One of the key things of those days, and much certainly amongst
this, what I would regarded then as an inner circle, was we were
sublimely confident of the importance of our work and we
regarded ourselves as as like Jacobean in in in importance.
If anyone at the BBC would dare to say you change this change,
that we would just tear off a strip at them.
Hello and welcome to Goombot, the podcast that keeps me busy
and off the streets. Thus, in its own way, providing
a public service. My name is Tyler Adams, and this
week I'm afraid to say I'm joined once again by the writer
Mike Haskins. Thank you, Tyler.
Hello, Thank you for having me back on your lovely podcast,
which I, which I love listening to every week.
It's great. Thank you for that.
So Mike, you've been busy. I mean, you've got.
Yeah. Are you going to ask me what
I've been up to? What have you been up to?
Very little. Well it's it's Griff is on tour,
so I don't know when this is going going out, but he's on
tour in. He's been on tour in April and
he's still in tour in on tour in May.
Check local press for details. So I've been help helping him a
little bit with that. It's not this.
Is this is Griff, Griff, Rhys Jones.
Griff Rhys Jones, Yes, prick, is what?
Do you? What do you?
What's your title script associate?
Well, no. You know how how Spike said
about Larry the best, But in fact, no, I'm not even the best
paid typist in the business. I'm the worst paid type anyway.
And now, and now guess what? He comes on and this is in his
show. He comes on and does this
routine about AI and whatever and how hilarious this is.
And he reads it out a bit of, you know, he gets an AI kind of,
you know, ChatGPT actually supporter of that listeners, I
have to do this for him. I have to do ChatGPT, and he
does this sort of routine, that ChatGPT has written for him, for
the place he's in that day. And he makes fun of it and
everything, right. So he does all this about how AI
is rubbish and everything, and then he's actually replaced me
with AI because I used to go along.
This is literally true. I used to go along and type up
everything that he said and then, you know, like in the
show, because if you've got a audio file of it, then it's just
sort of difficult. But then I would write it all up
and present it to him and do sort of, you know, bullet points
and, you know, this joke you did here and blah blah blah.
And do you know, kind of a long version and a shorter version of
the show and everything. Anyway, he's found an AI program
which which does a transcript automatically, which is
absolutely brilliant. So anyway, I'm I'm sure there'll
be other bits and I generally help him.
It's not a big thing I'm not doing, you know, he he can do it
all himself, obviously. He's brilliant and he's got all
these stories, he's really good, but he likes a little bit of,
you know, encouragement shall we say, and a few extra jokes here
and there. So I I do that and I've been
doing my Beatles, Liverpool talks.
They go down very well. As I was telling you before we
started Grifted, his first night in Guildford, he was only
playing a tiny place because it was the first night of his tour.
It was a try out, but I was very pleased to be able to tell him
that day. I had played to a bigger
audience at Heswell Hall that day myself, doing my Beatles
Liverpool talk. However, the last laugh was on
me actually, because I went on too long and usually, you know,
it's it's, it's quite good doing these Beatles talks because they
quite enjoy it, these people, and then they all come and buy
your book afterwards. So it's great.
But however, I went on a bit too long, so do you know what that
meant? It's all these people made a
dash for the door at the end because they were all in the pay
and display car park and they needed to.
I only only sold about four books.
It was tragic, terrible. So I won't let that happen
again. Yeah, OK.
I've got this image in my mind. You know when you talk about you
and Griff. Yes.
And this is going to, this is going to be really insulting and
I apologize in advance, but do you ever, do you remember that?
Do you remember Alexis? Sales stuff?
Yeah, with Stephen Lewis. Yeah, with Bobby Chariot the
failed. Not that Griff's a failed comic,
I hasten to add, but Bobby Chariot's this kind of yeah,
third, third, third ranked comedian.
And Stephen Lewis, AKA Blakey from On The Buses is his script.
It's very much, very much the way I feel, yeah.
However, Stephen Lewis wrote that film, didn't he?
With Barbara Windsor Sparrows. Can't Sing.
Sparrows Can't Sing. Isn't that Stephen Lewis?
I think you might be right. So he's a fine writer.
Blakey from On the Buses. So he was in with the What's the
name of that woman in the Littlewood?
Joan Littlewood. Yeah, Yeah, all those people.
Harry H Corbett in it is in it as well, doesn't he?
So and. And and George and Mildred.
Every. Yeah.
Yes, they were all in that, Yeah.
Uther and Brian, I mean. Yeah.
So what are we talking about today?
I think we're talking about other left wing leaning comedy
collectives, aren't we? Speaking of Joan Littlewood.
Well, that a a lovely segue. OK, well, let let me begin by
just reading There's a There's a from November 1954.
An advert appeared in the the newspaper.
I'm not sure which newspaper. No.
Possibly the Evening Standard, I'm not sure, but it says the
employment agency license we Terrence Alan Milligan, known as
Spike Milligan, Raymond Percy Galton, known as Ray Galton.
Percy is a surprise there, isn't it?
Yeah, yes. I wasn't expecting the Percy
Eric Sykes and Alan Francis Simpson intend to apply to the
London County Council for a license to carry on an
employment agency for all persons in the entertainment
industry, including cinema artists at 1:30 Uxbridge Road,
London, W 12 such agency to be known as Associated London
Scripts. When do you say that appeared?
When? When did that appeared?
Like, apparently, according to my notes, November 1954.
That's interesting because. Well, anyway, yes, because I
thought they didn't actually come up with the name until
Beryl joined them. Although we are already getting
ahead of ourselves. But yeah, let's just park that
for a moment. So yes, there they are, November
1954. Yeah.
So Associated London Scripts and yeah, so yes 4 extraordinary
writers all come together to form what Spike said was going
to be a writers cooperative. Didn't he A writers commune do
you think he was a writers commune?
A writers cooperative? It was How would you define a
writers cooperative do you think, Tyler, if you had to put
it into words, what would you say?
What would you how would you define a Co-op?
Everyone's on an equal footing. Everyone's paying in the same or
taking out the same as that well and sharing everything.
I'll tell you. I'll tell you how I define a
cooperative. I promise you, I haven't looked
this up or anything, but I would probably define a cooperative as
a business or other organization which is owned and run jointly
by its members who share the profits or benefits and who then
give out Co-op dividend stamps. So it's pretty much the same as
you said actually. But yeah, it starts off as spike
says this but that is not the way it turns out.
But let let's talk through it. Yeah, they start at 13 O
Uxbridge Road, which is a greengrocers in Shepherd's Bush.
Is this why Steptoe and Son are set in Shepherd's Bush?
Very possibly. Galton and Simpson were writing
it there. Were there some toilets on
Shepherd's Bush Green where Buffy Bramble got caught?
Isn't that Isn't that a true story?
He got nabbed by the roses Because he did.
Yeah, he was up to no good. Yeah, very possibly.
Just put in the names of the places where you live and it's
always funny, isn't it? But well.
Let me just let me just say, because in case there's anyone
listening, you are unaware and I'm sure that nobody listens to
this podcast is unaware of Associated London Scripts.
But like you say, it was a well, let's call it a writer's
collective. Yeah, set.
Set up by by Spike and Eric with with Ray Galton and Alan Simpson
and Frankie Howard was there. Frankie Howard as well Frankie
Howard and and his his manager Scruffy Dale Stanley Dale.
Scruffy Dale, who Spike did not like at all.
No. What did he say about Scruffy
Dale? He he apparently lost a testicle
during the war while in the RAF and and Spike?
Spike observed that he hoped he'd dropped it over.
Trusted well. How many people did because that
that happened to Frank Muir as well, didn't it?
Genuinely. Yeah, I didn't know that.
Frank Muir lost a testicle in the So there's a very funny
story in his in his autobiography, which I recommend
highly to anyone. You must have read it.
Tyler, tell me you've read it. Yes, it's it's a really great
book. It's lovely.
But yeah, I think it was from drinking unpasteurized milk or
something. Is that what happens to you if
you drink unpasteurized milk? Anyway, so he'd lost this
testicle in the war. Standing too close to a a
Spitfire propeller. Well, yeah, drinking is.
Maybe that's when he was drinking the milk.
But then a few years later he's at a party or something And he
was making some woman laugh, you know, and she was laughing, you
know, uproariously at Frank being funny.
And in the end, she's always, stop it, Frank, you're
diabolical. And he said, no, actually,
Madam, I am mono, bolical. Brilliant, isn't it?
Maybe had that one saved up waiting for the day.
But he's very good. Frankly, I I read him very, very
highly. Just one of the great British
comedy writers with Dennis Norden.
Before you any of this goons nonsense and everything, it was
Muir and Norton that Galton and Simpson really looked up to and
and I think Spike should have probably did as well.
But you know and obviously they wrote what's it?
Well as well as as well as Take it from here they the division
from which of course we get the classic sellers sketch Balaam
Gateway to the South which is about all that survives of of of
that series. Yeah.
Anyway back to the subject. So we're talking about
associated London script. So yeah, they they start off as
you know, Spike saying it's going to be a writers
cooperative and whatever writers commune, but it becomes a
management agency. And I suppose the point is that
back at this time, so we're talking about the early mid 50s,
you know, this whole kind of ecosystem that we have now,
which I have never managed to break into properly with agents
and whatever writers getting contracts and things that didn't
really exist. Well, certainly not for comedy
writers. So, yeah, So Spike and Eric come
up with this thing. But the predecessor, Speaking
of, you know, Frank and Dennis, Frank Muir and Dennis Orden was
the thing called Ted Kavner associates, right.
And Ted Kavner was, of course, the writer of ITMA.
Yeah. And also he's a very decent man.
Where was he from? Tyler, Do you know?
I'm guessing he was from my part of the world.
He was. He was from New Zealand and he'd
come in. I think he might have been a
doctor or something. There's no there's no guarantee
of quality. But anyway, yeah, but no Frank.
Frank Muir started up. He Ted Kavala founded this
founded this Kavala Associates in 1945 and Frank Muir sent in
material to him. And so Ted Kavala got him to
write some material for a he's frank Muir said for a
clarinetist who wanted to become a comedian.
But then the clarinetist changed his mind and but Ted paid Frank
Muir the 20 lbs. Anyway 20 lbs.
In those days, he's devout Catholic as well Ted Catholic.
I had a football club with that sort of money, couldn't he?
So it was Ted, Ted Kavner from it who paired up Frank Meal with
Dennis Norden. So he actually put them together
as writers because they, I don't think they really knew each
other before that. And the other thing I should say
about all this, listeners, is that I did a program about
Associated London scripts 20 years ago on Radio 4.
And it was very interesting to do because I got to meet all
these amazing people like Galton and Simpson and John Entrebus,
So we spoke to. So that was all absolutely
brilliant. But I I actually had an agent
myself at the time and after I'd done this program, I said to
him, you know, we should do a book on this.
We could do a book on Associated London scripts and he did
precisely nothing. And then just a few months
later, Graham McCann, who writes lots of wonderful books about
comedy, and he's very, very good.
But he nipped in there and he did the book about associated
London scripts. So that was quite frustrating.
But I'm sure he did a much better job than I would have
done. But anyway not.
At all. Not at all the the book The book
is is Spike and code which I spike and code in my hand.
Yes, that's right. So we recommend it.
We recommend it, but if only I'd got to do mine.
But anyway, I suppose Associated London Scripts.
Really it starts with Sykes. I keep trying to make this
playing, but Frank would never have it.
He discovered me. I was a a jobbing repertory
actor, of which there were thousands.
He was the biggest thing in the country, and he think maybe of
all of them, you know, he's the one whose star has maybe waned
slightly and people know slightly less about him.
But in the late 40s, early 50s, I mean, he was just the biggest,
best comedy writer in Britain. And then he became a massive
figure on TV in the 60s and 70s. But I looked him up on
Wikipedia. Wikipedia says Sykes first came
to prominence through his many radio credits as a writer and
actor in the 1950s, most notably through his collaboration on the
Goon Show Scripts. Did you write this, Tyler?
Did you put this on Wikipedia? No.
No, but I I dispute that he's most famous for.
Yeah, this is absolute. This is absolute nonsense.
Yeah, he did do some goon chow scripts, but he was a huge
figure before that. So when they start you.
Know I sorry, sorry to interrupt there because I I read something
in preparation for this last week camera report.
It was, I think it was like a newspaper report from around the
time, from around the mid 50s, where it it essentially said
that Sykes was better knowing the Milligan.
Around that time, yeah, I think that's that's probably right.
Arguably the best established and best regarded of the four
who started Associated London scripts.
I mean Spike was sort of pretty well established, wasn't it?
Because so Associated London scripts, if it starts really
they they all start about September 1954.
That's when the four of them, Sykes, Milligan, Galton and
Simpson, they all get together and you know we're now a thing
and then they place your advert you said in November 54, so.
So when they. Started to put it in context,
September 54 was was just about the beginning of the fifth
series of the Goon Show, which is is what we what we could,
what we now know to be sort of the beginning of The Goon Show
as we know it. And that's what I think is
interesting that it's exactly at that time, you know that because
also it's the time when Milligan has just fallen out with Larry
in the previous series and Larry's just gone off and isn't
really involved now. So I think you know.
And now he's moved. It's like Spike has left Larry
for another woman. He's moved in with Eric Sykes in
the greengrocers because Eric Sykes had these offices above
this greengrocer, right? But there's a nice little story
in Graham McCann's book about Sykes, just to show how
important he was. And he says the BBC pulled some
strings with the GPO to make sure that Sykes was one of the
first civilians in London after the war to get a private
telephone. That is how important he was
because, you know, the BBC needed to get hold of him in a
hurry. And so Sykes is is some years
younger than Milligan, isn't he? He's five years younger, born in
Oldham. His mum dies while giving birth
to him, although Wikipedia says she dies 3 weeks later.
So his long birth then in the war at.
Least it was there and not three weeks before 3 weeks.
Before Oh dear. And he was in the sorry sorry
listeners. He was in the review during the
war called 3 Bags. Full bags of what was not
specified. So also in that show with Dennis
Norton and Bill Fraser. So you know, this is interesting
that they're all together in a thing during the war.
Bill Fraser, do do people know who Bill Fraser is now?
He's somewhere, so. Somewhere.
Bootsy and Snudge. Bootsy and Snudge, he was.
So he was in the Army game because originally Bootsy and
Snudge were two characters in the Army game, weren't they?
And I guess Bill Fraser was the officer guy.
And then the Army game, created and written by Sid Collin, of
course from Cavanners, the crate Sid Collin.
And also written by Larry Stevens, Maurice Wiltshire.
Yeah, that's right. And and a lot of these
associated London, London scripts people that we will come
on to John Entrebus and and so on.
So yeah, very important. And the other thing I was
thinking about this because the Army game that starts in in 1958
and then a year later you get the Navy Lark, it's just never
occurred to me before, you know, the Navy Lark is a rip off of
the Army game, isn't it? It's like the same title, but
the Navy Lark still lives forever because it's on Radio 4
extra every week. Whereas the Army game is ancient
history because it was on ITV and it's never been or no one's
seen it since, you know, whatever, 1961 or something.
Is that was there a? Was there a RAF version of like
a RAF? Welling Do you know what the was
wasn't there was there was get some in that was some while
later in the 1970s with with Robert Lindsay.
Robert Lindsay into Tony Selby. Yes, that is right and I
remember watching this at the time.
It had quite a rude joke in it, which was along the lines of, I
have not seen this in when was get some in on about 50 years
ago or something, getting on 50 years ago.
So there's something about, you know, Robert Lindsay's character
tells the Tony Selby character is that he's going to see a girl
tonight and say Oh yeah, what do you want to do that for?
And Tony Selby is has got like a Biro in his hand and Robert
Lindsay takes the pen and points it upwards as his answer.
That was the most disgusting thing I'd ever seen on
television. Right, he was.
He was going to go around to do some scribbling.
That's right. Yes.
Yes, That's obviously what he was.
Yeah. So, yes, Dennis Ordon, Bill
Fraser and Eric Sykes. And yes, so Bill Fraser was the
concert party officer. So then Bill Fraser went on to
marry somebody from another famous military sitcom.
Do you know who it was? Pamela Kendell Pamela Comes is
Fox misses Fox from Dad's Army. So Bill Fraser was married to
her. But the interesting thing is
that he didn't get married until 1981, so he was 73 and she was
61. What they've been doing the
previous? You know, were they living over
the brush or? Whatever they called, I don't
know, I do do not know, but I just thought that was
interesting detail. But I think it was the possibly
the first marriage in each case as well.
May as well try it now. Anyway, a very a very handsome
couple. Yeah, definitely, definitely.
Anyway, so yeah, so the story you see, all Eric Sykes is
stories. I don't believe any of them.
They just don't ring quite true. But Eric Sykes's story is that
after the war, he Sykes was trying to make it in showbiz or
something, and he's living in terrible conditions in London.
And Bill Fraser, who'd been more sort of maybe officer class in
the war and been in this concert party thing with him, came along
and found him and took great pity on him, you know, slight,
starving in his Garret in the winter of 1947, the winter of
the, you know, the terrible snows and everything.
And Sykes says that Fraser employed him as a writer for the
next few weeks and paid him 5 lbs.
A week. And he never had to write a
thing. Sykes never had to write
anything for him. He was just being nice and
helping him out. Yeah, I don't believe it.
Probably. Probably.
Maybe he was. Maybe he was.
Maybe what was Bill Fraser doing there to make money at this
time? But no, the next thing is that
Sykes becomes Frankie Howard's writer.
This is why Sykes was the biggest writer at the time,
because Frankie Howard was this huge, hugely successful
comedian. But in keeping with this theme
of, you know, there was no kind of proper ecosystem for all
these writers and everything. He couldn't find a decent writer
and he was Frankie Howard at the time.
So in 1947 he was the resident compare on Variety Bandbox and
one week it would be him. And who was it The other week?
Tyler, a name familiar to Goon Pod fans.
The other week it was Derek Roy. Why do we know?
Why do we know Derek Roy? Because Spike Spoke spoke so
highly of him. Spike once described Derek Roy
as about as funny as a baby with cancer.
That's right. That's one of those spike lines
that I do not like so much. No.
No, it's sort of off, isn't it? Spike.
Spike wrote for him in the early days.
That's right. Yes.
And so it's funny, isn't it? So Eric starts off as Frankie
Howard's writer and Spike starts off as Derek Roy's writer.
But Derek Roy, I mean, so obviously, you know, Frankie
sort of carried on for years, didn't he?
Although it did also always seem like his career was dying off.
Because that's he. Had he?
Had he had renaissances? Such a word, Renaissances.
Because I don't know. That is the thing, you know,
that Galton and Simpson told me when I went to speak to them for
my Associated London Scripts program.
But when Hancock gave them the old heave ho in 1961, he got rid
of Galton Simpson as writers. And so they went to the BBC and
whoever it was there, Tom Sloan or whoever the guy was that they
went to, I said OK, what do you want to do now if you're not
right of Hancock anymore? And they said we want to do
something for Frankie Howard. This is 1961 and the BBC
official told them, no, he's finished.
Frankie Howard. No, he's had it.
Forget him. And of course, no, he just kept
coming back. But Derek Roy, I suppose it's
like, you know, this could have happened to Frankie and Derek
Roy. Derek Roy is a footnote in,
yeah, British comedy. Not even that.
Don't note of a footnote maybe. Derek Roy was not invited to
join ALS. Frankie Howard can't find a
writer, but he remembers. Back in the war I saw this
review with it must have been with Bill Fraser and Dennis
Norden and Eric. Eric Sykes.
And Eric Sykes used to go on stage under the name Rick Allen
in those days. So Frankie thought, oh, that
Rick Allen guy. And he was very good.
So he seeks Sykes out and he finds him and he employs him as
his writer and his another detail in Eric Sykes's.
I think this is all from Eric Sykes autobiography.
I do not believe any of it. Maybe it's true, maybe it's just
me being cynical. But Sykes says the ACT that
Frankie Howard had seen him doing during the war, he hadn't
written this at all. He just nicked it off, you know,
routines off, you know, American forces network or something.
Some American comedians, he just cobbled this routine together.
But Frankie employs him as a writer and it's, it turns out,
quite quite fortunate because, you know, Eric Sykes then turns
out to be he hadn't written this actor in the war.
But then he turns out to be this brilliant comedy writer.
And of course, the first thing he does for him is this routine
about the elephants. I went along to depot and I saw
the form and I said, look, I said I've got these, I was, I
was signed for these goods. They're saying he's a good.
He said they're labeled them. Ready.
Get them out of here quick. So I started with them and said
I went along. They were labeled them ready.
All right. Two elephants.
I was not.
I said yeah, I said I shall never get these to crew.
I said I shall never get these to crew, he said.
I don't care where you get them to, but get them out of here.
He said the place has been enough for enough for the place
has been. So I got a bit of string and I
try it down the next to see and I let him out into the street or
I didn't know. I didn't feel a mini.
I tried to look as I wasn't with them anyway, but the no.
But the way people scared, the way people stared.
You think they've never seen two elephants going down the
underground before. So Sykes is writing variety
bandbox. Frankie Coward moves on from
there, but Sykes is still his writer.
But then Sykes starts doing an even, you know, the most popular
show on radio from 1950. And what was that called?
Educating Archie. He was educating Archie.
And who did he write it with? Sid Collin, Our friend Sid
Collin. He was a Django Reinhardt style
guitar player. Did you know that Sid Colin?
He'd been in Sid Millward and the Nitwits Before the War of.
Course he was of. Course he was, yeah.
Anyway, so yeah, so Sykes starts doing that.
So he'd got the link with Peter Brough and, you know, Educating
Archie. That was from variety band box.
Yeah, the people they had on Educating Archie is the start of
with Max Bygraves and Julie Andrews, Benny Hill, Harry
Secum, Dick Emery, James Robertson, Justice, they all
first crop up on educating artists is incredible.
Is Beryl Reed that drove Eric Sykes off educating Archie
because she wanted more jokes. So that was the entry Eric, he
gave up writing it, but also Educating Archie had its own
regular harmonica player. Did you know that?
I didn't know that. Do you not know who it was it?
Wasn't Max. He wasn't Max.
He was Ronald Chesney and Ronald Wolfson.
Yeah. So Ronald Wolf was also in the
cast. So educator Archie, you know,
thanks to that, we got on the buses.
And Speaking of Blakey. Thanks for that.
Background to Blakey and of course Meet the Wife as featured
in Good Morning, Good Morning. Good morning.
Anyway, I now turn to Andre
Vincent's Mislaid Comedy Heroes website for this next little bit
of the story. Because after the first series
of edgy, This is why this is important to our story.
After the end of the first series of educating Archie,
Sykes began to complain of ear pain and general hearing
problems. So that's the very end of 1950.
And Peter Brough, who's the Ventriloquist?
The The Ventriloquist Whose Lips Move, told Sykes to Actually, I
suppose Sykes would still be able to lip read, wouldn't he,
with Peter Brough, even when he went deaf.
But Peter Brough told him to go and see a doctor.
But Sykes ignored this advice because he had a pressing
theatre commitment in Swansea that night.
This is all from Andre Vincent's excellent website.
While packing for the trip, he Sykes was interrupted by a knock
at the door and Bruff chauffeur had arrived to take Sykes
straight round to Harley Street to be checked up.
And in fact, he had an infected mastoid.
So he says if it hadn't been for Peter Brough's action, he would
have been dead within three days.
What? Yeah, how about that?
Hang on, hang on, sorry. So in effect it's.
What did you say, mastoid? Mastoid.
Yeah. Is that Is that in the ear?
Then it's. Something to do with the ear and
This is why he went deaf. How can an How can an ear
infection kill you? I don't know if he got into the
brain or something, I suppose. I don't know anyway.
Yeah. So Peter for Pete, if it wasn't
for Peter Brough, we wouldn't have Associated London Scripts.
Well, that's right, Eric Sykes. You know, he would have been and
gone. And and British comedy, The
future British comedy. Because obviously the the
echoes, the the tremors, if you like, of Associated London
scripts we can still feel today. Yeah, you say that Bruff, Peter
Bruff helped make British comedy what it is and what it became.
Absolutely do. Do not say a bad word against
that, man. Yeah.
It's just nothing. Little detail, which I this must
be off Andre Vincent's website as well, it says following them,
Sorry. Following the manufacturer of a
new head for Archie, the show Educating Archie took a
sabbatical between February and May 1953 to give Rough some time
to adjust to the dummy's working tongue.
Honestly. Honestly.
Right. What are you?
What are you up to?
At the moment, Bruff, I'm just trying to adapt to Archie's new
tongue. Anyway, the reason all this is
important Eric Eric Sykes in his ear surgery is because it is
just after that Eric starts at 13 O Uxbridge Road the above the
greengrocers. So it it's just after his first
year operation and it's in February 1951 that Sykes and
Frankie Howard buy the lease on these offices right?
And they do this at the behest of their agent Scruffy Dale,
this man, Stanley Dale. So they all set up a company or
in fact they set up several companies.
They set up Frankie Howard Limited, Frankie Howard Scripps
Limited and Eric Sykes Limited. So he seems quite on the ball
business wise. Scruffy Dale.
Yes, So Milligan comes into this Grey Grocers thing with all the
offices, all the empty offices, and only Sykes is there.
So, so, Milligan suggests, oh, we'll have a writers commune.
This is where we we get to the point where they they agree that
they're going to set, set up this, yeah, this, like you say
this, this commune, this collective.
And originally they wanted to call it, I believe, Associated
British Scripts. That's right.
But they weren't allowed, so they settled on London and and
associated calling it Associated London scripts meant it would
be. It would turn up early on in the
phone book as well. It was in Spike's mind that it
should have been a workers, a workers cooperative.
I don't think it was anybody else's mind.
I just think the rest of the guys were just saying, well,
we'll all bang in 10% and just sort of make the office work.
There's nothing in the in the interview I did with John
Entrevest, where he it's the first thing I asked him why did
why did they they they start this thing and he says those
because they're all very lonely. There probably is something in
that. Yeah, it's.
Well, I know that things weren't great in the Milligan marriage.
No. And and he, I think he the
implication was that he would look for excuses to be out of
the house. So he didn't like writing at
home. Yeah, around this time when?
Well, it's a little bit earlier, isn't it, when he tries to kill
Peter Sellers with the potato knife.
Well, yeah. That's two.
That's Series 3. Series three, yeah.
He was going to pee all Peter Sellers to death.
Missus Sellers would come home and find the horrifying sight of
a long, long strip of Peter Sellers all curled up around the
hallway. Anyway.
Yeah, so, so, so really I mean it all sort of points to you
know with Michael Bentine going and then that incident with
Peter Sellers and then Larry you know and Spike is in the the the
hospital in Muswell Hill isn't he And Larry keeps the show
going, doesn't he and keeps Spike's name in the credit which
credits which is very good. Jimmy Jimmy Grafton as well.
Jimmy Grafton Yeah, that's right.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, which. Which is interesting that, OK, I
know that Jimmy Grafton more or less became an agent, yeah,
didn't he? But he he Yeah, he was never
involved or asked to be involved with ALS.
No, that's true, isn't it? I mean, I do wonder, maybe.
Maybe we've talked about this before when I've been on, but
what was Spike's feelings about Jimmy Grafton?
Obviously Harry stayed with him. There's that story that John
Cleese told about Jimmy Grafton and Harry Secombe.
Do you remember that? That was John Cleese working
with Harry Secombe somewhere and he saw, or I don't know, he's
just interesting with Harry Secombe.
And Jimmy Grafton came and presented him with the script
and Harry didn't think it was terribly funny and Jimmy just
wouldn't do anything with it. I'll just leave that up to you.
You can, you'll sort that out. Weren't you and John Cleese
didn't think this was very impressive.
You know that because Jimmy Grafton, as well as being
Harry's agent, was his writer. So that just sort of kept him in
business for years writing the Harry Secombe show on the on the
telly. Anyway, so yeah, so Spike and
Larry have sort of split up. So Larry stays in the office,
presumably with Kavner's in Chefsbury Ave. because I think
they were both at Kavner's, both Spike and Larry, because Spike
leaves. I've got a note somewhere that
Spike leaves Kavner's around this time in 1954 and he starts
working at the greengrocers where Eric Sykes has an office.
So. Let's talk about, let's talk
about how Ray and Alan, yes, get involved.
Yeah, because let's talk about Ray and Anna.
So as you know, they, they've been in the TB Sanatorium.
They were too young for World War Two.
They were too young for World War One as well by an even
greater margin. So they join Associated London
Scripts on the 1st of September 1954.
So I suppose they're invited in. So it's not just Eric and Spike
sitting there. Suddenly they've got a whole
proper thing and there's you know the importance is
previously I think they've just been sitting at home at Alan
Simpson's mum's house writing their scripts.
So they are just what, 24 and 26 this time I think Ray and Allen
so very young and September 1954.
So that is when Series 5, The Goon Show kicks off and you've
got whistling, spining, Marin, dreaded, better, better pudding,
hurler and. Phantom.
Phantom Head Shaver. That's right.
Yes. So Hancock's Half Hour, which
Galton Simpson famously writes, hadn't even started.
It starts in November, I think that year.
So it's it. Well, it it airs the same night
as The Goon Show episode The Canal.
Right. Which I think from memory was
the last episode of series five that Spike wrote on his own
before Eric. Oh, OK.
Yeah. Joined up.
Right, Yeah. So they they come in, they'd
only just managed to get their hands on the telephone.
Galton and Simpson, you know, it's all very well, very excites
getting his phones with the BBC. So they join up.
Yeah. So they've been in this TV
sanatorium. They started writing scripts
there because they did a sort of little, you know, hospital radio
sort of thing there to amuse the other other patients.
That was the thing with when we did these interviews with Ray
Galton and Alan Simpson, which which was, you know, that was
such a thrill to go and meet Ray Allen.
And they were, they were absolutely, yeah, Ray had the
loveliest house that you've ever seen.
And I think it was over near Hampton Court.
It may have been Hampton Court actually but there's lovely fire
in the great. This is like in the on a
winter's day and lovely and cosy and it is Christmas tree and
everything and fire in the great and it's just beautiful house.
And he was saying he'd been in this TB sanatorium.
So when when did we speak to him?
So it was about, yeah, 2420 years ago he'd been in this TB
sanatorium. So what would that be 56 years
earlier And great holes in his lungs they say, you know he he
was given like 8 weeks or something to live.
You know really something like that.
You know you are going to die if we don't sort the there was no
kind of, you know the what's hadn't come in yet the
antibiotics or something to clear this up.
Penicillin. Penicillin.
Yeah. Whatever.
So. So he's telling this us this,
you know, he's just been given weeks or you know a few months
to live or something whilst rolling himself a a cigarette in
2004. I mean you say, oh this is the
best. I anyway, he had a great long
life and more power to him. So yeah, so they've been writing
on all these sort of things. Frankie Howard, they've written
for Derek Roy I think. Yeah, because they did.
Happy go lucky, didn't they? Isn't that right?
So which was the one that Spike wrote for with Derek Roy?
Hip, hip. Hip Who?
Roy My. Goodness, yeah.
So I think the titles show you. Yeah, yeah.
So they write for this thing. Happy, go, Lucky.
I think some people was it like Monkhouse and Goodwin, who was
writing it before them. And yeah, and it was all a bit
of a disaster this series, there's lots of rows going on,
but they got some material into one episode of this.
And the producer was Roy Spear. And then he must have had
enough. So he went.
So Dennis Mayne Wilson came in towards the end of the series.
Happy go, Lucky with Derek Roy. And so Dennis Mayne Wilson
invited Ray. Dennis Mayne Wilson is
responsible for a lot, isn't he? Climbing?
So he asked Ray and Alan to come in and write the last three
shows in this, you know, disaster of a series.
So they bought a typewriter with their first paycheck.
Also in that also in that show I think was Tony Hancock, Bill
Graham Stark and Peter Butterworth.
So they wrote a sketch for Tony Hancock called The Eager
Beavers. I think this was all in the same
series and Hancock was very impressed with, you know, the
sketch they'd written for him. And so, so that's how that all
that started. So yeah, OK, so we've got the
the main 4-5, if you want to conclude Frankie, I suppose.
Frankie obviously wasn't a writer, but no.
But then you've got the have you got what?
What would you call it? The 2nd wave that come in like
Johnny Spate. The other thing just before we
go on to that, I was just going to say the basis on which they
do this because we talk about it being a writers cooperative.
But in fact what they do is they all put in their ten percent,
10% of their earnings into the business and some, some sources
say they put in 90% and then took 10% as their wages.
How would that work? So it's not a right, it's not a
cooperative because they don't put in all their money and then
they just share it all between, you know, between them because
the issue it there with this 10% is what comes up with sellers
when they try and get sellers to join.
So he nearly joins, but he won't come in because his agent says
his 10% will be more than everyone else's 10%.
I see. Yeah.
So Sellers said he would join Associated London Scripts if
everyone else put in 5000 lbs. So you know, not just 10% you've
got to pay. Maybe that is Sellers 10%, I
don't know. Over time, could it be he's on
50,000 a year or something? He wouldn't have been, surely.
Not in 19, in the mid 50s, no. But that's what he I don't know.
You see, where did I get this from?
I don't know if this is from Graham Mcken's book as well.
But anyway, so they said he'd join if everyone else put in
5000 lbs. But Galton Simpson obviously
can't afford to do that. So this, I mean this.
This is true. Whatever the figures, exactly
where I you know, maybe it'll turn out that it wasn't quite
there, but Galton Simpson weren't earning as much as any
of the others. Milligan sticks up for Galton
and Simpson and says, you know they can't.
You know these lands can't afford to pay the same as
sellers and it's unfair to maybe he was talking about himself.
I wanted it's unfair to make me pay £5000.
That would make sense with, you know, his troubles with the
first missus Milligan that her spending habits, wouldn't it?
We. Used to have writers conferences
when we moved to High Street, Ken.
And this was to where we would all get together in a democratic
fashion because the the directors, they paid their 10%
as well as well as the clients, but they didn't pay any rent for
their offices. And we did.
And Johnny's bait brought this up.
And Spike Milligan just left, had slammed the door and we
never saw him at a writers conference again And and he said
that, well, that's the end of a cooperative as far as I'm
concerned. You'd have nothing more to do
with it. So, yes, they they, they they
bring in these other writers. So the next two through the door
are John Entropist. Well, Johnny Spate first, and I
think Johnny Spate had been he'd been doing some work for Frankie
Howard or something, haven't he? So Frankie Howard was always on
the look for more material. Yeah, Johnny Spate's an
interesting guy. I don't know.
I've heard him interviewed a few times and obviously I know his
work, but he's, he's an interesting one.
And John, John Entrebus in the because he used because
listeners. Mike sent me the unedited
recording that he made when he interviewed John Entrebus all
those years ago which is very interesting.
And at one point he meant he described John Antropus
describes Johnny Spate as a Stalinist.
Yeah, probably was. And I and Stalin.
Had just died, Eddie. It was 1954.
Was that 53, right? So again, the death of Stalin.
It all fits in. But obviously, I know, I know
that Elf garner is not based on Spate's own views.
Of course, No, quite the opposite, but it's I've just got
this image in my head of of Johnny Spate because because
again, John Entrance mentions that he he often would go to the
pub with Eric Sykes. Eric Sykes was no Stalinist.
No, no. Well, that's what he says, that
that Eric was the the token Tory in the associated London script.
And what? Spike was just an anarchist or
something. Ray and Allen would be more
lefty, and Johnny Spate was somewhere far to the left of
them. And why does he?
Because he was in, he was. Well, I'll say he was
interviewed. He, he met Ray and Allen to
discuss coming on board or joining ALS.
What? What was the reason he thought
they were gay? Oh, no, that's, yeah.
I think because, you know, they were, they were finely dressed.
Ray was a bit of a dandy. Ray particularly was a bit of a
dandy. And I don't know, Johnny Spate
sort of just he was very suspicious of everybody working
in show business because he thought they were all gay.
He wasn't. He wasn't like you say, though
he was impressed when Ray told him how much his suit cost.
Right, yes, and. And he looked forward.
Spate looked forward to the day when he could buy one equally as
nice and reassuringly expensive. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, so, yeah, so they came along.
But I suppose that was after Beryl Virtue, who I think she
was an old friend of Alan's. Alan Simpson had been at primary
school, I think with Beryl and her future husband.
Clem and I might have played football with Clem as well or
something. And so they'd had a typist,
hadn't they, when they started. So September 5th, before they
get going and they have some other.
And she turned out not to be very good.
So, so Beryl had been typing up scripts for Ray and Ellen
anyway, because you know, she'd just done a course at
secretarial college or something.
She'd also had TB and just sort of come out as and then so
they're looking for someone else.
So I think Alan persuades her to come in for an interview.
So she goes in and of course, you know Spike does a wacky
interview with her and asks lots of questions about tea.
So she talks about in that in the program, you know what sort
of tea do you like and how do you make your tea and
everything. And so and then just so I think
she'd be perfect and she didn't want the job at all because it
was just too far out of her way, you know, because she was
somewhere in South London somewhere and this was over in
in Shepherd's Bush. So it involved, you know,
getting a trolley bus. And it was all just far too.
She was very good, Beryl, she was absolutely great.
She came on to the interior and her little suit and everything
and she was just really good. And of course she goes on to
have as greater career, you could say, is any of them.
It's just absolutely amazing. And she starts off as the typist
and they have to persuade her to come in because she doesn't want
the job. She tries to price herself out
of it. She tells them, oh, I'll do it
if you pay me, you know, whatever, it's £10 a week, you
know, some extraordinary figure. And so they're all horrified by
that. So she's almost got out of it.
But then somebody says, oh, well, that's only £2.50 each,
isn't it? Or you know, £2.10 shillings in
those days and so she gets the so she gets the job and I
really, you know, it becomes her story.
One of the things, the reason that they'd formed this company
was to encourage other people and to help other people.
So I think the BBC thought this was a bit of a godsend because
when people wanted to write, they wrote to the BBC.
And so they used to say, you know, there's there's some
writers down in Shepherd's Bush, why don't you go down there?
So different writers began to arrive who were sort of new on
the scene. When I look back, I think how
extraordinary my life has become because I said, oh, all right
then. She is just the typist.
But then they start asking her for a while, you know, oh, could
you, you know, speak to the because it's very difficult for
This is why you have an agent. This is why I've never got
anywhere. If you have an agent, they can
just, you know, just get you a bit more money.
It's just easier for somebody else to to ask for a bit more
money for you. And so she has to speak to the
BBC on Galton, The Simpsons behalf and says, well, there's
two of them and you know, they, they work very hard And, you
know, it's not fair that, you know, they're just having to
split this same thing. So, you know, there would have
been like half each of what maybe Spike was getting.
So she gets them a bit more and and then she starts doing this
for all the writers, getting them a little bit more and the
contracts and eventually, you know, somebody says how long
have you been an agent for? And she didn't realise she was
an agent. She becomes the manager of this
thing and she becomes an agent and of course the the really
famous one. Of course, you know, down the
line, one of the writers who comes through the door is a guy
called Terry Nation. And Terry Nation invents the
Daleks in Doctor Who. He didn't invent Doctor Who, but
he did invent the Daleks. Yeah.
And and yeah, and Beryl, she came up with the idea of
merchandising. Yeah.
Well, yes. The product So like say with the
Daleks, things like Tele goons, glove puppets.
There was a Hancock. Board game.
There was a Hancock board game and I mentioned that to her and
she'd completely forgotten that she'd and that that might have
been the first thing that they did like that a sort of spin off
product. So there must have been
something in the contract about, you know, associated products or
whatever and well, you're never going to have that.
So he just crosses it out and nobody noticed, you know, But
then that just turns out to be hugely lucrative, especially if
something like Terry Nation. But then the other thing that
she did do was she may have crossed out in the Contra was
about the overseas rights or whatever it was, which meant
that they could then sell the format.
And of course that turned out to be huge because then, you know,
she was able to sort of pioneer this idea that, OK, you've got
till death, this duppart that Johnny Spate comes up with and
becomes a huge hit in in the 60s.
But then they could sell the format of that to America.
So they kept hold of the format. It wasn't handed on to the BBC.
Associated London Scripts kept the format and then you could
sell it to and have it turned into All in the Family with
Archie Bunker. Archie Bunker, but we're we're
killing ahead of ourselves because we haven't really meant.
We mentioned Johnny Spate. We mentioned John and Travis and
passing I suppose, but John, John was ex Sandhurst.
Yes. And by his own admission, he was
quite posh. And he was.
He was the youngest as well. That's right.
And then he, he came in and he learned from Johnny speak to
speak like a bit of a company, which he's still doing to this
day. I mean the story to, again,
it's, it's worth digging out from that interview that he was,
he renting a room from Bill Kerr's mother-in-law.
mother-in-law. Oh, yeah.
So Bill Kerr was married to a maybe married to an English
woman and yeah, his mother-in-law.
So, yeah, So, yeah, so he got in touch then and they, they got
him to write a kind of, you know, trial Hancock script,
which obviously, I mean wonder if he's still got that, that'd
be interesting, wouldn't it? And that got him in.
So yeah, so he's 21. So he's very, you know, he's 21
and now? He didn't.
He do this, He said.
He did the same thing later with the Army game he wrote.
He asked Peter Eaton, the producer, if he could write for
the Army game and Peter Eaton knocked him back.
Really. And then he just, he wrote he
just sent one. He just wrote a script and just
sent it in anyway to Peter Eaton.
And he, Peter Eaton, got got in contact straight away and said
yeah, love it. Do you want to do some more?
Yeah. And obviously they had this
relationship with Spike to be in that sort of relationship
listeners, I mean a working relationship, not there's
anything wrong with that sort of thing.
I do wonder, you know, like obviously the bed sitting room
is like the biggest thing he ever did.
But like the spike sort of take that over quite a bit.
And the original idea that, you know, Entrust describes, you
know, is this guy, what was it the the guy who's that he's
turning into a a bed sitting room and and what was it his
analyst or his psychiatrist or something?
He's living in the bed sitting room.
So if he cures him, then he'll be homeless.
You know, it's something like that.
That's the original idea. But then Spike adds, you know,
all the spikeness to it. And I suppose it's maybe it's
slightly, you know, the bed sitting room overshadows
everything else because that was such a success in the early 60s.
And Milligan is involved in this.
So if he's doing something, then not with Milligan.
People, you know, wear Spike sort of thing.
You get that. But also probably his issues
that cropped up afterwards and he came and you know, had a bit
of trouble with the bottle I believe.
Well, he's very open about that. And he talks about how he a bit
like Dick Van Dyke in the late 60s, he lost the entire years,
you know, the entire years that he doesn't remember.
And John Entrebus implies that that was similar with him in
terms of he he doesn't remember what happened after the sort of
Stigwood period kicked in. In this office we had, it was
all laughter and phones and typewriters and things banging
away. Some people wrote by hand.
It was all quite odd. And I had a a blackboard.
There was a big blackboard. It was rather like a Bomber
Command control room and on and chalked on this on this board
were were the names of the writers with their current
employment and they all would sort of rub out this or put this
one in. I thought the board was was
factious what's she going to say like Johnny Spate is now
approaching Lime Grove Studios. Come in Johnny Spate and Gordon
and Simpson at L Street. You know on Hancock latest
Hancock film. You know, I mean it's just
useless information and and sending Pam to rub things out
and chalk new things up. They move around, don't they?
They start off in that greengrocers at Oxbridge Rd.
then they move from there in 1957.
So I suppose in the immediate wake of you know starting out
19541955 Johnny Spate of all pair of virtue starts on 1st of
January 1955 I think. And then Johnny Spate and John
Entropus come in I think during the course of that year.
And then you get the other people.
Eventually they're so big that they move to another place in
Kensington High Street in 1957 larger premises.
Then they sell the Kensington offices and they buy perhaps the
most famous address to to to us, which is Ohm Court, 9 Ohm Court
in Bayswater Rd. which is absolutely lovely.
So there was a. Which is which is which is now
the Kosovo embassy? Truly is it?
As of last year. Oh my.
Good. So where have Kosovo got the
money from? Is this all sort of dodgy money
because it was up for sale the year before, 6/6 and a half
million? Lord, yeah.
And yeah, there's a piece in the Daily Mail about it.
And I was thinking, you know, this, this can't be right
because they're saying, you know, The Goon Show was
rehearsed here. Well, not if they went in 1960,
but then I thought, well yeah, but then I thought what they
mean is the less scooch of all. So yeah, they would have gone in
there and gone through it probably.
And he says the Daleks were created here and Davros Davros
is 70s. But no, apparently Terry Nation
went back in 1975 to sit in there and unless the Daily Mail
just added the detail to write, you know, whatever it is genesis
of the Daleks. So there you go.
Yeah. Have you got Can we talk a
little bit about Terry Nation? Yes, Terry Nation turns up with
a guy called Dick Barry or, I don't know, maybe they they're
both from Wales. I think they may have turned up
as you know, 2 for the price of one sort of thing together.
But yeah, so Terry Nation is one of the writers.
So yeah, we should actually just mention the other people who
come through the door. Johnny Spate, John Andrews, Deep
Barrier, Terry Nation. John Junkin turns up, he's
written the Goon Show script and he gets the number for ALS and
he comes in and finds Milligan there on a Saturday morning.
And so he gets in and shows him this Goon Show script.
Who else? You've got Dave Freeman, but
Ashton, Dick, Rosborough, Maurice Wiltshire, Lou Schwartz,
Eric Merriman. Barry took eventually Marty
Feldman. Marty Feldman.
Yeah, yeah, but yeah, Terry Nation.
So he is one of AL s s writers. It's interesting in, you know,
relation to Galton and Simpson because Galton and Simpson get
the push from Hancock in November 1961.
So this is just after they've done that amazing series where
they've got done the blood donor and the radio ham and all these
kind of, you know, the I think the lift is in that series as
well, isn't it, The Bowmans. So they've just done all that
and then they've tried to write another screenplay for him,
another film, and then he gets fed up with it.
And it's just, you know, it's very, it's very foolish
behavior. Just sacks them as as his writer
by that stage. Obviously Beryl is acting as
Hancock's manager as well, so he sort of must have come in by
that stage. But so, Hancock.
But he could, but he doesn't. He could bare all the elbow as
well. Because he does.
He does, brother. Roger.
He becomes his age. That's right.
Yeah. Yeah.
So, and I think that meeting lasts about, you know, a minute
or something. He just sacks them all, you
know, He just don't want you to write for me anymore.
Well, it always seems, you know, when I spoke to Colton and
Simpson, there was a slight bit of, you know, did he mean, I
don't want you to write for me ever again or I don't want you
to carry on writing these, you know, try out film scripts for
me? But anyway, what it came to was
that they went off and they tried to pitch their series with
Frankie Howard and Tom Sloan or whoever it was at the BBC said
no, you can't do Frankie Howard because he's finished.
So he had this other thing for them, which was Comedy Playhouse
and he didn't know what he was. It's got a title called Comedy
Playhouse and you can do whatever you want.
You can be in it, you can write it, you can do whatever, You can
direct it, produce it, whatever. And so they do, you know, it
becomes, you know, like a series of one off half hours and the
4th one, you know, they're stuck for an idea.
So they start writing this idea and they come up with the thing
of the two Rag and Bone Men. The offer.
The offer, Yeah, Which turns into a series listeners.
It becomes very popular. It's Steptoe and Son and then
Beryl sells it to America. Sanford and Son.
But Terry. Although although Mike you say
that yes, of course it it is the American version.
Yeah, that we that we know is Sanford and Son, but there was
did you know there was an earlier.
I was the. American was a pilot in the 60s
and it was called Steptoe and Son and I have seen it.
Who was in that? I can't remember.
Anyway, anyway, whatever. What anyway is very different.
So they sold them the format and the Americans changed it
greatly. Where were we?
Terry Nation, right. So Gold and Simpson have been
given the push from Hancock. But then Hancock, a year or so
later is touring around, and this is before, you know, Doctor
Who and everything and his writer that he's touring around
the, you know, treading the boards and the guys going around
with him is Terry Nation. So this is odd, isn't it,
Because he's sacked Beryl, he sacked Galton and Simpson, but
now he's using somebody from, you know, down the corridor,
Terry Nation to be, you know, his writer, another ALS writer.
That's. That just seems peculiar to me,
that having done anything as drastic and terrible as he had
done, and ultimately suicidal, literally suicidal, it would
have gotten Simpson that he's then using Terry Nation.
I I didn't offend anybody, did I, when I was all right.
Oh, it was simply. Marvellous.
All the channels were falling about.
Were they? I can't remember that.
I don't know. I can be a bit of a wag when I'm
on the milk stout. Did I sing?
I'll take you home again, Kathleen.
Yes, several times. Yes.
But I didn't offend anybody. No, no, no, not at all.
Look, why don't you again get dressed?
I'll wake up. Sarah.
Yes.
And they would all again have a spot of breakfast together.
Yes, yes, That's a that's a good idea.
I didn't actually punch anybody. Oh no, no.
You want pipeline eyes? Termination is is going around
these theatres with Hancock and one day they are shooting the
breeze and Hancock comes up with this idea of these pepper pot
shaped robots and we start sketching them out and
everything. And so, a year or so after that,
Hancock is watching the telly. Doctor Who comes on, and lo and
behold, who is, you know, who's written this series on Doctor
Who but Terry Nation? And there's the Daleks.
And Hancock is facing, yeah, stolen me, Terry Nation.
Stolen my robots. Imagine if he'd got that Dalek
dollar. He'd have been in Clover for the
rest of his life, wouldn't he? Yeah, well, maybe he just wasn't
bothered. But yeah, the thing about
deterioration And he kept control of the Daleks, which
then meant because Beryl Virtue's daughter is Sue Virtue
and she got married to Steven Moffett.
Who then becomes the showrunner
in the later incarnation of Doctor Who?
So then when he wants to get the Daleks on Doctor Who, he's not
got to negotiate with his, you know, the estate of Terry Nation
or something, because they retain the rights to the Daleks.
So, you know, there's a payout to the heirs of Terry Nation.
Isn't it crazy? You think?
You think you know 19591960 and the offices of ALS and you've
got Beryl Virtue in Terry Nation.
You know, little did they know that.
This will be a dynasty. 4050 years later, yeah.
It's more than 60 odd years later and this is still a thing,
yeah. So John Entropus talks about,
you know, they they, they everyone shared around
assignments depending on their workload.
Even if it was a lucrative gig, you know, it was quite, it's
quite egalitarian in that sense. And there was a lot of wandering
in and out of others offices for inspiration or just a smoke and
a drink. They played golf in Terry
Nation's office and darts and Lou Schwartz's office.
They'd go to the pub. The Moscow Arms.
Yeah, it was nearby a lot. As soon as we had finished
today's work, probably spate and anyone else that was around
would go straight up into Eric's room and he wouldn't know he was
either playing golf or doing something or other.
Open up his cocktail cabinet and get get stuck in and then Eric
will appear and was like pubs are open, let's go down to
Moscow, arms chucking out time there or near enough we'd say.
Where should we go next? That was ABBC Club, then a
Television Centre, which was the best bar in London and apart
from Eric's place, so we'd all power down there.
I don't know how we got any work done really, but there was very
productive time. Called Youth.
Yeah, I know. But at that time, we're doing 40
scripts a year. God knows I.
Think we better go back to it, don't you?
Of course the other thing which is which, which is important for
Goon Body listeners is the guy who runs the the junk shop who
is William is it's actually. So that's where he comes from
because he he had the junk shop next to Associated London
Scripts, that's where that cannot be correct anyway.
Well. John mentioned as well.
John mentions someone tries to tries to join our ALS and keeps
coming in with scripts, but they keep rejecting him and he says
he's dressed as a Boy Scout. Yes, he does.
And I'm wondering, so yeah. Is he?
Is he thinking of Ruxton? Yeah, Heywood.
Yeah, maybe he is. Maybe that is the link?
But he also he he described rather loftily.
John described the overall mindset of the ALS group as
Chekhovian. What did he mean by that, Do you
think I? Don't quite know, but no, it
seemed like they they would all sort of bounce ideas off each
other. It was an open, you know, very
much an open door policy in every in every office.
I thought that is another important reason why they would
have all these extra writers. Because The thing is, if you are
a successful writer, not that I would ever know anything about
that, but then you're getting so much work that you can't do it
all yourself. But, you know, if you've got
somebody up the corridor, oh, I know this, you know, we've got
John Antrobus just up the corridor.
And if you can't get Spike Milligan, John Antrobus will do,
you know, something is good sort of thing.
So that is one reason for having all these extra people in.
You know, you can spread all that work.
You don't, you don't have to turn any work away.
So it was it becomes like, you know, the BBC writers room sort
of thing, doesn't it? This is where you, BBC, don't
know what to do with all these all these people who were
turning up, so they send them there.
So yeah, maybe that is where Ruxton Hayward went.
What? What sparked the ashtray
incident? With Eric Sykes, Spike was a
difficult person to actually sit, you know, it's just the
stress they must be under. So Larry has sort of hit the
bottle and gone and this was the final store for, you know, Eric
came and started trying to fight the goon.
So how many actual goon shows did he sit and actually write
with Spike in the room with it before they?
Well, there's the thing we don't really, I don't think we really
know there's a there's a handful of the nearly 20, maybe the 20
goon shows in Series 5 that are the joint credited to Spike and
Eric. Yeah, maybe a third, maybe half
were probably mostly written by Eric and the others were mostly
written by Spike with somewhere there was maybe a bit more
collaboration I think. So, right.
So they might have left us about six weeks actually sitting in
the same room together trying to do it.
Yeah, maybe. And then we have, we have the
ashtrays. I mean, you know, the thing I
always think with that is what happened to the person who was
walking on the pavement outside with the stray game.
You don't hear about them, do you?
But that could have been lethal, That ashtray coming down, Yeah,
they they they were just arguing over a line, weren't they?
They just couldn't quite get the rhythm of a Isn't that what what
what he said is just, you know, just one word in the line.
Should it be this or should it be that or whatever?
And Spike throws the ashtray at him and he ducks.
The ashtray goes through the window, lands on some
unfortunate soul walking down the Uxbridge road.
Just going to go in and buy his kind of potatoes at the green
grocers. It can't have been a glass S
tray, kind of must have been metal because Sykes goes down
and picks it up and brings it back up, puts it back on the
table because what does he say? You know, don't forget which day
this was or something. There's nobody says to him and
something. Like that.
And so from then on, you know, but of course, you know, they
were very practical. Eric Sykes, because, you know,
they, they remained the best of friends.
Yeah. Yeah.
And then? Because.
Because, yeah, because my spike was very dismissive of Larry's
talents. Yeah, he he, he was kind of
grudgingly complimentary about Eric's contribution to the game
show. It's quite interesting that he,
he was quite comfortable working with John Antribus as well.
I think it's because John Antribus probably was just so
laid back and quite. Younger.
And younger and and obviously. I was also less successful.
Eric was younger, true and much more successful when they
started this. True.
Maybe that is an issue. I don't know if it is, but I'm
just reading into it that it's like, you know, Eric in a way is
the senior partner and then then the spike and then he brings in
Galton and Simpson. So there's some people who in
the hierarchy who's below Spike? Well, that is conjecture.
That is absolutely conjecture. But but yeah, he he doesn't have
that. You know, he's able to sit in
the room and work with people like John Entrebus and he's able
to sit in the room and work with obviously Neil Shan for years.
But yeah, but then, you know, you know, like John was saying
in that interview, in later life, you know, he just becomes,
you know, there's just always an insult coming from Spike and
you, you just have to not take it personally sort of thing.
I always longed to be a playwright.
I I while I was script writing I I still longed to be a a
playwright and although I enjoyed script writing and I was
a natural edit and spike asked me to write goon shows with him
but I only wrote 2 with him. But I mean that was a great
experience and sort of a wonderful things.
I went along to the first read through and Spike said because
Peter Sellers was the only one wearing a suit and Spike said we
all, we haven't got much money, the goon, she says.
But we decided to save up for a suit and and we've given it to
Peter Sellers to wear. For the first three years, Peter
Sellers kept wearing it. You never, they never bought a
second suit. The other person I was going to
just say a bit about if we have time was Scruffy Dale because
his name lives on with one of his clients, Jim Dale.
Jim Dale was given his name by Scruffy Dale.
Oh, I'm trying to think of. I'm trying to think of some
celebrity called Scruffy. Also Scruffy Dale.
He managed the Vipers Gifford group through ALS and they were
recording where else on the phone George Martin record
producing. Scruffy Dale sets up this tour,
the hunt for the country's best skiffle act.
So there's two proper acts on the bill, Jim Dale and the
Vipers. So they go around the country
doing these shows and it's like Britain's Got Talent sort of
thing. Britain's Got Skiffle and all
the local skiffle groups go on and this was a terrible idea
because they've all got exactly the same repertoire.
So you can watch the Vipers doing all these kind of songs
properly because what have you got?
You've got Rock Island Line and don't you rock me Daddy O or
something, you know, not many. So all these though, you know,
that was spotty. Herbert's sort of come up do
those skiffle things as the kind of talent shape, and they'll do
the same songs as the Vipers, then come up and do properly at
the end. So it's a terrible talent shape.
Anyway, so interesting enough, the scruffy Dale Skiffle talent
show comes to Beautiful in March 1958.
So who do you think was in that? No, no, it wasn't.
It was the Raving Texans. The Raving Texans.
You can then get excited again because, oh, it's well, they
eventually become more. We stormed the Hurricanes.
Oh, do you mean Ringo was the drummer?
No, he wasn't. They didn't have Ringo until a
little bit later, I don't think. And they when it was the Dark
Town Skiffle group with the winners in Liverpool.
Actually, I'm wondering if this all is all come from another
excellent guest on your podcast, Andrew Hickey.
But Spike will get net lights for Vidale, Eric Sykes and
Frankie Howard. Thought he was good at
contracts. He then took on Johnny Kidd and
the Pirates, So what he was doing is some sort of dodgy
accounting thing that was going on with Scruffy Dale.
So he's siphoning money away from Sykes and Frankie Howard,
and if he had a success with his music acts he would count that
as something he'd done independently so he would get
the money. But if he was unsuccessful,
strangely enough, he was then marked down as an ALS project.
So they had to carry the the bill for it.
So this will have, will have upset Milligan, won't it?
Yeah. So they have this running and
it's all successful. They're all doing their progress
and it's going from strength to strength and you've got Steptoe
and so on. And Spike's doing his stuff.
And Eric Sykes, of course, has his TV series which runs all
through the 60s and 70s. Sykes and and then Sykes, yeah.
Yes, yeah. Originally written by Johnny
Spade, Until Death is Depart, starts 1965.
I mean, John Antrovis is, you know, he says that Johnny Spate
was working on that from the word go and was it called
Jamaica? Road or something.
Yeah. He tells that story about how he
he, Johnny Spate, is never there in his office when he's meant to
be. So John Antrovis turns out, and
he just says, oh, I just start writing.
It starts writing this thing which will eventually be still
deathless. Do part this idea that Johnny
Space already had. So he's developing sort of 10
years where it ever gets anywhere.
And the original, the original name for the character of Alf
Garnet was going to be Alf Ramsey.
It was Alf Ramsey, wasn't it? Yeah.
So yeah. So obviously ALS had a stable of
very talented writers. Just want to list some of the
programs and films and other projects that these people were
involved with, you know, from the 50s right up until the last
gasp of of ALS as we Know it. So obviously you've got The Goon
Show. You've got Hancock's Half Hour
Educating Archie. Frankie Howard Show, Harry
Seekum Show, The Betty Hill Show, Great Scott.
It's Maynard Show called Fred Son of Fred Idiot Weekly.
The Max Bygrave Show at the Tony Hancock Show.
Alfred Mark's time, which was awful.
The case of the Muckanees Battle Horn.
The Arthur Haynes Show, which Johnny Spate wrote until 1966.
Yeah, I think it wasn't Arthur Haynes.
He might have been Alf Garnett, wasn't that the story?
But then, of course, he he dies. Oh, right.
Yeah. The Army game.
The Ted Ray Show. The Jimmy Logan Show, Beyond
Ken. The Arthur Aske Show.
The Running Jumping and Standing Still Film.
Sykes and Citizen James. Comedy Playhouse.
Bootsy and Snudge. The Anthony Newley Show.
Steptoe and Son. That Was The Week.
That was the telly goons of course.
Hancock Dr. Who of course. Milligan's Wake St.
Round the Horn Till Death is duppart BBC Three films like The
Big Job, The Bargie with Harry H Corbett, What a Whopper.
The Rebel, which I'm going to watch tonight.
Actually, I've got the Blu-ray of it Finally, I'm going to
watch that tonight. The Spy With the Cold Nose,
which was originally offered to Peter Sellers and it was written
by Ray Allen. Well, that was the story, wasn't
it, that, yeah, after Sevens and over his art stack, and then
they with the script, and then he's rolling around on the floor
laughing at this script and they think they're going to kill him
again after his architect. And then he didn't do the film
at the end anyway. Yeah, Yeah, The Plank and and
other things like records like, you know, Ying Tong, Song,
Bridge on the River, Why just so much, So much that, you know,
the exemplified 50s and 60s British comedy.
Yes, yes, I know. It is just absolutely enormous,
isn't it really? And that's all coming out of
this one organization. So you think in a different age
they would have been a production company.
But yeah, Beryl's Beryl sort of brings in this guy, Robert
Stigwood. The big change then came into my
life, and indeed several of us was Robert Stigwood.
I wanted to do more production. I just thought it seemed the way
to go and it interested me a lot.
And I just thought one could make use of of this talent which
I was surrounded by. But I didn't have enough money
to do it. I was introduced to Robert
Stigwood, who I didn't know and he didn't know us.
And Robert at that time was very, very involved and very
successful in the music business and had some major artists like
Eric Clapton and the Bee Gees. And then Robert wanted to expand
that company into films and television, which she did not
know about. And so we ended up that we we
did do a deal with the Robert Sigrid organization and it
completely changed my life. He merges his agency with Mens
in January 1967 and he he'd for a time, he looks like someone
who could take over from Brian Epstein.
But The Beatles did not like him, so they would have nothing
to do with him. So that's where I think you know
you know if I if we get handed over to Robert Steak or we will
just record, you know, God save the Queen, you know over and
over again that's all you'll be be getting.
So but it's just interesting because he's involved with them
at this stage and then he gets he purchases A controlling
interest in ALS in 1967. So for your Beatles booms
connections, ALS is almost of the theme, which means that The
Beatles and the Goons end up as one thing under one
organization, you know, very, very nearly, but therefore was
just sort of wanting to kind of expand and do more stuff and
films and so on. And that just causes this rift.
And so when we did our program 20 years ago on associate
scripts, Eric Sites would not speak to us.
So we got rather A1 sided, you know?
Oh, it's interesting. You're sad, Yeah?
Alex Sykes was so vivid, Rather split, that for the rest of his
life he referred to Galton and Simpson as Simpson and Galton.
Really. So he So did he never speak to
them again after. That I don't think he did.
I think he literally never spoke to me.
Jeez, I think so, yeah. Simpson and Galton.
And what about Milligan? What was his?
Well, you see The thing is, you know we say this and this great
race, so this is about 196768. They split.
So that's the end effectively of associated London scripts as
we've thought of them as this kind of, you know, powerhouse of
comedy script writing and you know all the people you've
mentioned Spike and the Goons and Hancock and Step 2 and
Johnny Spade and so on. However, two words for you
cropped up recently on your podcast You Come the Castle.
Because when's that made 1970? Yeah.
So this is. This is.
In that, yeah, he's in that. With So The Beatles would have
with Frankie Howard. Yeah, Frankie Howard Beatles
wouldn't have anything to do with Robert Stigwood, but
luckily there was another group who would, and that was, of
course, the Bee Gees Cucumber Castle.
So Spike is involved, though that is some years after this
acrimonious, supposedly acrimonious split.
Yeah, and and and Beryl Virtue by this point is is managing
director of. Yeah, that's right.
So you know, she's she's gone from the typist who didn't want
to be the typist and now she just becomes this incredible
kind of force in in in TV and films and.
All this sadly and. Well, yeah, but you know, right
through, you know all those films that you mentioned, the
Steptoe films and this is the Eric Sykes film, isn't there,
Which is again, that's when was he making that because The Plank
and all this kind of business. That's 67, was it 16?
So again it's yeah, so it's either around the time of the
split or just after and yet it is done under the auspices of
you know associated London scripts or associated London
films or whatever. You know, the sort of spin off
thing is for that. So you know that's intro.
But he was he was a little bit bitter.
He wouldn't, he definitely wouldn't have anything to do
with this I presume we tried to get Norma as well because Norma
again, he'd been Norma Farms, that is, who carries on as
Spike's manager for years. She had been part of ALS and
Beryl was trying to persuade her to come with them.
And you know, I think she she probably really liked Beryl, but
decided to stay with Spike and look after him.
So Spike and Eric and Alan had a meeting, and Spike and I were
dead against it. They wanted to stay.
I stay at home court and do their own thing, you know, which
I mean they both had, you know, obviously, you know, enormously
successful careers just so they didn't really need it and and
they didn't want to lose their independence.
You know, I suppose also the the way it started in the 1st place
was to avoid being part of of another organization, which is
how I started. I mean, Ryan, I was thinking was
that it was just doing nothing, stagnating and it would be a
step forward. Well, I mean there's one thing
as well. I've just remembered few years
into the 70s, not sure which which series of cue it was.
Spike wants to do the that sketch with the dialects.
Oh, yes, of course, yes. And apparently, because
obviously Terry Nation held the rights to the dialects,
apparently Terry Nation initially said no to allowing
Spike to to use him. So the story is that Spike
reminded him that he had given him his break and you know, come
on mate, but a payback. So Terry consented, and so the
world was gifted the Pakistani Daleks.
Yeah, that's that's. I don't suppose he called him
mate though, But yeah, all those Beryl things, you know, The Who
with Tommy is that. And let us not forget the
Sergeant Pepper film with Bee Gees and Frankie.
Frankie Howard, yeah, there's all those pictures of of Frankie
and Beryl with Bee Gees. Robert Sidwood signed their
contracts or something, but. Look, there's so much we could
have talked about and. Yes, there is.
And I'm sure I had some very important points to throw it at
the end and I've now lost it. What was it going to be?
Oh, no, that's it. Yeah.
No, the other thing.
Yeah. So Eric's all very upset about
the the split. But the thing that I think Alan
Simpson remain quite upset about is, you know, this is also all
to do with London property prices.
Because remember, they've started off with some rooms
above the greengrocers. And then, you know, eventually
they moved to Orme Court and Spike and Eric as part of their
divorce settlement at the end of ALS.
They got all caught. So ALS owned that, but Eric and
Spike got the building at which eventually I think Spike sold
his share to Eric, didn't he? In the end.
So Eric earned it outright. So when it was sold in 2022 to
you say, the Kosovo embassy, 6.5 million look.
So you've gone from some rooms above the Green Gracer to jeez
to it looks like it should be worth more than 6.5 in there.
It's not worth 6.5 million, but in ridiculous London property
prices, that actually looks like they might have been quite good.
But yeah, it looks absolutely, absolutely lovely and what a
nice place to have worked all those years.
Absolutely, yeah. So there we are, the story of
right associated London scripts. So we skipped the surface.
We skipped the surface. And there's one picture of them,
isn't there? Which is on the front of Ken's
book of of Spike and Eric and Ray Galton.
Ellen Simpson and Beryl sitting there like she's and Spike is is
the one photograph of them all together.
And it must be from that 1955 or something when they all started.
Spike is doing his best to you know, crazy Spike.
Look the other four. Is that barrel, is that?
Barrel I think it is. That the original typist.
No, I think that's barrel. OK.
The other, the other four are going along with it rather
reluctantly. I think Alan Simpson just has
his head right down. He doesn't want to be associated
with this at all. He's just decided to dictate a
memo about that. Anyway, so an amazing, an
amazing time. An amazing.
And. There we are.
Absolutely. And as I as I said, in terms of
British comedy history, Associated London Scripts was
arguably the most important and influential gathering of talent
unsurpassed. Yes.
To this day. You know it is.
It is just extraordinary. But yeah, it is just amazing
figures and then you know some less amazing figures join in.
But, but also we should just mention, well, this is Graham
McCann's book of Spike and Go, but a lovely book about all this
thing is John Antropus's book Surviving Spike Milligan, if you
find a copy of that, OK, that is very much worth a look.
He does, he does at one point say that he got a phone call
from Peter Sellers in 1981. So, you know, if he'd had had me
into do some editing on that, I could.
And maybe it's through Morris Wood.
So so did Michael Bentin. Let's fix it.
Well, that's right. All right, Mike.
Well, listen, brilliant. Thank you so much for for your
time and. No, that is an absolute
pleasure. Thank you so much for having.
Me back on. Fascinating information there,
so and and I'm sure you'll you'll come back another time
and talk about something equally interesting.
So anything to plug anything at all.
I have my My Beatles tours around the pool.
So get in touch, come on my Beatles tours, give me a shout
through my website. I don't have a website on my
tour through Twitter. Don't don't get in contact
through his website because it doesn't exist.
It does not exist, but yeah, if anyone wants to come on one of
those, that will be lovely and. Yeah.
Yeah, we will just see if any of my various films.
And now we've just been trying with with my friend Paul
Cornwell to get various things off the ground and no one is
buying. We've just not managed to get
anywhere so far. So one thing we were trying
recently was, you know, the final, you know, Speaking of
Associated London scripts, we were trying to get the final
encock theme off the ground, the final Hancock, Galton and
Simpson projects, one of those kind of film scripts which they
wrote up for him and which he didn't do so well.
You know, it's it's Hancock's centenary.
But no, I think he's gone over the horizon, you know, so none
of the TV companies were interested in doing so.
We will try and do something else with it if possible.
It's all marvellous. They will be fine in the end,
and if only if only I had bought all court and had a share in it.
Brad and I had an office in their Kensington High Street and
on one occasion I leaned over too far in my chair and my elbow
went through a window and hit an artery and blood spurted
dramatically and Spike. Milligan heard my manful screams
and rushed in since he applied an expert tourniquet.
And then Brad Ashton drove me to Cherry Cross Hospital and the
doctor looked at this wound and kept looking at us very
suspiciously and say, how did you say you got this, this
injury? He said this looks like a knife
wound to me. Who applied this tourniquet?
And I said spike Milligan, which really made him suspicious.
And so I gave him Spike's phone number and he phoned and I said
to Spike, there's a man here who claims that you apply the
tourniquet. His name is Vosburg or Vosburg
and Spike Milligan characteristic, he said.
I've never heard of the man before in all my life and hung
up.