Hello and welcome to Goon Pod. It's an extra long show This
week. Both myself and friend of the
show Chris Diamond spent a thoroughly enjoyable couple of
hours chatting to Nick Emery, son of Dick Emery.
Dick Emery, of course, who looms quite large in Goon Law.
Nick had such a lot of interesting stuff to say and was
so generous with his time. And what follows on the other
side of this music is basically three men having a bloody good
chat about one of Britain's greatest post war comedians who
sadly died 40 years ago this year.
And I hope you enjoy it. Obviously, you know, I'm an
admirer of your father, but I I felt it.
It might be a good idea to get someone on as well who's much
more of an authority than me, you know, on the career of Dick
Emery. Someone who who knows his Emory
onions and yeah, I thought both myself and Chris we would you
know very keen to speak with you and and just talk about your
dad's career. Obviously this this shows
ostensibly about the goons and it's both yeah, collectively and
individually. But it's evolved or it's
developed over the last couple of years and it's now it's it's
one in which we sort of embrace all comedy.
It's generally of a certain vintage but not exclusively you
know and and whatever the topic of the week is and it has to
have a a goon connection as a starting point you know Seller's
film or or whatnot. Very rarely will we not straight
off the path and talk about other people who make us laugh.
And it's it's impossible to talk about the goons anyway without
bringing in all the other people in.
Comedy Who? Who were in their orbit.
So last week, for example, we were talking about not Chris and
I, but myself and a guest were talking about the wrong of the
law from. 1963 yeah, yes. And there's so many.
I mean, quite apart from the fact that your old man's in it
briefly. Yeah, very briefly.
You had a cameo. Yes.
Yeah. On the job, I believe, is the
technical term directed by Cliff Owen, who obviously was the
director of You Are Awful and and one of the writers was John
Warren, who wrote a lot for your dad.
So. So yeah, so the conversation.
I mean, you know, there's never any set structure to these
podcasts. The, the the chats kind of range
hit her in yon. It's just kind of I wanted the
starting point to be your dad's collaborations with the Goons
and I include Benting in that, of course.
But then, yeah, I'd like to broaden the conversation to talk
about his career as a whole. So that's fine.
So really. Appreciate you leave.
And I'll just gently follow along.
OK. All right, Dick appeared in in
six goon shows in Series 3, but he alternated with Graham Stark
when Spike was ill. Yes.
And then there's this. There's the first show of Series
8 called Spawn. Harry was off because I think he
had a throat. Infection, yeah.
Evening Inspector at the New Type Year Happy New Year with
the Conservatives in. I'll tell him to move on.
Come on there. Move along there.
And of course then he he famously appeared in the case of
the muck and his battle horn he did was Spike and Peter.
Because Seacom couldn't do it. I think it was contractual.
There was a lot of things, like when they did the Ying Tong
song. I don't think Harry could sing
on that. No yet to talk.
He had to talk. He was not allowed to because of
his contract. He was not allowed to sing.
He could blow raspberries in the background, but that was it.
That was a sum total of his singing.
It wasn't till a lot later was he allowed to.
I think it was one of the Lps. Later on they did.
I think they revisited a lot of the stuff and they he was he
could sing on those slightly so, so did because you would have
been too young to have heard. The I was, I mean, I've well,
yes and no. I mean we did listen to them
when I was about because I was born in 1954, so it was in the
middle of their fame, as it were.
And so my mum, it was sort of. That required listening at the
time, so I sort of tuned into it and I vaguely aware of listening
to them and I do remember the then watching things like the
Telegoons when it came out and all that sort of stuff.
And I was aware of them. I don't know why I was aware of
them, but I was. You also have to remember at the
time that my mother was quite close to June Milligan and we
used to go up to their house. And in fact, one time June,
myself, Sean and Laura went on holiday to Cornwall.
To north Cornwall. I can't remember where.
I think it was Perrin Paul's, and I think we did go down in an
old car, which I think was known as old men.
That's right. Yeah.
And Sean and I once when they were living up in North London
somewhere I can't remember where and.
Sean and I conducted a little experiment, as children do,
because we'd noticed that if you drop a drop of water on
something, it it stays a drop of water and stands above
everything, doesn't immediately flow off.
So we thought we could create a lake on a table top, and so we
we trotted down. Our mother's respective mothers
were having a chat in the kitchen and we trotted down.
And got can we have a cup of water, Mummy, please?
Yes, of course you can, darling. And off we trotted with it and
poured it on this table top and of course it ran off the edges.
So we went down thinking, no, no, no, this, this, this will
work eventually. And we went downstairs and got
another cup of water and of course it ran off.
And then I think they noticed a sort of damp patch on the
ceiling. Our scientific experiment ended,
I think, with a little bit of a shouting at God.
We must have been about four or five.
Well, that's interesting cuz June exits the scene as it were
in was it late, the late 50s Chris?
Very late 50s. Yeah, I think.
Yeah, she married a Covent Garden Porter.
Yeah, there's always been a bit of a mystery over.
Not mystery as such, but it never really got spoke about the
the circumstances surrounding the departure.
I don't. I really don't know.
I mean, the person who might have known a bit more about it
would be my late mother, but I know that that that spike got
custody of the two children, then three children.
Sean, Laura and Cela. Yes.
Cuz Jane came along later. Yes, I know that.
I think that to be honest, I'm not sure they were that
compatible, but I wouldn't know. Spike in June.
Spike in June? Yeah, this was Spike compatible
with many people? Really.
Well, yes, He had his moments, didn't he?
He was a very well, I think it. I think obviously it's well
documented that his mental state after the Second World War was
not brilliant and he'd left him with sort of with almost like
manic depression. Yeah, unresolved PTSD, I would
think, and all sorts of other things.
But when, when, when Dick and Graham start were alternating
shows in Series 3. That's because Spike was in
hospital with the. That's right with the mentor.
That's right. And of course there was the
death of Larry Stevens, which put put all the load back on
Spike, the script writing, which, you know Stevens
committed suicide, didn't they? No.
No, it was. He had what he had.
The doctor that examined him for.
He was applying for a mortgage. He had to go for medical as part
of this. And the doctor that examined him
said he'd never seen such an extreme case of hypertension.
Oh God, and basically said you've got a year to live.
Oh, right. Oh, Lord, yeah.
Oh dear. So, so Nick.
Yeah. How how close were you there for
with the with all the families and the friends of all the good
people? I mean, were you all in the sort
of friendly Mellie? We were, we were, we were to a
point. And then Dad.
Dad, of course, had, if you don't know the story, he had
five wives and my mother was wife #3.
I mean #3 your time is up. Anyway.
His He was flitting throughout from the time I was born because
he met his fourth wife around about the time I was born and
was having a torrid affair with her.
In the background. And also my mother.
I know you have to understand that up until at the time I was
in fact a year after I was born, my parents hadn't married and
they married so that I could officially have a father, right?
So yes, I was responsible for a marriage, which is a hell of a
responsibility for A. A child.
Less so. Just over one year old, so I had
to take that one on the chin. Anyway, so we had this strange
time. My mother was still working.
She worked in show business. She was.
She'd been a dancer, then a singer, comedian, actress, and
then she. We we, we lived in the center of
London and she had a lot of friends in show business,
including, you know, the wives. Well, certainly Milligan's wife.
I don't think we were that close.
In fact, I don't think we had any dealings with Ann Sellers.
I think that was another that was a separate issue.
I never heard my mother refer to Ann Sellers at all.
What about Peter? Was Peter ever at your house or?
Well, Peter and Dad were friends, which led to the wrong
arm of the law and his cameo appearance.
They they they'd all come from the same sort of background.
They've known each other after the war and they'd sort of
followed each other about and that did hang around.
I mean, the the West End of London was full of these guys
who'd just come out of the military like Benteen, like
Sellers, like Milligan and like Secom all come out of the
services. Tony Hancock.
Who Dad was great buddies with for a while and they were all
hanging around the same sort of things and they were all
following each other in and out of theaters and stuff like that
while trying to build their careers.
And I think Benteen appeared at the windmill.
I can't remember. Yeah, yeah.
Doing his incredible cheer act. That's right.
Yeah. What was it called?
Chris? Was it Sherwood and Forest?
But he did the, you know, that sort of professor of pure heart,
sheer back thing. Yes, he did.
With the wild hair and the mad eyes and everything like that.
I have seen a bit of footage of it.
It was quite bizarre, quite a bizarre act.
Very imaginative. It worked its way into the end
of the down among the said men. Yeah.
Yes. And then I think he he suddenly
realized that three were better than four.
I think too there were tensions between him and Milligan over
script writing. And I think that led to a few
arguments here and there. So I think he realized, you
know, I mean the the classic lineups of three, you know,
there there were four Marx Brothers.
It was the three that were remembered.
Yeah, more than when they had Zepper.
And I think he realized that possibly this wasn't, this could
blow up in his face. And I think he realized that it
was, it was succeeding. I mean, Milligan and Sellers had
this great rapport. It would be hard to believe.
In retrospect, that the two people like Milligan and Benteen
who are so, you know, explosively creative, but also
very aware of what they had to do to be so creative, you know,
there are planets that couldn't be in orbit together really,
when you think of it. Well, that's right.
And I think that's most probably why I sell it.
Sorry. I've got the right character,
the right person. A minute Benteen was.
Well aware. I think it was acutely aware and
it was a highly intelligent man and a lot more stable than
Milligan mentally. And realized that they weren't
getting on like they should and that it could cause friction.
And I would imagine there were arguments over characters over
character development. And things like that.
And maybe that's why it was more of a success after Bente left.
It was more of a play than a series of sketches.
So you had a set storyline, you had a very well, you had a plot.
I don't know if you could call it a storyline.
You had a start and a point you were aiming for.
After that you had a rather. Maladjusted compass to get you
there. Yeah, well it blossomed from 54
onwards was. The period.
Yeah. Yeah.
When your dad, sort of when your dad was in the Good Show and I
just wonder, I've seen interviews with him later on in
his life and especially he makes reference to it in this that
spotlight program that was made just before he passed away that
was never shown. But he only ever seems to
mention the good shows he took part in, in a very not
dismissively, but not as, not as a great standout.
You know, interest, you know, great thing that he ever did it.
Was it something that mattered to him?
I think what it was, I think, I think there's a sort of thing
where, you know, it's like you see people who've been like
great musicians, great Rocky musicians who've taken past a
fantastic. Obsession or something.
And they write it off as the smallest part of their life
ever. And you think, how can you put
it like that? You know?
And I mean, for years I didn't realize it being in the goons.
And then I then I found sort of things where he was talking
about himself as the goon that got away in his promos at times.
And I thought, well, that's interesting.
Why would that be? And then my mother said, Oh yes,
he was in the goons, you know. But you know, I mean, then he
kept a lot of things from me. You know, the fact that he did
some voiceovers for Yellow Submarine, he kept that from me
for years. I never realized.
Really. Really.
Wow. That's that's incredible.
Have you heard the, have you heard the the Yellow Submarine
outtake? Where?
Where your dad as Jeremy the Jeremy boob.
Hello, Jeremy Boop, he sings. He sings the first verse of Lucy
in the Sky with Diamonds Have. You heard?
No. Picture yourself just out
nuclear fission with library cards and the metaphor skies.
Somebody quotes you, you read. From the source book, a concept
with microscope eyes. It was a mix and Lenin's vocals
were mixed out and your dad's dad, as Jeremy speaks or sings,
sort of improvised first verse. Yes.
And then and I think it was due to be in the film and Lennon
vetoed it because he said he just didn't.
Well, I think he just either he didn't like it or he didn't want
to have to share a songwriting credit, because obviously Emery
would have had some claim on that.
Yeah, yeah. He told it because he was awful.
Yeah. More than likely, yes.
But I didn't, you know, there's something I didn't realize.
And he, you know, they were felt there's.
I come across snatches of films and things like that, or bits of
films, and I suddenly realized he did more film work than I
ever realized was in the He's in the Fast lady.
He's in the fast lady. He was also in one about a
Searchlight crew and I'm trying to think what that's called
light up the sky or something like that.
The big job And of course. And he was in the big job with
Sir James and Jones. Well, that was virtually a carry
on film. Yes, yes.
In all but name and. There's a film, Sorry to cut in.
There's a film which intrigues me tremendously called Find the
Lady. Ah.
Yes, which I've never seen. No done with Peter Cook and John
Candy. And Mickey Rooney?
What a night that was. Yes, they had a drunken evening
with Peter Cook. Very drunken.
And I did hear the tape. God knows what's happened to
that. But it him and Peter Cook doing
a Derek and Clive. No, really.
Yes. And it's.
I mean it's. I don't think I can discuss the
content. Blimey.
But it was fascinating. Fascinating.
Would your dad have been fully comfortable doing that sort of
thing? Yeah.
I mean, he would have, actually. And he enjoyed Cook's company.
He enjoyed Mickey Rooney's company.
I don't know about John Candy, but the film was dire.
Dad always hoped that every copy of it had been burned.
All he said it was awful, Absolutely.
The film itself was awful. He loved working on it, but the
film itself was awful. You'd better get out of here
before the police arrive. Forget it.
I take him both sides of the action.
I can second guess the police better than you.
You're too smart for your own good.
It's very simple. I merely revert to my alter ego,
Hugo Steinmetz, the perfect gentleman's secretary, Sir.
I think I made a mistake getting into this.
He did another one where he played uh.
He, he was rather lecherous man in that.
And that was called Baby Love, which was a strange, strange,
strange 1960s film. He appeared, I think, in a
Norman Wisdom film as a drunk at a party.
I'm trying to think what else he was in.
Well, what? What did you think?
Though? I'm fascinated to know this.
What did he think of who you are?
Awful. He hoped for great things from
it in America. Yeah.
America didn't understand it at all.
He was very pleased with the result when it was shown here.
But I think he was very disappointed with the reaction
he got from America. And of course it never led to
any other film because in effect it was mostly a rehash of all
his, all his television characters, and it was not
anything else. You see.
He would have, I think, and I'm fairly certain he would agree,
he would have made a great character actor in it, you know,
away from. The 30 minute Dick Emery show
with the vox pop at the beginning and all the history.
And in fact, his last two series were close to what he wanted to
do. Yeah, those were the sort of his
aspiration, wasn't it? The sort of Jack of diamonds
and. Jack of Diamonds, Legacy of
Murder. Yeah, perhaps I've got.
I'm just remembered on somewhere on my desk next to me.
I've got two ticket stubs, one from each of those.
When we went to see this screening because it was filmed
and then screened in front of the live audience.
Yeah. But this case, I'm pleased to
hear that he likes You're Awful because I love the.
Yeah, I do. Yeah.
And and I think, I think, especially that I was saying to
Tyler earlier, I think, I think what I like about it, I suppose,
I mean, I like sitcom films anyway.
I'm unusual in that respect. But but while everybody else was
turning out films of, you know, the film of a sitcom, whether it
was Dad's Army or man, about those, You're Awful is a film.
It's an actual. Film it is a.
Film and it's it's well made. It's great.
It's great people and it's well acted.
Yeah, it's good. Great music.
Yes, Paddy Combs and Ronald Fraser.
Yeah. Oh yeah, go ahead.
Yeah, it's just Louie Mansi things in there somewhere.
That's right. He was in it.
Norman. Bert, I think isn't it is the
yes. Just the Darren Nesbitt.
He's the. Darren Nesbitt.
Yes, Sabbath. Yeah.
Sabbath, said Sabbath. Sorry, William Franklin.
Lisa, go down. Yes, I I I remember going down.
I saw a couple of days when he was filming up by 1 outside of
Buckingham Palace, which was at the beginning because they
couldn't film inside the royal gallery.
That was done in the studio, but the bit where they run from the
entrance they shot out of a a hotel room or or a room
somewhere nearby to get them running across the street.
Because the the palace would not let them anywhere in film on
their property. Well.
So they filmed them from there and they had them running across
the street, then down a little alley, and that was done in
Victoria, obviously. And then there was.
I saw the bit when they were outside filming.
Outside. Ones with ones with prison.
Oh, yes, of course, yeah. So yeah, it was a it was a happy
film. Yeah.
I think the problem was that films at that time fell into
this because, I mean, they all sort of did them.
I mean, there was. You had blessed this house,
which was Sid James's TV show. Yes, I did the poster of it on
my very wall where I'm sat. Yeah, and.
And that followed very much the TV show.
It was just really a very long episode of the TV show.
Yes, it was. Yeah.
With Robin Esquith instead of Robin Stewart?
Absolutely. But you're awful.
I suppose this has got something in common with the with Hancock,
because of course he didn't. He made a couple of films, but
they were adaptations of Hancock's Half Hour.
They were films. Yeah, but Hancock had fallen out
with Golden and Simpson by that time.
Yeah, but he did. Golden Simpson wrote The Rebel.
Yes, that's right. It was The Rebel.
Then he fell out with them for the next one.
That's right, Philip. The punch and doody man, Yes,
Yeah. The punch and judiment, yeah.
Yeah, He fell out. They they'd fallen out.
He. He.
Yes, and Dad always said that Hancock was mistaken to fall out
with them. Oh.
Yes. Huge.
Palpable, yeah. He's then started getting the
idea that he was greater than the people around him, which was
very sad. I mean, Dad worked on his TV
shows a couple of times and they was, you can see them.
Because they were shot live, almost in tears, with laughter.
Oh yes, the fantastic scene and how to win friends and influence
people where he's the postman. That's right where he's He's
trying to post his hundreds of entries for competitions and
your dad is saying yes. He's not posted if you.
Look at that scene. They can't make eye contact.
If you look at it, I think Dad's looking at the floor because he
can't look at angle at all. 415 last collection finished.
But I got another 200 letters. Oppose.
Sorry. Next collection. 8:00 tomorrow
morning. That's no good.
They got to be there by tomorrow morning.
There's no concern of man. Open that door.
No. I demand that you take my
letters. You're too late.
Now stand on one side, please. I'm not going that you take my
letters. Do you realize what you're
doing? You are obstructing a person in
the execution of his duty. You are upholding and
obstructing her medicines. Male.
Whatever you said, I am not. Are you going to take my letters
or are you not? I am not pretty.
Well, then, give me back those keys.
Not unless you collect my letters.
Yeah, you don't take a Marshall. Drop them in the box.
Those keys are government property.
Not a step further. They will.
I'll collect you later. That's better.
Then. Can I have my keys, please?
Certainly. Come on, open the door.
I can't. You've got the keys.
I'll get a fishing rod then. It's against all rules and
regulations and in fishing rods through government.
Heels and people put you around there and get it out and get it
stuck like yours. They should kill you.
And it was the same, funnily enough, when they did the
Muckanese battle horn, there's a scene near the end where they go
to the nightclub. Yes, yeah.
Yeah. And there's the sliding little
hatch in the door, and they shot that.
Over and over again and again, both inveterate gigglers would
just look at each other and they were just the thing would slide
back and they were in tears and they they did God knows how many
times till they got it to the point where they could actually
look at each other and laugh themselves out of it.
I think that was the first ever film.
Piece with Lamp Wick in in Macanese Battle Horn.
Well, here's the thing now. I was just I've been voicing
this earlier on in private. Now I have a theory about lamp
Wick and where it might touch upon the goons.
Yeah. So and again in a little bit of
an interview or a spoken piece that that where he was talking
about when they were in the gang shows, Ralph Reader's gang shows
and of course, Sellers was in the gang shows, yeah.
And he makes mention of when they were in a particular
theater. And there was Carpenter.
Burt Dent, Burt Dent, Actually, I thought I couldn't remember
his first name. Burt Dent.
And I know. So as you know, he says, that
that was the sort of lamp, wig voice, you know, of what you
know. Well, that's where they got,
yeah. But you see, they all, they all
had an old man character. Yeah.
So my hypothesis is, yeah, good inside of this is that that's
where William Cobblers comes from.
Yes, it was all, but you see, they all had this thing about
it. You see, it's that sort of thing
about the young people taking the Mick out of the older
people. And so that was where that came
from. And someone who was at that time
when the BBC was full of people with Received Pronunciation.
And you know the BBC and it was all jolly fine and lovely and so
someone who was working class, I mean if you listen to any of the
Vox Pops on radio from that time, all the film stuff is, is
there's usually a very well spoken interviewer.
And now tell me, what do you think of the current situation
in Suez? And someone go, whoa, I think,
you know I don't think we should be near at all and things like
that, you know. But they all have no mind.
Character. But I love it.
I love. Yeah, I just love the idea of
Lamp Wick. And William Cobb was being
sprung from the same place. Yes, you know what?
Your dad and sailors at the same.
Time. You know.
Yeah, I think, I I'm not sure if that happened, but they
certainly would have heard stagehands, they would have
heard people like that around and that these, I mean sellers
and were people who were observed.
They observed people's mannerisms completely and they
would take on and look at how someone stood and that they they
would move into that character. Footlessly because they thought,
oh, that's how it works. Oh, that's right.
And if you get that bit that way and you do that, then you're in
the character and you're there. Can you I'm.
Sorry to be a pain. Just give me one moment.
I'm sorry, one moment. We're going to expand in a
minute this idea that just we both separately started to work
up and I just happened to mention this to place this.
We were talking about this, the chronology.
Not even the chronology, but the character of the traits of
sailors and your dad, they're so similar.
They were very on such so many ways.
They were, you know, so hopefully we'll get to that in a
wait a minute, because when I started to jot them all down, I
thought, this is really Unganny. It was, yes, 6 degrees of
separation. It was very strange.
It was they. They had, yes, and they both had
very driven. They both had very jealous
mothers. Yeah.
My grandmother was a force of nature and not necessarily for
the good. Well, we too.
Taylor comes back and we'll get into.
It all. Listen, listen, I'm back.
I'm sorry. I think it was Joel Morris who
said that if you're waiting, if you're desperate for a delivery.
Right. Start recording a podcast?
Absolutely. Yeah.
Sorry. So, yes, I picked up on the fact
you're talking about the striking parallels with Sellers,
even though your dad was 10 years older than Sellers.
This amazing symmetry. Yeah.
So we're just starting there. So let's start with you were
saying about their mothers, Cuz they were both.
Right. Well, yes.
They both had very powerful mothers.
My grandparents, who also, strangely enough, weren't
married. I don't know if it's a family
trait or not, but there you go. He both had been in show
business. Both have been in show business.
Both parents have been in show business.
So my grandparents were in the music on musicals were a musical
turn as an act, although they were a number one act when they
were slightly more exalted than they were sailors.
Yeah, they toured a lot. My cousin who gets into the
genealogy a lot, she's found out that they went to Australia and
toured there, so they must have toured various parts of the
empire, but by the time that Dad reached the age of eight and he
must have toured with them at some point.
So actually, yeah, because that would be that would take him
19151923. So grandfather being in the
Second World in sorry, First World War did beg my pardon.
In the First World War I found reference to him in the Norfolk
Regiment, which was strange for a Londoner, except by I think
that time they were backfilling regiments after the Volunteers
had gone. To meet their maker.
So then your dad and sailors then had the same experience of
being children out on tour? Yeah, so then then grandfather
left the the relationship became toxic between him and and my
grandmother and he said to who do you want to be with?
Grandfather was quite a strong character, by the way.
Not I've never got the feeling that seller's father was strong
as a character. That grandfather certainly was,
but I don't think a strong willed as grandmother and I
think the ultimatum was put to him that do you want to be with
your mother or me? And he went mother.
And so grandfather just walked out the house and that was that.
Did he see him again after that? Yeah.
Oh yes, he did. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, a lot
later on. But he was about 8:00 at the
time when that happened, and he didn't like school.
He wasn't academic at all, in fact.
I mean, I think he got out of school and I think one of his
first jobs was as a city messenger.
And once he started earning a wage, he then started taking
care of his mother above everybody else.
And I always thought my mother said to me that he almost, he
might as well have married his mother because of the
relationship they had. So that's very similar to
sellers. Yeah, they had the fascination,
the growing fascination with like cars and mechanics and
gadgets and things. And and marriages had.
Marriages, yes, and lots of marriages as well, both in the
RAF. Both in the RAF Dad wanted to be
a pilot and they asked him all about trigonometry and things
like that and he he sort of fell at the first hurdle, as it were.
He ended up doing his initial training in Scotland and then
was sent to Arif, sent Evel in Cornwall and he married his
first wife in Bodmin. He had prior to the war, he had
been undergoing opera training. That's right.
Yes, he was supposed to be going.
Totally wasn't he. He was and he was.
It was all set up and then war broke out.
Mussolini decided that he was going to be on Hitler's side and
that was that. Yeah, so then they were both in
the RAF, they were both in gang shows, yes.
So that just need to pause a bit on the gang show bit.
It's how he got in the gang show.
Yeah, And the RAF in their infinite wisdom, messed up his
married allowance and instead of sending it to his wife, it
somehow went to his mother. All right, so by this time he
had a son and he got a letter from his wife saying, I don't
know what's going on, but we haven't had any of the married
allowance. I don't know where it is I'm
having to beg my friends and family for money to live on, to
keep our son, to get, you know, fed and watered.
What are you going to do about it?
Well, anybody else, I think with a sensible head on would have
gone to see their commanding officer and explain the
situation. There's been a hell of a
mistake. Instead, what he did was he
stole a motorbike from the motor pool that RA have sent Eville,
rode to London on it, which is fair old feet in wartime, and
dumped the bike somehow dumped his uniform and got hold of
civvy clothes. And unless he had civvy clothes,
he took with him and he got a job working as Richard Callen in
theater. And he was working.
I don't know how many weeks, months he was doing this.
Anyway, he was waiting to go on one night he was in costume and
stage makeup and two men appeared either side of him.
One either side of him. Richard Callen.
Yes. And then read out his RAF serial
number, also known as Richard Gilbert Emory.
Yes. You're under arrest for going
absent without leaving the time of war.
And he was marched off to the nearest police station and taken
from there to Stanmore Military Prison.
And it was while he was in Stanmore Military Prison that
Ralph Ralph Reader, who had been given an honorary Commission by
the RAF as a think of Flight Lieutenant, was a given carte
blanche to recruit anybody with stage experience to go into the
gang show. So he plucked about of prison
and he went to the prison and that said his life by that time
he was double timing everywhere and he double timed into the
prison governor's office. And there's this other man in
there with the bands of an RAF Lieutenant on his cuffs, with
his jacket, and he's given a cursory interview.
You know, it says here that you've worked in theater.
You've done this at Neal. And he said, yes, Sir.
And he said right, and just looked at the governor.
He said, I'll take him, I'll take him now.
And he was given a travel warrant on the spot, released
from prison, put on a train and I God knows where they went.
But he went somewhere and was billeted in a house near on an
airfield. And he said, you know, he said,
what do we do? He said, well, we just wait till
we all get together and then we start putting a show together.
And he said, oh right. And he still couldn't get it in
his head that he was out of prison.
And the following the 1st morning he's woke.
He woke up at 6:00 as he had always done in prison and he he
nudged his near his near his roommate and said shouldn't we
be getting out and said oh told him to go away in not so many
not so nice away And he said at 11:00 a flight Sergeant came
round would you care for some tea?
And that was his introduction into gang show life.
Well, I mean he certainly for the rest of his life, he hardly
had spoken any higher than he did of Ralph Reeder.
No, I mean, Ralph Reeder saved him.
Yeah, I mean, you really see, you really seemed to see him as
a sort of guardian Angel. Yes, he was, because he took
him. And at the gang show, the gang
shows were hard. You I Don't Sellers was out in
India. The the ones in the UK went
round every RAF base in the back of a lorry and they've finished
the show. Load everything on the back of a
lorry and drive through the night to wherever they went to
next to do a show and then they were set up, then back in the
lorry and I think they, Dad said they got dysentery in this
country. Jeez, jeez, because they they
they were using a bucket for sanitation in the back of the
lorry. They the the halcyon days of
sitting in a a nice house having cups of tea or he were over and
they really did struggle. I mean you know that used to try
and use the back of the lorry as his dressing room till one night
they some well meaning soul moved it 3 miles away with him
on board and yeah and then he went to north on 70 D-Day plus
17 he was in northern France. Yeah, it's.
Incredible. But the the affection for gang
shows seems to have spilled over into the population.
In fact, there's a there's a gun show teller.
You'll be able to tell me. Is it the fear of Lombard?
And I'm not sure where at the end.
Maybe the one with the musicians straight where the the end is
saying now you all stand. For the national anthem, and
it's so we're riding the long bone because probably and the
audience absolutely love it, you know?
Yeah, I think. I think it's the last show of
series 5. Right.
Everyone had that trunk of an eye, right?
All hold the hands, chickity snitch.
All together. While all the hailing while all
the trips around the sailing, we're riding along on the Crest
of a woman and the sun. He's in the score.
On the distant horizon, look out for a parcel of Boy, we're
riding along after the war.
As I say, they all flooded into CV St. in the night.
You know, late, mid to late 40s, all D mob, D mob happy, you
know, and they're all those mad, as mad as Hatters because
they've survived. That's the thing, a lot of them,
I mean, Benzine said. You know, we came out and we
were euphoric. We were just, you know, we've
survived, we've survived. And that leads to a kind of
madness. And you know, they want to kick.
They want to kick the establishment over for the five
or six years they've been in uniform.
Although the the we know of it, you know the the graft in arms
where you know like the sellers know that Bob Monkhouse is very
good on on when he was writing about, you know, all the
comedians like the Alexander Club where they all win and
would swap jobs, you know, but your dad, Betty Hill, Mike
Mygraves, you know, all of them all together, all just sort of
moving as a sort of head. Well dad followed Hancock into
the windmill and I mean Hancock was living in this flat off
Leicester Square, this room, 2 rooms and he said he went round
there one day and he said Hancock is.
He said do you want something to eat?
And so Dad said, well, yes, OK and there's Hancock boiling 2
eggs in a kettle. And he said we eat them with
teaspoons from rolled. We've rolled up newspapers
around. And what Hancock had in this
place, he had a washbasin and a hot water tank, a copper hot
water tank, and he polished the side of it.
So he got a mirror to shave it. And then he's, you know, there
were things like, you know, you'd wear an overcoat and you
get, you'd have part of the shirt.
So you didn't have the sleeves. You just have the front and the.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the five.
So you could make yourself, you know, with an overcoat.
You could make yourself look smart, you know, if if one had
money, the other one didn't, you know, can I lend you a fight?
Oh, yes. For all right.
There's a fiber and it was like the elastic fiber.
That's where their private catch phrase came from.
Didn't play anymore where that came from.
Yeah, so they all followed each other around and they'd all come
out. There was Alfred Marks and all
the rest of them all come out of the services and were a little
bit bomb. Some were bomb happy, some were
been in you know concert parties in in on board ship or things
like that. They were, but the lot of them
were as mad as cheese benzine was, you know, I mean even if he
was even in his private life, he could be a little bit bonkers.
I mean he he he was showing his children how hot air balloons
work, and he made one out of paper and he let it go, and it
drifted across the garden and into the thatched roof of the
house next door, which set it to lie.
You know he was. Just, just just on benting.
You said about your dad was arrested on stage and dragged
off. Yeah, the same thing happened to
benting. He he was appearing at the open
air theater Regions Park during the war.
That's right, yes. And due to a clerical error, he
was wrongly he was wrongly accused of deserted, A
desertion, and he was dragged off wearing doublet and hose.
Absolutely. That sounds like something he'd
have written. It's like I'm being I'm being
arrested by my own sketch, yes. This is it.
I mean this. This was it.
The stupidity of it. I mean, if you read Milligan's
book of his service life. Yeah, the service life, you know
that. You can see where a lot of the
ideas came from because it was crazy crackers.
I mean, that's the thing he said.
We had this thing, he said, when, if when it was first
posted to Saint Devil, one of the punishment things was to
paint the coal white. You know why?
So you can find it in the dark. Yeah.
Right. Yes.
OK, fine. That day, it was that sort of
mentality that's won us the war and.
What happened if it snowed exactly?
You know pizza block again going with yeah of.
Course, you know, scrub it well, burn now.
Well, it's, it was total. Total.
I mean, I love the story about Milligan.
They were doing a gun drill with a gun.
They couldn't find a shelf or and they all had to when they
they pulled the the trigger for the the artillery piece and they
all had to shout bang to recreate the idea of firing this
gun. I mean that's the ridiculous
thing. I know it was a sort of semi
series here but it was bizarre, he said.
We had someone to said we used to have to parade us and devil
on a Sunday and then there was a vicar priest and a rabbi.
Just it's a joke. Just it does.
It sounds like a classic joke. And they walked along the the in
front of the planes, the fighters or whatever.
They were the fighters I think, and they walked along blessing
the guns. There's good religious values
for you. Bless these guns.
Maybe they smite our enemies and that's all.
Yes. And you can, you can see one of
the you can see the vicar being your dad with the teeth, with
the teeth, with the teeth. Absolutely, absolutely.
Have you well? Have you still got those teeth,
Nick? No, no, no.
That's the maid for his gulp. I think those teeth are the
single most effective comedy prop in history.
Well, I mean, you see teeth. I mean, you look at Harry
Enfield's Tim Nice but dim, which is has that sort of same
thing with the teeth, you know? Yeah, but they used to.
That's how they used to say early on in Harry Enfield's
career that he was the new Dick Emery, didn't they?
They did. Well, Charlie Hickson, bless his
heart, when he he was interviewed in one of the things
that the films they've done about his life.
Well, that was, that was for the many faces of the Camry faces.
If ever crops up, I would recommend anybody should watch.
Yeah, the BBC that was on the BBC and I took part.
I actually took my way onto that, but they but Charlie
Higson said. He said all we did was we did
Dick Emery. That was with the occasional
swear word, which wouldn't have happened in Dutch show, but it
did in the Harry Enfields. Sure.
But I think there's an important point to make there.
And if this is a point to make an important point, which is
that the sort of appreciation of your dad's career and looking
back on it and its impact. And obviously people in Milligan
get a huge amount of credit for how they change comedy.
And as you see, we mentioned Peter Cook and he also gets it,
but it's not always fully appreciated.
I think how amends an impact The Dick Emery Show had on comedy,
because it hadn't, because it hadn't existed that that format
really hadn't existed before where you have not set, not set
situations. That set characters doing the
same thing within situations and that is created a whole a whole
theme of comedy that sort of that.
I'm not sure. I'm not sure if he gets the I'm
not sure if he gets quite the credit he should do for that
because he certainly should. No he didn't because the BBC
around if there is a Parkinson show which he was on in 1980.
Yeah, and it was a strange, it was a strange Parkinson show
because he was on there with Kirk Douglas and the first half
was Dad, the second-half was Kirk Douglas.
But they never sat together on the stage.
And I I saw Parkinson last year. I know.
No, no. Yes, I have one, but I'm not
telling you now so it's in terrible taste and I'm not doing
it so, but he, he said, he said to me, he said that would have
been Kirk Douglas's management. They wouldn't have allowed him
to be on sharing the stage. He would have only been on
allowed to be on on his own and he wouldn't do it.
He wouldn't have done the show otherwise.
I suppose you can kind of see that, yeah.
So, but it was interesting in that.
It didn't stop a bloody singing. No, he It's an interesting show
because they touch on the changing comedy world i.e.
That a lot of things were beginning to be looked at in the
light of the very early beginnings of political
correctness, especially regarding the gay character,
Clarence. And you know, they've been
mentions. And he said, and that quite
honestly, he said, well, he said the one thing about the
characters I do is there's no malice in them.
Yeah, absolutely. They're done out of love of the
the type. They're not done out of cruelty.
There's no aspect of cruelty. There's a certain show on the TV
at the moment where a character is in that and has no empathy.
As far as I can tell. I only watched one episode and
my partner and I, we sat there and she said to me, I can't
watch another episode. That character is awful.
But I mean, Clarence. This as a gay man I have.
I. I think Clarence is a.
Great character because as you say there's there's absolutely
no, there's no malice in it. But most importantly, I'm sorry
if I get to sound a bit dediced about this, but no, no, no.
But most importantly about. It is he's.
Also absolutely unashamed. Yes, he.
He struts. About immensis about yeah.
And what's? Great about him is he has the
outrageous outfits, but because he has your dad's physique, yes,
obviously he's very at. The same time, very physically
imposing. The program.
Oh yeah, but what's great about it?
Doesn't it would be so easy? For the program, Not not your
dad, but the program to be sneering.
How to you know to have little comments after you know like you
know like you wouldn't turn your back on him or something.
Yeah. And actually he appears and I I
watched one last night he has a fantastic outfit and it didn't
took my more and a moment to notice it's look at the
outrageously striped the jumper kind of thing.
Yeah. And all the front of it.
It says first of the letters been in the numbers.
I'm one. And then when he walks away.
It says are. You too.
Yeah, but when you but when you walks up and they'll say you
know. You know, it's the interview.
It's nice to see, you know, it's that sort of big line and you
know then does the line you know and you go, you know.
Are you going? Did you go the holiday last
year? Oh yes, I tried it immensely.
Was that was it abroad? Was that?
No, just me and my friend. And then they walk away and
there's. No snideness, no.
But no cat calling. Nobody's being nasty.
Or it's it's such a singular character.
Many years ago, I used to be in musical.
Shows and in those days you had a lot of boys in the show 1620
on. And they were all gay lovely
people. Marvelous my God, marvelous
people. And they'd knit and so they're
all there. And in between shows we did an
afternoon show and an evening show.
It was a nice break, about two hours and we used to have
cabarets, you know and they used to put all on the all the drag.
Marvelous ideas for drag. I remember 1 fellow got hold of
a chair back one of those old oak chair backs and put it on.
It looked like a Spanish scene arena.
It was marvelous. And I got it from them.
You know, I used to talk like that with them and the chat and
they say, well, don't don't bother with their idea because
she's not one of us. And so it became natural.
I spent many, many years doing that, doing shows with them, he
said. I always admired what those guys
could do and how they coped with life and how they lived their
lives and coped with their lives in the world.
That was so against them. I love your dad for the.
For the that sort of attitude that you had, which was not
common, it wasn't. It wasn't.
And it's sort of color. I mean, I've worked in theater
very briefly and I mean Blink, you would have missed me.
And you know, I grew up and I worked around people like that.
It's never fazed me whatsoever. And I just find it, oh, you
know, I hear people's comments and I just think you really
don't know. You really don't know.
But he parky asked him about it and what did he think?
And you know, people's comments and he just said no, he said.
And that's when the comments came about.
You know, his character. There was no real malice.
There was no they were of their time, obviously.
You know the scripts were written in the like that the
world, the world has moved on. People in general, one hopes
show respect to others. But sometimes I'm wonder.
But that's just a general. Comment on that.
But you know he he was, he was very aware that, you know, there
had to be some. All these characters had one or
one saving grace somewhere. As I might, he was certainly.
He was certainly a man secure in his masculinity.
Yes, I've got a bit While you're talking about sort of this thing
about the thing. I mean, he used to worry Pat
Coons. No.
What? Because.
Yes, well. You.
See when they did a lot of the sketches where he would be the
woman next door neighbor. And she said that she was
interviewed in one of these shows, I think it was on Channel
4 way back. And she said when he did a
woman, he did a woman. Oh, yes, that's right.
Yeah. And.
She said I would be standing there and there would, she said.
Sometimes I could look into his eyes and he was gone.
There was a she there but. There wasn't a he because the
mannerisms and everything just clicked into place.
And she said it was so studied and so there that she said
sometimes it actually made her almost jump back.
But you know what? Again, again, I think that's a.
Little bit to do with it touches on again the lack of
appreciation that they got because people freely say.
Or Peter Sailors. He disappeared into his
characters and he became the person.
But then, well, so did Derek. Yeah, he did.
He was a very mixed up individual in private, very
mixed up. I knew could well.
Nobody has five wives and. Multiple neural friends never
got something good on No, I mean.
I've spoken to Vicki, his fourth wife, and we worked out that he
needed two wives at each at every moment of his life.
Well, it was a lot of it. One not you.
Packed into 5 foot 5 1/2 inches. Have you inherited this?
No, I have been married twice, but my first wife died of breast
cancer. But my second wife, who I'm
extracting myself from after a long time, is it was it was
really and truly we were totally incompatible.
But that was that's another story.
Have you? Did you inherit his?
His sort of dynamism in terms of like, you know, the dear devil
stuff. No, I never.
Had the money to do it. I inherited.
His slightly quirky view on life, you know, sort of sitting
watching people and would you know.
I have been known to watch people, to let you actually do
something funny, which, you know, is patience, basically,
yeah, I do watch people and I watch their mannerisms and how
they move and all the rest of it.
I've never used it in any way, but it must.
Be a family trait And in fact my my brother does it.
Michael, he does that as well. Can we just talk about?
Benting for a moment? Yes, because.
Benting has said. That he more or less helped your
dad? At the pretty low ebb And he
gave him his first big TV job. Yes, he did.
I think it was a TV show called After Hours.
Yeah. And he.
They were at traffic lights and Dad was in an old car and Bente
pulled up alongside him, saw him down the window down and yelled
across at him, you know, Hello. Hello.
You know, what are you doing? So Dad said, well, I'm, you
know, going home. And he said, no, no, no, what
are you doing? He said, well, I don't know.
I've not got much on, you know, not much work, work.
Oh, he said, well, I'm doing this show, you know, he said you
ought to be in it. And so that's that was that.
And suddenly he's in the show called After Hours, which then
led to It's a Square World, which was a huge.
Ensemble thing really. I mean there was, I mean, gosh,
it was a who was who wasn't. It was Clive Dunn.
Yeah, Clive Dunn. Yeah.
Frank Thornton and Leo Thor, a man you always.
Saw every now and then in films. Joe Gibbons, Mario Frabrizzi, I
think, yeah. Regular.
Appearances and the podcast,
Yes, including last week's show. And there were.
There were. There were all these, all these
characters, and it was, it was, it was an ensemble show with no
women. I suppose it was.
It was an old male ensemble. It was similar really, to the
Flying Circus. Yeah.
Dale Winton's mum was in it. A.
Few shows. Sherry Winton Yeah, yeah.
But it would have been a very small, Oh yeah.
It would have almost been a walk on part.
Oh yeah, Yeah. And by the way, Clive.
Clive, we were talking about what was his name?
Dent, Burt Dent and Sellers and your dad getting inspiration to
play the old characters. Clive Dunn.
There's another one. Yeah, that was an old man
character. Oh yeah.
He became. I mean, he was.
The oldest, I mean, he always played men who were.
He ended up just playing men of a certain age.
You never saw him as a man his age.
And certainly there was some sort of mandiesque pieces in it.
The one thing I do remember, I mean, oh God, this is they did a
show about, I think it was the sinking of the Woolwich ferry or
something like that. And they they filmed part of.
It in the testing tanks, the water tanks, testing water
tanks. I think it was Feltham in
Middlesex when they were there. They're gone now.
And that what they? Did was.
They had tables underwater, laid out, dining tables underwater
with and laid out with plates and knives and forks, with
candelabras sticking up out of the water and.
There's filming this scene of people going around trying to
serve dinner to to people's tables.
Anyway, so in between takes Dad wants to have a cigarette.
So he he lit one up and they're sitting there, up to well, up to
his stomach in water, because he's sitting down and he's
sitting there puffing away on his Ziggy.
And there's a shout of Oi put that cigarette.
Out why? You're a fire hazard, he said.
How? I'm surrounded by war.
Doesn't matter. So that was that.
I mean, Benson Benson was legendary.
He's another one who gets so overlooked.
I God knows BBC went through a period of wiping everything to
save money on storing tapes. So here's.
Another legendary figures. Of showbiz crossover with your
dad. Yeah, So at the start of the
Dick Emery Show, writers credited Mel Brooks.
Yeah. And Mel Token.
Yeah. So I'm guessing that was
because. Your show of shows.
Or the? Said Caesar.
Show whatever was. Yeah, probably some kind of
template. Yes, it was.
So why? So why not get them over?
Yeah, like, yes. I mean, and these guys were
hungry to write and get their name out there.
Too, which was, you know, and try and get some international
accreditation as a scriptwriter as well and much more.
So the Yanks coming over here than the the Brits going over
there at the time. Because the Yank humor sort of
transferred easily, whereas British humor didn't so much
sure. But yeah, I mean, John Fleese
wrote sketches I. Think he did write a sketch for
him? Is it true that Harold Pinter?
Wrote. For the ticket Emery show.
I don't know. You know that I couldn't answer
it. Had that question for the
writing. Yeah, it's one.
Of those, it's one of those things, You.
Hear, but I've never actually found any any evidence of it,
unless there's a program with a sketch with nothing but pauses
in it. But.
It does bring us to a point that a lot of people say like Roy HUD
just said this. And I'm kind of inclined to
agree to an extent, which is that A apart from the very start
of the show where you had like, you know Mel Bridgemore talking
about a Cryer and Peter Tennis, would Pier Vincent, people like
that as time progressed, the scripts for the decade?
Ratio. Went written really by the E
list writers which? It was kind of leads to the
belief that. I kind of share, which is he was
a lot better than the. Material a lot of.
The time yes, he was, and he knew it.
But why do you think? That was.
I mean why? Wasn't you know what he being
written for by, you know, right. The BBC, you know, started to
though that brought in huge viewing figures, you know, I
mean, one time 1617 million. By about 197172 he had a
director called Colin Charman. Now Colin.
Was very young for a director at the BBC, but he died young.
As well. And that's another part of this.
They then bought in John Warren and John Singer.
Now out of the two, I think John Warren wrote the bulk and they
bounced ideas between them and they really did write some good
stuff between them and. So much so that I think, and I
can't find this out, but I've got a feeling he won a Silver
Rose of Montreux, right? But I can't.
Find that the the truth of that out.
But I've got a feeling I. Seem to remember it somewhere in
my memory. Is it lodged as that that
happened? And then a couple of thing two
couple of things happened one one was that a high that the
show was going great guns Warren and Singer.
Were producing the goods as far as the scripts were concerned
and. Then the first thing that
happened was Colin Charman died. I think he was about 3435.
Now Colin was very minimal in his directing.
He used three. Cameras on set, which dad liked
because it meant that he could memorize the eye line all the
time. He could, you know, knew which
camera did what. Then they they got in Harold
Snowd who was. Who worked with Martin Jarvis on
a series or two and. Was always quoting how wonderful
Martin Jarvis was to work with, and that was like a red rag to a
bull to dad, it was just you don't, you know?
Yes, fine. But you're working with me now.
You're not working with Martin Dos, you know.
That was the view he took, but it was.
Always this thing that and Harold, he's a lovely man.
He's not a very well man at the moment.
I know that. Quite ill I think, but.
His style of directing grated on dad.
He used. Instead of three cameras, he
used five. So that meant.
You know what camera. So when they were doing the run
through rehearsals what camera am I looking at now Harold?
Why do we need so many cameras? And it would be like, well,
because you know, and I and he said, well, I don't understand
that was saying, I don't understand why.
Then, of course, John Warren died and John Singer decided to
bring his son in as a scriptwriter.
So you have Steven Singer and. The scripts at that point, I
think personally I've got nothing against John Singer or
his son, but I do think they were lame, but certainly from
from the outside knowing nothing about.
The personalities of the people, there were a lot there just
seemed to. Be a lot of sketches that.
They didn't kind of go anywhere. No, they petered out or they had
a really good. Idea, but it kind of didn't
develop. Or the BBC didn't seem to skimp
on the production. Though I mean the production is.
I mean sometimes you know the props and cast, the props, the
cast and everything like that was was fine, but the hope was
the name would carry it. No it did go weak.
I'm I'm you know, and it was noticeable and I think he
noticed it and also over time he became more annoyed.
With the format that the same. Characters were being rehashed,
rehashed, rehashed. I mean, I think.
It was in 1979. He dropped Mandy on the.
Yeah, because. As he and that came up in the
Parkinson thing and he said you can't be a 60 something old man
trying to play a yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Because the public sees through it.
I mean, you know, the last person to try anything,
obviously not a sex pop, but the last person to try and do
something like that was Jimmy Clithero, who when he went from
radio to television, they saw this rather elderly, yeah,
schoolboy. And it didn't didn't.
Crossover at all? Well, yeah.
In fact, it looked slightly creepy, so he was aware.
And we talked about it. We left the BBC One night and he
was in a very. Fed up, state?
Of mind and said what? And asked me what I thought and
I said I think you're right. I said I think it's that.
And I was told by his then wife that.
Not to say things like that ever again, because.
I don't know why that was, but there we go.
But it was. It was telling that that was
about, that was about 781978 and he was fed up that we was.
They were still doing the same things.
I think he was well aware that the scripts weren't funny.
So there's a there's an episode. Of an incident related.
By Bob Monkhouse in one of his books.
His second book. Over the limit where?
He talks about when they were taping celebrity squares and I
think 79. I think.
And so it was like the second round of celebrities, second
time would be done. It's still a big production and
your dad was taking part, you know, because he was moving and
hopefully into another sort of phase of his phase out there.
And I don't know if you've. Ever read this?
But it's incredible. Little sort of vignette where he
has this time that he spends the monk who says he spends with
your dad talking and he just he comes across as just very angry
and bitter about the BBC, but about comedy as a whole and
about what people expect of them.
Yeah, I think there was. There certainly was a lot of
that he he was. He was.
I say it was a very he was, it was a lot of things.
He was a workaholic. He had a an incredible work
ethic. He wouldn't turn anything down,
which really and truly he should have done at times.
He should have paced himself more.
You know the the old adage. More is less ohh less is more.
Sorry. The other way around.
Less is more. He was.
He was, he was a depressive. There was a lot of anger.
He. He.
He was all sorts. He was he was a mess in a lot of
ways. I mean, he was trying to live up
to things. He was trying to constantly
show. How good he was as a as a
performer. But that meant that everything
else in his life suffered. But when?
When would you say? He was happy as professionally.
In your experience, I would think when he first got his sort
of around the time of the it's a square worlds, the Army game.
And getting the first series of The Dick Emery Show, that was.
That was, you know, I've arrived, I've arrived, but then
you've got. After that you have to maintain
your position. You know now you're at the sharp
end, so to be successful you have to keep doing things.
And the BBC was great at pigeonholing and they wanted he
fitted into well. You do like comedy as they
thought, or comedy. So we'll keep you in the light
entertainment box with the emphasis on light and then.
You know, anything else? So when when he came up and said
I want to do something more substantial, which is the legacy
of murder, Jack of diamonds, when he wanted to do those,
there was a lot. There was a sharp intake of
breath all the way round. Well, this is.
Where does it fit? Well, what is it?
Well, it's a sort of comedy. It's not the comedy drama.
Oh, not sure about that. Not sure about that.
Where does it? Oh, this is it.
Burn #26 Salmon Terrace. If it's the Frederick Oldfield
inside, we've copped ourselves 5 grand.
If you're from the council, I'm not paying another.
Foul then, until you do something about my outside
carsy. No, we're not actually, Madam.
We're just making. Inquiries about a Mr. Frederick
Oldfield. You're not from the law, are
you? No.
I thought not. He's too short.
And fat to be a copper about this, Mr. Oldfield missus.
Does he still live here? No, he's moved.
Oh, you couldn't tell us where he's gone?
To it is rather. How is it?
Ought to be worth something then, won't it?
Ask next door. Thank.
You very much. Full of old world child.
She was. Hope we don't run into many like
her in the course of our. Haven't we just been?
I'm sure the lady your. Face is seem familiar.
That's what you look next door. I do.
I live. Here as well.
You mean you've got two houses? Well, with 15 kids, the council
had to do something. You have your husband, so.
Nice. By that time.
He was, what, 6566? And he was up against.
It because the new come, new kids on the block were biting
his heels. You know the not the 9:00 news
crowd, the young ones and all that which they were throwing a
lot more money at because it was the new thing.
It was going to last them a few more years.
And so he was against say against the clock really.
So when you moved, when you moved over to Thames.
To do all this stuff right. The Brief 3 Series he did for
Thames in 1980. Yeah, right.
Well, the BBC had an. Offer to him a contract.
The other thing was he thought he was under sole contract to
the BBC and he wasn't. He was on a.
Series by series contract. He thought he was under sole
contract for years and years and he'd had offers from ITV.
He'd had offers from here there and everyone said no, no, no,
I'm under and was led to believe he was under sole contract and I
do think that was part of his various.
Managers who? Did who were quite suddenly
found they had a nice little sinecure because the BBC would
come. Along and say there's another 13
weeks, thank you very much. And all we've got to do is book
a pantomime, a few personal appearances, and book a summer
season. Finally, you filled the diary
for the year. Hey, hey, boys, we've made
money. So I, you know, I think a lot of
them just sat back and instead of talking, where do you want to
go? What do you want to do?
Because you've done this now is there anything else you want to
do? And I think too they I think it
was a lot of bad advice. Around.
In fact, I'm bloody sure of it. Pardon my swearing, but I'm
absolutely convinced with Edward for me.
Usually, yeah. But I am.
I do think that he was poorly managed and I think that the
cinecure aspect of people just sitting back, cuz it was
comfortable, it was predictable. And was he happy that he'd moved
to Thames? And he was grateful for the
chance it gave him an out 2-3 hour long shows to do, but it
was more of a variety show. Yeah, he could sing.
And he could show his voice and he could do all that.
How well they were received at the time.
Because ITV was a bit of a comedian's graveyard.
Yeah, you know, Morcombe wise. Never had the same success at
Thames as they did with the beep the.
Yeah, all these people. Never had the same success that
the BBC invested a lot into light entertainment.
I TV not so much, you know. Yes, they could make a big
splashy show like Stanley Baxter and the Benny Hills.
But the Benny Hills, if you notice that they're all the same
format week in, week out, week in, week out.
And it's the same thing with the Yakety Sax and running, you
know, the the fast crank camera and everything like that and
everybody, you know, Oh, that's funny.
Yeah. And I think the specials that
your dad did. For James, were very visually
very similar to that. Yeah, they were.
They were, you know, high, high gloss.
You know you got Linda Carter over.
From the States, Wonder Woman, and to be the guest star in one
of them and things like that. But they were, they were what
they were, but they did. They showed him that there was a
world outside which he hadn't. Which he'd been led to believe,
As I say, he'd been led to believe that he was tied
completely to the BBC. And it wasn't.
Until, you know, he had. He'd had no offer from the BBC,
but he did the the three shows. He got paid more for doing those
three shows than he would have done if he'd done a series for
the BBC. He wasn't tempted.
To propose to. Lynda Carter?
No, no. Yes, you can imagine.
I can just imagine this little hopeful face poking down the I
think it would have been. I think it would have been how
can I fascinated by her. That's all so tall.
Oh, you're so. I may be short, but I'm
beautifully. Tell me this is a very.
Obvious question. I'm going to ask you do you get
a lot of fun out of turning into Wonder Woman?
Oh, sure. I mean, it makes a change.
Yes, yes, I'll tell. You what?
I've had to go at this. Turning around, you've got now
that's something I would. Love to see.
What happened? Nothing.
But. Maybe while you're here?
If I had to go, it might work. Will that be all right with you?
You're kidding? Yeah.
No, you're going to have a go. You're going to twirl around.
You stand back and do a twirl. That's.
What? I got you ready.
I said I'm looking for a nice. Strong, powerful man, Do you
know if any? Oh sure, my swimming pool is
just. Full of them.
Do you think I could have one? Or even half of that.
I'll see what I can. Do you Are so?
Beautiful. So are you, Miss Eddie, the
Brooch and everything. Sensation isn't tall and you
couldn't. Sing as well makes you sick to
your stomach. His fit wife.
I've not spoken a word to her since the father died in 1983.
I mean, I've no idea, but all the shows where they've
interviewed wives and it's usually Vicky and then the his
partner. After Josephine Faye.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, they. Always speak, you know, very
warmly of it. And I have to say, my mother
would have crawled over, broken. Glass for him.
He had the most women who had dealings with him had this.
He had a charm. He was extraordinarily charming
and it comes through the screen as well, though, yeah.
Yeah, it's not. There are not.
Many performers who can create that sort of a no.
To use a kid, if well, he was one of the reciprocity between
an actual audience in a in the living room and a screen.
And he could certainly do that. Yeah, he could read an audience
too. It was very good when he did.
His personal shows, you know, summer season, season shows, he
could walk on stage and then he said there was a, he said.
There is always a feeling, you know, if you're going to be give
them a little bit more or just you know, because the what
you're getting back over the Footlights, yeah.
And he knew. Implicitly and you know, the
show would go according, you know, if it if it was, if it
wasn't a good audience, then it would be he would go through
things a little quicker, marginally quicker than than he
would. Normally, so you can just
imagine these blockbuster summer.
Yeah. Well, they were a big deal.
I mean, seaside theaters were huge.
Some of them. I mean the Winter Gardens,
Bournemouth, That was quite a big one.
I think the festival theater at Paignton's quite large.
And some of the Blackpool ones are huge.
Well, yeah, not to mention you're always gonna see.
Not to mention. The Winter Gardens at Blackpool.
Yeah, you know, I mean they were just, they were just huge
places. I've got those as strange one.
He did a show, a summer show, at the Winter Gardens in 1964, and
he was. Black in Blackpool.
At the Winter Gardens and he was on the bill.
With the Dave Cloud five which was the.
Weirdest thing. See a group with a chart group
doing summer season. I'm in pieces, bits and pieces
just on that because. We we always try to shamelessly
shoehorn in a reference to The Beatles in this podcast.
Yeah. Did he ever have any reason to
work on the same bill as The Beatles or No, No, I mean the
only thing I say. The only thing he did with The
Beatles was the Yellow Submarine, of course.
Well, yeah, Well. Well.
Except the actually put a stink. Yes, and they edited out.
His bit where he did the thing, but you know, I mean, he did.
Let me see in that he did one of the Blue Meanies, Max.
Yep, he did the mayor. Of pepperland?
Yep, he did. He did 3.
Yeah, he did 3IN that Lance purseful.
Was the captain of the Yellow Submarine?
What's the? Name of a Tony.
And jealous and. There was the guy that was on
the rug from the from the. From the police as well, you
know about this? Oh, Oh yes, I think there was.
There was. There was one of the voice
artistes on the other. Submarine was on the Lam at one
point. Yeah, don't cry though.
It's just extraordinary. But.
Then of course, they only shared with The Beatles.
Remember, because they'd refused to do the Voices.
Yes, they had because they so, yeah, they were.
They were contracted. To do 3.
Films, yeah. And they've done help.
They've done Hard Day's Night Help And they, they, they they
were saying you've got to do a third film.
You've got to do a third film. And then none of them wanted to
do another third, do a third film.
And so, so I'm suggesting, well, why don't you do a cartoon?
And it was the same production house, I think, that did Popeye
theme features or something back to the goons.
Connection Yeah, yeah. So and I, we went.
They'd rescreened it a couple two or three years back and we
went along to watch it. It was fascinating to see it on
the big screen. Yeah, but they wouldn't voice
the. They wouldn't voice the.
Cameras. So they just, yeah, they just
appeared. In that little.
Tiny little bit at the end. Yes, I think, I think one of
them was Jeffrey Hughes. That's right.
And I'm trying to remember, is
it Paul Angelis at all? You know Paul Angelis, He was
in. It, Yeah.
Paul Angelis And it was just, but it was a strange little
thing. But I never knew, you know, I
was at school at the time and I thought, well, that would have
been a feather in me cap if I'd known that one, you know?
But now he kept it a dark secret.
I was able to figure they shouted.
About that, yeah. To him it was just a job.
And also, you see he was a bit of a music snob.
Oh really? So he liked his.
He loved opera and things like opera and jazz.
Not, not modern jazz. Not nothing.
Have on God, thank you. But you know, oh, The Beatles,
oh God, you know it's this that and the other And to him they
weren't they weren't anything to do with the entertainment
business at all. Wow.
You know I. Oh God, you know the weird
childhood I had because I remember my mother when watching
The Beatles on TV. When I think one of the their
first appearance on TV, my mother sat there with a friend
of hers who in fact was my now. There's a there's a, I'll tell
you after it. Anyway, they both watched this
performance and they sat there in Stony silence and it got to
the end and the audience applauded.
And you know, nothing, Nothing over the top either.
And she just turned to her friend and said, well, that's
the end of entertainment as we know it.
Wow. And then you look.
At you look at. Them in their Pierre, Cardin.
Suits. And they're very short hair,
yeah. Combed forward and not a quick
insight. And they were just, they were
extreme. They were almost How dare they?
And then a few years later when they're singing Michelle My
Bell, she mother, mother thought they were the best thing since
sliced bread. It world is very strange now.
He isn't even the stranger thing about about that incident and in
the future and moving forward. The woman that she's sitting
next to is her, her motherinlaw from my mother's second
marriage, my father being as her husband and.
She is her, my mother's brother-in-law, this woman's
other son, her youngest son. And it's called Andrew, a man
called Andrew Carr. And if you look up.
Andrew Carr in connection with Glastonbury.
He's the man who came up. With the idea of the pyramid
stage and where it should be sighted on the farm, all right,
Because he said the lay lines cross here and if you put the
stage here it will be a success. There you go.
That's flawed. You're a fascinating man, Nick.
He was a fascinating man because he was the personal assistant to
Winston Churchill's son very briefly and he got the job
because he fixed the bloke's. Boiler so euphemism.
Yeah, no, seriously. He did.
He went, he arrived there and he was rang the doorbell and there
was no response. But he heard this shouting and
swearing coming from a cellar door.
So he put his head around the door and there's there's
Randolph Churchill. Yeah, Randolph.
Churchill messing around and swearing and cursing and kicking
this boiler and he'd gone there to.
Interview him and she was trying to be a reporter and he said if
you fix this, I will employ you as my personal assistant
assistant. So he did.
He fixed it and then became he and Churchill's granddaughter
became an. Item they went off to Scotland
and ran across. He became a bit of a hippie.
Went to a party at with Princess Margaret and had, should we say,
smoked some very interesting tobacco and the sellers were
probably there. Well, yes, more.
Than likely anyway. So he's sitting next to Prince
Margaret and. He's saying, you see, he said
Jesus, the Lord Jesus, he comes from the planet heaven, planet
heaven. You know, and she's saying and.
She's listening intently to what he's saying, he finished.
And she said, what do you think of that?
She said. Very interesting, and I'll be
sure to pass on your comments to the Archbishop of Campbell.
So there's one one last. Thing I want to bring in here
for me because I find that I've always found this fascinating,
which is the Royal Variety. Show in 1970.
Ah, yes. Which I think must.
Be the only. Occasion, Yes.
When a Royal Variety Show has been compared by one man?
Yes. Sad.
Doing different. Characters, yes.
And then appearing as the top of the bill or near as the top of
the bill. That's right.
And it's also the one where I think it's the one where he did
Mandy and. Turned to the Royal Box as he
was walking off stage and walked off stage towards the Royal Box
and looked up at the Duke of Edinburgh and said hello sailor.
And I think that that happened. Yeah.
It's. It's of all the override issues,
of which some are very good, some are pretty middling, some
are very boring. Just it was just a very strict,
it has an atmosphere already. That show in 1973 have been a
bit belegal. You know, because of the.
State of the country. I suppose because of all the
things that have been on. Oh yeah, that would have been
when he. Was at the top of the, you know,
the peak of his career? Absolutely.
Yeah. The audience just go.
Crazy for him. And it's always like everybody
else is just a distraction. I don't suppose any of you.
Seen any purse glove about, have you?
He's a little bald headed fella about.
My age. And he we're up here on his stag
night, you see, and I've lost him.
We're getting married. Tomorrow you see well, as he
said. He's he's sold his wild oats.
About time he's settled down. It's a nice little thing, no?
Little slip of a girl. She is well, she's only been
drawing her pension for the last two years.
No. They're not.
They're not gonna. They're not gonna.
I know I won't be long, he. Was really at the top of his.
Game then that was the time when he was, as I say, I mean 73.
That would have been that was a N73, I think, yeah.
Yeah, that's usually, yeah. And by that time he'd had a
coronary in 1972, Christmas 72, and also had had a cataract
operation, I think as well, which in those days was extreme
and he was really. Riding high, I think his ratings
were way up with Morecambe and Wise and that's the fact you see
this. Is the thing with the BBC they
never have ever dreaded. I get a little bit angry about
it, but I'm entitled. He, he never ever gets the
credit that he should do from the BBC.
They talk about him in a rather disparaging way.
You know it was oh we could 13 weeks to him and we knew he
would deliver, but they know that's as far as the compliments
go. I think that's I've always
thought that's been. Partly to do with.
An ongoing snobbery. Not just with the BBC, I should
say, but with comment. You know, with commentators and
writers. Yeah, because his demeanor.
And his attitude and his audience and his material, We're
pretty working class. They were, and you just weren't
going to get Ken of. Tynan or or something like that.
Writing appreciations of Dick Emory the same way they did
about Eric Morcombe? No, And I mean Morcom, Eric.
Morcom was a turd of force. You know, I mean, he was the he
was the main part of that act, you know, without.
Ernie Wise wasn't done. It was Eric that really carried
you. In my humble opinion, I agree.
I agree with you and I get. I get House of protests from
people when I say that sort of thing.
No, but it's I think it's true. Oh no, it's absolutely true.
You know what I mean. It's a truism.
I heard this before. I saw GAIL, his daughter, do a
talk, Eric. He told two stories.
About her home life that just have me in fits.
One is that she'd? Seen this boy, the young teenage
girl, and she had the hearts and she gave him her phone number
and she, you know, with the hope that he would call her and they
could arrange, but it said the one thing you always did was you
always tried to be the first of the phone.
So the phone rings and she's not quick enough.
And the conversation. Apparently went like this.
And it's sort of like this little tremulous voice.
Hello, can I speak to GAIL? And this voice says, well, you
could, son, but we don't have a phone.
Oh, right. OK, I'm hung up.
And another time she got a boyfriend that she she she had a
boyfriend who had a sports car, a little MG.
Or something. And he turned up at her house,
and he was wearing brown leather trousers and a brown leather
jacket. And he knocked on the door, and
he got to the door first. And he opened it and he said,
I've come to pick up GAIL, he said.
Oh, come in son. You look like a wallet.
Yeah, before we. You asked me about Benzine,
yeah. Benzine I'm just reading his
biography, but I do remember my mom.
My mom saw him on a couple of occasions.
We lived in the same round, the same area and he knew her of her
and though we didn't sort of see each other as sort of mix as
families, very often she saw him and was you know and it always
you know hello, how are you and all this and.
He told us some stories. And, you know, he told her about
when they were doing Square World, and this is worth it.
This is, you know, they did various things like they sailed
a Chinese junk up the River Thames and fired a cannon at the
Houses of Parliament, which didn't go down.
Well, I have to say. And then there was another set
time where he wanted to do film, make an episode.
One of the episodes with a scene about Moby Dick and.
Wanted to build a model whale, but he had to fill.
Fill out a an application for a license for a vessel.
And so he approached the Thames Conservancy and he got the light
of the paperwork and he had to fill it out.
Length of craft 30 feet beam. 88 feet draft, 2 feet inboard or
outboard motor inboard. Does this craft have a toilet on
board? No.
And then it said overall description of craft.
He's wasted doing this. Great white whale.
It was turned down, but he was he was a marvellous man and he
encouraged dad and he actually puts pushed for dad to have his
own series. He.
He needs his own series and that was the driver.
So if he'd lived. And you know.
Had another say. 1020 years. What do you think he'd have done
Now? It's funny you should say this
because there was he did an interview for Times Time to use
television with Tony Benbow and he talked.
About what he would like to do and various things.
Direct write with the main. Things and do other projects
like I think straight acting RSC.
Do you reckon like? Richard Bryan.
I think he might. Have, I think.
He might have done character acting, full proper character
acting, maintain an entire character for an entire show
without having to do swapping characters and all the rest of
it, but that would have been, I think, I think, his.
This is why I always think he was let down by his, the
managers. I think he should have been able
to do that. I think they should have
encouraged him to do that and look for work.
I think he was, as I said. I think it was a terrible
pressure of maintaining success that drove him hard, but as
directing and writing were two things that he brought up in the
interview with Tony Benbow and I think he most probably been
interesting as a. Writer, and certainly might have
some view be quite good at directing.
Okay, but we never know, no, we often speculated about.
If Sellers had lived, you know, another 20 years, yeah, yeah,
Sellers was very self-destructive, you know, and
yeah, that was there was so much stuff of his lost because he had
a big bonfire at and then yes, that's right, burn things.
But yeah, we should. We will never.
Know but. It's been we've been speaking a
couple of hours and it's just flown by and.
Nick, I'd like to. Thank you very much.
My pleasure. My pleasure.
Thank you. Nice to be.
Remembered. Oh, absolutely.
And. I would like to get you back in
the future, perhaps because there's tons of stuff that we've
not even touched on Hancock. We've barely, barely scratched
the surface of Hancock and your dad's relationship with him.
Chris, is there anything you want to just bring up just
before we No, no, it's just what privileges?
Been to speak to you and what a great opportunity has been to
talk about. One of the most underrated, but
one of the greatest comedians. Actors and.
Personalities that we've. Ever had.
Indeed, yeah. Yes.
Well, yes, he was underrated and but yes, thank you for that, I
always feel like. We should finish with a clip of.
You know Marlena Dietrich at the very end of Touch of Evil, where
he says he would he was some kind of man.
Yes, he certainly was. He certainly was.
Well, good night. I hope you enjoyed it.
Bye.