Yeah, James laughs, Tommy Cooper, as I could almost see
the fares or a dream. You were script associate on
that last but one series The Frankie Howard show.
And did you have to write all the illusion RZ?
Well, we didn't get as far as discussing semantics, you didn't
like any of the material I suppose.
It wasn't the smartest move, giving him.
Shut that door as a catchphrase. No wonder you were the The only
writer in television history of Frank, never chase around the
dressing rooms and get desperate the Hat.
You ought to be getting this down on paper.
It there's a show in it. Yeah, the the best comedies
always about losers. He's called Des para.
Desperate is a comedy writer you know makes anyone laughs.
Yes go on there. Go over there and write it down.
Yeah you have it. The nothing.
No, thank you. You can have it for nothing.
Oh can I have it for nothing to make sure?
Hello and welcome to goon pot. My name is Tyler Adams this
week. It's a slight departure one of
my all-time favorite radio. Comedies is the tremendous Ed
redden's week which has been playing on radio.
For since I think about 2005 its titular character is I would
argue one of the greatest British comedy creations of the
last 20 years or so. Ed Reardon is described as an
author pipe. Like a consummate Fair Dodger
and master of the abusive email, the man who co-created the show
with Andrew Nichols and plays Ed himself.
Is my guest this week. Christopher, Douglas who I
wanted to have on the show for a long, long time and he finally
agreed after weeks months of badgering by me.
The thing is crystal is not a massive fan of the goons,
although he likes them enough but he was King to come on and
talk to me about radio comedy in general, including the guns.
And obviously, I was interested in finding out more about his
own involvement in the medium of radio comedy.
It's a great conversation and the we're actually a couple of
moments when the normal genial tones of Christopher gave way to
very slight snatches of the convergently Ed.
So I hope you enjoy the chat. No, no, I'm not here to blow
smoke up your fundament, but I've been a big fan of Ed
reardon's week since since the early days, really, I mean I
won't, I'll just tell you a little story because I associate
first listening to egg redden's week with my son, my son, who is
now 16, when he was very little, so would have been sort of
2007-2008, something like that. When I would put him to bed,
read him a story. And but I was not allowed to
leave the room. Room until he was asleep.
And he would know he would hear the slightest, you know, for
tried to move out, the room surreptitiously, he would hear
and he would be instantly awake, you know?
So I had to wait until he was in a deep Slumber.
So to you do need, that could be very boring.
So what I would do is I would have my headphones and I would
listen to episodes of a dragon and it was fantastic.
But I would. Yeah, I'd have to study for my
Chuckles. Of course, I was going to say, I
thought you were going to go on to say it was ideal listening
and Circumstances are very unlikely to not felt like, wow,
I'm glad you said, can I just say Spanish at the last moment
in my favor? Yeah, well, I was bigger doing a
barbecue the other day. We had a brief window of
sunshine last week and I decided to have a barbecue for Mother's
Day and I was listening to one of your episodes.
Actually, what I was doing and I laughter, I'm not again, this is
not meant to sort of, you know, make you blush, but I loved out
loud. It was an older episode The one
where Ed is on an archaeological dig.
Oh yeah. And he thinks he's in with a
chance with the the the leader of the Dig and he nips to the
gents he goes to the vending machine, Mega pleasure, diabolo
nothing in corduroy. I see let us look at something
about he put He was on an archaeological dig and he'd
found the you know, a Roman or Saxon coin or something.
And yet that was the only Money. He had if we put it in the
vending machine is worth, sort of 50,000 pounds or something.
It's, that's right, that's right.
One of the things obviously was doing research in terms of your
career and I appreciate that. Ed is a more recent sort of
success, recent relatively speaking.
But you've been, oh, do you need in line for 30-odd episodes,
which I didn't realize? I don't think it's quite as many
as that. But it, I think I was in for
series. Yes.
For From 1977 to 80 when they're when it ended, I think.
Yeah. And yes it was but I mean it was
in black and white when it began and it moved to color by the
time I joined. But it was, it was pretty
popular, Sunday night viewing, I think and particularly so in
Scandinavia and there was another place.
They click Bulgaria. That's right there.
Either they didn't know whether they liked it or whether, you
know, they just have to have it, but it was very popular, there
was the misery of my childhood because because I grew up in New
Zealand in the late 70s, early 80s.
And it was, it was a, it was shown on TV and said, and my
mother, my late mother was obsessed by it.
She, it was her favorite program and I can even to this day, I
can remember the theme music very distinctly because I wasn't
because we, you know, one TV in the The house, if the annealing
line was on I couldn't watch, whatever was on the other side.
So we had to watch that and I think I think my mother was
rather taken with so then Peter Gilmore's side-whiskers Gilmore?
Yes, yes. He big heart from yeah, hmm.
So that's why I drop that in. Also, you read Pender's Fenn.
Yes. Yes that was a little bit
before. In fact, pain is friend was the
first job I did for the BBC? It was 1972.
I think and It by the late, very great Allan Clarke and written
by David Rankin. Great David Rankin and it was
one of those things that in those days you could sort of
sneak through the system and get these rather challenging pieces.
Made a very distinguished producer called David Rose was a
master at getting that done and they would often be done through
Birmingham. And so that's how Pender's Fen
was done. They managed to get it somehow
passed The Gatekeepers and it is the most extraordinary piece of
work. There's there's a movement now
it's sort of comes Under The Heading of folk horror
remembered. So that's only that terms.
Only just come into existence it was but it didn't seem to be
like anything else to me. And yes, it was, it was sort of
about everything and I'm Most strange and memorable piece of
work. And the Whitechapel Gallery, had
a showing of it, I think the year before last and which is a
with an audience and they asked me to take part as one of the,
not many people still going who were in it.
And and I said, well, I shouldn't really be on the only
had about sort of ten lines. Or something.
So I shouldn't really be under the panel but they said, well,
we're in that case. Would you interviewed every drug
kit? So I was very honored and of
course, absolutely delighted to do that because I'm, you know,
such a big fan of his work. And so David rivkin and Spencer
Banks who played the lead. Yes.
Dear friend, I sort of interviewed the pair of them at
the Whitechapel gallery and it was it was quite a quite a
amazing event, really, it was a lot of people turned out to see
this. Masterpiece curiosity, it's a
remarkable piece of work, bring it up to date.
You want the tenants would award last year for Tristram Shandy.
Yes, yes, I was a bit surprised they make that as well because
it was conceived as a sort of, because Tristram Shandy is is a
sort of satire in part on publishing as it exists.
Stood in the mid-eighteenth century and you know it's novels
were quite still quite new then. Yes.
And in fact many people thought there was only one really which
was Don Quixote and there were some other ones but you know the
feeling was they would not not much good really.
And so if you if you wrote a novel you either have to refer
to Don Quixote or honor it in in some way more.
Um, what Laurence sterne did would sort of completely take
the piss out of novels and the any and Publishing and fictional
authorship. So I thought, when I came to do
the play, well, it's so huge. This this novel, you can't
really put it into single radio slot, unless you make it, you
have the satirical victim as it were, is, is Radio rather than
mid 18th century Publishers and fiction.
So it was set out on radio. So, I mean, not surprisingly.
It was quite difficult to persuade them to do it, but they
said yet at the third time of asking, they said, yes.
And so we did it. It was quite difficult to make
because, of course, it was right in the middle of writing.
The start of the lockdown recordings.
When there's the mechanics of it were really quite sort of
makeshift. And we're, you know, we're all
sort of working that way for the first time, I'm sorry.
It would be, I mean how did you do that?
Because the thing I read most of Tristram Shandy years ago, the
thing I remember and I think most people would remember, is
the black page s that had actually, that's right.
As you get that over on radio. Well I did try but of course
silence on radio. He's it's not that great and
even if you use sort of acknowledge that it still didn't
but the I did I suppose I satirize the idea of a radio
show that had nothing to say sometimes so they sort of ground
to a halt a bit but that was the nearest.
I got to the blank page. Yeah.
No. It's very enjoyable to do and in
fact that that sort of rather more what I'm what I've been
doing in recent years is is drama and sort of one-off things
and less of the The sitcom's because as well as Ed there
were, there were a couple of other side Beauty's Britain
which we did needed three series of that.
And there's another one that was being going for a long time, is
about this. Dreadful cricketer called, Dave,
pod more, mmm. Yep.
I mean, still, you know, it's always still doing Ed and but
I've sort of also managed to get the one-off plays going
adaptations. Yeah.
You've been working on something recently visited you in a
position to say whether it is. Or is that still?
Yes. We're gonna do it quite soon.
I think it's an adaptation of a novel by George gissing, called
the odd women. And it's, and I suppose an early
feminist novel written in 1892, the two of the main characters,
run a secretarial school at the time that there was business was
being carried out for the first time using type written
documents. So on not only that but you
could do the cables under the Atlantic allows you to do
business for the first time. It's so there was this boom in
employment opportunities for stenographers typists.
And a lot of them were women. So there were there was this new
area of work for women, okay? And and and of course you know,
a lot of people were against it. A lot of men didn't like it and
women were thought to underprice men.
So they were they were working for less and therefore doing me
now to jobs and so, it's quite a controversial subject at the
time. So guessing he You his sister's
ran a school, so he knew quite a bit about how that worked.
And also, he knew various prominent women who were women,
suffrage, campaigners mmm-hmm. And so, the two things came
together, okay? It's to love stories to parallel
love stories. It's very good.
And it's funny as well, but guessing because he has these
rather Grim endings and the video Do end grimly?
Yes. Is this reputation of being very
depressing, right up. It's only the anything's, really
the do. There's a grin the books.
Themselves are full of humor and and he's very, you know, a very
great writer sole obviously mean gnu grub Street contains the
characters Edwin Reardon and is it Jasper Mulvane, The Jasper
more than that. That's right.
I don't think we spent him quite correctly in In the bedridden
series. But what you have is a long,
long time ago, I think, more than 30 years ago, that Andrew
Nichols, my co-writer and very old friend.
He said, have you read new grabs it and I had.
And, and so he put me on to it and then I don't know 20 years
went by or something and we're doing a column and row and I
were doing a column in the guardian, had a real, a weekly
column written by this Dreadful cricketer fictional.
Editor. Who Dave pod more?
Yeah. And we've been doing it for
quite a while about about 10 years I think and the guardian
said would we like to think of a literary equivalent of the
Dreadful Dave pod more? And I failed very self-important
failed writer so we came up with a peaceful then we you know went
back to the office and smashed out sort of 750 words of jokes
and we gave him and we Called him red because we didn't, you
know, refer to your grub Street in any other way, just just
called him in Reardon. And so, we sent this piece to
the guardian who were very, very enthusiastic about the idea
initially, and we sent them this piece and then heard nothing
back. So we wrote them and said, you
know, is it? He said something you'd like to
change, you know, we're quite used to rewriting.
So, you know, do say, if you wanted to be different and I'm I
just couldn't get an answer out of them so we've thought, you
know, it often happens. It's actually yeah.
Usually when there's no answer it is because people it's not
people to trying to be rude, really?
It's just that they can't think what to say and they don't want
to come across as either cruel or stupid so they don't say
anything for you. Yeah, it's remarkably common
anyway, we didn't worry too much about it and, you know, got on
with other things. And then there was a there was a
Christmas party at the BBC and Producer young producer will
Simon Nichols sidled up to us and said, have you gotten a
thing? And so the bottom draw creaked
open at came this this piece written supposedly by failed
writer, Ed ridden, and he said, put, you know, do that as a
treatment and I'll put it in and they immediately liked it and we
were I mean we were we were on the air within within a year.
I think just over the years but it was very quick Yeah, because
I Was preparing for this. I agonize for about an hour or
so, to try and Describe Ed to people who obviously haven't
heard the show, but I was trying to draw comparisons legs.
So lazy, isn't it? Trying to draw comparisons with
other? Classic British comedy
characters them which Edward no doubt dismiss as an asinine
Pursuit anyway did the best I could come up with it and I
don't know how you feel about this.
It is, is it sort of archetypal, opportunistic, failure?
These sort of often on the make these living off past glories,
he's often railing against the system, which is a little bit
like, bit like victim. Drew and space in some respects,
but it's also very self-aware and aware of his failings and
quite open about his faults and his vices can be quite Shameless
and he's, you know, he's always pinching food and stuff like
that from functions. Yes, I think that's right.
And actually, it's very useful that that he's so open about it
and useful to us as writers. And, and also another thing,
which we didn't really spot for quite a few years until Somebody
pointed it out, he has no self pity and it never occurred to
us, but he's absolutely right. Having no self-pity is quite
appealing because we all stood yet, most of us all killed,
sorry for ourselves. But I think he, you know, with
Comic characters that run a long time, you need several things to
go for you. They the character needs to be
in conflict with the world, with the physical world and with The
people and their immediate circle.
Hmm. And also they sort of need to be
in conflict with themselves to some extent that they keep
repeating a pattern of behavior, that prevents them getting what
they want. And you don't absolutely have to
have those things, but if you want to write a lot of episodes,
it's very useful. Hmm.
And we sort of hit on that by accident, I think the, you know,
he Was, he was his Own Worst Enemy and you know enemy had
many other enemies as well and that seemed to be quite useful
and so we don't we don't really run out of plots.
I mean, people might get fed up with it and then we might be
able to do it anymore, but we don't really run out of ideas
because we've we've got such a clear idea of the character or
all we really need to do is put him in a Ugly topical situation
or there might be something that's that's happened to Andrew
or myself that we recognize as a potential story.
But mainly we do we just read the papers.
Yeah, I don't know if you've read Martin Ames has the
information Which was no, I have no mid 90s.
It was the book that he think he got the biggest advance in
history at that time and he managed to get new teeth as a
result of his teeth. Yes, I'm is that?
Yes, yes. But this, the central character
is this failed, author. He's a 40 year old book.
Reviewer editor of a very strong.
Is he is? He the ghost writer is he?
Yes, that. Yes, and he's desperately
jealous of his more successful. For, yes, for my friend, who's
who writes books? But they're very fluffy and he's
been a phenomenal success in the literary, world for writing,
what Richard toll thinks is drek essentially.
Yeah. And so, I see aspects of Ed in
that. By the way, I noticed that there
is a there was a book published in 2014 called who would fardels
bear? No really.
Yes. Novel by someone could send our
motto fairly. Well I, if I, yes, I supposed to
feel sorry for a moment. She probably sue him just
because people don't know that. That is, that was, that was Ed's
11 brush with success? Yes.
Yes, he got turned into a film. Yes, yes, and that, that's how
we, yeah, but I mean if it's not, yeah, the failed writer is
not is not a new idea by any means.
And That will it Edwin written the anti-hero, you grab Street,
you know, that was 1891. That was, that was pretty.
Yeah. Oh absolutely Laura sister.
Yeah. Wednesday rather like Graham
Greene working. His passage by running guns from
Nicaragua to Liberia or Spain or wherever it was.
I too used my native cunning to Hitch a lift back from tring.
I realized that in order to further my promising
relationship with dr. Elaine Drysdale, I was playing a
dangerous game, weaving, a web of Deceit by claiming To perform
a one-man show about Graham Greene rather than merely
blowing a jug for the greater good of jazz Mill vein and I
wouldn't even be doing that. If I didn't get my teeth fixed
Pronto, there's no more chewing gum either.
I'll go rat. Of course, Martin Amis.
Only has to write his name on the steamed up.
Bathroom window of his Tuscan Palazzo for some
twelve-year-old, publisher to offer, him half a million quid
to get a set of bespoke Choppers.
But out here in the real world, in order to earn the price of an
easily. Double meal, a writer has to
lecture insubordinate, pensioners, every Thursday at
the University of the third age. So yes, it's a radio comedy,
obviously been a large part of your of your career.
And I wanted to just to talk to you about, obviously, we've
talked about your part in it, but I want to talk to you about
your thoughts, in terms of radio comedy in general, find out what
you think works, what doesn't work what I did?
I revolutions or Eeveelutions there have been in the medium
over. The last, I suppose, if we, if
we exclude, it, Mario in the wartime years and the mostly
sort of variety based comedy of the 40s, You could argue that
sort of well, British radio comedy began in the 50s, really?
Yeah, I think that's, I think that's right.
Yes, I think there was a, there was a turning point after the
war really. And I, I think we always like to
divide the country. Don't we realize that?
And it sort of seemed to me that the country did divide a bit.
You were either hand Cool, all the goons in there.
I'm sure there were lots of lots of people who enjoyed birth, but
I think also what was interesting what sort of fired
that new wave of scripted comedy was the during the war there
were there were these entertainment organizations
there was Seema and then enter that was sort of trying to do
legitimate. Theater and then because of the
need for entertainment anywhere of any kind just to take
people's minds off things and Vera Lynn couldn't go
everywhere. They came up with this idea
called stars in battle dress and which which enabled which used
regular serving soldiers so it meant they could they the
entertainment could take place sort of right up to the
Frontline. Yeah.
Which answer toes weren't able to get that far.
You know? It was thought to be too
dangerous but stars in battle dress, you know, these were
actually fighting soldiers at the time so a lot of the
entertainment was incredibly chaotic but it was out of that
not not out of it encircle seamer that the really big names
of post-war comedy came. Yeah, you know people who It
learned sort of under fairly difficult circumstances to write
and perform. And even though it wasn't really
a movement as such it did, they did sort of share this, this
sort of disrespectful impertinent kind of wild
quality, and it wasn't really an attack on the on the officer
class. Although it's in some ways.
It was But it have a kind of rebellious streak and I think
there were three. There were three shows that that
happened after the war or maybe started during the war that was
sort of based based on the services.
So there was one called Navy mixture, I think that's right.
Navy mixture. And then the Army one was called
Stand easy. And then there was the RAF one,
which I think is better known called much binding in the
marsh. Yeah, and The even though the
the war was over that, that that was thought to represent three
important aspects of the post-war experience that the pre
Services. Yes.
And even though it was always this sort of undercurrent of
impertinence. The targets often the sort of
stupid officer class. And is that really struck a
chord with audiences at the time because The world was changing.
I mean the irony was that the people who came out of stars in
battle dress and then turn professionals as Comics were up
and writers starting to work for the BBC.
They then found that the officer class was running the BBC as
well as. Yeah.
Stuck with this and they had to deal with them again.
Well Harry. See could just on that Harry.
Seeking tells a story of he his commanding officer at one point
was Phillips lesser. Who did he ever spoke to him
during his command was to basically give them a
bollocking? I believe?
And then several years later post-war when how he's doing
variety Phillips lesser, I'm not sure it's easy MC or presenter
or announcer, or something. He's in some way.
I know the name and I can't quite.
Yes, I can't quite remember what it was.
Yeah. And I'm going to sound really
ill prepared saying this, but no, but he's, he's presenting
Harry seek him on the Radio, I think and described him as my
old army friend and Harry said, he sort of came out and kind of
gave him a wry Smile as if to say, you know.
Yeah. Right mate.
Yeah yeah. Yeah.
He wrote about it. Didn't he wrote a novel about
about that period of his life. What was it called?
Heresy camera. Took twice brightly.
I think. Yes he did.
Yes, that's right. Yes.
Yeah. And it's got a long time since I
really be there. It's sort of Just about that
that world of digging around and staying in digs and that, you
know, that, that sort of that rather Grim time in some ways.
He yeah, yes. But he was actually quite
successful. Quite yes, please.
Yeah. Yeah.
Because he was making the equivalent of nearly four grand.
Today's money a month at the Windmill.
Yeah. But he was doing six days.
It was it six. Six shows a day.
Six days a week. Something like that.
Yeah. Yeah shaving shaving here but
that there's a very good book. By Barry took called laughter in
the air about those years. Hmm and we you you mentioned
that, you know, the money he was earning and that he I'm sure,
you know, do his research and he said that Peter Sellers was
earning He quit a week I think in about nineteen fifty-one 52
and that's a lot of money isn't seen happen, seems the and a BBC
producer. So the guy who's producing the
shows he was in, would have earned seven hundred pounds a
year. So that was a different kind of
relationship. What what we have now, which is
the reverse in the, you know, staff, Adduser the BBC and many
many times. What?
What the writers? Yeah for Mirza.
So it's just a completely different world and it it is
much more sort of producer LED rather than Talent lead.
Is it was perhaps in those days when he thought he was.
I mean, I'm sure I'm sure there's some exaggeration on
that figure, that seems ludicrous money to be making.
Maybe 700 was a 750 a month, maybe they'll be fine.
Well, No. I mean it's about item any just
quoting from this book but there was you know radio was was the
big medium, wasn't it in those days.
So it it that was where the big money was he was he was never
not working from the middle of 48 when he began on Showtime
which was his first radio appearance, it just snowballed
his career is he just he was on everything to the point where he
was like As Gordon was for a period of time, you know,
everywhere producers were sort of being told, you know, lay
off. You know, don't stop booking
sellers so much. Yeah, I mean, it mother ended
when Tommy handy died in 49 and then it was the atmos lot was
taken by raised a laugh, which was sellers first.
It wasn't as first Ensemble comedy, but it was his first
regular Comedy series. Yeah, that he thought he was in
until what 54. I think it was on that.
Yeah, it's a tram for a long time.
Didn't it laughing? Yeah.
So you're not I mean I know you're not particularly huge
goon fan but you must have had some exposure to them Growing Up
doll. Despite oh yes I mean yes I was
probably just that. I remember them very very well
but probably it was repeats by them.
I think it fit didn't finish in. When did it finished 59 or
something? January 60. 60.
Yeah, yeah. So, I know, yeah, it's probably
a bit younger to to hear them live but they started repeating
them pretty much immediately I think and that, you know, I
remember it being on and but I, yes, I suppose.
I am very interested in the in the period And how that so came
to be made and It was irreverent in in it, you know, but not in a
sort of satirical way. Really work it in the way that
that perhaps Hancock was. But well, yeah, you say that one
of the things that I'm finding doing this podcast, is because
I'm relisting, because I used to listen to the goons as a
teenager. To an obsessive level to attend,
dangerously obsessive level and then I sort of eased off and
moved on to other things as I, as I left my teens, I'm now in
my late forties, and I've been reimbursing myself in the Goon
show and re-listening to the shows, but I've been relisting
to the fully restored versions where a lot of the deleted
material that had the edited versions of the shows were the
ones that were typically repeated or so.
Out to overseas radio stations and they would remove topical
references and racially insensitive references often or
they're not always. But it's amazing listening to
these fully restored shows how much topical stuff and how much
satirical stuff Spike and Larry and his other co-creators put
into the the shows, you know. Hello.
Calling satellites Egan. I beg of you.
A rocket is on its way to bring you down.
Hold on. I did some presenting for for
extra, you know them, they do a whole evenings of sort of
vintage comedy shows. Yeah.
And I found that this presenting job was actually quite a lot
more work than I thought it was going to be because I thought I
was just going to introduce the shows and then 28 minutes put my
feet up and then rise another link into the next show.
But some of these vintage comedies have to have so much
cut out of them that some of them were running at about 12
minutes. So I would have to make apps
that have 16 minutes and Lincoln So, I gave up absolutely
exhausted after doing about four of these for these nights of
vintage comedy. I'm not sure there was a
producer whose job it was to take out all the all the
contentious stuff and it was mainly goons and round the horn,
but those were the two shows that would that would cut, they
were over there, rather shows that were just they didn't
bother to write. Very, very much of a script.
So it sort of ended after about 20 minutes.
But the good, the certainly, the goons and round, the horn would
now have to have a great deal taken out.
I mean, they were woke times in other in other respects because
there was this thing called the green book, the BBC green book
with was a list of things that you weren't allowed to do.
And, you know, there are some of them are quite odd.
You know, things you, you weren't allowed to say, no
politics at all. You were never allowed to do any
impressions of of anyone you couldn't.
You couldn't do the things. You couldn't refer to like
lodges or commercial Travelers. Yes, that's right.
And you won't know how to use the phrase winter draws on know
exactly. Exactly.
And yes, yes, said nothing that sort of appeared to approve of
drinking. So you wouldn't be allowed to
say, let's have one for the road because it would encourage
alcoholism and and not only no jokes about politics, but you
couldn't have a politician on the show.
You couldn't have an MP on the show because it would, it would
be undignified for a member of Parliament.
To take part in the comedy show. So you got, I mean, I don't
suppose it was a problem that often, I mean, it would be now
because a lot of them peace appear on company chosen there.
But so you always have to have the permission of a person.
If you can do an impression of them is that pretty much ruled
it out. And but then there were things
suddenly the addition of it that I've got which is 1949 this
there was some good news because you could now say, Um, nylon and
zip and thermos, which I think the myosin.
Yes, sir. Boss prior to 1949.
That was that, you know, you just couldn't do that.
So, this is quite weird, only I interviewed you remember, the
great writer of the aldwych farce has been Travis.
Yes. Yes.
Yeah. And he said that and he knows
when he was working, you'd have to go To the Lord Chamberlain's
office to present your script and some you know retired
Brigadier General would make you change things.
You know. And then Travis said that he'd
there was a scene where somebody may be set in a sort of changing
room sports sports changing room, this scene and a bloke
went one of the characters went to get it.
So I'm just going to get a towel And the Lord Chamberlain's
office said, well you have to take that out page 48, what's
wrong with the towel and then, try to support what was wrong
with the towel as I said? Oh, come on, I was born
yesterday, you know, take it out.
So he said, all right, of course.
Yes. Okay, so what you know what have
happened in this guy's life that?
Yeah, made the reference to a towels.
That such an inflammatory think, maybe they were maybe as a
younger man, he was getting his bare buttocks, flicked by towels
in the dryer and it must be something on this night.
Yeah. Yeah.
That's it.
Yeah. I think you got it there.
Yeah. What are the things when you?
And I were communicating about coming, you coming on the show,
you made it. Fantastic point that I hadn't
thought about until you pointed it out.
Is you said that the 50s Just paraphrasing you in the 50s, was
the only decade in modern British comedy in which the
officer class didn't really figure.
Yeah. Yeah.
And they were they were sort of figures of fun, but it was just
this incredible outpouring of talent that came from serving
soldiers during the war that, you know, they kind of claimed
it became the territory. Yes, I suppose.
They were, it's not that it was all, it was all sort of working
class, knockabout comedy, but, you know, Of it was really
sophisticated. And if you think of mirror and
norden's work on take it from here.
Mmm. This is some of it was was
really quite literally and and because it went on for a rather
long time take it from here for people of my generation it the
keynote singing the theme tune, you know for take it from here.
It was slightly depressing sort of reminded you of sort of
overcooked lamb and crinkle cut carrots, you know that and but
actually when iI ghosted June Whitfield sorcerer biography and
she was in take it from here for ya many years.
And so I thought well I better get to grips with this show that
I've never really liked very much and I started looking at it
and reading the scripts and I thought this is so good and it's
it's it's clever and it's literary.
There's a clear Road leading to Monty Python of sort of literary
surreal. Mad humor, it would be even
though Buzz sort of, you're not Norden, were were part of that
generation of people who'd been in the, in the war they were
sort of, as they all did, they sort of Forge their own their
own cause Course, yes, they kind of get overlooked golden and
Simpson tend to get the the Kudos that perhaps, you were
Norden. Don't so much.
Yeah. Yeah.
But I was I was amazed when I was doing June Whitfield.
Hmm, autobiography, I've got some tapes of take it from here
and and I was but my stepkids who had very little interest in
radio, comedy is fit to say. I just love these ronon, F the
plums, yes. In, take it from here.
I thought these sort of cool Metropolitan kids laughing at
the gloves who Yeah, do you remember remember Bruce Forsyth
failed show in the late? 70s Called Bruce, has big night
out or something? Yeah.
And they did it again, then they did with but it wasn't June.
Whitfield was Patricia break, just a very yes.
That's right. Yeah, I think June was a bit
upset that they didn't ask her to do it and you know what?
Obviously quite a quite a bit of time has gone by and that's why
they got they got Somebody was the right age but actually I
think it would have worked better if they just died.
It was Dick badly. Still still alive in the center
but not sure. But you know they did it with
the carry-ons Barbara Windsor was playing, you know, playing
the the the Juve lead it you know, wanted to 50s happen but
that was part of the fun. Yeah.
So I think they actually missed the trick there with not not
bringing when they brought the guns back, not having June
Mimicry and her singing, you know, she's always remembered as
a sort of Terry Scott's feed, you know.
But I mean, she's absolutely brilliant.
She could dance. You could her sing some of the
records she made in the 50s. Absolutely wonderful singing
voice. And and the mimicry was
incredibly is incredibly skilled and all the voices she did on on
Take it from here. And it was mainly because
everybody loved The F Glam, the character that she played but
she did many many others, she just he based the character of
Earth on they had to get their had a cleaning lady her and her
mother and that was her voice and she's the woman never
realized. And she sustained in touch with
June and followed her career with interest and and
particularly the gloves and she She dropped around, so I love
that show. It's amazing.
You know, people to really talk like that.
I've met people who don't like that.
Oh, I know. Yeah.
Would you June was Jim's involved?
Briefly tangentially with the goons?
And that while she she appeared in the idiot weekly price
tuppence which was their first foray into television ITV, 1950s
6. Yeah.
Then don't know if you know about this just not long before
He died. Peter Sellers made a record
while he put out a record called seller's market which was one of
his you do comedy, LPS, and I'm not coming before his off the
back of that or it was around that time that he recorded a
song comedy song in the character of Fred Kite from.
I'm all right jack. So he was he was repressing that
character in 1979 and he had June Whitfield and the the Seek
was that it was June, Whitfield was playing Margaret Thatcher.
I think it was called something like what about the workers?
And it was just a satirical comedy song.
Okay, in June Whitfield does a very good Margaret Thatcher on
it, and it was due to go out was due to be released or it was due
to go out on the lp and then sellers had it removed and we
don't know exactly why. But the theory is that, that
just got into power and sellers was hoping for a Knighthood.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well she said she had a You
remembered it more clearly that maybe she said she has just had
a very nice time in Paris because she went out there to
record it and sellers wasn't ready.
So today's shopping and the next day, he wasn't ready so that day
so I see her husband Tim so she had to quite fuck better piece
of it. But I said I said, I said I said
into question about it so what was what you know, what was he
like? And then she would say was he
was a were right. I couldn't really do much with
that. Are you more of a Hancock fan?
Or did you not have a particular?
I asked I suppose. Yes, I sort of fell into doing
radio, comedy, really just threw my friendship with with Andrew
and then there's with Nick Newman.
And yes I'd always sort of worked in CS it really?
And and obviously as an actor in TV as well.
But so I didn't I didn't have a childhood where I was, I was
added Lee listening to all the latest video comedies and I
still don't really but I I'm I'm just interested in that in that
post war period because this new wave of comedy writers and
performers, I just think it's such an interesting time.
And, you know, after the in the 60s, when the gentleman from
Cambridge took over comedy, mmm, it all changed.
But there was this, this time in the 50s where it was, I don't
know, it was like sort of Shakespeare's time or something
when anybody could just write stuff and, you know, you didn't,
you didn't have to have gone to Cambridge.
You mentioned about came I know that Europe in Edinburgh, what
early 80s around the time of the first period, a award, I
believe? Yeah, we it was the first Perry
award and our show which is just a sketch show, cool, theatrical
digs. And we came second in the
Perrier award the, the winners were Stephen Fry and Emma
Thompson Hugh Laurie with their this sketch.
Joe and and we came second and the first prize was a week at
the new End theater in Hampstead.
And the second prize was really was two weeks at the new end.
Absolutely. So they did that.
We can we did, we did two weeks although I sort of came late to
it it because my, My parents, but my mother father and
stepfather were all in the same business.
And so I did, I was sort of immersed in it from quite an
early agent and my stepfather actually worked.
He was, he was a resident stage Manager At The Fortune theater.
Whether used to record the Hancock episodes, all right.
And so he worked on on many, dozens of Hancock radio shows,
right? And I are having lunch with him
once at the Nell Gwyn Pub in Drury Lane and he said, we were
just sitting on one of the sort of red velvet benches.
And he said, oh I remember sitting here in exactly.
Exactly this booth with with Hancock and golden and Simpson
when they were we used to do recordings and presumably, they
did them on Sunday because the theater was dark on Sunday.
I don't know. And I said what it what?
Oh god, I didn't know you never told me this.
What was it? Like, you know, what were they
like? What what what they talked about
and and he just said earlier, just moaned about money and that
was the one thing you didn't need to tell me because I have
just could have guessed that, but he also worked on the army
game and messmates. I think it was called, was the
Navy version of that. And I remember going to his
Studio singing, pouring a bucket of flour over someone's head.
That loon or somebody cover it and then he became a TV
director. So what when I was child, I saw
all these shows that he made being recorded and in fact, I
actually I suppose my first job was when I was about eight and I
worked the roller captions for a tww show called land of song,
which was It was all in Welsh and it was a musical show that
used to go out and Sunday night. And in those days you you either
had to if you wanted to show that went out and Sunday night,
I have to be religious or musical, so they got rounded
that way. So it had all these vast numbers
of viewers because it wasn't religious, the only show that
wasn't an interest and I worked the roller captions on the on
the end of that. And that's because I don't you
know that But my mother was the stage manager on it and
stepfather directing it. So I just went and sat in the
studio then you know they got me doing things so I suppose I sort
of immersed in Showbiz from quite an early age.
Yes I did. Sometimes that the you when
we're making radio shows you if it gets a bit sound effect e you
like the footsteps of something is and I was saying this thing
I'm working on the moment, I was saying to my producer.
Jane Morgan. I've got a scene where there was
a woman going up and down the steps and she needs to do that
for the plot. She needs to deliver a letter
and I said, I maybe we generally don't need to actually play this
in real time because it's a bit like the moonship up and down
the steps, you know, and she told me that she was did spot
effects for radio programs in the 60s and she had been taught
by the person whose is spot. On the green chat and imagine
there were several of them. Yeah, I don't know, baby.
I mean, because it ran for so long, it probably wouldn't be in
just one person, but there was one person who was at obviously
had a rapport with Milligan because when it said you know,
the character has to climb 5423 steps, he would actually do
that. Come on men.
Let's go out the top and trim the Wicks.
Come on. Enemy script writer named Spike.
Milligan gave me two guineas to take a long time.
Walking up these steps. He said it helped him in his
work. Yes, I know now men like the
weeks. Stu hurry.
I'm brave light a warning to do Sailors, who seal the stormy
seas. Never mind about them in pull
the blinds, we don't want people looking in And if they see this
like that all night mean, they think we've been having sinful
midnight, Ludo party. Was that the first sort of
Comedy sound effects? It work.
The weren't aiming for verisimilitude, were they?
And then it was part of the show, wasn't it?
And it has to sound right had to be funny in its own right?
Yeah, yeah. And I mean they did been pretty
bog standard sound effects prior to the goons footsteps on
gravel, things like that, door opening, and shutting and then
yes Spike was asking for increasingly asking for More
outlandish sounds and very often you know, the for the sound of a
door knocking he'd have hit one. In the script, would say a
telephone rings. That's the sound of a door
knocking, you know? Yeah, he played with the for.
Yeah, and of course, towards the end of the Goon Show run, they
started using the radio phonic Workshop, guys.
See her getting more and more sophisticated sounds.
You talk about sound effects as you know, speaking to Margaret
cable and Smith recently. Yeah, to her part.
And the play about Spike and she plays the spot effects lady in
that. Yeah, that that's right.
Yeah, we Nick and I we wrote a treatment for what we wanted to
a sitcom set in Nelson's Navy and because we we just been
doing a show called mastering the universe with Dawn French,
we have the sound effects person called, as MacKenzie's been
doing it for quite a long. Time and in fact, she's done
spot on Ed Reardon and beauty of Britain and probably about 100
shows that. Hmm, I've written and so Nick
and I wanted her as a cat, not specifically, but a spot effect
person as a character, just so, it's a good character.
And so, he noticed he did it in his Spike.
Milligan play. Yes.
And I also did, he did my Tristram Shandy adaptation.
So the idea, my Tristram Shandy one was That the at Simon
Russell Beale playing, Tristram Shandy it, misses his flight
from Corfu. So the sound effects person has
to play Tristram Shandy and so that is so we must done this
both from this character in slightly different ways but when
I first started doing play radio plays as an actor, I was on the
radio repping in the early eighties and we would still
using the Studio's a big radio drama Studios at B&H and They
were purpose-built with trays of gravel, one Studio, B12 B13
current, which were had a drawbridge, so if you could have
a medieval battle that ended how many players need to draw
bridge, but that they have that there and then steps with
different kinds of boards and concrete.
And there was some sound effects that were left over.
I guess from when the building opened in 1932 whenever it was
here, And there was a car door slam, which was clearly an art
deco design. It was a pink metal door on a,
on a pink wooden sort of plinth card, or on a wooden print.
So, if somebody got out of a car in a radio, play in the 1980s,
slammed the door. It would have been this this
vintage sound effect and some of them were you thought why are
you still doing these? You know what, why don't you
sort of Make me sound a bit more realistic but I guess it took a
while to change. When I with Nigel planer, we
wrote this character called Nicholas crazes and act radio
series and we wanted it to sound quite realistic.
We recorded some bits and and it really was the getting old LP of
a cat meowing or something, you know, whatever you want it and
it just sounded so antique. And so in the end the producer
said just gave us a tape recorder and simple go away and
make it yourself which we did in it ever since then, I've tended
to record things on location because I just think it sounds a
bit more realistic. Oh, just on that.
Okay, who does alga the cat? Thank you.
We hold auditions every every series and I had I think the
produced piece is kind to me. I always seem to get the
apartment. I think.
I think it's entirely Fair competition and it isn't Jenny
Agutter. Did did a really good I thought
husband's actually does better than mine but the producer
loyally stuck to to my video. But I've got, actually, I got as
I talk to you. Now, I've got remember the days
of the The Message Board, the radio for Message Board.
Yes. And I've got, this is abusive
message that a man sent to me called Hamp sing you a 14-6 25
forums called. And, and he said, posted this
message epic. The bloody cat.
It only has one meow for every occasion.
Two s's in occasion, either. Hire an actor who can do cats or
record a real one, it's embarrassing.
But poor Elgar having his line. Mouth by an idiot.
So I've got that framed in my office.
Has you tied to the ready for message boards?
In two episodes of the show, didn't you?
Because it Stan Used to write vaguely threatening messages in
the show. Yes, Leon.
It's what a very long, did they? And I think that the probably
shut them down because they were mainly just abusive went and
yeah but I mean any lasted a couple of years I think that
yeah and everybody just does it on Twitter than to it's a
science right but no but listen Christopher thank you so much
for agreeing to Talk to to me and what if you see got
obviously you've got the the odd women that's is that sort of in
production now or not, not quite, I think it will be within
the next month or so. Yeah.
Okay. What else have you got coming
up? That's it.
Really, that's it. Okay, there's talk of another
another series of it but yeah, I don't know when we when quite
when we do that. Okay, imagine Ed would not
particularly been a goon show Fanny.
I fancy. He'd have been more of a The
horn then, what do you think? Yes, I think, I think that's
right. Yes, I mean he would want it
would never be as simple as that, you know?
He they would be at an angle on it.
I think because, you know, Marty Feldman and bought him a pint or
something, what, you know? Yes, it wouldn't be just a
straightforward affection. He find the goons a bit tiresome
and I do. Yes, thanks again to Christopher
all 50 episodes, so far of this podcast.
Yes, there are 50. Now, they're all available in
the usual podcast places. So please seek those out.
If you haven't already heard them in the meantime, I will be
back next week with another special guest until then.
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