode itself, I know you pointed out about the script.
It's you suspect that Larry was a little bit cheesed off.
Yeah, the rewrites. He's he's scored his name out
and there's been another put in the front cover to Pat Dixon's
name, so it's supposedly read Spike Milligan and Pat Dixon.
Pat Dixon was the producer at the time.
And it's as if Pat Dixon was probably working on orders to
make some changes to try and get the show through that week.
If you asked me, I would have said OK, if one of the two
writers was going to be temperamental and awkward about
this, it would have been Spike. And perhaps he was.
We don't know. But it's just that we've got
Larry's script to go on, haven't we?
Yeah, and it's. Pat Dixon, somebody I'd like to
know a lot more about. But he does seem as the
reputation of being this great defender of free speech.
And so he wouldn't. He wouldn't have done anything
like that lightly. No, I guess he was just, yeah,
he was just having to bow to orders from above.
Well, obviously trying to get the show out that week, which is
his job, so yeah. So what they've done.
So as I say, they they've they've shoehorned in these
little references to a sleeping Prince.
They've they've crossed out references to references to
Civil War, haven't they? And they've just replaced the
word civil or the phrase civil war with the word revolution.
Yeah, yeah. And they've taken out all
references to South America and made it the South Pacific.
Just by idea, say, just to make it seem a little less
contentious, I mean, nobody. You may think of a revolution in
South America, but nobody ever thinks of Fiji having a
revolution or. Wow, funny enough, in the 80s
the Saint remember Fiji had loads of Coos.
Electric Coos. No, but you are right, the South
Pacific certainly at that time would not have not, would not
have been synonymous with the violent uprising.
But of course, yeah, all they've done is they've just, they've
just in the script, they've just changed South America to the
South Pacific. But we still have characters
such as General Gonzalez Mess, who I referred to earlier.
Yes, the the Rhino talks that this isn't Latin America.
Yes, sorry, at that point and that was about halfway through
in the of the run out of time changing things.
I mean, Greenslope does turn up with a French accent towards the
end, so I'm wondering whether as he always does, Yeah, I'm just
wondering you could you could stretch your point and say,
wasn't it French Tahiti back in the?
Tahitis French and some of the other Polynesian islands, I
think. I need the El Gobo demands
unconditional surrender. What are his terms?
£5 down at three or nine a week. Tell me we've figured over.
I've got this theory about Greenslade and the French
accent. I mean he before he joined the
BBC he worked for the P&O shipping line.
He was, and I've got this feeling that the French accent
may be intended as revenge on every awkward French customer he
ever had. His torturous rendering of the
French accent? Yes, quite possibly.
And I suppose because it's not, it's not necessarily a show that
gets talked about very much, even in goon circles.
But it is famous. If it's famous for anything,
it's probably famous for the glorious national anthem.
Absolutely. I think it's seven times it gets
played during the episode. Yes, that's just that is just
the highlight. In 1991, Angela Morley was
interviewed and talks about Spike asking for this national
anthem and. And it's a series.
And don't ask me to name all the different instruments that are
used, but it's a series of different instruments.
And each time they were played, this was played to Spike.
He said no, it sounds too good. He wanted he wanted it to sound
much more lame, much more off kilter, I suppose.
It did occur. It did occur to me once, so I
wonder if I could have that played at my funeral.
Can you imagine? Curtains open.
Hawkin disappears through the curtain, setting for the oven.
And that's plain yeah, great. It would be a shame though, to
be able to see it. And it was.
Happening. It's not that long though.
You might need the 12 inch version of the theme tune
extended version. It's only about 14 seconds or
something that. Yeah, the synopsis for the show
which. I have taken from the
transcription services variety catalog.
Ed Hearn, the lively radio reporter, is set to cover a
dangerous assignment in the Republic of Yakibaku where the
newly elected president, Mr. Nettie Tom Dick Harry Segun, is
due to be installed. But all is not well and there
are rumors of a coup. President Segun is in danger.
How his brilliant strategism saves the situation and his life
is revealed in this program. There's a stronger plot all the
way through this than most shows, I think.
I suppose so, and it has a proper twist at the end, which
was good. My first criticism, and I'm not
going to be too critical about the show, but I don't like the
bit right at the beginning where Wallace talks about the big
fight. I don't.
It's just a lame joke. It's not.
It's not strong at all. This is the BBC Light program.
Here is the result of last night's big fight.
Patrick O'donovan, laborer of no fixed address, six months.
Michael O'bolligan fined £5. Yeah, what they should have
done, you should have had him announcing this is the BBC home
service and then straight into the national anthem.
Yeah, that's that's how it should have been.
Yeah, that's a that's a really is quite a lean joke.
Maybe it was original black then, but we've all heard that
many times since. One of the things, one of the
elements of the original broadcast that was cut for the
transcription services version where references to Christmas.
Yes, I There was no important reason for it being Christmas in
the Labor exchange. Well, it's it's recorded in OK,
it's early November, so it's a bit too early these days.
It wouldn't be too early for. Christmas.
This is 1956. I mean, I don't England's
different, but up here Christmas didn't even become a public
holiday until 1958. So hang on, hang on.
Sorry you didn't have Christmas Day off.
No, that wasn't a public holiday until 1958.
Blimey, yeah. New Year.
How many? How many is much more important,
isn't? It, yeah, And still well.
Of this day, Boxing Day is not a public holiday here.
It's the 2nd of January. Yeah, Okay, yeah.
So yeah, with the labor, another references, another reference to
a labor exchange, which Spike was very fond of.
In fact, I was watching one of his queue sketches, which was
largely set in a labor exchange. He's got a real fondness that
can see, doesn't he? Because, again, I suppose it's.
And I said this on a previous show.
When we're talking about insurance, the white man's
burden, the phrase labor exchange to me just conjures up
this rather drab image of a rather pale, sad faced men
sitting in a waiting room waiting to be cold, you know?
And Neddy arrives, wishing everyone a Merry Christmas, and
he's trying to avoid work. I suppose it's fair to say.
Is is looking for a job that doesn't involve work?
Yeah, and he's he's met by Grit Piper Moriarty.
So again, it's one of these scams played upon Eddie by Grit
Piper Moriarty, isn't it? Yeah, Mori Moriarty is a
minister from the Republic of Yukabaku.
I love the way Milligan pronounces Yukabaku.
Yeah, it bounces about quite a bit, doesn't it, Between them?
Yeah. And I'm get, I mean, it's almost
like Sally's struggles with the word, because there's a couple
of times when Milligan has to say it for him, but I'm not sure
if that's if that's just done for comic effect.
I am count. Fred Legs Moriarty.
Thank you. Unimportant Minister.
Extraordinary to the Republic, yes.
Eddie, you must stop those witty salads and report to me at once.
Merry Christmas. Thank you, Ned.
So they tell Ned that there's a unemployed job going with money
attached and it is to become the president of this Pacific
Republic. It pays £40,000 in yakapu
yakapaku money. And then we we have segone bound
for the South Pacific and we have.
Ed Hearn, the American voice that Peter would occasionally
essay. I think it was on the Parkinson
show that he said that very often they would come.
He would come up with voices based on the sounds rather than
the words, So her and her and her and her and her kind of.
Thing I think of it as a sort of Voice of America shortwave
broadcast that that we're hearing that.
Yes, it's a very, very authoritative, kind of almost Ed
Morrow kind of voice. This is Station Hearn Hearn of
the Hearn Hearn Network. Ed Hearn reporting today on
board the liner s s Hearn Hearn arriving at the part of Punk and
Otis in the Republic of Yucabar. Cool is the newly elected
President Mr. Nettie Tom Deck Harry Seguin of London, England.
Hearn Hearn of the Hearn Hearn I hopes are entertained of the
installation of this 23 stone President will have a
stabilizing effect on the country.
So Seguin arrives in at the port of Yakibeku.
Is is told that this revolution in progress and he's.
He's being shot at and he's shown or he's taken to his
private chambers, which turns out to be William.
He's from the Battersea Labor Exchange.
He's got that job. So obviously just repeating on
the joke about the people being given jobs in Yakobaku from
England. I didn't check actually.
Did you check in the script? Because there's one point where
William talks about what does he say?
Let me just see me script here. He said.
I haven't had any Connor since the revolution started and I
thought that was possibly an ad Lib, but was that actually in
the original script? Yes, Chris, I say.
Connor spelt KONNAH. Right, Okay, I'd never heard of
that slang before. Had you heard of?
That Not at all, no. And all I could find, and I'm
not even sure if this is accurate, is that it was army
slang for tinned food. That would make sense, yeah.
Yeah, yeah. So before we go any further, one
thing I forgot to ask, we've skipped over Max Galdrey's
number with regards to the music in the Goon Show.
You know, do you steadfastly listen to every single note or
do you skip forward? I never ever skipped forward.
I think I possibly did once as I says that.
First, those first good shows I had with the MI recording, which
didn't have the music on them and it was a bit of a surprise
when I started getting good shows that did.
But I may have skipped over once or twice.
But it was the days of cassette tape and it was all too much
bother. So nowadays I know I wouldn't
it's I'm I'm a big admirer to Max these days anyway.
I think he's absolutely terrific.
When I was growing up, a mouth organ was a common thing.
I mean, I knew two or three people would always have one in
their pocket and would come up with a tunic from time to time.
But nowadays, I mean I've When's the last time you saw a
harmonica? It was probably an episode of
I'm Sorry I Haven't a Clue from 15 years ago because Graham
Garden used to occasionally pull his.
Now forking out. And when he was, when he was
doing one song to the tune of another as Bob Dylan or
something, Yeah, a little flourish at the end.
Yeah, because I actually, I hadn't heard one for years and
then two or three months ago I was in Belfast and there was a
there was a fellow busking outside.
Does it St. George's Market there?
Yeah, and there was a there was a fellow at the harmonica
busking, and it was the first time I'd seen one in years.
Buskers. These days they've moved on from
the harmonica, haven't they? Buskers.
Yes, but I mean, I just, I admire what Max could do with
that instrument. I mean, if you've listened to
Bob Dylan's Sucking Blow style and people like Max.
Always is is lifting it almost to concerto level.
Yeah, quite remarkable. I want to ask you as well,
because you did mention I meant to we we kind of got tied up
talking about the Hungarian uprising, but you mentioned that
you didn't, you didn't grow up in a house with certainly you
sort of listening to radio comedy.
Did you did you go out watching TV comedy?
Did you were you into comedy generally?
Were you a younger, a younger man?
I liked it. Comedy wasn't a big thing, you
know, And I was trying to remember back we saw some
setcomes just because there was only like two or three channels
at most. So you did.
It was a big final Harry worth it shows.
His shows were good. Harry Worth, who's mainly
remembered now, I guess, for that window, yeah.
Thing, isn't he? Yeah, but he was this fun,
bumbling character. It's funny, though.
He's almost completely forgotten now, even among people like me,
you know, who are into old comedy.
Yeah, really into old comedy he's never talked about.
Okay, here's here's a test on old comedy for you.
One of the earliest sitcoms I remember seeing was All Gas and
Gators. Yeah, Did you know that one?
Yeah, I mean, it was a it was a clerical comedy, wasn't it?
Yes, it was. It was the Father Ted of its
time. Was it?
I want to say, Robertson hair? Was he?
That sounds separate, right? Derek Nemo, I think was the.
Derek Nemo. Was the Indian leads Yeah, Jones
Sanderson is a battle axe wife. Of course, didn't actually go
into the opening credits. Did James Anderson play anything
other than a Battle X? No, not really.
No, I don't think so. No.
But I mean all gas for those who haven't seen it, all gas and
Gators imagine Father Ted, but it's certain somewhere in the
Church of England. It's for BBC One in the mid 60s.
It's all about drinking glasses of Sherry and the main argument
seems to be between the Anglicans and the Methodists.
Yeah, I have. I I watched, I've watched it at
least a couple of episodes over the years with friends because
we watch a lot of old comedy, general, whatever we can get,
you know? And I remember now yet.
Derek Nemo as the young kind of upstart.
Yeah. Priest And then you've got
Robertson here. And I think your man, William
Mervyn, is that his name? From Mr. Rose, the television
show Mr. Rose. But yes, that was.
John Barron was in it as well. John Barron, yes.
Okay, that was the other one. But yeah, it wasn't.
It wasn't laugh out loud slapstick comedy, that's for
sure. 11 show I remember seeing at one point was the radio ham
the Hancock episode which coincidentally, as Google tells
me this morning that it's the 62nd anniversary of its first
broadcast. I say that that was that was I
saw that. But such was my ignorance of
things, it wasn't until. I was in the 1990s.
I was on the Internet and there were discussion groups and old
radio comedy. I discovered there was actually
a Hancock radio series. Wow.
Really. That's yeah.
I didn't I I missed an awful lot and the and the things I think
of I hadn't heard any around the horn or Navy Lark or.
Look, I'm not. I'm not giving anything away
here because you've already revealed that you were born in
late 56, okay? So you are a gentleman in your
60s. But I gather that from what
you're telling me, you didn't really discover classic comedy
till you were. Much later in life, really, than
most of us would have done. Yeah, as I said I was.
I was at university when I got that first good shows tape.
And yeah. There were two or three other
things. I mean, it was some Stanley
Holloway monologues and things like that.
I did. I mean, I did like comedy and
there's A and I had picked up on a few things when I was at
secondary school. We had a music teacher and it is
mean. His main target was to get us
doing a Gilbert and Sullivan operator at the at the end of
the year, but it would, it would come up with some a variety of
things and one of the things he introduced us to was Spike Jones
and his city slickers, which I a couple of weeks ago, well,
couple of months ago now, probably I lost half a day.
I went on to YouTube and put in searches for Spike Jones and
Doodles Weaver and just lost half the day watching some of
the stuff that's so in there. It's absolutely wonderful.
Around the first turn, Stu Jan is still in front cabbage is
second by a head cabbage. By a head.
Beautiful. Linda is third and Beetle Bomb
into the backspets. Dog Biscuit is now leading the
pack. Lady Evelyn is second, Very
close. Banana is coming up through the
bunch. Banana coming up through the
bunch. And Beetle bomb at the half.
Stu Jan still out in front apartment house is second with
plenty of room assault. This passing battery is notary,
so Jack is for than in last place by 10 lengths.
I believe it is. Yes, it is feet.
Oh. My the the the man who inspired
Spike Milligan's pseudonym. Isn't he?
Well, that's what's arguments about that.
Was it Spike Jones or was it Spike Hughes who was a British
jazz trumpeter? Was it?
I always thought it was Spike Jones.
And then I've got And then I've got.
I've got. I've got Spike Dixon.
I'm thinking Spike Dixon. No, Spike Dixon.
Was it Heidi High? Yeah, I know there was a BBC did
a I think it was BBC Radio did a documentary about spank Jones
called King of the Baby Bells and Spike Milligan was certainly
on that. Saying what an influence he was.
And then so was George Chisholm. George Chisholm, who presumably
I'm assuming was part of the Glorious National Anthem
Orchestra I. Presume so, yeah.
When I was first introduced to the Greens.
Oh, George Chisholm. There's a name I know at least
because he was Scottish and he got written about in Scottish
newspapers and. Yeah.
So back to the back to the show, so that he is the newly
installed president and there's there's the sound of rapid
machine gunfire and that he's talking with the General
Gonzales Mess, who is leader of both sides in the glorious
revolution. And and that he says, hey,
somebody shot at me and Gonzales Mess says it's your imagination.
And he says, then what are these bullet holes in my bed sheets?
Gonzalez Mess says they are looking through Senor, which is
just gets a great reaction from the audience and that becomes a
bit of a running gag. It's just continually getting
shot at him. Earlier on he was when he
arrived on Yakabaku, he was sent off on a a trip through the
streets and an open, open top car while Greg Pipe and Moriarty
followed in an armored vehicle. Then he's then off to the
British embassy because he wants to meet the British ambassador.
Of course. Who else would it be?
Winning. Mr. Ambassador, I am the new
president. Splendid.
I'll open a tin of prune great twisted nuglers there early
tonight. One the naughty revolution Part
2, you mean The drain method is disgraceful.
Fighting after 5:00. O'clock.
We can't afford to pay them overtime.
Come on to me, chief. All in Miami.
Season your But First, our glorious National Anthem.
No. Merry Christmas.
Thank you, Senor. Now Imperial Army of Yakabaku on
plane. Imperial Army Shem present ham
Imperial Army from. The right number. 1.
All correct in your. And to me, what follows, which
is straight after the Railington number, to me, is one of the
greatest echoes and Blue Bottle sequences in the show's history.
Yeah, it's just a great example of that tape and Blue Bottle
gets the left best line in the whole show.
Yeah, so we've got, we've got echoes and.
Blue Bottle, who are the the army?
The army? They are in the in the jungle,
in the rebel held jungle. Not quite sure what they're
doing there. They just they're just
responsible for guarding the president basically.
And Blue Bottle asks Eccles how he got the job of being in the
president's army and Eccles won it in a raffle and Blue Bottle
got his from a cracker at Myrtle Springs birthday party.
Yes, and the blue bottle cut his uniform out of the back of a
cornflakes packet. Yes.
Have you ever fired your gun? Yet.
Oh no. Oh no.
Let us fire it then. Oh yeah, you're that's a good
idea. You fired it.
Oh, no, no. You, you know you part a gun.
No, you're the one with the bullet.
You do it. No, no, no.
I haven't signed for it. You, I don't want to do that.
I don't. I don't want to have any trouble
on my end. I don't want that.
I've been to the doctor and he said I got nothing like that
about him. I got an uncle in Australia.
You be careful what you said to me.
I got an uncle in. Australia.
The Boss Pond Rd. Best Shirt Wash.
No. Well then, you watch what you're
saying. Echoes is trying to intimidate,
I suppose. Blue Bottle at one point.
And then he only could. The only thing he could grasp at
is to is to shout I've got an uncle in Australia.
You be careful what you say to me.
I've got an uncle in Australia. Yeah, and I don't.
I don't get the bit the Blue Bottle says.
But Blue Bottle then counters with You heard of the Bulls Pond
Rd. Best Shirt wash, I think.
And Echo says no and he says, well then you watch what you're
saying. I don't.
I don't get that if I am I missing something there.
The Balls Pond Rd. comes up a few times over the over the
series. It's just a funny name.
I think there's a street in London.
Well, it's got the word balls. Exactly, yeah.
Yeah. I think just trying to be silly
with it. I think is the explanation.
And Blue Bottle manages to trick Echoes into firing his rifle
Echo. Yeah.
What is that dirty little piece of curve metal sticking up from
under your rifle? Yeah.
That I don't know. Yeah, Echo.
Catch your finger on it and then see what happens.
OK. Did someone find a guarantee?
Oh no. There.
What's this hole in the seat of my trousers?
That's what looking. Through.
Let me have a look through. I remember when I first heard
this laughing so much when Neddy says what's this hole in the
seat of my trousers? And Blue Bottle says that's for
looking through. And I laugh so much at that.
And then when Echo says here, let me have a look through and
then there's that. Perfect pause and he goes and
you hear somebody presume that must be sellers kind of loses it
off mic and it's just a real deep appreciation of the
performance you know and I just now I just thought it was that
was such a brilliant little sequence and I don't quite know
so. Again, I didn't quite know what
this meant when I first heard it because Echoes is looking
through the hole and Ned's trousers and he says there's
somebody inside and it's a stowaway and it's blood, knock
and Ned. He says Gad, the British
ambassador, what were you doing in my trousers?
And in the script there was something written for him to say
and it's been heavily crossed out to the to the extent I can't
actually read through the crossing out what was said.
And then it's just replaced with the word slumming in Myro.
And the line slumming got a huge response from the audience,
didn't it? Yeah.
Did it seem? Did it seem a little bit
excessive to you? Yeah, there may well have been
some carry on going on on stage, as that often was.
Yes. It was quite interesting.
One of the one of the articles I.
Published on the website recently was a BBC engineer, a
recording engineer, Eddie Mills and he he did a full description
of what it was like at a a recording and he talked quite a
bit about they would actually use it as technique for some
sort of carry on on stage just to get a better laugh and there
were times where. They didn't think the sound
effect was going to be too effective, so there'd be some
sort of visual gag going on. At the same time, the audience
in the studio might never have heard the sound effect, but the
recording had it with the sound effect and a great laugh, so you
can never be sure what's going on in the background of these
things. Blood Not reveals the sinister
plot to assassinate Seguin and take his wages.
And that he flees the presidential palace and accepts
an offer from the rebels to sleep in their prison free of
charge. And we have a rather shoehorned
in Minnie and Henry sequence. Yeah, just they're trying to
prepare him. Just just get them in for the
couple of lines. So they've been in the show and
that's about it. Yeah, and this is quite dark.
The the, the preparing Neddy for his execution.
And Sega has his last request. He he asked that they play the
glorious national anthem again. But he says for Plunger, Bailey,
White, Chunky, Pinhead and all the lads in Q7 at Battersea
Labor Exchange, I'd like you to play your glorious national
anthem. Did did anything jump out at
you, that list of names? Not specifically the best known.
Have you ever read Milligan's war memoirs?
I've a long time ago. Of these, right okay.
Of these characters from these his past.
Wow. Certainly the name you jumped
out at me was Plunger Bailey Okay.
He was in Bexhill on Sea with Spike and the lads, and he had a
celebrated act, if you like, which I'll described as quite.
Sensitively, it consisted of him performing a series of wedding
tackle impressions, if you like, such as with titles such as The
Last Turkey in the Shop, Sausage on a Plate and, with the aid of
a pair of spectacles, Groucho Marx.
Yes, the last Turkey in the shop was in.
Was it the Red Fort episode that was performed?
It's. The last take in the shop was a
phrase that spiked like to use a lot, but yeah, so, so under the
cover of the Yakibaku in National anthem, Neddy makes
good his escape and that, that and that is it, is it?
It's so hard with these goon shows to to do justice to them,
of course. Yeah.
That's. It's an unusual ending and that
all of a sudden maybe has done something sensible.
He's created the diversion, got the whole shooting party to
stand to attention, and disappeared while they're doing
that. It's just unusual.
He's got one over on Piper Moriarty, which does happen, but
not not often. And then right to the end, I
guess they they had to do this because they've been doing it
all through the show. You have just been listening to
The Sleeping Prince, oh Prince, Prince.
What? What?
Come on, Prince.
Time to go home. And so in this week's gun show.
Again, I just don't know and it never I've said it before.
It just never occurred to me when I used to listen to the
show that there was absolutely no connection or what the reason
was. I think I may have thought that
cuz I know in the in the last. At last to go on show, when
Angela Morley's interviewed about the national anthem, she
describes the country that the anthem is for as being like a
Ruritanian country, I think like in The Prisoner of Xenda, which
would have a Crown Prince kind of figure.
So maybe that kind of I'm thinking that there's a there's
a Prince who's asleep while the president is being shot at, you
know? Possibly but.
Possibly, but Angela tended not to have a great memory of
details from the truth from the Goon Show.
She should often say you'd have to ask Max because.
That's right. Because she she saw quite a bit
of Max galdry in later years as well, wasn't that?
Of course this was recorded on the 4th of November 956.
What happened on the 5th of November?
50. Six Well, the Hungarian uprising
wasn't the only little war that was going on.
The 5th was the startup. Well, the military start of the
Suez crisis. All this moral high ground we
must respect the Hungarian people was a was a bit shaky
because you know that should we talk about the.
Explain what explained the Suez story.
Yeah, of course they didn't call it the Suez Crisis at the
beginning because that would have been rather foolhardy.
But yeah, it was. It was what was to become known
as the Suez Crisis. Yes, it was.
Basically there was a conspiracy between Israel, France and
Britain, and Egypt had nationalized the Suez Canal.
Which the British and French had always run and started charging
fees, money that they used to build the Yasuan dam.
Eventually, and of course this was seriously increasing the
cost of trading with the colonies for the British and
French. So the plan was they got the
Israelis to invade. So the Israeli army swept down
through into the Sinai Peninsula, and then the British
and French were going to pretend to be peacekeeping forces and
they would move in, create a Demilitarized Zone between the
Egyptians and the Israelis, which would just happen to
follow the line of the Suez Canal.
And the Egyptians weren't stupid.
Nasser wasn't stupid. So what was happening?
And you just scuttled a dozen ships in the canal and blocked
it anyway? The British were relying on the
Americans coming in. Well, that was part of it.
But the Russians were also making threats that the French
it wasn't, let alone they would they were going to cause
trouble, which. Which I don't know if the
Americans wanted any part of its enemy, but that's certainly made
sure they weren't going to. Well, it was an embarrassing, it
was an embarrassing climb down for Eden, Prime Minister Anton
Eden because Eisenhower basically told him that all this
had to cease with immediate effect and and it effectively
ended his premiership, didn't it?
That that, well, Eden had. In Parliament assuring them that
there were peacekeeping forces of what we were sending, which
was untrue. Yeah, lying politicians.
Yeah, and Russia invading countries.
Nothing ever changes. No, no, no and and the goons, of
course. The Suez Crisis has been
reflected in several goon shows and referenced and.
Yeah, three episodes after the. Sleeping Prince was broadcast
was Africa Ship Canal and that was, that was a pure satire on
the on the Suez crisis you've got you've got an absolutely
inept parliament debating the problem with the canal being
blocked. You've got good pipe and
basically conspiring to steal the canal.
And it's just, it's just pure political satire, as I think the
Greens did, and it went down. The BBC allowed it with an
argument, apparently, which just shows the state of the country
at the time. Yeah, well, I've.
I've said before, probably on this show.
I know I've said it on another podcast.
Maybe not this, maybe a podcast had been a guest on, but the
Suez Crisis was. Really.
The first time that the office of the Prime Minister had been
shown to be fallible. And it and it really, I suppose,
was the first cracks in the deference that the public held
towards the establishment and the elites, the governing
classes. And.
Mulligan and Laurie Stevens went and missed the opportunity to
give the establishment a kicking over it.
Exactly. And then, of course, you know, a
few years later you'd have the chat, Lady Chesley Trial and.
Yeah, right. But thank you.
Think in fact Sue is probably very much accelerated the whole
decline in the idea of Empire. Yes.
I said the British. Really.
At the time, they thought they had the rights to basically rule
North Africa. And after all the efforts of
Spike and Harry in the desert, and a story I came across the
other day while I was delving deep into Encyclopedia Guenicus,
Wallace Green, Wallace Greenslade played a part in the
North Africa campaign where. Was that?
It was was Operation Torch, I think was the original and
allied landings in North Africa. It's about Algeria, Morocco.
At the start of the campaign, Wallace was in the in the Navy
at the time, the voluntary reserve, and he was part of
these landings and his ships sunk from under them.
So the story goes, it's just that.
I'm always pleased to find out little things about Greenslade.
And that was one came from, you know who Derek Drouer was?
Derek who? Drouer.
DROWER. No, he was actually A and he was
a BBC announcer. He actually did three.
He was the announcer in three shows in series one.
He was, yeah, if you, if you dig deep.
But he, he didn't stay unannounced that he had
ambitions to move into management, which he did.
But he was a close friend of Wal Greenslade and to the extent
that Mrs. Greenslade was godmother to his daughter and
such and that's it was from him that this story about the the
sinking came. Oh, and I'm deeply embarrassed
now because I should have at least been aware of the name.
Yeah, I had seen the name because I had taken loads of
data and put it into pages on the Gsps website with, you know,
limited details of every show and such.
So I'd seen the name, it was in there, but.
It was only and I was looking for something else the other day
I came across that OK, OK, I was thinking about the trying to
think of what other strongly politically satire, good shoes
that are where I thought of the Tuscan salami scandal with.
With the the Burgeson McLean. Burgeson McLean.
And and the head of MI5 being depicted as Henry Krunder is
most confused. I'm trying to think who the head
of MI5 was at the time. Was it Roger?
Was it Roger Hollis I? Can't remember but that that was
the other one that that struck me as as pure political.
Well, not pure political satire, but.
I'm really taking part shorts at the establishment.
Yes. OK.
Well Duncan, listen thank you so much for for joining me today to
talk about this very rarely discussed Goon show.
But you know what a sort of history behind it, history in
the making as it was being recorded and it's, it's
certainly one that I would recommend to to people who
haven't listened to it. It's got some great sequences
Blue Bottle Neckles is. The, the standout and of course
you have to listen to it, of course for the glorious
Yukipakouin national anthem. So Duncan, thank you again and
all the best. And we'll talk again sometime
soon, Yeah. Pleasure to pile up.
It's a pleasure.