Hello and welcome to Green Pod. Know if you heard last week
show, you will have heard me speaking to Joe Morris about the
Phantom raspberry, blower of old London Town and we focused
pretty much on discussing. The the to TV iterations of the
Phantom barge blower the the 1971, Ronnie Barker one-off,
30-minute play. And of course, the 1976 to
Ronnies serialization, and during the course of my research
prior to my conversation with Joe, I contacted Dirk maggs
because Dirk had been the director of a Stage production
of the Phantom rosberg, lower about six or seven years ago.
And I said to her look you know, it is there anything you can
share with me, any sort of background information about the
staging of the play? Is that any sort of information,
anything you can give me and said, look he said, look at the
bucket. Do better than that.
Why don't I put you in contact with the guy who was behind it,
all Lee Moon lie, He is an actor, writer director and don't
put us in contact and very quickly.
Lee, and I had a conversation and it was only going to be
maybe initially, 15 20 minute chat, and it actually, well, it
extended shall we say? And we had a really, really
interesting conversation about how we put the show together,
all the research that he undertook in terms of how he got
the script together, how he sort of tweaked and changed and
adapted. It anyway, all that and more is
in the show, I hope you enjoy it.
I'm never know where I sit in the size of fandom with Spike,
because then, you know thing, oh, yeah, I know this and I know
that. And then somebody else comes
along and blow anything. I don't know.
I just feel like I've invaded the, the cult done by the back
door and that's why I said to you on my email, you know, my
first in with Spike was the Q Series when I was at school and
of course, then that's when I found out about the goons and
I'd never really listened to the goons until much much later on.
In fact, if I'm honest, I think it was when I audition for one
of the other stage plays and they wanted myself potentially
Really as an understudy to put into place by yeah.
And so I did, I did research there and a lot, long story
short, it was a, it was a big ask, massive because the
character that they had, you know, the spike character was in
bed but he's never off stage plus, they wanted me to
understudy Sellers as well. And A guy I knew at the time he
used to do Peter Sellers sort of Impressions and why View.
And and he was also asked about the auditions today, who was
that? That was guy called Clive
Greenwood. Okay?
But if you want somebody who's really done loads of seller
stuff David he was in Phantom raspberry blower.
I mean, he's played salad on stage.
I mean, he knows tons and has met some of sellers found.
So he won't be says sorry what was his name, because you broke
up David Boyle so he was awesome.
So how did the whole idea of staging the Phantom head is
going to say the Phantom hitch? I always say the Phantom head.
Shaver yes. Yes of course yes I had it
again. How did the idea of the Stage
production of phantom raspberry blow come about?
Okay, now this is an idea that I have had in my head for a A long
time. So we put it on in 2015 and I
have to take it was pretty quick from talking to David and then
me sitting and watching and writing down because there's no
script to be had unless you you buying one on auction.
Yeah, I can get into that later because there's several versions
and so I always wanted to do it. I always wanted to do it and I
Approach Norma, probably. So 2015, we did the actual show.
I'd approach normal, I think, Oh 2008 until you 2008.
That's what else and nothing really came of.
It quite rightly she was very protective of spikes work and it
just I thought that's a shame. It's just I think I got she had
a gatekeeper so it showed a brilliant system of time.
It was just spending things often.
Yeah, Yeah, I mean, nobody. So, quite quite right.
I can understand that. And then I met David and we were
chatting and that's, we were just talking about the goons and
I said to him about the audition that I had had, and it how it
was quite close to me getting the understudy and in the, you
know, we were trying to do something with it and then
because I knew he was in. In Cellars.
I said, oh yeah, you know, all we need to seek them and we
could, we could probably put something on and he knew
somebody the guy can't remember the guys name, but it he wasn't
in the final production things you could make it.
So I said, you know, I've always wanted to do the Phantom
Roseberry blow. And I said, but I don't how much
of it is Spike and I don't know how much of it is Ronnie Barker
and it was always a bit of an unknown quantity about that and
people knew that it was written by Spike, but they also knew
about Barbara. I found out loads of info which
I can I can talk to you later because there's a lot and so
David said, well, I know producer and ice and he's a he's
a goon span and I went. Wow, okay, right, whoa.
Yeah. Ask one thing led to another and
October 2015, we did three nights at the Victoria Theater
and it went down a storm and that my dad, who's not a theater
goer. So that's the best thing I've
ever. I see it was very gentle song
but he absolutely loved it. And he goes meet one of our
Phantoms John chalice who he's a huge fan of so that made my dad
today. So that was lovely to get that.
So that's how that it was it was a long time coming as these
things are, and then just meeting Like-minded people that
we have a good night's do that. I know this.
So that's how that that's how that happened.
Why bells ring in the duchess? That's the no no, no I'm
inspector you've only got these to choose from.
It's all very difficult difficult.
They all look so much. But if I could hear the noise
again, so that the noise test number one.
Number two, number three. As a teenager, you must have
seen The Two Ronnies on it. Did you see the 1971, six days
with Bart? Yes, you did.
I did. And that was strange.
Because while watching The Two Ronnies, I thought oh he's been
on the form right and I couldn't work out why how come I'd seen
it? But yes I had I had seen the and
in fact in 2008 roundabout there that I bought the six dates of
Barker to have a look at it. So I got that first because
obviously then the The Two Ronnies DVD came out later.
And so what I, what I I did, is I merged bits of the script and
I mean Spike change some names. I think Ronnie change some names
as well. And then I started to do a wee
bit of research and I was lucky enough to go down at all house.
Norma allowed me to see a very early draft of the Phantom Ranch
biegler. Set for television, a one-off
special for goons reunions. Yeah yeah yeah and because
sellers went off to Hollywood then that's how it all collapsed
and it was that's how Barca Founders you know sitting on the
shelf and why not can I ask you about that?
But yeah I mean you may not know but that's what intrigues me
because I There's very little other than what you've said
there. In terms of it was written for
the goons as a sort of a reunions one-off show and
sellers had kept filming commitments so it never
happened. That's, that's all I can find
about that. Is there?
Did you, is there anything more? Was it, was it, for example.
Do you know if it was planned as the first of a number, you know,
if it was successful, did Spike any intention of writing others,
or is there anything that you found out from what I from what
I gather? Heard from that little Snippets.
That Norma said, I think it was just a one-off sellers, was
missing the camaraderie, and it was from that, that Spike You
may have already had the idea to do this, but it was from that
spy Bird, right? Okay.
And let's get the band back together for a one-off because
it was, I don't think sellers if I remember correctly.
Now, I don't think sellers was having a particularly brilliant
time. Well, yeah, reasons.
If Spike wrote this around about late 60s, I'm guessing 60
thinking I think it was. Yeah, I think it was 68. 69.
Yeah, so it was around that time that sellers started appearing
in a chain of flops. You know, the film's just
weren't doing anything most of them.
Anyway. Yes.
And also he was in a pretty Loveless marriage with Miranda
Quarry. That was a bit of a disaster.
Yeah and I know that at that time he was he was being very
introspective and and nostalgic I guess and also in 68 they Got
back together to do that Thames TV, Tales of men's shirts show
and if you ever saw that which your John Cleese as the
announcer. Yeah, I mean you can get snippet
of it and it's on YouTube black and white.
Yes. Yeah, yeah.
So possibly around this time, you know, Salazar has done that
with Harry inspired. That he's, he's feeling a little
bit vulnerable or that low or whatever.
And he's thinking, actually, you know what, I'd love to like you
say, get the band back together and spikes.
Got the script, we writes the script and do you know any of
the did normal say was it with we're going to be playing new
characters or we're going to be repressing goon show characters
at all. It was all new I've seen.
I've seen the one of the original scripts.
Yeah and there's no goon no goon characters at all.
Okay. And I've seen a couple of pages
of the television but I mean there are so many versions of
Phantom raspberry blowing, you wouldn't believe.
I mean, just why is that? I think in all honesty, there's
a draft that Spike wrote just as something, you know, it's just
coming out of his fingers and he's just writing it.
Yeah. So, excuse me, I've seen bits of
a handwritten and there have been several that have been up
for auction. I even contacted the auction
house to ask because it went for something like a hundred and
something pounds. Unbelievable.
Oh my God, missed it by about a year and a half.
Yeah. Because I want you to look in
order to use as much info as possible in it, so it was all
new characters. And then I think once there was
the chat with sellers, that's when it became more of a
solidified Special by, they were going to get one of them the
names escaping at the moment. Although Peter eaten was, it's
easy to say. Yeah, that's it.
So it was all, it was all going ahead and then Sellers comes,
mr. Hollywood, so it was new
characters. Wow.
See you say that. But I mean, he obviously made
Hollywood films before this period but maybe I think again
if only we knew that the exact dates here but he was making
films around this period. Like there's a girl in My Soup.
Yes which which did okay which did pretty well at the box
office so maybe he's maybe he was had commitments for to do
that and what? Was the Pink Panther.
Not the not, the not, the first one.
I'll when they attack the return of.
That was 75. That was that was well after.
Yeah. So so I know the story is like
you're saying, I'm sure it's true that he had filming
commitments but he wasn't making very good films around this
time. Yeah.
And I think it's funny but that's there's a quote, where
have I seen that? Quote, there's a quote, where
Milligan Sedum sellers buggered off to Hollywood.
So that put a cap on that. Yeah, now I don't know whether
that's one of the spikes quotes or whether it's from The Barker
book, I'm not sure it's, you know, it's funny I read so much
and if it all goes in and then and then you think, what is it,
honey? You know, I'm struggling to to
remember, what? Don't worry seat in it.
I've just found actually because I've got a I've got a number of
documents that I Unearthed shall we say, which pertain to the
Phantom raspberry blower. And there's a there's a
reproduction of the handwritten script or page of the
handwritten script That Spike did and it's subtitled.
The extraordinary foul and noisome iconoclast of old,
London Town. That's right.
Yeah, and it says here, a one-hour colored TV.
Special starring. Peter Sellers as Inspector
Alexander of Scotland Yard here in the Victorian mystery.
Melodrama the Phantom raspberry blower or Fleet Street or the
extraordinary found noisome and naughty iconoclast of old.
London Town. That's yeah.
Yeah. And it goes on to say Milligan
also I wrote that he would appear as the Phantom and that
seek Him would appear as Bowles. Yeah, which obviously those
characters appear in six dates of Barker and The Two Ronnies.
Yeah, and, and inspector Alexander that that, yeah, that
name carried over until The Two Ronnies And then excuse me.
The name is changed. I throw yes cool.
Just for a gag just for 11 gang on that.
But yeah it's and it's either that or another document that
I've seen. That says ending to yet be
written or defined because they hadn't got an ending for it.
So don't know if it's on that. Document know is that that's all
that there is? The goons involvement or
potential involvement? Yeah.
So it's a bit of a been you filled in a lot there, though.
I mean it's, that's, that's really interesting and there
would have been fascinating if it had gone ahead.
Oh, yeah. And you think, because
obviously, so they work together in 68 for the Thames TV show and
then we don't see them again together until 72 the last inch
of all yeah, which, which ignites mild goon Mania, and it
means that the goons are bankable.
Again and is a Resurgence of interest and things like the
Goon show scripts, books can come out and help ease that
coming out from the BBC and they start repeating them more and
and and that led to Parkinson beats the goons and a lot more
photo opportunities with some basic Milligan.
But I wonder if for argument's sake 1969 1970, the three of
them had got together and and filmed a half-hour TV special
for Christmas or something of the Phantom raspberry blower
whether you Yes, that might have been successful and triggered a
series almost like The Ripping Yarns series.
Tell ya he's you know, not not a not a continuing narrative about
the Phantom burglar. That we do individual half our
stories about some character from history or whatever.
It may be starring three of them.
Yeah, I mean it's interesting to suppose, isn't it?
You know it's almost like testing the water.
Hmm, I'm a potential series and you know, I think I think it
Would have worked. I think it would work well
because they would have done something different.
Interesting me. They I love the fact that says
Made For Color. That's the other odd thing is
you've got the our version yeah you've got the 30 minutes
version which would Barker did. Yeah then you've got the and I
did I think it's probably about 70 minutes.
I can't remember. It's it's do Runs The Two
Ronnies in, its entirety the serial, it runs to about an hour
and Five minutes something like, all right.
Sit, right? Yeah.
It's a good drinking with memory there but interestingly there's
swades of that, that is written by Barker.
And there are also bits in it that don't make the half hour,
but is Spike because of, you know, looking at one of the
scripts I got. All right, that's that's it. um,
so it's It's very interesting that not only did Spike, right
several versions of it but there are several versions that were
shown on the television that could have been on the
television and then of course, when I did my stage adaptation,
I then had to think about, right?
That's that's what I want that's going to work and I wrote new
material. For it, when we did it on stage
and we can talk about this in more detail, you know another
time. But when we didn't stage it was
set like a radio show. Yeah, and what I've done now is
now I've removed that radio show and and it's it's become
something else. Should it go on again to make it
more like, A, if Spike was doing it by ra Q television theater.
Oh, okay. Yeah.
I know. I've I what I've done in that
version is I have a lot of the market stuffers.
In fact, if I'm honest all of the market stuff is gone and
I've I decided to invent something that Dirk said
actually we were chatting at the time and he was talking about
source. Look at Spike and and we were
chatting about spiking his works and actually I thought, you know
what, I'm going to go back to what I knew the spike visually
and look at the cute stuff. How did he use props?
What odd props did you use? So that becomes because with the
obviously with goons so a lot of sound effects that are the sound
is another character. I always saw that as issue Got
the sound effects. And, you know, there's a that
classic story that Spike Tails about it.
He is one of his station direction to sounds like, you
know, such as characters being hit over the head with a sock
full of custard. Yeah, it doesn't, you know,
doesn't sound like it, so you get a soft look.
I said, so he was very much writing the stage movements, a
stage sound effects, rather as another character in its own
right. And That's the beauty of the
goons is that my goodness meeting push that and so what I
did I thought right Q? Okay if he's not as a radio
let's make it visual. What did Spike do with this
visuals? And so I went back to the Q
Series as I say, took out the Barker stuff.
And what I also did I nicked spikes gags from other material?
To put into the Phantom rotten world.
So there are things in there that, you know, it's because
Spike also used to repeat sir gags because they were popular,
you know, oh, that's all the time.
Yeah, the totally if they were bombing.
So that's what I did. So, I really soak myself into it
to think, okay? If if it could go on stage You
know, and I'm not obviously I'm not, I'm not trying to pick
myself up at all on this but I did think what would spike do
can I do that? You know how how can we get his
his uniqueness visually on stage because he did move on he did
move on to be more Visual and you know pythons usually
influence not only by its by the goons but also by the q-series
you know so I suppose that's where it came from.
Me. Because I seen that the Q Series
and that's the sort of Mayhem that I wanted.
Hello. My name is Alan, clear.
I had a lovely joke today. Forgotten it only when I think
of the keys series and I'm sure you'll like me.
You've got the complete Q on TV. I love you.
Yeah. Yeah.
It's great. Doesn't do to binge watch it
though. I find because you have to watch
it sparingly. Yeah.
Yeah, but when I think of the q-series, I think of individual
sketches or I think outsized fake noses, yes and tags on
everything hanging off. Well, actually it's quite a
really interesting you say that. And then, of course there's
sticky where you cut yourself shaving and he would stick.
Yeah. Blob of.
Now, the, I don't know if, you know, but the tanks are Costume
tag tags. So what happened was that?
The BBC would put a tag on the costume and it will say spike
for seen three and they would put them on.
Those are the tanks that the costume people were put on.
So when they went to grab their costumes, they knew whose coat
it was and and that just became an in-joke for that. and it's
that sort of Creativity. And and Madness.
That is brilliant. You notice it.
Have you seen them? If you watch the great
McGonagall, the film he did and somebody for.
Yes, I have. Oh, okay.
I'll move on. Yes.
Yeah, yeah. I could only have to say, I
could yes. I laugh at certain B but I could
only watch watch it from. Sidestepping almost going.
Okay, yeah, I can see what's going on here.
Can I don't know. Probably when I watched it the
time perhaps it wasn't the right.
I wasn't in the right mood. Yeah, I know I just wondered one
of my favorites. I'm a more fan of bed sitting
room. Oh oh yes yes.
Brilliant. The reason, the reason I mention
it because it's filmed at all of its film that inside, Wilton's
musical. Yes.
And it's obviously about Out a fictional life of the poet
McGonagall. Yeah.
With as you say with Peter Sellers as Queen Victoria Queen
Victoria becoming a recurring Motif with Milligan.
Yeah. Yeah.
Especially in the Phantom broswer blow.
Yeah, I don't wondering. I'm just, I'm just, it was it
just occurred to me while I was doing research for this maybe
instead of McGonigal. If you tried to do a film
full-length film of the Phantom Ranch blower again from
Wilton's. Whether it, whether it could
Could be done and whether it would have held together better.
Yeah. And you see, interestingly, I
was talking to Norma via email and we went to go see a show at
Wilton's and I didn't realize that Spike was one of the people
in the 60s who campaign to keep it.
Yeah, from being knocked down. So, That was that was strange
because as soon as I walked in and went, oh my God, this would
be brilliant for the phantom world, revolve around the town
without knowing all that, so it's odd all them.
It was a spike kept kept haunting me almost with, with
certain things. One of the first times I wrote
to Norma funny enough. I looked at from a television
from the television, could the television was on in the
background and I got CB, These on because my daughter was very
young at the time and and she was blue to it and it was spiked
Millie guns voice. Narrating a children's story and
I thought this is odd. It keeps popping on pink.
Keep, you know, it was it was, it was constant, but I found out
and now it this may have been Norm of the told me this but
Spike. Had a Fascination about the
assassination attempts on Queen Victoria's life.
Okay. Yeah, that's where this whole
Queen Victoria thing keeps cropping up on because obviously
in Phantom raspberry blower, a lot of the pot pivots around
them stopping him from getting access to the queen and the are
doing doing harm to her. And Mcgonagall's great
McGonagall. Forget the name of the Assassin.
The real life assassin is played by John Bluto, who attempts to
assassinate the queen and McGonagall in the film foils his
attempt. Yeah.
So that's interesting. That's nice little sort of cross
over there. So like you say Milligan's got
this interest in attempts on the life of the queen.
Yeah and she said there were several attempts on her life so
it was quite interesting. You get that little section in
in Phantom last week. Were Queen Victoria's reporting
for Duty Home. Secretary.
Therefore we have found it necessary to take certain steps
here. I beat his Prophecies of now.
Your duty is clear. You have all been chosen as your
general. Facial resemblance to her
majesty. Given the specific duties to
perform one of you will take up residence in Buckingham area.
Another will drive in an open land.
I'll through Hyde Park, will give us Soiree.
It's James is very often. So in this way, we hope to decoy
the miscreant in the being overconfident.
Where will I buy? Just you?
Lee Pace, you will be playing the lead in Charizard
hippodrome. A common misconception, shall we
say? Is and it's quite clear watching
the six dates with Barca episode and then watching in full The
Two Ronnies serial version, it's quite clear that on the six days
of barker episode. David Jason is blowing
raspberries because he gets a credit at the end.
Yeah and likewise in the The Two Ronnies it's Spike because you
can also either he gets a credit and also you can clearly hear
him grunting and groaning, a lot of the time Prior to actually
blowing a raspberry. But but for a while and there
was no, remember there would like newspaper reports when
Judge David. Jason's water biography came out
about 10 years ago where he was claiming that he'd blow in the
raspberries in The Two Ronnies. When clearly he hadn't I think
it must just must have just been he got mixed up really?
I think that's probably the case.
Yeah because I was always under the impression it it was Spike
for The Two Ronnies and then it got skewed because of that, and
of course, and then maybe people listening to you, you know, your
podcast who had forgotten or didn't know that there was a
previous version of an tomorrow as well.
And I think that's the same with the general public true and
we're through the Press. So I think that's where you
start building the myths upon that.
Yes, yes. And and it was always it was
always my intention. Should this pan out to be bigger
than that. This day's play that indeed we
do get Spike doing raspberries, not all of them because some of
them would have to be live but especially towards the end
because I think I just realized I was going to say we're going
to summon him from the dead, you?
Well, the possibly possibly get my get my Go Ben team on the
job, that's it. But yet we have been nice to
lift a raspberry for the for the one at the end or something.
You know. Just to give to give them a
credit. Yeah.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
So when you said when you came to writing the script putting
the script together for the 2015 version and you said you based
at a guess on the six dates with Barca script and not The Two
Ronnies know what What I, what I did.
So first of all, I by that time that I had that the DVD and the
two wrongs came out. I'd also got the six days.
So I sat and paused and wrote and then paused the The Two
Ronnies version, right? I see.
Okay. Then I went to the six dates and
I sat down and had it on and went over.
So I was looking at the script that I've written to see what
was different. What was better?
What worked And what's, what was my favorite names?
Were different as well. And sort of I thought, right?
Okay. And that worked better because a
the Beats for that that's that's quicker.
So that's and then also what was added later was?
Because I looked up one of the scripts at Norma hand, I then
took some photos. Of the things that I thought
worked really well and thought, right?
Well, I can then type those out and in certain and in fact, I'd
through time wise, I, there was something I didn't, but then
revisiting it for the different version than I have.
And that meant that I pushed out the Barker stuff.
And I got to a point, a mixture on the email, I knew Choose,
which just because I'd seen some of the documents of spikes.
I'd also just see myself in it so much that I could hear it.
And I could they were gumrah goon gangster that we used
again. And I thought right.
Okay, yeah. Got that.
That's so. And then I stitched together
some scenes and also flip Some scenes over for an interval just
just to make it so that we got a through a dramatic point.
And then so it's the the iteration I've got now is Spike
plus spikes, you know, Source material from elsewhere, plus my
stitching together and and having more of a narrative and
An end. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I know you say you can tell the spike lines because for example
we must act fast. I'm acting as fast as I can.
Sir. That is a is that?
That is an obvious sparkline. Yeah.
Whereas when it comes to try and identify lines that bark and
they have written that's not quite as straightforward.
Really? Yeah.
And and the whole the whole scene with The Man In Chains
when they go into the shop, it's all right, dick, they've gone.
If you don't. Okay.
Barker and that's to, I get it it he needs to fill out the
serious, you know, the six episodes of whatever many
episodes it was a during that run.
The eighth episode blimey. Yeah.
So I get it.
I understand that you know, and there are gangs in there that I
guess. Yeah.
I recognize that. That's that's Ronnie Barker, bad
breath. What makes you think you got bad
breath? People tell me why don't you
believe them? I tell you what.
You've got to do. You've got to take a teaspoon
full of horse. Manure every morning quirino,
wouldn't turn it down a bit. I guess there were a few in the
world that many thinking about it, but there's certainly a few
scenes or images or stereotypes employed in both versions, 50
versions that you probably needed to ditch, like the black
face that we get with the lady Berkeley hunt.
Yes, that's right. Yeah, when their hair turns
White and her face turns black? Yeah, yeah.
Did youdid, you discreetly. Remove those.
Or what did you do with those? Aye, aye, as they say adapted
them for a modern audience. Mmm.
So, there is still a change. There is still a change in
there. But no, there's, there's no
black face and interestingly, you say, there's a gag right at
the beginning. And it's a, what, what did he
look like? It was dark.
So we had a dark face and I thought, okay, right.
But then revisiting it. I thought, hang on, hang on a
minute. If it said correctly, I I can't
see that as as effect. I as offensive as as the black
face. Oh no, no, no.
And, and then, so, yes. There there were some things
that went now be having a bit of Jewish Heritage myself.
I don't mind Benjamin Disraeli, but I don't.
Speak for everybody. I know it's different now, I've
got it, I've got the gag said by the judge because strangely
enough in one of the the non transmitted versions there is a
judge in it. So there's more of a court thing
rather than the House of Lords. So all the House of Commons.
So there were things that I could see that he'd already
done. That are then being changed and
I thought, you know what? That was a good idea.
So I've put that back if you see what I mean, it's a real.
It's a real. You've lifted bits from here and
bits from there and added B. And other bits from q and
written stuff from of your own. And it's like a patchwork quilt.
It is. But it's a, it's a like quilt
because I was the trouble it. And I mean, oh that's the reason
why a lot spikes material is enormous because people do find
it offensive. Now, you know, with either using
Blackface or certain sexual images that people don't want on
their televisions anymore. And and I I think it's a shame
that because those are peppered with in certain programs of
spikes that the whole of his Cannon or the whole of a series,
doesn't, you know? It, they're just go, right.
No Spike. So, what I wanted to do was Much
have will let grab all the best of Spike and bring it into a
show? That is funny, but we get more
laughs and they're more spikes laughs and I'll stitch them
together and make that more cohesive because some people
just, you know, oh no, he's too too outrageous for me, you know
just just by the sheer jumping from one thing to another
personally, I love it. How'd you get out of that and
you just get out of it? Yes, you know just walk through
another door. That's that that is is great for
me and in fact that was good to to get out of certain
situations. You know the scenes finished, I
just go over just a bomb goes off from there in the graveyard.
That's it. That's how we get to that soon.
You know it. It's it was it was a joy to do
that. So I just wanted it to be a
brilliant celebration of all the Milligan ISM that there is and
just to get people going the best of million of his time.
Yeah. The best of the best of Milligan
is is Sublime and Untouchable. And yes.
Yeah, let's really but yeah, there's a lot that you have to
Wade through to get to that. The game should not so much, the
Goon show ugly is, and I guess that's because they had the
constraints of the times we had that they had that they had to
abide by that, the Goon. And also, you know, you've got
such fantastic performers, working with Spike on that.
But a lot of spikes, solo stuff and later material.
Yeah, did have some content that was dubious at best shall we
say? Yeah but yeah that's a bit but a
lot of a lot of committee. Look at look a lot of money.
Pythons Flying Circus. A lot of that every other week
they were talking about proves I'm not years.
Why? Semantics just want to ask you.
Yeah we must we must mention Dirk.
Maggs. Oh yeah, yeah.
Yeah. What did he bring to the party
in terms of no guidance and whatnot.
A lot and stability now. Interesting.
And this will probably make a different pocket.
There was a lot going on as as there always is with
Productions. So it wasn't sailing smoothly
before the the actual opening night and we originally our
original director died. I don't know Norma.
Said, right? Okay.
And she was always dubious about it and protective and she was
great that she let us go ahead with it, but still kept smiling.
And and there was a conversation going on with the producer that
I wasn't. I wasn't privy to, and she said,
right? Okay.
If this goes ahead, there's only one person I want to direct it.
And that's done. That's right.
Yeah. So we met Dirk and we met him at
Waterloo, train station, and the producer myself and we were
chatting. And I I knew straight away that
this is the guy, this is the guy for us, I wasn't sure what the
producers thought, and you know, who was I, I wasn't the one who
was, you know, there with the money.
But the producer then said, before the end of the evening
yet, I think, you know, we want, you know, I'd like to do it, and
I thought, thank goodness, because I couldn't in all
honesty, knowing dirts pedigree, I couldn't really see how this
was going to work. At one point, the producer said,
well, I'll director, as I don't want you to cause you haven't
got the, he hadn't got the rhythm of it.
He had Got the sensibilities of of the material and sitting
across the table. There was the man who had it and
I thought, that that's who we've got to have that.
You've got to get, and I got on really well with Dirk.
And he gave, he was always giving great advice, and he
would come up to me. And he said, Lee, okay, I think
this is a bit too long. And we, I said, right?
But cut it and I'm the sort of person A person who I don't
want, I'm not precious about certain that all that b.
Mine. I think that works because I've
got somebody who's got the experience the Dirk has a thing
as too long. Yeah.
Right is going, I'll cut it. So that was great.
There was an honesty that I had from Dirk.
There was the the joy of somebody also having, right?
But that's the sound effects. That's yes, we've got to that
that play. As a part that's life, that's,
that's happening. To have him there.
Um, for me was like a breath of fresh air.
I have to say I'm probably haven't told him as much as this
but if he's listening Ducks thank you, I could I cannot
thank you enough for doing what he did.
So yes I was, I was pleased to have dirt on board.
I'm not sure whether the producer in the airport because
it became very much a cast, and duck, and the producer But
that's how it goes. Yeah, you know he's never not
worked. He's been in constant demand
since God knows since the 80s and they said that, there's a
sure indication of someone who's both a reliable inventive and
supportive director and producer and I don't think If I'm honest,
I think he's out there on his own, I don't really think
there's there's many people that if anybody that comes up the
same and is as respected as that, you know, we're very lucky
to have him very lucky and what was what was beautiful as well?
Was that John chalice? Who was one of our Phantoms?
He he moved up so that was that was nice so well.
Well, so ask about those going to ask about that.
So John chalice obviously Boise from rooms and I believe John
Cole short at Danny Baker? Yeah, with the three.
So each each had a different night that they were there, the
Phantom? Yes.
Is that right? So with a offstage actually
blowing The Raspberries, well, they blend The Raspberries.
Let me think about that whether a half and half.
All right, a car from half. Yeah.
Just of the way it was but they were off stage until towards the
end. So there was the reveal now my
idea for celebrity guest Phantom came from the play, what I wrote
now that was an issue. Remember that was in the West
End and yeah, but yeah, and they had, you know, celebrity guests
each week or every two weeks. And I remember when I was Was
talking to Norma. She was asking about names and
stuff. I said, well, my idea is to have
a name as the Phantom, which she loved.
She, she thought right? Okay, I get that.
And so we got John calls. Your was the first one that we
managed to get. In fact, We wanted one of them
Ronnie Corbett. What we didn't know was Ronnie
was really ill. So it was the start of the, you
know, especially world three years before he died.
But that, that was so we reached out to him first and John
culture brilliantly. When he when he came on stage as
the Phantom, he did in a slightly Corbett, which was
hilarious. Sitting in the big chair, do not
quite know about the producers cocktail party but he did have a
velvet jacket on so that was quite nice red velvet.
So so that that that was a nice little tribute.
So John was the first one we got, and I approached him in the
pub and said, look this is what we're doing is were just seeing
dead ringers? And healing all.
Yeah. So that was that was the first
John chalice. I was following.
Owing him on Twitter. I made a comment and he said
something about goons and I said if you like the goons I said
follow me and I'll DM So then I asked him I said this is what we
do. Would you be one of the
Phantoms? Yes.
Was the answer. Is that?
I'm a huge. Boom.
And this mean the world to me was was that effect.
This was when we had Regional director or he just died or and
I told him a day or so later and he said oh how unfortunate?
Let me know if anything changes and then I said we've Got Dirt
makes I know dirt right I'll contact them so that was great.
So we got we got John Chavis and then Danny Baker was a friend of
Dave Boyle who who played the the inspector and David is done
Peter Sellers stuff. So the play in 2015.
So you had three nights. Yeah, so why so short, why such
a short run, a couple of things contributed to that we were
bought to do a mini tall I believe if memory serves we were
optioned by Norma and Spike Milligan Productions to do 12
the dates. I wasn't privy to the fact that
it was 12. I thought that as the bookings
were were coming in and we would or 12 out of 12 dates or 12
weeks, right? But it was a trial and that was
something that That was because I was just the right in the
actor, that was something spoken between Norma and the producer.
We had got dates, booked John chalice certainly was up for
doing part of the talks. We were near where he lives so
that would have been great. That that would have been
superb. Then our co-producer decided to
pull it. And the theaters were told and
the reason co-produced a pulled it is because he didn't get it.
Is what we were told, right? He could have gone on, but I
think first of all, it was a trial.
And as I said earlier, you know, Norman was very protective I got
on. Well, with Norma, I really
liked. In fact, I, you know, after some
distance, I'm contacted her again.
And just before her death, it was, she read the script.
And one of the last emails I've got was she was really pleased
with the treatment. Of the, the new version, which
meant a lot because it, yes, yeah, yeah.
There's a stamp of approval she worked.
So closely with Spike, you know, they're there for their
friendship was a friendship. Not just agent and client?
Yes, she was. She was more than an aging
despite really, wasn't she? Oh, yeah, yeah, sense, the word.
She was that she was a formidable.
Woman was, I used to quite when I used to see the emails.
Okay. Yeah.
But you know, as I said, you know, she was she several times,
you know, she said, oh, we're singing from the same page and,
you know, so it's great. So the last email I've got from
her is a superb email, which you know, because you just endorse
the whole thing. So, unfortunately, that's why it
didn't go on and it's a shame because I actually think it
would have It fills a need for a certain, a certain age of people
who just think you just want good old-fashioned comedy.
I, I think, That we just need a little bit of.
Silly humor with a bit of play on words.
Farcical situations and that spike.
It just tickles a funny bone that people didn't know they
have and just to be A bit you know to go with the silliness
and let that wash over you. I mean is we loved it as
children you know we loved all sort of see him and I think we
sort of stopped ourselves sometimes as adults but spite
never did. And we need more of that.
And that's what, you know that other, that's why I want.
I also think it's a very clever concept theme and remarkable,
organ. Detects a silly concept, it's
it's tapping into the comedy horror that, you know, we used
to see and Hora takes itself far too.
Seriously. Now and it also tells Taps into
that Victorian melodrama so it's got everything it really has,
you know, the right theater with.
You know, it's quite atmospheric, especially old
Victorian theaters that we have in this country it's got a place
it really has. So yeah, I would That's my
mission. All the very best with that and
keep us posted in terms of how that is going.
And I'd like to pick up again with you some point next year
and see how that's going. And maybe by that point you'll
be you'll be due to announcer a slew of dates.
Yes, that would be great and we can, we can we can we can talk
about that and promote that. So Leo, it's been fantastic
speaking with you. Let's just listeners won't know
this, but this was literally arranged this morning.
It was this conversation. You, you were not aware of me
this time last night, where, you know?
So yeah. But this this is, you know, I'm
really grateful for you taking time out to speak to me and and
we will definitely speak again. Thank you very much.
You've been an absolute pleasure.
I've enjoyed it. So I hope I'm not bored too many
people to death, but Ivan Thanks again to lie.
I will be back next week with. In fact, I will be back before
next week. I will be back on New Year's Eve
with a special show. It is a special countdown of
goon pod listeners top. 20 goon shows as chosen by you and I
will be joined in this undertaking by friends of the
show and previous guests, Mike Askins and Sean Gaffney.
And we'll be running down the list from from number 22.
Number one, with all sorts of interesting fun stuff to talk
about. So please look out for that.
As I say, that will be dropping on New Year's Eve, which is
Saturday. So, in the meantime, take care
of yourselves enjoy, what is left of the festive season and I
look forward to being back in your ears very, very soon.
And we'll be running down the list from from number 22.
Number one, with all sorts of interesting fun stuff to talk
about. So please look out for that.
As I say, that will be dropping on New Year's Eve, which is
Saturday. So, in the meantime, take care
of yourselves enjoy, what is left of the festive season and I
look forward to being back in your ears very, very soon.