They spot. You see because I got the first
series of crazy people. Script out just for research,
really? Because I've never heard it.
Yes, I see crazy people wasn't so funny.
No, I agree, I agree. But if you did it and said by
the first goon show and ball whatever it is, instead a
selection of material from crazy people, or whatever it is rather
than go for the first script. I see, very interesting, I must
say that as an experiment, would you walked in on it?
Whatever. Do to help you?
Derek, whatever. Whatever gives you?
I'm very easy, I'm very malleable.
Well, I want a different shape every day.
I just lucky I like this today. Hello and welcome to goon pod.
My guest this week is the legendary much lionized producer
and writer. Dirk maggs the master of
cinematic audio Dirk is an innovator and a risk taker and
has developed a particular slap you around the face style of
soundscape in a career spanning over four decades, can anyone
else claim to have produced such a Rent and diversity of work,
including adaptations of Neil, Gaiman Agatha Christie, Stephen
King and Douglas Adams, as well as bringing the Marx Brothers to
new audiences, and creating audio comic books, featuring the
likes of Superman and Judge Dredd.
And when the definitive history of the goons as written, Dirk
will Loom large in terms of helping introduce the show to
new audiences and preserving it for future Generations?
No, stranger to Trophies just last year.
He was awarded the best audio book, producer award at the BFI
in London for I'm a guest. Ian Billings has described him
as the Spielberg of sound and I'm delighted to welcome you to
the show Dirk. Thank you, Tyler.
It's lovely to be here. Thank you for asking me a board.
I was worried that I'd been shut out of the Goon pod goon show
Legacy and I couldn't come on and tell you how much I love the
Goon show and indeed the goons themselves.
So don't let's let's let's start at the now first and then we'll
go back to the beginning. I know you've been working a lot
with said before Neil Gaiman. What are you working on at the
moment? Well, we're just about to
release the Sandman act 3, which is Niels, you know, huge comic
book Saga, which you wrote in the late 80s and up to the mid
90s based on an old DC, Comics character, the sort of
completely reinvented. And we've just yeah, we're just
about to release a third series and it's a huge.
It's an 11 and a half hour epic and Being Neil, it has
everything in it, including several kitchen sinks worth of
Mythology. Most both Neil's own mythology
and real mythology is there such a thing as real mythology?
Hmm. But get back to you on that.
Yeah, Norris Greek. You name it.
It's in there. And, you know, you talked in
your intro about this sort of audio movie style of doing
things. This is so, so vast, and so full
of different stories in the last Series in Act 2.
We went from revolutionary France to ancient Rome to
modern-day America, road trip stuff.
It's just amazing. It's such a privilege to work on
it and it's also the scariest thing I've ever done because it
has absolutely Die Hard fans, who, who know everything.
If you take one full step, they know where you are.
So it makes working on, Douglas Adams stuff which I have in my
time like a walk in the park in some ways working on hitchhikers
at that time just before social media, really kind of took off
in terms of. Yeah, it was very interesting
because the fans really resented, somebody getting the
box of Lego and building stuff with it, even though I was
working along instructions from Douglas.
And and actually, interestingly over the last 15 to 17 years
since we did it, it's become Cannon.
What we, you know what? I had to introduce to help
Square the circle of some of the stuff that Loose Ends Douglas
that hanging. And at the time was really, you
know, quite quite vicious. But then after a while it
settled down and the worth of it came out, I think so actually
it's been quite Smooth ride with Neil.
But then the big Advantage with Neil, is that he's still alive,
I can talk to him, you know, I can actually pick the phone up,
which is obviously, when Douglas passed on not something I could
do with Douglas, was that wasn't that some story before you got
fully on board with hitchhikers. Hmm.
That there was an early draft script that included dinosaurs.
Yeah, that well, it was before I volunteered to write it.
The writer was brought aboard, who is a really well?
Thought of very lovely man. Very nice guy and a very good
writer but he didn't get hitchhikers.
And so his draft script for the first of the third series.
Involved a talking dinosaur, he needed someone for Arthur Dent.
Imperious, toric Islington to talk to and he introduced it
talking dinosaur and the script arrived with me in radio light
entertainment, My desk in 1992 having discussed all this with
Douglas and I thought I don't think this is going to fly but
Douglas should see it. So I carried it over to Douglas
is house in Duncan terrorists and 40 minutes later.
I heard the explosion and and Douglas on the phone, come over
come over at once come over at once.
So, I went over to the house and Jane, his wife was just going Of
the to a case because she was a barrister, open the door and
they blacks in a barristers gear and she said he's downstairs.
So I went downstairs and Douglas banging away on this Old Mac
laptop near when they all black ones with a clamshell lid.
Yeah. And he's banging went and he got
to about page 3 of his script and and he's and he slammed the
top of the MacBook close and he said I can't write this fucking
book twice and and I said it was the Talking Dinosaur wasn't?
He said it's awful, it's awful. I can't believe it did that, you
know, and all this stuff. And it was really a weird moment
because it seems someone in sort of almost physical pain from
from having their work. Traduced.
I suppose although that wasn't the intention of the writer.
I know he just was finding a solution to a problem.
And what Douglas wanted was straight translation of the
book. It was pretty simple, really no
one had to You didn't have to gild the Lily, and that's what I
said. Well, you know, I could do it,
you know, I don't mind even if and if you like what I've
written and want to say, it's yours.
That's fine. But I could do it as long as I
get paid. So, it's quite fortuitous.
This talking dinosaur? Yeah, well, it was except then
the whole thing fell apart because there was a real problem
with the right? So, we didn't actually
eventually make this or I didn't even write it till the
mid-2000s. And of course, Douglas died in
2001. So it's really a bit sad because
we talked it all through. I knew how he wanted to do it.
I, you know, I I had it all in my mind but he wasn't there
anymore, which was horrible. Hmm, I want to ask you about
first of all, no, I asked about the making of the Patrick Mall
story. The Patrick Moore story.
Hmm. Which which?
Which predict the radio version of the radio thing?
Didn't you didn't get a sneak camera when you're ready.
Yes. No.
I'm sorry. I was, I didn't even know you.
I didn't know it was common knowledge, that we made a film
called well actually more story, really?
Yeah, because you mentioned about the same and you mentioned
nozzles Norse mythology and I believe you did a version of
modules Saga as well. In, you know, well, what are we
did? We did do a knows me and knows
story, but it was about, it was an amazing.
Where'd all this information government, obviously, right up,
very closely when I was at school.
When we were 16 in the early 70s, I just wanted to make
films. I really fancy making films and
so just brought in their family cine camera which was a standard
eight. It was that old And I'm with a
bunch of mates. We just said, well let's do
something and and we saw that Patrick was coming to open a
fate at ardingly College. We were in Hayward seethe,
grammar school, filmmaking society, and in mid Sussex and
adding like college was a bit up the road and it was the local
sort of private school and weird coincidence Department.
It is the school that Neil Gaiman attended and indeed, all
right, might even have been there on the day.
We were attended their school Fete.
Which was opened by Patrick Moore who descended in a
helicopter. So we went and settled about
fiddle last about and did this took some footage of Patrick
arriving and then we thought we should make, you know, because
they will all these, you know, the the the Al Jolson story or
the Benny Goodman story, or whoever, Glenn Miller store, you
know, all these things that we said we should do a story.
So I'm, you know, we just went around our house, it's and I had
to be Patrick because my Most resembled his without when I
didn't have a bit and put a bit of elastoplastic everyone
eyebrow and and and painted and eyebrows and more worked up and
this film. But the thing is, of course, at
that time, because they've been all these other story films, he
had all sort of silly gags in it.
Like, you know, when we had Patrick's parents being seen,
the Midwife comes to announce the baby has arrived.
It's very sketchy. Any knowledge of how biology
works. I think the parents came out and
one was Hitler. The father was Hitler and the
mother was somebody in blackface, which is terrible.
But at the time it is, there was the Al Jolson story in this was
supposed to be a story film. You know.
This was all the provenance under in this the early 70s and
so on and so forth and cringe, cringe cringe now to think about
it. But you know, that was We did.
But you know, this was a start and then we showed this effort
with some sort of crude soundtrack Cobble together, on
an old archive reel-to-reel at the school fair that, you know,
a few weeks later and it read about eight or nine minutes or
so on it was it was, you know, pretty rough but we had such fun
doing it. And, you know, again and a lot
of the influence then was from Monty Python and all those
python historical things, you know I could tell her the Honda
And not all of that with the gags.
And that we really that was very influential and so we decided we
do a Viking Epic. So we came up with this script
called they came and went where the Vikings invade and the
Celts, the tried to think of Revenge.
And so they put cascara in the Vikings needs and the Vikings
have their Victory. Banquet, they will have to rush
off to the Loo. Seems to be you know, Means of
defeating them, but it was great because everybody dressed up and
we had, I don't know, probably about 30 of us and I drew up a
sort of plan. Whereby you could make another
Viking outfit out of, you know, find an old bed sheet for a
cloak and make stuff out of cardboard, Dustbin lid Shields,
and so on. Anyway, um, I'm not a proud of
what we ended up with it with 1972 or 1 or whenever it was,
which was you know, which a Actually runs about 15 minutes,
20 minutes. And we had a full-scale battle
on Ditch. Landing Beacon with Vikings and
Celts and so on. And, you know, adding sound
effects and what have you? It was really fun.
Definitely influenced by python, definitely influenced by the
goons, and it sort of made me want to do, you know, to make
storytelling my my career. Why, but I didn't know was, I'd
end up doing it in sound. Only that's fine by me because
it worked out well. Yeah, totally.
So, do these these films still exist?
Yeah, they do. I mean, you know only for
private consumption. I think what I think the Viking
one could be seen, you know, we started an abortive gangster
movie the following year, but then we had to do our a level so
they went out the window, right? So but no, the Viking was good.
I mean, the Patrick one-eyed I didn't even show up to Patrick,
and I knew Patrick quite well later on because I didn't want
to upset him because it was just a bunch of lads being silly with
a Film camera and it really had nothing to do with him at all.
And, you know, as I say, there was stuff in some of the early
scenes, which was a bit upsetting.
So there's a kind of cleaned up version that I've shared with
with, with the gang from back then.
But yeah, it's not something like I want to be remembered
for. To be honest with you, you
wanted to be a Storyteller of sorts and you got into audio but
I know you worked in. You worked on BBC TV for a
tricky time, but you found that a bit of a chore.
Yeah dude, I'm always working. Presentation which means
basically stitching together. Our two hearts of the job ones
making trailers for things and when we're stitching together,
the evening's programmes on BBC, One and BBC, Two in prayers, a
and press B Studios, and television sent about them with
these tiny Studios. I was there for between a 1988
one, but 18 months really and I thought, well, I'm going to go
into drama, I want to go to or children's television, I wanted
to get into the storytelling B, the Telly but I I just found
Tilly center, it's never been a place.
Do you know, everybody's so nostalgic about it and so on and
so forth on, I get that if you worked there, you get attached
to somewhere, but I found it cold and and slightly
uninspiring, which is sort of terrible thing to say.
But I did frankly, I did. And, and I just thought I'm
having I had more fun in audio really, and the other things
I've played drums in bands. That was my other thing.
I was in a couple of bands of that time play around London,
you know? And so 12 hour, shifts were not
very, you know, kind of helpful and I'd met, you know, girl, I
wanted to marry. So I just sort of pulled off
back into the back to radio again and I didn't miss Telly at
all. I thought I wanted to work in
films and television, and I'd already spent a month on a film
set in Toronto, on a Donald Sutherland film and been bored
out of my My tiny mind, the only useful skill.
I came away with was how to lace up a Panavision magazine for a
film camera, you know, which is sort of a skill.
You're not called upon much to perform these days if you can
but you know it was that was it was amazing to me it wasn't for
me in a weird sort of way and yet you know, when I was at
College I was at teacher training College as it was in
Winchester King Alfred's, which is now a university of
Winchester. We'd run a television station
doing a weekly news program, which was really fun to do.
And I'd enjoyed that. But that was because we were
kind of bucking the odds we did it against, we didn't have
permission to do it. It was kind of a pirate
operation and I think that was the fun of it, you know, we we
we actually were laying coaxial cable at 3:00 in the morning
across the roofs of the Student Union and the other buildings to
get the signal from a TV studio to the Student Union, that was
rather fun gorilla. A kind of filmmaking and I think
I'd still like to do that. Yeah, but when it gets
formalized God, it's boring. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, it's amazing. How little events little
occurrences can have such a profound effect on people's
careers future careers. You went to work for radio to
doing trailers, I believe. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, and yeah. And there was this campaign
called Crime Check its what is it fair to say that that
campaign kind of At your career. Yeah, we did it that it took.
Yeah. I mean it's the weirdest thing.
It's like the slowest Domino topple in the world, right
Korea? It's so weird because I started.
I got into the BBC as a trainee Studio manager, which was
basically, you know, Studio technician playing in records or
tapes or operating. The desk was a was a dream far
in the future. You were lucky just to play
stuff in and get the coffee and the tea.
But I It was the only job I applied for coming out a teacher
training College. I knew, I didn't want to be a
teacher. I thought I might be an actor
realized I didn't have the skill for that applied for this job
because a friend had got it, somehow got into the BBC.
And I really don't think I'd get into the BBC.
Now, if I applied, I don't think they'd have me.
I don't think I'm enough of a, I don't know what, I don't think.
I would tick enough boxes for them, right, but but I managed
to get in and that kind of was the first top dog.
You know, and then, you know, ruling stuff out with the next
couple of Domino's. No, it won't be television that
we film and then, you know, my wife and I got married and we
had a baby and I'm saying, I just I can't be a studio manager
for the rest of my life because, you know, I'm not a technically
Adept person really I couldn't operate the gear but, you know,
I'm sure I can, I can create more than this.
And then, you know, we had a plan that I would try and get
into radio light entertainment. But because that was too big, a
jump. I had this interval where I I
worked at and thank God, they gave me the job radio to
presentation making trailers and it was enormous fun.
And we would make the standard kind of trailers like Ken Bruce
would, you know, do a spoken trailer for some new thing in
his show? We would just add a bit of music
and package it up and put it on carts and but occasionally, we
would get a special campaign like the license fee campaign
or, you know, Crime Check, which was sort of neighborhood.
Watched writ large. On BBC, Radio 2.
And for that, we were going to do a series of trailers and
these trailers would feature the radio to announces.
I'd have a duty announcer, Patrick and lungs or Steve
Madden or whoever. And so, we do all the regular
stuff in the morning. You know, Kimberly's is Trail or
Paul Jones for the rhythm and blues show or whatever it was.
And then in the afternoon, we'd leave the two trails that we
could play with and have a bit of fun with them.
So for the license fee, The campaign we did the one minute
Lord of the Rings which was you, it's just a stupid idea but, you
know, the dark lord would like something special for his
birthday old gets. Give him a television licence
Coke, that's sort of, you know, stupidity with big themes and
sound effects in a ceramic huge. This is before Peter Jackson, I
might tell he ripped me off, I know he did, but but we also had
this thing where we doing this crime check.
And I thought, let's do lots of big ol dick.
Teams famous detectives and I thought of Miss Marple and
Poirot and Sherlock Holmes and that's all Batmans.
A detective from be great to do Batman.
So because in those days, you know, being the BBC had to clear
rights all the time and I didn't had a clear rights on Batman.
So I looked up the phone number was for DC Comics in New York.
A so it was this and which was in those days like ringing Mars,
you know, it was like completely possible.
So I rang got put through to the international Affairs
Department, lady called Phyllis, got in the lion and, and who to
become a great friend and who introduced me to Neil Gaiman.
I might add but Phyllis, so this was a phone call out of nowhere.
Just me thinking, right? Okay, International directory,
inquiries daddy Duty down and long story short.
I've set up a factory Batman Trail and she said well actually
one of us is coming over on their way to the Frankfurt book
fair next week so they'll be in London.
So She could come and check. It's all right and so we made it
and had nice lady. Good Chantal turned up.
Listen to it and said it was okay.
Meanwhile in a hidden cave deep underneath the Mansion on the
outskirts of Gotham City. Holy frustration Batman until
the new crime computer is ready. Can we keep tearing the rising
crime rate that's the last circuit in place Robin.
Now to switch on for a complete picture of crime, statistics
worldwide, only Global crisis and we've got our hands full
with Gotham City. Only people.
I knew how to protect themselves.
Wait let's ask the computer thinking Batman, what does it
say? It seems we have an ally and
I'll fight you mean. Superman Wonder Woman.
Do the BBC all next week? They're running a campaign on
radio tool called crime. Check at vising people on how
they can avoid becoming victims of crime and how victims can
help themselves this be the end of the dynamic duo is this where
we hang up? Our utility.
I've doubted Robin but let's hope.
People tune into radio tuned next week for Crime.
Check the backseat. the Batmobile Robin, if only we had
cried Jack here in Gotham City, And as she left to go on to
Frankfurt, she said, oh, by the way, next year's Superman's 50th
birthday. You might want to do something
for that, not knowing that I was just in trailers.
Mmm, but me, applying that moment for light entertainment
and part of the application for a production job at my tent was
to pitch. Be able to pitch ideas.
You had to come in with three ideas to pitch.
Yeah, I thought oh birthday Superman sounds like a good
opportunity for a Injury. So I pitched it.
I got the job and the program was commissioned.
And so in 1988 we did a thing called Superman on trial which
was the idea the conceit was that it was a docudrama.
You had Superman on trial, the defending attorney was Lois
Lane. The prosecuting attorney was Lex
Luthor, which if, you know, Superman means that his
girlfriend's defending. It his biggest enemy is
prosecutes, which also shows that the whatever night School.
They had in Metropolis in the late 80s, turned out.
Lots of, it's a lawyer's anyway, and we could then in the context
of the trial, presenting, as evidence, we could dramatized
bits of the old Superman comics as evidence, which is what we
did. And so, you know, that kind of
began the ball rolling on my comic book connection, which in
turn got Douglas Adams interested in my work and asking
me. Pick up the reins on hitchhikers
because Geoffrey Perkins had gone off to Telly.
Yeah. And also through another route
and yet strangely, another Protege of douglass's was Neil
Gaiman, who was introduced to me by by the lovely Phyllis who is
no longer with us all these interconnections.
It's so weird. Yeah.
And at the same time while I was at Radio to I first met Spike
because he was, we were doing children in need and every year
we had to do children in need, it was just getting celebs who
were in doing interviews to do a little trailer for us.
So for example, Don Messick, who did the voice of Scooby Doo?
Oh yeah I got him to be Scooby-Doo but you know I'm you
know, there's something wrong. Dom was lovely and all sorts of
great people like Pat Boone The sort of wow squeaky-clean pop
star who very you know very Christian American Christian.
It's like guy by the time he came in but he was lovely
actually he walked past the play of plate of really curly
sandwiches in the corridor outside the the the continuity
sweet and said these are good. Pick one up at net except why
I'm hungry and I thought that sound when they're on a stick,
but spite was in. And so I got spiked to I wrote A
quasi Spike script saying. You know my folks it's me you
know Spike Milligan. Oh while I'm typing error you're
still all the game show, you know stuff.
Yeah. Stuck the queue theme over it
and that was one of the things but that was my Big Thrill
meeting Spike Milligan and I thought that would be it, you
know. Yeah well I've that's one tick
off the bucket list At that time.
So that's the late. Late 80s.
Yeah, about 88. Yeah.
So did you get, did you get spiked on formal?
Did you get spiked being difficult?
Yeah, good question. It was 87.
Remember now because by AJ, I was in light N.
I never had spiked off form. Okay.
I am so lucky. He and he we got on incredibly
well, and I think it probably because you are loved it.
Unconditionally, I never never asked B to do anything.
You didn't want to do and I must have made it clear in my
demeanor, probably the Bowing and the approaching only on my
knees and leaving the room walking backwards in here that I
sort of is in minor deity. But no, we he was always very
good with me. I did see him having moments
with other people and And those other people getting very upset
because Spike was being super hostile.
But that seemed to me to be where he felt that his personal
space, in some way was being encroached upon now and he
needed that bubble around him and you entered the bubble.
If you, I don't know if you were vibrating at the same frequency
you were fine. If you vibrate at a different
frequency, he would be defensive and then look out.
So yeah, but never a problem with Spike.
Always just lovely, really? Actually, to be honest, leave us
some he was a massive fan. Messy was always promoting in
the early 90s flywheel shyster and flywheel.
Yeah, well, that was that was the that was the interesting one
because we I did a documentary about the Goon show in 1991 for
the 40th anniversary called at last the go on show and And the
research is Mike, poynton, sadly no longer with us Michael point
and just the nicest one of the nicest people on the planet and
a fine trombonist, and also an authority on the comedy of the
era. In fact, it was Michael, who,
who took Max wall to lunch and Max died as they were leaving
the restaurant which was terribly sad but, you know, that
was Mike. He was really To that sort of
thing. I wanted to do a 40, I was
desperate to do something about the Goon show desperate.
And once I was in light entertainment and Spike was, you
know, in doing stuff, the Milligan papers was happening
and usually it would be Jonathan, James Moore producing,
Jonathan who was was either head of Department in or about to be.
And who was a huge friend to me as a producer in the department.
He really encouraged me because I was a very square peg in a
round hole, because my contemporaries were Amanda.
You knew she and David Tyler and Lisa Evans and people who were
doing really cutting edge, common in cutting-edge comedy,
didn't interest me in the least. I didn't want to do it.
It didn't it didn't make me laugh.
Well Amanda would have been doing what on the hour?
And yeah, only own stuff like the exactly.
Yeah, anyway, it was, you know, I mean it was obviously is a
genius, you know, it's great. It just wasn't for me, didn't
work for me. And I wanted to do, you know
what I wanted to do? I wanted to do stuff with gags
in. That's, that's the comedy.
I like and the very first thing I was given was a thing called
the long hot Satsuma, which was Barry Cryer.
Barry, Cryer Grand Garden Pool. Be Davis where the writers and
joined by Julia Hills and Alison Steadman Allison.
Yeah, that was and that was both lovely and very scary because as
you know, my comedy Godfather's. Thank God were Barry and Graham
and Paul, and and Barry kind of took me, led me by the hand.
It would typically bury into the world of Comedy, right.
Oh, you're into the main business of the day.
I have a feeling the discussion may take more than just one
meeting. So might I suggest we look at
our Diaries and try to sort out a mutually convenient date to
get together again. Rise.
Can anyone make next Tuesday? No.
Alright, Wednesday. Yep, yeah, that's fine.
Good for me. Yep.
Fine for me too. No, I'm sorry.
It's Chaka. All right.
Then Thursday, Friday. Next Monday then yeah?
Yep. Yep.
One morning or afternoon
morning. No.
But afternoon. No.
Well, when can you back? I'm free to choose a after
11:00. And One else make that yes.
Fine by me. Okay, good.
Well it's next Tuesday they do next Tuesday.
No, sorry. I can't make that.
Why did you say you could? And I'm sorry, I just turned
over to pages, right? All right, the Tuesday after
that. Yeah, yeah, not for me.
It isn't why not? Well I'm meeting G.
Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
I'm sorry. I'm not free, then either.
I'll just never forget how kind he was.
And and, and yet at the same time, they would try and see
what they could get away with. So Graham, I remember brought in
the script one week, which still had the Tilt, the, the sort of
the visual directions in Forest a tele sketch.
And I did, I did some of my character Graham.
This does look a bit like a television sketch.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Didn't get made Dirk.
So, you know, I'm sure gonna Translate That sort of thing.
But but you know they they how how lucky guy could I have these
guys is my comedy Godfather's and of course, being burying
Graham and Paul, it was a gag base thing and we had Julia and
Alison. He's just a genius.
So that was a wonderful start. And then everybody at that time,
when they came into light, n generally got one of two
programs to care. Take that either got the news
headlines or they got week ending.
And I was praying, I got the news headlines because it was an
audience show week, ending, didn't interest me because I'd
been to the sessions at the Paris and there was a lot of
skill involved in it and so on. But again, it wasn't gag based.
Whereas with an audience in the room you've got to make them
laugh. And so in 88, I took over the
news headlines and with Roy Hudd, Chris Emmett, and June
Whitfield. And this was at the Paris
Studio, where As We Know, The goons recorded and everybody
recording The Beatles. Recorded Led Zeppelin, Glenn
Miller's Army Band everybody and all those, you know, round the
horn. So it was really taking the
reins of a kind of Rolls-Royce comedy machine.
As far as I was concerned and at the same time, learning the hard
way that making comedy, it was a real Challenge and on my third
or fourth week, I don't know. It's weird.
You know what? I haven't.
The dates on this. And I'm really going to have to
because I've got all my digitized all my headlines, but
it was a couple of weeks before Thatcher resigned, Roy took me
as I know that October. November 1990, think 8989, I
don't know, they know. Anyway.
Yeah she she resigned but notice this was about a week before.
Android took his side and Roy have very poor eyesight.
So when he spoke to you, we kind of got right in your face.
They said, oh, Dirk is so it's not working it and I've done
about maybe six shows, I don't know.
And I saw that. Oh my God, you know, the bottom
dropped out of my world. It wasn't working and because
Roy was the nicest person in the world and it was always a joy to
work with him because he just wanted you to be happy and the
audience to be happy and everything.
So when you know kind of this, this thing happened and he said
it's not working and I said, oh really isn't it funny enough?
I said, well, it's not, it's not their aunt gags, he said, but
the gags don't do anything. And I said in what way?
And he said, well, you know, you can have lots and lots of comic
Cuts, but unless it's got a thread through it people, it
doesn't work as well as it could.
And I want to weigh in and looked at, you know, the script
we the show, we've done that week and made the best job I
could have its own, but I realized He meant was it context
unique context? Even if it's a sketch show
you've got to have context and you've got to have the through
line with everything. We're in a sketch you know you
you signal where you're going to go and then you go there.
It's kind of the rule of good storytelling show.
Yeah you tell the audience what you're going to do and then you
go and do it and and that sounds simple to do.
You actually try and then if you add to that you've got to make
them laugh and surprise them on the way you know that.
That was what he was saying effectively.
So I had like a show or two to try and get my act together.
And I was really on tenterhooks because I thought this is going
to get me thrown out because I was only on contract.
You know, we it wasn't a staff job, being a light, em producer.
And then one week, I went down to the Paris Studio wall down
from Piccadilly, Circus station with me, program boxing only
bits in and Maureen. My lovely PA was came by taxi.
She had the I'm box beg your pardon.
I came just with my scope and that last walk down Regent
Street. You know, became I've always
said to my wife that if I, if I die and there's an afterlife and
it's a good one. I'll find myself walking down,
lower Regent Street, looking to produce a HUD lines.
Because, you know, it was this Buzz of just doing a show that,
you know, is going to entertain people.
Yeah. With people, like draw and June
Whitfield, you know, he's lovely and Chris is brilliant.
Anyway got there, and I'll like opinion.
One of the writers was out on the pavement having a smoke and
in those that you could smoke inside the building.
So it wasn't like we doing him. So I like having all right
there, fire drill. No, he said, have you not seen
the news? No, that just resign shit.
And I had this, you know, had these scripts and you know that
40 pages of the satire based on the back.
There's exactly Estill Broman. Well not quite but a good you
know, a good 40 percent of the script.
Mmm, so anyway we just toss it out and the thing about
headlines was that the writers would always come down to the
performance to see if there's their sketches got laughs, and
to make sure they got a credit and all of that.
And so we rewrote, you know, half the show that morning with
the audience queuing up outside and the audience came in on
cited and we did the show. But the thing about it was
because we had To feature this thing that happened, it gave
context to the jokes and I just suddenly something switched in
my head and I could see what Roy meant and I could see how it
worked and after that everything worked fine.
So it was a really good education in, you know, comedy
having to have context, let's reel.
Seat of the pants stuff as well having to attacks.
Yeah, so okay. So you mentioned you've already
mentioned it last to go on show 9 1991 was the 40th anniversary.
Three of the first goon show and there was a lot of Celebration
and commemoration and yeah, Chief among that was, this was
this epic documentary which was I must have.
I mean obviously I taped at the time and I must have just worn
it out. Just listening and listening
over and over again. And it was superb because the
people that you got and the choice of clips and just
everything worked. So how did how did that all come
about? Well, I knew I wanted to do
something. I was in light entertainment.
I was working at the Paris. I was working with people like
Roy, June and Chris Spike was coming in doing his thing.
Stephen Fry, Emma Tom everybody was you know in at that time it
was in her late 80s, early 90s. It was quite a feat, kund time,
nor Raider light entertainment and and I wanted to work with do
something in traditional comedy. And, you know, it became clear
that, you know, it was the the anniversary Coming up for the
40th anniversary of the goons so I pitched it and I'm pretty sure
I can't honestly remember, you know, it could be Mike point in
came to me knowing I was keen on the goons or whatever it was but
certainly we got the commission to do an hour-long documentary
and I just wanted to make it absolutely as good as I could
get it as good as the goons used to be.
That's what I wanted it to be and my It was great.
That's um, you know, thinking of angles, we could do and so on.
And then, first order of business was, is get interviews
with Spike and with Harry. And well, obviously not with
Peter, but with Michael, but the other thing was to get someone
who really could get their hands on the really good stuff and
that's when Ted Kendall came into the picture.
Sure. And Ted, is the person whose
restored all the CD releases of the gun shows.
And what he doesn't know about the goons is, Ain't worth
knowing and you know, technically he's just done this
amazing job on them and and so Ted became part of the there
were the three of us kind of working on it.
And so I could say to Ted, what's the most outrageous
effect sequence in the goons? And he'd say well which one of
the 20 I can think of she wants to use you and so we would be
the answer the door, you know, after this huge sequence of
really Bonkers of AIDS or whatever it was and also what
time is it Eccles? You know what?
Is the most perfect example of a goon a section for going to show
you that's pretty hard to beat as you know.
So perfect, almost perfect. So you know that that was Ted
brought all this to the thing and because he was at that time
doing the cleanups, he had all the shows and you could give me
clean up things and we spent a long time, looking for the
whoosh, the perfect gun show, whoosh and right?
Yeah, you know because there was a worse, but it's always got
lots of surface noise on it because the Record the 78% Knack
at that they used and I actually found a clean goon show was but
we could never work out. We thought we'd have to do it.
We were trying to figure out how, what is that, is that?
Is that a cable? Bring washed part of my core, is
it sounds a bit like a roller skate?
You know, we were trying so is the things together.
Wash back. It's a bit like Milligan.
Trendy the sock full of custard, you know, sure.
Yeah, literally do what you hear.
See if that works anyway. And then Mike point in and I
went down to spikes house in Rye to dumb woman's Lane where Spike
lived and Carpenters Meadow was the house, but there was a
plaque underneath this Spike foot saying, built by the blind
architect, he wasn't very impressed with and Shelia
spikes. Third wife, let us say in and
went through to West Bank with in the living room.
Why put up and, you know, put a mic up right in his face.
He said, do I really need to have this?
I said, yes. Yes, you really do you really do
and Rick that and a little cassette or is it that note
cassette recorder but a good one, professional.
And and we sat with Spike and we talked for about three hours
during which occasionally, you know, tea and Cake would appear
from Sheila. And afterward spike said he
never talked so much about the gun show.
Ever my personality made me want to write a better one each time
and I almost succeeded in doing that actually improving the
quality of the shows. It was sort of strange,
Insanity. It was my place in heaven.
I was trying to fight for its or was I couldn't stop it.
You know, there's nothing I could do with, I had to write
it. Like I was preordained and he
was you know, great and Mike. was good because Mike can ask It
was good, we sort of tag-teamed. So if I was asking something
might would think up a different question or or spite would say
something and he would might could come in from another
angle, you know, or talk about music, you know, because might
being a trombonist sniping a Trumpeter, you know.
So we kind of kept it light and that was great.
So it was very, very good. And so spite talked a lot about
things and he told me and he said, You know how much he loved
flywheel? He said, I'd give my left arm to
be in your flywheel program and I said, we'd have to give any
limbs just come and do it. So that was, you know, that was
kind of like, right? Definitely got its.
And I said, well, while we're talking, would you consider ever
doing something about the goons, like we did with flywheel?
And he said, I don't know, he said I, you know, I haven't got
that, you had a Reeve anymore and of course we haven't got
Pete. And, you know, and I said, well,
how about if we got you and Harry and Michael and did some
of the early stuff? He said, I don't know, I don't
know. You know, he was, I didn't want
to push him because they didn't want to get out of his comfort
zone, but at the same time, I was sort of interested.
It was basically, my idea was what became goon again, okay?
Right. Right.
That I was seeing if he wanted
to try that. Yeah.
So so we did that. And the thing was, we also had
these interviews with Harry and with Michael And Harry was that,
you know, lovely because we I went down to him his house with
you know in Surrey and and Maya are answered the door and come
in, come in, come in and it was just like being with your
favorite aunt and uncle, they were just absolutely lovely Down
to Earth. Take you as they find you, love
you for yourself unconditionally nice people.
And, and it was so easy. Chat with and Harry was great
because I think probably that's the thing he filled in a lot of
the gaps that Spike unless and and you know Harry said oh look
you know here's photo got the photo of Matt hears us with
Prince Charles, he is this, he is that something and that was
so kind of warm and friendly. And then Michael, we got in
touch with now, Michael is working with one of my fellow
producers, Andy a list, he had a show going on Radio 2 or
something. So he's in and out of light
enter lat, very good show, bother me.
Yeah. Well, it's Michael, isn't it?
I mean, you know, Michael was a genius in his own way, was me.
Yeah. Anyway, Michael was lovely.
Tara ahead and do an interview and he said, absolutely.
And so I booked the Paris for an interview with Mike because in
those days we didn't need to we didn't need to pay for our
bookings. So I thought the whole of Paris
just sit down Michael benteen, I thought putting some where he
knew, you know, so we were on the stage of the Paris, huge
barriers. And there's just me and Michael
and my pointing and we're talking to a matter and it was
really a great conversation. And again, you know, he would he
would reenact bits of osric, pure heart, you know?
And then we had and then the, the joke was, we had six steam
trains, all the same time. We would do all the sound
effects everything. Yeah, it was just so lovely.
Lovely. I mean they were just like
favorite uncle's. Sprite was like the edgy Uncle
Harry is like the uncle. You go to will be all troubles.
And Michael be the uncle you went to just to entertain you
because they were just so sparking off, brilliant.
And and we had this fantastic interview with with Mike.
And so, you know, we had so we got, we got benteen Milligan.
We've got Harry. I went to interview, Angela
Morley. Who was what he start?
Yeah. Met Angela.
A great interview with her and she was fabulous.
Brilliant memories of the music because it's such a big part of
it and you know talking about poggi pogs in the sax players on
things that only the band would know kind of thing.
You know, and and very interesting.
My job was to write cues for the program, whatever Spike wanted.
And to write this arrangement for Max geldray every week.
And so, I did that for about two years.
Then one day slander. Black Santa didn't want to do it
anymore. So I got that opportunity to the
links between why, like Hollywood epics and couldn't get
Max girls. Great Gilder, he was in the
states, didn't get Ray, I don't know why, don't know why, right?
But, but that was enough. I had an embarrassment of
riches. And so I took all of the
interviews and I took all of the clips that Ted Given me.
And I went into this is, I did this twice and both times, it
was a kind of interesting, kind of a damascene moment where I
was in this h58. I think it was this channel
where it was just take machines on the desk in broadcasting
house, no actual Studio, but that's where you glued together
programs. And the first, the first
damascene moment was doing the Superman on trial thing where I
took the whole thing. Away from the studio managers.
Because now, I wasn't technically supposed to edit but
I said, do you mind if I edit this and I took it away, mixed
it myself. And while I mixed it myself, I
realized I could make a radio drama sound more like a film.
Then a radio Drama by adding music and sound effects, but
really layering up and while doing it thinking, oh my God,
yes, this works. But oh my God, what a bloody rod
for your own back? It is to make stuff this way.
But, you know, so, And then ended up spending my life doing
it. But the other one was this goon
show because I took all this stuff up and it really was in
pieces. I think I'd done.
So, a little bit of editing in the office, on my Reeboks, but
this was really, I had to turn out and I had till the morning.
Basically, I said to Les Lesley, my wife, I won't be home
tonight. Love them kind of be editing
this damn thing together because I need to break the back of it.
And so, I was there for about 10 hours or more 12 hours maybe
from about. Yeah, from about 6:00 at night,
Till six in the morning and I cut it together and and and it
was just one of those things where you've got a job and when
you get in the zone you don't want to get out of it because it
becomes like a piece of music in your head, you can see where you
need to go to next. So you do that, bit of if I do
this. But here, that bit by Harry cuts
into this bit of the World War Two show, which then if I pick
up with Angela, talking about the music would lead to this
thing by Michael bent. About.
And so it I was really two things happened at the end of
that. I had 58 minute documentary
about the goons that was inordinately proud of.
That was the first thing. Then, the second thing that
happened was that I knew I would never ever, ever do a
documentary. Again, if I could possibly help
it because there would be nothing else I would ever want
to make a documentary about because this was my love letter
to the goons. Yeah.
And that's it. You know, that was it apart from
the Beatles? And there was ilion's of
documentaries about the Beatles but you know, so that was my,
that's that won't that my two big takeaways from, it were
that's it and that's it. I love the way it was.
It was like a 58 minute goon show in the sense where you've
already said it, referred to that, but it had a break for Max
geldray - breakthrough Harrington and it actually had a
payoff at the end. So is It was incredibly well put
together and structured, it was inspired by them you know it was
inspired by the best of what they did, you know, that was the
thing. So in a way the gags it was
timing out the gag. So that every time, you know, it
just as you got to the end of everything, you needed to say
about something, something else picked up, the followed
naturally. I had one more one, more, two
more, Encounters with Spike in the intervening 10-year, period,
the with the year, after we did goon, you really enjoyed the
documentary. I've got a nice note from Norma,
but then at the end of the following year, Richard need is
one of the other producers, enlightened, who tended to be in
charge of doing getting reruns of stuff out there like gun
shows and so on somehow, I got deputed, the job and and the the
case needed to be made to Radio 2 or radio Fork.
I think that's To that goon shows should be repeated.
And so I enlisted, Ted candles help and went to radio to and
said, look, I can get these. Not only can we repeat them but
we can repeat the restored, you know version, I remember.
Yeah. And and and they said yes, and
so we got it on the air. And I got a lovely letter from
Spike, which I have on my office wall here which says, you know,
my did can't believe it's you. I have to thank for getting the
gun show and thank God you. Were there.
I don't think anyone else would have thought of it, which, of
course they would. So it doesn't negate the fact
that it's, and it's a lovely letter from Spike.
I think it's signed by Janet, not by spiked by the by the, by
Norma's PA, but yeah, fact is, it's still, I know it was a
bike. So that was that.
And then, at the end of the decade in 1999, I was asked by
radio for to put together a sort of sound collage.
Looking forward to the next millennium in their innocence.
And and I and I got lots of celebs to say things.
So, I went down to Carpenters Meadow again in done woman's
Lane to spike, and I recorded him doing a sort of Millennium
greeting, which was, you know, rather sweet and nice.
And he gave me a bottle of wine for, you know, just sort of
thank me for, you know, the documentary and the flywheels
and this that and the other. And also for the Millennium and
I still keep it. I have a note Open it never
opened it. Coolly.
It's the Australian red. He had quite a sizeable seller.
He did his bike. Yeah, it did.
And it's covered in dust and I think some of that dust must be
Spike, so I put it in a box. Precious Precious.
Yeah. If I can, I can clone him if
only dinosaurs didn't get in the way.
So donkey ones. Yes, yeah.
I'll go there together. So, you know, so we kind of
stayed in touch in a kind of a way.
Anyway, can One fiftieth anniversary and I'm sort of
thinking do I want to do? You know, because I do walk away
from projects thinking? Yeah, that's enough of that now.
But I just thought we never did that thing that you know that
that flywheel goon show in the style of flywheel time thing.
Hmm. And of course by then it's ten
years later and spiking hairier nearing.
The end of their lives and of course, Michael died by that.
I think yes. But I was a bit ambivalent about
doing it and this is a A story that I've only told Dan
Schreiber, I think the other day when I saw him but who does the
fish body this year? What?
Yeah, such thing as a fish knows that you.
But anyway, I'm when I interviewed, you know, I said to
spike when we did the interview for that last It Go on show.
I said, how about doing a goon show like we did flywheel and
would you come aboard? And he said I don't think don't
think I've got the Esprit de For anymore.
So hmm. So I kind of left it, I thought
well I'll come back. You know, time and I said it to
Harry and Harry said, I'll do it.
I'll do it said Harry. I'd love to.
Hmm. So, you know, one out of three
or four and then Michael benteen we did the interview in the
Paris about the goons. And then at the end, I said, by
the way, Michael, I've been thinking, you know, would be
possible maybe to resurrect some of the early stuff that really
has been lost. And this was before some of the
tapes turned up, I should add And you know would you be
interested in cake taking our it's hard?
I don't know. I don't know.
I'd love to see the guys you know.
He said, let me think about leaving.
Let me think about it. So, you know.
Okay, fine anyway. But a week later the phone rang
is Maureen. Got it my PA and she said, it's
Michael benteen. Do you want us to teach it as if
yes? To course, like it.
So he handed a cross. Yeah, it's Mike Banting and he
said, look, I've been thinking about this idea of yours and
I've actually had a word with Peter about it and really
doesn't want it to happen. Okay?
And as you know by then Peter had been dead for 13 years.
Yeah. Hmm 12 you anyway and because I
respected Michael very much and I respected his beliefs you
know, in this sort of thing I said, okay, okay.
Well thank you Michael, thank you for thinking about it.
Put the phone down. I thought holy smoke.
Well, if Peter doesn't want us to do it, perhaps we shouldn't
he interesting. You say that he's not I know
might was into yeah, that sort of thing also.
So, was sellers, I mean, salads used to used to claim that he
would communicate. With the late Larry Stevens.
Oh, really? Yeah.
Okay. I thought was Dan lean.
Oh well, that is depending on what sort of Moody was in.
Yeah. Larry and down.
Well, look, you know, the thing was nothing was going to happen
at that time. Anyway, I was busy with flywheel
and doing other stuff, so it, you know, it kind of went away.
But nine years later, when we came back to a 50th Anniversary
show, I knew spike in Harry wouldn't do it and Michael
didn't want to but at the same time I thought you know what,
it'd be great to try. And so I went to Angela Morley
and I said because the one thing I knew was the music is the key.
Part of a goon show, you don't know that until you work with
it. But the music is Sets up this
Lush frame in which anything can then happen.
So went to Angela at Abbey Road to okay, because she was doing a
bank you, that's right. So went down all those stairs in
the control room, and I'm just freaking out my God, Angela
Molly Beatles. And, and she said, hi and we
chatted. And I said, look, I'm going to
put a gun show together. I think if I could, if I can get
backing, would you do it? And she said, well, I'm just on
my way back to Palm Springs where she live.
She said. But how about you talk to a guy
called John Wilson? I've said Jose and she's always
a Geordie, is a Geordie musical director and he's really into
what I do, and I've never heard of John at that point.
So I just said, okay, could you give me the phone number?
And she said sure, you know, and she emailed a little whatever.
Anyway, got me into Abbey Road to I didn't mind.
I knew I could compile the scripts that wasn't a problem.
I went into BBC archives. I got all of the I think first
three series of the Goon show the crazy people stuff.
Yeah. Because what I wanted to do is
try and do something that hadn't been hurt.
That was the in the end we did something that had been heard
over and over but you know that's the name of the game then
I had to pitch it so I went to see Jim Moore who was
controlling radio to at that time and Jim was X television
light entertainment very Tough, very capable guy who didn't
suffer fools gladly and I walked into the office and Leslie,
Douglas who became control after him was actually, when I was
working back in the day in radio to presentation my PA so Leslie
was now his assistant, so it's pretty easy to get in to see him
and he said, what do you got younger?
What have you got? And I said, I want to do gun
show, Jim full, Orchestra, the lat The playhouse and I don't
think I can get spike in Harry, but if I got you, an A-list
cast, would you do it? I think I can get Andy seek, and
who's his father, son, and Jim sadly from it.
He said, how much do you think it's going to cost them?
I said double head 16 Grand which in those days was you know
Fair bit of money. Hmm and he said it's that the
Fermi said don't fuck it up. Those were the days.
Yeah. So and I'd already run Andy
seeking, I knew I needed somebody and Andy would be my
best bet and Andy, I'd not actually met in the past, but
he, you know, he'd been friends with friends of mine.
So got in touch with him and he was a little bit kind of II.
What we got here? When I rang kind of another You
know, a bit wary, you know, we say, yeah, overzealous fans.
And I showed him, you know, I had I had form and I knew his
dad and all of that and and he said, yeah, okay, let me think
about it. So I could and I was pretty
sure. I could getting, you're not
going to take you down. To tell me that he found you a
week later. It's either been talking to
Peter. No ha ha, wouldn't that be
great? He did talk to his dad though.
Hmm and Harry said think of it His carrying on the family
business, which I thought was lovely.
Yeah, yeah. So so I had.
Yeah. And he was in and so I had, so
I'm writing John Wilson and said, look, you know, doing a
gun show with with, with Wally stock cubes and, you know, would
you be up for it? Yeah, absolutely.
He was really keen and, and he said, there's so much to tell
you on this Tyler. That's why I'm Enough humming
urgh is, this is a huge thing in my life for me to have done this
show even now. After all the other things, this
still stands out as being a magical, little thing and I
would drop everything. Now, if somebody said you could
do the show again tomorrow because we were assembling it
was like redoing the Manhattan Project.
But instead of a lethal weapon that would kill Millions, it was
a joyful weapon that would Delight. light and surprised
millions that was the different, but it was like a sort of
Chemical experiment. It was like cooking a delicious
meal. You had to get the ingredients
at just the right temperatures in just the right amounts to
make it really work. And so I'd got John, we needed
to get the music, John didn't have the actual sheets and
Angela hadn't held onto them. So we had to go into the BBC
music library, which at that time I think was in Henry wood
house in the basement. By broadcasting house and we had
it was a bit like a sort of library system.
It was like a Dewey Decimal System where you found what you
were looking for by going through kind of like rose 68
shelf, 22 thingamajig goon show cues and we had no idea what we
were going to find at all and what we found was a stack of
Music. Manuscript about a foot high, on
a bottom shelf in. Very damp part of the basement,
right? And picked it up and it was
damp, if not wet. And inside all the, it's all
handwritten. It's all the band cues the, the
conductor sheets Angelo's conductor she?
Yeah, she was worried start with fading but I mean like in very,
very faint Brown markings on a ston.
Stay virile paper. And I said, we've got to get
these out of here because there was some sort of rule about not
taking stuff out and so we could just put them under our coats,
John Wilson and snuck out of the every Woodhouse and I said, John
what we're going to do is they don't worry I can't do the
Geordie accent, is that? I'll get them transcribed.
So oh this carry a bag full of Music manuscript.
And in the meantime we booked the playhouse And this was
actually being done through Cellar Door Productions, because
I'd buy an hour left light entertainment and was working at
selador, and Paul Smith and who was the boss was vote?
You know, he was hot off the success of Who Wants To Be A
Millionaire but he you know, he totally supported us during
which was decent of him and Steve's bring food.
And one of his assistant, you know, sort of management people
was was lovely and help me sort out really.
Vital stuff. So, I got the band and we've got
the dots. So John was squirreled away in
his flat in West London working on that with his copyists
working out the parts for the reason, the brass and the daddy
do. And then I needed to get two
more actors to be Peter and Spike and another actor to be an
announcer. Well, my idea for the announcer
was let me get Christopher, Timothy, who Entry Timothy son,
of course it's you know, good actor and everything and so on
and got hold, of course, through the agent.
He drank straight back. Yep.
I'm in. Can I do some voices as well?
That's just, you know, hold on, hold on.
But anyway, so he was sorted and then I needed to voices.
And what I needed was to people and there were two ways of going
at it. I can either pretend it was
night try and pretend, it was 1958 and we all turn up in in
Suits, and, you know, kind of try and pretend to be the
people, or we admit that it's not anymore.
And we go with people who can deliver a script to an audience
through a microphone. Yeah.
And that was the way I went at it.
I didn't see any point at then, or now, in pretending to be
Peter Spike and Harry because they're dead.
And you can't and nobody can be them, nobody can be them.
But what you can do is demonstrate, if the Symphony
Orchestra is given Beethoven's Fifth to play and play it
really, really well. Then you can imagine Beethoven
himself would be pleased about that and the audience will enjoy
it just as much as Beethoven's original audience would enjoy if
I can put it in that rather weird accrued way.
Yeah. And so, I had the music, I had
sound effect, I had a script, well, I had a script sorts which
was basically I I assembled a collection of nuggets which I
thought would hang together and then pull minute and Brian
levison to writers. I've been working with on the
Russ Abbott show, who'd written TV stuff like the booze cruise
and the piglet files with Nicholas Lyndhurst.
Yes, remember that? Yeah.
Well, you know, two really strong comedy writers, who
understood the material, understood the concept of a gag
based humor. You know, it's an, it's not
going to be a mundo stuff it's going.
Be make people laugh on the punchline.
Yes gag. Yeah, they took the script and
Polished it up added, some wonderful lines, like in the
warm-up, about some David Beckham, be very upset, he
couldn't play blue bottle that was one of the, you know, sort
of stuff. We because of what I wanted to
do, was punched the script up a bit because when we did
flywheel, Michael Roberts would ad-lib, you know, in at moments
where it seemed right. So if a joke fell flat on its RC
would say that was a it's a very cat topical jogging.
I need 30 girls or whatever it was and the audience will laugh
at least a good ground shake. It was it was excellent Groucho.
He was wonderful. And the best gag he ever did was
when he and Chico was supposed to he and Frank Lazarus playing
chick. I was supposed to fall into a
pigsty and all the rest of the cast came in around them and
were doing Noises and Michael, who with Frank is Jewish.
It's just a quick. As a flash went to the mics that
here. Are we two nice Jewish boys?
Surrounded by ham and the rest of the other cars, run, it was.
I said at the end of the show has it was perfect.
And he said, what her mad, lib, I had to remind him.
He was so in the zone, wow, and that's what I wanted to achieve
with the Goon show. So what I did was I thought I'm
just going to go with two at two, actors to comedy.
Actors. I know.
Can't, I'm a gag. Get it into the mic and out to
the audience because doing radio comedy is like the Dam Busters.
You've got to skip the bomb on the mic and then have it land on
the audience in it can't stop at the mic and it can't go past the
mic and just hit the audience. You've got to get the The
Listener at home and the audience and I knew That Jeff
Holland could do that because Jeff has great timing.
He knows how to punch a gag. And I knew that Jeff was a Mad
King goon fan because we talked about it, when we were working
together, 10 years before on inside sash sash.
Yeah, yeah. Look at this.
What is it? It is you Lord ring in the same
pancreatitis region in the stomach.
See there you are. Talking to a half-digested bike.
Well time look we can talk about this but not here.
Let's go down to your place. It's quieter quick.
Let's take the emergency lift. And the other person means I
Sacha, we talked about the goons was was John Glover who mr.
Chumley Warner, if you remember that.
Yeah, yeah, the old Harry Enfield, Harry Enfield.
Carry punch me when he sings Me. And anyway, so I said, would you
do it? And I asked John to be Mike and
I asked Jeff to be Peter And it works, you know, it wasn't quite
the blue bottle of of Sellers and it wasn't quite the mini
banister of Milligan. But it was I needed to make the
room work on the night. So I got my cast, got the
script, got the band, also, sorry to drag you there but I
think I think if, if you'd like to say before, if you want
people just to come in and personate do impersonations, the
audience are going to spend most of time thinking all that really
does sound like Yeah, Peter Sellers doing blood not whereas
you don't want that, you want the audience to be concentrating
on the gags and the laughs. I think you get that thing where
you're listening hard for when it's going to stop being as
good. You know if you've got someone
who's really uh yeah Keith Wickham, someone who just can do
sellers brilliantly. But the thing is that that
wasn't a what was being asked for and secondly, if I was then
doing that, then I'd have a problem because I had to get
someone uncannily like Milligan and then Andy was Andy uncannily
enough like his dad, you know, it becomes his awful kind of
yeah, piling on of, it's like a Jenga that eventually it's going
to topple over because you cannot get that.
Yeah, so if you accept, you can't do that.
If you say, no, this is us doing this now.
Not them doing it, then you're immediately making it more
viable as an end product. And then what you're saying is,
so what We have here is this, you know, going back to the
Manhattan Project analogy increasingly shaky analogy of
the scripts, plus the band, plus, the performers, plus, the
sound effects in the script written in by Spike and Larry
Stevens, who I think a couple of bits had, you know, some Larry's
working, that's either going to reach nuclear fission or isn't.
But that's what we find out on the night and And the other
thing I did was, I spent a long time preparing the sound
effects. I sound designed all the effects
myself trying to use some original stuff using their the
brand new clean. Wish I had discovered, you know
inventing a bit of a new blood knock stomach type effect, you
know sometimes taking a classic affect him, a bit of fun with it
and then turning up at the playhouse on Sunday, March the
whatever it was in 2001 and turning.
Lunch time to do the table, read with the cast and with Becca
Wilfredo, acosta's wife, Becky, Becky Nicholson on sound
effects. On the stage, I always always
have spot effects visible because it's, yes, that's fun to
see someone do it. So we've got this bloody big
theater, I've invited Jim Moya Leslie.
Douglas Norma fans, Spike Harry Myra Ha, they've all been
invited and Spike spike in hair over both not well, so couldn't
come. So I'm like cursing, my luck and
then normo didn't turn up and there's like and then Jim didn't
turn up a nosy dinner. So we had this sort of row of
empty seats at the very front of the, of the, of the audience for
the show, which was kind of heartbreaking because because
these were people who if they saw what we done would realize
it worked, but Was later on. I, I'm jumping ahead.
We arrived at the Paris, we do the table, reading dressing room
back, and I'm thinking, is this gonna work?
Is this gonna work? I do not know if this is going
to work, and then the band turned up with John.
Now, this was the first time I'd been with John, since we've gone
and raided the music library. And we went into, you know, the
band got set up on stage and so on and so forth.
And there's 22 piece, we've got, you know, the five reads five.
Fire. I think it was for each of
trombones brass Rhythm Section additional Rhythm and a harpist,
I think. Wow.
Wow, that's okay, yeah. Anyway and then they did the
bank or playing through the cues sight, reading the cues and you
know that it's that gobsmacking moment you realize how good a
true professional musicians really are because I'm a, you
know, I'm a drummer or Ramona perhaps, I should say.
And these guys just holy smoke and they played the blood knock.
I think it's the blood, not fame, and I was watching them
feeling very emotional and I turned around to find Jeff
Holland in tears, behind me, and we're both in tears because
we've you're in the room with this Barrel now and yeah.
But but and it's and it's there in the room.
It's moving the air around you. In High Fidelity.
And it was, that was the moment where I thought, I think we
might have this. I think we might have this.
Yeah, yeah and then we did the tech run and and Becky was
sliding in all the sound effects and John Whitehall, the late
great, brilliant, John White Hall in the mobile recording
truck outside, they give us the Pace mobile who I cannot praise
to highly as one of the genius Studio managers who you know,
for if only people Recognize their work.
The way they do. The Goon show would realize how
good these people were. John putting it all together, in
the truck with the pre-recorded effects and so on.
And there are an the band on stage and then the guys come on
and we were her stuff. And I got a friend Lizzie
Glassboro, who's an opera singer, who's a trained, opera
singer to come, and do take me back to Vienna for the for the
opening. And, and, and the thing about it
was I had to get it all on stage, the opening of thing, is
it? The opening of anything is a
really important part of it and I knew I had to, this was really
interesting, how the hell do I get the goons on stage?
Then I know they're not the goons but it's the Goon show.
And what I need to do is hit this audience with something
that totally says this, is it? This is a fully fueled Death
Star. We have built here.
And, and so, I came up with the idea of doing it.
Medley of the goons songs. And so I took the original songs
and edited them together, I sent it John.
And I said, could you, you know, could you do an arrangement for
this like this? And he said, yeah sure it is
yeah Jordy. Yeah, and so and that's what I
thought I would do. So, so the first thing that
happened at of everything was, there was this big thing and I
knew I wanted to open it with the big band opening to I'm
walking backwards Christmas. Hmm.
Because that is one of the best big band cues I've ever heard in
my life and yeah me too. That bad ass anyway.
Well, you know, we did the tech run with the band and we
couldn't get we had Lance Ellington singing because
obviously read passed on and we couldn't get Max geldray because
he was too old to fly over. So we got a guy called Harry
pitch, who Harry? Somebody said We did the heat
did the harmonica on the Navy lock but I don't think he did so
I'm not Harry was sweet guy. Sweet guy.
And he had dots for crazy. Rhythm he'd ever played it twice
the same way but bless him. It was he was still in there.
We did the tech. Run went okay.
Went had a beer around the corner, came back audience
started coming in and it was the weirdest audience service in
your life. So you get Stirling Moss comes
in and then Martin Chambers the drummer with the pretenders with
Chrissie Hynde and and then Barry Cryer and Dick.
Vosburgh of course, yeah, embarrasses are Dirk.
We've come to bury you, not to praise you.
You busted us, he's goes off to the bar and then my mom came in
and neighbors. And my wife Leslie, bought a
little boys and so on and so forth.
And I'm just thinking, oh my God, I hope this.
I hope it works. And then Steve punt walks in
with Mitch been. So, you know, and they're kind
of, you know, you know, you've made so there to support you.
But they're also interested to see if you fall flat on your
art. And so, and so, we did the show.
Show. And what I did was I rigged it
so that the main tab was down. So we just had three mics down
stage on the on the very front of the stage.
So all you saw were the curtains, shut in three minutes,
nothing else. So the audience in the room did
not know anything other than they were three microphones.
And we were doing a gun show and I came out on stage and I did
this warm-up which was really way too long, but I wanted to
thank people and I wanted to sort of heart back to John brows
Warner warm-up for the last goon.
Shovel. Yes.
So, you know, there were Aspects of that as well.
And of course, all my thanks. You know, want to thank Norma
and Spike and how Jim Moore, and there's no one there.
The front row is empty and that hurt because I thought, oh, we
put so much into this, and yeah. Anyway, and then, you know, I
said now, no one can recreate goons think of this as a
genetically, modified tribute band and the god, laughs.
And then I said, and if you're still wondering what we're going
to be doing here or something like that.
I said, here's what. It's all about and I walked off
stage and as I walked off stage, Steve Springfield in the wings
pulls madly on the tabs to get them up and the Band hits this
bad at all. And it was just electric because
the whole audience sort of sat back in their seats.
As if as if we put an acceleration on the thing it's
like a Milligan gang really and this band hit it and then they
you know the guys came on with with Is he doing there?
Take me back to the Anna and all of that.
And I'm just, it flew it just flew and I cannot that the CD is
as good as I could get it in terms of, you know, sounding
really edgy and on it and energetic and so on.
But really you had to be there. And it was that was the thing.
It we recreated the Manhattan Project of Comedy.
And it bloody worked. And what I really was sad about,
was that Spike wasn't there to see how all the ingredients he
put together worked. Still worked with it with a
really, really good bad and so on and but he heard it
afterwards, he heard it afterwards and he was he Norma
told me he threw it. He was thrilled.
He really really loves lovely. Yeah.
Who is that? Street address Naval often the
Crowsnest? Able Seaman Echols.
Why is he wearing a cloth cap morning could fishnet stockings
and a line called? Don't think we'd let him go up
there. Naked do here.
Mr. Prime minister Sia, as a messenger apology.
And Percy. But wait, wait game.
He returns. But not for long King ethelbert
rallied his subjects for the defense of their country, men of
North Hill have no fear. Isn't that your king will lead?
You will raise my sword in the Forefront of your drinks.
King, William King will know abdicate.
Does the prisoner have something to say yes?
Anything else. No, thank you.
Has the court reached a decision?
I will buy you a plastic surgeon.
No, I'm flesh and Bone like everyone else.
And years afterwards, Jeff had a party for like his umpteenth
year and Showbiz and it was just, you know, friends and
relations. And David Croft and Jimmy Perry
were there and lots of Heidi. Hi folks.
And and all of that and lets you know, invited and and I said,
hello, this is lovely of you but we doing here, he said, you gave
me the happiest single day I've ever had in the theater in my
life and I'm in a show and I mean, you know, doesn't get
better. And that does it really know
cause he made sure when you he comes on goon pod, he might say
to you, can't bloody Duke. What maybe says that everybody
works with, you know what mind you would have been a much
bigger party if but a couple of. But if I can finish this story
briefly. Yeah, sure.
Because I carry this in my heart every day going again, I loved
doing it so much and I'm so proud to not only be One of the
last producers to work with Spike on a live show because he
came to do a fly wheel size to and flywheel.
Yes. In fact to ship flywheel charge
from flywheels and was great. But also to actually have
produced, the Goon show, which is, you know, a real one with,
with all the bells, and whistles.
Yeah. And afterwards.
I'm I said to, I went to see Norma a few weeks later and I
said, look, you know, we could do this.
You know, we could do the gun show and she, she was friends
with Bill kenwright, the theater, a are Maria, and she
sent him the thing. And that the type of the thing
and told him what I'd done, you know, she wasn't there but she,
you know, she related or and that Christmas Christmas 90
twistmas 2001. He was advertising goon again,
is the Goon show that are full goon show with Orchestra at
Windsor. The They are all produced by
Dirk and, you know, all of this and Norma and all of this and it
was going to and that I didn't know was happening.
No one told me that my neighbor came around with a windsor
theater. All booklet saying look, you
know, with a band to rival while he starts and the holy shit.
He's, you know, taking the bait anyway, long story short, it
didn't happen and it kept on not happening for the next ten years
or so. And I When I rewrote the idea of
the show three or four times, you know, pitching the theater
to Norma wrote a one-act play about grafton's attic, which
then morphed into the second half, which was a classic goon
show, then the idea of presenting classic goon shows,
you know, as per. But but but never, you know,
never in. Costume or anything like that.
This was going to be. We are now in whatever year it
was doing these Classics grips. The way they were designed this
is never going to be dressing people up.
Yes, win fat suits to be hairy or nonsense like that. 10 years,
15 years went by nothing was happening and I think Andy cecum
and I had one last stab at trying to put it on about five
years ago when we were talking to people about doing it on the
Edinburgh Fringe. And the thing was As soon as you
do that the same will who can you get to be in it?
And say, well and he seek and, you know, the detailed come on,
can't we have Bill Bailey or Eddie?
Is that, you know. Yeah.
And it's like, no, that's not the point.
That's not the point. This the the Goon shows the star
of this I mean now. Yeah, and Andy who's brilliant?
You know, is saying this is what deep in my heart if I could do
and I know exactly what I would do now as well.
And it would be basically Call it, the Goon show in concert
because it would have to have the music.
The music absolutely has to be in there.
Mmm, so I'm copywriting that, anyone who hears this, you're
under NDA, the Goon show cause, but I think that's how I would
do it and you present basically, you know, kind of like a script
that hangs together through to harms and you have a bloody big
band up there and you do it, right?
And And you don't compromise. Of course, that's too expensive
to do because, you know, live music cost money.
But that would be the way that would be, the only way I could
do it, having done it that way once before.
So it'll never happen. But that was the night that we
realized that what Spike and Peter and Harry and benteen back
in the day and all those producers Peter.
Eat and John. Now, Charles Chilton, what they
did was, they put together something, which is pretty much
Invincible e. Bulletproof As Long as You
Follow the ingredients, closely. Yes dude.
Just very quickly. You want to talk about?
How Coon the oh yeah sure sure sure.
Yeah yeah yeah. So what you know kind of like
it's been hit have been a long time since I have been near any
Milligan material. But for my own Pleasure anyway,
and I have a little production company called perfectly normal.
I don't do a lot through it but when, you know, there were three
or four of us who kind of a directors of it, and when we
have a job that could be submitted to the BBC we do and
and in Billings the excellent writer and actor had the idea of
adapting pakkun and pakkun. You know, has been one of my
favorite books since forever and it didn't occur to me Really
that it needed adapting because I knew that there was the vinyl
version that Spike and folks did in the 70s.
Was it something? Yeah.
One of them. Yeah but I knew oh and I went to
see there was a production of it at the theater unless the square
and and I kind of came away, slightly dissatisfied.
But everybody worked really hard and someone wrote about some of
the gags is very hard to do the scale of that closing.
See Sequence. The Big Boy Scout concert in the
old people's home. And so when Ian came in with
this script, the idea of doing the adaptation, it was like, oh
yeah, let's do this, let's do pakkun.
And and then it was a case of, you know, you came up with the
script which was great and it really managed to boil down the
best bits the book. But then who the hell to get in
it? And that was, when the stroke of
Genius was, I don't know if it was the in or Dave morally, you
produced. It said about Barry Cryer and
it's like, well yeah, home and dry.
Yeah, yeah, back back, Uncle Bears.
So that was sorted and then, you know, who could we get it?
And I've worked a fair bit with Ed Byrne.
He came in on the six hitchhiker series and and was great, and
he's a huge Enthusiast, but many things including Spike and Ed
was coming in and then who else can we get?
And we got Paula, McCullen, you know?
Yeah, who wouldn't want Pauline for anything Irish because she's
not actually, she's a brilliant actress Iowa and and just lovely
Carson and Jane Milligan spikes daughter, who are who I've been
friends with for years. But finally got to work with.
She told me she's been on this. Are she's a fine fine.
Fine person. Hmm.
And and so we had pakkun we did pakkun and it was a Real
challenge because I wanted that ending to be as big as I could
get it. The whole of that stupid concert
with the de Dion, engine pumping out fumes.
And what have you and the whole business of the of the made of
the of the IRA guys. And the made going up and down
in the elevators and just the complete Madness of it.
It was a real it was a real Challenge and and I was really
proud of it. The end of it.
I felt I felt. Yes I think we've done It
justice. It was the audio movie of pakkun
I wanted to make and I think we managed it.
Listen, that's a week. We could, we could uh I could
sit and talk to you for hours. You've been very generous with
your time Derek and you've not long recovered which still still
what you still sort of suffering the after-effects of covid.
Yeah. Weird cramps and stiff neck from
hell. Yeah.
Really stupid. But I drain frogs better.
I'm good. Good.
As I say, you know, I'm indebted to you for coming on.
I'd love to have talked in detail about, or at least talked
about things like, inside, Sacha things like night class, which I
enjoyed. And also what I'd love to have
done talk more about flywheel but maybe, you know, being
around to some time if you run out of more interesting.
People I'm happy to come back. All right, I'm gonna hold you to
that. I look forward to it.
So I looked in lovely chatting and I hope you get something
editable. That's it.
Thanks again to Dirk. Thank you for listening.
If you haven't heard the show before and want to go back and
listen to the rest, there's at least 60 in the archive.
They can be found in the usual places, iTunes Spotify Stitcher
and and all the rest. I will be back next week with a
show about a particular film. I won't say which one yet, but
please tune in, or download or whatever it is.
You do. You don't shoot in podcasting if
it can say. Anyway, as I said, thank you
again for listening, see you next week.
Week. Bye.