Hello and welcome to game pot this week.
My guest is the voice actor, comedian and radio restore Keith
Wickham, Keith. And I talked about his long and
affectionate relationship with the Goon show.
And with radio comedy in general, and about a newly
discovered Hancock episode featuring Peter Sellers who
stood in at the last minute, for Kenneth Williams, Keith has been
making a documentary to accompany the broadcast of this
Hancock show on Radio 4 and we talked about that and his many
years work. Breathing new life into hundreds
of old classic Radio comedy shows through loving restoration
work. So I hope you enjoy the
conversation. So Keith, thank you for joining
me. Pleasure of course among other
things. You you're very very
accomplished and very busy voice artist and performer as just
looking at your IMDb page. Yes do you ever actually have a
holiday huh? Yes I do.
It's good it's got its workers. Got thinner recently for lots of
reasons but Thomas and Friends future.
I'd had it for years and that finished for me.
They changed the format. But I did that for 12 years, I
was the fat controller and Gordon and Henry and Edward and
all kinds of things for that. That was a great gig.
I'm still in the Octonauts, which is going strong and other
than that, yes, I've just done loads of other cartoons, mostly
cartoons. Mmm.
But no. I mean, at the moment, it's
okay. But nothing, like it was in The
Glory Days of the 90s and the early 2000s when I was Every
day, all day. Yeah, yeah.
Ii-i've got two teenage kids. Yeah.
Who I saw as you can imagine late, naughts.
I was sat often with them in front of us.
CBeebies and Thomas particularly a, but also 64 Zoo Lane.
Oh yes. Oh, I love that show.
I love that show. I was no, some, the elephant and
various others and yeah, they'll know.
I love that show. I don't know with you watched
Angelina. Lorena.
The secret. Showed remember that because
that was one of my favs The Secret Show.
Yes. Just about the Angelina
Ballerina, my daughter. Yeah, she used to have that on
DVD copies of episodes of that. Yeah, right.
Well there's my credentials. Okay.
This so but I mean I'd we're going to talk about that in more
detail in terms of how you got into doing that sort of thing.
But one of the other sort of strings to your bow is the
restoration of old radio. Yes.
Which is pretty much the which is mid the more the And I'm
here, really, I suppose, because yes, I started out because I
used to listen to the radio for a lot when I was a kid, and I
used to go and see radio shows, being recorded, a lot of Paris.
Hmm. And so, I went to burkas way and
just a minute and I'm sorry, I haven't a clue and the news
headlines and stuff a lot. And I used to dream of being on
the stage and doing, doing all that stuff, which is why I do
this. It's why I do my job and why I
do this audio restoration. And just recently, I managed to
meet a producer who was interested in it, and we've got
a program going out and Radio 4 on the 13th about restoring
audio and stuff. Because I have spent an awful
lot of time and money on collecting restoring and
disseminating radio old radio and they started out with the
goons great, which is why You asked me on this, I think yes
because I got in touch with tech Kendall in about the year 2000.
I think when he was starting out on his escapades of being
commissioned to do all that and I started to do it as well
separately and and we sort of in parallel in restoring the stuff.
So I helped him, gave him stuff, sent him stuff.
And obviously he did the work and he's got much.
Much more expensive kit than me and was being paid to do it.
But it was, we were both doing that.
And, and on the site under my thing was, I did I'm sorry.
I read that again. I restored all of those complete
that took 10 years and that was a great idea.
Was a real journey that one ended up meeting, Humphrey
Berkeley and getting it, is getting his scripts.
And his tapes for through a guy called a French in my must give
him a credit because he was the one that got me in touch.
Touch and and I had that, that was an extraordinary thing to do
that. Because all of that now is done
and I've done hundreds of other shows, but for extra and BBC
seven as it was. So a lot of stuff that they
broadcast, I've restored and sent them.
So this is my other thing, my other sideline.
Hmm. But these have been mainly sort
of labors of Love really? Yes, totally.
Absolutely. Yes.
And it's only recently it It's become something that I can
actually sort of say anything about we'll talk about because
the documentary and a newly discovered Hancock's half hour
triggered all this because Richard Harrison is a collector,
found this Hancock and it was and it's that that's made the
BBC to sit up and take notice because obviously that's an
event, you know, once in a 20-year event, yeah to find a
missing Hancock's half hour that's worth broadcasting and
he's in good quality, you know. And it's a good one.
It's got Peter Sellers in it said yes real.
See, I'm not, I'm not a huge Hancock fan.
So that's that sort of pass me by what are the circumstances of
the discovery of that man. Was Richard just it's in the
documentary this but he had a bachelor tapes and one day heard
it and realized it was what it was.
Basically it because he's a collector and he knows his
stuff. He just recognized it instantly
as a missing show. And it's going to go out on
radio for rather than for extra because it's such a big find
interesting. Yeah, okay and it's the marriage
bureau, by the way. It's cool.
So yeah, so the document. So if you're listening to this
podcast on the date goes out it's which is this going on the
12th of October, right? It's a 13th the day.
After this, your documentary will be on radio for what's it
called. Raiders of the Lost Ark.
I've excellent. And I feel it's been used before
that title bit, but yes. And so it's basically a journey
through the the process of finding collecting restoring
audio radio shows and you speak to people like Ted.
Yeah, I've spoken to. Ted Spectrum are cares.
Who is a fantastic composer sound engineer.
Does all the Doctor Who soundtracks and radio, phonic
Workshop material, talk to his Roger, bcurtin who is The sort
of father of radio. Collectors started the vintage
radio collector Circle, many years ago.
Steve Arnold who runs the radio circle now and Richard Harrison,
who discovered the Hancock, okay?
And in the meantime Liz clips of programs missing programs and
things. Oh, and we also managed to get
Lauren Laverne involved towards the handing.
Tapes and in desert island discs over to Lauren.
She, she was fantastic. So yes, it's was a quite an
adventure doing that show Mal ham gateway to the South.
I think you told me Sellers album that a teacher played for
you but my my whole career is based on an assembly at school.
Mr. Humphries he was you played a record is best of sellers.
Yes, I'm with Bal hum, gateway to the south on it and he played
this as a example of parody and how parody works.
And I think the whole assembly was about that and the thing was
for some reason, I mean my eyes, think about it talks about 12.
I couldn't take the thing, just clicked with me, it's like some
people with music, you know, we hear a piece of music and I
asked him to borrow this album, you know, it's a bit cheeky
really. When I look back on it, I never
did that. And he let me, he lent me his
album, which was a prized possession of his and original
pressing, you know, and and I taped it and took it back to
school, and I sat and listened to this thing over and over
again after, like it the nerd, I was and I was doing all the
voices and I remembered it all knew it or back to front.
Mmm. And it just got me hooked.
And, and then a another friend at school was into the goons.
And I heard the last goon show of all I can and the batter
pudding hurler because they came out on record early.
Yeah, in the 70s and we're going back now to I must have been,
this must have been seventy seven ish 78.
Eighth round about there. And from there on in, I just
that was all. I did really.
I just collected this stuff and listen to it a lot.
And then radio for you stand, ready?
For because they'd repeat the goons and Hancock and round the
horn, and round the horn in particular.
I really enjoyed when I was a kid because it's broader.
It's more accessible than the goons and the goons at the what
got me into the goons with sellers.
Wasn't it wasn't the writing initially wasn't Milligan
initially. It was sellers because I
couldn't quite believe he did all those voices.
I couldn't quite believe it was the same guy and I just the
astonishing range he had and how real they all were and every
single thing was right. He did that was not a no out
place with him. And that was what got me in
there and what I found because I was obsessed, I had like a white
heat of yeah fan Obsession. When I discovered the goons, I'm
a Maybe eight or nine years younger than you Keith, but I I
discovered them in the late 80s and, you know, tape because it
growing up in New Zealand, they played it every week National
radio station so I could very quickly a mess, a lot of
recordings and also was buying up the tapes you know the
commercial releases and just getting whatever I could this
was even before I joined the dsps and was able to access the
archive. But I was watching the
television. As for getting the sellers films
and taping them off the Telly, but I'd be watching them as a
teenager without a very, a particularly critical eye if you
like without without having their the language of Cinema.
If you like or whatever you want to call it pretentiously now
that I'm revisiting them 30 odd years later and I'm watching
sellers on film. I'm realizing now how much of a
fantastic actor. He was.
Yes he was. He was an extraordinary.
Actor. I he's one of the best we've
ever produced, I think, in terms of Comedy character actors and
he had a unique career, I think, because it was only him and
Terry Thomas, I think it came out of radio and Music Hall and
went into films and ended up as celebrities in Hollywood because
that's, that's a really unusual and weird, weird, jump to make
and sellers was the egg. Terry Thomas did very well, but
he didn't ever get to the A-list now.
That's so Heights that sellers did and sellers are over.
I think I'm right was unique in that and he could, he was Adept
at physical comedy and verbal comedy, which isn't it?
Is a rare combination because some of his being Panther
routines, you know some of the physical routines in that are
again. They're stunning, they're just
breathtaking. He's he is absolutely brilliant.
The problem I have with sellers is what the more you find out
about him as a person. The less you like him and you
wouldn't want to know the guy, you know, you wouldn't have one
have been around him, but his, his performances were Universal.
They were he made some very bad films but he was never really
bad in them. That's right.
He couldn't help be funny. There was this, he had a thing
and, and it's and the problem is it was it was because he was a
bit troubled. That his performances were so
good and I think he raises an awful lot of questions about
celebrity. How much do we demand of people
who entertain us, you know, because really he needed help,
you know? Yes, he did, you needed, see,
need to psychiatric help, but he never got it.
So he was a he was not very nice to people around him and he
accepted that and he knew that. But would his performances have
deteriorated if it had been treated?
The question and do we demand too much of these people that we
want them to be entertaining for us, but in the meantime, they're
personalized or a car crash. It's a very I've always found
him fascinating on that level and the business is full of
them. I mean Hancock is another one.
Yes, deeply troubled and self-destructive but brilliant,
absolutely. And and sellers even if it's a
cameo role in a film like yeah, the wrong box.
He turns out he's a he's got about seven minutes at.
Oh yeah. Yeah, it's a master class.
It's a masterpiece of acting. And it's beautiful.
It's it, he's just, it's hilarious and no matter how many
times you watch it. It's hilarious.
It's the best bit of the film. Actually, to be honest, it is.
It is Hancock Hancock's in that as well but he's, yes, slightly
Brahms and Liszt I think. Yeah, that was his big thing was
drink, sellers, never had that. He was lucky, he wasn't an
alcoholic. He didn't do drugs, you know, he
was in every other. Respect stable, but he's just,
he was his Psychology was just peculiar and difficult but know
how I did that, the Hancock predictor is, is a horrible one
to watch sellers. At least his second from last
film was brilliant. You know, at least right at the
end, he pulled out being there. Yeah, which is great on any
level his performance in that, but then he's a few men to,
which is terrible. It's awful film.
And I have to say on a little personal note.
One of my colleagues that I work with four years ago, Bob Seca
who's a singer and an impressionist.
He dubbed sellers last ever appearance on a film, through
Manchu was doing an Elvis. Yes, I remember.
Yes. And it's and it's Bob Seeker.
It's not sellers because sellers either couldn't do it or
wouldn't do it. Not really sure.
But he was very ill at that point and it may well have been.
He wasn't very good and When I was talking to Dirk maggs yes a
couple of months ago, he mentioned you by name.
Hmm. And and I heard it said that
your you are a fantastic impressionist in terms of Peter
Sellers, you can. Well, I see, this is what I
started out doing. It sitting on my bedroom, who,
what it means, what ington minj, and all of that stuff.
Yes. And and that sketch I got to
say, if I had a desert island discs, that would be the top of
the list, would be that sketch that particular scale.
I'll let you know. We'll let you know.
It's it's brilliant. It's years ahead of its time.
It's fantastically made George Martin.
Did It produced it. And and it's when you think it
was done on a two track machine and sellers had to do three
parts. They you hear it and you could
play it on this podcast as an example, but there's the
microphone is set in the stores of an auditorium and you hear
the actor coming on in the distance Begin, as soon as you
like base 10. Did you start as soon as you can
please we're in a hurry. We have a lot of people to see
right. I prepared didn't hear me.
Yes I prepared a short short extract from the Richard the
third Soliloquy which I do for you because if you don't mind I
would read the script. My eyes, I could not all good as
it is and I like kind of all rubric but how about I do this?
But my memory is into also what it Who was of a I do.
Remember some of it, be as quick as you can.
Would you, please? And you hear them, two of them,
did the producer I guess in the casting director, whoever
sitting talking in the auditorium as this guy's, is
this old actor clearly on his last legs and clearly desperate
for work in the background. Because you realize, I'll read
my memory isn't quite what it was.
All of that stuff and it's that, it's when they're going, do they
find them? It's that thing.
Hurry, off the clothes miles, you know, that he can't hear,
and as he's acting, They're talking about picking up some
girl. You forgotten it all now.
No, he's not here. They were just watching some
auditions and it's so realistic and it's so it's so beautifully
done. And then when it's over, I'm
sorry and they get some he's tried, you know, is that I love
all that, it was so Deft and so well-acted and beautifully
recorded, you know, it that one caught me even as a kid, I
remember hearing that. Yes, and thinking this is just,
it's so good. It was, it wasn't broad comedy.
There was no punch line, you know, he just walks off an
example, where that doesn't work, you know, the sellers
talking to Self. If I felt was the, the sketch
with the television interviewer, who's interviewing, I think it's
an MP or meant to be an MP and he didn't, he's not letting him
get a word in edgeways and it sound, it just doesn't sound
natural feel though. No, I know the one.
You mean the one where he's implying that he's gay
homosexual. Yes, yes.
Know that? I know, I know exactly.
Which one you mean? Yes, that didn't quite work.
Did it? No for some reason.
Yes. But that was even that wasn't
bad. You know, that none of them were
Appalling know it's just it just slightly didn't work.
Did it? Am I not right in thinking that
you are? In fact I hope I'm afraid I'm
not. And is it not also true that you
are lifelong member of the Communist party?
I want to say right here, my man here is you've not Ah-Ha moment.
Now you are you, are you not a prank?
I'm sorry, my dear fellow. I must tell you right away.
I'm not seeing the harp coming up for sale, you know, and never
get to heaven. That one.
Yes yes is that came up for sale?
The heart that was used in that sketch.
Okay. Was on eBay as thrown on the
floor by Jorge Martinez. Yeah I'll show you where they
were in playing a bomb load or not.
That's fantastic. Yes I used to do.
I used to sit and listen to him and sort of in all really and I
remember there's a there's a set of acetates.
That he did when he was rehearsing at home in the 40s.
Have you heard that those haven't he?
He how he had a recorder that a discounted from?
Yes, a disc cutter. That's the one.
And there's a bob monkhouse sketch on there.
They do, they do a sketch about him in a used car salesman with
Bob monkhouse. And he does an impression of Bob
monkhouse at the end, which is stunning.
It's like, you know, it just think.
How does he do this? And he had a whole sketch, you
did it. Ma, and The few other bits and
pieces and there was one where he was practicing and practicing
a voice. And the first thing he ever did
in the film was a dubbing a Alfonso bedoya.
You know, it was who was a Mexican actor.
Yeah. Yes.
The guy was it, couldn't hear. You can tell what he was saying,
so they got sellers in to dub him and he practice, you sit
there and practice this all day and it over and over and over
again. He does this Alfonso bedoya
voice and it turns up in foil by President Fred.
I've always wondered where he got that voice from Alec
careless whines. I ran away that one, right?
Yeah. And I always wondered where he
got that from and that was what it was.
It was Alfonso bedoya. He was like that and he was all,
you know, yes. And it's just nothing like
you've ever heard anything ever. There's nothing of value.
Cut off their hair to make a pillow for my feet.
I will have something for my trouble.
I have already made such a search that was only this of
value. I kept it for just such a
moment. How do you saw the Cowardly
swans? I ran away.
They're frightened of eel heiner elastin wheeler, he his voice,
his Noble speaking voice, Which is true.
He wasn't born with no. It wasn't grow up with that
particular voice. That he that yes, yes, yes.
Why will he put on this sort of? Yes, he spoke like this.
Didn't he had a sort of what? And Clive James turned it.
A newly-minted upper-class accent.
Yeah. Because he didn't want to appear
on educated. He, I think he had an eternal
fear of being found out. Yes.
And he used to put himself on the same level as Alec Guinness
and all those people because He wanted to think of himself and
other people to think of him as a classical actor, which he
wasn't. But, in many ways, he was just
as good, I think it in, you know, without he didn't have the
discipline to do theater and he didn't have the, you know, the
wherewithal to keep his own career on track, but he was as
good as those actors I think in terms of talent.
Oh yeah. And I loved his his Guinness.
You know, it's impression was Which he did on Parkinson, that
great story told in Parkinson's. It goodness doesn't we're all
professionals. Two plates of can condemned
field condemned veal. Yes you mentioned right at the
beginning that you went to watch things being recorded such as
well. Obviously not the goons but or
Hancock but just a minute. Oh yes and that was great.
Oh I love it just a minute was fabulous.
I went to see it when Kenneth Williams was still in it and
it's Clement, Freud, and Derek Nimmo and that lat.
Mmm in the late 70s and Williams didn't stop moving.
One of the things that struck me was first our small he was, and
secondly, he never stopped moving.
He was it or even a radio. The reason the audience is
laughing all the time is because he's sporting around a spider.
Yeah. And his legs are everywhere
under the desk and outside the desk and he was outraged
everything and he'd make faces at the audience.
You know, instead, be halfway through, you could be doing a
monologue or something. If it's not like this, you know,
somebody would somebody would press a button dog, how dare you
mouth at the audience and it would get a huge laugh.
I mean much more than it would have done if it just gone, you
know, whatever. But it was that thing is you
never stopped. You see, just a little went on
and on and on, you know, and he would you look at the audience,
how dare you, you know, all this stuff.
And I used to love all that and his mum used to get up.
She went Him. Yeah, Lou and so loo used to get
up on stage with him afterwards. All right.
I've listened to most of the yeah, existing recordings from
66. Yes.
And I went through a period 10
years ago, listening to the classic period.
So you Jones Williams? Yes, Freud.
And it's only when you listen to them all sort of Benja, listen
that you realize that he's got. He's got his little catchphrase.
He says the same things. Yeah.
I'm the biggest cult everyone's called, oh yes.
Comical ABS. Yes, that's right.
Yeah, I came all the way from yeah.
Once or twice special occasions. He had mentioned.
He drop into conversation. Mordy fitted with fun with a
Frankfurter. Oh yes, yes.
He hesitated didn't? Yes, he was so excited, he
couldn't remember what it was Kenneth, you have a correct
challenge. Another point and 24 seconds on,
stowaways starting. Now, most famous stowaway of all
time was more detail with fun, with a Frankfurter, for the ship
dressed as a sailor and nobody dreamed.
But underneath that, apparently rough usage with them in the
feminine form of Of new Bibles people, Tim has challenged you
leaving aside the fact that I've never heard of this character.
She surely she comes out regular in just a minute or any other
voice used to love doing when I was a kid.
My Grandpa took you know guess JP smelled, Grant buttock and
all of those Dash Clash each other thing with the yes with
the lisp and all of that got public appease mouth.
Be a, he's about yes, yes, yes. And I was in around the horn
Revisited that was another thing I did.
That was that was the broadcast that on bbc4, didn't?
Yeah. The original production of it.
Yes. And and then Robin Sebastian he
was Williams in. It got me in, he got me an
audition for the show, okay? And I ended up doing Williams
and Paddock, various points and it was so much fun.
Because I knew the sketches, it was like, a Grown up with these
things. Yes.
So I can adjust it was a joy to do and so I, you know, I ended
up doing these, you know, we will trolls of Yona, you know,
the yeah. Yes, you're beautiful.
And I know you knew and all those.
And I don't also Julian and sand easy, which I just thought it
was so much fun, and it just to have that thick get the
opportunity to actually do those sketches in front of an audience
properly was just You know, and that was got, it was a long time
ago. Now, 2004 I think.
Yeah, when you were watching just a minute being recorded.
Yeah. Because you get them pretty,
obviously. Kenneth Williams is is a
one-off. Yeah, but you get the impression
listening to it that that there's some genuine animosity
or at least you get the impression that Nimmo really
doesn't like Nicholas's. I think if probably get a bit of
Truth in that? Yes, I think so.
I think so, I met Nimmo once and Edinburgh.
I was with another comedian and we sat, we were sat at a table.
Belinda restaurant. The only one available at Derek
Nimmo is sitting there on his own and, and that the staff were
being really obsequious and because they, because he was
still quite famous and and, and I knew who he was.
But the guy I was with, didn't have no idea who this guy was
and about 10 minutes into the conversation.
This bloke said, he said, excuse me.
He said to during the recent, why the staff treating, you like
a king, you know, why they bowing and scraping?
And he said II I have no idea, no idea, and and he got on with
him really well because he wasn't being scrapie and bum
like yeah, like the others and I didn't really know how to deal
with Nemo either, because he'd been a sort of a hero.
You know, it's all grown up with his voice on the radio and in
films and things. And there was a show up at the
time about Kenneth Williams and I was talking to him about this
because he was up doing just a minute and this other guy was
Australian and and so Nimmo. And he Because he was talking
about your tools are used to do. But what was extraordinary was
sitting opposite, this man who had heard so often and he didn't
put this voice on. That was the thing.
That is how we spoke. Okay, no.
So this feels just like you know like this whole time and I was
astounded at the actually did speak like this you know?
And you got that you get through the day.
I must take you five times longer than everyone else.
Yeah. Yeah, because he was from Lucy
sure he from something like highlighted in Liverpool's I
think so I think so yes a lot of them have put on you because
they went and came up through rep.
Yes. And they had their accents taken
away from them and very briefly as well because I can't let this
go. Clue watching, clue.
Yeah. Oh that was early on that was in
the 80s early 80s and I was there.
I can remember being there and I've looked this up.
Because I've got all the recordings.
I've got ya, a whole lot. Yeah, it's the first time
Mornington Crescent was always on and the camp.
I think I was the first one or near enough.
The first would right at the beginning.
Anyway, where nobody knew what the hell it was and, you know,
and how it worked for the next game, which is the old favorite.
And a lot of people, I know, like to join him.
This one is home Mornington Crescent.
No special rules. Come into play, and this
particular, and so, We'll start now with you.
Tim brooke-taylor need some High Street.
Goose trailer. Chroma Road and he'll stand that
right. Yeah, definitely wins that game.
The audience is brilliant play. When they see it.
Just burst into spontaneous Applause and what?
Woody Rushton was a joy because he was the complete opposite of
Williams Russian didn't move. He just sat there with his hands
across his belly and just talked and he really liked Peter Cook,
just sat there and there was almost no motion at all from
him. He just sat there and did what
he did. And said, you said what he said
and he had a, I loved him. And he was, he was really funny.
The thing about clue that well Well, actually, the thing about
the goodies as well, is how, our people underestimate G, Gardens
ability as a Graeme Garden is an unsung genius.
He, he's very quiet about it. He did, he did what he did.
It's he's never stopped, working and his scripts and his script
editing skills a huge. Hmm, he's brilliant and he's
just quietly. Very, very good.
He just his everything comes out of his mouth is good.
He's funny. He's just a funny man.
And you know, you can't get away from that.
And what years and years ago when I discovered that bill,
oddie, wrote, most of the goodies, you know, along with
Graeme Garden. Because the weird thing is
everyone. I spoke to says this bill,
oddie, always was the third goody to us when we watched it
on telly. He was always the one that you
sort of because he didn't, I did there was something about him.
He did, I didn't want to be there or whatever, but he wrote
it, you know, he wrote most of it and he wrote the songs.
Hmm, you know, extraordinary, well, see I again I know that
the goodies wasn't really repeated in this country.
Hmm. Certainly the BBC goodies wasn't
done about the ITV series, But Me growing up again in New
Zealand in the 80s. It was repeated all the time.
Hmm. And so yeah, I loved it and when
I was, you know, when you're a kid at least with me and my
peers at the time Bill was the Yeah, one that we grow up again
and you think Graham and Tim. It's all about Graham and Tim.
Yes, exactly the point. Yes, they did most of it but he
wrote most of it. Hmm.
When you find that out is it's breathtaking.
I'm listening to, I'm sorry, I read that again as well.
He did all these songs. Yes, two songs a week.
You know, these are very good parodies and pastiches and every
every week, a different Arrangement and a different
song. He was really very good at it
and I do remember him being interviewed.
He's a bit annoyed. He didn't end up as Randy
Newman, you know that? Yeah, he really hear it?
Yes, he really wanted to be a comedy song writer.
That was, that was his kind of ambition, I think so.
And I believe that you can, so obviously you decided that.
Well, you got it. When you're at school, you You
were getting into radio comedy, the huge way.
Yes, spurred on by listening to Sellers and you decided that you
wanted to become or you wanted to go to drama school and not
yet become a surgeon. Yeah.
So it's surgeon was my first and
you'll notice I wanted to be a surgeon you know the guy who
does the big stuff this are you know the man who stands there
and tells everyone else what to do and does the operations?
And so, yes, I did. That was my initial thing but I
And I gave that up almost the instant.
I found out I could go on stage and do what I did and because
seven years medical training didn't appeal to me at all.
And so I ended up going to drama school.
Yeah and I did lots of comedy and stand up and stuff and ended
up becoming a voice artist and it was around turn of the
century that you began restoring these good.
Yes. Yeah.
So tell me about that. How that came about in the
process? Well, I just the thing was
because my job Is relatively well paid, but also gives me a
lot of spare time, I meant and eyes.
I was always interested in audio and always interested in the
tech. I just bought the kit.
I started to buy computers and I started to buy the stuff and sit
there. Recording it editing it
restoring it and I started to learn how to do this in about
the year 2000 and gradually. As I've gone along obviously
improved what I've got and improve the kit that I got and
improve them. You know what I can do.
And I bought a lot of tape decks students and T acts and you know
all kinds of machines that I can just run tapes off on and do
professional stuff. You know, proper and the digital
audio converters that I bought were hugely expensive.
Otherwise, there's no point, you know, you've got to do it
properly and the software as well.
You keep buying new software and you keep improving it, blah,
blah, blah, and and I Start. I did a lot of it.
I mean a lot and tape off the tape after tape and records and
stuff and it became a bit of a thing became an obsession,
really a sideline thing. And I didn't ever take anything
away from Ted because Ted was doing it properly as a job, but
certainly did enough to be able to be on the same sort of level.
Yep. But not in terms of the Hit and
I don't. All right, all I've done is
Radio comedy programs. So I just done those.
He has done tons of other stuff so he does records.
He resorted a lot of Bing Crosby material or Jazz material lot of
music and he does a lot more high-end stuff than I do it.
So he does his old acetates and 78 and whatever.
Yeah, which are far far harder. And require much, much more
complicated equipment when you're dealing with spoken word
in your dictionary. Dealing with quarter-inch, tape
and Records. It isn't quite as complicated
and a lot of the tapes are in good Nick.
Anyway. So all you're doing is putting
the bit back, you know, you're just absolutely yeah.
So where were you are messing? All this material from
collectors. Okay, you know, I mean just, you
know, they'd come in the door. Once you said you're doing it.
People just send stuff in. Yeah.
And so I just get crates of this stuff and and just run it off
and running off and running off and I run off huge.
Elections of stuff huge Collections.
And for hundreds of tapes and in, there are going to be
missing shows, you know, missing bits of shows because a lot of
the work that Ted did was putting the B back in the
transcription service versions, that transcription service had
taken out and you get them from off, are copies, mmm.
And and if you're lucky, you get good FM copies.
But generally they're not and you can hear.
You can hear it. Can't you?
When you listen to it you can hear the After tape, dropping
current the roof, you know. Yes.
But that it at least we've done it.
You know, at least it's done. You know?
When I was a kid growing up, I would I dreamed of having the
box sets of the goons that we've got.
Now, you know, where every single one has been restored and
you can any show that you want is there to listen to?
And we've even got I think it's something like 18 of the fourth
series. Now I must just while we're on
this. Some of those shows were found
by Steve Arnold and I remember he was on a doctor who site.
He saw somebody saying that these discs as a pile of acetate
discs. That his father had left him
well given him. And it is to father was a member
of a jazz club and in the 50s and he recorded not only Jazz
but he recorded off are radio stuff and he had a gun shows.
And this was again this is going back, but we went up myself and
Steve went up to this guy's house in the Midlands and we
took these discs away and when I went through them, there were
four goon shows for missing, fourth series gun shows and and
that's that was a real fine. And they weren't that bad, the
discs they were okay and they were obviously FM tape that I've
been transferred onto discs and and the other thing was for all
goes in It was a fifth series show which we only had the TS
version of transcription service.
So that added to that, and I gave these disks to Ted.
We went City, he came down to London.
Let me met him, a record, fair and gave him these discs, and
they ended up in the compendium, but it's that it over the years,
this this happens infrequently, but when it does happen, it's
fantastic, you know that you find this stuff.
It's it is like opening that cupboard Treasure Trove and
there's these Missing shows, that's amazing as well.
Yes. Yeah.
Because I stopped collecting, I sort of moved, I reached the age
of the full of state of man, at whatever.
Major would have been 20, 21, and yes, and if moved away.
So, for the best part of 25, 30 years, I kind of think things
were sort of pass me by in terms of what was going on in the Goon
world. And then when I got all the
compendiums. Hmm about two years ago.
So, yeah, and just things like all these series for shows that
up to that point, I thought, yeah, the completely missing.
Yeah, yes. Well, there goes the committee
have now inspected your passport photograph.
Oh yeah, that's a nice life. No, I did not still living in
the same place. Have these men been medical
examiner's. Findings of post-mortem trauma
is dish whoosh where he might hear you.
You mean he doesn't know what we never had the nerve to tell him
if he suddenly heard he was dead.
Well you know what? The shock might kill him.
Salinas listing to the restored shows.
There's one show in particular, that I'd always felt.
I knew it was edited. When I the the version I'd heard
was that the 27 minute version, but I'd always felt it was
really clunky edited. And it's a show that we've
covered on this podcast, previously, called the string of
robberies. Yes.
Okay. And to my ear, there's a good
two or three really clunky, edit points, that show.
And when I listened to the compendium version, I was
thinking Great idea of the bits there.
I'd be dropped out, cut out. Yeah.
But you find to your dismay that?
No, that's how it went out broadcast, they've gone.
Yeah. Say yeah.
Every now and then, Ted would come across a master tape, he
which had everything on it because transcription service
often have their own copy of the master, which had everything And
if you were lucky, the edits would be kept at the end, which
a lot of them were. That's how I did.
A lot of the, I'm sorry that agains.
So you put the bits the bits back.
The other thing was that every now and then you would get
somebody's take. They took home, you know.
So a producer or an engineer or take them out.
Bernie Andrews was a big one for this.
He supplied most of the Beatles at the BBC tapes.
Okay. And he was an engineer on the
From the eighth series and he used to take a lot of stuff home
with him, and he had a lot of goon stuff and it and I tracked
him down and are over after about 10 years or so.
Eventually the eighth series goon show set was coming out and
eventually we got the tapes and and they cut, they came out on
that show. And there was a lot of extra
material on those, because he'd kept the whole thing.
NG and it also kept a press called and rehearsals and stuff
which weren't available anywhere else.
I say, we're really behind time. I took them afib and I must say
I did enjoy it. What really behind time?
We weren't even. We weren't really behind time
going to write it in. I say we weren't really behind
time. I tell them a fib and I must say
I did enjoy it and that kind of thing is gold dust to people.
I mean it's like, you know, you just want to hear all of this
stuff as much as you possibly can.
And it gives you an idea of what the show would have been like to
listen to when it was recorded rather than edited.
Yeah. As you know, I was in contact
with Ted and he. Yeah, he mentioned to me.
I think it was the corner of the West.
Yes. That was one of those.
Yeah. Yes.
And the affair of the loan. Banana was another one.
Okay. And I also Gary Critter, give
him a credit who work for transcription service back in
the day. He gave me all his tapes to run
off. He had an attic full of 10 inch
wheels and gradually. I got them because he was
clearing his place out and he's moved now to Africa, but one of
the last tapes he gave me, was his unassuming gray box with
nothing. In on it, and it turned out to
be an unedited copy of the butter pudding.
Hurler it was a Down, the Line copy, right?
Yeah. And it had three and a half
minutes more in it than K. The one that goes out, the one
that everyone knows. Yeah, there's a whole routine at
the end. There's a mic fault so that you
can't hear Max geldray, which is probably not a bad thing.
He but he's, his mic isn't working and the same.
Mike was used for a phone call with henrique run.
You can't hear him and so there's it's on this fluffs and
you know, all kinds of stuff and that's a real find.
That's a proper find. This is, you know.
Yeah, just not just on that. Yeah, you mentioned Max.
I did a show again couple of weeks months ago about Molly.
Stop, Angela Morley. Oh yes.
And just as part of research, I was listening to an interview
that would be privately. Taped it was like a post
convention or write some sort of convention and Angela Morley was
speaking to taking it, Taking questions.
Yeah. He like and one of the things
and and the old memory was playing it was the late
nineties. You know one of the things she
said was that there was a goon show where Max was wasn't there
he was in Manchester okay and he had to perform down the line.
Now if you have heard I'm asking you because you know you With
most in the, in these game shows, are many of my guests are
not as immersed if you like have you, were you aware of that or
is that something that's been, I wasn't aware of that.
No, no. It's I can't think why that
would have been made up. No, I can't.
But but I really doubt that he did it live down the line.
I would really doubt that I would have thought it would have
been a Down, the Line, recording possible, and then, and then a
playback in The Undertaker's that they've had.
The odd good show. Where one or other haven't been
available? Yes, it's just not had them.
So yes. Yeah, but geldray.
I, it's quite plausible that he wasn't there but I can't imagine
them doing it live down. A line from another Studio.
Nevertheless, maybe he did, I don't know, but I've never it
wasn't in any of the scripts. Now that you wasn't there.
What other things did you work on?
Well for extra I went through a period when they were sending me
tape after tape after tape and they would have the
transcription service people at Perry Vale run off the master
tapes and they would have all the edits on the end that have
been taken out and they would send these files to me and I put
them all back again and because I had off are copies of
everything. I could use the off-air copies
as templates. So you just run one after the
other the other and you can put them back and if there's a bit
missing because they weren't all the edits weren't there, you
could put the or Fair bit in, you know, to replace it.
So, I restored all of the brothers-in-law series, okay.
Marriage lines, yes, all the doctors series Doctrine House.
Doctor at large, right. Don't see little them and I'm
sorry, I'll read that again. They broadcast my Restorations
up to Series 5. And then stopped because they
didn't have the time or the manpower to sit and listen to
them. Because the problem with the
restoring them is you're putting stuff back which ofcom don't
like. Okay so you're putting back
quite in some cases quite horrible jokes and the BBC is
Tied by ofcom in tune you know you can't broadcast certain
things. And I know people get annoyed
about this, but my feeling is, if you're broadcasting
something, it's the face of the BBC now, and if something's
recorded well enough, it sounds like it was recorded yesterday
and you start broadcasting. Some of the jokes that are in.
Those shows it Den backfires because people will listen to
and go that how dare they there, you know?
And I know that for extra and I know that people that work there
would like to broadcast everything because they're all,
you know, as mad. This stuff is we are but you
can't, you know. But if the shows are there, if
you want the full shows, they exist.
Yep. And in particular, the goons has
been restored. They've all been restored, you
know, and I've done all the others and it's like, well,
fine, you can listen to them if you want.
But I, I don't like getting two arguments about this stuff, but
I do feel the BBC is a bit tied on this one.
And it's not really their fault, you know?
Because I'm sure they would do it if they could.
But ofcom, a very strict about this stuff and I don't, I don't
object to this because you can't keep broadcasting homophobic
stuff. And, you know, some of the jokes
in the goodies are quite breathtaking.
You know, a network have released the goodies entire you
know, uncut so you can buy the DVDs but some of the jokes are
just astonishing, you know. Yeah I noticed we've got brick
box. Yeah, I noticed that so
occasionally I'll be cooking in the kitchen over the goodies on
you know I notice there's a few shows.
Notably alternative routes. Isn't it isn't screaming?
Yes. Yeah.
The BBC the BBC. The problem is you go and I mean
I try to avoid them but you know you can't help it.
Sometimes you go on forums or social media in general and you
have tends to be and I'm going to probably lose a couple of
listings here. But you tend to be gentlemen of
a certain age, rarely it It said we're going to help it.
Hand can basically the BBC's on a hiding to nothing it.
Yes, when can it you just, you're damned if you do and
you're damned if you don't. Because on the one hand, if you
allow this stuff to go out you see I'm it's a different thing
from broadcasting stuff that's made yesterday from broadcasting
stuff that was made 60 years ago because the stuff that was made
60 years ago, is under a different umbrella, completely
and anything was broadcast in the UK back, then stayed in the
UK. But I got to I keep pointing out
to people that transcription service you sent this stuff.
Lord, May Cuts. So they were doing it back then
and it wasn't, it wasn't cool woke.
Then it was simply, if you're selling shows to Africa, you
don't put certain jokes in a show and then sell them on, you
know, there are certain things you don't say.
And they used to cut out damn and God and sort of things like
that, which harmless expletives to us, but they would cut them
out. Yeah, because they knew that the
religious community in whatever country they were sending it to
would We really offended by it so they were doing it then back
in the 60s and they did a lot of it you know they'd cut out a lot
of jokes and some of the Goon show jokes as well about Ray
Ellington, you know? Yeah.
They made fun of him and although it was all in good
humour and I know that I don't think there's any racism in, it
was just it was racist inherently but I don't think it
was malicious. But you you can't keep
maintaining this. I just feel that, you know,
you've got to be careful. But I also I don't like getting
to these arguments because it's intends to go around in circles.
Yeah, yeah. The, the kind of mindset of not
our job, maybe our parents generation or their parents
Generations. All the generations before I
asked if you like, who were listening to the radio and going
to the cinema and 30s, 40s, 50s 60s, even where everything was
disposable in the sense that they gave no thought to seeing
his hearing it again. No, he wouldn't even think about
it being preserved for, you know, to be listened to or
watched again in the future so. Well chucked, we cover this.
We cover this in the documentary because we were very weird to be
very careful about. Again the BBC is going to be
damned if it doesn't damage if it doesn't because the BBC has
always been Basically, it's Charter is to provide
entertainment and programs and news and whatever, constantly,
right? This is stream of stuff.
And it always has been what they kept couldn't.
They couldn't keep all of it, because it would take a building
size of England to do it. You know, you couldn't keep
those tapes, you couldn't keep all those records, you just
couldn't do it. So they had to select what they
kept and then reuse the tape. So it was always the case that
they were never keep it. They weren't keeping stuff and
most of it 99. As you know, 90% of their output
disappeared. Yeah.
Because you couldn't keep it and it wasn't until digital that you
could. And I think there was a decision
in 88 around about there, to keep everything, because you
could put it on a dat, we could put it on a hard drive.
And it was much easier to keep then but you know, but it's the
whole notion of people like Bernie you mentioned before that
having the foresight and the inclination even to keep.
Yes. He he realized very quickly that
so much was being ditched and there he was able to take home
7-inch reels in his Overcoat without anyone noticing, and he
had a house full of them. He had a house full of them and
they were mostly music because he worked on Saturday Club.
It was his show and a few others.
Top Gear, not not the matinee, show the the in a music show and
to. So he recorded hundreds of
bands, including the Beatles, but lots and lots of others.
And he kept these seven inch wheels of effectively, Master
take quality of these bands. And without people like that,
they're these things would have gone.
John Walters, and John Pearl is to tell stories about that, you
know, you know, they're just go in the office and so you got any
spare tape? Keep going about, you know and
they'd give them the session that they had recorded of
someone else to tape over for the next week.
He's you know. Yeah.
Because they just didn't it the BBC because it's license funded
has to justify everything. It spends in, you know, and you
can't therefore justify keeping all that tape because it was a
lot of stuff went missing because it was no need for it
anymore. Even the goons, which wasn't
commercially viable until the early 70s because the The last
goon show of all kicked up a whole new wave of people
listening to it. And they really started
releasing on record but in 1970, the transcription service
archive was given an overhaul and they got rid of a ton of
stuff because they just didn't nobody was asking for it.
So, nobody was buying it. So there wasn't any use for it
and it was taken up a warehouse, so a lot of gun shows got thrown
away as along with a lot of other stuff.
Because it's simply couldn't justify the expense of keeping
this air-conditioned Warehouse going to keep this stuff which
nobody was buying anymore. Yeah, and and that's what
happened. And then when people go, oh
hang. On a minute.
There is some use in this. Let's go and get it and it
wasn't there. But you can bet that the time
somebody somewhere was having to justify keeping it, you know,
that. So there's always this done.
There's always this push-pull between the two and it's always
the, you know, the money in the end has to speak because you
can't provide constant entertainment and at the same
time, keep it all in a warehouse, It's it just doesn't
work. Well, there's that story and I
think I think you told me that Ted touched touches on it, maybe
doesn't in your documentary. Where the, he opens up this wall
cavity? Oh, yeah.
Well, that's a good story. I'll leave Ted to tell that, but
yes, there was a, you know, a wall in a studio that was padded
out with tape. And on those tapes was dick
Barton and the goons and a few other bits and pieces.
But it was a lot of stuff and that was just, you know, too
because they finished with it, you know, and I just, I have no
argument with them about this every now and then you think
they should have kept some of it, something you go.
Oh, why didn't they? Because there's a few bits and
pieces. You go.
Yeah, they like my big one is the Noel coward desert island
discs. It was the 21st anniversary of
desert island discs. They had Noel coward on
Christmas and they didn't keep it.
And you think well this is you know this is one of the biggest
stars of the 20th century. Never did radio really becomes
into a studio and does desert island discs big thing and they
ditched it and the only bit that Has left of it was on a
transcription service. Magazine unit disk says eight
minutes of it which we, which we've got, you know, I've got
that but Noel coward, you know. It's just why didn't they get?
That's one of those you think? Oh, come on.
You know, that that, Ah, that's really thoroughly.
Yeah, I had a conversation with a Steven cockroft.
Previously on this about just talk about the Beatles in the
goons in general and he was Talk about this television show in
58. We're Spike was a guest.
It was like an audience invited to come in through your
question. Yeah, ask questions of a guest
and one of the people getting up asking a question, was Stuart
Sutcliffe right later to be yes Beatles and he asked Spike to
questions, and we have no copy of it, it's gone.
No, no I do. However, have the first
appearance of jars. And with ever that was a he was
he was on any questions on the radio in the late 60s and it was
the Oxford Union. They were at and he was at he
was ahead of the Oxford Union at the time and he and his first
appearance in the radio ever. Was him asking a question on any
questions. Okay and I came across this on a
set of tapes managed to get him a copy of it to use very pleased
about but yes, very first. So we've that's made up for
Stuart Sutcliffe probably Yeah, maybe that's it.
Made up for the jump is no. Themselves back at University is
the current president of this Union and he asked, oh, and
obviously, slightly popular. And wonders, whether any of you
wish ourselves back at University, Norman's engines to
use. What was that show again?
Which took about keeping and thrashing stuff.
Yeah, be more not keeping it. What's that music?
Show? There was a series in the 70s
and it was an ITV, it was either Granada LWT, I'm not sure it was
a music. Weekly music show wasn't Aisha.
Was it lifts off with? Are you sure you lift off?
That sounds of right? And they had copies of Every
episode? Yes, tapes of every episode and
I think they are marked coupled to be trash because what
duplicates or whatever reason there was maybe three or four
that they marked out said, right?
Get rid of these the rest and the better paper.
The Post-it note was put on the wrong pile.
Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, II.
Don't know how apocryphal that is but it sounds like, it sounds
like it could have happened, you know, this stuff happens.
People don't realize how random a lot of this stuff is.
I know the, the better tape of the moon landings is disappeared
because it is it was beam to Australia and then to the rest
of the world because of where, because there was transmitting.
Yeah, that the first transmitted that could pick it up was in
Australia. They made a film about that,
didn't they? And the tape that Australians
made, which was a far better copy because it was the direct
transmission. When missing somebody lost it.
With the one that we see if Neil Armstrong getting on the moon,
is the one that was beamed somewhere else and his drops in
quality because of it. Yeah.
So it's a terrible recording but don't the Australians apparently
had that and imperfect apparently and so there's it's a
to take them here but they taped over it.
Be the bush, can ya Somethin? I don't know what it would have
been. Yeah, but one small step for a
kangaroo. That I've been told that several
times from different places. I mean, it's one of those things
that sounds like it could be true because he because so much
stuff happens that isn't plan nobody knows, you know, it just
doesn't happen. Nothing happens away, they want
plans it. So okay.
So Keith. Yeah.
So thank you for taking the time to speak to me today.
Now, Raiders of the Lost Ark. I've yeah archives.
I'm just literally, I think it's plural.
Okay. So it's on the if you listen to
Radio for 11:30 13th. And it's repeated on the 17th
and the missing Hancock. The marriage bureau is on the
18th on. Wait for testing.
Yeah. I sometimes dream of somebody
going up into the granddad's Loft.
Yeah. Adding all these old discs of
gas shows from the early 50s early 50s.
Yeah. And then I think, do I really
want that? Because I don't think a lot of
them were very good. You know, the early ones were
very good, the ones. When we did the documentary, we
asked everybody what would be your Holy Grail?
And they all said Hancock, they all said missing Hancock's
because Hancock was funny from the off from the very first
episode and also the missing ones with Terry seek Him seek
him. Yeah.
Those have been missing since
they were broadcast and somebody somewhere probably recorded them
off air but if, you know, those would be an absolute Goldmine if
they were found those The one that Richard found is good
enough, you know the one with cell, isn't it?
Hmm. But those would be fantastic.
But everyone said that see, I wasn't aware of sellers
appearing at all ever in know, he did one show because Kenneth
Williams was called to a dress rehearsal for a play in the West
End and couldn't do the recording.
It was last minute. So what the cell is doing his
sort of William 8, Voice, or what to do know, he's doing a
Yorkshire accent near the beginning and he's dug will
still drop the bottom. Okay, that boy.
This he's doing that voice during the show because it's a
marriage bureau. So one of the clients total and
it would have been I guess Williams doing either Evans, you
know? Yeah.
And that I t.i. use that voice in Thomas and friends.
As I was Lady Hatt to Topham hatt's mother, can you do?
Can you do me the fat controller please?
Oh, yes. Well yes, we who we have had a
very useful interview and A most we must make sure it goes out on
time and on schedule and don't give it a Percy because you'll
muck it up. One of my favorites was Eddie.
I used to love doing Gordon as you because he was basically
wanting to minj. He was a yes, yes, yes, yes
Gordon, yes. Who the indignity and that's
one. Yes, I still love doing that
Silas. Does that voice again when he's
Um Parkinson. Yeah.
That but that joke that lovely joke that love would you lose
your eye on the damn thing for me?
I'm sorry sir. We don't serve theatricals.
Yeah. That one, I'll keep to keep
listen, thank you again and let's maybe talk again sometime
in the future. Hopefully.
Yes, if what we've said doesn't get as band that will be really
good will be edited to another within an inch of his life.
I'll get the razor blade out. Thanks again to Keith.
Thanks for listening, all the shows.
All 75 plus of them are in the archive.
They are available from all the usual podcast Outlets.
Please go back and check those out.
Next week, I will be talking to a very significant cast member
from the in Islamic Newman plays Spike.
As I always say, please rate and review Apple podcasts or Spotify
or wherever you get the opportunity to do so spread the
word, please join. On Facebook group.
Thanks for listening. See you soon.
Bye.