1 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:12,320 Welcome back everybody to the Denver's Ocean podcast. 2 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:14,200 I'm here once again with Joseph Wagner. 3 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:17,720 And today we have a very special guest, Lama Dawa, a new friend 4 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:20,760 of Joe, and he's going to introduce him and tell us all 5 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:22,760 about him and his Dharma history. 6 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:25,560 And I think we have a lot of fun stuff to learn today. 7 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:28,600 Thanks, Damien. Hello, everyone. 8 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:34,520 I would like to say I'm very grateful to welcome Romadawa 9 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:37,720 Zangpo to our little podcast. I had the good fortune of 10 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:41,960 meeting Lomadawa a few weeks ago through another person in our 11 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:44,720 regular Denver's Ocean Group. Had met him in Cristo in 12 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:49,200 Colorado, kind of the hub of Vajriana in Colorado some years 13 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,440 ago and said you, you guys should get to know each other. 14 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:55,760 And he happens to live only 45 minutes from here or so. 15 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:58,600 So we had T and now we're becoming friends and I feel very 16 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:02,120 grateful. MO Madal is a is a student in 17 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:05,040 the Cogu lineage primarily and did a three-year retreat under 18 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:09,760 the auspices of Kalu Rimpoche in the 80s and has been teaching 19 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:14,880 and practicing ever since then. And it's just a great honor for 20 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:16,760 us to have him here on our podcast. 21 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:19,640 So thank you for coming and thanks for making time. 22 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:21,600 Really grateful. Totally my pleasure. 23 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:23,400 This is fun, thank. You. 24 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:27,040 Well, so maybe you can just give us a little history about your 25 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,600 Dharma history and your practice and your teachers and, you know, 26 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:34,200 the usual spiel. Sure. 27 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:40,640 The The Short version, of course, took Refuge 1980. 28 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,840 Prior to that, I was reading Buddhist literature of all 29 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:47,360 kinds. Prior to that, of course, on the 30 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:53,840 sort of general spiritual quest, reading spiritual literature 31 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,520 from around the world and, and nothing clicked until I found 32 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:00,960 Buddhism and then it was, you know, Grand Slam. 33 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:06,400 And so I know I was Buddhist and I went to decided with my 34 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:10,039 partner. She encouraged me, we went to 35 00:02:10,039 --> 00:02:14,000 Boulder to go to Naropa Institute and we thought maybe 36 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:17,200 chugging Trump or Rinpoche would be our connection. 37 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:21,360 We liked his books didn't pan out. 38 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:25,440 He was not my connection. I knew I was Buddhist. 39 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:29,160 I knew I was Tibetan Buddhist, and in my heart of hearts, I 40 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:33,240 knew I was a Kagyu. And that was just my DNA, my 41 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:35,120 spiritual DNA, and I just knew it. 42 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:38,920 And I was ready to take refuge. And I thought, this is great 43 00:02:38,920 --> 00:02:44,120 because Chogram Champa is a renowned master and very 44 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:46,440 important, of course, in bringing Buddhism to the West. 45 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:51,120 And he was a Kagyu Tolku, So it seemed perfect. 46 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,480 So I was getting prepared. They prepare you in that 47 00:02:55,480 --> 00:03:00,640 tradition to take refuge. And the person that was assigned 48 00:03:00,640 --> 00:03:05,080 to me to kind of prep me, everything was going fine. 49 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,320 And then he got to a point where he said, and because Chugum 50 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:11,760 Chungpur Rinpoche is going to be your preceptor, that means you 51 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:14,360 take him for your to be your root guru. 52 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:20,480 Well, I knew that was not kosher and I was not going to go there. 53 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:25,760 So with sort of a heavy heart, I said, well, deals off. 54 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:29,960 You know, Long story short, I ended up going to Portland, OR 55 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,880 and to go to chiropractic school of all things. 56 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:40,120 And as soon as I got to Portland, I saw a flyer on a on 57 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:43,680 a street lamp and it was for a Dharma center. 58 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:45,680 And I thought, well, I'll check it out. 59 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:47,600 And when I walked in, I know I was home. 60 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:52,960 It was a Calu Rinpoche center. Prominently positioned above the 61 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:55,800 shrine was very old black and white pictures. 62 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:01,160 On the left was the 16th gallon Karmapa and on the right was the 63 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:06,560 Dalai Lama. And we started doing Chen Ray Z 64 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:08,600 practice. That was their core practice 65 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:11,600 that had been given to that center by Calorie Boucher on a 66 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:13,960 previous visit. This was 1980. 67 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:22,760 That spring Llama Lodru from San Francisco, who had been sent to 68 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:26,360 the West by Keller Rinpoche and the 16th Karmapa. 69 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:30,920 He came to Portland and I took refuge with him in April of 1980 70 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:34,640 and been on that track ever since. 71 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,160 Sometime in the early 80s, Kellerin Poche came. 72 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:44,960 Actually, I should back up. That fall of 80, His Holiness 73 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:49,080 16th Karmapa came to on a tour to the West and he came to 74 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:51,640 Portland, OR. We hosted him for a couple days 75 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:57,240 and also I went to San Francisco and saw him the very first time. 76 00:04:57,240 --> 00:04:59,600 I laid eyes on him from a great distance. 77 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:04,680 He was about this tall because it was he was so far away, but I 78 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:08,600 saw him come out on the stage. It was a pro black, a black 79 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:13,800 crown ceremony and that was it. As soon as I saw this figure, 80 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:19,320 this big, from way far away, I knew that this was a fully 81 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:25,840 enlightened Buddha in the flesh, and and more than that, that he 82 00:05:25,840 --> 00:05:29,800 was my root teacher, my root guru, and that this was it. 83 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:35,760 Nobody, no ordinary human being could even move like that. 84 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:38,840 The way his body moved, even from that distance, with the 85 00:05:38,840 --> 00:05:44,200 elegance and gracefulness and majesty, it was clear he was 86 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,760 king of the universe. I mean, it was so obvious. 87 00:05:48,280 --> 00:05:52,280 It was so obvious. So I was still going to 88 00:05:52,280 --> 00:05:55,120 chiropractic school. But Calorimpache came several 89 00:05:55,120 --> 00:06:00,240 times, you know, the Milarepa of our of our era. 90 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:06,120 And it was declared that he had given his permission for a 91 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:08,440 three-year retreat to be held in Oregon. 92 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:12,840 We had retreat property outside of Eugene. 93 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,520 My hand went up immediately. I knew if I didn't do a 94 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,000 three-year retreat, I'd regret it my whole life. 95 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:27,000 So that retreat started in 1986, August 1st, very important date, 96 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:35,080 and it ended in December of 89. I didn't want it to end. 97 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:38,000 I had recurring dreams of being back in the second three-year 98 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:42,240 retreat. That's it. 99 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:45,040 After that, you just practice, practice, practice. 100 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:51,480 Keep going, you know, keep deepening and trying to really 101 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:55,320 embody the teachings, of course. So that was my journey in a 102 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:57,400 nutshell. Wow, beautiful. 103 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:00,080 Tell us a little bit about your three-year retreat if you don't 104 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:02,040 mind. Like what did follow the 105 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:06,320 standard plan from from Jung and Comptroller? 106 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:07,760 Was it a different style? It was. 107 00:07:08,280 --> 00:07:10,440 How did that go? Many of our listeners probably 108 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:13,360 aren't familiar with the way a three-year retreat unfolds and 109 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:15,760 and what that really means in the Tibetan tradition. 110 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,040 Would be awesome if you talk. Right. 111 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:22,240 So briefly, a lot is considered to be sort of secret, self 112 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:24,160 secret. We don't talk too much about it, 113 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:27,640 but structurally, for one thing, yes, jump in control. 114 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:33,040 The great is the Llama who in Tibet really instituted 3 year 115 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:40,320 retreat tradition that went to the calorie Pochet who was the 116 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:45,440 great was appointed retreat master in Paupong in eastern 117 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:51,840 Tibet and come and he created that even when they went into 118 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:58,920 exile into India, of course. So we would wake up at, I think 119 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:03,280 it was, I want to say 4:00 AM, but I think it was 3:00 AM 120 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:06,760 everyday. We had our own, our own small 121 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:10,800 room, about a 10 by 10 with our own shrine and a box. 122 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,640 We had to build our own meditation box to sit in because 123 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:16,560 you do your whole retreat sitting up in meditation 124 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:22,920 posture, even sleeping. We had nine men and there was a 125 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:28,600 retreat for the women on the property that was separate, so 126 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:34,320 we never interacted with them. But there were seven women that 127 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:36,600 completed the retreat. We had the exact same 128 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:39,559 curriculum. Of course, both sides, the men 129 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:45,400 and women both had a, a cook who was responsible for doing our 130 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:50,360 laundry and so on, even getting our mail and and all that kind 131 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:53,880 of stuff. But we had, the way it's set up 132 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:57,000 is we did 4 tons. A ton is the Tibetan word for a 133 00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:59,360 meditation session. We would do 4 tons a day. 134 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:03,920 The first one it whether it was 3 or 4:00 AM in our room. 135 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:08,200 Then we would meet for a morning practice which included Green 136 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:11,120 Tara. We had breakfast back in our 137 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:14,720 rooms for a few hours, so like that. 138 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:18,920 And then there was an evening group get together to do a 139 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:21,800 Mahakala protector practices and so on. 140 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:28,560 And then the the monthly schedule was also punctuated by 141 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:34,520 periodic feast ceremonies on the 10th day, the 15th day, 142 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:38,320 etcetera, like that Vajio Guinea day and like that. 143 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:39,800 So it was very, very traditional. 144 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,840 The requirement was that we had to be able to read Tibetan 145 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:50,360 because those days nothing had been translated, not in terms of 146 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,240 three-year retreat texts. Since then. 147 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:57,120 In recent years, yes, but back then we were kind of the Guinea 148 00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:59,080 pigs. We're not the first three-year 149 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:00,800 retreat set up by Caloran Pochet. 150 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:04,240 There were a couple prior ones that were done in France, but we 151 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:08,920 were one of the 1st and so someone experimental in a way. 152 00:10:09,680 --> 00:10:14,320 But Caloran Pochet appointed a retreat master for us that came 153 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:19,760 from his monastery in India in West Bengal. 154 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:23,080 Sonoda is the name of Calvin Peshe's home monastery. 155 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:28,640 And Salama Sang Singh came over from India, spoke some English 156 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:34,320 but not that much about us, maybe a little more than I spoke 157 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:39,800 Tibetan, but kind of comparable. And he guided us through the 158 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:43,520 curriculum would change every few, let's say every few weeks 159 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:47,280 or months, we would do a practice, then complete that, 160 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:50,680 then go to another practice, another practice and go through 161 00:10:50,680 --> 00:10:53,720 the three years. We kind of culminate with the 162 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:59,760 six yogas of well, we did Naropa's six yogas and Naguma's 163 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,080 six yogas. So for those of you who don't 164 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:06,000 know, Naguma is kind of the equivalent of Naropa for the 165 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:08,920 Shanpa Kagu. And this retreat was 166 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:16,360 predominantly Shank Pakagu, but we had a lot of Karmakagu as 167 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:20,320 well. And in my heart of hearts, 168 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:26,120 because of that, I'm a hybrid. I do both Karmakagu and Shank 169 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:30,920 Pakagu practices to this day because of my connection with 170 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:35,040 the Karmapa lineage and 16th Karmapa and now the 17th Karmapa 171 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:40,680 almost identify more as a Karmakar you. 172 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:45,040 But we don't need to split hairs or make too many distinctions. 173 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:51,440 You know, Buddhism is Buddhism. Nature of mind practices is not 174 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:55,480 something we need to put labels to, particularly whether even 175 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:59,320 whether we called Sobchand or Mahamudra essentially same 176 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:02,040 thing, just a different slightly different path, slightly 177 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:03,800 different terminology to get there. 178 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:08,760 So that's kind of a condensed version. 179 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:10,320 Wonderful, I. Have a question? 180 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:13,720 About so you said you you were encouraged by your partner so 181 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:16,920 I'm wondering, you know like me included, had thought about 182 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:19,480 doing 3 year retreats in the past but always had a 183 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:23,160 relationship of some kind which I felt made that impossible. 184 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:25,680 So I'm curious if you wouldn't mind sharing, if it's not too 185 00:12:25,680 --> 00:12:28,240 personal, how you negotiated that? 186 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:32,000 Well, yes, it's personal, but it's fine. 187 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:36,960 I'm have no problem divulging we were together for seven years. 188 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:44,240 We got married and then we basically agreed to go our sort 189 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:48,600 of different journeys. And so we weren't. 190 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:50,720 We were together, but not really together. 191 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,160 She was my liaison with the outside world. 192 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:56,120 Through the three-year retreat. We did write letters back and 193 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:57,400 forth. There were no phone calls 194 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:00,400 allowed. three-year retreat. This is before cell phones and 195 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:03,200 Internet. Wonderful days. 196 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:07,040 And so she is very, very supportive. 197 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:10,200 Completely. There was no no problem as far 198 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:15,880 as that goes. Speaking of problems, how did 199 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,320 the three-year retreat go? I have many friends who did 200 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:25,360 retreat either in France or in Asia and it seems that the the 201 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:30,920 over overarching sense of three retreats done by westerners is 202 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,160 unending troubles. How did yours go? 203 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:35,640 I'm just curious maybe. Maybe it went really well and it 204 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:37,080 would be inspiring for everybody. 205 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:42,480 That was the warning and I had heard similar stories, a lot of 206 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:47,640 interpersonal kind of conflict, things like that. 207 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:53,080 I can honestly say 100% say no issue. 208 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:54,720 Wow. No. 209 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,880 Amazing. I don't know the blessings of 210 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:04,320 calorie pochet, Karmapa lineage, literally no conflicts. 211 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:15,240 There were, I say a couple guys that they potentially had their 212 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:17,440 potential was there to be challenging. 213 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:22,400 I made a deep foul in my heart in the beginning going into it. 214 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:26,320 Then I was not going to let anything get in the way phase me 215 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,880 and it was fine. I didn't have a single issue the 216 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:35,680 entire time with anybody and everybody did well. 217 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:39,960 Everybody really did well. Fabulous truly. 218 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:42,960 Now it's you bring up a great point though, that people that 219 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:45,360 go into through your treat, there should be a vetting 220 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:47,000 process. We didn't have much of A vetting 221 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,720 process. I guess I could say candidly, 222 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,080 the women had a little more of an issue on their side. 223 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,200 But it's just people. We're just human beings and 224 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,760 we're all an enlightened human beings going into this and we 225 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:01,320 have to deal with whatever comes up. 226 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:06,240 It's I think it's an opportunity for people to work through 227 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,640 things. And of course, people are a 228 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:12,440 mirror for ourselves. That's kind of the point. 229 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:20,320 So, so people, you know, often have to deal with that, but we, 230 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:25,440 I can't remember one fight, one argument, anything, which is 231 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:27,800 sort of shocking. It actually really is. 232 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,640 And I want to say for our listeners who might be familiar 233 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:34,600 with the Buddhism as it's entered the West, that is, I 234 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,120 don't, I don't think it's rare. I think it's unique. 235 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,040 I haven't heard from anybody else who completed a three-year 236 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:43,760 retreat either here or in Europe or in Asia for that matter. 237 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:47,800 Westerners I'm talking about who didn't have the predominant 238 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:52,120 feeling of the retreat was chaotic nightmare then. 239 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,080 And that goes for both Ningma and Cogyo tradition. 240 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:57,720 So I want to say thank you for just saying that. 241 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:02,040 It's actually changes my view of three-year retreats in the West 242 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:04,360 because I have been known to say I'm not. 243 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:07,400 They work that well because people have so many problems and 244 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:10,640 people are leaving and psychotic breakdowns and all kinds of 245 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,000 nightmares. And in fact, here we have a 246 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,960 graduate of a three-year retreat right here in America who isn't 247 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,600 even crazy amazing. So I'm so glad we had you on for 248 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:21,160 that alone. That's beautiful. 249 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:23,040 Thank you. Joseph, We might have been the 250 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:25,720 exception that proves the rule and. 251 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:28,640 If you were, it did work once, That's incredible. 252 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:31,480 And if you talk to some of the other people that did retreat, 253 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:33,440 maybe they had a slightly different experience. 254 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,040 Maybe I had blinders on, but I don't think so. 255 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:40,200 I, like I said, I I think people maybe had their feathers ruffled 256 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,160 from time to time. That's normal. 257 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:45,120 But out and out fights, arguments. 258 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:49,680 No, I think we all had such high regard and respect for Calorie 259 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:53,520 Rinpoche. I mean, he was the word that 260 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:57,240 comes to mind is he was a St. He was, he was truly, I mean, he 261 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,760 was a master. He was a Yogi, consummate master 262 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:07,440 Yogi, but saintly, you know, and that was kind of maybe sort of 263 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:12,599 drilled into us. We knew that and also our 264 00:17:12,599 --> 00:17:16,119 retreat master. He's kind of a no nonsense kind 265 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,240 of guy. I don't think any of us wanted 266 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:21,680 to cross him. That makes sense. 267 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:26,960 But we were there, I think. I mean, I can't speak for anyone 268 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:30,800 but myself, but I think we're all there with the really 269 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:33,240 realizing what a precious opportunity this was. 270 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:35,320 And none of us wanted to screw it up. 271 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:38,760 You know what? About reintegration, because 272 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:41,000 that's the other thing I hear that people have a very hard 273 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:42,920 time coming back. OK. 274 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:45,800 Thank you, Damien. That's really important. 275 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:49,720 The hardest thing of three years, three months and three 276 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:56,440 days was coming out and I had no idea what it would be like. 277 00:17:56,560 --> 00:18:02,240 No expectations. And I it was like some kind of 278 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:06,280 weird PTSD or something. I couldn't talk to anybody for a 279 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:09,600 long time, maybe even to this day. 280 00:18:10,120 --> 00:18:12,720 I could not look people in the eye. 281 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:15,280 I could not relate to the outer outside world. 282 00:18:16,120 --> 00:18:22,920 It was shocking in retrospect, I guess I hadn't realized that I 283 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:26,920 how deep I had gone and was not prepared. 284 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:30,640 That would be my biggest critique was we were not 285 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,240 prepared. Now again, I can't speak for 286 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:34,960 anyone else. I never heard anybody else say 287 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:36,320 that it was so difficult for them. 288 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:41,560 But for me, it was incredibly difficult coming out. 289 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:46,880 I was not prepared. I didn't know how to relate to 290 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:50,080 the world, to be honest. After, after three years of 291 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:55,200 three or four in the morning to 10:00 at night, nothing but 292 00:18:55,200 --> 00:19:00,320 practice. I mean with no breaks, you know, 293 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:02,880 no days off, no, no vacations, no. 294 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:05,600 Oh, take a week off and go see your family. 295 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:11,360 No, nothing like that. So it was the, my whole world. 296 00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:14,560 It was all I knew. And we were told at the end of 297 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,680 the second year, oh, 'cause we didn't really keep track 298 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:21,000 ourselves, but our llama told us that your second year has ended, 299 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:25,800 you have one more year to go. Almost had a heart attack it, it 300 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:31,120 was so jarring and sad to think, oh, it's only a year left, it's 301 00:19:31,120 --> 00:19:34,160 going to be over soon. I did not want it to end. 302 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:38,960 And when it came, when it was time to leave, it was time to 303 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:40,840 leave. The first thing I remember is 304 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:43,440 getting in a car and going down this long driveway because 305 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:48,160 there's a very rural retreat and we're probably going not more 306 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:51,440 than 5 or 10 miles an hour. And it felt like we were just 307 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:55,600 speeding down the highway. It just, you know, we hadn't 308 00:19:55,600 --> 00:20:00,520 been in a motorized vehicle for for over three years, so like 309 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:03,480 that. How long did it take to feel 310 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:05,720 like you were able to function in anxiety again? 311 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:08,960 If I'm really honest, it took years. 312 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:14,880 It took years to kind of fully sort of almost integrate or 313 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:19,160 something. Yeah, in a way it ruined me for 314 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:22,360 the world. It was. 315 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:25,360 It was. Hard to take seriously a career 316 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:28,480 which I never could wholeheartedly get into and 317 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,680 things like that. So certainly not for everybody. 318 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,480 And maybe there's ways to prepare differently. 319 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,200 Again, we were, it's sort of like we're the Guinea pigs. 320 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:44,240 I mean, this was in the 1980s. You know, it's almost 40 years 321 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:47,600 ago when we went in. Did you consider doing another 322 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:51,400 one? Many times the circumstances, 323 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:53,400 the karma, whatever you want to say, didn't quite. 324 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:58,160 I came pretty close. I was in Woodstock, I don't 325 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:03,440 know, a handful of years after it, after we came out and I was 326 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:08,160 there and talked to Kempo Cutter Rinpoche, the Abbot and 327 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:14,360 wonderful, amazing llama and he gave me permission. 328 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,200 He showed me a room. He said you can have this room. 329 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:25,880 The great Kagyu Kempo Trango Rinpoche came while I was there. 330 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,560 All this was sort of kind of coincidental. 331 00:21:29,120 --> 00:21:31,680 There is such a thing. And he gave through 332 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:33,640 empowerments. This would have been a 333 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:38,520 karmakagyu retreat and it was due to start like 2 weeks later 334 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:40,880 and I didn't have the money or anything to. 335 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:47,520 It was just too much too soon. Obviously again wasn't meant to 336 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:51,560 be somehow so, but that would have been my dream come true 337 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,080 having do a Shankba Kagyu and then a Karmakagyu 3 year 338 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:56,920 retreat. Be full on Kagyu. 339 00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,200 Amazing. Very proud. 340 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,640 But no regrets, right? Everything is as it should be. 341 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:05,280 What about the future? Any chance you'll be back in the 342 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:09,800 Hardcore retreat anytime soon? Well, hardcore not. 343 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:10,920 Probably not. Three years? 344 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,240 Probably not at my age. Now you know. 345 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:17,480 He's almost 115, which is incredible. 346 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:23,040 It works. Pretty close to that, but I do a 347 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:27,680 lot of retreats when I can and, but compared to three retreats 348 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:30,680 or nothing, but a couple weeks here a couple weeks there, 10 349 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:34,960 days, three weeks, they're very valuable. 350 00:22:35,120 --> 00:22:37,880 I, I'm a retreat person. That's when I feel like I'm 351 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,960 fulfilling my purpose. So, so to speak, I'm in my 352 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:45,040 element. I encourage everyone that's a 353 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:48,280 serious, that's serious about Dharma to do retreats. 354 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:51,520 I think there's no, no substitution. 355 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,480 There's nothing, nothing like it. 356 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,920 You know, books, whatever you have to do retreat. 357 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,320 If you're, if you're a vajayana practitioner, if you're doing 358 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:07,440 Tibetan Buddhism on any level, you know, I think it's crucial. 359 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,600 My, my root Lama Keeling Rinpoche, he had us do, I don't 360 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,040 know if you've heard of the Shakja tradition in the Nygma 361 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,080 school, but that's basically 100 days and 100 nights. 362 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:19,640 It's a retreat for laypeople where they do. 363 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,760 And so he kind of made a modified version where he was 364 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,800 like, I want you to add up the amount of time you spend in 365 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:29,240 retreat, even if it's half days, weekend days, whatever, to 100 366 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,720 days in a year. And he had us do this. 367 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:36,520 And it really helped me a lot to find some kind of integration of 368 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,760 a lot of practice while also having a family and kids and a 369 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,240 job and all of this. I'm wondering how you've been 370 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:46,400 able to integrate what you learned from that retreat into 371 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,600 your life and what like. What are some tips how people 372 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,680 can make their life more retreat like even if they can't? 373 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:59,160 Fully do that. Wow, that's a great question. 374 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,680 I mean, it starts with having a consistent practice of course, 375 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:06,280 even if it's just just an hour a day, that's a good beginning. 376 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:12,120 But my other great llama was Bokar Rinpoche, who was previous 377 00:24:12,120 --> 00:24:15,920 Keller Rinpoche's Dharma heir and he led three-year retreats 378 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:20,600 both in Shangpa and also he was appointed by 16th Karmapa to be 379 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,680 3 year retreat master. So he was amazingly highly 380 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,680 realized. His parting words to me were 381 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:28,320 exactly what we're talking about. 382 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,800 He said don't stop, just keep going, stay consistent. 383 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,440 Those are his last words. And then I heard a few weeks 384 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:39,560 later that he passed away untimely passing away. 385 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:47,960 So to answer your question, it's just about sincerity. 386 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,160 It's the only word. Even if you're doing an hour a 387 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:54,000 day, if you're doing 20 minutes a day, if you're living your 388 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,120 life, you've got family, you've got job, you've got all these 389 00:24:57,120 --> 00:25:01,040 responsibilities. You know, Dharma's not something 390 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:03,480 we do on our mat. It's what we're living our life 391 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:07,920 with all the time. And of course, we all know it's 392 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,720 about Borichita. So we keep opening our heart. 393 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,240 I don't know that retreat really helps. 394 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:19,160 It really helps especially well with whatever your goal is, if 395 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,840 it's to to improve or perfect your shine, if it's to work on 396 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:28,800 visualization practice. But really the essence of doing 397 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,880 sustained deeper practice like in a retreat, typesetting is 398 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:37,240 getting in touch with where your sincerity falls short, where you 399 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,640 are not quite necessarily you're maybe you're going more going 400 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,920 through the motions. It's a chance to reconnect with 401 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:49,800 the deep heart of your practice. And so again, sincerity comes to 402 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,120 to mind. That's, that's the preparation. 403 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,320 Then if you can squeeze off 3 days here or two days there, but 404 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,080 I don't know if I'd consider half a day a retreat, to be 405 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,560 honest. I just have to say that you have 406 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,080 to, you know, as Miller Repper and other great masters said, 407 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,600 you have to isolate yourself, body, speech and mind. 408 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:14,400 So body is where it starts. You go to a cabin, you go 409 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,480 somewhere. If the cell phone is turned off 410 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:21,280 and put away or left in the car or whatever, you're not checking 411 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,400 e-mail. You are literally on retreat. 412 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:30,040 That's what you do, do it 100% even if it's just for like I 413 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:35,640 said, a handful of days. But and in my experience, the 414 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,560 first few days of retreat, you're just settling in. 415 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:42,800 The monkey mind is in full swing and it takes several days to 416 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,240 start to get through those to those deeper levels. 417 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,320 And that's what it's all about is getting to those deeper 418 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:55,920 levels where new insights arise as far as again, whatever you're 419 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,160 working on. But it comes from that 420 00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:02,920 separation, that isolation because you're going to 421 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:05,560 everything will come up, everything's triggered. 422 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,200 Especially if you have family and job and stuff, you know, 423 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:09,920 you're going to miss them or you're going to wonder what 424 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,240 they're doing. All that stuff's, you know, 425 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:17,360 we're talking about working towards some deeper realization, 426 00:27:18,360 --> 00:27:22,040 letting go of the world, our worldly attachments, our worldly 427 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:26,320 connections, and then we can start to actually work more 428 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,440 directly with things. We can say more advanced things 429 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:31,920 like nature of mind and and stuff like that. 430 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:36,520 You know, emptiness not as a intellectual concept, but as a 431 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:40,720 direct experience, because the whole planet Dharma is direct 432 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:45,080 experience, intellectual understanding, basically 433 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:47,320 worthless if we want to be honest. 434 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,120 Beautiful. That's great. 435 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:53,440 Well. This is a treat. 436 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,040 What a what a treat. I can feel the vibes coming off 437 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:58,320 of them right here. I'm sorry you guys can't be in 438 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:02,960 the same room warming up my my Dharma core like being right 439 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,120 here. It's very nice, very nice. 440 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:09,520 We would love to have you back sometime if that would work for 441 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:11,720 you. And then we could talk about 442 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,920 specific practices or things that have really inspired you or 443 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:19,280 things that we might be able to help our listeners so, you know, 444 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,800 to bring into their own lives. So sure, because and maybe 445 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:26,200 infect them with this, with this sense that I can, I can do this 446 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,040 too, because that's really where it's at. 447 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:29,600 You know, that's how the Buddha got enlightened. 448 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,000 That's how the great masters of the past practiced. 449 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,880 And if we don't have that as a goal, then it will, the 450 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:37,240 opportunity will never show itself. 451 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,800 So well said Joseph. That's the point. 452 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,440 We can all do this. We all do have Buddha nature. 453 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:47,320 We have to uncover it, find it, discover it, and realize that 454 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:52,400 it's ever present. So yeah, it's not beyond any of 455 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,840 us. And that is really the Buddhist 456 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,000 core message. What a treat. 457 00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,360 What a treat. This has been great. 458 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:01,440 Yeah, before. We close out. 459 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:06,480 Would you share maybe a few parting words about, you know, 460 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,800 like like you're saying, I, I agree with you that there's no, 461 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,560 nothing like full retreat, but for me, like I've been able to 462 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,840 do 3 day solitary retreats, this sort of thing, but much beyond 463 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,720 that, It's just not going to happen for me anytime soon 464 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:20,880 because you can't when you have children. 465 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:25,080 So, you know, wake up early and you do some practice and you do 466 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:26,840 some practice before you go to bed. 467 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:32,040 But what have you done to bring this tether of the essence of 468 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:36,200 your retreat into the mess that we all have to live in? 469 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:38,240 Good. Question. 470 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:39,720 Yeah, great. Question. 471 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,480 Not sure if I can answer. I don't know if I've done a very 472 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,600 good job of it. We have to stay humble. 473 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,960 We have to stay open hearted. You know, one thing that Trump 474 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:55,280 Rinpoche did right and say is to be a bodhisattva or to be a the 475 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,680 idea of an awakening warrior is not that you have all this armor 476 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,320 and so on and your weaponry. It's that you're taking it all 477 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:04,720 off and you're exposing yourself and you're willing to be 478 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,520 vulnerable, tender hearted. I think he kind of used that 479 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:13,320 kind of terminology. And the world is a frightening, 480 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:19,960 scary, confusing place. And we have the protection 481 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:25,840 armor, refuge of Dharma, which is not to be taken for granted. 482 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:30,760 This amazing, precious human life that we have, this karma 483 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:35,000 that we have, for whatever reason, however we stumbled into 484 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:39,120 it or we must deserve something. We have to have that 485 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:43,040 affirmation, that positive outlook and really keep our eyes 486 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:48,960 open that as you just said, the world is full of problems and 487 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,560 confusion. Well, the appropriate response 488 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:55,000 to that is not to give up or to get overwhelmed. 489 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,840 It's to with that fearless open heart, find that compassion for 490 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:04,280 it, for the suffering world. The world needs our presence 491 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:12,680 more than ever, more than ever. You know this is a dark age, as 492 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:14,920 they say, right? Kali Yuga. 493 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:19,520 But we still have great, amazing blessings. 494 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:23,400 We've met great masters, great teachers, we've read, we've got 495 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,040 amazing teachings and translation. 496 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,640 We have it all. We have everything we need, so 497 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:33,840 we don't need to make excuses or three days retreat is great. 498 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,720 You know, it could be more, but it's really good. 499 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:39,720 It's way better than than nothing. 500 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:44,800 And in three days of really deep, sincere practice, you can 501 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,560 you can have all kinds of breakthroughs. 502 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:52,160 So again, as my teacher, as Booker and Boucher said, just 503 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,920 stay consistent. Just keep going, keep going, but 504 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,240 check yourself. It's about self honesty. 505 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:01,120 Am I going through the motions? If we're honest, we all do from 506 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,880 time to time. We all just sort of fall into 507 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,400 that. We have to keep it fresh and 508 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,840 alive. Like Suzuki Roshi said, 509 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:12,520 beginner's mind. If we bring that to our practice 510 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:18,080 and we really can work on arousing our bodhichitta, you 511 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,880 know, again, not just saying the words, may all beings have 512 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,480 happiness and so on, but make it. 513 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:26,800 We've got to like be honest with ourselves. 514 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:28,280 Like, oh, I'm just saying the words. 515 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,000 I'm not really feeling it. Can I feel it? 516 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:37,160 And then stop and really address that within ourselves. 517 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,960 So anything we do, even if we're just taking refuge, Sanjay, 518 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:46,200 Chudan, Sokhi and Chodanamala, we say these prayers, say them 519 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:49,360 slowly. And if we're just realizing, 520 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:53,360 yeah, I wasn't really feeling that, say it again, say it 521 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,440 again, go back, go back. Instead of going forward, like 522 00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,360 we have to make progress and we have to accomplish all these 523 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:03,040 things, Come back, come back to the basics. 524 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,240 I think the most important thing for Westerners is like Nundro is 525 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:11,800 like the ordinary preliminaries, really starting with the four 526 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:15,920 thoughts, you know, precious human life, impermanence, cause 527 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,200 and effect, shortcomings of samsara. 528 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,920 After 40-50 years, I still recite those every day. 529 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:27,560 It it's not something we we move beyond I've often. 530 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,440 Thought that if I took the four thoughts truly to heart, I would 531 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:35,480 run to retreat right now. If I really really really had 532 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:39,640 accepted them fully, then I would pack my bags and be in 533 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:41,600 three retreat or whatever tomorrow. 534 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:46,480 The there's something said about the merit that you accumulate 535 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:48,360 from really taking on those four thoughts. 536 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:52,200 I think that that's a wonderful thought for our listeners and 537 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:54,720 thank you so much for being here to share with us your story. 538 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:56,800 And as Joe said, we'd love to have you back. 539 00:33:57,760 --> 00:33:59,600 Totally can feel the blessings over here. 540 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,000 Wonderful and and just great to have you. 541 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,080 Thank you so much. Thank you, Damian. 542 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:09,080 And everybody watching and thank you, Joseph. 543 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:11,560 Pleasure, actually. What a pleasure. 544 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,760 This is a great episode. Thank you for being willing. 545 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,639 I know we will ask you back, so I hope that you can make time. 546 00:34:18,639 --> 00:34:20,040 Thank you so much. OK. 547 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:20,920 All right. Yeah. 548 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,080 Thank you all you listeners. As always, please like, share, 549 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:27,120 subscribe, comment, all those things help with the silly 550 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,719 algorithm so that people can find our show and we will see 551 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:32,320 you soon. Have a great one. 552 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:32,800 Thank you.