Now Ned, this nice piece of knotted string lettuce.
We came out watching wax in person.
Plants Natical's teeth have a deep and poignant significance.
They mean that you are in fact the owner of the landing on
which New York stands. By the way, these what's Harry
when they appear. Each what you say, you're in a
different position on the screens.
You know what New York is worth today?
10 billion $600,000.50. Wrong. 10 billion $600,000.40.
Let's have a sense of balance every.
That money must be where the fuck out.
Every time he hits his arms drop off.
This is the ideal way of presenting it.
Hello and welcome to Goon Pod. My name is Tyler Adams and if
you're listening to this, The Week it Goes Out, it will be 60
years since the very first episode of The Telegoons was
broadcast on BBC television and my guest today is come along to
talk about it. IS is possibly the world's
leading authority on the Telegoons.
It's Alistair Roxburgh. Good morning or or good evening
Tyler. I'm pleased to be here.
First and foremost, you you're based.
Now you live in the states. Is that right?
That's correct. Portland OR on an island on the
Columbia River. Wonderful, but you're you're
Kiwi by birth, born in New Zealand.
Yes, that's correct. And in fact, that's that's where
I first developed an obsession with first The Goon Show and
then The Telegoons, which was one of the first shows that
appeared on on our family television that 1964.
As I said, it was. It was 60 years this week that
the first episode was broadcast. It was the ascent of Mount
Everest. And it was shown at 5:40 PM
straight out to Deputy Dog on the 5th of October 1963.
Do you know, nine years after the first Telugu's episode was
shown on the 5th of October 1972?
Do you know what occurred? I don't know.
I don't know what that was. It was the.
The last going show of all was similar cast on BBC TV and
radio. Wow.
Yeah, it's a it's a good date. Yeah, that's it's what we call
auspicious. Auspicious.
Absolutely. I wanted.
I want to talk to you about, you know how you got into the
telegens, how you discovered them.
I'll just briefly give my background to it because I got
into the Goon show of course, originally.
Initially I did get a rather. I don't know what would you call
it, four for fifth generation VHS copy of a bunch of Telegoons
episodes, probably sometime in the early 90s.
And I think that I got that through the Goon Show
Preservation Society. But it was pretty terrible
quality. And I think, I think the only
time before that that I'd seen any footage was they they showed
some a brief clip from an episode on Tally Addicts
presented by Noel Edmonds. So that was that was all I had
really seen the the picture quality was so poor that it
didn't you did, I just didn't really enjoy watching them.
So as you say you know it was it was growing up in New Zealand as
a as a youngster that you you first heard the Goon show and
then happened upon the telly goons.
So how did how did all that come about?
Well, I I began listening to the Goon show when I was 12196162
and of course back then radio series of any kind were were the
big thing because we were still pre television really and most
of New Zealand at that time and so radio was big and so of
course the goon, the goons stood out in the radio landscape and
when television started. The teluguns really stood out
above all else at least in my mind and and I I, I, the
teluguns were like for me were like the fulfillment of of my
interest in the radio show And you know we all had our own
imagination of what the characters Nellie, Seagoon,
Blood, Knock and so on look like and.
When I learned later learned that they the characters were
actually based on sketches by Spike, mostly by Spike and some
of the others, the puppets really were very authentic.
They seemed to me to be the authentic realization of of
these characters, and one of the first ones I remember so vividly
was the last tram. And I think that's one where
there's an explosion and. Blue Bottle ends up and it
exploded sitting up on a lamppost.
They did. Their people were struggling to
get electricity to the trap. Ably assisted by a passing idiot
boy. Now all you have to do is to
join these two cable ends together.
How do you do that, Captain? What lad you keep in that 1000
electricity while I'm still heading the wires with your
captain. I'll give you my word to the
Chinese gentleman. It's a grunt.
Don't switch on the current, then.
Switch on the current. Yes, and it ran that it me, but
it treated it like it. That that was the enduring image
I carried with me. And I I had this idea that I
would really like to to actually meet these puppets.
Meet the people who who work, the puppets, the puppeteers and
more or less it. That's what happened.
And and it all, it all culminated in a in a in a a goon
conference, great grandson of a weekend called Fred.
Four people from the Telugus production came to that and we
had a wonderful time. You know this.
This was like a coming back together of all the clans after.
Being separated for 30 years. So that was one of the one of
the biggest events and it was the culmination of all all of
this interest that started at age 13.
Then I gathered that, am I right saying you went off, obviously
you got older, you went off to college or university and then
were you hunting down film copies?
What were you doing in terms of trying to?
Well, it was all audio. Nobody really knew if there were
any film copies available. It was completely beyond my can
that the BBC and Grove in the films had manufactured a number
of films to send out to various Commonwealth countries, New
Zealand, Australia and Canada. I believe there may be others.
They also made a number of. Spare copies, which they sold to
the rental market, which I I didn't know there was a film
rental market, but this was where the GSPS, the Goon Show
Preservation Society, first obtained copies for a weekend.
If they had a a goon conference on a weekend, they would order a
rental film and they'd view a film.
Copy and then. Then we'll go back to the rental
company. As you know, all of that went
away when the digital revolution happened.
You could buy these phones for a song.
Well, there was a gun show preservation society chap called
Bill Horseman who who? Who knew the rental company.
They knew his interest in it because he would he would come
in there regularly rent. A copy or two.
They they must have offered a good price because even though
he said it emptied his wallet like twice over, he managed to
acquire them. And that's how that's how it
came to the Gsps. But you know, before I knew
about any of this, all we had in New Zealand was they were shown
once on television, then color television came, and of course,
anything that was black and white was.
Completely ignored. And it was lucky if the
materials weren't destroyed, because they're thought to be so
worthless that nobody would ever want to see them again, and nor
had colorization been invented at their point.
And so a lot of material was lost, a lot of it was sold on at
auction. I remember buying some films
myself because I got interested in film restoration.
And that but they was sort of independent of the tailgons and
it was only later that I was able to apply some of that
knowledge to helping preserve these set of 26 films at the
GSPS phones which came from this rental company.
I mean, it's remarkable and we must be thankful that all 26
episodes still exist. Yes, and and you know they.
They're far from pristine. And you know, I think there's
one or two of them. I've got no splices, and there's
there's one that's maybe got like 20 splices.
And every time you splice a film, you lose a fraction of a
second minimum at least A-frame. But more likely there was a tear
and so they might have to trim off.
And if they weren't particularly thinking about reuse and
preservation? So much as just getting the film
on film working again I think. I think people probably bit
liberal with the scissors when they when they did a film
splice. And it turns out many of those
people collected film frames. So they were a bit liberal and
removal of film frames and they had massive collections which
probably still exist of film frames from famous films.
It turns out that the BBC. Originally mastered this this
this series of 26 episodes onto 35 millimeter.
It's called up projection. They took the original 16
millimeter film that was taken in the studio and they up up
converted it optically to 35 millimeter for archival storage
and they apparently have 25 and possibly 26.
Of of these in their archives still and but no one's been able
to price them out of their their hands because they say oh it's
the rights issue with these films is so complicated we just
don't even want to look at it and so a number of companies
have tried to do a DVD yeah of of the telegrams and and and I
I've I've advised on a couple of those and nothing's come.
So anything because in the end they can't figure out who it is
that they should be getting permission from and I'm paying a
royalty or license. Well, if they're on film, which
obviously they are, then I mean, potentially they could be a
Blu-ray release of them one day, couldn't they?
Absolutely. Yep.
Which would be remarkable. Well, I want to just.
I want to go back to the beginning, if you don't mind.
Yes. Can you tell me about Grosvenor
films and? And Tony Young and how he
figures in this story. Tony Young I got interested.
As it happens, I got interested in Tony Young's output as a as a
filmmaker. And I I have a the full copy of
one of his crime dramas called Part of Escape.
And it's significant because one of the actors in that film is
Wendy Danielli. And as you know, Grove, the film
was was started by Tony Young and Wendy Danieli and I I think
it grew out of the fact that Tony did some film work with
With the Goons. I'm not sure if it was Penny
points to paradise that he had. Involvement with and.
And so it was in Tony Young's brand that he hatched a plan.
To to redo the series using using puppets.
What a great idea. Should be easy, right?
I'm picking it up, Professor. She do.
I'm in the mood. It turned out my speech into the
sun. Don't call professor.
You mark my words after your dirt.
People will look up to you. Why I'm going to bury you up a
tree. Look, my team will make a statue
for you like the Albert Memorial.
The Albert Memorial? Why did I think of it?
If they want to sponsor my rocket, I'll try the Albert
Memorial instead. Echoes, harness up properly.
Order, order, order that the Albert Memorial.
It's the very thing, right, Echoes.
Let's go. Get up there.
Turns out the cuff it's a lot harder to direct than people and
you can't go too fast. The the first episode they they
they chose for the pilot. They said, ohh, look, you know,
we don't even have to hire. Secom and and Sellers and
Milligan again because we've got them in the Goon show.
What we've got to do is develop puppet action and turned out
that the puppeteers could not keep up with the with the speed
of delivery of of of the actual radio show.
You know the radio show is faster than I think we realize.
You know when you get someone like Harry Secombe going at full
cult, you know he he's just. He had the fastest lips in the
West, pretty much. See that fascinates me that that
sorry to cut in there. That fascinates me that that the
idea originally was just to take the original broadcast goon show
episodes and just like you say, add the add the puppets.
Because. Right.
And I didn't realize until I was doing research for this that the
pilot, which doesn't exist anymore, the original pilot, it
was filmed literally weeks. After the last proper goon show
ended in 1960 and the whole idea of trying to so I know it
doesn't exist, so we don't really know.
But so obviously if they were just using the soundtrack, you
know the original broadcast episode of a Goon show, you'd
have the audience laughter. You'd have, you know, Wally
starts Orchestra. You'd have what Max and Ray as
well and and everything that was in the show.
Is that right? Yes and no.
I I think they were. They went ahead without any
possibility of being able to to reuse the music again.
That was a licensing problem and it would have been very
expensive. So.
But even taking out the music and interludes, it was still too
fast. And so Morris Wilshere, he he
took it upon himself to cut the action down, cut it back, cut
the stories back to where it could be.
Not only fitted into a 15 minute time slot, but in some ways less
happens in that 15 minutes than the equivalent, if you like time
in the radio show. But that's that's just audio
wise. Visually, of course, plenty
happens and you can have very fast visual action, and so you
have this sort of. Almost like a paradox.
We we we can have as much visual action and as fast as we like
but we have to measure the speed of delivery of of dialogue and
moving around you know walking and and that kind of thing.
The puppet just can't jump from A to B.
It has to sort of we we all, we all remember the way The Muppets
to go think, bounce, bounce, bounce, bounce, bounce.
And that was how they sort of. Walked around.
Of course they had no legs, so you know they had to.
But and some of the Telugu puppets didn't have legs either.
They had two sides of big ones without legs and small
marionettes that did. So, yeah, so you had Rod and
String. That's right.
And and they were designed I believe by Tony Young's father
Ralph, but also Ron Field was in.
That's right. Yeah, and that that's still a
bit murky as a as a historical subject and a bit of
controversy, but I think they both both were involved and
ultimately they the look of the puppets may have been Ralphs,
but it was Ralphs based on these sketches I mentioned that.
The the dude many many of which were doodles you know they these
guys they had downtime where they're waiting for things to
happen and just like in fact the the Telegoons shooting scripts I
have those from two of the puppeteers and there's doodles
all over the place. You know they they would have to
to wait for for things to be set up and more so even on on their
filming than than on the the the radio show.
And anyway, it was, I think to Tony Young's surprise, it was a
lot more difficult to to do it. But he stuck with it and he had
big plans for it, tried to hit the USUSA market there.
I have a copy, You might have seen it, of an advertisement in
Variety, the Variety magazine newspaper and and it they were
trying to tap. Some interest out of the out
into the market there and but and they might have succeeded.
Wasn't they talk of maybe filming them in color to make
them more attractive to the US market?
They would have been pretty far fetched to be thinking of color
in in 1963 or 4. But you know I I think Jerry
Anderson who was like the big competitor in terms of puppet
lip sync. Yeah and top of mouth action in
time with more or less in time with the speech and Jerry, Jerry
managed to managed to switch to color.
So I guess it was very a very real possibility and and it
might have made a difference but what what doomed the project in
in the end really was the the health of the of the production
team. Tony Tony died he he became ill
and he was just about on his last legs when they finished
first series and Tony Young's younger brother David he he died
young too died early and and and and so it's quite it's quite
common when when key figures important people in in a project
and no longer there it may be hard for the for the project to
continue because often it's the vision of that one person and
then probably Tony yeah yeah that was driving it.
OK, so this pilot that doesn't exist anymore was was based on
the Goon show, the sale of Manhattan.
But, and I understand Spike visited the rented hall where
they were making it and it was, it was around about 30 minutes
long. I've heard a couple of times
that he visited that I've not been able to find out much about
that it doesn't exist. And yet it still does because of
course it was a very long film. And what they what they did with
that is they got the scissors out and they cut it back.
And in fact I've noted in a few cases where you can find footage
it clearly belonged in that pilot used as stock footage in
some of the other episode. And and the the the clue is that
things don't quite the continuity is not there.
That should be there. You know you see just a minute
wait a minute that that doesn't look like it belongs here.
Even though, you know, fills a space with a needed piece of
footage, In fact I believe it'll be possible to reconstruct much
of the pilot as as it was shown just by by taking these with a
video editor and taking these little pieces and then putting
them back in there. I've been unable to do that.
It's a matter of time more than anything.
I have other other projects and this is this is just one of my
most long lived projects. Dear Sis, I am a keen art
student over the age of 21. Please forward me your selection
of Continental Art studies in the plain Rapids.
It's a lie I was writing to my mother.
Dear lovely mother Major, send me your major unrapped rappers.
Major grave type news. I've spoken to Whitehall and the
PECO. Deny that we're alive, right?
I've never had a day's death in my life to hear the the editing
of the telugus just about drove the editing crew bananas.
I mean they they just about lost all their hair and just about
jumped off a building I think because there was the difficulty
of not just making the audio match with with the puppets but
the fact that a lot of the audio got re dubbed.
When Peter Sellers arrived late to the project, they had a big
press confab and and and the for us the benefit of that is that
that some photographs were taken and you've probably seen the
photograph looking through a sound booth window.
That that was the little party they put on to welcome Peter
from Doctor Strangelove which it was late getting off and in fact
Peter was so late Tony Young thought they might have to
cancel the whole project because you can't present something pre.
You know you can't warm up your market saying we've got the
three goons, they're coming back and you end up having only two
of them. And so they went ahead with some
kind of standin for Peter's parts and when Peter arrived, in
order to make it authentic, they had to edit in or redub all of
Peter's parts. Now there are some sharp year
down fans of the show who said not everything was edited out
and and to me that's a measure of how much strain the film
editors were under and probably this was something that had
never been done before. It wasn't.
It wasn't a routine project by any means.
So this is 1963, early 1963. So nice Spike and Harry were
there to record the audio right from the beginning.
As you say Sellers was late joining them but we're both,
well we're all three enthusiastic about the project.
I don't have an answer for that just off off the cuff I can, I
can relate it to how Spike felt about the the ratings of the
program once it broadcast. But the problem was the the
powers that be in the BBC presented it not as a as as
puppetry for adults. They got that wrong at all.
Humor abounds in the Telogans and visual as well.
If you have your eyes open, you can see all kinds of things and.
Yeah, there's a I'm sure there's A and the Tales of Odamo.
There's a picture of a topless woman on a wall.
There's all kinds of stuff and the props and the innuendo and
speech, it's quite for anyone. Adults didn't take to it.
It was the 1314 year olds that did, and they were the ones that
would became the enduring fans of the of the pro of the series
and in fact kept it going in in television comic for for three
years, which is a long period of time for a series lasting some
two years or a year and a half. Yeah, and it kept going.
And the comic long after it was no longer being broadcast.
The Telekins strip, if you like, in TV comic.
It was drawn by Bill Titcomb and written by Dick Millington.
And it was. It lasted until 1967.
Yes, I say, I've been watching some episodes.
I watched the episode The Booted Gorilla.
Which is the second series, and quite clearly Henry Cron is
being voiced by Spike Milligan. Henry, answer the door.
I can't find it. Me.
Oh, you've lost the dot again. No, no.
I had it out yesterday to let the cat in.
What did you do with it? I had it.
Did not in there. You didn't know?
I tell you mean if I shot that. Nada.
What are we looking for? I thought oh, the DA.
Yeah. Yes, the DA.
Yeah. Run.
Be a minute. So there's an example, like you
said just before of, you know, an episode where.
Sellers hasn't gone back and actually re dubbed that one.
Yeah, you know, I don't doubt that there's this kind of thing
in there to be discovered. After all, when Tony Young said
the three goons are coming back to voice this new series, this
wonderful new television series with live action, puppetry and
so on, he he, he never said that was going to be every episode
was going to have all three all the time.
You know, I mean, absolutely redubbing the majority of the
dialogue or the majority of episodes was probably sufficient
to to not stretch it too far. And do you know what was the?
What was the criteria for show selection?
And what I mean by that is. Because I looked, I worked it
out. So of the 26 Tally Goons
episodes, one show came from series three of The Goon Show,
three were from series four of The Goon Show, nine were from
series 510 were from series 6, three were from series 7, and
there was nothing beyond that. OK.
And I and I I'm assuming that's very suggestive because I'm
assuming that the subsequent series of Goon Show episodes.
All the subsequent series of the goon show were quite loose or
looser and not so reliant on plot, whereas there was a bit
more plot in that sort of mid period of the goon shows.
Was that was that why was that? Was that part of the criteria
for those shows being selected? You know, I don't know, but you
may have hit on it because I I think you've just made what what
would be called a defensible argument in court if you were
presenting this. The jury would probably say
yeah, that sounds that sounds pretty, pretty plausible.
Now I was looking at the the ratings, So the ascent of Mount
Everest, the first episode of the telegoons that attracted 4
million viewers in the UK then. The following week's show was
The Lost Colony, which had been the pilot episode rerecorded.
Yeah. That dropped to 3 million, but
then it would appear that by its peak, which was lurgy strikes
Britain I think was the highest rated telegrams episode.
There were 7 million viewers for lurgy strikes Britain.
But I gather that and I think you were, you were going to
touch on it before you began to to talk about it before Spike
wasn't happy with the ratings, is that right?
Yes because the the the people they were polling because I
think back in the day they they was fairly primitive.
They they found out who was viewing what and how many and
how many by going on door to door and and asking and and they
they the the poll people were targeting the people that The
Who were the target of the program which was adult
audiences and the adult audiences decided this wasn't
for them and what they needed to do was go to the schoolyards of
of England the the day after the the the episode was shown on
television and just open their ears and just listen to the to
the the kids repeating the catch phrases as they had learned from
the latest episode on television and it would have got a very
different picture. So a good friend of mine who
knew Spike presented him this, this, this evidence if you like,
and he was actually very pleased.
But who who knew that that it was going to appeal so, so much
to to to teenage? Yeah, well, you say that, but,
but the Goon Show is very the radio Goon Show is very popular
with old ages, particularly I'd say teenagers.
The Tally Goons comes in for quite a bit of Flack as I'm sure
you know criticism or it it kind of without wanting to offend you
Alistair. It kind of gets dismissed that
you have to look at who's doing the dismissing and in most cases
it's what they call dyed in the wall, crusty old goon fans who
are who are very very inflexible in their in their approach to to
to new media. This is this is what it looks
like you you the the evidence is if you like overwhelming that
the telegoons objectively were perfect for what they for what
they were and and it's difficult to know how how how they could
have been improved. I mean sure you say color.
In fact on the website I have a colorized version of one of the
stones that were taken at that press conflab and and I I think
it would have been delightful to to have seen to seen in the
color and high definition. But you know yeah I've I've I've
heard I've heard that kind of resistance to the telegrams I've
come across it. But it it really, it really
boils down to, I think, and I hate to say it, but I think some
people don't like other people enjoying their pet interest in
in a in a different kind of a way.
So how dare they change the producer Telugus and claim that
this is the authentic, this is an authentic representation of
the original ideas in The Goon Show?
Yeah, as I said, I had a VHS copy of a bunch of episodes, and
it was so. It was so muddy and wobbly and
in some cases unwatchable. Just due to the picture quality,
you know that won't have helped the Tallygoon's reputation down
the years, cuz that's all people.
That's the only that's a valid point.
And I was made one of the members aimed A camcorder, VHS
camcorder at a screen and it's sort of offset a little bit cuz
you can't have you can tilt the screen.
You can try and get everything regularly.
You know the problem. You would like to have the
camera where the projector is. Yes, but you can't.
You have to have it after one. So you have to tilt the screen
so you get a. There's a kind of a distortion
created nevertheless by doing that.
And then what you saw would have been probably at least third
generation and then the generation loss.
Absolutely. So if there was in the future,
some at some point. A pristine Blu-ray release of
the telegoons. I think people would reappraise
and reevaluate. Yeah, I think I think that's
valid now. Of course those people like
myself and probably you who have looked very carefully at at the
images on the screen. One thing I noticed is in in
improving the quality and being able to repeat view it.
Because when it when it appears once on television, you can as
they say, you can get away with anything on television cause
it's gone, No2 seconds later it's gone and if you blinked you
missed it anyway. And with the advent of home
video, people can now pause and rewind and replay and there's,
there's errors in production, which are there.
I'm I'm presumed because they just didn't have time to just
stop and fix things on a very, very tight schedule.
And they had to do that show in a week.
And if at the end of the week there was some missing elements,
they had to sort of fudge it. So the director would have said
no, just just clip a bit of that ocean bathtub and ocean scene
from the pilot and you use that instead.
Now those kinds of decisions or or or they were you know maybe
maybe the camera was closer to to some of the props and was
intended and so they don't look quite you know they look you
know that maybe a bit ropy or a bit just not quite finished bit
artificial and and I think if you if you can get lost in the
in the sound in the dialogue and and the sound effects I I think
that tends to dominate the experience at least that's my
experience sure other people may be more dominated by what they
see and less what they hear. Yeah, yeah, that's a good point.
I want to talk about the. So the puppeteers, very
celebrated puppeteers at the time, John Dudley and Field and
Violet feeling, is that right? Yeah.
So tell me a little bit about
them. Well, of course Ann was a
daughter of Ron Field and in fact Ann's family was was a
puppeting family. The the Field puppets were if
not world famous, they were certainly famous throughout the
the throughout Britain. They they did royal command
performances. They did private showings here
and there for birthdays of royal family members and that kind of
thing. And they their fame doesn't just
stop with with the telegrams. They they had a lot of other
work that they did and which is well known at the time, less
well known now because much of it never made it across that
divide between black and white and color and in production
methods have improved. So something that can be very
entertaining live has to be much better when you when you see it.
A recording of it. I've noticed live music
performances always seem to be almost perfect no matter what,
You know, it's the experience dominates any imperfections that
might exist. Yeah, but once once you're
separated from it and you're listening to a recording or
seeing a music video, it's not as visceral, It's not as
immersive. And another part of our brain
that's the intellect starts to really pick holes in that, you
know, and it's a less satisfactory experience.
Little cross eyed hairless pipe cleaner.
Were you followed up this platform by two men?
I'm not gonna tell you shitting me like that.
Come come, little 2 stone Hercules.
Tell me if you saw two men and you can have this quarter of
Dolly Mixtures. Dolly mixture.
Hey, these type sweets I could influence certain girls at play
time. That Brenda Pugh might be
another Jane Mansfield for all on there.
That Jane Mansfield I find big girl here.
I think I better start wearing long trailers soon.
Can you tell me? Yes, my captain.
I saw two nice men walking up the line towards the signal box
here that day. They must stop them, prick.
Ann Field as she was in there. She's Ann Perrin nowadays.
She was there at the beginning and she in a in a way that was
there protecting her father's work to make sure that he got
credit. In fact, I I don't think there's
any credit for Ron Field in in the films, the credits often
reflect the standing of the production people with the with
the producers. If there was a dispute going on
quite often first thing to happen is someone just dropped
off the credits and and so Ann was there and until there was a
big dispute blew up over lip sync and there was an article in
the stay in stage magazine. The core I think the heading was
some patent pinching and the the allegation was that Grosvenor
Films had been using an automatic lip sync technology
that which is subject of Ron Field's patent that were too
cheap to to pay a royalty or a license to use it.
So right. Anyway enough enough said about
that. The the other property is John
Dudley very well known at the time real name Richard Wheeler
that John Dudley was his stage name.
He he's extremely well known worldwide these days in Punch
and Judy. The Punch and Judy puppet show
is is a phenomenon that has continued to grow and he he has
been part of that. He he brought a level of how how
would you put it, very, very formal experience and wisdom to
to the production. I think he was a huge asset when
it came to keeping it on the rails.
And Anne, on the other hand was she was an artist involved in
all aspects of puppetry, from making the puppets to operating
them to and has made her own films.
You know, all aspects of that Violet feeling who who became
she married Mr. Philpott. I forget his first name.
He was extremely widely known puppeteer.
And she, she married him and became Violet.
Violet Philpott. Yeah.
And. And she has a she has a stepson
who's also he he, he does the most humorous puppet videos.
They're on YouTube and I I can't give you a reference to it right
now but his name is Toby Philpott and and Puppetoon.
I'm not sure if it's Puppetoons or or Puppetoons is similar but
I just forget the name of his ones.
These were people who were the best at their craft at the time
and you know they were already highly highly appreciated and
accomplished and any any deficiencies you you see in the
puppeting is not probably not really they're doing.
It's probably that they didn't have time to to do a retake or
just precious of production just forced it to to move ahead and I
think it didn't help that Tony young directed the puppets
whereas he he wasn't used to having to direct the person
controlling the puppet. I I think they all felt it was a
strain but then you know this I think television puppetry even
if it's in front of a film camera and not live hey live
would be even even worse where where resources are limited and
where we can't we we we this this is the final take we can't
do another one after that and you know that you've got to do
it got to get it right this time.
The pressure at the time was probably just about unbearable I
think and I get that impression and yet there were times when
they were waiting for stuff to happen and and they could they
they spend time practicing moves and the lip sync because they
did the lip sync manually. For quite a lot of the episodes
it was a switch and they would just use the thumb to to move
move the puppets lips. See these puppets are quite
advanced. I mean they they had this lip
sync solenoid and they moved their eyes from side to side
they could close their eyes and so on.
They were they're being rubber latex say they moved in a way it
was very similar to how it how people move.
Some people have been folded to thinking that even those crummy
VHS copies were actually real people with makeup on.
So I I've actually been in the room and that.
Well, I could, I could understand that.
Maybe with with Neddy to to a degree, yeah.
I mean the puppets themselves. You've got the I've jotted.
I've just jotted this down. As we were talking.
I think there's the seven principal puppets this Grit Pipe
or 8 even, because I forgot Echoes Grit pipe, Moriarty, Blue
Bottle, Blood dot, Neddy, Henry, and Minnie.
Were there other puppets as well that they would just change you
know put different wigs on or yes there there was what there
was one who was the often the policeman I think Willem William
and and he would be marginally dressed and you know differently
to make him look a little different but you consider see
he was the the same the right puppets.
So you can you can imagine if so you're sitting at your office
desk and near your rod puppet. The rod puppet would be taller
than taller than you are. You wouldn't be looking eye to
eye with that. Whereas the Marionette, you've
seen the Marionette because right right there on on the
Telugus website those are the marionette puppet and you can
tell because they have legs and there's the rod puppets they
call it also call it half puppets because they stop at the
at the waist. I have a photographic study of
the of the needy puppet which I haven't fully exploited yet to
just to document how how they how they built those out.
I have a theory. It's quite likely that Ron Field
was more involved with making building the rod puppets and
Ralph Young more involved with the marionettes because Ron had
a mechanical aptitude. His patents show that he he
presented diagrams of lipstick and so on and and and on the
website they actually have a sort of synthetic X-ray view of
of the neti Segun puppet is right at the end of the puppets
section and you can see there's three solenoids and there's
springs and linkages and and I I have some video of the mouth
movement. I'm looking looking from the
other direction. This is looking at the back of
the of the puppet's head. And some of this is sort of
artificially constructed because nearly probably even today
doesn't look like this. It's actually covered with what
remains of the latex and and, but some of it could be lifted
up and then took a photograph and you can actually see a few
spots where this pinkish material, 123445 spots where
that still is in the photograph. Because I didn't, I didn't
delete it. I thought it was useful to leave
some of it there, but it wasn't possible to get this view all in
one go, because that would mean disassembling an artifact that
probably deserves better treatment than that.
Yeah, yeah. Hello, Lloyds of London.
About that life insurance against drowning?
Yes. On my son, Nitty.
Yes. Well, it appears to have
matured. You'll bring the money around.
Thank you. No, not tonight, dear.
The episodes themselves, there was several elements to Telly
Goon's episode. You'd have the the puppets
themselves, the puppetry, the puppets you'd have.
Very often stop footage as you mentioned before.
You'd have animation sometimes, and you've got quite often
humans actually appearing, for example as a hand or.
Yeah, as a hand, a close up if someone's shuffling cards or
whatever. But also coming back to the
booted gorilla episode that I watched, I'm quite.
Sure. That's not an actual gorilla.
That's a human in a gorilla outfit.
I'm sure that's the case. Or it could be a small human
like a child going by the size of the rod puppets.
They're sort of child size interesting sorts.
Just one more point. You were talking about the
structure of the episodes, and I think the most important one is
that they all had what's called a warm up.
Oh, the pre credit sequence. Yeah, they call it a warm up or
it's got various names, but that's short and it's not even
on the subject usually, but it could be, could be anything that
it's really just to get your attention and then the story
starts. And the puppets themselves?
What became of them? I know that some still exist,
but there's I gather. They don't all exist.
The original puppets, I mean. Well, another whole side to this
story is that the young family is little larger than we've
talked about so far. And David Young, it's Tony's
younger brother. He was, he married aunt Tina
Williams as an actress in her own right.
They bought a restaurant. In fact, they ended up with four
restaurants around the Twickenham area.
And they were all themed restaurants.
And at least two of them had Telugu's puppets as part of the
decor. The first one, in fact, probably
the most famous, Nellie Mcqueen's, the Nellie Mcqueen's
Eating house and some brown Thames, 41 Thames St. it.
It's got a Victorian post box. So it's a unique building.
It's a it's it's a historic listed building.
It's got stained glass windows. In fact, I learned just last
week that that David actually, we covered that stained glass
from a local church that was being demolished and he used
that to to dress up 41 10th St. and it's beautiful really.
I mean right now I think the latest information is it's it's
vacant. The sooner or later someone else
will come along and set up. When it when I went by it was
called Bar 41 anyway, there was Nellie Mcqueen's, there was
Maggie Mcqueen's which is in Saint Margaret's Twickenham.
Then there was Lily Lang Trees in at 59 York Street in
Twickenham and that became the that changed name.
They this is during their ownership they they changed it
to Mcqueen's Pizza Parlor and after that it became Mcqueen's
Carousel. And the theme for Queen
Mcqueen's carousel was as as you can imagine just think of a
fairground carousel on everything that goes along with
that and you think puppets fall right into that and it and it
seems like there were telegram puppets at that one as well And
then it later became Dixie Mcqueens.
And it seems like when David died Tina was unable to keep the
whole thing running on her own and they they she she sold them
before they were sold the puppets were and lot of the lot
of the stuff was removed some of the puppets were were purchased
by someone who took them out east.
Eventually they ended up on the Isle of Wight.
In fact, we got a photo of of three of the puppets, Echols,
Blue Bottle and Minnie Bannister.
Marionette puppets had been found on the Isle of Wight and
the person wanted to know was the did the Gsps wish to buy
them and that they were unable to negotiate a suitable price
and so they were going to go to auction.
But as far as I know, they've never been auction, so they'll
be languishing on a shelf. Yeah, cuz I've seen photographs
and some of these puppets. I'm not sure if it's the same
three you mentioned there, but in a pretty poor, pretty poor
condition. Yeah, looks of it.
So we know those three. And then the Guentry
Preservation Society has the needy rod puppet.
And there were various other rumors, but two of them actually
even there was a rumor that Spike had one of the had the
Echoes puppet. In fact, the photographs used to
be available on one of those stock photo websites and showing
Spike having a wonderful time with mostly with with the Echoes
puppet in his office at home. Delightful pictures.
It turned out that the echoes that Spike retained, in which
Jane, the daughter Jane acquired, was one of the
commercial toys produced by a company that Tony and Wendy
formed called Tone Win. Tone Win.
You can see the ads for their for their puppet, for their for
their Telugu and Dolls and Marionettes and TV comic of all
places. Yeah, that glove.
Glove puppets. Yeah.
So yeah, Glove puppet. And then the doll is anyway
Turns out that what Jane Milligan had was one of these
and the other one that we tried to track down it was one of
these as well. And I I actually have each of
those. The version of each of those
here in in storage they're they're not hard to find.
The the the glove puppet version to those the Edinburgh toy
Museum got some and there's a there's a puppet museum in East
London which I I forget the name of hand.
I think they have some. So they are around, but you know
we sort of drew a blanket. Those four puppets you said,
well there's probably about, you know, there could be 10 or 12
puppets originally and we know where that we know of four of
them. So what happened to the others?
You never know. They may be in someone's loft in
a box, but it's unlikely. Isn't it really these days?
Well, it's it's, it's possible that Tina Williams says his son,
she has a house in London that she lives.
She lives overseas in Europe most of the time, and she she
said she's got scripts and puppets in her loft back back in
London, but she hasn't told me what.
I'm not sure that she remembers exactly what she's got there.
So we could say, yeah, maybe there's one or two more, or see
the light of day and then others, if they'd look too
disreputable, probably get tossed at some point.
You mentioned the merchandise or merchandising, of course, the
very distinctive, We haven't mentioned the theme tune by
Edward White and that was released as a single in what,
literally the month after. The Teleguns began.
It was really the theme Tune was released as a single what's it
called? Telegun Tune.
Is that right? Telegun tune.
Yep. I'm just gonna run through.
For the benefit of listeners who you know, who might, who may be
curious, I'm just going to very quickly run through the the 26
episodes. I mean, I'm not, I'm not going
to talk about each show, but I'm just going to run through the
titles. So for the first series, you've
got the ascent of Mount Everest, then The Lost Colony, which was
based on the sale of Manhattan episode of The Goon Show.
Than the fair of Wages, which was Spike's favorite episode of
the Goon show. Napoleon's piano.
The last tram China story. The canal.
And then we got choking horror. But now I believe that was
scheduled to go out on the 30th of November, but it was
postponed because they were repeating the first episode of
Doctor Who. Then you've got the Hastings.
They're remarkable by the way. They were scared that Doctor Who
wasn't going to properly take and that once they got it, they
couldn't ever get rid of it. Yeah, then you got the Hastings
Flyer, the mystery of the Mary Celeste International Christmas
Pudding, and the second series Scratch the Booted Gorilla, The
Underwater Mountain, which was based on the greatest mountain
in the world from Series 4. Dreaded back to Putting her with
Excellency Tales of All Dartmoor, Lucas Strikes Britain.
Captain Segoon RN which is based on personal narrative from
Series 7, The First Albert Memorial to the Moon.
Whistling Spire, Enigma, Tales of Monmatra, Africa Ship Canal,
Fair of the Lone Banana, The Terrible Revenge of Fred
Fumanchu, The Nature Plague and the Siege of Fortnight, or the
Underwater Gas Stove. So those were the episodes.
Do you have a particular? I know you mentioned the last
tram, but is there of those? Is there a particular episode
that is your stand out episode That would be the one you would
always go to or turn to. It would have to be a toss up
between the canal and the last tram.
For what reason I don't know. I used to travel by electric
tram car when I was a kid, and we still had them before they
melted them down. And in the canal I always, I
long had a thing about canals. In fact I even bought a house in
Miami, FL and lived there the number of years for the canal
running running by the bottom of the garden.
So you know, and we used to say to each other, you know, Nelly.
Then I told you to stay away from the canal.
One day my wife, Jan, she was reaching for a duck, and she
suddenly found herself in the canal.
I. Don't think I've ever heard of
someone's wife reaching for a duck.
There was a duck in need of help or something like that and and
it was about a four foot drop between the limestone bank and
the and the water and she got the shock of her life.
Lucky there wasn't any snapping turtle waiting for it down
there. But she managed it is.
And meanwhile I was at work and completely unknowing of of the
drama. So yeah OK those are the those.
I basically have admitted the reasons why those two episodes,
and I have other favorites as well.
You know, I'd say about half of them I really enjoy and we
should do a poll at some point and let's find out more
objectively what which ones work.
Well, OK, you may not be able to answer this, or you may not even
want to answer it, but what don't you like about the tally
goons? What?
What would you improve if you could or what?
Criticisms. Do you have, if any?
You may not have any. I I think if I had been there
and a member of the production it would have been I would have
found it very hard, very difficult at times because it's
you know a film production is not a democracy it's it's a
hierarchy and what's been said at the top goes and you know it.
Let me let me just think about that the some some things that
just they are what they are because that was the technology.
That is a funny, funny phenomenon isn't it that the
further on we get the more we value some of these early early
technological creations. It's.
Well, yeah, the older I'm getting, I'm watching a lot more
older TV. You know, from before I was
born, I was born in the 70s and I watch a lot of old, you know,
60s stuff now, that is gradually, you know, companies
like Network, DVD were putting out previously unrepeated shows
from the 60s. And I'm revisiting.
I'm not revisiting. I'm discovering these shows.
And yeah, it's there's something very comforting.
About watching that, that era, you know, what I don't like is
not anything to do with the shows themselves because they,
let's say that they are their works of art and they they are
what they are and so on. But what I don't like is that
the BBC is sitting on this horde of high quality films, 35
millimeter film prints and caught in this copyright
quandary. And and BBC is infamous for the
fact reputedly Peter Sellers used to receive a inch thick or
more wide of those old style computer printouts from the line
printer every every year or something.
Which would list all the times and he had that they had used
his chord. He did this funny chord on the
piano and the BBC put that on one of their Grams discs and
they used in a lot of places and every time, every time it got
used he'd get a pound or £10. Something like that.
And that's what they print out was documenting.
And when you when you remove their ability to account when
their accountants can't see The Who owns the rights and
unfortunately the telegrams we're not sure if it belongs to
Grove in the films BBC jointly despite Milligan's estate.
We just, we just don't know. And I think that's why two DVD
projects have failed to to come to to anything.
Because it's not, it's not something that money can fix.
It's information is lacking. And really what they should do
is just declare an amnesty. Spike has gone Grover.
The films is well, gone. Wendy Danielle may still be
alive but she's very elderly. She lives in Wales.
See Anfield may be a the father who parents are gone but maybe
she's a beneficiary of any any any royalty payments.
Who knows? Nobody knows that it's called
copyright. Hell in in the industry program
stuck in it and they very rarely get out of it.
And the only way you get to see it is through bootlegs.
Basically that's it's. That's why they exist.
Well, hopefully at some point some heads can be knocked
together and this can get sorted out one way or another.
Yeah, heck, do it. Do it.
Make some money while you still can with it.
And then if there's anything needs to be fixed up, you know
retrospectively that that can be done and they could even afford
to do it. Penny points to Paradise was
interestingly enough, was stuck in this kind of a thing.
One of the actors in that Alfred Marx, he didn't like the way he
came across in that film. So he went around and bought up
every copy he could get his hands on and destroyed them.
And the the BFI was the only copy known.
Now you can find it on YouTube. I've got a I've got a copy of it
on BFI DVD. I'm looking at it right now,
actually. Well, so they see.
There you go. BFI said we've got this.
We can, I presume. Anyway, we can make some money
from this. We can make people happy.
Except Alfred Marks or his descendants.
And if there's any problem, we'll come and talk to us and
we'll work it out. Oh, Mr. Flake is a Mr. Donald
it. I'd like you to meet our two new
guests, Mr. Haynes and Mr. Gray. Delighted, I'm sure.
Delighted. Well, Mr. Delighted, I'm having
flakers. Since it's Spike Donnelly, my
pal. I'm delighted.
No, he delighted. Mr. Flakers, I'd like you to
meet my colleague, Mr. Graves. Oh, that digger.
Graves from six feet down under 6 feet.
Graves, why don't you drop dead? I'm Spike Donnelly.
Why don't you drop dead too? This is the most enjoyable
encounter is to play. Because Missus Brown has told me
so much about you. I feel as though I blew you all
my life. I'm sure we're going to get on
very, very well together, this play because I trust you sleep
well. I'll stop a boy like the dead.
Yeah, dead drunk. You know, that poor boy has got
the spoon doing. I had a strange dream last
night, Major. Really.
Yes. And two men came into my room,
pulled me out of whiskey and then crept out again.
Good dog. You are in a bad way.
Looks to me as though you've got the real spawn Durex.
You know, there I was at 13, I I was enthralled by the telegrams
on on television. It was one of the first TV
programs I ever saw and formulated this this thought you
know I would like to see those if you like touch those puppets.
So my life went on and and as it turns out I could easily afford
to make several financially to make several research visits to
to Britain. And I had incredible luck on on
those visits. I I met people just out of the
blue who who worked with with Tony Young or who did this or
did that and it it amazed a few people in the in the GSPS.
Gee he just walks in and he just walks up to you know people that
we've been trying to track down for donkeys years and and and
and more broadly than that I mean I I I stayed with the
Titcomb said their invitation in in in Norfolk in in their 1700s
house very very very interesting experience and he he and Bill
gave me a tour through the day's army museum which he was very
involved with. So right right along I the my
research has benefited from the the good offices of everybody I
met they just an incredible bunch of people who who really
are the ones who made this possible and and I'd like I'd
like to thank them for for that it's it's been an incredible
ride I was. Gonna say you sound like you've
had a very full life and fulfilling life and it would be
capped or topped if if only the BBC could somehow find a way to
release decent DVD or Blu-ray release of of the delegates.
Yeah, yeah, it'd be nice if we had infinite time and and you
know the website, if I had a few 100 hours to spare I could
probably dress it up and and make it more modern and this
there's a but it really doesn't matter too much.
Most of my time is involved in a complete different project these
days, and that's probably going to take Take Me Out if you like
to say that. OK.
Well, Alistair, thank you so
much for your time. I I did actually solicit a bunch
of questions from. Tune Pod listeners and I've got
quite a quite a number of questions, some of them quite
facetious and which I won't repeat.
But to be honest with you, most of just running through these
questions most of the most of the questions have been we've
answered anyway already during the course of our conversation.
So what I what I thought I wanted to just finish with is
the thoughts of chap called Duncan Gray, who's a former
guest on the On the Pod. So he just said, look, I don't
really have a question about the telegoons, more of a memory, he
says. When I first listened to some
goon shows, probably in my 30s, because he got into it late, I
got a sense of deja vu in a sort of black and white animation
sort of a way. Eventually I realized I must
have seen the original transmissions of the telegoons
when I was 6 or 7. Two particular cases were in the
greatest mountain in the world. When the newly built mountain
gets blown up and in Napoleon's piano, when they laid out a map
of Paris and traveled across it to get to the Louvre, I wonder
if anyone else had that experience.
I'm not anti telly goons, they could never be as good as the
radio shows. So rather than moan enjoy them
for what they are. I say yeah, I mean, if if
necessary. They talk about alternate
universes for this sort of thing.
You know, even the Canon for whether it's Star Wars or Star
Trek, they deviate, yes. And they say, well, don't worry,
just think of that as being an alternative set of events, you
know, Maybe it's a different universe, but it's still still
Star Trek, you know? Yeah.
It's like, don't compare Columbo with Mrs. Columbo, yeah.
Yeah, they they, they, they they they have the some of the same
DNA, but they they're different as well, Yeah.
Anyway, I I would say and it could well be the could well be
the title for this, the Telegoons.
What else? What next?
Yeah. All right, Alistair, we'll
listen. Thank you so much as I say and
all the best with your ongoing project or projects that you're
engaged with. And if anyone listening has the
wherewithal has the influence to somehow get on to whoever the
powers are that have the ability to release the tally goons on
DVD, then pull your finger out. All right, well, listen.
All the best, Alistair and all the best.
And by the way, I've heard very good things from the hardcore of
the Gsps about your your effort. So look at oh.
Really. Oh, lovely.
This. This has been quite an
experience. Thank you for the opportunity
and I hope you can make at least a couple of sentences out of
this. This will probably lead lead
places. I mean just our conversation
that's woken up some some dead ends which are worthy of
consideration. So anyway, thank you Tyler.
It's been been wonderful. Well, that's all we have time
for tonight.