Please, Sir, I want some more. What?
Please Sir, I want some more. More.
Hello and welcome to Goompod. This is the podcast where my
listeners tend not to shout more.
They shout less, but tough cheese listeners because it's
every week. But anyway, this week I'm joined
again. I think this is turning into
sort of like an annual thing. I think chaps, this is this is
your third appearance on the show.
It's it's Chris and Rob from the still any good podcast.
Hello. How are you?
Hello. It is the third visit, isn't it?
I think. It is.
Yeah. We did 3 Musketeers about a year
ago because we did. It was recorded on November the
5th because there were fireworks in the background.
Around. Yeah, that's right.
We're talking it well. We did the frighteningly similar
History of the World Part 1 before that.
Yeah, and then I've come on your show and done 4 Musketeers.
Yes, yes. And Tales of the Unexpected,
which I had COVID for so and the Jerk and the Jerk.
It was excellent. Oh, and the jerk, of course.
So we must stop meeting like this.
I think we're we're officially friends of each other's pods.
We are. I think we are.
So how's the podcast going?
How's the show going? It's enjoyable.
That's about it. It is going very well.
Thank you. Yeah, we're still enjoying it.
We're in the eighth year of doing it now.
So wow, one. Year we're old hands at it now
and it's good as as if anyone out there has has listened to
it. Sometimes we have a guest like
your good self. Sometimes it's just the two of
us, but we always have good fun doing it.
We always have lots of fun and Tyler, this will mean something
to you as a ex pet New Zealander, but we were.
We were on Radio New Zealand a few weeks ago.
Well, what? What for?
They just interviewed us. Yeah, we weren't on the news or
anything. Yeah, podcasters cause damage in
Central Town. There's no hostage situation
going on, no. It wasn't, it wasn't an AP
situation, but no, we one of our guests is a sports journalist.
One of our. Frequent guests.
And yeah, he he sort of said, oh, he should interview these
guys. Brilliant it was.
It was live radio. It was.
Nerve racking, Yeah, yeah. Did you get a noticeable upturn
in listeners as a result of that?
Do you know? We did.
I think two days later we were something like #2 in the New
Zealand download chart. So brilliant.
It served its purpose. It was great.
Which was strange because it was a live interview at 10:10 PM at
night. Yeah.
Alcoholics. The unemployable.
They're all listening in here. Podcast fans.
Single women? Yeah, Doubtful.
No noticeable ups in there, no. Well, I I don't know if I've
said this before, but I discovered you guys years ago
because I was. This is just what this says
about me. I don't know, but I was idly
searching, searching on iTunes for podcasts about Spike
Milligan. God knows why.
I must have searched for Digby, the biggest dog in the world,
and there was only one podcast in the world that had covered
that film. We should have caught that
episode. Digby the only podcast in the
world. Yeah.
So you haven't covered Digby on yours, have you?
I'm not offering. No, you.
Want to sit and watch it again? But.
You've not got it for. This have you?
No, it is on the list. Someone has said they want to do
that, but that will probably be next year I would imagine at
some point. I did feel a pang of something
when I listen to your yellow beard episode, because of course
Chris and I covered that. Oh yes.
God, 65 or six years ago on a notoriously rainy evening.
Yeah. But but I was listening to he
was going. I wish we had said that, yes.
Although they said on it they quite enjoyed it.
I'm glad we didn't say. That it made me want to go watch
it again. Oh.
My God, it was that good an episode.
Well, I know that, I know that you two, yeah, you 2 are pretty
sniffy about it. But we we we quite enjoyed it.
Yeah. More or less it made for a good
good topic. Yeah, I think you would probably
rob a little bit more positive about it than I was.
I just couldn't take it to it at all.
I I was sort of hurt because I cherished it and treasured it so
much as a child and, and. I was hurt because you chose.
It was the brakes, Chris. There's two fundamental errors
in that film. One is Tommy Chong, Oh yeah, who
shouldn't be in it, and the other is Madeleine Kahn's
accent. Oh yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Anyway.
And the fact that they got like a sports director to make, yeah,
Mel Adamski or whatever he was called.
Melodansky. Melodansky.
That's right. That's it.
Yeah, that's right. I think it might have been
better if Keith Moon had appeared in it, you know?
But who knows? Or if Peking power had made it.
Yeah. Yeah, would.
Have been a little glorious it. Would have been like salad days.
OK, So I asked you guys to come back and I said is there a
particular topic that we haven't covered so far on Goon Pod that
has some even tenuous relevance with the goons?
And for some reason, I don't know if it was you or Rob, one
of you suggested Oliver. I think it was me and I
suggested it was Rob, and I think your reply was if we must.
But I chose Oliver for a couple of reasons.
Partly, I think Harry Secom gets a bit of short shrift on your
show, and that's nobody's fault other than the fact that he
hasn't appeared in as many films as the others, as as many as as
Spike Milligan or Peter Sellers. But also Oliver does kind of
hold a place in my heart. It's one of those things that,
you know, In that classic film Sliding Doors, John Hannah says
that The Beatles should be called the Fetals because
everybody is born knowing the lyrics.
That's how the songs in Oliver are to me.
There hasn't been a time where I didn't know the songs.
I can't remember the first time I saw Oliver, but I've always
known the songs. We sang them at school.
Yeah, we did as well. Yeah, we sang food, glorious
food at school and consider yourself at.
School. I remember in Junior School
singing Umm Papa, which is just a song about debauchery.
Yeah and almost like 7 and 8 year olds all singing.
It was great fun, but, but also, as with with all of it, like
most people in school, I was in a school production of it, which
was which was grateful. I didn't have a a major role.
I was just male chorus, which I think is the best because you
get to hang around backstage. You get to mess around at the
back of the stage and have a laugh.
Yeah. And it was brilliant fun.
It was really, really good fun being in that.
Yeah, much better than being one of the leads.
Yeah. Oh.
Totally, totally. I was an extra in grease as well
and that was great fun. Right.
Well I cuz here's the thing, I've never seen this film
before. What?
Not, I think, because I I yeah, I did watch it for this.
I thought I felt better. Yeah, yeah, slightly awkward
conversation. Because I have got.
We're just. Going to recap it for you, yeah.
I've got a thing about musicals in general and it was never, I
don't know, growing. I'm a bit older than you Rob,
but when I was growing up in NZI, don't seem to remember it
being one of those Christmas fixtures on TV.
When did you depart our shores? Early 90s.
Oh, yeah, no, this. I was definitely on the telly a
couple of times because I much like Chris.
This is just one of those films that seems to sort of be baked
into me. Yeah, it's a terrible analogy,
but I do remember it being sort of an event musical.
You know, probably it's a 2 1/2 hour film, so they probably
stretched it out to kind of 3 1/2, three hours on on network
television. And I do remember being like The
Sound of Music or you know, others of the ilk, the whole
family gathering around the telly and and joyously watching
the first half of this film. When I saw it was 2 1/2 hours, I
thought and it and it began and we'll get into the film.
But it began pretty much with a song right, right at the outset,
right out of the trap. And I thought, oh geez, is it
just going to be all music, all songs all the way through?
Is there not going to be any that natural dialogue or
anything already plot, You know, and I thought 2 1/2 hours of
this. Did you start with 3 1/2 minutes
of yes, of overture of a blackness?
Yes. Because I I thought there's
something wrong with. Yeah, I did too.
The the version of the film I was watching, I sort of fast
forwarded it. I was like, oh shit.
And there's like, Oh no, it's just three and a half, 3 1/2
minutes of music. Absolutely.
Yeah. And then there's still like
another 4 minutes of credits after that.
Yeah. And all the sketches by balls.
Going which are great. But you're right, it does.
For the 1st 10 minutes of this, it does feel like it's one of
those musicals like Evita where there's no dialogue, it is all
just singing because it goes from food, glorious food, into
Mr. Bumble saying what we're about to receive, and then it
goes straight into the Oliver song.
Oliver, Oliver never before as a boy wanted more Oliver Oliver
and just for more when he knows what's in store.
There's a dark, thin winding stairway without any barrister,
which we throw him down. Oliver, Oliver.
What will he do when he's turned black and blue?
He will rule the day. Somebody named him.
Oliver, Oliver, Oliver, Yeah. So it does feel that way and,
and thankfully it's not because I'm a little bit different.
I do and I think you're the same robbery.
I've talked about this. I do really like musicals.
I love them. Yeah, I.
Don't have a problem at all with that.
Spontaneously breaking into song, if you I mean a couple of
weeks ago. The last episode that we do,
which is coming out soon, is for critters where we happily watch
little puppy aliens landing on Earth and causing havoc.
If I can stretch my imagination to that, I can certainly stretch
it to a musical. Yeah.
That's the way I see it, so I don't have a problem with it at
all, and if the songs are good then I'm fine with it and I
consider these to be really good songs.
It's like watching Cold Mountain.
You know, if Nicole Kidman's face can exist, then Civil War
era United States my suspension. Will only go.
So far, yeah. I tend to, I tend to shy away
from anything fantastical particularly so I do.
I do find musicals I mean, I'd rather sit through.
I would show a realistic goon Nelu that, yeah.
Absolutely, absolutely. Every week I'm I'm watching my
Dinner with Andre. Or if there's that realism of
the biggest dog in the world, you're fine with that.
Yeah, you and Spike. Kitchen sink realism the whole
way. Yeah, well, listen, I think we
should do a little warm up. OK now.
Oh, hello. I've got a little, I've prepared
a little little game that we can play.
OK, Now it requires a pencil and paper.
Have you got a pencil and paper? No, but you've got a word
processor. Yeah.
OK, So what I've done, I've prepared, I've prepared a little
overview of my week, OK? And I and I've included in this
little overview some very subtly inserted songs from Oliver and
characters from Oliver, OK? I want you to see how many you
can spot, OK? This is going to be.
Challenging. All right, so, so here's pinned
back. All right, and here we go.
I'll tell you what, I'm on a diet, and I mean I consider
myself pretty strong willed, but all I can think about is food.
Glorious food. I'd do anything for some pizza,
but my wife told me to go to the green grocers and pick a rocket
or two for a salad to go with my lunchtime sandwich.
I said I'd be back soon. A lot of people don't believe
me. There's nobody who will buy my
story that it's driving me nuts. They think I'm fagging it, but
it's true. I may be getting old and
bumbling, but I'm I'm sincere. I'm a heartful codger.
On my way to the green grocer, I walked past the Curry house and
normally I'd go in and say Oliver Chicken Madras, but
instead I just stood staring in as one of the cooks was
preparing clarified butter the traditional way.
As long as he needs ghee, he's doing it properly.
I popped into the Owl and Bullseye and saw they'd got a
guest ale, Starving Boy for sale and I was tempted, but reviewing
the situation I decided it was best not to, even if the other
regulars called me a Nancy. I got home and my wife had made
me the sandwich out of a healthy brown loaf.
She said it's a fine loaf. Too good for me, Tyler, no.
Way too subtle. You could at least put in a
reference to masturbates, couldn't you?
All right, Master Bates. Well, I'm sorry, I've gone back
to the original source material of the Charlie Bates is called
Masturbates 100 Times. Oh God, I have written the twist
as well. Yeah.
Chris is referring to the original text.
Yeah, the book of the film. None of the songs in there but a
cracking ring. I read it about 20 years ago, I
can't remember much about it. Have you both read Oliver Twist?
I about the same probably. I read it probably about 20,
maybe 25 years ago. Yeah, so I've read it in school,
which is obviously more than 20 years ago, but I did read it,
yeah, like about 10-15 years ago.
Something like that, yeah. I went through a period pre kids
where I was, I challenged myself that I'd read all of Dickens
works and I more or less did. Wow.
I read all apart from the the the last one, the the unfinished
one. What's that?
Edwin Drood. Edwin Drood.
Yeah, but I read everything else.
Which has also been turned into a musical.
Did you know the mystery? Of Edwin Drood.
Yeah, here's a fun fact for you. The music, the lyrics and the
book for the the musical drood exclamation mark were by Rupert
Holmes, who sang the pina colada song Pina colada song Escape.
Yeah, you want a Tony for it? What is this thing with with
musicals with one word titles and an exclamation mark?
Was that Lionel Bart that began that or what?
Might well have been I I assume you're calling this week's
episode good part exclamation mark.
Yes. Yeah, it became sort of a his
takey kind of trope. Didn't it?
Oh, like elephant. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Elephant.
That's right, yeah. But there is a little bit of
overkill because one of Lionel Bart's less successful musicals.
People said it was unsuccessful because it wasn't very good, but
I think it's because he used 2 exclamation Marks and that is
the infamous twang. Oh.
Yes, Twang. Yes.
Which, if you haven't read about Twang exclamation mark, you
really should. It's his Robin Hood musical.
Oh yeah. Now how could it fail it?
Was Jack Wild in it? No, because he was in the other
Robin Hood. I'll tell you who he was in it
as Little John doing a Breslow. Fantastic.
Yep. Sheriff of Nottingham, I think
it was Bob Grant from On the Buses.
You know, Haunted teeth. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Will Scarlett. Ronnie Corbett.
Ronnie Corbett, yeah. Yeah, I think Barbara Windsor
was in it as well. It was like a Carry On film.
Yeah, I mean, I've listened to the cast recording soundtrack
and it sounds like they got the Carry On team to make a musical
about Robin Hood, but not in the good Carry On era.
We're talking sort of like Carry On Behind or Carry On England.
It's not strong. We, we, we have talked about
that previously on the show. I think, I can't remember in
what context, but was it James the actor, James Booth?
Was he the lead in it? He was James Booth played Robin
Hood, yeah. Yeah, because he he could have
been a much bigger star. I think because he turned down
something to to be in twang and whatever it was he turned down,
it could have been a real boost for his career.
But anyway, he decided to know he's going to do twang and
whatever it was. Maybe he turned down James Bond.
I don't know. But you know.
Well, they would have needed to change a couple of letters in
the opening credits, so that would have been OK.
Yeah. Talking about twang reminds me
of the fact that the next movie that Carol Reed directed after
this, after getting the best director and best picture for
Oliver, was called Flap. What flap?
Flap. Yeah, I think Anthony Quinn's in
it. I don't know.
I just got, I've got a Anthony Quinn.
Yeah, Anthony Quinn in flap. And yeah, it seems to be a dip
in quality from Oh, my pressure retired after Oliver, but oh.
My God, do you know? Do you know what it's about?
No, I just got to flat and saw a picture of Anthony Quinn.
That's. All you need really.
And just, yeah, I was like, wow, yeah, I'm not sure if it was
that. Lame.
Yeah, let's. Hope so.
Very, very specific part of a plane, yeah.
Anyway, now we're talking about Oliver, because, as any fuel
know, Harry Secom's in it, although he's not he's he's
well, he he's quite high up in the cast list, but he's not in a
huge very. Prominent.
Yeah. He's, he's like third on the
bill. Yeah.
Yeah, but he's only, he's only got about, well, 10 minute
screen time in total maybe. Well, I think he arguably sees
the most iconic, well, second most iconic response to the most
iconic line in in the film. I always remembered that as a
child. Yes.
Yeah. It was always a bit of a joke in
my in my family as well, that after after you had dinner and
he went out for seconds, you know, someone would always go
please, Sir, I want some more. You lived in like a Dickens
funhouse. Yeah, sooty faced urchins we
were, and I was really, you know, I'm not, I'm not hugely au
fait with the work of Harry Secom, but I couldn't believe
his beautiful tenor voice. It was like Pavarotti.
Yeah, he was amazing. And he's also really great in
this. You just watch him on the screen
and he's always got a little bit of business in the best bit
where he's checking the dust on his finger and nobody's looking
and he's kind of looks all embarrassed.
All the bit where he's haggling in Boy for Sale.
It's just. It's just hilariously, yeah,
yeah, he keeps dropping the price and yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's really good. He's going cheap.
How much then? Only 7 giddies?
How much that all there about? Yeah, it's nice.
It's nice to see him working briefly with Leonard Rossiter as
well. Oh yeah, absolutely.
Because that was a that was a surprise.
Was the rivalry sort of, you know, from piece of Sellers and
and the like? I mean, I just imagine Peter
Sellers looking at looking at Harry's performance and thus the
best picture when a really amazing singing performance and
just kind of. Peter Sellers offered the role
of Fagin in this. Yeah, which I don't know if he
was pleased he. Didn't get it.
Oh, I'm thrilled. Yeah, because.
He's always very sensitive with the sort of racial stereotypes.
Yes. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure he would
have asked for the extra hooky nose.
Yeah, prosthetic, yeah, if you'd done it, but.
Because it was Peter Sellers was was.
And if it if it had been Peter Sellers, that would have been an
interesting film. You know, obviously, although
Fagin and Mr. Bumble don't actually meet, do they?
So, so they wouldn't have shared the screen together.
But Peter O'till was also offered it Again, I don't think
he would have made much of a fist of it really.
However, this is interesting. I thought Lionel Bart had wanted
Bruce Forsythe as Fagin. Oh.
God, you got pick. A pocket or 2A pocket or two,
you got pick. Nice to rub you to rub you nice.
I'm reviewing the situation higher or lower.
Yeah, I mean, Ron Moody though is phenomenal.
Yeah. It's just incredible.
I remember as a kid, Fagan was my favorite part and I just, I
thought of him as a goodie when I was a kid and probably because
I faded away by after the intermission when I was when I
was a child watching this. But he's just incredible.
The movement, everything. He is just, I think all the
performances, nearly all the performances, we'll talk about
Mark Mr. But you know, I just I was so, so captivated by his
performance and this I thought it was wonderful.
I was, I was worried about some anti-Semitic tropes kind of
coming through. But obviously Ron Moody was
Jewish and he deliberately worked to to subvert those kind
of tropes. And we don't have the 1948 Alec
Guinness who sort of decked out like.
Like the sketches in the original?
Book like the sketches in the original book yeah but but
pretty much looking almost like an orc or something and yeah I
was just couldn't believe that good he was I can't believe it
when the the Oscar was nominated but.
You won the Golden Globe. You did win the golden but.
People always talk about actors creating the role.
You always see that a lot in theatre.
They create all just basically they acted what they were told
to do. But with this, he literally did
create the role. He worked with Lionel Bart on
changing the Fagin character from this awful evil trope into
a clown like figure, something much more entertaining.
And so that's all on him. He did that.
He wasn't told to do that. He actually created that
himself. Because the Fagin in the book is
as much less ambiguously, evil isn't.
He, oh, he's completely and utterly evil.
He's controlling it because as we probably know, there's about
2/3 of the book that doesn't make it to either the stage play
or the musical. All the stuff to do with all of
his half brother, his cousin Rose Wiley or whatever she's
called, none of that is in this. And all of that is kind of
orchestrated behind the scenes by Fagan.
He arranges for Oliver to do that break in because his
brother is working with Fagan. So it's all Fagan.
Fagan is the one who gets Nancy killed by getting the bill to go
and. Get it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So.
He's an outright. And he's executed at the end of
his hand, yeah. Yeah, but in this, he obviously
he's still a baddie. He's still a thief.
Yeah, he's exploiting children. Yeah, but he's a he's a fun one.
But he's got a heart. He does have a.
Heart, he's like a he's like a sort of like a disreputable
uncle figure. Isn't he?
Yeah, Yeah. I mean, there are there are some
moments where like particularly when Oliver sort of spies on him
and his little secret stash of treasures and he asks him if if
he saw where he put it. And you get the impression that
obviously, yes, I saw he was he was going to do a man.
But yeah, he just falls on the on the right side of sort of
lovable rogue. Yeah.
And there's one bit in particular where he protects
Nancy with Bill is fighting with Nancy and she's fighting back
and, and Fagin obviously knows that if that happens, she's
going to get seriously hurt. So he kind of gets in the middle
and sort of goes, oh, Nancy, you're so funny, you're so funny
and really breaks down the situation.
It's really, really nice and done.
It's just amazing, yeah. The the the I'd do Anything
dance where he his character starts off by sort of grudgingly
allowing them to perform the number and then he just can't
help himself from joining in. I could just.
Believe it when I speak out loud where he just bursts in with
umbrella and feathers in his hair just like yeah.
About the place. It's yeah, I just loved.
It and he sort of corrupts the song from being this kind of
nice, sweet. I would do anything for you to
reminding the the pickpockets that don't do anything for him,
really. Yeah.
Would you rub a sharp anything? Would you risk the drop
anything? No.
Your eyes go pop anything and you come down.
Yes, we. Do anything.
Anything. We'll get to work then.
No argument. When there's fine pickings in
the street, get out and on your feet you.
Promised we'd go and see the hanging.
I was thinking about how many boys are with Fagin there.
How many boys are? There's got to be two dozen,
maybe. Yeah.
Really. About that?
Yeah. Yeah.
Does he have to? Does Fagin do they have to
perform that dance to show how they pick pockets every time a
new boy joins? God, yeah, it's a lot of
investment, isn't it? And they're so good at it.
Very tired. That's why they're so tight.
Yeah. What was it, 10,000 hours?
What was it? Malcolm Gladwell.
Yes, that's right, 2000 hours the.
Beatles and in Germany. The thing about Fagin as well,
he's he's quite vulnerable. He shows he's got a vulnerable
side and he's obviously subservient to Bill Sykes,
Oliver Reed's character. And I love that bit where we
first see Sykes and he's been on the Rob and he's handing over
his ill gotten gains to to to Fagin.
He's got sack and he's pulling out these endless, you know,
trinkets and silverware and jewelry from from his jacket and
it's. Almost like.
A. It just seemed to be endless.
There's. A naked Gun where they take
their guns off. Isn't it?
Yeah. Well, I was.
I was watching to bend down and unscrew a false leg.
Yeah, a full grown woman hops out of the sack and.
Just going back to the stage version because the I don't know
what it was, but the The Artful Dodger on stage was has been
played by the likes of Steve Marriott, Phil Collins and Davy
Jones from The Monkees. Tony Robinson.
Tony Robinson, who? He understudied Steve Marriott.
Well, he was good friends with Steve Marriott and I think, I
think Ichiku Park is, is inspired by his Marriott's
friendship with Tony Robinson to some degree.
Oh, OK. Yeah, because they used to knock
it out together for the film. Jim Davidson auditioned for The
Artful Dodger. Jesus.
Christ. Well, well, you know that.
You know that he's a bit Brexit. He the Artful Dodger.
He always says he leaves the country and then we'll see what
happens. In the book he gets transported
to Australia. It would have been nice to have
It's Only a Game. So bad to believe I'm right in
this. That would have been.
Good. It had been giving Ron Moody
notes on, you know, come on, make it a bit more racially
insensitive. Come on.
Stop being so woke, Ron. Next you tell me Robin Esquith
went first at the role of Oliver.
Oh, God. Or Malcolm McDowell.
Mark Lester. Mark Lester, who plays Oliver is
a bit of a cipher in the film, really, isn't he?
He's he's the title character, but he's kind of, he's the least
interesting. He's sort of us in the book as
well, from memory. He's quite passive in the book
as well. He's.
Hardly in the book at all. He just hangs around with his
new family while all this other stuff goes on.
All the stuff that happens in the film, it happened in David
Lean's film. I think it's where it started,
when Bill Sykes takes him and holds him hostage and all of
that. All of that happens to Bill
Sykes alone. There's no snatching back of
Oliver or anything like that. He is incredibly dormant
throughout the majority of the film.
And I, I can't remember, I did read a review and I can't
remember if it was Leonard Maltin or Roger Ebert when the
film first came out. It probably is Roger Ebert and
he said that the film makers have quite rightly recognized
that Oliver is the least interesting character in his own
film. And so we've put him on in 2nd
place. Everyone else is is much more
interesting and so they've really put them ahead of him and
absolutely right, quite right too.
Yeah, And I, as I was watching this, I was thinking, oh, God,
Mike Lister's performances. But.
But for all I know, for all we know, I guess he's just doing
what the director wanted him to do.
He's got that kind of angelic, cherubic sort of face.
He. Just looks innocent.
Yeah. And that's the.
Point and my heart you know the the scene where Bumble is
they're walking through the snow and Bumble's trying to sell them
my heart really did go out some and when he's in the
undertaker's sort of cellar and he sings his little.
Richie Rich there. His, his singing voice, every
time he sang it made me giggle because just thinking I wanted
him to do oh God, what's that? Nothing compares to you.
But she had a Connor or something.
And that's just what he sounded like to me.
It's been 7 hours. But yeah, my heart went out to
him. He's an innocent.
He's an innocent child. Well, I'll tell you what,
though. I'll tell you what.
Mark Lester. Yeah.
Later on, Yeah. You know what you did later on,
don't you? I do, yeah.
He reckons he fathered Michael Jackson's children.
Absolutely. Yeah.
And he told Damon Holmes that, so it must be true.
Yeah, yeah, he was. He was besties with Jacko,
wasn't he? He?
Was yeah, he's godfather to the children and potentially.
Actually, biological father, yeah.
Which did make me think, there's the scene towards the end where
Bill Sites is hanging Marc Lester over this balcony and I
just thought, well, that's going to happen to his children.
Yeah, I mean, either way, he does claim that he gave Michael
Jackson a sperm donation prior to the kids being born, probably
most of his house guests at one stage or the other.
And he's an osteopath now. Mark Lester, yes.
Yes. Which seems about right I think.
Yeah, and acupuncture, I think. He's.
Yeah, you've. Got a pickpocket?
Or two. You've got a pricker.
Got a pricker, Robert or too? Yeah, I was watching this film
and the name Oliver just kept being repeated and repeated and
repeated. And I had to go.
I had to get up and go and call the cat in.
And I went outside and bellowed Oliver, because his name's Milo.
Yeah, because seek him. Seek him really does that
Oliver. And then his wife, I noticed,
went Oliver and I was like, yeah, I'm more with you, lady.
We don't need to. His name's not Oliver is.
That Peggy man to his wife. Yes.
I'm sure he has. No, there are some good roles in
here for the the older women and they're played by some amazing
character actors like. Hilda Baker.
Hilda Baker, Absolutely. Who's who's Leonard Ross at his
wife and that so Leonard Ross that plays the undertaker
Sowerby. Sowerberry isn't.
It celebrity. Yeah.
And and does a nice he's he's obviously a bit of a drunk.
I love that bit where he comes in pissed and takes advantage of
Oliver vacating the coffin and he climbs in some.
Friends at the cemetery. It's quite comfortable.
I I love how he calls his wife my love.
My love. That's quite comfortable in
there. Well, well, well.
Having a rest, Mr. Bumble. He's sitting on Oliver.
Quite right. We must all sit on Oliver.
You've been drinking again. I miss a friend in the cemetery.
Who's in there? Yeah.
Coffin should not have been occupied until tomorrow.
It's reserved for a very important client.
Stand back. Now.
Then what's an explanation? You're young.
Scary wag. He called my.
Mayonnaise. And what if he did, you
ungrateful little Wretch? She deserved what he said, and
worse, she. Didn't she did.
It's alone. Put him down in the cellar, Mr.
Bumble. That'll teach him my.
Love really quite comfortable. Are you disappointed that they
didn't include the Sowerberry song in the film?
Because there is a song that they sing in the stage
production, which is That's Your Funeral, which is a really good
song. They sing it with Bobby and for
whatever reason, this is one of the I think 3 songs that were
cut from the film. It was a shame because I think
it would have been great to see Leonard Rosser and Hilda Baker
singing. Didn't we see Hilda Baker and
Arthur Mullard singing? Sing, you're the one that I
want. About 10 years later.
If you're filled with infection, yeah.
Well, I am, I have to confess, I was after, you know, Chris and I
sort of agreed to do this. I was slightly dreading watching
myself. Oh God, it's going to be a
really stodgy, you know, 4 hour long.
It's like watching Chitty Chitty Bang Bang or Hello Dolly or
something, you know? And I was like really pleasantly
surprised with how much I enjoyed this and just how
brilliant every aspect of it is. Almost like the sets are fucking
phenomenal. It's incredible that everything
is a set, everything on Shepperton.
Oh my God. So like right after the
intermission, when he wakes up and Brownlow's sort of terraced
white, you know, and he looks out the the window.
I couldn't believe that that was this.
Amazing. Studio backlog or whatever.
Yeah, that's amazing. That is amazing.
You know, and that first set. So when you when it starts with
food, glorious food, it almost looks like Tim Burtonesque.
Yeah, it's almost this kind of slight, slightly
expressionistic. Everything's in a funny angle,
something's really too long or too wide, so it's all stretched.
Yeah, but it's got almost kind of like Ken Adam Bond, kind of
like the vastness of it and the way that the camera sort of
sweeps around and Bumble sort of descends the stairs and it's
just everything looks big and real and layered and with lots
of depth. And I just visually I was, I was
surprised how just the textured visually it was.
Well, I, I didn't realize it was a set, the Bloomsbury Square who
will buy bit. So I was really, really
impressed by that. I mean, that goes on and on and
on and on. But it took about six weeks to
film, I gather. And it begins with that.
What would you call it? So you know, the sort of flower
seller. Yeah, yes.
Like violets, lovely violets. Oh, you've got a kind face,
Governor, and no mistake that that sort of woman if.
It was, yeah. If it was Yellow Beard, it would
be the little girl going. Do you like to buy a lump of
shit? Yes.
Yeah, that's it, That's it. But I love the way that it
builds up. So you've got you've got the
flour seller, then you've got milk maids, then you've got
various other buffeters of goods like the knife grinder, and then
it just builds up and up and up and up.
And it's just so there's not, there's nothing out of place.
Everybody is on their mark, aren't they?
Must have been. Oh, the choreography.
It's. Incredible.
Yeah. Because as well, something I did
notice having listened to the soundtrack a couple of times, is
that the the opening melody starts with exactly the same
notes as Boy For Sale. OK, so it's got that same
introduction, but the way it turns from complete despair to
this absolute joy is a really good way of showing how his life
has changed just using that same little piece of music.
It's great. I was quite surprised to see
that this was made in 68. I always kind of thought of it
as a bit earlier. It must really be right on that
cusp of sort of the the, the, the death of these really
sweeping, epic kind of musicals. This was the last musical to win
Best Picture until Chicago, I think.
Yeah, and the following year's best picture when I was Midnight
Cowboy. I mean you can get Wow.
Yeah. You know, in terms of like
epochal shifts, yeah. I mean, even at Shepperton, I
think this the same year at Shepperton that this was made,
2001 was made. Yeah, Yeah, there's.
The Linda Rossiter. Yeah, yeah.
You're talking about the set as well.
I'm I'm listening to The Michael Palin Diaries, the first volume,
the audio book that Palin reads himself and he talks about
making Jabberwocky in 77 and the Oliver set was still there and
they repurposed parts of it for Jabberwocky.
Apparently they were. Still dismantling it.
Yeah. And then and then, and that was
77. Two years later, having filmed
in Tunisia, Palin had to refilm a small sequence of the ex leper
scene, Right. He was, yeah.
He, he writes to his diary that he he was on the Oliver set to
film that bit. And that's 79.
Yeah. What do we think about the G
rating? So for British people, what does
G rating mean? Is that like a like a used
certificate? Or like general like just?
The PG basically. Well, no, it's anyone can see
it. You don't even need parental
guidance. General admission, I mean.
I saw it when I was. Little.
Well, so did I, but watching it with these old wizard eyes, that
is fucking bleak subject matter, isn't it?
Oh. Absolutely I.
Mean there's psychological abuse domestic violence you know a
woman is bludgeoned to death by her partner there's the poverty
that these children and, you know the the terrors that are
visited upon these children yeah the.
Kids love stuff like that. Yeah, I know.
But it's not kind of like, it's not like a Roald Dahl story
where it is clearly slightly, you know, fantastical.
It is a fairy tale though. Yeah, but it's, it's really
rooted in reality, isn't it? I mean, it's why Seconds wrote
it. He sort of wrote it as a.
Oh, it's a satire of of the class system and of poverty, but
I think it is clearly a fairy tale.
It is the young man who finally gets his, realizes who he is,
and he's related to someone very rich, and he manages to escape
it all after going through those hardships.
So it's very Cinderella. Oh, it is, but it's not set in a
land far, far away. It's set in a workhouse and
Dunstable and, you know, and yeah, it just, it just feels
pretty kind of grim. Come on.
But I tell you, who is in this
Gale platform? Coronation Street Helen Worth It
is apparently an urchin in the Consider Yourself sequence.
Really. Oh, really?
Yeah, GAIL. GAIL, Oh, GAIL.
GAIL. I'm going to have to go through
and look for all the little urchins that don't have chins.
That are making terrible life choices.
The murderer chasing after? Yeah.
It's quite it would be better. If it was Norris.
It was Norris as Bill Sykes. Emily Bishop is Nancy.
Ashley is Oliver. Oh God.
They're dancing on the red wreck.
Well, I think Fred Elliott is Fagan to be brilliant you've.
Got to. Assay, you've got to pick a
bucket or two. That'd be great.
Yeah. Oh God, we're just sending into
courage again. No, we'd be voting.
Oliver. Oliver.
Mike Baldwin would be brown, though.
It'd be great. It'd.
Be good. Yeah.
Who'd be the outful Dodger? Probably David Platt.
David Platt. Yeah, David.
Yeah. Or Steve maybe?
Chesney. Is he still in it?
I don't know. Chesney.
Yeah, Schmeichel as dog Schmeichel could be.
Bullseye. There we go.
Yeah, done. I I I was sad to read that
because obviously this Oliver made Lionel bar didn't it really
and all did it and well, it did, I believe.
But then he, he, he kind of, he was a bit of a boozer and he had
all sorts of expensive habits and, and obviously a series of
flops. And due to a a a serious decline
in his fortunes, he sold the rights to Oliver to, of all
people, Max Bygraves for £350. So not big money.
It's just incredible because I think he was friends with Max
Bygraves from because I didn't line about did things ain't what
they used to be. And I think Max Bygraves was
involved in that at. Some time they've.
Known each other for a long time and I couldn't work out when
he'd sold it because I read something somewhere that he sold
the rights to Oliver in like 1959.
But all the things I've read that it was done afterwards when
he was on his yeah yeah Yeah binge in the.
Early 70s, yes, that's what I think it was, yeah.
So was this sort of playing on the West End or Broadway or?
It depends when he sold it to yeah.
Bygroves. But as we know, there's been so
many West End revivals, yeah, which I think for about the last
30 years, Cameron Macintosh is on the right.
So he just had no inkling of the success that was in store for
him with us before he sold it. It depends.
Like I said, I've seen I've seen some articles where he said he
sold it before and some that said he sold it after.
So I'm not entirely sure when he sold it to Max Bygraves.
Yeah. Well, Bygraves.
But Bygraves sold them on for quarter of £1,000,000.
Imagine going home that night and being love, I've just bought
the rights to Oliver. But love, I've just bought the
New Testament. All the rights to Oliver.
Yeah. Yeah.
I did the hands as well, you can see that.
What's that used to say? I want to tell you a story.
I.
Want to tell you a story? I've just just bought the first
issue of Action Comics. £30 got the Mona Lisa down at the
market. His family fortunes, wouldn't
it? So, OK, have either of you,
because I have either of you, sold something cheaply out of
desperation? Yeah, we used to have, there was
a company here called Cash Converters basically like it was
a porn shop, but it was like a porn shop chain.
And I do remember, you know, taking in like CDs and things
when I was at uni and just desperate to probably buy a
baggie of weed, if I'm honest. But you know, it was that phase
of my life where I deep fried breed at one point, just there
just to get by. So.
But yeah, nothing very pretty, nothing precious to me, nothing
really dear to me. I think for me, I had quite a
good vinyl collection when I lived in the UK and when it came
to moving out here it was kind of impractical to bring them all
out here and just needed a bit of money for the journey.
So I sold them all for not very much money at all.
And it's a bit, it's a bit like Shaun of the Dead.
It was original pressing Blue Monday.
It was all that kind of thing, you know, needing.
Some money for the journey. I'm, I'm, I'm picturing like an
American tail or something with you.
I know some of the time I hanky. On the back of your bindle on
your cinema voyage. Literally had no cash, not even
for like the airport hotel or fuck am I going to do so.
I just sold all my vinyl to one of my friend's boyfriends and he
said I'll look after it and I thought I bet he did.
I bet he did. Because there was a bit of it.
Was there any wedding present in there?
There was, oh, 10 inch of dalliance, which was like only
about 500 of them were ever made.
He's now living in a solid gold house.
He is. Yeah, he shits gold.
Yeah, he really did. So here's the thing, right?
Late 90s no, probably mid 90s. I was thinking I was living in
Burnage in Manchester and I had AI was working in a record shop,
didn't have a lot of money and I'm not proud of it.
I had an item of great value, shall we say?
OK, shall we say I was, I was at that time, I was a little bit
off the rails and I needed some food and cigarettes and I guess
booze as well. And I went to the local shop
that I would always frequent, which was owned by a bit of a
wide boy, let's face it. And I didn't actually have any
actual money. So I took this item of great
value and I said, if I give you this, can I take some stuff from
your shop, please? And he said yes.
And I got things like, I don't know, maybe A4 pack of lager, a
Pot noodle or two, some ciggies, probably, probably worth nothing
more than £1015.00 in total. And, and then I woke up the next
morning and thought, what have I done?
What have I done? And I went back into the shop
and tried to, you know, say, look, I'll pay for the, I'll
give you the proper money, but can I have that back, you know?
And he just just laughed in my face and all that is such a
painful memory for me. What was his name?
Fagan. Well, the Banton of me, Banton
of me waking up the next morning and rushing around to the shop,
but it's it's closed up. He's left.
He's got there's a sign saying gone to the Bahamas.
Free shop for anyone who wants Yeah, yeah.
I always remember my dad telling me that when he was young, when
he was little, his granddad showed him this book and said,
01 day, this book will be yours. And then a few years later, my
dad sort of asked his grandmother where it was, and
she said that she'd sold it because they needed it to pay
the rent or whatever it was. Yeah.
And it was a first edition of Origin of the Species.
Oh my God. Signed.
No. Yeah.
What by? By no, by my grand, not by his
granddad, no by Mr. Darwin himself.
The origin of the origin of, I think.
We sold for a couple of shillings just to get some bread
in the corner. Wow.
Yeah, I wouldn't be sitting in a garage talking to you now if he
still had that, obviously. No.
Is there a sort of a form of Darwinism and and losing that?
Very. Ironic.
Yes, it is actually. Yeah.
Wow, yeah. Holy shit.
Yeah, yeah. So, OK, back to the film, back
to. The film.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry.
Yeah, so Mr. Brownlow, Mr. Brownlow, who's this kindly old
gentleman or older gentleman who takes all of that under his
wing, and it's such a coincidence that Oliver should
be related to him? To find out.
Well, it's all of A twist that took me ages to realize that.
Is that? What is that?
Very, very soapy? And the joke is, it's all of A
twist. Yes, because that because that
was Oliver Twist was his second novel.
I think I have to pick with. Papers.
Yeah, and the early Dickens works.
Serialized. Yeah.
Well, yeah, it was serial because it's not Victorian.
It's technically it's pre Victorian because when it was
serialized, William the 4th was still on the throne and then he
died a few months later. Yes, so technically it's pre
Victorian. Williams, Ian.
Yes, but no Dickens, I know in his earlier, earlier works he he
would often have these very characters with very punning
names or. Yeah.
Sort of on the nose kind of names, like is it Nicholas
Nickleby? There's a character called Count
Very Soft who's a bit of a milk toast character.
Do the boys whole? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah, he doesn't. Need Dickens?
He had some wonderful names. He had a talent that I've got to
say, JK Rowling does not have. Did he?
Did he have a character called Mr. Flap?
I don't. Misses twang, yeah.
We know Twang Carol. Carol Carol Reed saw that.
It's a film on that. I think it was David Baddiel
said that, that that's the thing with with Dickens is he always
named his character things like Miss Lovely and things like
that. And all the baddies are called
like Mr. Complete Bastard. So he does the good job that he
didn't invent Pluto, I suspect Mr. Murderer.
But apparently he did that because in his early days of, of
trying to be a writer, when he was, I think, a political
journalist, somebody made fun of his name and said his name was
very dull and very boring or very queer, as they called it.
Yeah. And so he was then determined to
give all his characters very imaginative names just to summon
up the character. Charles Dickens isn't a boring
name. Dick.
Edens. Yeah, through high school with a
name Surname like Dickens? Exactly.
Actually, he never went to school.
Yeah, I would. I would work out at the age of
12. Wasn't he?
Yeah. Didn't he work?
He work in a boot blacking factory.
He did. Yes, yeah, because his father
went to the debtors jail. Oh.
And so he was forced into work. Was it Marshall C Prison?
Was that what it was called? I think so.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so as was the, as was the
style at the time, he was then forced into work.
And yeah, it was it was blacking boots.
I suppose you want some place to sleep tonight?
Aye. Do you know of anywhere?
As it so happens, I know a respectable old gentleman what
will give you lodgings for nothing, really.
I never asked for the change. That is, if any other gentleman
emails, introduces you and down in our name.
He must be a very kind old gentleman.
Oh. Oh, yes, yes, yes, she's very
kind. And I'm a particular favorite of
this. Well, now, if you're coming
along, I better know who you are.
My name is Oliver. Oliver Twist.
And mine's Jack Dawkins. Better known among me, more
intimate friends, is the artful Dodge.
Pleased to meet you, Mr. Dodger. We've not really touched on,
we've talked about, we've talked about most of the cast, but
we've not really talked about the Artful Dodger, Jack Wilde.
It's a sad tale. It's very good.
A sad tale. Why so?
Oh, he had a very had a very difficult life.
So he he was 16, yes. He played Charlie Bates in the
West End for a few years. And his brother was Oliver.
Yeah, I think apparently he was discovered by Phil Collins, his
mum, who was a theatrical agent. It was that typical thing.
She saw him playing football and thought there's a cheeky chap.
Yeah. And signed him up when he went
to stage school. But yeah, he was, it was 16 when
it came out and I think he was like 15 when it was being
filmed. And he was actually wearing
lifts because he was even shorter than Mark Lester.
I I love one, one of my favorite films as a child was Puffin
stuff, the Puffin stuff film and Jack was the lead and that as
well. And he doesn't, he doesn't look
particularly, I don't remember him being like a real Midget and
puff and stuff. He looked like a normal size,
but he looks tiny in this. Maybe it's sort of the oversized
coat and top hat and things like this.
But he was basically an alcoholic.
So he was 16 when he made Oliver.
He was an alcoholic by the age of 21, squandered all his riches
and just had a really just a terribly hard life.
I think. I don't think it was until 1989
that he sort of beat his alcoholism.
He ended up dying of oral cancer.
I think he had his tongue and part of his jaw removed.
Or he has got 2. Voice box removed.
Yeah, and you only have to watch his little cameo appearance and
Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves, which is what, 1991?
And he just looks like God. He looks like Scarecrow.
Sounds awful, but he looks like Golem.
Yeah, he does. Yeah, he does.
And I think as a kid watching this, you immediately are drawn
to the Artful Dodger. He's so charismatic and such a
great performance. And yeah, it's just really sad.
What happened to Jack Wild? Well, he, he and the Dodger and
Fagin make a great double act. I mean, they're not.
They don't do a lot together, but right at the end when you
realize that Fagin is kind of one of the good guys.
I suppose in a in a way one of the.
Yeah, least bad. Well.
He turns his back on the worst thing.
Yeah, and he didn't want. Any more of it?
Yeah. Reviewing the situation.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because the, the the climax of
the film, of course, were Oliver Reed.
Who doesn't have a song, Does he?
Oliver Reed? No.
Thankfully. He he does in the stage
production, there's a song called My Name, which is just
his introduction, which is everyone trembles at the thought
of my name, but it was it was removed from the film.
Opinions are divided upon why some say that a character that
scary shouldn't have a song. He shouldn't be singing and
dancing because he's a murderer. Other people have said it's a
time factor because it's already quite a long film.
But I think if anyone who's seen Do You Think It's All Right in
Tommy might work out the real reason why Oliver Reed isn't
singing in this film. So there's no opportunity for
like a little spoken word, kind of.
Thing no, it was just removed completely yeah they use the
theme when he's dangling all over over you can hear the doom
doom doom doom do do do which is the verses from my name but
that's the only. Sort of thing you can.
Use it because he's really good in this, isn't he all all very.
That's terrifying. That first scene that you talked
about earlier, Tyler, I mean, you just see his sort of
silhouette approaching. A Shadow in a Tunnel, directed
by Carol Reed. Yeah.
At a slight angle.
Yeah, cookie clocks. And he just sees nothing through
that whole scene where he's like, you know, taking out the
stolen goods from their sack. And it's just exudes sinister
evil. When I was a kid, I was
terrified. Yeah, I was scared of him too.
I was a. Kid.
I can still understand why because he plays it like a
serial killer in a horror. Movie.
Yeah, when I was a kid. There's this in Gisbane.
There was a local magician called Barry Sykes, and I
remember being sort of like, Oh no, no, sounds too close to Bill
Sykes. All on account of his no.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. What about Eric Sykes?
He didn't come to school so. Eric never came to kids, but.
No, Barry Sykes. However, I'm not taking your
card. I don't want your card, Barry.
Again, and of course, he was Carol Reed, the director's
nephew, and he was suggested for the role, wasn't he?
And that was in the family. Connection, the producer, John
Wolf said he didn't know which. I mean, Oliver Reed wasn't a
huge star at the time, so that's.
Plausible. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Carol Reed was already in pre production on flat so.
The actress that plays Nancy Shani Wallace.
Shani Wallace, yeah. Yeah, she's very good.
She's done a lot of stage stuff, a lot of Broadway and a lot of
West End productions, and that's what she went back to after
this. I felt she was slightly miscast.
I mean, she's absolutely fine at the singing and the actual
performance herself, but I just didn't get AI wanted something
slightly bit of a six year kind of vibe.
But like Rita Webb. Yeah.
Well, Marty, I was going to, I was going to say Marty.
Was Marty was played Nancy? 1st.
She has played Nancy. Actually in one.
Of the world, Well, Harry Webb. Was he go?
He was busy doing Heathcliff. Harry Webb.
Who, you ask? I have never.
Marty Feldman. I have never done a Nancy before
you went but they did want Shirley Bassey to be honest.
But the it's said that she didn't get it because she was
too Welsh. I'm sure, yeah.
But also, you know, I'll do anything as long as we're like,
I mean, just yeah. Yeah.
It's a fun life. Joe Longthorne, that's great.
But yeah, I mean, she's, she's absolutely, it's absolutely
good. Apparently, wasn't there a bit
of a feeling that the person who created the role and we seemed
should have? There was.
Georgia Brown didn't. Get because she she done at the
West End on Broadway for about 6 years and she claimed she didn't
get it because Ron Moody didn't like her.
Moody by name. Moody by name.
But he's got denied that because I think I I was, I looked on
YouTube and there was, I'm not really caught an interview, a
conversation with Shanie Wallace and Harry Secombe, which is
actually on set. OK, while while the film was
being made and she was saying she got offered the role very,
very early. She was in in Broadway doing a
musical version of How Green Was My Valley.
OK. Which sounds a bit Spinal Tap,
isn't it? Musical version of Somebody Up
There Likes Me and Ed Sullivan happened to be in there and saw
it and invite invited her on the show to do a couple of the
songs. John Wolfe saw her on the show
and the next day phoned her and said would you like to be in the
film production? OK.
And it was, it was made about two years later, something like
that. OK.
So she got it very, very early. Yeah, I just, I didn't, I didn't
really believe her. And Bill Sykes as a couple, for
some reason, I don't know, she just, there's something too
wholesome about her. Yeah, not not slatternly enough.
No, I mean, she did look, she had a fine heaving bosom, but a
really terrible haircut. Not her fault.
Strange fringe thing. But yeah, no, it's just, I don't
know someone. But at least hang on, at least
at least she she was a cockney, unlike Madeline Khan in yellow
beard. Yeah, Now, Madeline Khan, she
would have been. She would have been a good
Nancy. She would have been a good
Nancy, accent aside. Aside because the whole thing,
like Boo, would be tough for a cuddle.
Sugar draws. Because the thing about Nancy
is, as, as we all know, it's the ability to belt out a song,
which is what Nancy does. Yeah.
And she does that very well. She does that.
She. Absolutely hammers it.
Up she does a a great job of fine life and as long as he
needs me God, it's a dude it's the.
Stand by your man of the 1960s, though, isn't.
It really? Oh yes.
That that was the you know, I was worried about the sort of
anti-Semitism, which was sort of ungrounded kind of worry for me.
But yeah, all that song about the oh, we'll give you a black
eye and. It's a fine life.
It's a Fine Life was meant to be a sort of a satirical song or
being sarcastic, but it's not, though they perform it like they
really enjoy the lifestyle. I said you'd always cover one
while he blacks the other. One, yeah.
And then, you know, that would have been unsavory enough, but
particularly the way that what ends up with the same character.
Bullseye, the dog, I believe had to undergo six hours and make up
every day or something. Basically Tim Curry and legend.
Was actually played by Andy Serkis.
Yep. Well, I know that they had to.
They had to tie his tail down because he was enjoying himself
so much. His tail kept wagging.
Oh well. Which I think is delightful.
Well, you know, it's his first featured featured role.
Yeah, it's been an extra before. What did amuse me because
there's there's quite a difference between the Act one
and Act two. Act 1 is a lot more upbeat and
sort of breezy and bright, and then you get into some of the
grim stuff and Act 2. But it did amuse me that all of
a sudden at one point the movie becomes almost like a Binji
slash Lassie kind of. What is it?
Bullseye. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Come with me. Bullseye.
Oh, wait, you can. Bullseye holding his ground.
No, Bill just took it too far. You're a.
Bullseye. I didn't know.
Yeah, yeah. You know, there needed to be a
monologue or something like so Michael Horton as the interior
monologue of Bullseye. We've taken it too far, Bill.
I finally had Johnny Deal good. But yeah, that really amused me
that all of a sudden it became like Bull's eyes.
Little. We just tried to kill Bull's.
Eyes. Yeah, yeah.
You know, ever since I've paid your wife in that film, I've
felt more sort of you needn't, I assure you about your singing
now, Surely it shouldn't have bothered you.
After all, you're in great demand to star in comedies on
stage, screen, television. Oh yes, Harry, but those parts
are all sort of aggressive women.
And I'm not like that, Harry, honestly, you know, underneath
I'm all soft and sweet and feminine, gentle, cuddly and
warm like a like a, like a giant panda.
You are so right, honey. But I'll tell you one thing.
If I'd have been chichi, they'd never have had any trouble with
Anne. Anne romantic.
That's me. I've got all my notes here.
This could have applied for any scene that she was in.
Peggy Mount with a face like a bulldog licking piss off a
nettle. That's great.
I think so. She's fantastic in this.
Right. Is she Mr. Bumble's wife or she
just his? To begin with, in in the first
scene with her together, she is the widow Corny.
Yeah. All right.
Now now in this. You're married in the book.
Though, well, eventually, OK, in the stage play and in stage
production and also in the book, there's a there's a courtship
scene which leads to the song, which again isn't in the film,
which is I Shall Scream Wow, which is Mr. Bumble being all
flirty and her kind of going I shall scream, I shall scream I.
Wish we'd seen that. Yeah, I wish we'd seen.
That again, it's a good song and I do remember she does she say I
shall scream and flirts back with him in the book.
And then later when we see them married, she's turned into this
right old battle. Acts, who makes?
His life a misery. Yeah.
And they've just missed that middle bit out the little
flirtatious period, Right. It is a little bit confusing.
Yeah. First of all, they're not.
They're just colleagues. If you like.
Yeah. And then when we see them second
time, she is Mrs. Bumble. OK, OK.
Yeah, because that's right. Because the the second scene is
that we see them when when they're married, we see them at
Mr. Brownlow's house. The behaviour, Madam, was
shameful. How dare you speak to me?
So I only came here to help you. You.
Came here to profit from your own greed and dishonesty.
As to that, Sir, if you think the Locket don't probably belong
to my dear wife, be quiet. You are full.
Yeah, your reward and something for the Locket.
Take it. Be yourself.
Lucky you're not in the hands of the law, Missus.
Better. And show these people out.
There's gratitude for you. I hope this unfortunate little
circumstance won't deprive me of my parochial office.
My hope, Sir, is that it will. But it was all Mrs. Bumble, Sir,
I did nothing of we can do yesterday.
There's no excuse in the eyes of the law.
You are the more guilty of the two, for the law supposes that
your wife acts under your direction.
If that's what the law supposes, Sir, then the law is a Hass.
If that's the eye of the law, Sir, then the law is a bachelor.
And the worst I wish the law is a designed may be open by
experience by experience. I had a real giggle at the
portrait of Brownlow's niece because, you know, it's this
very sort of slender necked, kind of graceful looking woman
with Mark Lester's face. Like it's pretty Photoshop.
Yeah, but just that that little yeah twist there of a, you know,
that sort of pickpocket orphan that you just took in randomly
yesterday looks exactly like your niece.
The other day, the the other day I recorded an episode for Goon
Pod Film Club of the film Guest House Paradiso with Rick Mayo
and Adrian Edison. And there's a portrait on the
wall in the guest House of Richie's great uncle Gervais.
And obviously it's just Rick mail in in old timey clothing.
And Chris, there is a Rick mail connection to Oliver, isn't
there? Well, sort of because sort of if
you've got the DVD of Filthy Rich and Cat Flap, it's cut out.
But in the original BBC production of the, I think it's
the last episode of Filthy Rich and Cat Flap where he's not
allowed to be in showbiz anymore.
So they consider being pickpockets and there's a whole,
there's about a probably about a 5 or 10 minutes Oliver rendition
where Richie sings Where is Love and.
Then. Eddie sings you've got to pick a
pocket or two while he's trying to pick his pockets, and there's
a lot of Consider yourself I. Should have been an Oliver.
You know, I went to the audition.
You know what they said? Sod off, ugly.
That's amazing. Were you there anyway?
Molly Tristo didn't do so badly from his life of crime.
No, thank you very much. No, Sari Bobby certainly did
not. After a brief spell of
pickpocketing, a rich, kindly old gentleman discovered that he
was the illegitimate child of his dead daughter and really a
member of the middle class. So he saved him.
Hey, Eddie, maybe the same thing will happen to us.
Yeah, maybe. Well, the chances are sort of
vaguely against him, really, aren't they?
No, no, no, no, it's all in the book.
Why, doctor? Mr. Brownlow will say in his
graph. But kindly boys, I know you not
these two little urchins Eddie and Richie study on the portrait
of my dead daughter. Surely your vouch says that
their faces are just like fannies.
It's. Made for yourself.
Chris, were you were you struck by how much of A RIP off slash
tribute to Oliver Twist Annies after watching this Annie for
your listeners, Tyler, another film that that we've covered on
our podcast. Yes, another musical.
Of course it has its similarities.
Very like just the dynamic. Like, you know, Miss Hannigan is
very much a Fagin sort of analogue.
Her brother Bruce, the played by Tim Curry, is very much like the
Bill Psyche sort of character. Daddy rulebox is brown.
Yeah, of course. Even like the Locket business
and all that, kind of, you know, trying to find the.
Yeah, I was just like, oh wow. Yeah.
Absolutely, Andy. Really.
I I saw Oliver, I saw Annie when I was a kid.
When it came, when did it come out?
82 Was it me? 80 I think. 80 really well I saw
it at the cinema whenever it came out.
The only thing I remember from that is the bald guy who I think
was is Alan Bates or. Albert Finney.
Daddy Warbucks.
Yes. Isn't that where it's a hard
knock life came from? Yeah.
Absolutely. And tomorrow?
Yeah. Oh yeah.
Yeah, yeah. And the character named Punjab.
Punjab and the ASP. And the ASP.
Yeah, brilliant. The spin off show that that
never happened. Yeah, this week I'm Punjab and
the ASP. I'd love that.
But yeah, you're right, it is very similar to Annie.
Yeah. I, I would, I wouldn't forgive
myself if I didn't mention that I've talked about the, the
Cameron Mackintosh revival that he did in the mid to late 90s.
And I went to see that and it was very, very good.
And so I didn't see the Jonathan Pryce playing Fagan, Instead I
saw Jim Dale. Playing Fagan?
Really. Yeah.
Can't see that. Was he any good?
It was disappointing. You know, he, he didn't go down
a flight of stairs on a trolley or examine Nancy with a
stethoscope. There was none of that in it at
all. But it was actually a very good
show. I think it was directed by Sam
Mendes. Oh.
Yeah, in his in his theatrical days before he moved on to
cabaret. But I did make some notes of
other people that were in it. Yes, because that that's kind of
interesting. Oliver was played by John Lee,
who is the little blonde boy from S Club 7.
Oh. Oh, right.
OK. And he was great.
Bill Sykes was one of the Mcgans.
Joe Mcgahn, I think. Oh.
The one who has forgets about. No, no, the other one, the upper
hand one. Oh, OK.
Who's the boss one? Yeah.
Not, not Renault. No, very good, but I think Mrs.
Sowerberry was played by Julia Deakin.
Depending on which TV show you prefer, she's Master in Spaced.
Or, of course, Jill from Alan Attraction, who rubs his face in
chocolate mousse. They go to the they go to the
owl sanctuary. They go to the owl sanctuary.
Yeah, she was Mrs. Salbridge. She was great.
Yes, it. Was very good.
That's why I thought I'd mention that because there was some
some. I'm trying to think.
Rowlands was in it as well. Oh, Nursee.
Yeah. No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Patty Rollins from Carry On. From Carry On, Yeah, yeah,
right. But I think she played the
Nursee character in it, which was Mr. Brownlow's housekeeper.
Right. I'm trying to think if they were
to remake this musical now, who would, who would who would they
cast as Fagan? I'm just trying to think who
would be a good Fagan? Who, who would be able to match
Ron Moody in terms of this the the sheer energy God?
That because Rowan Atkinson did it recently.
I don't approve of this because I just fucking don't like him,
but he's called it. No, it'd be Sacha Baron Kellen.
Yeah, it probably would be, wouldn't it?
Yeah, well, that that I feel like you'd probably want to give
it to a Jewish actor. Yeah.
And I can see him doing it. But yeah, it's, it's amazing the
number of people who've played him.
I mean at one of your previous guests, Griff, Rhys Jones.
LON Chaney. LON Chaney.
Absolutely. I don't think he's been a guest
on that. No, no, Victor Spinetti always
pops up. He's he's been Fagin.
I think Guinness, of course. I think David Sulis was the last
one in that awful Dodger Disney Plus series.
He played Fagin in that. I just read this the premise for
that and I thought. I'm not sure which.
Does he move to Australia and become a surgeon or something
or? He apparently he, he is in the
Dickens novel. Of course he is.
He's sent to Australia. Yeah.
He transported to Australia. Yeah.
So in this TV series, he's played by that nipper from Love
Actually, Yeah. Thomas Brodie Sangster.
Thomas Brodie Sangster, Yeah. OK, and so apparently he escapes
the prison and comes back to London and becomes a surgeon,
but Fagin is still alive because he's in it as well.
So, but he's executed. Him, but yeah, so it doesn't
follow the book and doesn't follow the musical, doesn't
follow the David Lean 1, doesn't follow any of them.
So I don't know, but definitely it must be quite.
Good. Yeah, it'd be good.
Yeah, he was. Eccleston did it a couple of
years ago, didn't he? Isn't that prequel?
One was taught by Reece Thomas. Was it just called Dodger?
Oh yeah, wasn't it Sabine Kingsley?
He was in the Yeah, he'd be good, Yeah.
What about some Neil Morrissey? Michael Caine did one a couple
of years ago as well. Didn't they?
Oh yeah, it was only like 3 years ago.
Twist, yeah. Where Rita Ora played the awful.
Dodge. Oh my God.
Oh geez. Yeah, that's the twist is a
clever title, you see. Yeah, yeah.
Oh, Tucker. Tucker White as he would have
turned up in it if they've been together.
There's got to be at some point. Do you remember?
Well, it was, it was on over here anyway.
They, they did a version of A Christmas Carol a few years ago
for T, for television with, I think Guy Pierce as Scrooge.
I like that, really. But it was a lot dark.
They they they made it dark, OK. And there was swearing and there
was, I think there was sex in it as well.
What? Yeah.
I don't know who with what.
Was Jake and Marley doing with those chains you see?
What? They call him Tiny Tim.
Yeah. And it's an enormous crutch.
But inevitably they're going to do something like that with
Oliver Twist, aren't they? That's going to be problematic.
There was one. It was another one called Twist,
but not the Michael Caine one where I think the awful Dodger
and Oliver were lovers. The awful Dodger.
So yeah, it was an American version, which was, yeah, a bit
out there. So yeah, it probably will that.
Will happen well, but it's it's the 2 1/2 hours flew by for me.
It it was after a bit of a shaky start.
Like you say, Robert, if you've got, what, 3 minutes of nothing?
Right at the beginning I was really concerned.
And then you got you got the boys singing in the workhouse.
But after that it it it really stepped up a gear and I just I
thoroughly enjoyed it. It just didn't seem it wasn't a
slog. So, so thank you for for wanting
to do this because it's, you know, it's a film that I
probably will watch one day again, right?
Yeah, I was. I really, really enjoyed it.
I thought slight dip in that second act just because it's not
as joyous and and fun. But the quality of the film
making, you know, I can see why this one best picture,
everything on the screen just looks amazing.
But just the production values, the set design, the staging, the
choreography, everything was just so, so well done.
And I was really pleased to watch this again.
So thank you. Yeah.
Definitely. I absolutely loved it.
I thought it was great to watch it again.
The only small criticisms I'd have is some of the songs you go
on. They do stay.
They welcome a little. Bit oh God, they do, yeah, I
mean. The Consider Yourself, which is
a great song and clearly the inspiration for every sperm is
sacred. It just goes on quite some time
where they're at the fish market, they're at the
fairground. But the ending with about 3000
people dancing is is quite remarkable and the same as Who
Will buy. Just the whole build up is
amazing, but it goes on for about 15 minutes.
You can actually see Jack Wilde go through puberty in real time,
yeah. Taking up smoking.
He's got a 5:00 shadow right into the.
Song. And of course the slight problem
is that Oliver as a character and potentially the performance
by Mark Lester and the girl who did the singing is a little bit
weak. But that's possibly meant to be
the case because, as we said, he's nowhere near as
interesting, yeah as everybody else in it.
So he just tones it down and everybody else really goes for
it. You know, I'm always loathed
because you just don't know what a director is saying to these
child actors. As well.
And I also don't want to criticize a child actor because
I think that's an awful thing to do.
It is even one that some, you know, donated spin to Michael
Jackson and possibly Father's children.
Even then, yeah, yeah. But other than that, yeah, I
absolutely. Loved it, I thought it was
great. Hands, hands down, Ron Moody is.
The stand out. Doing this and just just him,
just him with his flute, doing an Ian Anderson from Jethro Tull
on the rooftop, did you? Did you see that he was
apparently offered the role of Doctor Who post Patrick
Troughton? So he would have been the pit
Tweet I. Could see that.
Apparently it was one of his only regrets in his career.
But you know, what else is he? You know, performance like this,
you look, you look at it and go, this guy should be, you know,
there should be like several Oscars and his bloody cabinet.
Tyler as as you know, we we saw him in an episode of Tales of
the Unexpected, which was very good.
Oh yes, Oh yes. He's a wine chaser.
Yes, of course I forgot about that.
Of course, we talked about him on Goonpod recently because he
was in the film The Sandwich Man with starring Michael Benton,
who was also offered the role of Doctor Who, by the way.
But he said he wanted to write it and so they said no, so he
turned it down. Bloody idiot gentlemen.
As always, it's been a pleasure. What's coming up in terms of
shows? And you said critters.
Any any other shows coming up? Well, if yours comes out on
Wednesday, Critters is our Halloween special, so that'll be
coming out Wednesday or Thursday as well, OK.
Yep. We're doing.
After that, I think we decided on a, a, a london-based romantic
comedy, didn't we? So we're going to have a look at
one that everyone goes, oh, I remember that, which is this
year's love. Oh.
Which was a a high concept ROM com from the mid 90s with lots
of good indie music in it. I think I know I've heard of
that. Who's who's in that?
Kathy Burke is in it. Ian Hart.
Right. Thingy.
Henshall, Douglas. Henshall.
Right. And de Grey Scott, yeah, which I
remember enjoying a lot because it had swearing in it and good
music and stuff. All right, cool.
Yeah, so. And after that, with Fight Club,
someone's chosen. Oh, right.
We've got a few, you've got a few sort of guests waiting in
the wings really for. So we just, we've just got a
sequence them really, haven't we?
We've got. Yeah.
And just in case people haven't heard the times you've
previously been on Goonpod and they're not sure what still any
good is. The premise is that you you go
back and watch films or TV programs, but mainly films that
you enjoyed when you were younger to see if they are, as
the title goes, still any good. What's the what's the sort of
strike rate? Is it sort of 5050 good and bad
in terms of, you know, when you revisit these things?
I feel to my sugar and I actually think we're sort of
probably more 75% good. I'd say probably more than no.
We haven't had a stinker for a long time over we're.
Sold out, Tyler, Yeah. I think we're just being less
critical, maybe. And that was shit.
Yeah. We're, we're actually finding
the the fun, the diamond in the rough.
Yeah. Really.
Yeah. But, you know, we're we're
selling out I. Mean we've even enjoyed Orca,
the killer whale for God. 'S sake I know.
You need to try harder. You need to watch more shit
come. On that's the problem though, is
that you've got to be, you've got to have integrity with it.
So you've really got to have something we genuinely kind of
don't know. But there's so many films that
you know, are just going to be shit.
And then with such, you know, we've got kids, we've got we've
got day jobs. It's really hard to go OK, I
want to sit down for 90 minutes of what I know will be shit.
But I think, yeah, we've talked about Yellow Beard and for me,
Yellow Beard was the absolute pits of the film.
And I, I, it just wasn't for me. Yeah.
But the the majority are a pleasant surprise.
I think we've found we, we, we've managed to find the good
in quite a lot of what we've, yeah, we've seen even Hudson
Hawk we kind of enjoyed, believe it or not.
Right, OK, OK. Well listen, it is, it is
getting on now. It's we're recording this, it's
your Sunday night in in New Zealand and it's must be getting
on for 11:00 in the evening. Yeah, so but. 10:45 Time to get
some get in. We do have a a long weekend.
It's Labor Day tomorrow. Oh, right.
Yeah. Oh, right.
OK, so you're not working tomorrow?
Nice. It's not a school night, so it's
all right. Yeah, we've got a four day
weekend. It's really nice.
Oh, brilliant. OK, well, enjoy.
And as always, guys, it's great to have you have you on again.
And I guess we'll get you back more or less this time next year
to talk about something else. And we'll get you back as well.
Definitely love to. Brilliant.
Yeah, I just want to say, Tyler, you know, I have been so
enjoying the podcast lately. You've had some amazing guests.
Really. Thank you very much.
Conversations. Yeah.
Always really looking forward to the next episode of Goonpod.
Thank you very much. That's very touching.
It's always good to hear. In fact, got a mention in The
Times yesterday. Yes, I saw that.
Was that your third or fourth mention?
4th You've been in the Radio Times.
Haven't you? Oh, it was the Radio Times.
Been in the Radio Times? Yeah, yeah.
Brilligant. So it's obviously someone who
works for the Times, who's a listener, which is good.
It's. Always nice when you can cross
over into the mainstream. Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. We almost did, but it was live
by 10:30. OK, guys.
Well, thanks again and we will catch up again soon.
Yeah. Thanks a lot.
Thanks so much. Why should we break our backs
stupidly paying tax and to get some untaxed income?
Better pick a pocket or two. You got to pick a pocket or two
boys. You got to pick a pocket.