Peter Sellers was the only one wearing a suit, and Spike said
We haven't got much money the goon, she says.
But we decided to save up for a suit and we give it to Peter
Sellers to wear. For the first three years, Peter
Sellers kept wearing it. You never, they never bought a
second suit. And he said Harry Secombe was
just left the army. He was very disorientated about
clothes. He thought you had to go to the
quartermaster Sergeant to get an issue.
He didn't know about shops. He'd go up to somebody in the
street and said, hey mate, how much for that sweater?
But anyway, that's what that's what, that's what Harry Secombe
told us until Spike told him shops are to go into, not just
look at through the window. The Hello and Welcome to Goon
Pod, highlighting once again that podcasts require a highly
skilled and talented host by being the exception that proves
the rule. This week we welcome back the
writer and man behind The Beatles, Liverpool.
More of that later. Mike Haskins.
And Mike is here to talk about someone who was very much part
of the Goons in a Circle, certainly in the latter half of
the 50s. A man who was linked to Spike
Milligan as a collaborator for more years than he might care to
remember, someone who's very much still with us as well and a
unique voice in post war British comedy writing, John Andrebus.
Mike had met John on a professional footing a couple of
times in the past and was keen to pay tribute to this rather
unsung hero who often gets overlooked despite a staggering
body of work. Plays, radio and television
scripts, movie scripts, books, screenplays, and several
goldfish recipes. Mike began by telling me that he
thought it would be a good idea. You see, I thought this would be
a good idea. You very foolishly agreed with
me. But now I think he's, he's
fascinated because I'm fascinated by all these writers.
But I'm not sure everyone else shares my fascination.
But I think, you know, he's great.
But then you see, yeah, I realized I don't know as much
about him as I should. So I went online.
I went to do a bit of research and would you believe that
there's nothing on there or there's very, very little?
You've met him. You've spent an hour in his
company. I've.
Spent, I've spent a few hours in his company.
What this was so 20 years ago when people used to give me
these kind of jobs. I did a couple of kind of
documentary short series for Radio 4.
So we did one on Associated London scripts.
And last time I, you, you were kind enough to have me on here,
Tyler, we were talking about Associated London scripts.
And so we had John on that and we spoke to Ray and Allen and
all these people. That was great.
And then a little while after that, we did a thing on Larry
Stevens, because again, me celebrating writers who have not
as celebrated as they should be. So John presented that.
And so I, I got to do a little bit of a script work with John,
which was fantastic. As you know, I'd known his name
for many, many years going back to the the 70s and what it was,
was I remember going on these stories so often they go back to
me going on holiday with my mum and dad in the 1970s.
And this is when I discovered all of this kind of comedy.
But I remember we were going on, you know, another interminable
Dr. I think down to the New Forest and it wasn't in 197475
or something like that. And I just remember we'd
stopped, you know, in some kind of lay by somewhere on the trip
down and I'd taken for my holiday reading the Bedsitting
Room, you know, because, yeah, it was in that little series of
Milligan books that they had published by Tandem.
And I had all of them. I'd just been a Milligan and
book of bits and bedside Milligan, all these things.
And one of them was the Bedsitting Room.
So I was about 11 years old sitting in this lane pie and
start reading the bed sitting room.
And you know, it was a bit what is this?
You know, 'cause obviously I've got my Gundjo scripts book,
which again, we've spoken about on the on the pod previously,
but this was a kind of slightly harder work to read the play
squid. I don't know how many of you
presumably have a copy of this to you somewhere.
The bed sitting. Room I do have but not not with
me. Now I have one back home in in
my dad's house. Oh, right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was not the easiest holiday
reading. I think the following year I
took The Rats by James Herbert and between you and me that was
a bit more of a page Turner to be honest.
Oh yes, bit cheerier as well. And and then because I was
thinking about the other thing which came back to my mind,
which is terrible, which is I remember we go down and they
wouldn't my mum and dad, they wouldn't book anywhere in
advance. So you're driving down to the
other end of the country. We've got nowhere to stay.
Anyway. We ended up in this this place.
And they didn't have an en suite bathroom.
It was in the days before that. But they're the next best thing.
Tyler, this is not a happy memory for me.
They had under the bed. Guess what they had?
They had a PO. They had a chamber pot inside.
Yeah, yeah. Not so happy memories of of that
being used in the middle of the night.
That's anyway we're because I'm sharing a room with my mum and
dad. Anyway.
Never mind. Anyway, let's banish all that
and get back. With the scars of your
childhood. Yeah, I know.
So it's just funny these things are associated with with that,
but there we are. So yeah, I went online and yeah,
there's not that much for him. So I think, you know, we're
going to have to spend the rest of the the hour with me reading
his Wikipedia entry. Oh, no, absolutely.
And then to me not. No, you're quite right.
Because then we can make up the time by reading the entry for
John Entrebus, the English clergyman and cricketer who died
in 1878. So.
No, we're not. No, we're not.
We're not. Let me tell you my earliest
memories of John Entrebus. Or, or the name John Entrebus,
because I'd never heard of him until I got into the goons.
His name was credited as as Co writer on 2 gun shows.
The the spawn plague of course. Yes, which I'm sure we'll come
back to that at some point. And the great statue debate.
Yeah. Which were which were both
broadcast in March 1958. Yes, my other memory of him.
If if somebody says to me, John Entropus, I don't automatically
think, for example, like you that the bed sitting room I had
taped so soon after I got into the goons.
I was scouring the, the, the TV and radio listings magazines
that we had where I was growing up every week looking for
anything Milligan or Sellers or seek him or even Banty related,
you know, and, and the national radio station that we had in in
New Zealand that was kind of a bit like a sort of a mix between
Radio 2 and Radio 4 in terms of the it's content.
More like Radio 4, I suppose. Yeah.
And they played a lot of British, you know, sorry, BBC
dramas and comedy and, and what not.
And I remember taping this curious little 13 minute radio
play. Yes, you sent me this.
Called Yeah, and I've I was looking for it for ages.
I couldn't track it down and I finally found it today online.
Bizarrely, it's called Dinosaurs.
Yes. And it was a Radio 3 mini play,
but it was kind of improvised or at least semi improvised.
And it's it's John Entrevis and Spike Milligan.
Spike playing Playing is sort of officious kind of museum well.
What museum? Museum curator What it is?
Curator. Yes.
Can I take a photograph? Yes.
Oh, thank you. Oh, hey, here.
You you can't take photographs of the attendance.
You just said I could. No, that was the dinosaur.
I'm not interested. Listen, you come here to look at
a dinosaur, you've got no right to take my photograph.
Yeah. Yeah.
If you stand over here, I'll take the dinosaur in the
background. That would be nice.
No, Sir. Why not?
Well, it is at my discretion that you take photographs.
And you are not allowed to take photographs of the attendance.
I like to catch you in your natural environment.
That none of that, so I won't have it not being photographed.
Now, you, Sir, kindly look at a dinosaur and move on.
See, that was vegetable eaters. Some of them, they died of
loneliness. Did you know that?
Loneliness. That and overcrowding.
It made them nervous, being overcrowded.
And their eggs got thinner and thinner.
Like the chicken today. Today the chicken is near
extinction and there's never been so many of them.
How about that? See, next time you crack an egg,
you see how lonely that that egg is.
The shell is is very thin. Now, that is a sure sign that
they're near extinction. Now, I don't want to come in
here. I'd see a chicken skeleton next
week. And you guard in it a chicken
skeleton roped off and you telling me it's extinct.
Move. So please.
John's doing the lion's share of the talking and it's, it's
whimsical, isn't it? It.
Is, yeah, I had a little listen to it today, but now I missed
that. I didn't know about that.
That would have been right up my street back in the 70s because I
think that's from about 7475, isn't it?
So I don't know. Yes, I missed that 75 because
every. Week I would be scouring the
Radio Times for just that sort of thing.
But it was on Radio 3, wasn't it?
One of those ones tucked away. Tim Worthington must cover it in
his book, surely? I'm sure he must be there
somewhere. So Yep.
So John Andropus is a curious Cove because he's worked with so
many great writers. I'm not saying he's not a great
writer, but just in terms of names that people know, like
Spike, of course, like Galton and Simpson.
Or at least did he write with just Ray?
He wrote. With Ray, after Alan Simpson
retired and became a became a restaurant critic or something
like that, whereas Ray Galton just loved to write every day.
So he carried on. And yeah, so Ray obviously liked
to have somebody to collaborate with.
So he he worked with John Entropus.
So I remember late 1980s they had a play on down the road here
at Theatre Cluid and it was called When Did You Last See
Your Trousers? And I can't remember a huge
amount about it, but yeah, I remember going on to see it
well. He wrote with Johnny Spade, of
course, as well, and people like Talbert Rothwell and Norman
Hudis and the the Carry On writers.
And he's kind of written with with a lot of big names.
And of course he was very much part of it.
That whole ALS, yeah. Very much.
I mean, he's one of the first people who arrive to associate
the London scripts when they set this, this writers thing up in
the mid 50s and he turns up and he's only about 21 years old,
isn't he, when he turns up. In fact, one reason why we're
doing this, of course, is he was 21 years then, he is now.
How old is he? Tied?
He's 92, isn't he? July this year, so 2025.
John Entrebus was born 2nd of July, 1933.
So by a process of mathematics, it's his 92nd birthday.
Born in 1933, the year Hitler became German Chancellor, the
year King Kong with Faye Ray was released. 1933 is so long ago.
It's the year Joan Collins was born.
Also Michael Caine, Yoko Ono. They're all born in 1933.
Basically everyone born in 1933 is still alive.
It's an incredible everyone. Everybody, at least at the time
of recording. It'd be terrible if they all go
in between now. Oh, it'll be a tribute to them.
Tribute. Hopefully not.
Hopefully not, but it is. It's an an incredible age.
But yeah, so he's he's like the youngster at Associated London
Scripts and he comes in and the other thing I should say that
I'm going to refer to as we speak today, I have got a
wonderful book by John and it is called Surviving Spike Milligan.
And it is, it's a book he published, I suppose soon after
Spike died trying to cash in. But yeah, A Voyage Through the
Mind and Mirth of the Master Goo.
And I think it's a really nice book.
And it's not a biography of Spike, you know, like there were
a few Spike biographies out there.
It's not like that. It's not a kind of birth to
death thing. But for me it's it's wonderful
because it's it's like John sort of taking you into this world of
associated London scripts and what it was like to go in there
in the 1950s and just really kind of evoking that world.
So, you know, it's a lovely book and get the impression that he
goes in there and he's 21 and obviously he's very, very good
to get in there. Because for my money, you know,
as we, as we were saying last time when we talked about
Associated London Script, they have a few people who come in.
Johnny Spate is the one that they all come always rave about.
John Angeman says he was a Stalinist, wasn't he?
That's right, even. After Stalin and died when all
these terrible crimes were coming out.
But no, he was very into all that, wasn't he?
But yeah, so I think he shares an office with Johnny Spate at
first. I think he talks about this in
the in the interview about. I mean, he gets there and he,
you know, Johnny Spate is out at lunch, of course, having a
drink. And he just starts typing.
John starts kind of working on whatever script it is rather
than thinking, oh, better wait till Johnny comes back and I'll
start writing the script for him.
Now he talks about Johnny. Johnny Spate's first joke was
for Edmundo Ross, and his first joke ever on the radio was snow,
Snow, Quick, quick snow. I mean, you know, those were the
days when you could launch a career on on something like that
and. A few that's better than my
material a few years. Later, Johnny Spate was driving
around in a Rolls Royce. Snow, snow, quick, quick snow.
And Mando Ross, of course, the star of Mr. Ross and Mr. Race.
And maybe that with Ray Ellington and Mando Ross and Ray
Ellington. The point I was making was just
that John Andrews is my favorite of all those other writers who
come in to to associate the London scripts.
I mean Terry Nation as well. But John entrepreneur, some of
us thought is very interesting because, you know, I knew we'd
written the bed sitting room spike because I had that.
And then the other things were there was there was the Milligan
preserved LP. So I got that.
You've spoken about the podcast, but there's a Little John
Entropist sketch on that. Actually, that was my favorite
sketch on that, on that, on that LP.
Hit Parade. Hit Parade.
How did this hitting hobby start?
Well, it was quite similar really.
See when I would retired from the coatworker at Neesden, I've
got time on me and see and not to mention recreation.
Recreation. I told you not to mention that.
Oh, I'm sorry. When I was sitting in the front
garden on the wall and I had my half hour off with Bert.
With Bert. That's me.
You need to help me, I said. When I your name.
No, Sir. Your Lisa.
It's my story, Sir. I told it.
Now I'm walking down the road and I'm pondering on this and I
see an old lady coming up toward me.
And as she approached, suddenly I thought it.
Wallet. Wallet.
Down she went. And I'd started my new hobby.
I see. Well, I mean, didn't anybody try
to stop you? Yes, Sir.
Yes. Yeah.
Park official. Didn't he object?
No, I am too, Sir. Well, I was well satisfied.
I mean, that was too on the first day.
That's quite a good start, I thought.
Especially in the points system I work out.
He's quite sort of Peter Cook like in that, isn't he?
And but of course, 1961, it's Peter Cook is only just getting
going, isn't He's from young, but maybe it seemed to be on the
Fringe, I don't know. He isn't.
You know what? When I was listening to
dinosaurs, Yeah. There's an element of that,
yeah. But also also I was getting, I
was getting a David Welliams Survive film from John Andrews.
Well, Betty. 'S never been compared to David
Walliams before. We're not going to go through
his whole life but but he came from quite sort of lofty
beginnings. He was a Sandhurst he was at.
Sandhurst, his dad was in the army, so he sort of felt he had
that in common with Spike. The interesting thing is now,
because John Antrebus used to seem so young compared to Spike,
but now Antrebus is still with us, There's only actually 15
years between him and Spike, isn't that?
But yeah, so because Spike's dad was in the military in India,
John Entrevis's dad was was in the military here.
So I think he was born, say he was born at Woolwich Arsenal or
something. He was born in Woolwich.
And yeah, he goes to Sandhurst. And when?
We were at Sandhurst, we used to rush from the dining room to
catch the latest episodes of of the Goon show.
And I then I didn't know that I would one day at least write a
couple of them with, with Spike and continue writing Goon humour
with him on and off, you know, through the years.
So there you are. But I was determined to be
famous at something I thought I might when I left Santos, I
thought I might be a famous fisherman.
So I went to Brixham to go on the trawlers, but they didn't
have one available for me and I didn't have the, the Weddington
boots, the long boots. So I, I cut and run and I came
back to London and decided to be a famous writer instead and
famous comedian. But it took days, I tell you,
days to achieve it. And he?
Talks about it a bit in the interview I did with him about
how he he discovered he didn't want to kill people.
So he leaves Sandhurst and eventually he ends up at at
Associated London Scripts. And I think it's, was it via
Bill Kerr's mother-in-law or something?
Is that it or Bill Kerr's mother?
No. His mother or or his?
Was it his mother-in-law? I'm not sure it was one of.
Those anyway. Some someone, a lady, related in
some respect to Bill Kerr. Yeah.
Oh, right. So I suppose from the from his
landlady put him in touch with Bill Kerr.
Bill Kerr puts him in touch with Ray and Allen and I think he
wrote a kind of, you know, trial sort of Hancock script.
I mean, you know, that's sort of test Hancock script.
And so that's what got him in. And you do get the impression
that, you know, especially reading the surviving Spike
Milligan book, you know, that Spike has quite a soft spot for
him. If you look on the Wikipedia
entry of John it, but it says Spike didn't like him.
I don't think that's true at all.
I don't know he's popped out, but that seems.
Yeah. But it's foolish.
To be fair, yeah, I'm fair. He he was very close to Larry
Stevens, wasn't he? Spike as well?
And yeah. And then he wasn't.
Yeah. Well, I think, you know, don't
take something that Spike says on one day as being like the
definitive word. Here are this is how the book
starts. This is his book Surviving
Spike. There was Spike, there was me,
then there was me and Spike. There was history.
There was war. There was Spike as a soldier.
There was me as a schoolboy, Then there was me and Spike
writing together. It's also written this slightly
poetic sort of way and. Yeah, listeners, I must point
out, by the way, I do apologize, but because of my workload and
whatnot, I wasn't able to find the time to read this.
Book, don't worry. Neither have I, don't worry
about that. So I've I've had to put the the
burden on Mike. No, not at all.
No, no, it's, it's, yeah, I mean, it's difficult to get hold
of this book. This book was actually
recommended to me. Wait for this.
It was recommended to me by Dennis Nord of all people.
So that's, that was good. Yeah.
Because it was when we were doing the Associated London
Scripts programme. And I think Dennis just really
loved this book because he just brought those times back.
So he said, oh, we've got to get this.
And I have my copy here signed to Mike.
This book cures trench foot. Best wishes.
John Andrebus. So that's that's very nice.
It's signed by John. Well, I've not had it since
since I got this book. So I had my bed bedsitting room.
I had the Milligan preserved LP. And then the next thing my dad
came home one day and he got a record he borrowed off someone.
And it was Muses with Milligan, which was ATV series Milligan
had done in the, I guess, the early 60s, and he had a lot of
kind of poets on it. Charles Causley, John Bechman,
Kingsley Amis, all these people. Robert Graves, of course, he's
great mates with. Was he?
Stephen Spender was on it. That's a great mix, Milligan and
Steve Limender. The LP, though, doesn't have any
of those people. It's just Milligan doing his own
pose. But there's one again.
There's one thing, which is John Entropus story Chickens, which
is a strange little story, but yeah, brilliant.
What is it about anthropists that attracted Spike, or that
made Spike want to work with him on such a regular occurrence?
I don't know. It's interest, I suppose,
because he's younger. So there's that.
And he's he is somebody who's kind of sort of really in tune
with Spike. I guess there's all these kind
of details in in the book, you know, all these moments where
John comes into the office. And I think it's Pam Virtue,
who's Beryl Virtue's sister. And she's the receptionist now.
And so you can't go up there now, John, because, you know,
Spike's not seeing anybody today.
But then John will go up and this happens again and again.
He's the one person that Spike will see.
And they sit down and sometimes Spike will send him out for some
jammed doughnuts, which is the thing that they show on the
front of the book. There's a jam doughnut with
sailing across the sea with a little kind of Spike Milligan
sail sticking out of the top of the out of the jam doughnut.
So this this seemed to help. I don't know if there's any kind
of study of this. You know, if you're, if you're
suffering from whatever it is bipolar or whatever it is.
That's if you have a lot of kind of Big Sugar rush, this will
kind of cheer you up or something.
But anyway. But there, there's there's a
story I read somewhere, kind of bittersweet story about Milligan
and Anthropus at ALS, and it just speaks volumes about Spike,
really. Spike noticed that even into
Anthropus's office at ALS and saw there was a goldfish in a
bowl That's. Right.
He does talk about this in the book.
Yeah, and it was not being well looked after.
And, and yes, there'd been two. There'd been three of them
originally. Two of them had died.
Yeah. And Spike went off anyway.
And then Anthropus went out, you know, for a pint at lunchtime
with probably Johnny Spate. And when he came back, the, the
goldfish and the goldfish bowl had gone.
And it turned out that Spike had taken it, got a taxi to London
Zoo. That's right, taking the
goldfish. And even though he was busy
doing, you know, writing goon shows and whatnot.
And then eventually Spike turns up back at the office empty
handed and John says, where's the goldfish?
And Spike said they had to put it to sleep and was was almost
sorrowful about it and then went into his office and shut the
door and no one saw him again for the rest of the day.
That's. It isn't it?
Yes. Now that's quite.
He does tell that story in the book.
And yeah, just, I think he, you know, he was on the deadline as
well as Spike, so he didn't have time to do this at all, but goes
up to London Zoo to try and save the goldfish.
But there's all these kind of interesting little details in
this book, you see? But Spike seems to see John as a
kindred spirit, and he just seems to really care about him.
And he says things became more difficult later.
But he says, you know, at the beginning, beginning of his
career, when he was young, everything felt easy, you know,
back then. Yeah.
And there's a very early, we get a very early glimpse, early
glimpse of John Entropus actually in one of the few
remaining fragments of show called Fred.
Yeah. Or is it?
Son of Fred, I'm not sure which. I think is a show called Fred
which John Entropus has seen on screen and now.
Dear viewers, for a tale of adventure so old it cannot fail
to bore you all. Ladies and gentlemen, The Count
of Monte Carlo, Part 1, by John Entropus, BB.
Yeah. So he mentions that Milligan
isn't involved in the writing of the first series, is that right?
So which one is the first one? Is that is the first?
Weekly. Is it weekly?
Yeah. And then you've got spikes.
Spike says, you know, you can't do this kind of humor on
television, and then he realises it's quite popular.
Suddenly Spike is involved. But yes, it's a big sort of
associated London Scripts effort, isn't it?
With all writers and all these people.
Yes, yeah, yeah, there's also the April the 8th show, which is
fascinating because I we've discussed, I've discussed this
on Goon pod relatively recently. Yeah, can't remember which
episode but if people want to go back but it's the one where
Sellers gets pissed off with and.
Goes and tears up the the scrolling credit at the.
End and goes on about Tom Sloan, him and his bleeding liniment.
Yeah, another interesting detail, it says that in Spikes
car he always has cash lying around on the floor of the car,
coins over the floor of his Mini.
All these glimpses of Spikes day-to-day life.
That's just what I found fascinating about this because,
you know, this is your way in. You can live with Spike through
this book. You know, it's just what I
wanted just to, to go into this world.
And also the experience of being in a car with Spike, you know,
never mind going up to London Zoo with the goldfish, the
experience of being driven around in a car with Spike.
And of course, well. Just just ask George Martin.
Who had to drive all the way up from Yeah, that would have been
an experience from what's London up to Yorkshire, Leeds.
Or was it Leeds for his? Well, the.
Leeds is Yorkshire it is. Indeed.
Yorkshire, yes, Yeah. Because of course, once he's out
amongst traffic, other drivers are likely to upset him.
Yeah. So Spike gets upset by these
other drivers around him and he speeds up after a car, somebody
who's kind of offended him. And John nervously asks Spike to
can you go a bit slower? So then he starts going very,
very, very slowly in the middle of the traffic.
Can you imagine this? Anyway?
But yeah, he jumps around, you see in the book.
So it's just not not a sort of straight kind of, you know, this
happened, then this happened. It's it's it's sort of like his
memories coming back to him when he sort of realizes, oh, it's
Sheila in the car. This is kind of much later from
his early kind of memories of going into associated London
script, London scripts. But yeah, again, I think that's
kind of a great way of writing the book.
It's all in these kind of little cobbits, all these little
scenes, these little these moments.
How much? Accuracy.
Do you ascribe to books like this in terms of.
Well, this is the interesting thing, the vagary.
'S a memory and yeah, well. That's the thing.
Because then you get onto like where he goes for lunch with the
goons. And this is just very
interesting because it's so kind of well remembered if this is
actually what happened. He does sort of scenes in the
book, like the day that he's recording the the Spun Plague,
which is so that's the first of the gun shows he does with
Spike. Is it?
Yes. So I think it's during a period
when they've sort of got this arrangement that Mary Stevens
and Maurice Wiltshire are writing it one week and then the
following week it's Spike and then it's Mary Stevens and
Morris Wiltshire again and then back to Spike.
And then a couple of those. He gets John Entropus in to help
him, but he's at the the spawn play recording.
And John in the book does this thing.
How do you remember this? So he has a little scene where
he's gone to a hypnotist to bring back all the details of
this event. So he tells, you know, the story
of how the the hypnotist sort of puts him under and, you know,
brings back all the memories of that evening.
So really. Yeah.
So. So again, he's an imaginative,
interesting writer. So let me see.
Let's just find a little bit of this.
So the hypnotist, as you approach the theatre, imagine
you are. Is it raining me?
No. But the sky is leaking.
Hypnotist. Good.
You're in the theatre. You're saying hello to
everybody. You say hello to Peter Sellers.
What does he reply? Me.
Hello, Johnny. Hypnotist.
Good. You say hello to Harry Secombe.
What does he reply? Me Hello, Neddy.
Stand well back to avoid falling into conversation.
Thank you, Hypnotist. Good.
You say hello to Spike Milligan. What does he reply?
Me. We'll never get these sound
effects right. And you know, it's interesting
that you know, whether this is completely exactly what
happened, but it is giving you a flavour of it and is, you know,
it is evoking this. Oh yeah.
Then we've got this bit about Peter Sellers suit.
What is Peter Sellers wearing? The suit, The goon saved up for
one and it was Peter's turn to wear it.
He had it for the 1st 12 years. How was Harry Secom dressed?
With difficulty, says John. It was before they had Oxfam
shops. He used to go up to people in
the street and say how much do you want for that pullover?
He didn't know you could buy clothes in shops.
He thought they were issued by the quartermaster Sergeant and
he didn't know where he lived. So Harry Secom he's talking
about, Yes. So this is in 1958.
Harry Secom didn't know where to buy clothes, so he had a wife,
Harry. Secom, his wife and children at
this point, Family, yeah. But it's it's a point.
I've heard him repeat that in interviews.
Yeah. But you know, you do get these
insights into these recordings. And where's the?
There's a. There's a thing, I don't know if
you've got this, and I'm sorry if I'm pre empting something
you're going to say In the Humphrey Carpenter, Oh yeah,
Milligan biography, he talks about Anthropus recalling the
tension between Milligan and Sellers during the rehearsal for
the spawn plague. That's right.
He does. He says this.
And he says this must be this
part of the hypnotist stuff he's recalling.
He says it's quoted, Anthropus is quoted in the in the
Carpenter book saying we have a read through.
It goes well, everyone laughs a lot, then Peter says is it funny
and Spike says I bloody well hope so and nobody talks to each
other for half an hour. Then we ever run through back on
stage and the band is laughing so everyone gets their
confidence back. The.
Scene Doctor Seagoon's National Health waiting room.
Good morning, patience. Sorry to be so late, but I had
to stop for a three month holiday in Paris.
Shall I send the first patient Indel?
Yes, darling. Remember the rich ones first?
National Health's last virtual. You first drop them.
Turn. Hey, what's the trouble with
you? I got the shoe.
Shoe. I got a touch of the birds,
mate. Get away, you shoe birdie.
I said you grey in no time. We're lazy.
Getting the bird is a common complaint.
Yes, I saw you last week. A Coventry mate.
You do all right for fruit, don't you?
It's all right. It's all lies, folks.
Lies have a great success. I'll tell you why I was paid off
last week. Well, how can I cure these
naughty birdies? My.
Well, we'll soon have you. Well, matey, just wear these
bird cages hanging on your legs and take this bird line three
times a second. Oh, lovely.
They. All seem like father figures to
John. There's this odd bit with Peter
Sellers and this. What's he an estate agent
called? Alf Slin or Alf Sline?
Alf Slin spelt SLY. Double northeast, Peter said.
This is John Antronus. Alf Slin's eyes widened.
I nearly married your mother, he said.
I stared at the balding, bespectacled gentleman in front
of me. Yes, my mother had told me I
could have married Alf Slim, but I decided to wait for your dad
to get back from India. I could have been your father,
said Alf, standing on the pavement, staring at me in
wonder. I didn't quite see how I would
have been someone else. It was a close shave, said Alf.
He was questioning my very existence.
Peter enjoyed every moment of this encounter.
When we drove off his car, he repeated in perfect mimicry, I
could have been your father. Then giggled all the way home.
He kept repeating it to Anne, his wife.
I could have been your father till she got bored.
The funny thing is when Peter said it, he looked like Alf
Slyn. To think he could have been my
father, that's sort of extraordinary.
Now why? Have we not heard Sellers in
some interview subsequently or even in a goon show later on
doing? I could have been your father.
Yeah, yeah. But yeah, that's the sort of
theme running right through this book.
You know, John is like, you know, this is another reason why
why, you know, Spike gets on so well with John.
It is a bit like he's, you know, he's comedy son, you know?
He. Says to him at one point, you
know, you're, you're the only other genius here, you know, at
Associated London Scripts with Ray Ray and Allen and Johnny
Spade and Eric Sykes and everyone.
Spike accuses Peter Sellers of having borrowed one of his books
and not giving it back. At rehearsal one goon show
Sunday, Spike was distracted fluffing his lines.
Peter Sellers looked concerned. Peter, what's upsetting you
Spike? Spike I've lost the battle for
Spion cop. That's what's upsetting me.
Peter laughing. That was lost years ago.
Spike my book you fool. You wouldn't borrowed it because
you're semi illiterate like the company.
You keep your famous friends, Peter.
Princess Margaret reads a lot, Spike.
She doesn't need to read. It's like doing her own laundry
and cleaning her own shoes. She'd get a servant to read her
books. Peter no longer laughing.
Oh yes, well you're jealous of my friends because you can't
keep any. I hope you never find that book.
The battle, Battle for Spion Cop.
And I hope you lose a lot more books, Spike.
I hope you lose a library full of books and wait for this.
This is the kicker. Spike's curse on Peter Sellers,
Spike. And I hope you lose your wife,
your money, your health, and your mind.
Oh, Peter comes back. Then I'd be like you, wouldn't
I, Spike? Except then you'll always be
worse off than me because you've also lost the battle for Spion
Cop. This is a bit like, what's it?
David Baddiel and Rob Newman in the history?
Yeah, it is, isn't it? They didn't speak to each other
for weeks, but the good show recordings did not suffer.
They were too professional for that.
Eventually, Peter gave Spike a present, a copy of The Battle to
Spion Cop. Thank you, said Spike.
Now I've got 2 copies of that one.
All I need is a history of Western philosophy and I'll be
very happy. So Peter bought in that as well,
Spike said. I'd still like to know the
bastard who can't be bothered to return my books.
The original copy of The Battle to Spionkop had been returned to
Milligan anonymously. Anonymously.
The plain package that that had arrived through the post wore
AW1 postmark. So the Milligan had searched
through his address book to see who lived there.
So it's incredible, isn't it? Yeah.
So this big rift of this borrowing of this book.
So yeah. So.
Jeez. I'd love to think that was true.
Yeah, the basis of that is true, even if not every kind of word
of the dialogue is true. But still probably, Yeah, it was
probably a huge bust up, wasn't it?
Yeah. I mean, the the the other one is
the the bedsitting room. I mean, hopefully one day if you
ever have me back on with never Speak properly, we can maybe
talk about the the play of the bedsitting room.
But John talks about, you know, actually getting the bed sitting
room on, which is kind of very interesting because of course,
John's great ambition in all of this.
He's having huge success as a writer on, you know, all the
things he's doing, Frankie Howard and the Army game.
And he does the film with Anthony Newley.
He works on Sellers 1. He does with Ray and Allen.
Wrong arm of the law. Wrong arm.
Of the law great film so he's doing all that stuff so that's
all great. So I think he's making a lot of
money from that but he's got this hankering to be a
playwright and have a play on at the Royal Court and you know he
talks in the book. You know the main thing he's
known for I guess is the bed sitting room he'd made it with
with his friend Spike. He's sort of wondering, you
know, whether it's a bit of a both the blessing and the curse,
really, because, you know, this this is an idea that John had
for this play and. But Spike sort of takes it over,
doesn't he? The play comes out and is
credited to Spike and John Entrebus.
And of course, you know, you think, well, they could have
done more after that, couldn't they?
And yeah, yeah. So he has this idea, which I
think is a really interesting idea about, you know, the, the,
the guy who thinks he's turning into a bedsitting room and he
does turn into a bedsitting room.
His psychiatrist has moved into the bedsitting room.
But then he can't cure him because then, you know, if he
cures him and turns him back from being a bedsitting room,
then he'll be homeless, which is sort of, you know, yeah, that's
a neat idea, a crazy idea, but it sort of gets a bit swallowed
up, I think, in all the kind of spikeness that gets added to it.
But that's the idea at the heart of it.
And Spike apparently went round sort of dinner parties and so
on, kind of talking through this idea.
And the Royal Court had been interested in in doing
something. And also there was the Mermaid
Theatre which was run by Bernard Miles, who you know this
character who crops up in. One or two goon shows or is he
just in the one? One goon show 1 goon.
Show so he's a friend of theirs anyway.
But he works for Spike a lot, yeah.
Obviously so Mile Bernard Marsa wanted to play from Spike.
Spike said he was too busy but then he says 01 of our lads,
John Entrebus has got, you know, this thing.
Then there's another lot get in touch with Spike and that is a
group called Tomorrow's Audience.
So do you know about them? So this is, yeah, a bunch of
bunch of students wanting to make it in sort of comedy
theatre. And it was Richard Ingrams and
Willie Rushton and all these people.
So before, you know, they're so heavily involved in Private Eye.
So tomorrow's audience, this is the name of their theatre group.
They get in touch and they ask Spike if he if he has got a one
act play that they could perform.
So Spike says to John Andreas, OK, let's write up this idea
that you've got for these lads. So they write up the Bed Sitting
room. So it's performed as a one act
play at the Marlow Theatre, Canterbury in February 1962.
This is the thing I was telling you the other day.
This was a staggering thing. The original Lord Faulkner in
the company that played as the tomorrow's audience people in
the Marlow Theatre in Canterbury, it was Gordon
Honeycomb. He played Lord Fornham and
Gordon Honeycomb. For those who don't know, he was
a very famous ITV News reader for years on on, Yeah, on the
telly in this country. But yeah, so he's he's Lord
Fornham. And it's very confusing as well
because in the play script, the characters referred to as
Pontius Keck or something, isn't it?
Which is the is the psychiatrist character.
Why? And then he becomes Martin
Buells or Buells Martin. So anyway, that's.
Pules Pules Martin in the film. Oh, is.
It. Yeah, yeah.
I think Barry Humphries referred to him as Martin Buells, and
he's Captain Martin Buells, which makes it more confusing
because he's meant to be the psychiatrist anyway.
So that's Willie Rushden in this original production, and the
director was John Duncan, not John Junkan.
John Duncan. John Duncan.
Who become the assistant producer of That was the week
there was so. So we yeah, all these bunch of
people have come out of Oxford. I guess Willie Rushdon was
always very impressive to me because like Tim Key with the
Cambridge Footlights, Tim Key was in the Cambridge Footlights
but was not actually at Cambridge at the time.
Willie Rushton was in the Oxford Review in the early 60s, but he
never went to any university so he was just friends with and so
on. So he just sort of, they would
get him up. Of course he became like quite a
big star. But yeah, he was in the Oxford
Review despite not being at the university.
So this bunch, they put this one act play on at Canterbury and
Kenneth Tyne at the Great Theatre Critic, He's going to go
and see it, but Spike begs him not to go.
He says it's a work in progress, but he goes along.
And at this time, Private Eye had just started, but he was
edited originally not by Richard Ingrams.
It was edited by someone else. I think it was Christopher
Booker originally, wasn't it? Anyway, so at this point, you
know, Ingrams is just trying to make it as a as an actor anyway.
So Spike has begged Kenneth Tyler not to go and review this
play, but he goes anyway and he gives it a rave review.
So suddenly this play, this one act play is news now.
Richard Ingrams and all this lot, they are, you know, they're
sort of ping their hopes on this thing that this is going to make
their name. They've put it on.
It's a big success, you know. So now, you know, they want to
sort of carry on with it and take it forward.
But you see, you have this bit of controversy now because now
that this has got into the news with Kenneth Tynan reviewing it,
Bernard Miles back at the Mermaid Theatre hears about this
production in Canterbury and says, oy, that's the play I
commissioned. I want that play.
So John Entropus's story, even in the introduction to the bed
sitting room, is that he wrote the play with Spike at the
Mermaid Theatre, with Spike as Ben Gunn.
Because yeah, this was the thing that Bernard Miles kept cutting
off at the Mermaid was Treasure Island.
And he'd already done it sort of back in the 1950s, Bernard Miles
would play Long John Silver. So Bernard Miles had this kind
of West Country accent, didn't he?
So yeah, so he plays Long John Silver, but they revive it as a
sort of Christmas show. So Jamie Muir the other week was
just saying on Blue Sky that he remembered going to see Treasure
Island with Spike at the Mermaid Theatre.
So I presume it must have been the 1961 because Jamie Frank
Muir's son there, presumably it was Frank and his sister Sally
and Jamie's memory was that Spike had given Jamie's sister
Sally a cigar and she must have been about nine years old or
something at the time. Spike the great anti smoking
figure gives this child a cigar and says you can smoke this on
your 16th birthday. So she actually saved it until
her 16th birthday and she smoked it on her 16th birthday and then
sent in the ashes or something. Anyway, so but you see, pay
attention in this story. Is it 1961 coming up to
Christmas? That is when Spike is in
Treasure Island at the Mermaid Theatre.
Now, John Entropus's version of this story is always that it's
like the Richard Ingram's version of this one act thing.
The bed sitting room has been and gone and then they kind of
write it up into a two act play. That's when he's writing with
Spike is, you know, Spike is playing Ben Gunn in Treasure
Island. So he remembers, you know, was
he writing it with Spike or was he, you know, Spike was staying
in character as Ben Gunn and he had his dressing room all done
up as grotto for all the children who came in and was
giving cigars out to all of them.
I think anyway, this doesn't quite fit with what John's
saying. So the version that they wrote
at the Mermaid Theatre in in Spike's dressing room must be
the one act version because it's the end of 1961 and the Richard
Ingram's Willie Rushton bed sitting room is on the following
February in 1962. Do you see what I'm saying?
So it's the one act trying to. So it's the original one act
version of the bed sitting room. Spike and John Antropus have
written it in Spike's dressing room at the Mermaid Theatre,
which might, you know, Bernard Miles might argue that gives me
more ownership because it's written on my property.
So I want that play. Anyway, That is essentially what
happens tomorrow's audience with Willie Rushdon, Gordon Honeycomb
and Richard Ingram's. They get dropped and Spike and
John carry on working on the play and it's expanded into a
two act thing and it gets put on at the Mermaid Theatre.
Yes, the interesting. Thing is, the original cast is
Graham Stark as Fuels Martin or punctures CAC whatever he is,
and Valentine Dial is Lord Fortnum so yeah.
And Spike is in there as as Mate, the roving traffic warden.
Yeah, so entropist, not fancy writing apart for himself.
Yeah, I. Wonder about that.
I wonder about that. But anyway, he didn't.
Opening opening night at the Mermaid.
In the audience are Peter Sellers and Harry Secombe.
So they attend the premiere. Yeah.
So you think you know that's. That's where Peter Sellers meets
Janet Scott. We see it Ryan's that night has
a. Brief, brief fling with her.
Brief fling. With Thora Heard's daughter.
Lovely. Yeah.
So you do start to think, well, you know, could you have this
play with, you know, not Valentine, darling, Graham
Stark. Are they actually standing in
for, you know, Harry and Peter and and the other thing that's
sort of interesting? Yeah.
But hang on, hang on, hang on. Harry would have to play.
Well, whichever way round it is, Martin.
Yeah, I guess. Yeah, I.
Guess sellers. Sellers would be more likely.
To be Lord Fordham maybe. But anyway, whichever way round
it is, or even if it's not Harry, but it's, you know, it is
maybe half is. He's thinking of Peter Sellers.
And so you've got a kind of Peter Sellers standing.
Not putting Graham Stark down here, but, but yeah, no, there's
another big bust up here, which is absolutely incredible between
Spike and Graham Stark. And Graham, John says in the
book, had been very supportive of Spike's acting because Spike
was feeling unsure, you know, of his abilities to do this on
stage. But then you get this, this
thing. George C Scott and Stanley
Kubrick visit the theatre and they go to see Graham, not
Spike, because of course, what's the film that they are making at
exactly this time? It's Doctor Strangelove Dr.
Strangelove, of course, that is. Filming exactly when the
Bedsitting Room is first shown is first on the Mermaid Theatre
in in London. So interesting.
You know, they're both kind of become, well, they're both sort
of atomic bomb stories, aren't they?
Of course. Yes, they are.
Yes. They are something which is on
our minds once again at present time, strangely enough.
Anyway. So yes, Strangelove begins
filming 3 days before the bed. Sitting room starts with a
mermaid and Spike falls out with Graham Stark.
And of course we don't know exactly why, but he says to
Graham Stark's wife, tell your husband if he comes to the
theatre tonight, I will shoot him.
That's right. I remember that, yeah.
And Audrey Stark was 8 months pregnant apparently.
So anyway, the Starks do not believe this.
But then Spike's wife Paddy turns up in tears saying Spike
has indeed got a gun and meant what he said.
So the Mermaid Theatre then Spike?
The Great Pacifist. Absolutely incredible, isn't it?
So Graham Stark is then barred from the Mermaid Theatre where
he is starring. He's barred for his own safety.
And the understudy has to go on until the play transfers to
whatever it was, the Duke of York's theatre.
And then I think Barry Humphries takes over in the main in that
role. And so John was kind of very
appreciative of Graham Stark in the book because he says, John
says he doesn't know the half of the story himself.
He doesn't know quite why they had this falling out, but for
the good of the production, Graham didn't leak the story or
take any action. You know which other?
OK, well. Sellers gets married to Brit
Ecland in 64 Yeah. So this is a year before that,
yeah. And Graham and David Lodge were
joint best men. Yep.
Was was Spike at the wedding? Surely he was.
I don't. Know, but I couldn't tell you.
But I'm just trying to think when would Spike have
subsequently worked? Was Graham Stark He'd have, I
mean, he must have rubbed shoulders of Graham Stark.
Oh, I'll tell you what, the magnificent 7 deadly sins,
Graham Stark directed that Spikes in that.
So there must have been some sort of reconciliation.
To God, it is sort of tantalising.
You know, how much is it true? And you know what was it all
about? What caused these these
problems? But.
Another thing though that, and I don't want to dwell on this, of
course, but Amthropus himself was, was very openly talked, has
very openly talked about his, his, his struggle with the
bottle indeed in the 60s indeed. Yeah, he's got a very good
memory for somebody drinking heavily because you.
Remember that story that Dick Van Dyke tells that he he, he
made, I don't know, four or five films towards the end of the
60s? He doesn't remember any of them.
Yeah. At the same time, I think, yeah,
there are issues like that because at one point in the
book, John phones up Peter Sellers in 1981 and has a chat
with him. Peter Sellers phones him up in
1981, which is unlikely to have happened for the the reasons of
death. Yeah, but Benteen?
Benteen spoke to Sellers about 12 years later.
Maybe that's what he was. He was Michael Benteen, but
yeah, the there's this other event isn't there, which I told
you about. I don't know if you found the
clip when he goes on late night lineup where we have a, a, an
extra guest with us who's just leaving.
Would you be kind of absolutely please, please run leaving the
studio. Why?
Oh, John, come on, we'd like to talk about.
Comedy. Oh, I am a.
Comedy writer. One of them, John.
Call it for God's sake, love, you know how have you even on
the screen yet? I thought I found the.
Right to be on. Well, we're on, as we'll be
saying, as we'll be pointing out later on.
Comedy. Comedy is a serious business.
We never thought it was quite as serious as all that.
Anyway to? Continue if you let me, we're
on. You know, it's one of these
terrible kind of panel things on a kind of BBC art show from the
60s and they're they're well, it's Dennis Toohey is the
presenter. He's from January 1966.
So, you know, it's just interesting.
John Entropus has had all this success.
But yeah, he's hit the bottle. So, you know, he is quite open
about, you know, the problems he's had.
And there's this clip where Dennis Toohey is interviewing
this panel of these writers, Marty Feldman and Johnny Spater
on there, and Ian Le Frenay, and there's some other people on
there as well. Isn't that?
Richard Waring, Richard. Waring.
That's right. Duncan Wood.
Yeah. The producer.
Yeah, Yeah. And, and just to, just to set
the scene. So they're not, they're not
necessarily a panel. They're, they're sort of sort of
horseshoe formation, yeah, seating, yeah, arrangement.
And it's like they're trying to see who can smoke the most
cigarettes in 15. Minutes.
That's right. They're all sitting there
smoking away. John is there at the beginning
and is kind of manhandled off the set because he's he's there
sort of protesting that he should be involved in this, this
as well. And Marty Feldman is saying, oh,
cool it John, for God's sake. And it's, and you say, oh God,
you know what a load of so and so's, you know, because what's
the? What I Right.
This is me all over. Right.
I'm intrigued by what happened before then.
Yeah. As in we we we see only a
glimpse of Ventrebus being being taken off stage.
No it. It upset offset.
It upsets me, this clip because it upsets me in a few ways.
But they must have been there at the BBC having a drink because I
reckon they are all as pissed as John Entropus is.
And, you know, it's people like Johnny Spate who liked a few
drinks, as far as I can make out, who would have been leading
him into this kind of life as well, allegedly so well and.
Johnny and Johnny Spate and Marty Feldman almost have AI
won't say come to blows, but they.
It's the most ridiculous poke faced nonsense that they then go
on to spout. And yours?
Don't laugh. Well, sudden, you know, not
concerned with them, Johnny. Well, I think that's funny.
Yeah, but. You know, if they don't, you
have to do this but. You said you said you liked
marriage, life, love, comedy with listen Johnny, Johnny,
Mighty Mighty Johnny come out. It's great.
Johnny. Comedy with Johnny.
For God's sake, love you know if.
You've ever had it. You'll die, John.
Comedy without an audience just doesn't work.
Love, you know? Comedy depends on the audience.
Love, you know nobody loved it. Oh, come on, love, you know it
doesn't. Matter about the studio
audience. It matters if you have a studio
audience. It matters about the minute.
It's a criteria. It's okay.
You say this, John. You write the damn thing.
You get out there and perform it.
Love. It matters if the audience,
Patrick Campbell but you know, if you're doing a bit a comedy,
bit love and the audience laugh. No, wait a minute.
So listen, love. If you're doing comedy bit and
the audience laugh, this condition is the way you perform
the next bit and. What has another wrong place?
Also OK, but. If you're going to have an
audience, love, you have to work too.
We're talking about Yeah, All right, forget the audience.
Fine. All I will say, as long as you
have, as long as you have the audience.
You have the audience, no? For God's sake, no, only no, but
as long as no, John. Just has as much right to be
there as any of them. So I just say, you know, they
should have just got an extra chair.
We could have joined in so. So do you think the theory is
that he was going to be part of this group, but he just couldn't
handle his drink and what I. Assumed was that he was just
there with his friends having a drink and then they're going to
do this. And because he's, you know, sort
of almost comatose by this point, he decides to tag along.
Goes in front of the cameras. Yeah, no, I I'm not sure he was
he was he was booked for it. But rest are just saying, just
dreadful, you know, And it's such an awful sort of up his own
backside, sort of serious kind of discussion of comedy.
And you know, Charlie Spake would be, well, Marty Feldman's
making stroking. Yes, a lot of chin is.
Stroking. Marty Feldman's making a very
good point, but you know, comedy has to make somebody laugh.
Charlie Spake doesn't seem to be bothered about that at all.
And no. As would be proven, as would.
Be Proven is like everything I've ever seen him do.
But you know, yes, it is partly character.
And yeah, that's the big thing of what Johnny Spake's scripts
were about, wasn't it? And but, yeah, it's good to have
some jokes in there. And if you've got a studio
audience in there, you want you want to make make left, don't
you? But I think his friends there,
Marty Feldman, Johnny Space and whoever could have shown a
little bit more compassion towards him rather than just,
you know, oh, call it John, get over it sort of thing.
And I think if Spike had been there, he would have shown that
sort of compassion to it. Absolutely.
Just. A brilliant young writer and,
you know, it's just very sad that that's how he's being seen
on television, you know, and no, no one says a word in his
favour, you know, to explain who this is and what he's done.
Because the bed sitting room was a huge, huge success.
And, you know, and then like I said, that is difficult because
it's attributed to Spike and John entrepreneurs, even though
it starts off entirely as John's idea, but just gets kind of
covered in layers of like Spike stuff.
And then Spike doesn't seem to get around to ever writing
another play with him. They try to write another play
called The Incurables, don't they?
So John had written a novel. So I think by about 1968, he
has, you know, he gets over the drink, never touches the drop
again. So and you know.
When I met him, you know, it's brilliant.
It's really good and just kind of very dedicated to the work.
That's another thing which comes out in the book, which is just
how kind of, you know, Spike is just just works very hard, just
constantly knocking stuff out, which again, I, I find an
inspiring thing. You know, he's not sitting
around boozing with the rest of them like that.
Spike is just, you know, all about the work.
And I think I think John is sort of in that vein as well.
And Spike is always like I say, you know, you've got this theme
of kind of like the rest of them being like his father figures
and Spike being a father figure to him and Peter Sellers going
on about this thing. I could have been your father.
But Spike is always kind of dispensing fatherly advice to
him in the book and sort of saying, you know, you know, you
become very like Johnny Spade. You've been spending too much
time with Johnny Spade and you're always drinking
everything. And you know, you're not so nice
when you being Johnny Spade. You know, you're much better
just being John Entrebus. So, you know, I think that's
something he ultimately comes to terms with.
But then, you know, they try and do this other play, the
Incurables. So I think this must be now he's
kind of sobering up sort of thing.
John starts work on it with Spike because John was actually
talking to Sean Connery of all people, who is going to be in a
film of this story. And it's about a detective
investigating a murder on a ward of incurable patients.
You know, they're all going to die and you think what what is
the point of investigating this murder?
Because they're all condemned anyway?
They're all going to die in this, whatever it is they've
got. But the detective is so kind of
determined to kind of follow this through.
He stays with them and eventually he gets contaminated
with the same disease and he becomes one of the incurables
himself. So again, you know, this is an
interesting idea once once Spike comes on board to write this
with John. Oh, certainly.
It's set in World War 2. It's set in 1940, later to be
known as 1941. And it's about a group of
government scientists who've been working on the prune bomb.
So it's a secret government experiment that goes wrong.
And then the scientists all contract this deadly disease.
And they're they're isolated in the Nissan Hut on the Duke of
Hamilton's estate in Scotland. And then Rudolf Hess parachutes
in seeking an Armistice. You know, so it all goes very
kind of spike. You know, suddenly everything is
during the Second World War. It's not the original idea at
all. Anyway, they get halfway through
it and then halfway through the first act, and then they stop
and the joy has disappeared for Spike.
So he just tells John, you know, just carry on, on with it on
your own. But this is the real tragedy, I
think, for John. He carries on and finishes the
play. But Bernard Miles, who again,
you know, he's going to put this on, but if it's just John
Entrebus, he doesn't want it. So this is kind of
heartbreaking, isn't it? He He says to him, if Spike
don't like it, the dog won't wag its tail.
He says God, But anyway, you know, but John, it's kind of.
It's almost like John was haunted by Spike, or his, or
dogged by even though he loved working with Spike.
He does. Yeah, I mean that his career.
Was so linked to Spike. That's right.
It was almost like, it's like. It's a blessing and a curse.
You know, he reaches the heights, you know, with his
first play and in the most successful thing he ever did.
But he goes on, he writes lots of other plays.
He gets them on at the Royal Court.
So I think, you know, this was huge success.
He has a series of plays on and you know, something very, very
interesting. And unconscious of the fact that
we we can only really scratch the surface of John Andrevas's
work really well, there's. This other moment where John
says he's up in Cambridge and he's directing a musical version
of his play Jonah, and then Spike gets in touch with him and
asks him to come down to London to write a series with him
because he's fallen out with the writer who's going to work on
it. Makes you wonder, what series
was it? And John sort of, you know,
can't come away because he's working on this this play up in
Cambridge. So he's sort of conscious that
there are times when, you know, he's told Spike no as well and
not helped him. And then of course, he works
with Sellers on Fu Manchu film. And of course, you know, you've
spoken about this before, haven't you?
Right at the end of Sellers career and it's I think you sort
of pointed out that it's when the book Book of the Goons comes
out and it's got the Fu Manchu script in it.
And this may be kind of well. Sellers lifts a couple of gags.
Yeah. So it's clearly kind of lifted
from that. So and then Sellers gets John
Anchemist in to help with the script.
So this is a bit like Milligan getting Graham Stark in to be a
kind of, you know, replacement sellers and then falling out
with him, like you'd fall out with the with Sellers.
So yeah, John is brought in and yeah, so John is living in the
tower block, Gentry Point at that point, and he's 19 floors
up and he's got a dog, He's got a house trade.
So it's a long way down to kind of take the dog out, house
trade. But he gets the this is where he
gets the call from Sellers in 1981.
So it wasn't 1981. And it's during this time John's
actual father dies, and John has to go back over to back to
Cumbria to see his dad. He says Sellers could not have
been more solicitous. Sellers is very helpful to him
and nice So. And oh, God, you know,
Entropus's dad's final words. You know, he's boasting to the
nurses as he's dying. You know, my son John is working
in Paris with Peter Sellers, dear.
And then Lynn Frederick arrives in the middle of this and John
loses his office he was working in because Lynn Frederick needs
an office. And they all go out to dinner.
Sellers disappears in the middle of dinner.
They think he's gone to the toilet, but he's just gone.
He's done it again. He's just disappeared.
Lynn is very upset. Oh, yeah, that's it.
Sellers, then, you know, thinks it's all gone so well on this
food. Menchu 1 He tells John.
You know he'll be writing the next Pink Panther film, so you
know John has finally made it. You know this is going to be an
absolute fortune coming in. That Pink Panther film never
comes to be, does it? Well, the sellers had already
written though, before he died with someone else.
The romance of the Pink Panther. Really.
Well, he was going to get, he told John he was going to go,
and he can't go by what Seller says.
But anyway, yeah, you don't see that.
Anyway, that's the end of that because Sellers dies.
But while they're in Paris doing, you know, all this, a
copy of Being There arrives. John sees that.
Just see. Oh, this is an absolute genius
film, you know, Anyway, yeah. And, yeah, he carries on working
with Spike, doesn't he? And the the Milligan papers in
the 1980s and they, they sort of drift apart, I guess.
But then, you know, Spike is gone.
And John carried on working with Ray Galton in sort of later
years. Yeah, step stepped on son in
murder at Oil Drum Lane. That's right.
That's what he was working on when we were doing the then
Howie Stevens St. Or was that the associated loan
description rather at that time anyway, they were doing the kind
of step to revival. So I'm not sure you know how
successful that was. But obviously this was years
after, you know, Harry H Corbett, Wilfred Bramble had
gone. So they had to get kind of
replacement people in. But you know, you think people
would be interested in that, wouldn't you?
It should be on somewhere. Yeah, absolutely.
Sorry, you were going to say
anyway. Oh, right.
Oh, that was the goon. Show the last.
The current series featuring Peter Sellers and he's taking
the Spike Bennigan. Max Geldray and the Orcs are
conducted by Wally Stotts, script by Spike Milligan and
John Andreas announcer Wally Skeet Slade.
Technical. Production throughout the series
was by Bobby J and special effects by Ian Cook and von
Belcher. The program was produced by
Charles Children. John is one of the last
remaining people who stalk the earth.
Who? Have a direct connection with
the goons in terms of that. Is what I was thinking.
He is, I think, the last man standing from Goon Show, The
last person who had any direct creative input into the show
well. I would, I'd kind of include, to
a degree, Dick Lester in the sense that we're not.
In the radio goon show, I'm, I'm thinking the performers, the
writers, musicians, yes. Producers, yeah.
Sound effects men. They all right Yes, ladies in
the. Canteen pouring custard into
Spike Milligan. Socks all gone that.
Didn't happen. Antrebus is the only one still
with us. He's like, it's like he's the
the the less surviving soldier from the First World War.
Yeah. I was in contact with someone
who's relatively close to John Antrebus, who who connects with
him quite regularly to this day. He asked John whether he'd be up
for coming on Goon Pod. This was a couple of years ago
when John was still a sprightly 89 year old probably and and
John was very, very politely. He declined.
He said he just felt he was a bit too old.
It's a shame. For that, he would be great.
Yeah, yeah. I just am looking his his career
and his writing credits are so vast.
Yeah, that we we can barely scratch the surface.
There's just a couple of things he worked on just strike me as
interesting. Yeah.
OK so character he Co wrote the first carry on film he did and
the last Carry on Columbus. Film.
I think he's actually in. Carry On, Columbus.
Well, I covered Carry on Columbus as I was a guest on
someone elses podcast about three years.
Is he not? Actually in it, I don't think
I've ever actually seen. I don't.
Remember, he may have been. It was so long I didn't commit
the film to memory in this little.
Interview that I saw which is online with him somewhere about
the Carry On films that he says he was given the Charles Hawtree
part and. Maybe he was, I don't remember.
It can't. Have been a big part.
Oh yeah. But yes, carry on, carry on,
Sergeant was which was the first one He he Co wrote that with
Norman Hudis. Yeah, see, I've.
Learned how to pronounce Norman Hudis now as well.
I've been saying Norman Hudis all my life.
But I'm sure, probably, I'm sure, I'm sure you're right.
I'm just. Yeah.
You're talking to a man who's watched many a Carry On
television document. Yeah.
So John's career is sort of he starts off doing those Carry on
films and you know, all that kind of business.
And then there's this kind of bit in the middle where he
becomes like a, a playwright and he does the bed sitting room and
all this stuff at the Royal Court and so on through the 70s.
Hitler in Liverpool as well. And then towards the end he goes
back and he does Carry on Columbus.
So it's kind of, you know, interesting circular story and
then, you know. Absolutely.
And then, yeah, he and he, he wrote, he was a right of hire on
things like the Army game, Bootchen Snudge.
Yeah. Sykes Ander, the early Sykes 60s
series, they did a couple of those shows, as you say, wrong
arm of the law, the Sellers film.
The big job that that great film was Sir James and Co Co wrote
that with Tobert Rothwell did he the smart master general and he
he did an episode of or Co wrote an episode of Q5 with Spike and
Neil Shand. What are the?
Dustbin men. Yeah, he.
He does bits for those Milligan sketch shows, doesn't he?
And there's one called It's. Owen colour.
Owen colour, that's right. Yes.
Milligan in spring as well, which you Co wrote with the
Fosbury. There's the Marty Feldman Comedy
Machine as well, with his friend from the drunken appearance on
late night. Yeah, the interesting thing when
Marty Feldman is on late night lineup in 1966, the thing which
occurred to me, of course, is he was not known as a performer at
that point. He's just the writer of Round
the Horn and so on. But yeah, so Marty Film and
there's his own. Seriously.
He has Spike on with him and John Intrus is involved in that
as well. And what's the sketch?
He describes it in the book, but it's about a man sending for a
book about how to save yourself from drowning had to play the
man who was drowning. So he's kind of underwater in
this, you know, whatever it is lake where they filmed it and he
has to kind of Bob up to the surface and get this book and
then take it back down. It's kind of read it and and
learn how to save himself from drowning.
You know the postman comes over in a rowing boat and delivers it
to him. Something but getting.
Away from Milligan, I'm trying to trying to edge this away from
Milligan as we as we end the conversation, because I want to
try and represent John entropism in his own right.
He did all these plays, like you say, like Hitler and Liverpool
and something called the illegal immigrant Spike would have liked
that. And one Orange for the Baby at
the Gate Theatre, Notting Hills. All these plays.
And then he writes an episode of the US sitcom Too close for
Comfort in 1985. I didn't even.
Notice that? That's interesting, isn't it?
How do you get that now? Now that is AUS version of the
British TV sitcom Keeper in the Family, which was Robert
Gillespie as the cartoonist remember.
Oh God, too close for comfort for some reason.
I remember had an episode where Ernie Wise was a guest star even
though it was AUS sitcom I I don't know why to this day he
always. Wanted to get to America.
Didn't he get to Hollywood? And he did an episode of the 80s
series of Alfred Hitchcock Presents.
John, John Andrew. I mean, so he's.
He's just very varied. What what's the series he does
with Ray about the TB clinic? He's sort of taking it right
back to the start, isn't it? It is the is it get well, Sue?
Is that what it's called? And they, they.
So basically, you know, obviously Goldstein Simpson,
they start off in the TB clinic. Clinic.
Yeah, they meet each other. And so Ray and John Entres, they
write a series sort of based on Ray, Ray and Allen's kind of
early time together in this clinic.
And it's it's. With it's with a young Eddie
Marsan who's now quite a big star, absolutely.
And Matthew Matthew Cottle who was the Wimpy 1 from game on.
You. Are a very demanding,
unthinking, self centred, egotistical monster.
You not only eat everything insight, you devour the physical
and emotional energy of everything you come into contact
with. I've got a good head of hair
though and. I look good in a.
Kilk, do not let your disdain of my good self inhibit any future
visits to young Roy. There.
I will make myself scarce now. Good day to you.
We can't do much basties in here, but I'll stay much longer
next time. Will you?
Yes. Write to me, my darling.
Let me know if there's anything you need.
Well, I think I'm all right for the moment, Missus Hale.
Jilly just one more thing before I go.
Roy, I want to be quite straight about this.
Do you have a girlfriend? Well, there is Sheila.
Get rid of her. The last thing I want to
mention, just because I'd love to see it, and it doesn't exist
in any form, and it does bring us back to Spike and it's this
curious television play from 1971. 71.
You know where I'm going with this, is it?
An apple a day. I have a copy just here, but
it's it's not the TV thing, it's the script.
So an apple a day. Yeah.
Again, this is the thing which gets commissioned.
This is kind of like the story of John's life a bit, isn't it?
It is commissioned because Peter Sellers is going to be in it.
And then, strangely enough, would you believe it, Sellers
suddenly decides he doesn't want to do it after all.
So they have to recast and they get to Spike and Peter Cook and
Dudley Moore are in it. And yes, I don't.
Think Peter Sellers made a film in the whole of 1971 so he
wasn't busy, no. But I've he was a.
Tax exile in Ireland, I suppose, but I think that's the story.
So there we are. Yeah, Peter Cook, Dudley Moore,
Spike Milligan, and also Kenneth Griffith.
Yeah. And Tracy Reed, who, of course
was in Doctor Strangelove and Shot in the Dark.
And Dudley plays a young accountant who wants to be,
wants to be a doctor. Peter Cook plays his father.
And Peter Cook's fiance is Tracy Reed.
And her dad is played by Spike Milligan.
And it sounds intriguing. It is.
And it's in this one of the, I've got a couple of volumes of
John's plays out to the library and this is in in one with a
play called Why Bournemouth and other Plays.
And so it's just the TV script of an Apple a day in here.
And it says introduction to TV version.
This play has not yet at the time of publication, been
performed on TV. It has been most successfully
produced in the theatre rather than right in stage directions.
I believe this is best left to a director's imagination.
It gives me scope to work. That's my excuse.
I'm sticking to it. So what does it mean?
It is ATV script. I thought he was going to say
that it hadn't been produced on on stage anyway.
Yeah, so you must have that on stage somewhere as well.
Anyway, there it is. So yeah, it's 45 minutes on TV,
isn't it? Yeah, I think 50 minutes.
Yes. So it's it's a shame, you know,
some, some of these plays should be revived and we should see
them again. But yeah, that's one that is
this has got to come out of the woodwork.
Surely at some point they're going to find this in, you know,
Nigeria or somewhere wherever they find these these recordings
they've lost. Well, yeah, very interesting.
Yeah. An apple a day seems to continue
from John Entropos's previous anti doctor play.
You'll come to love your sperm test.
But in fact, it debunks the professional classes generally.
It also has a lot to say about the class war.
So that's from the blurb on the back.
Right. Get to love your sperm test.
I know. That's when we did earlier kind
of works anyway. Yeah.
But anyway, we salute it. We salute John Andrebus, a fine
fellow. And there's that sort of nice
little bit at the end of his interview he did with me.
And I was just asking, did he look back on?
There's time working at Associated London Scripts as
being a golden here. And this is, you know, today is
a golden time, you know, when I sort of, you know, put today
down, you know, all these opportunities now.
So I was just thinking it was a very kind of nice note, a very
optimistic note after everything, you know, that he's
gone through in his life. He's achieved great, great
things. But it would be nice to see a
bit of a revival of some of these, some of these plays and
some of them would be a bit better known.
And. Yeah.
He's still got a full head of hair.
He's like he has. Got an incredible That's the
main thing. Like Barry?
Gibbs like in 1977, Barry. Gibbs Dad, which he very
possibly could be. You know, it's a golden day.
Today's a golden day. And, and if, but if we, if we
look back and say, oh, that was golden, we're impoverishing
ourselves today. And there's absolutely no reason
to because my God, there's enough to write about.
There's enough to get angry about.
There's enough to be passionate about.
There's enough to laugh about. That is going on today.
So really, I would say make today golden.
There's been a lot of chat and about all sorts of different
aspects of John Entrebus career. And, and look, it, it would be
difficult to, to, to do a comprehensive history of John
Entrebus in, you know, in 90 minutes or, or whatever time we
have allowed. But I, I think, I think we've
made a pretty decent go of that. Mike and I want to thank you
for, for coming on and, you know, doing all that going above
and beyond in terms of your research.
Yeah. Well, it's a little bit all over
the place today, but yeah, thank you.
Thanks for having me back on and that always always a great
pleasure to do as well. And The Beatles in Liverpool is
still going strong. Oh.
Yes, absolutely. So yeah, I was doing one of my
Beatles in Liverpool tours today, so yeah, that is great
fun through Liverpool famous walking tours.
Yeah. So yes, I'm doing those pretty
much every day at the moment. So doing plenty of those and
what's? What's the most, what's the most
stupid question anyone's ever asked you on one of these
things? They don't ask stupid questions
on these tours. They had somebody turn up and
their understanding was that The Beatles were a boy band from the
1970s. So there's a few things to
correct there, right? Well, I mean, you do
occasionally get. Did you push that person in
front of an oncoming bus that wasn't?
On my tour I wouldn't say anything against any of the
lovely people who come on my tours, but you do occasionally
get the people saying, you know, when are we going to go and see
the the separate crossing outside Abbey Road Studios?
That's a bit of a walk from Liverpool.
So in fact they need to, they need to do one in Liverpool
actually. And I was just talking to this
to the group today because there was actually a photograph of The
Beatles. I think it is, what is it, the
18th of February 1963. So one week earlier they
recorded Please Please Me, their first LP in the UK, and then a
week later they are in Derby Square in Liverpool by the Queen
Victoria Monument where Brian Epstein was bribed by a young
man a few years earlier. He picked up anyway, The Beatles
there in 1963. And they do a photo shoot round
there for Honey Magazine, which is obviously a magazine for, you
know, young girls at the time because they are just becoming
really famous. And one of the photographs shows
them coming across a zebra crossing in Derby Square.
The zebra crossing is long gone, but I think they should actually
repaint it because this is very interesting.
You know, because there they are on the zebra crossing in Derby
Square, Liverpool One week after doing the first album.
They are then on another zebra crossing a few years later,
aren't they? Abbey Road, right outside the
Abbey Road Studios. Famous photograph on the cover
of the album. There is only 6 1/2 years
between the two photographs, which is just absolutely
extraordinary, isn't it? 6 1/2 years?
The whole kind of recording career, just in that short space
of time. Anyway, there we are.
Yeah, if I was. Doing If I was doing one of
those walking tours and someone asked me when are we going to
get to the Abbey Road separate crossing, I'm afraid I would
lose my rag. I would get all Alan Partridge
and stop getting Beatles wrong. No, you just always tell them
the story of, you know, it was called Everest and they were
going to go and do the the front cover picture on Mount Everest,
but then they thought that's going to be a long time to get
up there. So where can we go?
That's a little bit nearer. I know we'll go to the zebra
crossing right outside the studio.
They did just six photographs. Only one of them was usable.
That was on the 8th of August 1969.
Two weeks later, 22nd of August 1969, was the final time all
four of them were ever in one place together.
And this is the sort of nonsense you can look forward to if you
come on this tour. Yeah, there you go.
Beatles in Liverpool. Mike Haskins and how?
How do people find you, Mike? If they want to.
Seek you out if they want to find me.
I'm on blue sky these days, so that's me.
If they want, if they want to sign up for one of these tours,
right, well. You would go
www.liverpoolfamouswalkingtours.com and you'll see a horrible
picture of me on one of the one of the pages there and details
of all their tours. And yeah, they do car tours, bus
tours, we do walking tours around the city centre, so great
fun. Thanks again to Mike.
OK, so a little bit of housekeeping before we wrap up.
First of all, great news, sky dark with hats.
They are releasing on Blu-ray Two Way Stretch in about 3 weeks
time. It's coming out on the 4th of
August and it has special features such as a a featurette
called Peter Sellers Criminally Good, I don't know what that's
about but it sounds fab. And two way Stretch sellers on
the inside which sounds intriguing.
Mini documentary perhaps about the film Two Way Stretch, Good
good. And there's audio commentary by
authors and comedy historians Gemma Ross and Robert Ross.
But that sounds great. So I've already pre-ordered
that. And also Heavens Above is coming
out I think around the same time also on Blu-ray.
Not quite as good a film, but but look, it's still worth well
worth getting. I believe in the UK there will
both be retailing or on Amazon for 15 of your English pounds
each. So also just wanted to mention
had load of really great feedback and comments on the
last, I don't know, four or five shows that have been out.
And I just wanted to mention a, a, a small handful.
We did myself and Paul Abbott covered the goon show lost
goldmine of Charlotte and Chris Canfield messaged and said a
great podcast episode about a great goon show episode.
Thank you very much, Chris. He then went on to say, very
good point for how many shows did Spike have a similar thing
with the title The Missing Scroll?
The Lost Music of Purdum sets up a similar gag.
Yeah, it does, actually. And also also why did they need
to dynamite open the mind if Echols had been living in it?
Very, very good point that little of it makes sense, and
that's just fine. I absolutely love the bit with
the swimming pool. Then we had Matty BSD.
Hello Matty BSD, he said about. We were talking about the tune
that Max Gaudry plays on that episode, which was Ragtime
Cowboy Joe, and Matty says that I'm sure I remember Jimmy
Stewart singing Ragtime Cowboy Joe on Parkinson.
It must have been one of his stock performances.
However, Google is telling me I'm wrong and he never did.
I think Google is wrong. Well, I think Google is probably
wrong as well because Google is very often wrong.
Wronger than wrong. And if Brian Google is
listening, I stand by that. Next, talking about the episode
we did on Peter Sellers and Irene Handle, which was
amazingly well received and so much fun to make as well.
Ian Malkin said fantastic stuff. It's funny, Irene has a
filmography longer than both my arms and one of my legs.
But to me she'll always be Granny, AKA my little fruit bat
from Metal Mickey. I'm inclined to agree with you
Ian, because she was my my illest memory of Irene was on
Metal Mickey as I said on the show and Maggie Spaniel said.
Excellent episode. Nice to have Irene centre stage
for a change. Also I've had The Sou on the
bookshelf for ages now and never got round to it so this has been
a kick up the backside. The Sou of course being Irene's
first novel. What else have we got here?
Oh, Andrew Pixley, the great Andrew Pixley, everyone stand,
he said. Just wanted to drop you a quick
line to say how much have been enjoying your recent shows, The
Lost Goldmine and the Irene Handel editions in particular.
But this new one is an absolute stand out.
He's talking about the episode we did very recently on the
Galton and Simpson archive. He said, mainly because one,
it's good to hear Richard, that's Richard Usher taking
pragmatic steps to valiantly look after the GSPS.
It was such an absolute delight to hear Gary, Gary Brennan
talking about his work. Having spent years of my life in
archives going through such documentation with lovely
archivists, it was wonderful to hear him discussing his passion
and his mindset and his approach.
Nice one. Well, thank you very much,
Andrew. We also had a number of comments
about the most recent episode on Curry and chips.
Again, very well received. We did have a few comments on
Facebook, which I don't really want to mention, but Phil
Shoebridge. Hello.
Phil did say thank you for watching us, so I don't have to.
I am here to serve Philip. I'm here to serve.
Just enough time for me to point out that next week's episode is
Goonpod's 200th episode. Can you believe that?
Can't believe it really. And to mark the occasion, I am
welcoming a couple of very special guests to talk about a
very special Goon Show project. Intriguing TuneIn next week,
folks, to find out what that's about.
As it is the show's 200th episode.
I would welcome any comments or questions about Goon from you
listeners that I can include in the show.
So please lick the ends of your pencils and and then throw them
away because they're useless for sending emails or DMS on
Facebook or Blue Sky. But do please send in comments,
questions, anything, even if it's just just saying nice
things about me. I, I, I can take it.
OK any who time to go. Thank you so much for listening.
Hope you've learnt lots of stuff, lots of lovely stuff
about John Emperors. Until I see you again next week.
Bye.