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It isn't fair at all on 
comedians that people say, well,

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I'd that I had that Griff Reese 
Jones at my dinner party the 

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other night and he wasn't funny 
at all. 

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But I mean, that's really not 
fair. 

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You have a sewage worker to 
dinner. 

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You don't say, Well, I don't 
even believe he was a sewage 

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worker. 
He didn't rummage in our toilet 

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once, You know, you don't. 
You don't expect people to, you 

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know, it's a job comedy like any
other. 

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And of course, Griff can be very
funny, for example. 

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But it's true. 
The pressure of all kinds on 

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comedians is immense. 
I'm an intolerable, I would have

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thought. 
The Hello and welcome to 

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Goonpod. 
My name is Tyler Adams, and this

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is a podcast in which me and my 
guests talk about comedy, with 

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the emphasis usually on Sellers,
Milligan Siekim, and so on. 

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But when I'm lucky enough to 
welcome to the show someone of 

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the caliber of this week's 
guest, pretty much everything is

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up for discussion. 
The guest in question is a 

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groundbreaking comedy producer 
and writer who was once 

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described by the Daily Mail that
most thoughtful and nuanced 

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representative of the 4th Estate
as a well known communist at 

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Cambridge. 
Welcome to the show, John Lloyd.

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Hi, Tyler Do. 
You recognize that description? 

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I do. 
And of course, it was the wrong 

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John Lloyd. 
They got the wrong guy. 

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Oh, really? 
No. 

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We didn't know that. 
No double page spread. 

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Well known communist at 
Cambridge. 

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I wasn't even a member of the 
Liberal Liberal Club. 

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I was so apolitical in my early 
20s, and it was in fact, the 

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financial journalist John Lloyd,
who edited the New Statesman, 

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who was a communist in 
Cambridge. 

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I know, slightly. 
But. 

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But it was interesting because 
in those days we just laughed 

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about it, you know, It was a 
stupid mistake. 

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I didn't sue anybody. 
I didn't, you know, get upset 

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about it. 
It was just like, yeah, OK, 

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hopeless journalism. 
Yeah, was it? 

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Was it? 
Am I correct in thinking was it 

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triggered by the puppet of 
Prince William on Spitting Image

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that that caused this? 
There was a big Ferrari about 

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the royal baby, as it was then 
known William as as he became, 

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because a brilliant young 
journalist on the, I think 

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Birmingham Mercury broke the 
story that we were doing a 

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puppet of a baby. 
And there was a lot of hand 

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wringing about, you know, how 
can they do this to an innocent 

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baby and all that other stuff as
if the baby would care to hoots.

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Yeah, it was actually brilliant 
publicity for Spitting Image. 

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Jeff Baker, his name was. 
He went on to be the publicist 

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for Paul McCartney and had 
rather an amazing career. 

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Oh, wow. 
OK, he spotted. 

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This was a good story and it was
splashed all over the Nationals.

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I don't know whether that was 
what got the mail to to run that

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absurd story because you know 
I've BBC trained. 

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We were trained to be balanced 
and and so on and it was 

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difficult in the early 80s with 
the Labour Party almost 

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invisible, to try and do a story
about them every every week, 

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which we did religiously. 
Yeah I want to I want to talk a 

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little bit more about Spitting 
Image if we get time shortly. 

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But obviously I wanted to get 
you on to talk about your career

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and and and whatnot but 
obviously this is a it's called 

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Goon pod so it it takes as its 
heart as its heart the the goons

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and them as a group and 
collectively sorry them as a 

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group and as individuals and I 
know that you I mean you I think

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you're you're I'd looked 
actually you're four months 

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younger than the Goon show John 
actually. 

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I'm high. 
That's a very good fact. 

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Although it was known as crazy 
people back then and then it 

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became the Goon Show a little 
bit later. 

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But I know that you you you did 
indicate to me that as a young 

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radio producer, you were once 
invited to give a talk to the 

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Goon Show, Preservation Society 
and. 

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You felt about a fraud, is that 
right? 

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Well, I I didn't know much about
them either. 

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It was really, it was the 
generation before me. 

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It was people who'd been young 
in the war, you know? 

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And it was the go to funny show 
as Python was for my generation.

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Yeah, but to be perfectly 
honest, as a kid I didn't really

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get what they were on about. 
It's not that I didn't like it, 

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it's just that it wasn't part of
of my landscape really. 

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There was another thing called 
the glums. 

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What was that in? 
Take it from here. 

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Take it from here. 
It's like I just had no idea. 

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These people seem to be bucking 
mad. 

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I never really grasped it and 
almost those sort of voice. 

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I don't. 
I honestly don't know what 

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they're on about. 
My I was much more the shows 

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that we listened to really 
religiously were the Navy Lark 

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because my dad was in the Navy. 
We thought that was hilarious. 

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Left hand down a bit and then 
the sound of a warship crashing 

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the Clitheroe kid. 
Really like the Clithero kid? 

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Yeah, we like that. 
We thought it was very funny and

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you know, sit around the roast 
chicken, Sunday lunch listening 

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to these things and it was a 
national institution and also 

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Round the horn and subsequently 
beyond our Ken. 

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Those were, yeah, really the 
things that influenced my sense 

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of humor, not so much the goons,
although Peter Sellers was very 

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influential to me because he did
a an album. 

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He did. 
Do you know it? 

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I do very much. 
So you know, Bell, I am Gateway 

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to the South. 
You know, I'll make the little 

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holes in the end of toothbrushes
and I used to know all the 

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voices from that album. 
That was really such a big deal 

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for me. 
But again, I didn't really know 

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that Peters Fellows was a goon 
joke person. 

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I just for some reason my my 
parents had very few albums in 

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their collection and that was 
one of them. 

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And I listened to it over and 
over and over again till I wore 

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it out. 
Very, very funny. 

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And still, it's still funny 
today, actually. 

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I think little holes in the car 
are put in manually, or in other

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words, once a year. 
I recently had a honour of 

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demonstrating Mar Craft before 
the only of I He stopped by one 

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day for a couple of words. 
I did not understand either of 

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them. 
It's peripheral to me, the goons

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in the sense that, for example, 
I loved Michael Bentin's. 

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It's a mad, mad, mad, mad world.
I mean, we you know when that. 

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It's a square world. 
It's a square world, right? 

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Yeah. 
Yeah. 

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Sorry. 
We we love that. 

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All the little, you know, puppy 
things. 

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And we just thought that was 
brilliant. 

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So being invited to talk to the 
Goon Show Preservation Society 

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was fraudulent even then. 
I mean, went very well. 

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It was very enjoyable, but I 
don't know how. 

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What on earth? 
I said. 

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I can't remember. 
Well, I was. 

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I was interested to get you on 
because I want to talk about 

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your career, obviously, but but 
also, I mentioned that you're 

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four months younger than The 
Goon Show, and its first 

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producer, of course, was Dennis 
Maiden Wilson, and I know that 

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he was a bit of a mentor to you.
He was, he was. 

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He took me under his wing as a 
very baby telly producer. 

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I think I even met him when I 
was still working in radio and 

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and a wonderful wonderful 
radical marvelous person not 

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just the Goon show but of course
till death is due part. 

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A real ground breaking producer.
You, you probably know, Tyler 

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famously that the when it became
called The Goon Show, I suppose 

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must be in the second series. 
And it went up before a thing 

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called Program Review Board, 
which was the, you know, the 

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great and the good of the BBC 
sitting around opining on 

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whether programs are any good or
not. 

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And in those days there were 
very much Hungarians on the 

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review board because there's 
many immigrants, very 

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interesting, very intelligent. 
So you'd often have this 

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conversation, this Hungarian and
the chairman saying you know 

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this is very not British, this 
is this show is not British. 

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And one of these things, The 
Goon Show was up and somebody 

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said, now, has anyone here come 
across this go on show? 

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Because it strikes me very 
unfunny indeed. 

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They were. 
They were. 

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That was it with us. 
You know, the management is 

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always kind of a couple of beats
behind the curve somehow. 

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Wasn't tennis quite a a prolific
smoker and drinker and all the 

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rest of it as well? 
Yeah. 

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Well I I'm, I'm, to be honest, 
everybody was. 

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I mean people did not look after
their health terribly well. 

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There was a lot of smoking and 
drinking. 

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You quite often in the 
television gallery, you couldn't

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really see the screens because 
there was so much smoking going 

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on. 
And it really that lasted really

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right up till John Burt's 
director generalship where he 

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sort of you know decided that 
people should go to the gym more

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often than they installed a 
handbag shop in the foyer of 

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broadcaster of television 
Center. 

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I remember I thought, OK, these 
are not my people anymore. 

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But yeah, it was, it was madcap,
you know, radio and telly back 

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00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:11,360
in the day. 
It was very, it was very free. 

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Everything was very instinctual,
very People commissioned 

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programs on the gut, you know, 
because as a young producer, my 

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head of department looked me in 
the eye and say, are you really 

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sure you want to do this? 
And I go, yeah, I'm absolutely 

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sure. 
OK, fine, off you go. 

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Make a pilot. 
Please don't screw up. 

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That was the way it worked. 
And, you know, but it's funny, 

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each generation, you know, grows
older, I suppose is probably the

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00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:43,800
same for me. 
But I remember Dennis accosting 

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me in the BBC bar after one 
episode of not the 9:00 news 

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saying you've gone too far you 
you really gone to via John you 

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you absolutely. 
This is disgraceful from from 

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the man. 
Of course he was the the madcap 

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radical of his day. 
In fact they that go on show 

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conversation happened with the 
Program View board. 

185
00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:10,440
Dennis allegedly went up to the 
roof of Broadcasting House and 

186
00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:15,640
stood atop the building where it
just above the Eric Gill statues

187
00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:18,880
and threatened to jump off the 
roof unless the Goon Show was 

188
00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:21,440
recommissioned. 
I heard that before, really. 

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00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:23,480
Yeah, yeah. 
Wow. 

190
00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:26,600
No. 
Because it was driven by, you 

191
00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:30,840
know, you sort of think of the 
BBC in the old days as being a 

192
00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,760
bit stiff, you know, and there 
were a lot of tweed suits around

193
00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:37,920
and all that kind of thing. 
But it was driven by passion and

194
00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:41,760
the management understood that 
if somebody cared that much, 

195
00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:43,320
they weren't going to cancel it,
you know? 

196
00:11:43,680 --> 00:11:47,040
Yeah, yeah. 
And people really cared about 

197
00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:49,560
what they did. 
People are not very well paid, 

198
00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:53,480
but they really believed in the 
project. 

199
00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:59,080
And you know, the whole Rythian 
ethic, which was that common 

200
00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:03,400
people, as it were, might not 
get this yet, but they will come

201
00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:05,000
round. 
If it's any good, they'll come 

202
00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:06,560
round. 
And people had a very, very 

203
00:12:06,560 --> 00:12:12,440
strong sense of quality, which 
had, you know, there's not 

204
00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:19,440
necessarily any correlation to 
speak of between quality and, 

205
00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:23,960
you know, rating success. 
And there's a very long 

206
00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:27,480
tradition of the BBC of sticking
with things that weren't getting

207
00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:29,720
the figures. 
Python's a very good example. 

208
00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,560
It rated very poorly. 
It went out very late at night. 

209
00:12:34,560 --> 00:12:37,520
It was a very cult thing to 
begin with, You know, a lot of 

210
00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:40,800
students and things, simply 
faulty towers, which. 

211
00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:43,000
Only faulted horses as well 
that. 

212
00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:47,920
Oh, I lived along for two 
series, I think before, yeah. 

213
00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:54,040
I mean, I really wouldn't have a
career if the BBC had cancelled 

214
00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:57,920
a Wobbly series after the first 
go. 

215
00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:00,280
You know, not an Icon News 
Blackadder. 

216
00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:03,720
A lot of my friends I'm 
spitting, which is an ITV show 

217
00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:05,840
of course, but a lot of my 
friends wouldn't talk to me 

218
00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:07,880
after the first series. 
They thought it was so terrible 

219
00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:12,520
because if you're going to do 
something that's ground 

220
00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:16,280
breaking, it's not easy, you 
know, people are late adopters, 

221
00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:18,360
they prefer something that's 
familiar. 

222
00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:23,680
And, you know, it's like Sun Tzu
said about in The Art of War. 

223
00:13:23,680 --> 00:13:27,200
You know no plan survives 
contact with the enemy, no 

224
00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:29,880
matter how good the idea. 
It takes a while to get it 

225
00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:35,160
right, you know, to to tinker 
with it and get the edges sorted

226
00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:40,000
out. 
Yeah, but that nowadays, you 

227
00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:42,560
know you don't get a second 
series if it, if it doesn't 

228
00:13:42,560 --> 00:13:46,080
rate, that's it, you know you've
got you've got one chance. 

229
00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:50,280
Well, The Office is another very
famous example is nobody really 

230
00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:54,040
understood what on earth that 
was and it was put out very late

231
00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:56,720
at night and people found it. 
Royal Family is another very 

232
00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:58,760
good example. 
Everyone thought that this very 

233
00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,360
niche for people sitting on the 
sofa or whatever it was. 

234
00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:03,520
Yeah. 
This is not ABBC thing. 

235
00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:08,240
This is a culture thing, is that
people want certainty in art. 

236
00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,560
Now you know they want to be 
sure that this is going to the 

237
00:14:11,560 --> 00:14:16,560
Beethoven or Van Gogh is going 
to be world famous off the first

238
00:14:16,560 --> 00:14:18,400
few bars of musical the first 
painting. 

239
00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:20,720
That's not the way it works. 
You know if you're going to be 

240
00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:23,840
any good, if you're going to be 
memorable, you're going to be 

241
00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:25,920
booed roundly for your first 
opera. 

242
00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:30,440
And you know the impression is 
you know obviously were that was

243
00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:33,520
the IT was an insult. 
The impression is like what was 

244
00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:37,520
this a vague impression of 
proper painting and that that's 

245
00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:40,960
the thing that it's it's I 
suppose it's my zone really. 

246
00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:46,440
I'm not really comfortable doing
something which is a brand 

247
00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,480
leader. 
I like to be somebody who 

248
00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:51,040
everyone thinks this is never 
going to work. 

249
00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:55,280
This is absolutely hopeless. 
I guess most of the shows you've

250
00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:58,400
been involved with were largely 
devised by you, or sometimes in 

251
00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:01,000
collaboration with others, but 
you're not one for for coming to

252
00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:02,880
a project late when it's already
well established. 

253
00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:05,160
Basically, no. 
I I've never been a gun for 

254
00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:07,040
hire. 
I've always done, yeah, trying 

255
00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:09,920
to do new things. 
Virtually all the things I've 

256
00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:13,680
done have been collaborative, 
usually with at least one other 

257
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:19,400
producer and you know Spitting 
Image obviously is a huge team 

258
00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,440
of people all of whom 
contributed a small amount to 

259
00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:25,120
make what it became you know, 
you can't. 

260
00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:30,360
I used to get quite back in the 
day when I cared quite cross 

261
00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:32,720
when people would say things 
like was spitting image your 

262
00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:35,680
idea And I said well I didn't 
have the idea for doing puppets 

263
00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:39,320
or not that I thought news. 
But really it's the group effort

264
00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:43,880
and and actually pity, which is 
a terrible idea on paper, which 

265
00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:47,440
is we're going to have 1000 
puppets of famous people. 

266
00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:49,240
Oh yeah, How you going to afford
that? 

267
00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:52,760
And it's going to go out at 
10:00 at night and get 50 

268
00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:54,960
million viewers. 
I mean, obviously that is not a 

269
00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:58,960
business plan that stacks up. 
It's a completely hopeless idea.

270
00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:03,200
Rather like Leonardo da Vinci 
saying I think people could fly 

271
00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:08,000
to the moon. 
Oh yeah, and how you've you've 

272
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:10,320
got a thing looks a bit like a 
helicopter, but have you 

273
00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:14,400
invented the internal combustion
engine and, you know, rocket 

274
00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,680
fuel and, you know, the 
computer? 

275
00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:23,760
It requires a lot to do 
something which, you know, it's 

276
00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:27,360
like the famous Woody Allen one.
I I liked the early funny ones. 

277
00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,280
You know, the people to say 
about it is films when nobody 

278
00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:32,920
watched them. 
But then it with hindsight 

279
00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:36,160
everyone thinks, Oh yeah, I was 
there when it was new. 

280
00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,440
No, you weren't. 
Most people aren't. 

281
00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:42,200
So it's interesting with the 
goons, you know that there's 

282
00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:48,320
something so bonkers could have 
you know apart from a little bit

283
00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:50,400
of wobble with the management 
really. 

284
00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:54,080
You know, the nation took the 
goons to to its heart really 

285
00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:57,320
very quickly and maybe that's a 
war thing. 

286
00:16:57,320 --> 00:16:59,760
You know, you've just lived 
under through the most terrible 

287
00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:07,880
survival thing and and suddenly 
everyone's, you know, dressing 

288
00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:12,680
up in silly costumes and larking
about because, you know, they're

289
00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:16,640
so grateful to be alive. 
Did you work with Milligan at 

290
00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:18,480
all? 
Yes, twice. 

291
00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:28,280
And Spike obviously as a as a 
sort of lifetime comedy servant,

292
00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:32,560
of course, a genius, you know, 
of course, brilliant books that 

293
00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:34,920
you know. 
And as as of having researched 

294
00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:39,640
him since, not as a consumer as 
a child, but as an adult, you 

295
00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:44,120
think, well, they're very few 
people who've made such a dent 

296
00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:48,480
as Spike has. 
But, you know, famously a very 

297
00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:52,680
mercurial person. 
Could be extremely difficult. 

298
00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:56,440
Could be utterly delightful and 
charming and you just never knew

299
00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:59,600
which spike you were even going 
to get. 

300
00:18:01,120 --> 00:18:05,440
You know the famous saying was 
never worked with dogs, children

301
00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:09,760
or Spike Milligan. 
That was the the the business 

302
00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:11,520
saying. 
And so the first time I worked 

303
00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:17,020
with him was on a new newish 
quotation series called Quote UN

304
00:18:17,020 --> 00:18:21,280
quote that ran for 40 years. 
I think it was very early on. 

305
00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:26,360
Yeah. 
And I learned as a young 

306
00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:30,320
producer that people actually 
really like doing radio. 

307
00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:32,480
You don't have to dress up. 
There's no makeup. 

308
00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:35,480
You know, the car parking is 
very easy. 

309
00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:38,200
You just pitch up, you do your 
thing and you go home, go to the

310
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:39,120
pub. 
It's lovely. 

311
00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:45,480
So we, if you look up the 
casting of the first series of 

312
00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:47,760
quote UN quote, it's really 
good. 

313
00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:51,520
I mean, it's Tom Stoppard, 
there's Jonathan Miller, Spike, 

314
00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:52,800
as I say. 
No. 

315
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:55,360
No, it's fantastic. 
I mean every week. 

316
00:18:55,360 --> 00:18:56,600
So it wasn't nearest Hughes. 
Every. 

317
00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:00,760
Week No, no, no it was was 
really it was very good actually

318
00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:05,960
the early quote UN quote we were
very very brave and and people 

319
00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:12,440
delivered and so Spike was on 
with Terry Wogan. 

320
00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:17,680
I come with the 4th person was, 
but I had, as a young single man

321
00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:22,960
been watching Telly 1 and I saw 
this program called I think it's

322
00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:25,240
called Man Alive must have been 
made by Granada. 

323
00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:32,280
And there was a incredibly 
beautiful young reporter on this

324
00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:36,640
thing called Anna Ford wearing a
sort of white French Mac and her

325
00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:38,920
hair blowing in the wind. 
And I I said I was single. 

326
00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:41,680
I thought, gosh, I'd really like
to meet her. 

327
00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:45,640
She looks really something else.
So I phoned her office and said,

328
00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,400
I'm hey, I'm work for the BBC. 
I'm in radio. 

329
00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,160
She fancy being on a panel for a
quotations quiz. 

330
00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:54,160
And of course nobody's ever 
asked. 

331
00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:57,280
And who's wrote a report at that
question for at least of all 

332
00:19:57,280 --> 00:19:58,560
her. 
And so she she said yes. 

333
00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,840
And afford your title is. 
Eating people is wrong. 

334
00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:07,840
Eating people is wrong. 
Eating people is wrong. 

335
00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:15,360
Somebody like Desmond des des 
Desmond O'Connor. 

336
00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:19,840
So she turned up at the Paris 
Theatre in Lower Regent Street 

337
00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:23,200
and of course Terry Wogan and 
Spike Milligan, who was sitting 

338
00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:25,840
either side of her, immediately 
fell completely in love with 

339
00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:30,480
her. 
And so we're all getting them so

340
00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:34,320
well the game sort of was 
falling to bits and Spike said I

341
00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:36,800
think we need to go and get a 
bottle of wine, come do with 

342
00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,240
this BBC coffee. 
And during the recording in 

343
00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:43,640
front of 500 people, he went 
outside the Paris studios, got 

344
00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,080
into his mini, drove to an off 
license and got a bottle of wine

345
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:50,920
and came back a bottle of wine 
and several glasses. 

346
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,960
And it went with a real swing 
that that episode. 

347
00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:57,720
And afterwards, of course Terry 
Wogan and Spike. 

348
00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:01,280
Milligan, being super famous, 
took Anna Ford out to dinner and

349
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:03,080
I never got to meet her. 
No. 

350
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:08,320
Yeah, they didn't invite you. 
No Sliding Doors moment, really,

351
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,080
but it was. 
Anyway, I've got to know Anna 

352
00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:15,840
since she's just the most 
delightful person, and shared 

353
00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:21,160
that story with her, obviously. 
And so that was the first time 

354
00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:26,960
and then in the mid 70s. 
And then it was probably 20 

355
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:33,400
years before I met Spike again 
and it was a commercial when I 

356
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,920
was I directed ads in the late 
80s and 90s for about 10-12 

357
00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,280
years. 
Yeah, and didn't work entirely 

358
00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:45,760
at all apart from that. 
And I Spike was cast in this ad.

359
00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:48,480
I can't even remember the 
product was nothing terribly 

360
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:52,040
interesting. 
And I called him up and said, 

361
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:54,200
you know, what sort of set would
you like? 

362
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:55,640
And he said, well, I really 
don't mind. 

363
00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:57,080
I'll just turn up and do the 
thing. 

364
00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:01,520
And so I thought of what I 
thought was a funny idea for a 

365
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:03,960
set. 
When he arrived on the set, he 

366
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:07,200
said, whose is this pathetic 
idea for the set? 

367
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,320
And I said it's mine, Mr. 
Milligan. 

368
00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,280
He goes, well, it's the 
unfunniest thing I've ever seen 

369
00:22:16,360 --> 00:22:17,840
and it was very difficult 
actually. 

370
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:22,880
I was really, I was appalled 
that I'd upset him and he's 

371
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:27,920
quite cross. 
But I don't know, somehow we got

372
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:31,400
talking, you know, and we 
discovered but that we're both 

373
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,720
have Irish roots. 
So that was one good thing and 

374
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:38,120
then that we both very keen on 
rugby. 

375
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,840
So we we sort of bonded and it 
yeah, and actually went very 

376
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,560
well in the end. 
But he we could, he could just 

377
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:47,880
go off on one like that, you 
know, And you never knew whether

378
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,680
he was going to literally as he 
did was quote UN, quote, 

379
00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,760
literally walk out of the door 
and disappear for half an hour 

380
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,920
or whether he was going to 
mollify and be brilliant. 

381
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:00,360
Well, he could now. 
He could turn on a dime. 

382
00:23:00,360 --> 00:23:04,280
Really. 
His moods and and what not I 

383
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:08,320
like as well the the fact that 
so when when not the 9:00 news 

384
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:12,360
was that the first series at 
least, which I know was a bit of

385
00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:14,960
a it was. 
It wasn't a disaster, of course,

386
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,120
but it was seat of the pants 
kind of stuff the first series, 

387
00:23:18,120 --> 00:23:19,840
wasn't it? 
It's, you know, you're finding a

388
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:24,840
feat. 
I think that's, you know, I I 

389
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:27,840
knew Chris Langham oddly better 
than all of the others really. 

390
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:29,480
But. 
Well, he was who I was coming to

391
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:31,520
because he was a link with 
Milligan, of course. 

392
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:36,000
Yeah, he obviously worked on the
Q series with Milligan with him 

393
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:42,800
and but he, you know Chris also,
you know he's a he's a 

394
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:48,160
complicated person and he wasn't
right for the chemistry 

395
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,320
ultimately. 
And it was only when we elevated

396
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,320
Griffiths Jones to one of the 
main four that it suddenly 

397
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:59,320
started to gel. 
And, you know, we were finding 

398
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:01,840
our feet. 
And I think one of the things 

399
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:07,080
that we were trying to find a 
new style that was uniquely us. 

400
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:11,280
And I think you'll see that in 
sketches like Gerald the Gorilla

401
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:16,200
or the famous sketch about Monty
Python, you know, The Life of 

402
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:20,360
Python, the first series, or 
Andy Hamilton's wonderful sketch

403
00:24:20,360 --> 00:24:26,120
about the stunt, Pope. 
There were we was trying to find

404
00:24:26,120 --> 00:24:30,560
what our unique voice was and 
Chris was slightly a kind of 

405
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:34,000
drag anchor, always trying to 
pull it back to what Spike would

406
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:35,760
have done or something like 
that. 

407
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:41,200
And you know it is very 
difficult when you're trying to.

408
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:44,200
I mean, all companies 
essentially the same thing, 

409
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,640
obviously trying to make people 
laugh, but the flavour of it, 

410
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:52,480
the style of doing it is it 
takes time to to find that 

411
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:54,320
voice. 
And it was only really when 

412
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:59,240
Chris left that we suddenly 
found, OK, this is what we do, 

413
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,320
which is not like Monty Python, 
it's not like the Goon Show, 

414
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,560
it's it's something else. 
And I think that's true today. 

415
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:09,400
I think that when you see a 
good, not that I couldn't use 

416
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:11,360
sketches, not like anything 
else. 

417
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:18,040
Yeah, because I I know that 
Rowan tended to be the one that 

418
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,240
most people talked about. 
In terms of. 

419
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:26,560
But I I always, I always sort of
gravitate towards Mel Smith in 

420
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,240
everything, to be honest, 
because he brings a real 

421
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:33,400
naturalistic style to everything
he appears in. 

422
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,120
And is it? 
Is it true that you offered him 

423
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:41,320
not the 9:00 news the day he was
planning on giving up showbiz 

424
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:42,840
and going to work for his 
father? 

425
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:44,040
Is that? 
Is that correct? 

426
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:50,960
So I found out many years later,
Yeah, and what he couldn't do, 

427
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,200
it's nowadays called the pilot, 
but there was no pilot for 

428
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,680
Northern Hancock News. 
There was AI was given a series 

429
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:01,600
of 6 without a pilot, rushed 
around trying to find people, 

430
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:03,680
and asked Mel to be in it. 
And he couldn't do it because 

431
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,320
he's working at the Royal Court 
as an assistant director. 

432
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:11,160
But it definitely was. 
He was about to give up theater 

433
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:15,000
and go back to work for his dad.
He was a bookie in Chiswick and 

434
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,360
that gave him the the sort of 
hand hold. 

435
00:26:18,360 --> 00:26:20,600
And then the series was 
cancelled after the first 

436
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,080
episode because the general 
election was called by Jim 

437
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,920
Callahan. 
And I was able to get back to 

438
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,040
Mel and say we've made it. 
Well, sort of a pilot was the 

439
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:31,320
first episode, but fortunately 
it never went out. 

440
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,720
And he came around to my house 
and I showed him it and he said,

441
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,000
you know what, John? 
That's the unfunniest half hour 

442
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:40,840
of television I've literally 
ever seen. 

443
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:44,520
Because again, we we really 
didn't know what we were doing. 

444
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:46,200
I'd never made any telly in my 
life. 

445
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,120
I was a radio guy. 
Yeah. 

446
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,680
Mel was such, you're right. 
Tyler was perceptive. 

447
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:57,880
Mel was such a central person in
in northern Halicop news because

448
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:03,880
he it was his naturalistic 
acting style that became the 

449
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,240
sort of hallmark you know the 
Python thing is, you know oh 

450
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,920
hello missus, pepper pot. 
You know, funny voices and 

451
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,280
people are called things like 
Colonel Voll Strangler. 

452
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:17,320
And so it's very much in that 
air to the goon's tradition, I 

453
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,840
would say, and not the 9:00 news
is a different thing. 

454
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:26,400
It's trying to parody television
much more realistically and 

455
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,200
exactly. 
And we used to have these two 

456
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,800
methods. 
We'd get, you know, scripts in 

457
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:37,320
and, you know, very often they 
would be sort of by the book 

458
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:39,560
scripts and not the nightclub 
news. 

459
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:41,880
They were known as knock, knock.
Come in, Perkins. 

460
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,720
Sketches. 
And there was weird, you know, 

461
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:45,280
not long. 
Yes. 

462
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,720
Come in, Perkins. 
Hello, Sir. 

463
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:50,960
Now, Perkins, how long have you 
been at this zoo? 

464
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,880
I've been at the zoo 64 years, 
Sir. 

465
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:56,160
Yes, Perkins. 
And do you know what a 

466
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:57,880
hippopotamus is? 
No, Sir. 

467
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:00,960
You know that it's like a yeah, 
it's got. 

468
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,120
A sort of template writes itself
virtually, yeah. 

469
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:11,200
Mel's great contribution was to 
take the dialogue that was sort 

470
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:15,400
of like out of a sort of manual 
of comedy script writing. 

471
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,040
Yeah, very funny and all that, 
and make it like he meant it. 

472
00:28:19,120 --> 00:28:21,360
And so we had these two methods 
called roughening and 

473
00:28:21,360 --> 00:28:24,480
plumpening. 
And roughening was mucking about

474
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:28,360
the dialogue so that it was the 
way it had pauses and arms and 

475
00:28:28,360 --> 00:28:30,760
ears in it, the way a person 
would really speak. 

476
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,240
It was a really marvellous thing
that he did. 

477
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:38,280
And then Plumpling was adding in
extra jokes to the script, which

478
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,080
we sort of kick around in 
rehearsal. 

479
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,600
He had that at at his best, not 
the 9:00 news. 

480
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,360
A bit like Blackout has that 
very dense style, which is the 

481
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:48,160
jokes just keep on coming at 
you. 

482
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:48,840
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

483
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,120
It just there's never a moment 
where there isn't another joke 

484
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,880
just lurking around the corner. 
Two please. 

485
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:02,240
Are you out at 18? 
I'm 29. 

486
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:08,480
You don't look 29 for me. 
Well, I am. 

487
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:16,760
How old's the jail bait? 
My wife is also 29. 

488
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:19,360
Have you got passports to prove 
it? 

489
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:22,360
Look, is this some kind of a 
joke? 

490
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,320
Are you sure you wouldn't prefer
to go and play? 

491
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:29,320
No, I'd like to see the film, 
please. 

492
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,960
I'm afraid that's impossible 
until you can prove you're 18. 

493
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:34,640
You see, people are maturing a 
lot younger these days. 

494
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,280
Sonny say Can't tell. 
Apparently one in three 

495
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,120
schoolgirls has a teenage child 
by the age of 14. 

496
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:44,440
Listen. 
Listen, I'm 29 and I look it. 

497
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:50,160
How old are you then? 
9292 Well, there you go. 

498
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:51,440
You see, appearances can be 
deceptive. 

499
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,600
Look. 
Come on, come on, come on. 

500
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,480
Your long head layabout. 
Hurry up. 

501
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:56,560
Get back to school where you 
belong. 

502
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:58,800
Hey, what? 
Look, if you can't get in, why 

503
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,400
don't you just accept it, eh? 
And let some adults get in and 

504
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:03,280
see the show. 
Look, I am an adult. 

505
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:04,960
I've got a job and I wear suits.
Who? 

506
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,760
Does he think he's fooling? 
That's a disgrace that we become

507
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,160
a nation of liars. 
I haven't heard a true word 

508
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,640
spoken since, Lord Lucan said. 
I'm just going down the path. 

509
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,920
They're probably on drugs. 
Look, I'm not on bloody drugs. 

510
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,440
Don't you swear in front of me, 
young man. 

511
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,640
It's a disgrace, isn't it? 
Ever since the Queen married 

512
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:26,600
that Greek, it's been bloody 
this and bloody that. 

513
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,800
Just shut up and let me in. 
I'm nearly 30 for Christ. 

514
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:32,360
'S sake. 
I don't care how bloody hell you

515
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,240
are. 
It'll be 150 for all I can. 

516
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:35,040
You're not coming in. 
Out. 

517
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,160
You can't do that. 
I voted for Margaret Thatcher 

518
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:39,400
and I know what I bloody well 
like now. 

519
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:45,280
Tremendous integrity as an 
actor. 

520
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:50,640
And Rowan caught that off Mel 
because he thought, OK, this guy

521
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,720
really knows what he's doing. 
I think Rowan learned a lot from

522
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:54,880
Mel. 
Oh really? 

523
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,160
OK, And they a lot of their 
partnerships. 

524
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,760
I often thought, I wonder what 
would have happened if instead 

525
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,360
of it being Smith and Jones, it 
would have been Smith and 

526
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:06,200
Atkinson because. 
Blimey. 

527
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,840
They really got the point of 
each other on the set. 

528
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,160
You know, they've they've formed
an amazingly creative 

529
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:14,360
partnership between them. 
I. 

530
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,240
Don't know if this was directly 
related to Mel, but you've 

531
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,360
you've gone a record and said 
that the best comedy is where if

532
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,160
you turn the sound down, it 
looks like it could be serious 

533
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,360
drama. 
Well, that's the comedy I like. 

534
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:33,200
I can't say that it's the best, 
but I I like it that if you do 

535
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:37,760
it really well, that's so well 
acted that you don't know it's 

536
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:39,520
funny until you hear what 
they're saying. 

537
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,520
And you can see that for 
example, is definitely 

538
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:45,880
something. 
Well, Ryan always had a bit of 

539
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,040
that, the famous schoolmaster 
sketch. 

540
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,600
There's no hint that this guy 
thinks it's funny. 

541
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:54,760
He's being really cruel and 
vicious. 

542
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:59,120
And that of course is that's the
bit of Rowan's acting ability I 

543
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:05,880
love is the very dark stuff. 
I I'm less keen on the Mr. 

544
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:10,000
Beanie thing. 
So I like him when he's the dark

545
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,160
side of Blackadder is very, very
strong I think. 

546
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:17,240
And again, that's something was 
definitely a lot of Mel Smith in

547
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,680
there I think. 
OK, because obviously Rowan 

548
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,640
left, Not the 9:00 news. 
Or at least he basically said at

549
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,240
a dinner, didn't he? 
Sorry chaps, be very nice 

550
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:28,800
working with you, but I'm going 
off to. 

551
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,560
Yes. 
To do something else and he went

552
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,720
off and made what was originally
going to be called one of the 

553
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,280
working titles, Prince Edmund 
and his two Friends. 

554
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,760
That's what I understand, yes. 
And I didn't do the pilot, which

555
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:43,600
eventually became the Black 
Adder. 

556
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:50,000
It was produced by John Howard 
Davis and I think I'm right in 

557
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,560
saying and, but after they'd 
done it, they came back and 

558
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:55,240
said, oh please, please do the 
series. 

559
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:59,080
And I I kind of relented. 
Can I can I just say because 

560
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,000
I've said this many times, I've 
said it to him, Blue in the 

561
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:02,360
face, and people don't believe 
it. 

562
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:07,800
But after Black added two, the 
blackout of the first series is 

563
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:09,640
my favorite. 
Well, I'm. 

564
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,920
I'm so pleased you say that, 
Tyler, because again, like the 

565
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,120
first series and not the 9:00 
news, it's not without merit. 

566
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,640
And actually the third episode 
in the first series, the 

567
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,920
Archbishop actually won an Emmy.
So it wasn't somebody thought we

568
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,040
were doing something properly. 
But we. 

569
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:34,680
And again, it's partly my fault.
They re showed the pilot on UKTV

570
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:38,680
recently as part of a new 
documentary, and it was 

571
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:42,640
perfectly obvious to me what the
mistakes we made were, which was

572
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:46,320
with you can see what look 
looking at the pilot now with 

573
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:50,520
all that distance, you can see 
immediately that Rowan's 

574
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,000
skiving, you know, scheming 
character is the core of the 

575
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:55,840
thing. 
And the rest of the royal family

576
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,080
really completely irrelevant. 
Nobody cares about them. 

577
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:03,800
But we kept those elements which
meant it a bit hard work and 

578
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,720
then I had the stupid idea of 
giving this silly pudding bull 

579
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:11,000
haircut which has made him into 
a nerd which is hard to relate 

580
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:16,280
to and but nonetheless you can 
see the beginnings of classic 

581
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:20,719
Blackadder with that the 
triangle of Baldrick and you 

582
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,679
know Lord Persky and and 
Blackadder working together. 

583
00:34:23,679 --> 00:34:26,679
There's some very, very good 
bits in there and of course some

584
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,600
great dialogue with the, you 
know, they're going through the 

585
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:33,520
sacred relics and the Archbishop
of all the Sacred. 

586
00:34:33,679 --> 00:34:36,960
What, what Jesus made in the 
carpentry shop is a very nice 

587
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:41,239
cheese board here. 
It's just marvellously cheeky. 

588
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,600
Look, I can. 
I can tell you that in the last 

589
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,600
out of the last, probably 5 or 6
episodes of Goon Pod with 

590
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:56,000
previous guests, for various 
reasons, we've we've talked 

591
00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:01,120
about the first series of 
Blackadder, specifically the 

592
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:05,960
Witch Smeller Persuasion, yeah. 
And the Queen of Spain's beard 

593
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,480
with wonderful Mary Margulies 
and broadband. 

594
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:13,360
Yeah, yeah. 
It's a funny thing that this 

595
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,640
sort of it's almost a path and 
that you can't escape, which the

596
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:22,680
first series has radical things 
in it which are really 

597
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,640
marvellous, but it's messy 
because people don't really know

598
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,840
what they're doing. 
And then there's a golden period

599
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:33,320
in the middle where people have 
completely got how to make it. 

600
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:37,280
They found their voice, but it's
still really surprising, 

601
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:38,800
including to the people who are 
making it. 

602
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:43,640
Of course, by the time you get 
to the 4th or 5th series, you've

603
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:47,840
sort of got what your joke is, 
You know, with not 9:00 news, it

604
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:51,920
was stock footage of the Queen 
Mother on a horse, and the horse

605
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,240
jolts slightly and there's a 
farting noise, You know, that's 

606
00:35:55,240 --> 00:35:58,200
what we do. 
It's like with Monty Python, 

607
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:02,960
it's Hell's Grannies. 
You know, you take 2 completely 

608
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:05,640
incompatible things and you put 
them together. 

609
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,480
So a philosopher's football 
match, you know, once you get 

610
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:14,800
that which which happened to 
Python the 4th series was really

611
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,320
well made. 
But somehow it did stop being 

612
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:19,960
funny it because there's no 
surprise in this anymore. 

613
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:24,200
And I think that's slightly true
of of not the 9:00 news. 

614
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:26,600
I don't think it's true of Black
Adder, but I think when people 

615
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,800
say oh you should do repeat 
that, I think it's such a 

616
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,440
terrible idea. 
You can't top the end of 

617
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:35,360
blackout of four. 
You just can't do that. 

618
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,760
You can get back from that and 
do another series. 

619
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:41,080
It would be. 
It would be insulting, I think. 

620
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:43,880
Would you say that the last 
episode of Blackout of goes 

621
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,040
forth? 
Because what are your mantras if

622
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:49,040
you like? 
Is disaster as a gift? 

623
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:51,600
Yes, it is. 
Would you say that the ending of

624
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,400
Blackout of Four as you 
originally shot it out of the 

625
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:57,360
disaster came a gift? 
Yes. 

626
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,320
I mean it's a story I've I've 
told before. 

627
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:05,480
If so forgive me listeners, if 
you've heard it, but the way 

628
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,360
Blackadder worked was that 
everything was workshopped to 

629
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:12,320
death in the in the studio, 
every line was gone over, every 

630
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:14,440
syllable was gone over by 
everybody. 

631
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:19,240
And of course, almost all the 
actors are also well known 

632
00:37:19,240 --> 00:37:22,400
writers and they weren't about 
to do a sort of second rate line

633
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,800
if the person before them had 
just had a cracker. 

634
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:28,920
So a lot of time was spent, you 
know, trying to work out whether

635
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:31,720
Courgette was a funnier 
vegetable and cabbage and so 

636
00:37:31,720 --> 00:37:34,480
forth. 
So we were always very late with

637
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:37,720
the printed script and poor 
Rowan had to stay up, you know, 

638
00:37:37,720 --> 00:37:39,480
all night learning this blowing 
thing. 

639
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,000
And when it came to the last 
episode, absolutely brilliant 

640
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,400
writing by Ben Nelson and 
Richard Curtis. 

641
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:51,760
I mean terrific writing and 
brilliant performances to to 

642
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:57,240
match that with an extraordinary
sort of emotional curve in the 

643
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,640
episode where it starts all 
lucky and jolly and everyone's 

644
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:04,040
looking forward to, you know, 
going home after the war is just

645
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:06,840
one big push. 
And gradually all the humor 

646
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:10,080
drains out of the episode and it
becomes more and more serious 

647
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:15,200
and indeed very moving and sad, 
and you begin to feel sorry for 

648
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:23,240
people you'd rather despise. 
Listen, our guns have stopped. 

649
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:26,840
You don't think maybe the war's 
over? 

650
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,640
Maybe it's peace. 
Oh hurrah the. 

651
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,440
Big knobs have got round the 
table and yanked the iron out of

652
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,600
the fire. 
Thank God we lived through it. 

653
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:43,360
The Great War, 1914 to 1917. 
Hooray. 

654
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,960
I'm afraid not. 
The guns have stopped because 

655
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,320
we're about to attack. 
Not even our generals are mad 

656
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,360
enough to show their own men. 
I think it's far more sporting. 

657
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,560
Let the Germans do it and then 
they're all lined up in the 

658
00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:00,160
trench and the whistle blows and
the idea that they would then 

659
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,320
run over the top and, you know, 
it would all be incredibly 

660
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:07,120
dramatic and exciting. 
And we hadn't had time to 

661
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,760
rehearse the actors in the the 
set of No Man's Land, which is 

662
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:14,040
so huge we'd had to take a whole
other studio for it. 

663
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:18,920
And the set was covered with, 
you know, real wooden ladders 

664
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:23,280
and but real barbed wire and 
puddles and, you know, enormous 

665
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:27,040
expense to do this and stuff 
called full as earth, which is a

666
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:30,680
kind of fake soil. 
So it was as realistic as we 

667
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,120
could make it. 
And the actors were rushed into 

668
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:36,760
the studio with just 10 minutes 
to go before we ran out of 

669
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:41,120
recording time and action. 
And they went up the ladder. 

670
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:42,680
Somebody hurt their leg on the 
ladder. 

671
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:44,840
You can hear them cursing. 
Oh God, this is where you could 

672
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:46,800
hear them saying. 
But if we haven't even rehearsed

673
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:50,680
this is fucking Dick And they go
over the top and then the 

674
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:53,480
fireworks started and nobody had
warned them they were going to 

675
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,200
be pyrotechnics and these 
massive bangs and the light 

676
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,160
going off. 
There's people cutting their 

677
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:01,680
legs and and they're trying to 
run on this earth and they can't

678
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:05,080
get traction and they're you can
hear them just really upset. 

679
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:10,320
And we are sitting in the main 
studio with, you know, 600 

680
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:14,560
people in the audience watching 
this complete disaster go in 

681
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:16,960
front of us, went off forever. 
And everyone's looking at their 

682
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,160
feet going, Oh dear, how 
embarrassing. 

683
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:25,640
What are we going to do? 
And I got on the mic to the PA 

684
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,760
who was looking after the actors
and said we need to do another 

685
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:31,480
tape. 
We just got 5 minutes to another

686
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:35,080
take because we can't use that. 
And Rowan grabbed the 

687
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,560
walkie-talkie from the PA and 
said John, that was absolutely 

688
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:40,640
disgraceful. 
It was a terrifying experience, 

689
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:42,760
the worst thing that's ever 
happened on the set, and we are 

690
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:44,640
absolutely not doing a second 
take. 

691
00:40:45,240 --> 00:40:49,720
I'm sorry, but we're on strike. 
So we got to the edit and we've 

692
00:40:49,720 --> 00:40:54,280
got this beautifully made 
episode, brilliantly directed by

693
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:56,960
Richard Bowden, wonderfully 
performed. 

694
00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:01,120
Everything was right about it, 
and then this terrible amdram, 

695
00:41:01,240 --> 00:41:05,400
awful, embarrassing scene stuck 
on the end. 

696
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,400
But because by that time is very
welded production team, 

697
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:11,480
everyone's in the room. 
How are we going to make this 

698
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:15,920
work? 
And piece by piece, each person 

699
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:18,840
in the room had one idea. 
Chris Wadsworth, the brilliant 

700
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:22,720
editor, said, John, I tell you 
what, maybe if we slow it down, 

701
00:41:22,720 --> 00:41:25,960
I mean do not just a bit, but 
let's go counter intuitively. 

702
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:29,040
They're running too slowly. 
So let's go the other way. 

703
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,240
Let's make them really slow. 
So it takes them two seconds 

704
00:41:32,240 --> 00:41:36,200
just to do a step. 
And you think, wow, that's 

705
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:39,520
interesting. 
And then the assistant editor 

706
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:43,560
says, like, why don't we slow 
the sound down too, so that all 

707
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:46,440
the explosions are, like, all in
slow motion. 

708
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:50,560
And Howard's music played in a 
on a single piano and a 

709
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:56,040
gymnasium gets this wonderful 
plangent, spooky noise. 

710
00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:01,240
And then they think, wait, wait,
hey, what if we let's turn it to

711
00:42:01,240 --> 00:42:04,760
sepia like it's an old 
photograph, and it would be 

712
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,000
beginning to getting goose 
pimples, just talking about it. 

713
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:10,080
And then Jenny, my PA, says, 
John, just give me a minute. 

714
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:11,800
I just got to go up to the photo
library. 

715
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:15,960
I've had an idea and she comes 
back with this wonderful still 

716
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,160
of poppies growing in a field in
France. 

717
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:22,680
Just millions, billions of them.
And the two editors just do this

718
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:27,160
amazing slow mix. 
They mix between the poppies, 

719
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:31,280
the bright red poppies and the 
sepia of the four actors running

720
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:35,520
across the field and some by 
some magic thing. 

721
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:39,440
It was not no trickery, there 
was no CGI, no no technical 

722
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:43,920
expertise. 
What appears to happen is the 

723
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:46,480
actors disappear into the earth 
like ghosts. 

724
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:50,640
They faded away and out of the 
land comes these wonderful 

725
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:56,080
flowers and we're all standing 
there just humbled by this 

726
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:57,760
extraordinary thing that's 
happened. 

727
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:01,160
A catastrophe has turned into 
one of the great moments of 

728
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:03,080
television. 
I think it still remains there 

729
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,840
and I'm sitting there have 
having had not contributed a 

730
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,600
single thing to the conversation
apart from going, yes, that 

731
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:15,000
works and I said we can't have 
credits on this, You can't have 

732
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:18,320
best boy and assistant lighting 
director over this. 

733
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:21,880
We're just going to have a 
caption right at the end saying 

734
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:28,400
Blackadder 1485 to 1917. 
So that's how it came about and 

735
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:31,760
it was, you know, a really 
magical moment. 

736
00:43:34,240 --> 00:43:48,680
Good luck everyone. 
And I I can remember very 

737
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,240
vividly watching it for the 
first time. 

738
00:43:51,240 --> 00:43:53,680
And I would have been 15 when I 
saw it. 

739
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:58,520
And I cried and I and I was 
embarrassed. 

740
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:00,640
I must admit. 
I was about, I couldn't help it 

741
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:02,880
because I had my family were 
there, but I was. 

742
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:05,400
I cried. 
I was just so incredibly moved 

743
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:07,560
by it. 
Well, it it's not expected. 

744
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:10,600
Yeah. 
And that's, it's something that,

745
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:15,360
I mean, I'm not a conventionally
religious person, but sometimes 

746
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:18,080
you have a sense that the 
universe is bizarrely on your 

747
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:21,600
side as a pat on the back. 
You tried really hard and we're 

748
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:23,160
going to give you a little treat
here. 

749
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:30,000
And the two effects of it, I 
remember one is that Ben Elton's

750
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:32,800
uncle was a famous historian 
called GR Elton. 

751
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,640
And when Ben announced we were 
going to do a sitcom set in the 

752
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:40,440
First World War in the trenches,
Jeffrey Elton wrote to Ben 

753
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,840
saying, I can't believe a nephew
of mine could think of something

754
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:48,160
so appallingly tasteless. 
And after the last episode he 

755
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:51,400
wrote again to Ben saying, OK, I
see what you mean. 

756
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:55,000
That was amazing. 
And Rowan had so many letters 

757
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:59,400
from old ladies whose fiance's 
and husbands have been killed in

758
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:02,120
the First World War saying thank
you for understanding. 

759
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:08,160
And you know, so it's always 
ridiculous when Michael Gove 

760
00:45:08,240 --> 00:45:11,200
says things like Blackadder 
shouldn't be taught in schools 

761
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:15,160
because it's not patriotic. 
You said come on, you just 

762
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:18,040
haven't watched it heavy. 
You haven't watched how much we 

763
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:22,120
care, how much we cared and how 
much respect we had for those 

764
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:24,280
people. 
You know, and of course you know

765
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:28,680
soldiers are all kinds. 
There are brave ones and 

766
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:32,920
cowardly ones and you know, 
beautiful 1 slackers and. 

767
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:36,520
Yeah, well, I mean, Go probably 
didn't like the fact that you 

768
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:40,360
were satirizing Hague in the 
final episode. 

769
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:44,000
Hague was probably a hero. 
Well if there's if Blackout owns

770
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:51,520
owes anything sort of serious 
historical research it's there's

771
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:55,080
a book called Lions led by 
Donkeys which is the was the 

772
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:59,000
standard view that the Tommies 
were great and the generals were

773
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:01,320
no good. 
But of course, it's much more 

774
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:04,240
nuanced than that. 
My great uncle was one of the 

775
00:46:04,240 --> 00:46:06,600
people who started what became 
the Tank Corps in the First 

776
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:09,920
World War. 
So they weren't all idiots at 

777
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:12,400
all. 
It was a thing, you know, nobody

778
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:15,320
really understands what exactly 
what happened with the First 

779
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:16,320
World War. 
It's just the sort of 

780
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:20,720
inevitability to do with, you 
know, timetables and, you know, 

781
00:46:20,720 --> 00:46:24,280
economic restings of power and 
the end of empire and all that. 

782
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:28,280
There's nobody's one person's 
fault but to kind of make the 

783
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:32,920
claim that it was all jolly good
fun, First World War and, you 

784
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:36,800
know, and everybody should 
celebrate how great it was, it's

785
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:40,600
like, no, it was a horrible 
experience for all sides. 

786
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,680
Absolutely. 
And you shouldn't go on, you 

787
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:46,200
know, glorifying it. 
We should. 

788
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:50,040
We should be sorry for everybody
who lost their lives in such a 

789
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:56,240
terrible, terrible situation. 
In Blackadder Goes Forth, didn't

790
00:46:56,240 --> 00:47:01,720
you come up with the the German 
spy idea in the hospital? 

791
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:06,640
I don't remember that. 
I I never can remember, you 

792
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:08,360
know. 
So I'm a very collegiate 

793
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:11,440
producer. 
I hope I mean well, I'm at least

794
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:14,760
I listen to everyone in the room
and the best idea wins me. 

795
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:19,560
Of course, I historically got to
decide which is the best idea 

796
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:24,600
which would be my view. 
But everybody gets a say in 

797
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:28,440
anything that I produce because 
I think if you've got, you know,

798
00:47:28,720 --> 00:47:31,160
10 bright people in the room, 
why not? 

799
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:34,160
Why not have everybody's views? 
So I can't remember who, who 

800
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:37,840
thought of which line And there 
are still people on on the crew 

801
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:41,520
are still arguing to this day 
who wrote which line where I 

802
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:43,760
think that's not we did it 
together, That's the thing. 

803
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:45,480
That's what I feel. 
Sure, sure. 

804
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:50,280
Do you remember anything about 
Reg Aykroyd's City scandals? 

805
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:55,760
Yes indeed. 
And Barry Cryer, bless him, one 

806
00:47:55,760 --> 00:48:01,400
of the great human beings ever 
absolutely used to remind me of 

807
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:04,920
being in that it was Barry and 
Jimmy Perry, one of the writers 

808
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:09,520
of Dad's Army. 
And Nick Rowley's music from my 

809
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:13,920
old Footlights days was silly, a
very old fashioned thing. 

810
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:19,920
And Barry was used to say that 
draw, that great promise that 

811
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:23,120
John Lloyd showed with Red Jack 
Royd's silly scandals. 

812
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:26,840
Whatever happened to him, You 
know, we had a go. 

813
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:31,480
It didn't really work. 
It was a bit old fashioned, good

814
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:34,040
bits. 
But you know, I was going 

815
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:39,640
through a patch, Tyler, where I 
have no idea why, but I 

816
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:44,640
suddenly, as a very young radio 
producer, probably 25 or so, 

817
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:50,040
quite famous people, much more 
famous obviously than me, wanted

818
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:54,320
to work with me because I'd had 
a couple of early successes and 

819
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:56,800
they wanted to work with me. 
But when I said I don't think 

820
00:48:56,800 --> 00:49:00,520
this is really working, they go,
excuse me, we are actually 

821
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:04,280
rather famous comedians. 
You're 25 and I think we know 

822
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:09,640
best. 
So I wasn't as tough on Barry 

823
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:14,400
and Jimmy as I would have been 
with my peers, you know with 

824
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:18,440
Mount Griffin. 
You know Richard Curtis where I 

825
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:21,720
I was a peer-to-peer and I was 
going to be if I didn't think it

826
00:49:21,720 --> 00:49:24,240
was good enough, I was certainly
going to say so and insist that 

827
00:49:24,240 --> 00:49:26,280
it'd be better. 
Whereas I I didn't really feel 

828
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:30,640
it was my part to say to Barry, 
that's a bit of an old you know,

829
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:36,240
bit of an old joke or something.
And I did a similar series 

830
00:49:36,240 --> 00:49:39,520
called Offbeat with Braden with 
the Bernard Braden who was a 

831
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:44,040
wonderful Canadian comedian 
where the same thing I I 

832
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:51,920
basically I deferred to his 
experience and celebrity when I 

833
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:55,320
wasn't really my heart wasn't 
really in it And that again only

834
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:58,480
lasted one series and and after 
that I swore I'll never do that 

835
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:01,800
again. 
I mean I the way I was trained 

836
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:05,520
was go and make stuff you like. 
And I said at 22, what do you 

837
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:08,560
mean what I like. 
And they said, well at least you

838
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:10,000
guaranteed an audience of one 
aren't you. 

839
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:14,680
But if you try and guess what 
old people like, or people of a 

840
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:18,040
different cultural background 
like, or what young people like,

841
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:21,880
you're bound to get it wrong. 
So your best judge your best and

842
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:26,000
least patronising and actually 
most respectful way of treating 

843
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:29,400
the audience is to treat them 
like they're you. 

844
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:33,680
And Martin Scorsese, I was, 
loved this quote, he said. 

845
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:36,720
When I make a movie, I am the 
audience. 

846
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:39,360
So it's good enough for 
Scorsese. 

847
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:41,120
It's good enough for me. 
Totally. 

848
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:47,960
Do you remember writing with 
Douglas Adams, The remarkable 

849
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:50,480
Fidgety River? 
Yeah. 

850
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:55,040
Which which was one of two 
episodes of Doctor Snuggles that

851
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:55,480
you. 
Read. 

852
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:57,320
I remember that very well. 
Yes. 

853
00:50:57,400 --> 00:50:59,080
We used to moonlight in the 
evenings. 

854
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:03,360
We were both radio producers and
we had the next door office and 

855
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:07,040
we would moonlight trying to get
sketches on. 

856
00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:10,000
Well, I used to do a lot of 
stuff for the Two Ronnies. 

857
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:13,880
I actually got 21 liners on the 
Two Ronnies in This opportunity 

858
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:17,920
came up for this animated series
made in Holland by. 

859
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:21,400
I remember we used to find this 
terribly funny. 

860
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:26,320
I didn't in those days speak any
Dutch, which I now do, but the 

861
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:29,760
producer was called Yoopfish and
his secretary was called 

862
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:33,200
Veronica Plink and we thought 
that was terribly funny. 

863
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:34,720
But they were very nice and very
good. 

864
00:51:34,720 --> 00:51:38,240
And Peter Ustinov was the voice 
over and it was great fun. 

865
00:51:38,240 --> 00:51:41,400
They would. 
Who actually paid rather well 

866
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:43,120
for it. 
I seem to remember we really 

867
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:46,200
enjoyed doing it, because great,
you know, you can imagine 

868
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:48,640
Douglas's imagination in 
animation. 

869
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:51,320
You can do literally anything 
you want and you're you're not 

870
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:55,520
tied to what an actor can form. 
It was a very hot day. 

871
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:59,280
We were all trying very hard to 
cool down while we waited for 

872
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:04,240
coot boot to return from ankle 
Bill's lobster scape deep under 

873
00:52:04,240 --> 00:52:13,840
the Pacific Ocean. 
It was so hot I needed a glass 

874
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:19,560
of water. 
Oh, what on earth are you doing 

875
00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:20,560
in there, Nabi? 
Just. 

876
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:25,800
Trying to keep cool What? 
Do you remember of doing the 

877
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:28,480
Land of Confusion video for 
Genesis? 

878
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:34,600
Well, this is. 
I was just telling someone this 

879
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:38,120
story the other day actually, 
because. 

880
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:42,440
And so Genesis or their 
management anyway, came to us 

881
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:48,320
and said we want to do a a pop 
video with music video with all 

882
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:51,160
the puppets. 
And we thought, wow, this is 

883
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:52,280
amazing. 
We really made it. 

884
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:56,280
MTV was king and those there was
quite new, very exciting and 

885
00:52:56,280 --> 00:53:02,440
everybody watched it. 
And so it was 385 puppets I 

886
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:07,720
think and I was the person I 
wrote this storyboard and drew 

887
00:53:07,720 --> 00:53:13,320
that painstakingly and and they 
put the management put on the 

888
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:18,960
the job a guy called Jim Yukic 
who was there live video 

889
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:21,800
director so he would shoot all 
their concerts but obviously 

890
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:25,400
when the drama directions said 
never worked with puppets nice 

891
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:27,280
guy. 
So Jim and I, Jim sat in the 

892
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:30,920
back and I drew, I knew how to 
drag puppets and puppeteers and 

893
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:34,200
it was my script. 
So I shot it, edited it. 

894
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:38,440
Jim went back to LA and he won 
everything, you know, he won a 

895
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:43,960
Grammy and Evan knows what. 
But I never got asked to any of 

896
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:47,400
the awards summary. 
So years later in the 90s, I 

897
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:55,320
think I was, I was watching AI 
was on an ad shoot in LA and 

898
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:57,080
after the shoot I went to my 
hotel room. 

899
00:53:57,080 --> 00:54:00,640
I thought, I have room service, 
I have a drink and the program 

900
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:04,920
came on the telly called Mt VS 
100, greatest Music videos of 

901
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:07,160
all Time. 
And I thought, well, land of 

902
00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:11,080
confusion must win something. 
And so I started watching at the

903
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:13,320
beginning of the show and it 
went up through the hundreds and

904
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:15,560
the 90s and the 80s and I sort 
of get depressed. 

905
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:19,240
I thought we must have got 
something, must be somewhere in 

906
00:54:19,240 --> 00:54:21,520
there in the 50s and the 40s and
the 30s. 

907
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:26,000
And I suddenly by that time I'm 
halfway through the mini bar and

908
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:29,320
beginning to find it quite 
difficult to focus and it gets 

909
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:31,960
up to the top ten. 
And I buy now I'm really, you 

910
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:35,200
know, this is really, I've put 
so much work into that and must 

911
00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:36,920
get something. 
On the window ledge by this 

912
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:38,120
point. 
Pretty much. 

913
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:43,160
And then it gets to and ladies 
and gentlemen, and number one in

914
00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:47,480
the Mt VS Greatest music videos 
all time, Genesis, Land of 

915
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:51,320
Confusion. 
Jim Yukich gets up in Century 

916
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:54,640
City, wherever it is in his 
Dicky bow and goes and accepts 

917
00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:56,800
the award. 
And he didn't even tell me it 

918
00:54:56,800 --> 00:55:00,840
was up for it. 
I've never spoken to him since, 

919
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:03,640
and I probably won't, but it was
like that. 

920
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:05,320
Seemed to be a bit rude, you 
know. 

921
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:10,120
Yeah, absolutely. 
I I read that Mike Rutherford's 

922
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:15,280
puppet was later repurposed as A
to be Jesus Christ in a Spitting

923
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:17,240
Image sketch. 
Oh, my will have been. 

924
00:55:17,240 --> 00:55:18,760
Yeah. 
I saw Mike the other day, 

925
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:20,760
actually, because I've spoken to
Mike since then. 

926
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:27,160
I remember talking to, we were 
calling up Phil Collins and 

927
00:55:27,160 --> 00:55:30,680
saying what's this line mean in 
the song? 

928
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:33,320
Phil And he goes, doesn't mean 
anything, it's a song. 

929
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:36,120
What are you talking about? 
Oh, OK, fine, I can do what I 

930
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:39,200
want then. 
But it was a it was a real 

931
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:41,160
highlight. 
We love doing it and it was 

932
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:45,760
quite innovative in its day. 
We used Oxford Scientific films 

933
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:49,680
to do some of the shots, which 
is very radical, interesting 

934
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:53,080
tracking shots as unusual 
cameras normally used for 

935
00:55:53,080 --> 00:55:57,480
wildlife shots, you know. 
Can you tell me about the Golden

936
00:55:57,480 --> 00:56:01,440
Brain hunt? 
Yeah, so we it was a competition

937
00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:06,680
to find Reagan's brain, which 
was a golden walnut that we were

938
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:11,360
very off, a place called a place
called Thatcher Rock off the 

939
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:15,360
coast of Devon. 
And due to the normal shambles 

940
00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:20,520
of my hopeless administration, 
it was going to be radioactive. 

941
00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:22,280
So you could only find it with a
Geiger counter. 

942
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:25,680
I wrote the quiz. 
The very complicated Quizzle 

943
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:29,440
written in Morse code and the 
NATO alphabets and things. 

944
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:33,040
All sorts of clever tricks. 
It was a doable puzzle, but very

945
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:37,160
difficult. 
And somebody realized that by 

946
00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:40,360
the time we published the book, 
they couldn't get to Thatcher 

947
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:43,280
Rock because it was illegal to 
bury things on it or something. 

948
00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:45,520
So we never actually buried the 
brain. 

949
00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:48,200
But somebody did solve it. 
They worked it out from first 

950
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:50,320
principles, and they they got 
the prize too. 

951
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:53,400
I think it was 1000 lbs. 
Wasn't there meant to be a 

952
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:57,120
celebrity who who knew the 
answer or knew the location and 

953
00:56:57,480 --> 00:56:59,560
people had to work out who the 
celebrity was? 

954
00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:02,960
I can't remember. 
About five years ago somebody 

955
00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:06,600
sent me the article of the 
person who D worked it out and I

956
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:10,640
must admit I was quite taken 
aback with how difficult it was,

957
00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:12,480
the puzzle. 
But it did it all. 

958
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:14,160
It all stacked up apart from 
that. 

959
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:16,680
We didn't physically bury it, 
but when they worked out where 

960
00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:18,680
it would have been buried, we 
gave him the prize. 

961
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:23,160
Brilliant. 
OK, well, listen, John, time is 

962
00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:28,160
against us and I really do 
appreciate you, you know, giving

963
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:29,800
up your part of your evening to 
talk to me. 

964
00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:33,920
We, we haven't even had a chance
to talk about Qi or hitchhikers 

965
00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:39,200
or a news quiz Museum of 
Curiosity as well. 

966
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:41,200
I mean that's that's still going
strong, isn't it? 

967
00:57:41,560 --> 00:57:43,120
Well, I don't know. 
They haven't mentioned the new 

968
00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:45,400
series. 
So we've we've we've yet to. 

969
00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:48,240
I bumped into the producer, 
actually it's a Christmas party 

970
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:50,040
just now and I said if you had 
anything, you said, no, don't 

971
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:53,840
say anything to me. 
So you, you, you just never 

972
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:56,040
know. 
But I mean, at least you can 

973
00:57:56,040 --> 00:58:01,320
see, Tyler, that it's not been a
smooth Rd. a lot of the time and

974
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:04,280
and nor is it likely to be. 
If you're going to do things 

975
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:05,520
well, it's going to be 
difficult. 

976
00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:08,920
That is definitely another of my
mantras. 

977
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:11,720
You know, if it's easy, it's 
probably not very good. 

978
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:14,120
Probably not. 
I mean, I'm not saying that it's

979
00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:18,760
universal, but oh, that's a 
general rule of thumb is it? 

980
00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:22,200
To do something well takes a lot
of hard work and a lot of 

981
00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:25,440
mistakes and it is generally 
quite difficult, I think. 

982
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:31,320
I think most artists would say 
that's again, it's not true, for

983
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:34,680
example, of songs, I don't 
think. 

984
00:58:34,680 --> 00:58:38,600
I think a lot of songs have been
written in 10 minutes that are 

985
00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:41,760
very famous. 
But of course, it's rather like 

986
00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:45,640
the Chinese artist who goes to 
the emperor. 

987
00:58:45,640 --> 00:58:48,720
And the emperor says, I hear 
you, a brilliant painter of fish

988
00:58:48,720 --> 00:58:54,880
draw me a fish and the guy does 
3 strokes of a brush and there's

989
00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:58,160
an amazing fish. 
And the emperor says, well, I'll

990
00:58:58,160 --> 00:59:01,600
pay you for that. 
He only took you 4 seconds. 

991
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:04,240
And the painter says no, no, 
that took me 60 years. 

992
00:59:05,120 --> 00:59:09,440
Yes, to be able to do that. 
What a what A very deep note to 

993
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:11,880
end on. 
Well thank you for your 

994
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:13,160
research, Tyler. 
Very thorough. 

995
00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:15,600
I'm I'm sorry, I haven't. 
I haven't gotten longer to. 

996
00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:19,760
No, listen, it's been brilliant.
Pejor with you and you can do a 

997
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:22,680
Part 2 maybe sometime, but I 
don't have any more goon 

998
00:59:22,720 --> 00:59:24,000
stories. 
That's the only problem. 

999
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:25,320
That's fine. 
That's fine. 

1000
00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:28,840
At least there's no this, this I
you know, I I'd love to talk 

1001
00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:31,960
about comedy in general. 
Comedy that I love and and 

1002
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:33,680
you've been responsible for so 
much of it. 

1003
00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:38,440
So tip of the hat to you John 
and have a brilliant Christmas. 

1004
00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:41,160
Thanks, Tyler. 
It's been an absolute pleasure. 

1005
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:45,800
Hey, man, it's. 
What a. 

1006
00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:48,520
Terrible dream. 
I am parched. 

1007
00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:54,000
That's better. 
I could use another one of 

1008
00:59:54,000 --> 01:00:03,920
those. 
That's one heck of a nurse.