Ravelli, take a letter, gentlemen.
Question Mark. You want that in the letter.
No, Put in an envelope. Flywheel is a lawyer, an
attorney in the States who runs a rather shabby and rundown
office with his secretary, Miss Dimple.
And in our pilot show, a young Italian turns up called Emmanuel
Ravelli. That's all, Ravelli.
Now read me what you have. Honourable Charles, the Vasis,
Legel Caravasis, Legel, Vasis, Legel and McCormick.
You left out of Vasis Legel, the main one too.
Thought you could slip one over on me, didn't you?
Eh. Flywheel's a real ambulance
chaser of an attorney. He has all the seediness that
was a hallmark of Groucho's. The greatest part, one of the
things you've got to do is to convince the listeners that you
are Groucho Marx and you are Chico.
Can you do that? Well, I think we may come across
more as the Dali sisters. But we'll do our best.
We're taking money under false pretenses.
We're taking money under any pretenses.
Hello and welcome to Goonpot. My name is Tyler Adams and this
is the show in which some guests and I look back at classic
comedy with the goons as the starting point.
Now pretty much every episode with either covered something
directly goon related, had one of the goons in it, or which was
influenced in some way by the goons for which read Milligan
usually. But today we're turning that on
its head. I think most people, sort of
people who know about these things, agree that a primary
influence, probably the primary influence on Spike Milligan and
something which echoes throughout the Goon Show, is the
Marx Brothers. It feels like every other week
me or a guest makes a comment along the lines of that's pure
Groucho or something like that when discussing either a goon
show or or something that Spike was later involved with.
And as he entered his twilight years, Spike was quite
forthright in his opinions on modern comedy.
He had no time for the alternative or mainstream comedy
content being broadcast in the 80s, nineties and he was doing
what we today would consider the unthinkable, railing against
Rick Male and Blackadder and and the like.
But there was one major exception to this.
There was one comedy program on the BBC which escaped his fury.
He enjoyed it so much he somehow managed to turn up as a guest in
it twice. And that program was Flywheel
Shyster and Flywheel, first broadcast on BBC Radio 4 in 1990
and which ran for three series. Now you could say that nothing
quite like Flywheel, Shyster and Flywheel had been heard on
British radio before. Brash, exuberant, winking at the
audience with performers you really could believe might have
earned their spurs appearing in vaudeville.
And it was largely based on material produced 6 decades
earlier, adapted and updated with the foot firmly on the gas.
So this week I'm delighted to welcome three of the principal
people behind the BBC Flywheel series, and we're going to talk
about how it came about, particular memories of making
the show and what sort of impact it had on them and their career.
And yes, we will be talking about Spike's involvement too.
So without further ado, I'm very fortunate to be joined by
Michael Roberts, Frank Lazarus and Dirk Mags.
Hi. Hello.
So before we kick off and and
look at the, if you like the the beginnings of Flywheel, Shyster
and Flywheel. I just want to go around the
table metaphorically and ask each of you about your history
with the Marx Brothers and how they shaped your lives.
Quite significantly, I guess is the obvious short answer to
that. But Michael, let's start with
you. So you played Groucho Marx
playing Waldorf T flywheel and it was a remarkable performance,
perfectly capturing the Groucho voice, the the energy, the the,
the delivery. And I'm sorry for making that
sound really clinical, but I'm guessing that's an act you've
probably done all your life, Is it?
Kind of. My dad used and my dad had a
moustache not a not a grease pain one and he used to lope
round the living room doing Groucho impressions and I grew
up in Tottenham and there were 20 cinemas then in the 50s and
he was, he was always taking me whenever they did reissues.
And there was a cinema called the Vogue Continental which was
actually part of the classic chain in Dalston.
And I don't know why, but they they they showed all the
Paramount, the early Paramount ones.
So I got to see those about the age of eight or nine, you know,
not on TV but actually in the cinema.
And so I, I and I was always doing impersonations and voices
and things as a kid because I was such a show off and I did a
lot. I used to do with Groucho
impressions, but I never thought I'd be playing Groucho.
And then when I became an actor, my agents rang me and said
they're auditioning for this show In Scotland, Little company
called Borderline are doing a show for the Edinburgh Fringe
and then the tour of Scotland, and they're looking for someone
to play Groucho. So I went along to it and I was
the last person to be seen that day.
And the director, Morag Fullerton and the the lady who
was the choreographer, they were sitting chatting and Morag was
saying, well, let let's go and have a drink.
And I thought, oh, well, they're off now because it's the last
thing of the day and they and they said you're coming, aren't
you? And I said, oh, am I?
She said, well, you got the park.
So that was how I got it. And what had happened was that
the Dick and Frank were wanted to rework a day in Hollywood, so
that wasn't available. But the company were doing a
little Scots review called Lassie Phone Home and then a
night in the Ukraine, which was the Marx Brothers musical as the
second-half of the show. So that's that's that's what
happened. And that's how I did that.
That was in 83. Oh my God.
And in 88, please correct me if I'm wrong about this, Frank, but
by then, you and Dick had just had reworked day in Hollywood to
how you wanted it to be. So borderline, We're going to do
that again. And I got asked to do Groucho
again. So this time we're able to do
the whole show. And then after that, that was
two years later, I got a phone call from my agents saying
they're doing a pilot for a Marx Brothers radio series.
Are you interested in playing Groucho?
And I said, yeah, when, When does the director want to meet
me? And it was No, no, you've got
the part. I find assistant you are
Ravelli. I send you out the select
medical instruments and you pick a saxophone.
Hey, you crazy boss. You know, pick a saxophone, you
pick a mandolin. I prefer to wait for the
intellectual ones, you know, I see Ravelli.
Something tells me this little incident is going to end in
violence. Violence.
Sure. I got one of those, too.
I. Didn't know Jack Benny was here.
Ravelli. I'm going to raise your salary.
As a fine boss. It's nothing at all.
I'm only raising your pace, so you'll feel worse when I fire
you. So Frank, what about you in
terms of exposure to the Marx Brothers?
Well, unlike Michael, I didn't grow up with the Marx Brothers.
But I did grow up with The Goon Show because I grew up in a
little seaside resort that was a suburb of Cape Town, South
Africa, and it was still a British colony.
And so the South African Broadcasting Corporation
imported British comedy shows including The Goon Show.
And I think I must have seen one or two Marx Brothers movies at
the time, but not really related very much to them because I
didn't understand what they were doing.
The anti establishment kind of humour which I only got to
understand much much later on when I could appreciate the
contrast between high society in America and the immigrants who
had come from all over the place, including the Marxists
and how they were. Their humour was based on
sticking it to the establishment, who was very
often represented by the great grand Dame Margaret DuMont.
And of course, once I got involved in the Marx Brothers
world, I I loved all that and related to it instantly.
My involvement is really quite complicated.
I heard that Dick Vosborough, an American comedy writer living in
London, was going to be doing a Marx Brothers show and was
looking for an actor who could play the piano, who could play
the part of Chico Marx. I have been doing the Eric Satie
show and the choreographer had a girlfriend whom I hadn't met but
had seen me in the show and she knew Dick and so she recommended
me. I got in touch with Dick and
that led instantly to he's asking me to play the part of
Chico. And I said, well, I do think you
should audition me, just in case.
But I secretly felt I was perfect for the whole thing.
And I discovered we both lived in Islington.
I said, well, I have a piano, why don't you come over?
And he said, I set aside today to find a Groucho and a composer
for the show. I said, oh, I see, OK, I put the
phone down. I let 10 or 20 seconds go by.
And I dialed him again. And I said, so have you found
the composer yet? And he said, oh, well, no, I why
do you ask? I said, well, I write songs.
You see music and lyrics. I don't want to poach on some
other composer's territory, but I'll play you some of my songs
when you come over this afternoon to audition me.
And I did, and we're keeping this short.
That led to Dick's dropping off a script of this concoction of
his, which he called A Night in the Ukraine, based on a Wanak
play by Chekhov or The Bear. And I knew the Bear, of course.
I thought it was a brilliant idea and all the jokes were in
the style of the Marx Brothers, but they were all original.
And that became a proper Wanak musical with five songs.
I couldn't do much about Chico as a performer, but at that
point Dick then gave me a tape of Marx Brothers songs, and I
went all around London every time there was a Marx Brothers
movie and watched Chico intently to see what he was doing on the
piano. And I would go home and practice
it. Dick handed the script of this
one up musical to an agent and small time producer to do as a
lunchtime show that the agent joined forces with a woman
called Buddy Dalton and they took a lease on a theatre up at
New End in Hampstead which used to be a morgue and they wanted
to make their first production, which would be a full scale
evening thing. Our show and Dick and I phoned
each other in a panic. We only have one act, what are
we going to do? And Dick came up with this
brilliant idea of using all the actors who would be playing Marx
Brothers characters in Act Two and out of Ukraine to
impersonate Hollywood characters in AT 1, which he decided, in
the spirit of the titles of Marx Brothers movies, to call it a
day in Hollywood as opposed to, say, a day of the races.
So the show became a day in Hollywood, a night in the
Ukraine, a double feature. I imagined that the Marx
Brothers were leaning over my shoulder and being as difficult
as they could. B that it might really kind of
stretch me. And so I wrote this, this
strange show, which is an original Marx Brothers show.
I imagined that that it was maybe made in 1936, because that
was that was the year when they didn't make a picture.
In 35 they made Night of the Opera, In 37 they made Day at
the Races. A Night in the Ukraine is what
they did in 1936, so now it can be told.
So this is the missing link. It is Harper was the missing
link, actually. We wrote all sorts of new songs,
along with classic songs from the era for a day in Hollywood,
and we now have this show which from the word go, was the most
phenomenal success in this tiny theatre, which I think seated
about 70 people. It was so successful that it
transferred to the Mayfair Theatre in the West End, so it
went from New End to West End. And then I noticed a little item
in the Evening Standard saying that there was a producer from
Broadway who was in town looking for properties to take back to
New York. So I said to Dick, look, we've
got to go down and grab hold of him at this Savoy Hotel, which
we concluded is where he must be staying.
We went down, and I left a note for him.
And the next morning, my phone rang at the ungodly hour about
8:30. Hello, this is Alexander H
Cohen. I'd love to come and see your
show. Can I come tonight?
And can I bring Peter Cook and Dudley Moore?
Well, they came. The show was a riot, and Alex
Cohen said call me Alex, I love your show and I want to do it on
Broadway. And it was like a moment out of
the kind of things we were almost satirizing in a day in
Hollywood. And from then on, we were geared
to going to America and having the show down there.
But I was the only actor who would be in the show playing the
equivalent of Chico, because at times I'd be playing my own
music on the piano. And so I wouldn't be depriving
an American actor of a job because it was my own music.
But the other actors were not given permission to come over.
So I had the full Broadway experience, and actually one of
our numbers was called during the production code, which Dick
and I designed as a version of the Hollywood censorship Hays
code. But done as a tap dance by the
whole company. And so I was part of that.
And because I actually could tap dance, I actually can claim to
having tap danced on Broadway. No approval shall be given to
the following words or phrases. Alley, cat applied to a woman.
Tomcat applied to a man. Broad applied to a woman.
Tart. Applied to a woman.
Tart apply to a woman. Chippy apply to a woman.
Madam apply to prostitution. Goose.
In a vulgar sense, you can't say in your hat.
You can't say hold your hat. You can't say nuts.
You can't say nuts except when. Needy.
Grady. I've been in every single
incarnation of Jane Hollywood, united in Ukraine and even just
a knight in Ukraine on its own, when Dirk much later, produced
and directed a wonderful version for radio four of a knight in
Ukraine, using all the actors who had been in flywheel,
shyster and flywheel. So that brings us full circle, I
hope. Can I can I just say, Frank, I
was worried you were going to be reticent.
And also, and also listeners who are used to you as Ravelli in in
the Flywheel series. They'll be surprised to hear
you've got such a refined speaking voice.
Well, I should add to that, that in New York, a lot of
celebrities used to come backstage, including Dick
Cavett. And as a result, the Groucho of
New York, who was David Garrison and I appeared on the Dick
Cavett Show performing the first meeting scene between Groucho
and Chico. And we did it in full costume
and make up. And I didn't expect Dick Cavett.
Then to turn up and interview us, which he did.
So I then was speaking in this frightfully British accent, and
you could hear the audience give a little gasp and a sort of a
titter at the contrast between what I've just been doing, this
Chico and this unlikely accent that I was actually talking to.
Did you? Did you in fact, they'll go to
the films over and over and over?
Or did you have the image in your head to begin with?
When did you? When I.
Knew that I was going to play Chico, which was back in London.
I went to see about 8 Marx Brothers movies in a row to see
how he played and get the character and all that kind of
thing, and I just went to different cinemas all around at
2:00 in the morning and things like that, just to see what it
was like to get the character. You had seen them before, of
course. I mean, I had, but I didn't have
an. Enormous memory of them, really.
You weren't a Marks Brothers freak?
Not particularly. I've since become one, I think.
Yeah. OK, so Derek, let's bring, let's
bring you in Dirk. So obviously you know the as the
man who directed the the BBC Flywheel adaptation and you kind
of marshalled the madness. Were the Marx Brothers a big
thing for you before the series came along, or or not?
Yeah, very much so. I grew up in the 60s where
Sunday afternoons on BBC where the only one BBC channel when
had a they called Film Matinee. And they were always classic
black and white films from Hollywood.
So you'd get your Errol Flynn's and your Betty Davis's and what
have you. And of course, you'd have the
Marx Brothers. And I think, you know, I was
probably 8 or 9 and just fell in love with him.
You know, like most children, Harpo was my gateway drug.
And then of course, you know, as I grew older I began to
appreciate the word play and the and the the hidden messages.
You know, as Frank was saying, sticking it to the man, all of
that. So by the time when I was about
15 or 16 in the early 70s at school, Monty Python was on and
we were incredibly motivated by Python And we used to make
films. We all those historical films
that Python would do, we went out with this with this with an
8 mil camera and we did a 20 minute epic about the Vikings
invading comedy I should add and we filmed that all my S downs in
Sussex with everybody dressed up in hand me downs and old
curtains and dustbin lids for Shields and things wooden
swords. But and we were trying to think
of follow-ups and one of the follow-ups we were going to do
was going to be a Marx Brothers film And somewhere I still have
the the attempt to the script we began but of course some O and A
levels as they were then got in the way.
So I mean, obviously I was also very much into the Goon Show,
but in in picture terms, the Marx Brothers were, you know,
equally important to me. And yeah, so obviously, yeah,
when the chance came to actually do something, jumped in with
both feet. So Flywheel, Shyster and
Flywheel was a series from the early 1930s for radio.
Yes, yes, it was it. It was a radio series and at the
time the recordings were lost, although in fact you know there
there some, quite a few have been found if not all.
And it was it was Nat Peron and Arthur Sheikman who were The Who
were the named writers of the show that went out in 1932.
And the thing had been thought lost.
And then a a a writer called Michael Barson found them in in
the Library of Congress in New York, found the scripts which
had lapsed into out of copyright, and he published them
in the late 80s. I think they were published in
the States before they came out over here.
But it was it. There was an article, there was
an item on the Today programme on BBC with the news programme
about it, and Mark Brisenden, the writer who adapted the
scripts. And I sort of, you know, kind of
caught it almost at the same time.
And it was, it was a no brainer for us to take it to our bosses
in BBC Radio Light Entertainment.
I was producing there and Mark was on one of the writers in the
in the writers room and he'd all we'd already done stuff
together. We'd done a thing called Death
Rides the Airwaves, which was a kind of pastiche Cryptkeeper
thing, which we did on a programme on Radio 2 called
Peter Dixon's Nightcap, which was a lot of wonderfully fun
pastiche Hollywood stuff. So, you know, we were both
interested in that stuff and we both, you know, loved that sense
of humour and we were commissioned to, you know, to to
make a pilot. And yeah, that was, that was the
the genesis of Flywheel was being given a pilot and then it
was a case of finding the cast. And all I could think of doing
because Hollywood, I'd seen Hollywood.
Ukraine, when I was a student, was to contact Dick Vosborough,
who'd I I'd already been in touch with because I was also
doing DC Comics Superman stuff on the radio at that point.
And Dick Vosborough was one of the, as a child, as a boy, went
to the studio where they were broadcasting the original
Superman radio series in the 1940s.
So we'd already sort of struck up a friendship so that the the
Marx Brothers thing from a completely different angle.
The first person I would ring is Dick, because no one knew more
about, you know, how to put the Marx Brothers back on stage than
Dick. And through Dick, of course, I
got the recommendations for Frank and and for Michael who
had played Groucho in Edinburgh only, you know a short time
before and and and that's, that was how sort of the team got
together. There's a man.
Out here wants to talk to you about a job.
Tell him I'll take it, but I won't work for less than $20 a
week. No, he wants a job here.
Oh. He wants a job.
Oh, I think I can put him to work.
Oh, I don't want to work. I just want a job.
How about? How about references?
Ah, that's all right. You don't need no references.
I like your face. And I like your face.
If it is a face, say you look exactly like a fellow I used to
know by the name of Emmanuel Ravelli.
Are you his brother? I am Emmanuel Ravelli.
You're Emmanuel Ravelli. I'm Emmanuel Ravelli.
No wonder you look like him, but I still insist there's a
resemblance. He thinks I look alike.
Well, if you do, it's a tough break for both of you.
Hey, we know speak about money. That suits me fine.
If you promise not to say anything about it, I won't
mention it either all. Right, but I got to have more
money. I'll tell you what I'll do.
I'll give you $6 a week and you can bring your own lunches.
Well, I don't know. I'll go even further than that.
I'll give you $6 a week and you can bring lunch for me too.
Oh. God, I can't live on $6 a week.
You can't live on $6 a week. That'll make me very happy
you're hired. You weren't just adapting the
scripts as it were verbatim, you would filleting bits from
different scripts. Is that what?
Yeah, that was Mark, You know, Mark, very skillfully the, the,
the problem was that we had a 28 1/2 minute slot to fill and the
original scripts were written to fill an American half hour slot,
which would have about 5 to 8 minutes worth of commercials in
it and promotional announcements.
So the original scripts even if they could just be used straight
off and and they did need massaging and and Mark did
skillfully do that but also they needed extending.
And So what he did was was to cannibalize scripts which were
you know sort of textually a bit less cohesive or plot wise a bit
less cohesive and and very skillfully then graft into core
scripts that were were strong with strong plots, sequences and
so on. And he also, you know wrote some
original stuff. He's himself.
We there were a couple of episodes.
There was a one setter in a Chicago newspaper and there was
another Christmas one, which were pretty much all marks but
the of the original scripts of the three series of 18 shows, 16
of them were these sort of composite scripts which which
worked very well for for the pilot.
We had a conversation about what to do because I thought we
should play it safe. I was desperate we should get a
series. So we actually went for a script
which was the, in essence, the Animal Crackers script, the
stolen painting, the stolen Rembrandt sort of story which
was familiar to people. And it it seemed to me that if
that flew in an audience situation, then anything else we
did would, you know, stand a chance of being heard.
So Mark adapted that one and what I wanted to do, and this is
where Michael and Frank were, were great.
They were kind of wonderfully accomplices to this.
I wanted to put on an actual show, so I got David Thurman as
our musical director. David I was working with on the
news headlines where he was pianist to assemble a 14 piece
band, which is was pretty unheard of at the time, let
alone now. So we had a 14 piece band on
stage and we also were all dressed the the the band and I
and and anyone on stage was dressed up in in tuxedos in
evening clothes and Michael and Frank were actually in costume
and make up as as Groucho and Chico or as Flywheel and Ravelli
and that worked very well and and in fact it worked so well
that down the line we didn't have a Harpo because there was
no Harpo written into a radio show because there was no
obviously no. Audio medium radio, isn't it?
Yes, bit of that, bit of that. However, then we started
dressing our sound effects studio manager who did live
effects on stage in the in the in the trench coat and the top
hat and the wig. So we did have a Harpo on stage
and as my wife always would say she would come to the show.
She said it was the best 3 evenings entertainment ever in
London because you've got a full Marx Brothers show and also the
only radio show I think the BBC had with a wardrobe and make up
department. Michael, you know, listening
back to the shows, a lot of the time there's knowing nods to the
audience. There's a lot of Ed libbing,
there's a lot of breaking the 4th wall.
There's there's a lot of dropping in contemporary
references and acknowledging that it's a radio show that
you're appearing in. Was that encouraged or was that
something that you, you know, was that something that you
introduced or was that something that you encouraged, Dirk or or
how did that come about? I I no, it was Dirk.
It's Dirk. I'm not putting the blame on
Dirk, but Dirk. Dirk encouraged me to do that.
And he said, look, Groucho would have done that and he said just
do it. If they don't work, I'll take
them out. And that's what happened.
And and so when See, Spike was one of my gods because I grew up
with. I was doing impersonations as a
kid, but of course I did all the goons, you know, I was listening
to them first time round, you've got to remember that.
So I was doing all of them. Then it'd be before my voice
broke. I was doing them and there was
much better for Mini Banister. Blue bottle and.
I I got, I got worried when I knew Spike was going to be in it
because I thought, well, maybe I can't, he won't like it if I had
Lib. And because Derka told me how
much he wanted, he'd always wanted to work with Groucho.
He never got a chance. And I thought, well, if he was
working with Groucho he would have expected Groucho to ad Lib.
And then I'm sitting there the night before thinking I wish
there was some way I could make reference to Spike in the script
without it being totally out of period or anything.
And then please correct me if I'm wrong, but I I'm under the
impression that they've got the name of the goons from the
Popeye cartoon Goon Island. Is that right?
Yeah, and my dad used to tell me the stories of films when he
wasn't taking me to the cinema, which he did all the time.
He was always telling me the stories of the films he'd seen
as a kid that he loved and if they have one, liners in good,
good jokes. And he saw this film called
Whispering Ghosts which was a a fox attempt to emulate the
success of the two Bob Hopes, you know The Cat in the Canary
and Ghost Breakers. And they were trying to make a
star, unsuccessfully at the time of Milton Bow.
So they made this film called Whispering Ghosts and he loved a
line from it where he was going along and there was this sort of
incredibly ugly Crone at the end of this corridor.
And Milton Bell said, well if it isn't little blue creep in a
Rallis blue goon. And I thought, wouldn't it be
great if I can work that in because it's in period and I get
gooning. Of course I didn't tell Spike so
Spike not being physically very well was sitting on a a very
high stall for for his lines. And I, I, I I started to come in
with that. And of course Spike, not knowing
I was going to do that, cut me off that I thought, oh that was
that's a shame. Oh, never mind.
Carry on. There was.
I don't know why. There was a quiet point and I
felt this hand tugging at my sleeve and when I it was Spike
and he said I killed your Milton Bowl.
I killed your Milton bowl. So at least I was so chuffed.
I'm shame I didn't get it out. But the point is he knew it
straight away. So I was very pleased about
that. Can I just say something about
Michael's ad libs, which is that it became clear on the pilot
recording, you know that that Mike and Frank at times would be
minded to do something in the moment because of the way the
show was going. And and Mike came up with
something and the audience just fell about and it was so Groucho
esque. It was quite clear that, you
know, he was really in the zone during the recording.
And I think that was the point at which afterwards, you know
when we knew we had a series and we talked about it, I said to
Michael, look if you if you think you've got a good one and
to Frank if you think you've got a good one, go for it.
And they did And and the thing I, I, I said to Mark was
concerned about that, but I said look The thing is we can't you
know already you know these have been adapted these you know we
these are not the shows as originally broadcast.
It's not 1932 and we we don't want it sort of preserved.
I I I actually thought of Spike's head Under that Dome on
that album cover when I said it. This is.
Milligan preserved, yeah. Yeah, Milligan preserved.
You know this is not, it's not in aspect, it's not pickled it's
it's got to be alive. It's got to be happening now.
And and the thing was also Michael was so good at it and
the one that I always tell I I always quote this when we're
talking about Flywheel was the one where flywheel and Ravelli
it's the one about farm relief. It's the one that won us a a
prize actually New York Festival's medal and and
flywheel and Ravelli are jump over a a fence on a farm and end
up in a pigsty and in order to to pay this you know pay this
off in sound. I got the rest of the cast,
which was the late Vincent Marzello, bless him, Lorelai
King, who played all the ladies, and Graham Hodley, who were our
sort of core team, who we should talk about a little bit more,
came round and also the orchestra joined in and they
jump into the pigsty and everybody comes around the mic
go. I asked you folks two nice
Jewish boys, and we're surrounded by Ham.
It worked because of course, you know the vision with all the
actors moving in saying they were surrounded by ham and it
just it just, yeah, the whole the Paris studio where we
recorded these. So sadly, no longer.
BBC Studio just erupted and afterwards and Michael, I I I'm
certain this is true but correct me if I'm wrong.
You had forgotten you did it and I and I said to you afterwards
that that that ham joke. What ham joke?
He said and then I explained it to him and and I think that was
the thing about Michael. It was almost like a sort of
Petit Mal kind of thing for Michael.
He he he was so channelling that he absolutely forgotten he'd
done it. He he was so in the zone and it
was uncanny because Bruce Frank on Mike sounded exactly like
Chico. It really was, you know,
astonishing and and physically too, boys, when you put the
stuff on, the grease paint and the wigs and what have you, you
know, it was a wonderful thing. The one, the one.
The one I remember from listening to it in the In the
night in the early 90s, there's AI think it's the department
store episode. Yeah.
And I think Ravelli is talking about something being a close
shave, hey? Wash, wash.
Why is it Ravelli? Oh boy, what a close shave.
A. Close shave What?
Happened nothing. I just used the very sharp
razor. And now he's bought the company.
That won't go in. It's out of period.
Yeah, evidently it did. Maybe it was a slow week.
Just remember that's stuck in my head for some reason.
Yes. Yeah. 20 years, yes.
Yeah. Yeah, of course it wouldn't.
It would go for nothing now because nobody remembers the ads
at all. No.
That is funny. I I was.
It's interesting what you say about, you said about, you know,
the show's got to be live, it's got to be happening now, it's
got to be vibrant, I suppose. And with a friend of mine, we
were listening to a couple of fragments of the original
Flywheel series from, you know, the 30s.
My friend who's a, who's a huge fan of of the show of of your
show, he, he was pointing out the sort of the, I suppose you'd
call it, the atmospheric differences between the original
Flywheel series and your version.
Now obviously factor in the age of the original series and the
recording quality of the time and all that sort of thing, but
it's it's true you know the original series with Groucho
Marx and Chico, it was more sedate and the audience sounded
like it was you know, situated about half a mile from the
performers. And I know it was 1932 and all
radio was probably like that then.
But you guys hadn't heard at that point, you hadn't heard the
original Flywheel series because it they only discovered the
episodes four or five years after the end of your series.
So. So you you were kind of, I guess
you were kind of just you were having to sort of imagine what
the original series would have been like.
Obviously you had the scripts to go by, but the 90s adaptations,
they just they they were performed with a lot more oomph
and gusto, projecting to the gods almost, if you like.
And so, Dirk, was that just your your trademark style or or were
you trying desperately to imagine what the original series
sounded like? Actually, I did.
Somebody had found an acetate, just a bit of one, about about 5
minutes worth, which I was sent on cassettes.
So I had heard some and it sounded what it sounded like to
me was that Groucho and Chico were in there were turning up
and doing the script in order to get the paycheck.
They weren't there for the in any way for the for the joy of
of performing the roles for them.
It was. It was a way to make a fast and
easy buck, which over the years in in working in this sound
medium, I found certain people do think that it's actually easy
to come in and and do it until they actually have to.
And then they realise how hard it is and how hard Mike and
Michael and Frank worked, you know, in the original.
So I I I thought it was lacking in energy.
I thought it was lacking in motivation.
And interestingly, when after we'd done a series, I think Nat
Perrin, who was in his 90s by then got his, you know, had
heard it. And he was very, very
complimentary about how it sounded.
Not just how the boys sounded and the work that Mark had done
on the scripts, but the fact that it just he felt that it
actually it sounded better than in the originals.
And Mark went to see him and and I believe that Nat said that to
him. And you know that's a that's a
hell of a compliment from someone who was in the business
at a time when it was as cutthroat as it could be and
work with the Marx Brothers who were very demanding to work for.
So I don't mind at all if we are sort of if we still stand up
against the originals because we put more energy and love into it
than the original Marx Brothers did.
Because I think it's almost inevitable that we would,
because for us it was a it was homage and and we weren't there
to earn the money. In fact, there wasn't much money
to be earned. I certainly don't see any repeat
fees and I know what's there for Mark and and Michael and Frank
isn't much. But what we did have was the I
will never, ever forget walking down to the Paris studio on a
Sunday to record 2 flywheel Shire strip flywheels.
I felt the luckiest person in the world.
The only thing that would have been the only comparable things
we're doing, the news headlines with Roy June and Chris on a
Thursday, which I was doing at the same time, and if I'd ever
been lucky enough to do a goon show, those are the only times I
can say we have been equal to it.
At some stage, by the way, I also met Nat Heron, who I know
loved Flywheel. Churchill Flywheel.
But on the first night in New York of a day in Hollywood,
announced in Ukraine, just before the curtain went up, they
told me that Chico's daughter Maxine was in the audience.
Well, I never painted and shunk and I went on for my entrance in
a day in Hollywood. We were all dressed as ushers in
the lobby of Brahman's Chinese Theatre and wearing white
gloves. And I caught my finger in the
revolving door, which was supposed to lead from the
interior of the cinema into the lobby.
And we were performing in the lobby, so to speak.
That was a set. And I caught my finger in the
door and there was blood on my finger.
And as soon as I'd done my little bit of introductory
singing, I went over to the piano and sat down and instantly
smeared blood all over the keys of the piano and had to be sort
of mopped up and given new gloves once I came off.
But at the end of the show I was in my dressing room, still in my
costume and make up. And I I heard a cough at the
door and I looked up and there was a a short woman with black
hair and sort of bangs, a kind of a fringe and cat's eye
glasses and a walking stick. And she said Daddy, and it was
Maxine. And we became really close
friends after that. And I used to see her offering
in New York and go to parties at her place.
Absolutely lovely. And every time I went back to
New York, I would always visit her.
Eventually she died. So in a way, I had a lot of
confidence in being Chico when I joined Flywheel, Shatra and
Flywheel. But here's the thing.
In those shows and the wonderful Paris Studio, they had all these
classic pictures along the walls, including scenes and
actors from things like Take It From Here.
And all those shows always used to have a song somewhere in the
middle, and it was logical for our show to add a song in the
middle. And there were lots of Groucho
songs, but I felt that Chico would be underserved by simply
doing a Chico piano solo, which would mean mean nothing to a
listening audience. It might have meant something to
the live audience we had in the studio.
So I suggested that instead of my doing a Chico piano solo, I
do Chico song every week alternating with Groucho's.
So one week Groucho would do one of the well known ones and I
would do a song that is the kind of song Chico might have done.
And the very first one was a number from the Coconuts.
And it was a number that a caller number called the Monkey
Doodle Doo. Yes, written by the great Irving
Berlin. Let me take you by the hand over
to the Jungle Band. If you're too old for dancing,
get yourself a monkey gland and then let's.
Go my little. Diary.
Here's the. And I suggested that as an
obvious Chico solo. And then I always used to,
although Mark came up with wonderful extra puns and things
for Chicko because of Dick's knowledge of the Marx Brothers
and his brilliance at comedy writing and his expertise, I
always used to take the scripts when I got them to Dick and we'd
go through them together to see if there's anything we could do.
And Dick and I had a great time trying to look for songs that
would be the kind of quirky things that Chico might have
sung. One of them was My Brother Makes
the Noises for All the Talkies, which would, you know, isn't
obvious. It wasn't a Marx Brothers song,
but it was a useful one as a kind of reference to Harpo.
So that was the kind of thing we did.
And the doing of the songs in the middle with Michael one week
and me the next. And wonderful arrangements, by
the way, by David Furman, added to the sort of live atmosphere.
And so Dirk's desire to keep the whole thing very much alive and
not have the feeling of just Groucho and Chico turning up and
almost phoning in their performances, this all helped
and added to that immediacy that the show had.
And and just to add for the my brother makes the noises for the
talkies. Because of sound effects, SM was
dressed as Harper. Of course that you know that
added to the, you know the cohesive nature of what we were
doing on stage. Yes.
Did you guys, I want to ask you about the supporting cast?
But did did you guys Michael and Frank, did you offer other
voices, other characters? No.
No, we didn't need to. We had these wonderful people,
Laurel. I was just brilliant.
Vince was marvellous, doing several voices and Holdley,
Graham, Graham who? Played Mr. Gruber, the tailor
and the landlord. Yeah, Mr. Girl.
He was doing a sort of impression of single room and
with the Marx Brothers character and Graham was absolutely
brilliant. No, he's doing home and Bing.
Herman Bing. Very specific.
It was very specific who Graham was doing because Graham's so
into old movies. Well, that was you.
All were. That was the beauty of.
Herman Bing. That he was.
Doing I was working with Lorelei I I met her we we this was when
we did the Superman. The very first DC thing I did
was Superman on trial and at that time I wasn't directing I
was only writing it and Lorelei was cast as Lana Lang and and
was very good in the role and and I really liked her for the
role of Lois Lane I I I you know the the the person who's playing
Lois in that was was great but but just I loved Lorelei had
this sort of sassiness and a lovely actor the late Bob
sessions who went on to play Batman in the Batmans that I did
he introduced me to her and it became clear she was a Swiss
army knife of voices And you know as well as being sort of a
kind of having a a certain a unique sort of warm sort of
presence and and a very attractive girl you know she
kind of when we were thinking of flywheel and and obviously Miss
Dimple is the first voice every time and flywheel shies your
flywheel Miss Dimple speaking Law Offices a flywheel shies to
him Flywheel Miss Dimple speaking.
It was a no brainer to get Lorelai in and I I was pretty
sure she could do any female roles.
But when we did the, the first pilot, we did the pilot there,
there was the, you know, the, the, the Margaret DuMont
character in it. And I asked her, I, I, I did
have conversations on the phone, I think with all three of you,
you know, before we got into it. And I said, you know, can you do
Margaret DuMont? And she immediately just went
into DuMont. Oh, good morning, Mr. Flywheel.
Why? What in the world are you
looking for? I lost my horse.
He he slipped right out from between me.
I thought, well, if she can do Dizzy Miss, I know she can do
Lois Lane and Lana Lang and all that in DC.
If she can do DuMont, if she can do Miss Dimple and we don't need
anyone else really, I mean she can be all the women which was
great because then it freed up enough budget for me to get
other people in and and so our core team were were Lorelai,
Vince who was kind of like the you know kind of the the
straight man in everything which we needed.
We needed Vince to be the sort of Zeppo who could just handle
the rather dry stuff but that needed handling and occasionally
you know he could he got a line in or he could play the dog Foo
Foo in the dog finding the dog. He was a pretty good dog,
actually. Fantastic.
And Graham, who I went to college with Graham, we were at
King Alfred's College, Winchester, training his
teachers as drama students and and we were sharing a flat in
South London when I first joined the BBC.
This was years later. I mean we we weren't sharing a
flat anymore. But I knew how how good Graham
was and how much he loved this sort of stuff.
I'll take 10% off every ticket's old until he gets paid off.
So we had our, you know, Mike, Frank, we had Lorelei, Vince and
Graham as our core team. And in the early series we
wouldn't get in guest artistes William Hawkins, Bill Hawkins,
who was Paul Kins in Star Wars and one of the CIA guys in the
first Indiana Jones film, Top man, Mr. Jones, top man.
That's Bill and and and Garrick Hagan was in the election one he
played the he played the the sort of election official in in
the judge flyweight what we had Kerry Shale who's yes superb
voice artist and who still working with today on the
Sandman as I am with Michael you know we were getting guest stars
in to it. Can I come in with a very quick
anecdote? Yeah.
Yeah, it's it's sort of circular
really. It's it's almost going back to
talking about doing ad libs. But a couple of days ago, when
we were recording Graham Garden's play and we're all all
the actors are in the studio and Kerry is away from us in a booth
behind us because he's doing the narrator.
He was also playing this old guy who was having his scrotum
operated on without anaesthetic. So we're sitting there, we're
all sitting in a row and Dirk saying, OK, Kerry, give me some
screams. So you got about four minutes of
Kerry doing these amazing screams.
Nobody screams like Kerry. And there was then complete
silence and and I, I don't know why all I suddenly said and your
modern piece and the whole place went about because it's all
actors so they know they know that phrase.
Yes. And it's like say just just,
it's timing, it's timing. Oh God, yes.
And one of the beauties of all this is, of course, is that we
all still work together. And I mean, you know, 'cause
Frank and Michael worked on a voyage.
Oh yeah, some years later this was Stephen Baxter thing.
And and you know, we were all doing that and and and Michael,
Frank, Frank, you've had issues with your throat.
So, you know, sadly. We don't.
I'd still be working. I wish I.
Yeah, I I wish you were too, 'cause, you know can't.
Manipulate my voice the way I or to be able to as an actor, As a
performer. Frank, I'm guessing you can't do
Chico anymore or is that is that difficult for you?
Hey, you know, hey boss, Hey, I can always.
I can give it a try, but I'm out of a practice and I can't do it
the full justice. A justice in the court would
decide against me. Yeah, well, it was, you know,
you were doing fairly gymnastic exercises on your larynx when
you did it, frankly, because you're speaking your natural
speaking voice. Even before you were I'll was,
was, was, was, you know, a good what's the word.
So it's like a couple of semi tones away from from Chico.
Yes, easily. Yeah, but but no, I mean you
know this was these were friendships for life that we
made on that show in in most cases and it it really was a
joy. He's talking about the discovery
of long lost Marx Brothers radio scripts in London last night.
Those comedy classics were performed for the first time in
decades. CN NS Peter Humi.
Reports. It's terribly serious.
It's so serious, if I don't got to laugh, I'll kill myself.
Well, there was never the danger that he wouldn't get a laugh.
The Full House packed the BBC Theatre to witness the historic
occasion, the first performance in almost 60 years of long lost
Marx Brothers radio scripts. I'll give you $6 a week and you
can bring your own lunches. I'll go even further than that.
I'll give you $6 a week and you can bring lunch for me too.
They're written by genuine original Marx Brothers writers
who've written for Duck Soup and various of their movies, and you
can actually see some of the routines they're in this series
landing up later in Marks Fellows New Days.
Well, I don't know about that now.
What's the matter? I don't like it.
The 2nd party either. Well, you should have come to
the place Party. We didn't get home around 4:00
in the morning. I was blind for three days.
And and and I'm going to throw a quick anecdote in here Tyler,
because I was quite a new producer at this time and this
was quite a big deal because we had coverage on television on
the on on BBC Breakfast and and on, on other channels.
And even I think CBC Canadian Television came over and did a
bit of coverage. There's still stuff on YouTube
about us doing flywheel and I did CNN I think it was came over
and they had a camera crew that came in and in those days the
those were those sort of shoulder mounted cameras about
the size of a, you know four house bricks taped together
probably about the same weight. And there's and there's there's
a guy with the camera and there's a guy with a boom mic
you know with a curly cable up to the camera which had the tape
and and so on. And they came in to the Paris as
we were rehearsing and immediately the band stopped
playing and and one of the lads in the band not not David the MD
but the the MU Rep in the band came down and said Dirk we're
not being paid to to play on envision so for as long as that
microphone is attached to that camera we're not picking up the
instruments and and it was fair enough.
It's totally fair enough. The contract did not call for
them to play Envision and it would, you know, that's a
different fee and a different arrangement and so on.
So we had to disconnect the mic and lay it on the front row of
seats where the band could see it while the filming was was
done. Mute.
So the band went back to playing.
And it was one of those times where, you know, when you're
you're you're you're you're doing the job where you suddenly
learn where you're you know, where the limits are to what you
are allowed to do. It was it It impressed me, you
know mightily really that you know kind of like these things
do apply and because these guys are working musicians and they
should be paid for what they do. I I totally got it.
Absolutely. Yeah.
That was that was an interesting moment.
OK. So let's let's talk about Spike.
Am I right in thinking, Dirk, that it was it was during
because you you interviewed Spike at length for the 1991 At
last to go on show. Yeah.
Radio documentary. Yeah.
Was it off the back of that meeting that you got Spike
involved with Flywheel? Yeah, it I actually first met
Spike. I mean I was a Goon Show fan
since the second I heard the Goon show and then actually
Telegoons got me in. I was only you know 678 or
whatever it was because you know it was funny and and so and then
of course I discovered the actual shows and then off you go
and then I've been working Radio 2.
Before I got into light entertainment.
My carefully planned route in included making trails for Radio
2 presentation. And while I was there we were
doing children in need and then children in need.
We would go around and find celebs who happened to be in the
building, grab them get them to record something or the other
and then leave. Let them go in peace.
And Spike was in. And so I I wrote a suggested
little script and went down. I think he was doing Laurie
Hannaford or something like this.
And, you know, cautiously I approached him and said would
you, would you mind, you know, for children?
And he not at all, not at all. And he did this thing.
Hello this is Spike Melegnor, the famous typing error.
He is another typing error. Children and needs to the
copyright. Children needs to know now
properly Type that should read Spike Milligan and Children in
Need. All this has nothing to do with
the BB CS annual charity appeal. Children in Need starting at
7:00 PM on Thursday the 20th of November.
Make no mistake, we need to raise as much as we can for the
kids in Britain who deserve a decent break.
Who is that? Brighton.
This has nothing to do with the BB CS Annual charity appeal
Children in Need. What's that mean?
I don't understand what it means.
It was because actually it was chickens in the eating that one.
Oh, come and do it again, Rita. Yes.
Oh I oh, I thought this had been a typing error and I read it as
children. Well, it nearly.
Worked all right, right? So, you know, I I kind of bumped
into him. And then of course, because I
then became a comedy producer on BBC Radio, he was occasionally
in the corridor, the comedy corridor as they called it.
So I would say hello and so on and so forth.
And then for the 40th anniversary of the Goon Show,
the chance came to do a documentary about the Goon Show.
And so I teamed up with Ted Kendall, who listeners will know
has been the key to the restoring a lot of the old Goon
shows to their original, you know, condition in terms.
Of genius. Genius.
He is a genius. He is Ted Kendall, genius, a man
about town and a man about town where where the police are
hunting him and they and I teamed up with Michael Poynton,
the lovely Michael Poynton no longer with us fabulous
trombonists, trombonists, researcher and all round good
guy. And so it it was the team of
three of us really, Ted, you know giving us the benefit of
all his his recordings and so on of of goon show ephemera and
apocrypha. That really was interesting
stuff. You know a rehearsal for the
great Tuscan salami scandal or whatever it is.
And I got in touch with Spike and we went down and Michael
Poynton and I drove to Rye to interview him for this
documentary. The whole thing was very
memorable. We got there and did that the
the Dumb Woman's lane. The house was down carpenters
Meadow dumb woman's lane. And the house itself had a had a
had a had had the sign on it. The blind architect.
Yeah. And Sheila answered the door.
Spike's last wife. And got.
We went in and does and Spike, you know, he's very friendly,
very jolly, you know, really at absolute on his best form.
And so where do you want me? So I sat him in an armchair.
I said, well, where do you normally sit?
Oh, well, this is my use of my chair.
Right. Sit down here.
And I put a mic right up against him, you know, a 4038.
Sorry, not a 4038. An SM58 on a stand right up in
his face. Had a little dat recorder with
me. They just come in.
This is 91 and roll tape and then we talked for.
I can't remember the exact duration, but you will know
Tyler, because I sent you the tape.
Well, you you. The recording was just over an
hour and then Spike excuses himself to go to the lavatory
and then it ends. But I gather that you had
another cup of tea. Yeah, Oh yes.
We definitely had another cup of tea and I think we even had a
glass of wine, But the thing was that Spike said afterwards he'd
never spoken so much about the Goon Show, which was very
interesting and pretty much everything he said that was of
any interest. We got in I I cut into the the
documentary because it was solid gold.
So it was a memorable day and Spike was being absolutely
lovely. You know he could be prickly and
I I I knew that you know there was always a risk he would he
would decide that he wanted to climb up or he'd had enough.
But we got him fined. I think the fact he knew that I
utterly adored him helped probably and and so we talked
about the Goon Show and you know that was a a lovely
conversation. I'm sure we will have this
conversation about what was in that interview another time but
at the end of the interview he said something on the lines of
you know what, what you're doing in that flywheel shastra,
flywheel show. It's just wonderful.
I I just, you know, it's so captures the spirit of it and so
on. It fool me completely.
They're so like the original voices.
I was stunned at the duplicity of them.
And he said I'd give my right arm to have worked with the Marx
Brothers, something like that. And I said, well, you don't have
to give any any limbs at all. Why don't you come and join us
on the show? Come and be a guest on the show
and there was you know some discussion and and I said look
you know what, let's, let's I thought, right.
I'm going to follow this up because it would be so fantastic
to have Spike on the show. And then I went on to I then
hastily went on to seeing if he'd considered doing the same
about the Goon shows, but actually with him and Harry and
and Mike Bentine, who was still around.
Which is which is which is another story I I won't tell you
no. Well, no, you, you've told me
that. My, my cast, Peter.
Yes, yes, my cast, Peter. Yeah, yes, that spooked me
enormously so. But we did get in touch.
We got in touch with Norma fans and we booked Spike to do the
show and Mark found a couple of scripts that really, you know,
had parts that that would work for him.
The the mayor of the the one with the the ghost of Craxton
Manor where he plays, the mayor where's the flywheel and all
that stuff and the other one who was the in the other one.
He was a judge in it was the the Fly by Wheel tours.
Fly by wheel tours. That was it.
Yes. And and he came to the Paris
with Pauline Scudamore who at the time was his biographer and
a sort of a man nuances and he came and he was on pretty good
form. He was a bit prickly.
Poor Lorelai. When we went in to do the tech
run, pointed out he'd left his mobile phone in the narrator's
cube that call it the Paris and and Spike sort of snapped her
head off for being for you know, telling him something that was
perfectly bleeding obvious or something like that.
It was that was a bit unnecessary and I thought, OK
he's probably nervous and poor Lorelai was a bit upset.
So you know that that was not a great moment.
However, when we got in the room and did the tech run before the
audience came in, it became clear that he was thoroughly
enjoying himself. And and I was thinking, gosh,
you know, I wonder how how long it is since he actually did
something in the Paris, you know, because of course the
goons did record in the Paris from time to time and then the
audience came in and Spike was, you know, we wheeled him out
from the wings. We didn't.
He walked out on his own steam. I'm being, I'm not being fair at
all. He he walked out and he was, he
was very chipper by this point to his to his mic, which had a,
you know, a stall nearby in case he wanted to perch and the show
went gangbusters. Actually, he, you know, he
thrown in. He was thoroughly in his
element. Come back, Rebelli.
Oh, there you are. I thought you'd run out on me.
Come back in here and shut the door After you Say that sheet
makes you look tall. You roam, Rebelli, haven't you?
Well, speak. Speak, man.
Say something to me. Oh, to me.
To me, you fool. Flywheel.
Say something to me. Would you mind doing that again?
Well, I put this little boot creep in her Alice Blue goon.
That was a Milton Berle line, and it didn't get a laugh when
he did it. I am dead.
Well, that's what you get for not taking care of yourself
running around in this drafty house with nothing but a thin
sheet over you. I am the spirit of Roderick
Craigston. Say all.
Craigston must have died laughing.
Why we Your doom is sealed. You're all about to join our
ancestors. Oh no, you're not going to get
me in the poor house. What was the?
I don't know unless it was a mortgage falling dude.
I go to see who dares disturb the tranquility of my ghostly
sphere. If you are not gone with the
time of return, you will still be here and dead.
I tell you the one thing that he did, he was very he was very
good with the script, you know, he was very faithful to it.
But there was one moment he, he added one word to a line and it
became a goon line. And his line was take your
filthy hand off my arm. And when Spike did it, he went,
Take your filthy hand off my dirty arm and it became a goon
love. Well, that's that is, that is a
line from a goon show. Yeah, I think my reality says
that in a goon show. Steaming Take your filthy hand
off my filthy neck. Say he was quoting himself.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can I just say that apropos of
the Lorelei story with Mike with Spike, I was beside myself with
excitement that I was going to be meeting Spike Milligan, who
was a huge hero of mine and I went over to him and said hello
Spike, how are you? And he said, what do you want?
What do you want? Go away.
Leave me alone, I thought. Lord, OK, so I I made some
pleasantry and he said again, leave me alone.
No, no. And that was my sole actual
conversation with Spike Mulligan.
Really. Yeah, he was very, very paranoid
and having, I think, having mental problems.
I think he was nervous. I think he was nervous about
doing the show. Frank and I think he calmed down
once we got on stage and run it. I think he he he was feeling
less on display and more like he was part of an ensemble.
Yeah. That I think.
Also, I think around this time he was always complaining he
couldn't get work. Yeah.
So his confidence, I think, was knocked by that.
Very much so. In fact.
I, I whenever I saw him, I'd say, hello Spike, how are you?
And he'd say unemployed. Yeah, that that was definitely a
thing. Yeah.
Interesting. Yeah.
I'm sorry that happened though, Frank, because, you know,
genuinely you were greeting him as as enthusiastically as as any
of us were, really. I mean, it was just great to
have in this, yeah. You know, at school when I was
growing up, we absolutely loved The Goon Show and we're
imitating Echoes and Blue Bottle and Major Blood Knock and all
those characters. So that was a little brief blow.
But you know, too bad. That's life as it is, as it goes
on. I've not.
I've not been able to verify this actually, but someone told
me that in the book of the scripts for the original
flywheel series, there's a line and I don't know whether it
ended up in the. In your series, there's a line
where somebody asked, I think Groucho asked Chico for the
time, and Chico says I got the correct time.
This morning I wrote it down on this piece of paper.
Oh my. Good.
Wow. And that was from, what, 1933?
I'm just wondering if because obviously that that is that line
will resonate with Goon Show fans.
I'm just wondering. Whether, whether don't recall.
I mean, Mark might remember that, but I don't, I don't
recall seeing that having read through, but that would
certainly stick out the mile, wouldn't it?
Yeah. Now correct me if I'm wrong,
Ravelli, but I thought I sent you over to the Western Union
office to find out the correct time.
Oh, I find out the time this morning.
Here I put it down on this piece of paper.
Let's face it, I mean, you know, Spike was blazingly original,
but you know, he he wasn't above using good material from
whatever source. I mean look at, you know how,
how, how does a lady with wooden leg change a pound note?
Well that that was a Christmas cracker joke in 1910, you know,
So yeah, definitely would would be that.
But, but in the end, we were the last people to work with Spike
Milligan at the Paris Studio in ABBC radio comedy show with a
live band, which is a pretty neat, you know, sort of bucket
list item to have, I think. Absolutely.
Now, Frank, I asked you
yesterday because we had, we had a little initial chat yesterday
and I asked Frank if he remembered appearing on
television in the Noel Edmonds program in in character as Chico
and Frank, you didn't remember that, but Michael, you were on
that as well. Do you remember that?
He wasn't very happy with me. OK.
Noel Edmonds One of the things you realise when you go on these
people shows, if you just watch them on TV and you get it's like
with Michael Parkinson. What you don't realise is until
you get to meet them is the egos that they have.
And they don't actually like you to be funny because it's their
show. And I I said something like.
Oh, what was it? It was a joke.
I made a joke about it. Ended up talking about
Christmas, so and so. Or Hanukkah rice and he he, he
his face. I remember that.
It was like, well, excuse me, you've got me on the show
supposedly to be like a Groucho and I've chucked a joke at you
and but you didn't make it. I've never forgotten that.
Yeah. No, I'm.
I would do I do remember something to go all the way up
there for that? Yeah.
No, hang on. No, no.
Edmund's humorless killing my leg.
We did a few TV's because we went to Pebble Mill, didn't we?
You did we? The usual thing was there was a
piano, so Frank would do sugar in the morning and then you'd do
the you know. That first scene.
That first scene together and because because they came to the
Paris and did it there. That's the one that's on YouTube
and Dick was speaking and I was speaking.
You were doing the things and then you were being interviewed
while you were making up for the show.
That was that was a good one actually.
That was BBC Breakfast I think and then there was Pebble Mill
at one with the lovely Sue Cook and and we did that whole thing
and we had a chat and they got Nat honing in or they'd phoned
him and we're playing him back. You know him talking about how
much he'd enjoyed what he'd heard.
It was it was there was a lot of interest in in US doing the show
and it was quite funny really because you know while all this
is all this Hoo ha's going on I'm just bricking it hoping we
can get it right and we did sounds OK and and it but but it
did it sounded fantastic and and you know I've got to this is
good opportunity for me to say I think Michael and Frank you know
are are the biggest reason that those shows are still being
played back they got it so right you know Mike Mark did a great
job on the scripts and and and you know of composing it all
together and the band were great with David but in the end it was
Mike and Frank getting on the mics that that actually
inhabiting those personas that made it really take flight and
and you know God bless you guys you were fantastic.
Can I just say, thank you, Dirk. And you know, it's irresistible
playing those characters and with that material you almost
felt that you couldn't go wrong. But Dirk, it was you who
actually provided the right kind of atmosphere for us to give the
kind of performances we gave, and that was tremendously
important. I've learned from an early age,
from a very early on in this business, I learned that this
the the best, the best directors I've ever seen at work are the
ones who get out of the way of the actors, and it was a
pleasure to get out of your way I.
Always wondered why you're wearing running shoes.
Hey. Hey boss, look at all these
machines. This must be a Penny Arcade.
Wait a minute, Ravelli. It's better than that.
This is a what? The Fuller Brush Man Saw
machine. This ought to be good.
Give me a penny, Ravelli. Oh.
Boss, you don't want to watch that of.
Course I do. Give me the penny.
Hey, this is hot stuff. Ravelli the housewife.
Just come back in with the shopping.
My, it's a warm day. I must get out of these clothes
and into something cooler. There she goes.
Ravelli. Nye.
This guy is tied. Come on, Bosch, I think we
better get out of here. That crowd might find us no.
No, the full of brush man's arrived.
He sees her, but he's no oil painting.
This one. And those clothes, that short
jacket and the ridiculous pointed hat?
She's taking her bonnet off. Last of all, Miss Temple.
But that meant Ravelli. Bosch I can explain.
I was a young I needed the money.
Rebelle, You'll need major surgery by the time I'm through
with you. You listen to those shows and
they were done with such warmth and energy and enthusiasm and
the main thing was that Frank and I, because we'd done Groucho
and Chico on stage and we toured Scotland after the Edinburgh,
you know, the Fringe run and it's the only show and it's just
a tribute to Dick as well. It's the only show I've ever
done where everything worked, every house regardless.
And Scott's audiences? You know, do you know the story
about Mike and Bernie Winters? I do.
I do clean it up if you're going to if.
You're going to tell it, but I will.
I will say this. I saw.
I went to see the prequel to The Omen.
Yeah. Yeah, Bowman, it's a new film.
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Which I thought was much, much better than I expected it to be.
But they they the ending, and it ends up with the baby being
given to Gregory, you know, as a photograph with Gregory Peck
saying he's going to have the baby.
But there's a plot twist at the end that allows for a sequel and
I thought the poster should have what that guy said from the gods
which is and I will clean it up lo me.
There's two of them. Anyway it was as as frank so
right. We just had a ball on that and
it was a privilege to do it. And the fact that they're still
so they're still so loved now, it's a bit like people still
loving the goons. You know, the material's great,
the performers are doing their best and and the stuff lives on.
Absolutely. Can you get is it on BBC?
Sounds Dirk. Do you know or is it just?
Do you know I it's? Done.
It's on BBC Radio 4 Extra and I get the Radio Times every week
and I immediately go through the schedules looking at Radio 4
Extra to see if this is a week when they'll have Flywheel on
Shy Star and Frank. We were on it and they hadn't
had us for ages and you're quite peevish about it.
It's really time to bring us back.
Yes, I'm I'm just looking it up. It doesn't appear to be on BBC
Sounds at the moment, but it's time for a letter writing
campaign I feel. It's on Spotify.
It's on YouTube.
Well, that would be. Well, of course it is available
as a ABBC audio book. You know, the The Complete
series. So yes, it is absolutely still
available in those contexts, you know.
No wonder when you're not earning any money, lads, It's on
Spotify. Now available in every format,
yes. I don't get any money for this.
I'm staff, no fee because I was staff at the time.
So while Mike and Frank go to the Riviera to spend their 48 P
per 100 repeats, I live in penury in the South of England.
Dirk, have you got any final thoughts?
I just think it. I can't believe how lucky I was
to to get to actually work with, you know, the Marx Brothers.
Yeah. Were you?
Yeah. But more frank, more frank.
No, it it was, it was a it was a combination of a lot of very
talented people, all united by their love of the Marx Brothers
and along the way their love of the Goon Show.
And getting Spike aboard Flywheel was a was a kind of a a
coup and a triumph and the culmination of all our shared
passions for comedy, including Spikes.
And the fact that people still love it is a testament to what a
wonderful thing something is. When it's made with love, how
much you know it, it then generates its own momentum and
positivity. So for that I'm very grateful.
Yeah, and I'm I'm, I'm very grateful too because it came
relatively late on in my life and career and it's was an
absolute landmark adventure doing the series.
And I will be 85 on the 4th of May, which is quite soon.
So it's a landmark birthday, and I have such incredible
adventures and marvellous things to look back on.
And Flywheel, Shyster and Flywheel is one of them.
While I'm at May the 4th, I'll just add that that happens to be
the very date that Alice went down the rabbit hole, because
it's was also the birthday of Alice Lidl, whom Lewis Carroll
wrote Alice's Adventures in Wonderland.
And so I have that distinction, and I feel that Flywheel,
Shyster and Flywheel adds to the fact that I have to live up to
the distinction of having a birthday on the day the Janice
went down the rabbit hole. And and and how wonderful that
you chase a white rabbit on that day every year since Every day.
Yes, yes, which is Michael dressed up.
But don't tell Frank. Hey, I'm late for a very
important day. Say goodbye.
Hello. I'm late.
I'm late.
Thank you very Calana. What a perfect no to end on.
Gentlemen, it has been a privilege.
Thank you so much for giving up your afternoon to speak to me
and and all the very best. Thank you, Tyler.
Thank you Tyler and wonderful. See you guys again.
Thank you very much for coming along and being with us tonight.
You've been smashing. I hope you've enjoyed it as much
as we have. Please will you send all good
vibrations towards controller Radio thought that he's going to
buy these shows or radio two or anybody anywhere.
LBC Hello. So folks, we hope very much
you'll be able to come and enjoy some more.
Thank you very much to all of you.
And thanks to Mark Brisbane and Harry Thompson, all the people
who've made it happen. And thanks to the band.
Thanks to you. Have a safe journey home.
God bless you. Good night.
Thank you.