That part of the only people who stuff I've sorted pursued and
tried to look because the running jumping standing still
film with her. They made, which is got Leo
mckern and people like that. We dick Lester and you know who
ended up doing Hard Day's Night. So that that sort of and the
Beatles were into the goons which is the other thing.
And there's a strand running through there because George
Martin produced Beyond The Fringe.
So there's it's interesting that you know Yellow Submarine could
be a goons record the bit in the Middle with all the noise.
Hello and welcome to Green Pod this week.
I am extremely lucky to be joined by a man who really
doesn't need an introduction. It is comedian.
Al Murray L. Join me from his hotel room in
Edinburgh. He's currently touring with the
pub landlord and he and I talked about all sorts of things,
including the goons. So I hope you enjoyed the
conversation. We've got a day off in a we come
up to Scotland, do some shows. So I've actually I've just got
clear time and I'm on a writing deadline.
So you know we anything to avoid having to write the thing.
I've got to write, right? What is this is this is this for
the show, is this something separate?
Now, I'm doing, we're doing a live spitting image stage, show
thing next year and that it's that right, and which is an
incredibly exciting project, but also really quite quite twisty.
Figuring out what we're going to do, what's going to be in it and
how you avoid the problem. Basically of we can't do the
week's news because it's basic. That's basically impossible.
Yeah, so how you do, how you do it at the Zeitgeist to show with
all the right people in. It tells a kind of tells a story
of our, of our time and all that sort of things quite quite
tricky. It's like a fable.
So, okay, you know, a journey through the modern, the modern
world with celebs of politicians and all that, and And you tell
her, you tell her but you tell us a big story.
But and then and then the inside that you do, the topical thing.
And it's but the interesting thing about it is the puppets.
But, you know, the puppets are life-size, their enormous and
you don't get the sense, the physicality on the, on the TV on
the TV's. Yeah.
You really you really, really do on a stage in the puppets are
incredibly striking so it's quite exciting to be doing
something where, you know, we can have anyone we want in it,
we can have We can we can cast anybody in it because they're
puppets. So you could select the Tom
Cruising if you want, you know, you know.
I mean, without having to having to pay for Tom Cruise, at least
at least that's the idea. I'll fantastic.
So it sounds great. So that's going to be a
logistical nightmare. I would have thought getting all
that. Yeah but I'm just writing it,
I'm writing it that that the logistical nightmare is fall
squarely into the someone else's problem.
Great. So and so your innate ability
say Dig for victory? Yes, yes.
We basically, although these shows actually, they are
actually vestigial remnants of a tour extension in 2020, that got
pulled because the pandemic. So strictly speaking, these are
these are these leagues from a very long time ago because
because everything got everything was thrown up in the
air. Yeah, so let me say Okay, so the
last 10 years, if you look back in 2012, There was still such a
unifying time, really wasn't with the Olympics and every and
then the last 10 years, there's been a lot of fragmentation has
been a lot of polarization, and yeah, and a lot going on.
And how is that affected, sort of audience, reaction and
response to Bow. Well, of landlord, for example,
this time to write about is brilliant, you know, times of
national Unity, what things really, really, really, really
interesting about them. My is we and it you got to be
careful with how you play it as a comic book but the pandemic
for instance offers a subject which everyone knows the same
fundamental things about. Yeah, in a way in a way that,
you know, brexit didn't or whatever but bricks it was
interesting about brexit was looking at was a big event and
lots of people for it. A lot of people are against it
and lots of people didn't care, and lots of people wanted
everyone to shut up about it, whatever.
But it didn't, it didn't affect us.
The way the pandemic did where we were all locked in our
houses. And Denis Norden said, have read
a bit tree of Denis Norden. What we need because I was a big
fan of his and he said something very interesting about after the
wall, you had this amazing opportunities comedian because
you took, there is stuff you could talk about.
And they'll there was no if you talked about a ration card,
everyone knew what it was. Yeah.
If you know and that you you had this very peculiar He said, you
know, obviously as time then progressed that faded, but you
had this Central experience that everyone could relate to.
And I think we've got a bit of that going on with the with the
funnily enough. For the pandemic.
Yeah, just sort of, you know, we were all locked it up with
everyone was locked in the house.
Is everyone, watch those government broadcast about how
we had to stay home everyone, you know, knows about the
vaccination, everyone knows about furlough every, you know
what I mean? Yes, it's yes, it's really
really interesting and I think that's, I think, partly what's
happening in the gun show after all, is that they're talking
about subject, everyone knows about, and that's why they're
able to be so sort of crazy about it because they're talking
about the wall. Absolutely.
We'll come to that in a minute. Yeah, Denis Norden.
What a man though. Yeah it gives.
He of correct me if I'm wrong. You know this better than me but
I'm going from memory here didn't wasn't he there at the
liberation of belsen? You know what?
I don't know him. I mean it may have been.
I mean he may have been in the he may have been in the unit
that digit and and went and because people did people did
sort of go visit. I'm not sure excellent.
That's an Second question because you know the foot
because after all the footprint of that on people, you know, is
easy is easy to sort of forget. Yes.
He did. He did.
Yeah, with Eric Sykes. Yeah.
He went there.
I've just so I've just Googled this, he Norden a company by
fellow performers, Eric Sykes and Ron Rich went to a nearby
prison camp in search of stage. Lighting Camp, turned out to be
bergen-belsen. There you go.
Wow. Hell and of course, Sykes is
another connection with the goons.
Yeah, yeah. Lord.
Bloody everyone says this about you, obviously people love
people shouldn't make mistake of confusing.
You with the character of the public, do they still do that?
These? No, not really.
Not really. And I kind of think God God
bless those that do but obviously is steeped in history
and you studied history at Oxford and yeah, I guess it's
fair. How to say the last?
Decade or more. A lot of what you've been
involved with has been related to history or particularly
second world war. Yes, you've got this podcast.
We have ways of making you talk. Yeah.
It's so is that your is the second words if it has a second
world war is your your topic, your subject?
Yes. I mean and very much because my
father was my father's absolute. It was always absolutely
fascinated by it. And, and kind of really the
military side of things because he was a soldier for bit.
And I think he was something Really fascinated by also, you
know growing up I was born in 1968 growing up in the 70s.
The second world war was sort of in British culture.
I think was was a, was a big thing.
You know, there was Action, Man, there was airfix, there was the
wrong tournament, there was a, there was a sort of peculiar
vibrant, you know, the Battle of Britain films and things are
lots and lots of free movies, really?
Which when you which, you know, when you think about it is
obviously completely understandable way of Tree
digesting something culturally, but the fact that it, it really
fascinated me. But as I've got old, obviously,
you come away from the idea that it's a sort of big adventure
with explosions and you, and you realize what a colossal, massive
event is, and doing a podcast, which I do with James Holland is
a, you know, who's he's a historian.
I'm a, I'm an Enthusiast. Yeah, the stuff I've learned
about stuff all over the world and also the realization that
really I didn't know anything very much about it.
At all, not not really. I knew some bits but didn't know
very much about it at all. It's the sort of the sheer scale
of it as an event, the sheer size of it and the fact that,
you know, what was happening in China went on longer and was as
easily as bloody as what went on in Europe.
And also stuff that we just we are not at all aware of I think
in this country and certainly not in our view of the second
world war here. Yeah, I guess the it for the
average person the average Could really only scratched the
surface. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because I grew up was born in the 70s.
I yeah, I was, I was conscious of things going on in the 80s.
Let's put it that way. Yeah.
And I can remember things like that are saying there's some
friends of mine. The death of Klaus Barbie young.
Rudolf Hess. Yeah.
They are making things manually as well.
Yes, although I sometimes wonder if I'm conflating that with
watching Boys from Brazil, not sure this is part.
Issue is, is that it's part of our part of our cultural
Hinterland but was it a piece of entertainment or a news
headline, we don't know? Yeah.
I do remember very clearly that
even in the 80s that it's cool. The rumors that Hitler was still
alive. Yeah.
Living somewhere in Argentina. It's but the further we get away
from the second world war that sort of just recedes, doesn't
it? Well, yes.
It's certainly less likely that he's still alive.
Quite so before we just couple of other quick things before we
start talking about, you know, the reason that I asked you to
come on. I'm gonna say it.
Okay because I love, I love Vanity Fair.
Okay. Obviously I appreciate that.
You were there. What are you?
The great great. Great.
Grandson of thackeray or wants three great.
Three grades. Yeah, great great.
Great yeah, okay and I want your advice on something okay.
I've read Vanity Fair about 20 odd years ago, and really
enjoyed it. And yeah, George Osborne's in it
and dogs and all sorts of its sprawling isn't lucky shot.
Fantastic. I've had pendennis downloaded on
my Kindle for about six years now.
Should I read it? That's an excellent question.
I am. I am, when I was a kid, we had a
great talk. He was very much Keeper of the
Thackery Flay. Yeah, right and, and so, I did
what any sensible childhood do? I didn't want to do it, right?
And I didn't read any Thackery for a very, very long time, just
was not interested. Yeah.
It wasn't going to be sort of canalized into it because I
didn't like Dickens. And you know what you told?
Well it's sticking to the tackle but I think the are there my
dick heads. All right, so so you know what's
in it for me. And so I have not read very much
that good kind of our sort of mulish rebellion, but also
because I've been, you know, my mother is my mother is not the
sort of, you know, unquestioning unconditional keeper of a
thackeray flamer, I think She says, read the ones that are
good at the end and it's Vanity Fair that skill, you know, don't
go and Dennis, if you don't want to the Masterpiece is the
Masterpiece and it truly is them.
I mean, I think Vanity Fair, truly is amazing book.
Yeah, absolutely. Incredible book.
Extraordinary novel. But he put, I mean, as far as I
understand it, he put all his eggs in that basket there enough
and that will never be read your into prog-rock, as well.
Yeah. Yeah.
Is what's that? I mean is that just always been
into that or did you do? Well.
It's at school. Everyone was into Punk and it
seemed, you know, because they all wanted to be different to
everyone else. But they are all into the same
thing. So Prague felt like a sort of
felt like it's a place I could carve out for myself because
he's music was tribal, you know, when we were kids.
Yeah. Yeah, it's a passion.
You share with fellow comedian. Jim Davidson of course it really
is it. Yeah.
I did not know that but it go. He's all about the Prague.
I had no idea. Anyway, I don't, of course and
Steve Davis. Yes, Steve Davis on use a big
problem. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Britain's
foremost magma fan. I think, yes, yes, yes.
He's prog-rock DJ's. Well, yeah, yeah, that's right,
yes, right? Yeah.
He's a very interesting man, right?
Who's better then? Who's the better band?
Focus or greenslade? Focus, focus.
Yes, yes. But greenslade is a link worthy
of pebble Mill because obviously greenslade is, is a name
familiar to goon show fans and sorry, I really worked on that,
really? Yes, obviously this podcast is
ostensibly about the gauge The Gunshot, what's the gun show.
But also I wanted. Have a bit broader and we're not
brought it and just so that we could cover anything about
anything that's got a goon connection.
So anyway, sounds films Milligan.
Yeah TV even Highway if goddamnit ever need to, you
know, the future. Normally a true of the signal
section sorted in here, a large set of protruding teeth.
But for this feature, he would have been ugly seeing the
luxury, we were living and he said you cut him bastards.
You know where I slept last night, Sittin Up in the bleedin
Cozy who tried to sue them with gifts of cold.
Porridge true said, he thought we were going to Scotland.
Why Scotland? Why I tell you?
They're going to make lenders in Norway is a sick of running
mate. We linked up with the Russians.
Oh, Christ scrimmaged him, no way, that's done.
It'll why I told my family. It was Malta.
What about my family? I told him Bournemouth before we
start to melt lagoons and I suppose in a way spikes War
Memoirs, I would imagine a very dear to you that.
Yes, right? Yeah, absolutely.
And I remember those big my my father was a huge Spike fan,
right? And all of this comes from my
dad. I remember them being in my
parents Lou, and when I was little, you know, you'd read the
funny caption pictures, he read the sort of Hitler.
Hitler Hitler and Goebbels, sketches or whatever, you know,
and the cartoons, and all that. And and you'd think this guy is,
this guy is really fun, it's bananas.
But it's been being transmitted to me from another planet.
As you get older, you read the books, you may be read them.
And you laugh at The Loft that because the band to sort of
Relentless and really, really funny.
And then actually as you get older, you realize what they're
about and, and they the whole thing needs to him having his
Combat fatigue breaker Italy in the, in the, you know, start
1944 and that Spike gets, as far as he does, without that happen
to him is because of the friendships, he has.
Because the Army is looking after him because chater
Jackson, wonderful officer and cares about his men because the
regiment's being run really, really sort of extraordinary
actually strangely compassionately.
She's not a thing. I think people think of a, the
Army's sort of being capable love and and then they're about
how he tries to piece itself back together after his break
there and his love affair with Italy and him grow up.
You know him being fought sort of in a strange way having to
grow up because I think one of the interesting things about
spike is that sense of childish wonder of the world & before he
joins. The Army still.
Very although he's quite old the older than the others.
If I remember rightly, he said sort of Manchild is the feeling
I get you know they're going. Child wandering wandering
through the world. Not make not really like making
sense of it living in that kind of dream world wants to be a
Trumpeter sort of doing well at that.
But them so, you know, you wonder what would have happened
to spike Milligan. Had the war not come.
Yeah. Well, I wonder that about most
of post-war British entertainment.
Yes. But they would, they have
carried on working it. Baldwin's Factory.
Yeah, yeah. Well, whatever it may be, you
know? Yeah, because because the thing
is, this thing is, is that the war is not a catalytic event,
because it, because it comes at changes.
Absolutely. Lutely everything you know and
and changes itself as it progresses you know it's not
it's not like Britain's catalyzed by the 1 million
catalyzed by the we have radically changed by it and you
do what all of those people Kenneth Williams.
You know what if we're what on Earth would have here if that?
Yeah and and the fact that the fact that I mean I think it's
again it is a really interesting thing.
The Army has got sort of the bending it to allow people like
them to gravitate to concert parties in the end, you know,
Milligan's Milligan. The care, they care.
He gets put into Because they've obviously written him off as a
soldier. They know they can't use
themselves, they getting things up, death work and stuff.
Then they realized that she would be better off having pain
places, and, and then he gravitates to the bill Hall Trio
and all that, you can see that actually in a strange way.
Although, you know, he is a bit of in that really hates the
army. They taken quite the taken
fairly good. Care of him in the circumstances
because they're not, you know, the the there's a very, very
good book. Ground off and bloody-minded by
history of allinol. Port about the Army in the war
and how he dealt with, you know, people who didn't want to be
soldiers because to the sort of social experiment, the second
world war is that the Army is filled up with people who aren't
soldiers, they don't want to be soldiers civilians and civilian
soldiers, who need looking after and also have vote, you know,
unless it's tough. So then It's a different is a
new relationship. The Army has to have.
And actually, if you have a, if you have a battlefield
breakdown, if you have combat fatigue, and of course, the
names you've changing for that. We call it PG.
We'd call it PTSD, but they wouldn't so you can't call it
that and it wasn't shell-shocked.
Any Market moved on from that idea.
But basically that what the Army really want to do is if you had
a breakdown, they wanted you to get you back at the front line,
because your job to fight, but they also understood some
people, they couldn't. And that's what's really
interesting. Despite because the guy
actually, you know what? You're not, we can't, we can't
make you do this, and we won't, and, and it's just fascinating
and that that time in Italy, afterwards, where, where he's
sort of living in a living, the kind of stately home, and he's
pissing himself together and runs into the cecum is just such
an interesting time and you really do get the feeling that
that although, you know, he's gone through this appalling
thing. It is the thing that turns him
into the But the genius, The Towering comedy genius.
You know, the man who actually, I think creates the entire post
or comedy scene that we're still in the wake of, you know, I
think he's as powerful to British comedy, as beetles, are
to pop music. Yeah.
And World comedy is a result because nothing that the pythons
could do. Could possibly have existed
without Milligan. Havin having, popped the whole
thing wide open. Yeah.
Oh yeah, just impossible. I mean, Peter Cook.
Yeah, Peter got down. If you know the speed of cook
when he was possibly, he was still at Radley.
So we're talking maybe mid 50s, something like that.
Yeah, he wrote a It wasn't a goon show script but it was
obviously inspired by the Goon. Yeah.
And he's just submit it.
I think he just submitted it to the BBC somehow Ella and and
somehow or other it landed on Milligan's desk, try.
And this would have been what 5556 something like that, maybe
and Milligan, it went so far as to write to cook and they met up
and had dinner together. And there's no record.
I think they both drank a lot of wine.
There's no record of what was actually said.
Yeah. At this meal because he, you
know, cook would have been a teenager, and, but it was only a
couple of years after that, of course that we that we get
Beyond The Fringe. And you just wonder what sort of
words of wisdom Milligan may have in Imparted to cook.
Yeah. Yeah.
Or inspiration. You know?
Yeah. How helpful he was on.
You know, I mean that's that's fact.
That is fascinating because I mean, my most of the bone and
contention with the whole thing is that is that And is that the
gun show get always gets left out story of British satire and
you get this idea that there's the satire, Boom the 60s.
And that's when we started disrespecting governments in
this country, in a way that in a way that, you know,
revolutionized everything. Well, you think.
Well, first of all, read some book at some Regency cartoons,
read some. Yeah, read some pamphlets, read
some pamphlets from 200 years ago, please for you before you
make that kind of assertion. But I think the truth about the
stuff that will be thing about Satellite boot.
Is that the people doing it, the people who in, you know, ought
to be working in the foreign office that's think about V to
cook. So, that's where the shot comes
from is that the, you know, the people flicking these at the
establishment of people who should have been in the
establishment, walk or even part of it, whereas, because
Milligan's, you know, I mean, he again, he occupies his peculiar
place because he's that, you know, there were rather
attorneys as father was an officer, but he wasn't a
high-ranking. Officer.
So they're so that they're sort of this peculiar Indian Irish
immigrants to England. They offer occupy very Play
Straight million Americans offer this very peculiar place in you
know, entirely Imperial British culture from out.
So he's sort of he's from outside, as well.
Yeah. In a way that in a way that I
think it really informs his view, you know, everything's
everything needs explaining to him.
Everything's not quite right. Everything's not easy.
Dilek childhood in India. Everything is this sort of Gray?
Drop world and I think the gun show is such a good show.
So Raleigh satirical. I think that's why people have
spotted eating it. So, obviously, satirical, you
know, you know. Yeah, well anyway, he was
dropped into ink when he was dropped into England unprepared.
He was kind of cosseted, I suppose.
Yeah. In India and then dropped into
this world and was, and had an outsider's view of it all.
Yeah, really? Yeah.
Yes. Absolutely.
And an outsider's view that sort of That means he doesn't the
sort of older things, he's not, he's not going to take at face
value if he's going to win. I think, what was so striking
about listening to the gun show is, is how it's all about a
large amount of it's about class.
And although he'd never say that heat that, you know, Milligan,
is it doing in a sort of self-consciously activists
style, or he's not, you know, you're not, he's not, he ain't
no marks as well, you know. He's basically, he's basically
Doing it because that's what he's encountering.
All that all the balls are Posh conman and incompetent majors
and you know I mean blood not grip quite thin.
All those people are like, sort of Posh grifters, that Milligan
is run into who are of no discernible Talent.
Authority thinkers are all are all bust and everything, and I
think that's, that's really interesting.
And that's especially as we we like to tell us how Second one
was when we all pulled together know and what he said, what
Milligan's saying, you know, we incompetence and grifters led
the way. Yeah.
I think that that's that's it. That's that's a radical thing
for someone to be saying, but that's right.
I always, I always equate. I always think of characters
like Dennis Price used to portray in.
Yeah, British movies in the in the 50s.
Yes. The, the public school were
Public School educated but will touch you for a fiver and you
never see that again, you know? Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. Well that's that's you know, a
huge part of the Goon show people, knowing their place is a
goon show thing to, you know, like people like Echols, you
know, bluebottle get gleefully going to their deaths,
essentially. Yeah.
Because I've been told to yeah, absolutely said no problem.
I think that's really interesting to.
I'm a bone specialist. What do you want, bones?
I haven't got any but nonsense nonsense.
Fall down without them would fall down without them.
Could fall down without them you'd fall down.
Take it dries. I know I know for a fact that
you have a large number of them, tucked away, somewhere.
Have you been crying into my family album x-rays but I often
tell him what you found. Alright.
A pretty spot on my window which is he gonna party like nowhere
fast tonight. So I'm Merry Christmas to you
all and let me tell you, which is he gone?
You have a very compromising x-ray, photograph of two sets of
Bones, yours and Lady's. It's a lie.
We're just friends. How much do you want for the
next 310? Pounds Nettie to be paid in
money. Before chapter 10.
Yes. Yeah, when I had a speaking to
Christopher Douglas who said Ed Reardon from a drayton's week,
all right. Okay yeah.
Yeah. And he when he's no huge fan of
the goons particularly but he's fascinated by post-war British
radio comedy in general. Yeah.
What he said was which was
really It just it just cuts through everything.
It is such a simple statement. It just got to the nub.
He said, the 1950s was the only decade of post-war British
comedy. That didn't really have any
officer class comedy. Yeah.
I suppose you had mirror Norden
but, you know, they were right. As went?
They more than yes. Yes.
Yeah. that's very, that's a very that's a very interesting point
that I mean that and you, you know, because the BBC
periodically for the discovers, you know, Matthew Sweet saying
that the likely Lads was the BBC discovering the north, you know,
obviously that they've been a you know, because of Coronation
Street that sort of memo. You know, go north and rights in
find something to write about yes and you get the feeling
that, you know, because the because I mean the other thing
to the other thing to remember, also still in the 50s, the BBC's
essentially, what. Not even 20 years old by 1950.
It's brand new. It's had to react to it.
You know, the gigantic events, the war.
It's trying to his trying to not upset the apple cart.
I think that's the really interesting thing about the
BBC's actually, how really in the word State broadcaster and
you can't describe it as anything else.
And so in the 50s, it's sort of trying to find its role and the
gun show is a big hit and yet the BBC's terribly worried about
it because they might say something rude.
At the state broadcaster and how do they reconcile the Anarchy of
the shit cause, you know how rude a good show goon shows are
once you know what the code is? Yes.
It's quite striking building and then, you know, they're doing it
in plain sight and clearly milliken's having fun playing
games with that aspect of it anyway, I mean, the be busy, all
these things are brand new reel, it in the 50s.
Yes. All of them.
Well, that's right. I mean, I think there was
something like, something, like, 30 BBC officials gunning for the
Goon show during its run. Yeah.
You know, yeah.
And, and that was because that was off the back of.
And the problem is, you said it's such a satirical show and
it was. But but that got that got muted
when they would, they would edit the shows for ya if overseas
radio Instead cut out or topical references and anything slightly
sore? See ya.
And those then those versions often tended to be the versions
that would go out on the lp releases and the cigars and 70s.
So, people growing up, they would hear lots of gags, and
lots of explosions, and all that sort of thing.
But they wouldn't hear Churchill Impressions, or they wouldn't
hear flip references to receiving obes, or knighthoods,
or yeah. The things like that and even in
1954 they were including recordings of Nazi rallies in
goon show, you know, the, you know, the seek I'll seek.
I'll kind of thing. Yeah.
And that's less than ten years after the end of the war, and
it's just so radical. Yeah, yeah.
Well, but also, what's interesting about that is those
historical historical View and of Nazi Germany and its position
in British culture. Haven't become fixed yet, and
so, of course, they'd use that, of course, they have that in the
show if the shows going to be relevant to what what's going on
in people's lives, rather than, you know, that that, I mean it
is very, very interesting, but that because because I've heard,
I've heard sort of mutant versions because those are the
only versions that our offer. And and I mean I love the as a
kid. I loved the funny voices.
I love as an adult. I love the sort of Absolute.
That's dream Consciousness kind of free association of a lot of
it. Milligan is obviously also using
the constraints to being put on it as a way of inspiring self
and finding his way of maneuvering around.
So, so the pressure is under creatively is generating
Creative Energy to helping. You know, the I'm sure he'd have
never agreed with that, but it's sort of giving him something to
kick against she sort of good. I mean, that's obviously not
what the BBC we're doing. It's been through something of
them. At least it's happening.
But I know, I mean, I, yeah, it stands to reason that the show's
would obviously have contemporary grit in them
because otherwise, what, otherwise, they are just silly
voices shows and you're like, well, what is going on?
Why are they so why do people love them?
So there's now pretty much most series 5 shows on words because
because pre-series five, most of the show's didn't get kept.
Yeah. Um, but sort of, from D 4
onwards, the every show is available pretty much and now
with the bits that were edited out put back in the other I'm
listening to these again because I grew up, you know as a
teenager I discovered them in the 80s and listen to them
voraciously and then sort of drifted away for about 30 years
and I've come back to them and I'm revisiting them.
Yeah and it's amazing. The last 12 months have been
doing this just re listening to shows that are that are As they
went out in the 50s with the references to, you know, so much
Churchill. I mean, just just last week, I
recorded an episode about the Goon Show episode Wings over
dagenham. And and that's a set that's
basically about a the invention of the airplane and the airplane
is invented in a workshop. Based on Lyle Street.
Yeah and I grew up listening to the edited version and Lyle
Street you know was just you know it's just a name.
Young. But then I realized into it
restored and there was a bit put back in where Ned says he
couldn't get, he couldn't get the plane off the ground, in
Lowell Street and grip bad things as well.
If you can't get off and well Street, you'll never get off
anywhere, right? And then, I found out while
Street was a notorious red-light District in SoHo and right, but
obviously, it was it was yanked out for overseas sales and all
the rest of it, but just things Like that and and references two
strikes as well industrial action.
Yeah so much of it. Yeah.
Yeah well because because of course of course of course that
would all be in there. I mean I is it.
I mean the thing I the thing I also find sort of fascinating
about it is I don't know how how sort of Milligan kept him.
Of, you know, one of the great stories of these, all his
biographies, talk about he was really suffering with mental
health time and how he kept it together and all that sort of
thing. And that to me is, is sort of
extraordinary mystery because, because they were on their on,
basically half the year when they get on half a year off,
half a year. I mean delivering a show that
that was a hugely successful that made them all that made
them all famous. Although radio Fame.
So there's this Leah thing that then afterwards, you know, that,
you know, the threads and things like that, never quite it.
Never quite, they never quite find the solution to have to do
on TV, and then, and then by the time, they may be, could have
figured that sells, he's long gone, that Milligan kept it
together and deliver the show. And I know he had help but no
other people chip in and I know other people take over the
writing. In fact, at times, he's quite
extraordinary that he did this and that he just the pressure
alone of that might drive you crazy.
You know, it's a heroic story of a comedy writer, delivering
something truly amazing entirely within his vision.
You know, stopping the intervention of those who would
seek to change in recognize that something.
It's the measly such a hero Milligan.
So I don't know. I know he's copybook think is
appallingly blotted by some of his fate that later?
Didn't figure, you know, that someone could deliver like that.
For why did I best part of a decade?
Is incredible. That's the thing.
And I think I think he resented Michael banty.
Well. I know he did.
Yeah, we might have been team. Is there at the beginning and
then he moved on because there just wasn't room.
Yeah, it was, there was two big personalities that were just
locking. Locking horns all the time.
Yeah, yeah. And I think he was that he
throughout the 50s, he presented the BBC and some cases rightly
so and yeah, he was paid less than the other two for a start.
I would, she's amazing. Yeah, I don't think he resented
them for that, and why should he really is?
Yes. Yeah, I think he was in, or of
Peter Sellers. He was absolutely.
He was cell as big as fan in a way.
Just the items of what sellers could do.
Yeah. But he I think he kind of
there's possibly a little bit of Resentment in the sense that,
you know, they could be on tour, they could be doing variety or
during the week and appearing on TV and whatnot while he had to
write and then they just pitch the at the Camden theater on a
Sunday. Yeah, and performed and I think,
you know, he found that hard going and all through.
If you look at old newspaper, archives all through the 50s,
every year, there's some article about Peter Sellers saying,
shall I leave the gun show readers and become a film star
kind of that, you know, So obviously Summers was always
going to make it on film and he did, and I think, yeah, Milligan
felt he almost was in With a Chance of emulating that, in a
way because he got, he got a contract to make films for MGM,
a number of films for MGM, the late 50s early 60s.
Yeah. And they all but this they orbit
sort of disappeared without trace and I think then he
realized he kind of acknowledged.
Okay. That's I'm not going to B, I'm
not going to it's never gonna happen.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So so then he did what he does
best he did plays. He did books, he did TV like you
say I'm up some of it but ill-advised but still I mean
when you and I were in contact previously, you Dugout the Goon
show scripts. Yes well this is this is this is
my contact with the goons the gun show script.
So again like my parents It's just, I had, you know, the medic
and Milliken books in a in the, in the loo.
Yeah. Also had a goon show script.
The one that was published in like, 1972, which has got batter
her putting hurler, I can't remember, I can't remember else
is in it. And I'm so my first actual
proper encounter with the goons is, is reading them and not
knowing what the voice is. were not knowing what any of it kind
of was, and Having to sort of imagine it all the not say to my
dad. You know.
What does that concerned like and he do his Equus.
Yeah and what's grip like thin who's he, what's that?
And I'd sort of create this kind of Sonic picture for myself
having never heard it. The 30 days, we drifted to and
fro, then hunger came up on us. If I don't eat soon, I will die
of hunger and if I die, I won't eat you soon.
Thank you very much. Can I smell cooking or do my
ears? Deceive me?
He was right. Something was cooking the, in
the other end of the Lifeboat was a gas stove.
Could this be the end of our search not coming up and down?
Good morning. Yo, yes.
Remember Bexhill I lent you the matches.
You don't want to make a move. I arrest.
You was a dreaded batter, putting her luxury blur and then
your devil don't move. This finger is loaded.
If you kill me, I promise you you'll never take me alive.
How can we prove? He's the challah that better
putting in the corner of the sternum is all the evidence we
need we got him. I've barely sure I am taped me
doing the doing the voices? I'll be some cassette somewhere
me going meanie. Yeah.
Well that's a bit but it was it would have been First scripts, I
ever get it. If any of any, you know, beyond
beyond. Do you know, doing looking at
Shakespearean, English at school?
The first script, I read. So what's g w FX?
Yes. What, what's going on here?
What's happening and it really, really shaped my View.
Kind of like what's possible, you know what?
What's possible on radio? Remember, the being really into
Radioactive on Radio 4 because they seem to have, they seem to
have got their heads. The idea that you need to, you
know, it's not a set comments, it's got to be, it's got to
occupy a different space, just sort of straight sketch there.
Yeah. And and I remember, they're not
remember when I got Unis Victor or after University Vic and Bob
were a big thing. And I remember something, I mean
I love Fickett Bob but I remember saying come on this is
the GU this is the this is completely in line with what
Milligan was doing in the 50s and then and then what he was
doing on the TV and accuses, it's completely in this
genealogy. Surely.
Yeah. And all my, all my clever makes
go knows. True.
Revolution has nothing on you and you're doing shows nothing
on that. You can share with your silly
voices and I'm thinking no this is the this is the judge that
they used to do on victim Big Night.
Out judge does not make. Yeah, yeah.
Miz. What if?
That we're in the Goon show, you won't be surprised you right out
of it. And that's not that which is
again, isn't isn't to say, I don't, you know, I love looking
for, I think they're amazing and interestingly, they're also,
they're not officer class. Are they that that's the other
thing is that they're that they're coming at it from from
that different, that different perspective.
And the satire they do TV send-ups.
They do. I mean the TV set up.
So, do we used to do smell a reason Mortimer.
Again really remind me of queue. You lots of ways?
Yeah. Third absurd, makeup.
And kind of strange costumes with big feet and stuff and it's
all sort of quite Spike. I think I smell of Reason more
time. I think of Steve Coogan before
he was famous. Yeah, that with a prosthetic
ridiculous chin. And I was always a big forehead.
I'm not quite sure. I haven't been.
Yeah. Crying and he's and apparently
he's the lead singer of go west. And he's he's lost his Top Cat
video. That's And it's and it's and
it's not a, it's not a criticism, it's a like this is
the this is the stuff I really love that people, people
completely prepared to be silly, donkey kick, what?
Let's try it. What Chung cakes video annoying?
If you lost your top cap video, I know you fail.
I lost a very dear relatively recently.
You told me it was a very day, a wristwatch West watch.
Yeah. What's wrong?
And I was but my uncle's wear it when I shot him anywhere.
That's not half as bad as this fellas loss.
Love it. So I had these scripts and I the
thing is is then, of course, what you do is you finally get
because it you'd have to buy tapes, used to be quite the
popular get older good show. Finally.
You get a hold of the thing. You listen to it with the script
anything right? I hope shake the picture in my
head wasn't exactly. Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. Right.
But sort of how vividly they're written in terms of what Spike
trying to get out of what the what they can do on the radio is
very, very interesting and how well he knew what they could do
with, you know, G + FX and how well, he knew what he could do
and what sellers could do and what seek and was capable of and
then everyone else free zone or the other cast of characters,
it's there at their, they're amazingly well, written that God
is absolutely in control of his materials.
Certainly by that point because batter putting hers when they're
well established isn't it? So yeah, but that script is
like, it's all there. It's completely like ideal
indicted in its execution and in in what's on the page?
Yeah, that was that was gonna sound completely nerdy here.
But that was about, that was something like the 103rd gun
show that they are recorded okay, and I didn't know that but
I won't go. Why I know that.
But but if you look at the sort of 90-odd gun shows the for that
show. Yeah, they weren't fully
realized, they weren't they were still, a lot of them still
pretty raw. A lot of them.
The only ones with sketch-based, you know, they weren't there
wasn't a running narrative, some of the characters were
ill-defined or hadn't been developed properly.
Yeah, and it's really from Series 5 that in, which better
pudding is about, you know, part of that. it's almost like
they've gone away at the end of series 4 and I don't know up to
use a terrible phrase workshopped for the whole summer
or something and come back, come back, totally transformed but
it's fascinating is that because because they give him for so
they can for series to figure it out which is like the most
amazing and in high profile and with people listening and I'm
fascinated that then they're able to Do that and think yeah,
people are listening to this. We have four Series in but we
haven't got it right yet. So we still need to fix it.
I mean, that's incredible. Yeah, so we're much of a python
fan. Well, yeah, but but I, I think
I, my problem is I came at python I came at python by the
film's, right? Yeah.
I came up quite and violife Brian.
Right? And so you know it immediately
we are we are going to show again but but but what I love
about why I think I because I think that's their best film by
really long way. Hmm.
And and the reason I and I do like holy grail, I don't much
like lima life the reason I mean very strange sort of that third
film but but but what what I think is brilliant about it.
And it's sort of like, you know, Harry Hill didn't even but stay
with me with this analogy will work is that when you've got
that python were obviously a brilliant crew.
But what they, I think they always needed was a subject and
Life of Brian because they're having they got to chain
themselves to this story and make their point.
All of the sort of python. Kind of not seeing us some sort
of throwing sketches away and all that has to serve a higher
purpose rather than kind of where we're breaking boundaries
here on, isn't it interesting that we're disrupting the sketch
shows or hmm? And that's that that I think
strangely enough serves them best and and then and then, you
know, something Now for Something Completely Different
is the best organ. It really is a best of, I think.
Yeah. And so, when you go back and
sort of grind your way through the series, you realize that
that film Is a very much a best of and that obviously sketch
shows a hit Miss, and they were very fortunate to be allowed
freedom to hit and miss. But it's off again, it's officer
class and I'm not, you know, I'm an officer class person.
You know. Maybe make no mistake.
Yeah. Yeah.
Always always feels like and, you know, obviously pythons
massively influential incredibly important.
But again, when Chloe's does Fawlty Towers, I kind of feel
finally. Finally, they put this sort of
Finely tuned stallion to use, they're running in a race rather
than adding bad him do a headstand, you know what I mean?
And he said he's clearly said that himself about Fawlty Towers
is I was I was pleased finally, to actually just do comedy that
had to have a beginning, a middle and an end and had to
have jokes rather than this destroy jokes or throw jokes
away. But I was sort of set free by
having to do format. Yeah.
And I think that's what's brilliant about life Brian.
Is there set free by Talk. Prego.
I found what I was trying to say it is se but Harry, Hill's
worldview, if you have it, talk about television is more is most
of it works better rather than to the vacuum of just his
worldview, just his way of looking at things.
I think, I think that's the case with python with life.
Brian. And why meaning, your life
doesn't work because they've, they haven't actually
disciplined themselves into Channel themselves into a thing.
Whose wife is why? Actually Holy Grail Works.
Be is pretty good, but it doesn't just You know Arthurian
Legends you taking the piss out something that well whatever but
when you doing Messianic religion you're absolutely your
landing and blow quite spectacularly that their
Appliance of that there is you know their style to that subject
lands the clothes, really brilliant and I sort of them.
Yeah, but they are so that it strikes me they were so in the
Goon show get and they were showing so the death of Q.
I mean Palin says so. So I, you know, it's not, it's
not an acknowledged, but it's the fact that after Philip, it
doesn't matter what applies to know that other people want to
know is that, you know, if you want more of that, go look, go
look at what Milligan's do, if that's what you want, sketches
that fracture, or things that fall apart or things that
comment on themselves and all that stuff and things that
comment on themselves long before anyone.
One that came up with the idea of post-modernism, you know, he
was doing that hell. Yeah, right, yeah.
I mean, I think with python, you have to decide that you're into
it rather than they don't attempt to convince you or
anything, you know, they don't live.
There's not much of a drawbridge down with both, you sort of have
to, you have to be in on it. And that's again, that's why I
think, you know, life crying is such a powerful film because
it's about, it's about a subject, everyone knows about
the rather than just kind of absurd stuff.
Yeah. They're all brilliant B.
But, but, yeah, I find, I find. It's quite cold.
Is that the other thing? Yes, maybe that's it.
And the thing is that the thing is, they are absolutely from my,
you know, I've of that background.
But I'm, you know, if there was a program ever, the, if that's
how you formed your taste just to, you know, if identity
politics view of what comedy should like, I ought to owns
like Monty Python. Yeah, because it does their
Oxbridge in their middle class and there.
You know, all that sort of thing.
And yet some of it I find kind of really, really cold and
wearing their brains on their sleeves and all that sort of
stuff just doesn't necessarily appeal to me.
Yeah, it David go David Quantic on last year and he said, he
said the opposite. He said he was predisposed.
Not to like python here. I'd just because I guess because
I was upbringing and he said he just is smacked of six former
showing off so, yeah. But it yeah.
Yeah, yeah. I can see that well, which is
why when I was six former, so many people liked it, you know?
Yeah, yeah. I think it's very interesting
that people are. Now going back to have another
look at Spike, but just me, you know, Nick Newman nickname and
in his love of done that play about really about him, him
being a thorn in the BBC side, and sterically was actually, and
all that sort of thing. And I, I mean, I think the sort
of it would be very interesting to see if there is a way of
readdressing Spike and where, you know, where he, where he
sits in things and his War Memoirs are, I think, genuinely
One is the best second world woman was you could ever read
and you can, you can, you can read, you could read all sorts
of things from them that perhaps weren't necessarily obvious.
I mean, what are the historians are?
I've worked with on the podcast, he's things that he's into think
equals boring War, he's not interested in battles.
He's interested in logistics, right?
And when you read, when you read spikes Memoirs, his point gets
proven wherever they go, they never hungry the metal spikes
battery, Chase, Jack's battery or always well fed and are
always well looked after. And you think right?
So that that actually he's telling us that and that that
that when you, when you think of the war in a different way, you
illuminates things and he's those Memoirs, I think some of
the greatest books about friendship you'll ever read.
Mmm. Yeah, that's well as being
historical record. And I think, you know, I would,
I would stay, you know, that the interesting thing about Milligan
is the sort of And given all the things people say about it, is
that the man's humanity is like, laying bare.
He doesn't hide anything and that's if that's fascinating
thing. There's no, he's not.
He's doesn't hold back. Yeah, that's an old back, that's
for sure. Yeah.
And I think he was working through stuff, wasn't he?
It was the worst part of the kind of a catharsis writing
these Memoirs. He was working through stuff
that had happened. What?
20 30 years before. Yeah.
Yeah yeah yeah yeah. And it's very interesting to
people do people do love them but he got I'm plug James gave
me a real kick in so that they were, you know, they were
bullshit, they're unreliable. That was of thing and which is
always to me, has been a source of great disappointment because
I love absolutely love both. Hopefully these guys and it's It
felt like they were falling out. Yeah.
Miss Clive James. Oh yeah.
So you got the touring Scotland at the moment and well we're
winding up we're winding up the summer.
Then we don't Fringe it all because then I'm out against the
rest of the year. So we're out till they are.
September. October November, really?
It just, it, just it just pouring just rolls on forever.
Yeah, yeah, luckily I like it. So.
If the is the pub landlord work dries up, you could consider
becoming in Mick. Lynch, tribute act.
Really reckon. It's amazing, is that ten days
ago? No one, no one really knew who
make Lynch was no. Well, listen out, thank you so
much for the finding time to speak to me today and I wish you
all the best with the with, with the show with young with
everything basically and and Maybe we will speak again.
Maybe I'll see you in Salford when you when you turn in
Salford. Yeah, well, don't get in touch
and we'll make sure you're at the show.
Don't worry. Thanks again to our, thank you
for listening. I will be back next week with
another show till then take it easy.
Bye.