And today, we're going to talk about everybody's favorite
topic, aliens. You see, the world is alive and
it manifests in all kinds of ways.
Why shouldn't there be beings who live in forests?
Why shouldn't there be beings of the air?
You know, just like in the old days, they talked about these
things. I think it's my my primary
interest is is in what it does to my mind.
In a form that protects us from this nonsense.
So why would we want to invite in the very thing we're actually
asking to be kept out right to? To be pacified and regulated.
It's not spacemen, it's not people coming from other worlds
that may have happened, and it may occasionally happen.
Such things are possible. Welcome back to the Denver's
Ocean podcast. I'm here once again with Joseph
Wagner, and today we're going to talk about everybody's favorite
topic, aliens. I know this has been big in the
world of always, actually for a long time, since the 1950s at
least, but really big these days.
There's a lot about disclosure. There's a lot of videos coming
out, a lot of different scientists and military people
talking about this. There's 100% something going on,
you know, even the government's admitting it at this point.
So I think it's worth getting into this and, and Joe and I and
several others in the alien community that I enjoy actually
think that this has something more to do with consciousness
than it has to do with little green men.
So maybe Joe, you'd be willing to introduce this topic and how
you got into it and and kind of how you see it.
Hello everyone. Hello, Damian.
I, I resisted this at first talking about this because we're
not, there's so much weird stuff about aliens.
And so since most of the people who watch this thing are
interested in practice, but the world is, is inundated right
now, as Damien said, with stuff about aliens and
extraterrestrials and all kinds of baloney.
It's important to have like a practice viewpoint, you know,
and hopefully we'll be able to give some information in this
that will help you come up with a practice viewpoint that works
for you. And it's a more complex and more
interesting topic than most people think.
Most people think UFOs, people come from, you know, close
encounters, They're on Alpha Centauri, they're flying here.
I think this is the most absurd view anyone can possibly have.
And there's quite a bit of stuff on there that these our space
brothers are coming to save us from ourselves.
That's almost a direct Keel quote right there.
But there's other ways to look at this that I think as
practitioners can be quite beneficial.
So I got, I mean, I was not interested in this stuff at all
other than the general sense of having seen when I was a kid,
close encounters. And you hear these stories
occasionally you run into someone who says they saw a UFO,
whatever. I had never seen a UFO when I
got interested in this. I didn't see one since then, but
very minor, but it was during the pandemic.
You know, we're all bored as hell.
There's nothing to do. You can't go out.
And like there's a strong sense of fear.
Communities were kind of non existing except for online and I
just I don't remember exactly how I came across it, but I came
across a book by a guy named John Keel K double El and to my
mind, no one has surpassed Keel and is either his ability to
write. He was a beautiful writer.
He was a he was a journalist since he was very young and, and
had a great command of the English language.
And his insights about what was probably going on or how to look
at what was going on are so much superior to anything that you
see these days as far as I'm concerned that it really blew my
mind. He's got several really good
books, but if you're going to read 1, I think the best one to
start with is Operation Trojan Horse.
That book talks about, I mean, he did more research about
aliens and, and all this stuff than anyone else and had a, a
more holistic view than anyone else.
And we can talk a little bit about what that was, but it's a
good book to start with. I think it's better than, it's
better than way better than anybody who's like, there are
spacemen coming and they wanna you know what?
What did Teres McKenna used to call them like, not alien, but
extraterrestrial proctologists or something?
I always thought that was funny because they're always like
sticking things in people's butts and stuff.
Like, anyway, to my mind, Keel's most interesting.
I read that book and it really expanded my mind.
And that is why I think this is the most important thing for
practitioners to hear is that we're always looking to expand
our viewpoint. Whatever viewpoint you have is
already limited because there's your viewpoint and everybody
else's. And so there's a built in kind
of dualism there and all this kind of thing.
We want to expand our mind and reading this kind of stuff can
both expand your mind and expand your worldview.
You kind of think like whoa when you when you read these kind of
materials, what you realize is seeing spaceships or whatever
they happen to be is some kind of apparently non human craft.
Unidentified flying objects is extremely common and even way
weirder things like interacting. Not just seeing but interacting
with beings that apparently seem to be very different than
humans. Non humans is so common just
based on how many reports there are and how frequently they come
out. And those are only the ones that
are reported on somebody today in the world.
Maybe many people are having interactions with these beings
right now today. That is an outrageous thing to
think. And to me, that was the biggest
thing I got out of it. I was like, this is really
happening. This is not something that
happened like only to Barty and Benny Hill, you know, the, the,
the first contact to use in the 50s.
This is happening all the freaking time.
And that makes your mind big and makes your world big and really
interesting. So that was how I got into it.
I, I thought it was, it's not a main topic that I'm interested
in, but I keep my, my finger on that pulse and just to see
what's happening in the thing. And it's been interesting to
watch the disclosure stuff happen.
It's it's it's interesting. Yeah, Well, I think what the
revelation for me is I'm still open to the idea of biological
aliens. I'm, I'm open to it, you know,
But I think what Joe's to pointing at and what Keel talks
to is that there is something that's been going on all through
our existence where something, some other kind of entity
appears to being to, to humans and, and interacts with them.
And that the form that it takes for us might be conditioned by
our culture. So in the past, we might have
called them the Fae, and currently we might call them
aliens, but those might actually be the same thing, right?
That like Carl Jung talks about, you know, this archetypal
projection that we have a kind of cultural vision.
And, and so as things have become technological and Star
Trek has come into the newest sphere, and then that's sort of
like how it manifests. It's like we're interacting with
something more spiritual and that the how it appears to us
has some kind of conditioning going on based on our mind.
And that that's actually a better explanation for most of
what's happened in terms of abductions and visitations and
contact that that it's kind of a non material reality.
And that Tibetan Buddhism has the eight classes of spirits,
right? Like the these are the major
types of spirits that are acknowledged within this
worldview. And I think that this might just
be the very same thing. So I'm wondering what your
thoughts are on this, Joe like. I think you're absolutely right,
yeah. I mean, one needs to kind of
look into Keel and or Jacques Valley has the same view now
that it's not spacemen, it's not people coming from other worlds
that may have happened and it may occasionally happen.
Such things are possible, but the frequency of of sightings
and the difference of all the different ships and all the
different beings makes it obvious that it's not just many
beings coming and checking us out to get soil samples.
This is like a the most absurd elementary view.
Letting go of that is a good thing to do.
I think there's no question that there's something happening.
It could. I think it's based on the Earth,
personally, I think it's in. I think it's earth manifested.
They're not from somewhere else. And I think that wherever humans
are, this kind of thing happens in very early days.
It, it, I mean, it was probably angels, right?
People, angels and demons. This kind of thing was the
manifestation. Then later the fairy faith
became huge and people saw fairies everywhere.
I mean, I know people who've seen fairies.
I'm unfortunately have not seen one that I'm a member of the
Fairy Investigation Society, which you can join also on, on
Facebook if you want to. And I'm going to spend a little
little bit of time this summer in Iceland, a place where the
fairy faith is the strongest in the world.
I think this stuff is cool. They were fairies for a while.
Then as we became just like Damien said, became more
technological, they start to appear as as aliens, spacemen or
whatever, you know, this kind of thing.
Then there's this idea that the the Grays right with Whitley
Strieber and Communion, the big headed, big eyed, the kind of no
mouth sort of whatever they they come in many forms and why they
shouldn't also be related to the eight classes of gods and
demons. Obviously they are.
It's the same freaking thing, obviously.
And for us, because my worldview is a technological modern
worldview, what might appear to my teacher in Tibet as a sin
demon, those red demons that live in cliffs might appear to
me as as some sort of alien or some sort of a different way,
you know, a fairy. If I'm interested in fairies,
the interesting thing to think about is they're out there.
It makes the world more fascinating.
I want a world that has aliens in it.
Whether they're aliens from other worlds or aliens from
Tibetan mythology doesn't matter so much to me.
There was also a period where before this modern period of
spacemen, where a lot of people saw gods like Greek gods.
How's that about? You know, what's that about?
It's gotta be something that's manifesting into our experience,
kind of Co emergent with us as humans.
That has always been there. If you read the gospel of Enoch,
where did Enoch go? He went on a spaceship to other
worlds to see different ways that people live and it and it's
very interesting And and there's quite a bit in the Bible.
Ezekiel saw the wheel, all that stuff.
There's an argument to be made that the that the occurrences at
Fatima and Lords were also aliens and very interesting
stuff. This I, I, I like this primarily
because it expands the mind and it, and it also gives us an
opportunity to see, to have a more kind of Gaia based
worldview where we really see the world is alive and it
manifests in all kinds of ways. Why shouldn't there be beings
who live in forests? Why shouldn't there be beings of
the air? You know, just like in the old
days, they talked about these things.
I think it's my, my primary interest is, is in what it does
to my mind. It makes the world less boring.
It makes the world more vast and more populated by interesting
beings. You never know where they're
going to show up. Yeah, and it it, the materialist
worldview is the most detrimental of all views.
I really believe this. And so like getting over seeing
everything is just stuff, you know, which is so nihilistic and
terrible. Instead to see we live in a
living universe and that, you know, we can make a good
relationship and expand our compassion and loving kindness.
And and it also explains why some of these encounters are
incredibly apparently beneficial.
Like people get information or insight or new technology or
yeah, or this sort of thing or and sometimes it's not so good
and they make you sick and people die and people go crazy.
So we have these two juxtapositions.
And that kind of makes sense that in the eight classes, you
know, you have kind of benevolent spirits and we have
kind of not so benevolent spirits.
And making a good relationship to these things is probably a
good idea. And to understand that it, it's
a consciousness interface, not just like an entity out there
somewhere with which extremely dualistic, you know, like it's,
it's a connected thing and relating to that.
Yeah, I think you're absolutely right.
Something you said made me want to say something because we
never know who's watching these podcasts.
I think I mean, 1 of Keel's major insights is that research
into UFOs, whatever this is, this whole thing, we'll just
call it UFOs, is not good for you generally.
And I think that that's everyone should be aware too much
interest in this stuff, too much research of it and interviewing
people who've done, who've had these experiences is can be, can
be disturbing to your psyche. Everyone should know that,
having an interest in it, reading a few books, hey, it's
cool, but it's a Dark World and what we could call occult forces
are real. And as if you're a practitioner,
you're more sensitive to these things than other people are.
So although it's OK to research this a little bit or to be
interested on some level, I am, I think too much interest can,
cannot, can be unbalancing for people, especially if you're
already unbalanced. This, this world is runs right
up against the whole world of channeling and automatic writing
all of stuff which has almost no benefit for any practitioner.
You have to be careful. I'm going to just say in
parentheses because I'm some of the people who listen to this
podcast are practitioners. At some point in your practice,
you may interact with Yadams, you may interact with Guru
Padams and Baba. On some level, this is OK.
Putting too much in that and getting the sense like maybe I'm
a territon kind of thing is not good.
And I'm not the only one to say it.
I remember having a conversation with Eric Pembakunsang about
this exact thing, and he's like, be careful.
Tell your people, my people in my song, be careful.
You have to be careful. Our psyches are very sensitive,
and as practitioners, our goal is to expand our minds, which is
good for the most part. We just want to make sure that
we remain grounded. Our world is the primary world.
If you're interacting with too many spirits, too many angels,
too many whatever disincarnate humans, whatever baloney, it can
be very disturbing. So I just thought that's
important in parentheses. Otherwise people can get kind of
like go and Damien said it was good.
And then the next thing you know, you're like kind of crazy.
And this is not good. Practitioners should not be
crazy. You need to be together.
Our world is the is the most important one.
But you know, it's also cool. It's it's cool stuff.
Well, the, yeah, the, the Tibetans were not cavalier about
this sort of thing at all. They, they took these spirits
seriously and, and saw them as dangerous in many levels, you
know, So when we're doing, you know, if you have a Sircam
practice or something, you're, you're making a little bit of a
gesture to these beings, but it's couched in your protection,
in your mandala with your teacher and the lineage and all
of that. And that's important, you know,
so you have these people who are like, yeah, picking up a book on
witchcraft or whatever, and they'd start, you know,
summoning whatever. You're opening your mind to
things that you don't, you don't know what you're asking for.
Yeah. And then that's not a good idea.
And so, yeah, I think it is very wise to be careful and to
recognize, as I said, the consciousness component of this,
not taking, as you said, even, you know, these experiences of
yiddems or or gurus or whatever to be too, too much, you know,
to be so clear that it's a clear vision and not consciousness
experience. It's better to just understand
it as a good sign or, you know, whatever, or with taking a
massive grain of salt and not really like think that this is
like a materialistically true event that now determines my
future as a person. Yeah, that's all about.
When you save humanity, how many people have had some kind of
interaction with some kind of non human, whether it was part
of their own psyche or an actual entity?
Hard to say. And then they gave up everything
and became Princess Moon Owl. You know, like some lunatic.
And then this is not good. So that's all I meant to say in
that too much interaction with this is very destabilizing.
And the fact is everything is losery.
That's the that's the position of us as practitioners.
Everything's losery. So as Damien said, massive grain
of salt. Keep it light.
The occult is dangerous.
Why is it dangerous? Not because you're going to sum
it up the devil, but because you're going to sum it up part
of you which believes in the devil.
And that's going to take its own, that's going to have its
own strength. And that can be very difficult
to get rid of. You know, if you think of
Alexander David Neal doing that tulpa manifestation that she
talks about in Magic and Mystery in Tibet, where she imagined
this monk and imagined this monk until somebody else saw the
monk, you don't want to do this. Too much occult, not good.
That's very dark, right? Darkness is a little dangerous.
Yeah, the the IT points to the technology of visualization and
you know what we're up to in Tantra.
We're using this carefully crafted system for modifying
kind of the hardware and software of our mind and that it
really can go in a lot of directions.
I, I know, I'm sure you've, we've all had the experience
like if you, maybe you start noticing 1111 on your clock and
and then you'll start seeing it constantly and then it can
become like. You, you can written a whole
movie about that, right? Yeah, you can train your mind to
get kind of locked into and it's like, yes, you can see it is a
good sign. But if you get too hung up, then
you can become kind of schizophrenic in where you're
actually starting to shift your world perception.
And, and especially if you have any kind of Vata derangement and
you combine that with this too much wind element, then you're
really asking for trouble. So, Jeff, yeah, be careful.
I think this is all good advice and important to acknowledge and
also a way to understand. Yeah, I think the world is going
to open up to more. We're starting to recognize that
the world's not as physical as we once thought, like we we were
kind of going back in some ways, even in the mainstream.
We're starting to see more openness to that.
So we need to be judicious and in our relationship to all of
it. Yeah, I think something
important to say about this is a lot of people get involved in
these things and it doesn't turn out well for they have a subtle
sense that this is going to help them.
They're going to get power or money or, you know, partners,
some kind of thing. A lot of people involved in any
kind of a cult stuff, they think they're going to get something
for it. Nobody gets anything except
trouble. That is important to know, You
know, you we do supplicate the protectors.
I make protector offering every day.
Damien makes protector offering every day, Right.
And but we don't expect too much from them, right?
Mostly they're about keeping, keeping distraction away more
than they are like summoning up something you want, like a new
car or something. This is very, I, I think it's
important just to know that down the road of kind of a cult
practices for getting something for you.
It's very ego enhancing, which is the opposite of the Dharma.
And it never works out. It never works out.
Knowing about them is fun. You can, if you practice this
kind of meditation that we're talking about, your mind becomes
more open. If you read a lot of Tibetan
stuff, your mind becomes open to those ideas.
And I myself, occasionally I am the least psychic person around.
Occasionally I can, I can sense the mountain deities.
You know, I live in the mountains, so there's mountains
everywhere. You can feel it.
Sometimes you can feel the presence of the fairies or
whatever that is in the woods. You know you can feel it.
Yeah. In Thailand, you know, these big
trees and they wrap these colored cloth around them if
they're holy trees and a lot of people make offerings there, you
can sometimes tell there's something there, but nobody ever
gets anything from those things. So, so don't let that part go.
You know, I've seen Tibetan masters interact with these
things. I watched the taming of a, of a,
of a demon spirit one time and I made my hair stand up.
I was like, I don't want to be involved in this.
I mean, he's a terraton. He knows.
And he did his thing and drew this diagram on the ground all
kind of, it was a very spontaneous crazy thing, but it
didn't make me want to do it. And it's very difficult to get
something from them. I, I just want to make that
point because of some people think, oh, a little occult,
maybe I'll be richer or something like that.
There are easier ways. There are easier ways.
Well, I think it is important what you mentioned about the
protectors, right? We supplicate the enlightened
protectors mostly, right? And then there's worldly
protectors, which are kind of what we're talking about and
they're notoriously difficult. And the reason we supplicate the
enlightened protectors is to protect us from the worldly
protectors, right? They manage them.
They're their managers. And we're relying because what
are what are the enlightened protectors other than the
manifestation of our guru in a form that protects us from this
nonsense? So why would we want to invite
in the very thing we're actually asking to be kept out right to,
to be pacified and regulated? We don't want to ask them to
come in. We want them managed so that
that's why we make our offering to their managers.
Yeah, if this kind of thing, aliens and researching this
stuff and Skinwalker Ranch, whatever kind of weird stuff
excites you and gives you energy that you can use towards your
practice, it's good. Makes your view of the world
more vast and you appreciate more what a interesting world we
live in and the possibilities there.
Good. If if some part of you is like,
I wonder if maybe my life will be easier or I can control my
neighbor or whatever. This is something really to be
careful with because that's the ego, right?
The the thing we're trying to see is non existent or to
eliminate depending on your viewpoint.
And a lot of this stuff is only enhancing that, whether it's
dark, dark magic, black magic, kind of occult stuff, voodoo,
whatever, or if it's even like just thinking too much about
aliens, you know, they're like a little dangerous.
So good to know about and exciting to think about the
infinitely populated world, but also a little bit distracting
sometimes. When I think if you people who
have a strong connection to the shamanic side of things, the way
to go is to get into chud. You know, you find a, a llama
who's an expert in that system of practice.
And because chud is inherently Bodhi cheetah motivated, it's
inherently Bodhi cheetah oriented, it protects you from
these deviations you're talking about.
But if, you know, like, there are people who just have psychic
sensitivity and they do feel these spirits everywhere and do
have this connection, yeah, like, I'm like you, I'm not very
psychic at all. But for people who are, then a
method in a system like should is kind of perfectly designed to
support somebody like that. Well said.
I, I'll close my part. I've been, I was reading some of
the biography of Poonjaji, an Indian guru who died not long
ago. Very interesting.
A teacher of some friends of mine and in the latter part of
his life he was invited to go all over the world.
He spent a bunch of time in Europe, he was in South America.
And he, he reports that he met several people who were
channelers and he said, I in all my years, I have never met a
channeler who was benefited by doing this.
That unhinges you. That's his word.
And and we don't want to, we want to be more hinged, not less
hinged. So think, keep yourself on that
stroke and then you can do what you want.
But if you if you deviate and it starts to be like Gurbache is
telling me, then the next thing you know, you're like shooting
up them all because Gurbache told you.
That's lunatics everywhere. We don't need more of them,
right? No.
Well, I think this ties right into also to the whole
psychedelic idea too, that it opens your channels, right?
Like these things can open you to experiences that you may or
may not be ready for. So the main thing is be careful
and there's no reason to push too hard into any of these
things that, as you said, it's good to know that we are in a
living universe with things that we don't know, that there's so
much that is beyond our conception, that we live in a
very limited point of view. And so it's good to open our
mind. But yes, I think everything
you've said is so helpful that we want to be careful about this
stuff and, and not not cavalier. So thank you for enjoying this
conversation. I hope our, our listeners enjoy
it. I know it might sound a little
bit like depressing. Oh, super exciting.
You know, I watch X-Files every week as a kid, and that that
show just, like, inspired me because it's just like, the
world. Life is boring, and you want
something exciting to happen, like aliens to land in your
backyard. But there's so much magic in the
vajriana that you'll find just by practicing this.
And yeah, so I think it's just good to have this whole big, big
perspective and keep it couched in wisdom and bodhichitta, and
you'll be just fine. So thanks for watching as
always. And a reminder that we have our
weekly live meditation Wednesday nights at 5:00 PM Pacific Time
on YouTube Live. So check that out if you want to
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fun, cool stuff you might encounter there.
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