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Welcome back, everybody, to the 
Denver's Ocean podcast. 

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I'm here once again with Joseph 
Wagner. 

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And today we're going to talk 
about a subject that it may be a

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little bit contentious. 
It's not widely accepted in the 

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Buddhist world, but it's 
something that has become 

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important to me and become 
important to Joe. 

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And so I think it's worth 
talking about. 

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So the subject is veganism. 
And you know, I know about you, 

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but for many years I felt like 
that was an extreme word. 

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Like vegetarians are cool 
because they're chill and 

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they're just trying to like, you
know, tone it down. 

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But veganism was like a militant
thing of like really rigid 

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people. 
And I didn't want to be rigid 

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because, and I still don't want 
to be rigid. 

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There's no shame or judgment 
coming from this at all. 

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But the thought that we, I 
watched this documentary called 

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Christ Spiracy, and it's by this
guy, he's done several 

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documentaries about veganism and
how, you know, his theory is 

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that Jesus actually may have 
been vegan. 

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I don't know about that. 
It's not really the important 

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part, but the important part was
just really showing how the 

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dairy industry and the egg 
industry in some ways can be 

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worse than just the slaughter of
animals for meat. 

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And so with somebody who's 
really trying to live the 

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bodhisattva life, can I feel 
comfortable supporting these 

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industries? 
Because the question that one 

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guy said that really clicked for
me was he was like, is there 

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such a thing as vegetarianism? 
Because what do they do with the

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dairy cow after it's done 
producing milk? 

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They slaughter it. 
What do they do with the male 

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chicks in the eggplants? 
They slaughter them immediately.

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The, the, what do they do with 
the male cows? 

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They're immediately sold for 
slaughter. 

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So I'm supporting the same thing
either way. 

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So it just became clear to me I 
had to make this sacrifice. 

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And I had struggled with 
vegetarianism and trying to be 

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vegan a few times for health 
reasons. 

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It can be hard. 
It's a sacrifice. 

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You have to give up some of your
favorite foods. 

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Vegan cheese still isn't quite 
there. 

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And so, you know, I had to. 
But after seeing this 

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documentary, I was really 
inspired to make this leap. 

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And and you know, thinking about
Buddhism is a path of austerity 

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to some degree or another. 
We have to we give up some 

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things, right? 
And this seemed like something 

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worth giving up. 
And I just was determined I'm 

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going to find a way to do it. 
And I've been able to do it. 

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And so Joe also watched this 
documentary and was also 

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inspired. 
So Joe, you share your feelings 

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about this and how you kind of 
came to the same thoughts as I 

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did. 
Well, thanks Damien and thanks 

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for want to talk about this. 
And I know for some of our 

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listeners, this is one you're 
either going to immediately turn

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off or you're going to listen 
with like this kind of attitude.

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I I suppose just a complete 
transparency, we are trying to 

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convince you what we're, but 
we're not trying to convince you

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to become vegan. 
That's, that's not what we're 

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doing. 
What we're trying to do is 

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convince you to think about what
you're doing in a conscious way.

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That is something, what is 
Buddhism really about? 

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It's about overcoming ignorance.
It's not about changing your 

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lifestyle. 
It's not about any of that 

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stuff. 
It's about overcoming ignorance.

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Ignorance is our enemy, and in 
our world, it's much more of a 

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world of interconnectedness than
than, you know, it was 100 years

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ago or 500 years ago for that 
matter. 

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And I think this is just a topic
that needs to be discussed. 

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I in my own life, I became a 
vegetarian and not a vegan many,

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many years ago in 1992. 
I, I was studying Zen. 

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I was very inspired, even though
I was studying with mostly with 

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the Korean teacher, I was very 
inspired by the Chinese in which

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traditionally in China, if 
you're a Buddhist you're 

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vegetarian and if you're a 
vegetarian, you're a vegan. 

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They just that those are all the
same thing. 

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They never really adopted eating
dairy products very much, at 

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least traditionally. 
Now the world's all about dairy,

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but previously they, they never 
did that. 

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So I lived in Taiwan soon after 
that, and it was super easy to 

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be a vegetarian, You know, in 
fact, there were no, no places 

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to get pizza. 
I remember one of the happiest 

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moments of my life was returning
to the States and eating North 

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Beach Pizza in San Francisco, 
eating what I thought at the 

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time was the most delicious meal
I ever had in my life. 

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After, you know, living in 
Taiwan for a long time where you

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couldn't get cheese, all this 
was percolating. 

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And I was on the fence about 
whether I could become a 

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vegetarian. 
I thought, cheese, there's all 

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these health things, and will I 
be able to do this and what? 

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And I suddenly realized one day,
I remember the moment when I 

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realized that I am a vegetarian 
at the moment, that I think I am

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a vegetarian. 
And I it, it really transformed 

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my experience. 
And I from that moment on, I 

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haven't eaten meat at all, but I
still ate cheese. 

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I didn't, I'd have never liked 
milk. 

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So that's never been a thing for
me. 

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But I, I still eat cheese and I 
love cheese. 

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I haven't stopped loving cheese.
And sometimes people will be 

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like, how did you quit eating 
meat? 

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It's so good. 
I was like, I never stopped 

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loving to eat meat. 
I just stopped eating it. 

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And I think what Damien is 
saying here, you know, there's 

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many little pieces, but Buddhism
is primarily a religion of 

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abandoning wrong action. 
It's more important to abandon 

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wrong action than to adopt right
action 'cause we're all doing so

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much right action right? 
We live in a world where beating

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people up and stealing their 
wallet is frowned upon. 

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If you do it physically, of 
course, if you do it at a, at a 

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governmental level, it's totally
cool. 

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Just kidding, Just kidding. 
But it's, you know, we live in a

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mostly altruistic society in 
terms of how we actually 

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interact with each other. 
You know, I was, I went to The 

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UPS Store to pick something up 
today, and there was a line. 

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And I didn't, like, see who I 
could overpower and take their 

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spot in line. 
I got in line like everybody 

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else. 
That's how things work. 

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We're already doing most of 
that, right? 

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Most of the people in the world 
are pretty good people, you 

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know, if not excellent people. 
But Buddhism is a path of 

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abandoning activities that are 
based on ignorance. 

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And I realized because of the 
documentary that Damien sent 

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that Christ piracy won. 
And it's the same guy who did 

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Cowspiracy and he did what the 
health and he's like been a 

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vegan advocate. 
I didn't even realize what the 

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movie was about when I started 
it. 

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But by the end of the movie, I 
realized that I was was acting 

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entirely out of two negative 
aspects of myself. 

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And those didn't go away 'cause 
I changed my my diet. 

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One is ignorance and the other 
one is, is a kind of greed. 

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It's a kind of delicious sucking
on the deliciousness of cheese. 

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And I was in Italy over the 
summer and cheese is very 

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delicious. 
I ate a lot of it and and I 

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loved every single bite. 
But at some point on our path, 

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we have to see what am I doing 
here? 

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And as Damien pointed out, to my
mind, if you're participating in

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the meat eating industry, which 
includes dairy, unfortunately 

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then you are participating in 
the suffering of incredibly 

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large numbers of beings. 
And as Buddhist, that doesn't 

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make a lot of sense, you know? 
And again, this is not a 

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propaganda. 
This is not trying to force 

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anyone to do anything except 
think about what you're doing. 

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If you do it consciously and you
are convinced that eating meat 

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and cheese is good, then, hey, 
at least you're doing it 

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consciously. 
It's just that we do think so 

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much unconsciously. 
Our lives are driven by 

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unconscious forces. 
That's why we have these bodies,

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according to Buddhism, right? 
Because of our ignorance, being 

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submerged in the sea of 
foolishness and ridiculousness 

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in which we only can operate as 
me and you. 

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And I want what I want. 
And that is where this comes 

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from. 
I never personally had any 

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problem giving up meat. 
I've been like, of course, 

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occasionally you feel like it 
would be excellent to eat a 

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euro. 
And in fact, I had a bite of a 

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year. 
I'll tell a story just like 

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shaming myself here. 
I had a bite of a euro. 

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Why? 
Because my Tibetan guru, a 

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terton in the Tibetan, a high 
level llama, an amazing guy, 

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lived in The Cave 16 years, said
it'd be better if you ate meat. 

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He said that. 
He says that to me every time I 

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see him. 
And so I was sitting in a 

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restaurant, I was with a friend 
and the friend had a euro. 

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And, and I had been talking 
about this and the friend said, 

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you know, maybe you should have 
a bite of this euro just to 

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honor the teacher. 
And I was like, OK, I had it. 

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One of the most delicious things
I've ever had in my life. 

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You know, I, I, I'm, I was like,
I, my mind stopped working and I

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was like, Oh my God. 
And it had been, you know, 20 

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years since I had a bite of a 
euro, but I didn't go on eating 

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meat. 
Why? 

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Because it's wrong. 
They hate to say it. 

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The right diet is not to eat 
animals. 

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And what's funny in our society 
is that everybody loves animals.

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You know, we love deer and we 
love dogs and we all have cats 

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and everybody agrees. 
And sometimes they agree. 

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Well, they're shovelling in the 
hamburgers. 

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It's crazy. 
You know, it's, it's a kind of, 

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it's just ignorance manifesting.
So all I we decide to have this 

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podcast, not to try to convince 
you, although I think watching 

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that movie would be interesting 
for everyone. 

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Because most Tibetan Buddhists 
eat meat, because llamas eat 

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meat. 
And that's partially because of 

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Tibetan tradition. 
It's hard to be a vegetarian 

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traditionally in Tibet. 
And partially because it tastes 

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amazing and it's easy. 
Our whole world is aimed at 

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this. 
But I my final statement about 

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this aspect is Buddhism is about
going against the grain. 

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It's about swimming upstream. 
The whole world wants us to go 

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this way. 
Or as Tolko Ojinals used to say,

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it's easy for a stone to roll 
downhill. 

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In the Dharma, we're rolling the
stone uphill. 

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That's freaking hard. 
And one aspect of this is taking

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responsibility for ourselves and
the responsibility for the fact 

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that I can't remember what 
number they said, but it was 

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like 50 billion animals killed 
every year, Some kind of number 

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where you're just like. 
And for those of our readers who

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can't think about a billion, 
like myself, a billion is 1000 

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piles with a million items in 
each pile. 

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So we're talking about 57,000 
piles and each one has a million

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animals. 
It's, it's nuts. 

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And, and I just thought like, 
why not do my part? 

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Let's see. 
And you know what? 

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Extremely easy. 
I haven't missed it. 

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Amazing. 
There's, it's an easy time to be

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vegan. 
So there's just Joe 

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pontificating about this, but, 
and also out of gratitude 

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because I feel much more aligned
with my principles. 

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I love animals, you know, and I,
I sometimes say I didn't become 

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a vegetarian because I love 
vegetables. 

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I became a vegetarian because I 
love animals and now I can say 

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that with more of a heart and 
that feels good. 

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That's me. 
And, you know, and, and you 

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could even move anywhere on the 
spectrum, you could think like, 

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I'll only buy eggs produced by 
small family farms, you know, 

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people who are just, or milk 
that comes from somebody who 

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owns a cow or two and they're 
naturally producing because some

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of these things, it's the big 
factory farming makes all of it 

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worse, right? 
But then if you really want to 

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think, you know, on the deepest 
level, which is where I'm even 

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getting, is this kind of using 
sentient beings for anything 

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isn't really OK to really like 
be sucking the energy out of a 

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sentient being and forcing them 
to do my will. 

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And of course, people's 
immediate argument, and I would 

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have made this argument a 
million times in my life, don't 

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worry, is what are we going to 
do with all these cows? 

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And of course, it's not going to
happen overnight. 

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But if consumption goes down 
over time, it will transform the

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00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,920
industry, right? 
If sales go down, then people 

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will start using their farms to 
produce different things. 

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Huge, huge, huge amounts of 
soybeans and corn and rice are 

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00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:53,440
just produced to feed the 
animals. 

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00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,400
We could just be eating what 
they're being fed. 

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So I think if we think about 
this carefully, that that 

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doesn't have to be this like as 
extreme as sometimes veganism 

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can sound. 
Also, I think that when we just 

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think about one of the benefits 
of this is that it's hard to 

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have much austerity in American 
culture in particular. 

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We have so much opulence and 
wealth and things at our 

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fingertips. 
We've talked about this on 

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previous episodes in the merit 
that we're spending on this 

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lifestyle by taking it down a 
notch with a positive motivation

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to benefit all animals is 
producing merit and purifying 

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00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:42,640
obscurations for us in in a 
somewhat easy way. 

243
00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:46,480
And it's something you do every 
day, couple times a day. 

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So if you maintain this 
motivation, you're really, it's 

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a massive practice. 
You're taking on a big, big 

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practice and you can really feel
the difference. 

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I can feel the difference of 
the, the, the karmic cleanliness

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00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:04,520
of, of not doing it and the gem 
merit I'm generating. 

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00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:07,120
I could feel better, you know, 
like if I was on a deserted 

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00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,600
island and all there was was a 
cow, I don't think I'd kill the 

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00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:12,520
cow. 
I don't think I actually have 

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that in me. 
I think I would just die of 

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starvation for real. 
I don't, I don't think that I 

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00:14:17,560 --> 00:14:20,960
have the willingness, you know, 
maybe I don't know, but I feel 

255
00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:23,960
like I, I don't have the 
willingness to murder something 

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00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,280
just so I can eat. 
And like you're saying, the 

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ignorance, the way that the 
American food is produced in 

258
00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,720
particular is so disconnected 
from the fact you're eating an 

259
00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:35,520
animal. 
It is so easy to not even 

260
00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:37,880
imagine there's a cow having 
anything to do with your 

261
00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:40,920
McDonald's hamburger. 
It just, it just doesn't seem 

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00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:45,840
like, it just seems like food. 
And so that again, like you were

263
00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:49,320
saying, Joe, that's ignorance. 
That's not thinking carefully 

264
00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:53,440
about what we're doing. 
And we know now everybody knows 

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00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:56,200
and everybody knows about 
factory farming and everybody 

266
00:14:56,200 --> 00:15:01,920
knows about how terrible it is. 
This is a really powerful 

267
00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:07,200
practice to take on, and I think
that it has great potential for 

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00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:10,760
bringing benefit to beings. 
And I know that the the current 

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00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,240
Karmapa is vegetarian and maybe 
even a vegan. 

270
00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,280
He, you know, is an advocate for
all of this. 

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00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,560
And, you know, we had Chacho 
Rimpoche, who was really strict 

272
00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:22,720
about this, and we've had Pacho 
Rimpoche was a vegetarian. 

273
00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:26,280
So it's not unheard of. 
I think this is really worth 

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00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:30,160
considering and on on the diet 
aspect. 

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00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,360
I'm a guy who lifts weights. 
I I want to have a fairly high 

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00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:37,240
protein intake. 
All the research shows that tofu

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00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:39,920
is your king. 
It is a perfect protein. 

278
00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:42,840
It has tons of leucine, which is
the one that triggers most 

279
00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:47,760
muscle protein synthesis. 
It's inexpensive and all of the 

280
00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,280
studies show that it increases 
your longevity. 

281
00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,280
All the scares about estrogen 
and stuff like that were proven 

282
00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:55,160
wrong. 
You can go look it up, ask 

283
00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:57,960
ChatGPT, it'll clarify 
everything for you. 

284
00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:02,480
But you know, eating tofu and 
tempeh is an easy way to hit 

285
00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:04,920
your protein goals. 
I'm telling you, you can do it. 

286
00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,080
And that's what I've done. 
I eat tofu or tempeh every 

287
00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:11,480
single day and that fills all my
gaps and my stomach can handle 

288
00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,040
it because I can't eat beans, 
which is what the reason I 

289
00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:17,440
always had a hard time going 
vegetarian is I was, I can't eat

290
00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:19,200
beans without farting my brains 
out. 

291
00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,960
And, and I also want to have 
compassion for my wife. 

292
00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:29,080
And so I have tried to find a 
diet that is compassionate for 

293
00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:33,360
my wife and for animals. 
And so by eating a lot of tofu 

294
00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:37,160
and tempeh, I've met all my 
protein goals and do a protein 

295
00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:40,040
powder made out of pea protein 
and I'm good. 

296
00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:43,040
So it can be done. 
And then I know it can be hard 

297
00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:44,120
and like I said, I'm not 
judging. 

298
00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,120
We've only been doing this for a
short period of time, so we both

299
00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:49,640
were on the other side of just 
being vegetarian not very long 

300
00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,320
ago, and I was eating meat not 
long before that. 

301
00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:54,920
So I want you to know it doesn't
come from any place of 

302
00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:58,720
judgement, but just this is, I 
think, a beautiful thing and an 

303
00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:02,520
amazing thing and something that
we can really benefit from 

304
00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:05,640
considering. 
I think beautifully said and all

305
00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:10,119
all true. 
And, you know, in China, which 

306
00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:15,000
has had a Dharma culture for a 
lot longer than even Tibet, you 

307
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:20,200
know, since like almost the 1st 
century, the there are many 

308
00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,480
levels of practitioners of all 
kinds of Dharma. 

309
00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:25,480
Now, I don't know what the 
situation is right now. 

310
00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:29,680
We're talking Primo, but it was 
not uncommon for people to say, 

311
00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:32,520
like, I'm a vegetarian on 
Tuesdays. 

312
00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:35,360
And that's perfectly fine. 
When they said vegetarian, they 

313
00:17:35,360 --> 00:17:37,640
also meant vegan because no 
animal products. 

314
00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:43,760
But that's something that 
everyone can do once a month, 

315
00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:47,360
once every six months, only on 
Thanksgiving. 

316
00:17:47,360 --> 00:17:51,760
Whatever. 
You can tell the sacrifice has 

317
00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:54,120
benefit. 
There's real merit in that. 

318
00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:55,680
It doesn't have to be every 
meal. 

319
00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:59,080
It doesn't have to be every day.
It doesn't have to be at all, as

320
00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,360
long as we're totally conscious.
To me it's, I mean, if you read 

321
00:18:02,360 --> 00:18:05,000
the life stories of so many 
masters and it wasn't just 

322
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,320
Potro, I mean it was Shabkar, so
many masters. 

323
00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:11,360
There are very, it's very 
frequently kept on Nacho. 

324
00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,280
There are very frequent periods 
where they were practicing a lot

325
00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:19,120
of Bodhi Chita and they suddenly
had this awakening that they 

326
00:18:19,120 --> 00:18:21,080
couldn't eat meat and they gave 
up eating meat. 

327
00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:27,400
And, and that is a hard thing to
do in Tibet, very rare odds and 

328
00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,200
Paylor and Pache as a 
vegetarian, it's very rare. 

329
00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:34,680
It was a true sacrifice. 
It's not much of A sacrifice 

330
00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:36,320
now. 
It's easy. 

331
00:18:36,360 --> 00:18:39,800
I met a guy yesterday who said 
he's been vegan since 1995. 

332
00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:43,280
I was like, wow, he was a great 
big guy too. 

333
00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:45,320
Not a skinny. 
Like you think you're going to 

334
00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:47,760
fade away? 
That's just baloney. 

335
00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:50,760
Like look at Damien. 
He can manifest me. 

336
00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:55,000
He's tough. 
The The thing is, he said, he 

337
00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:56,640
said back then it was really 
hard. 

338
00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:58,760
It's a lot easier now. 
And it really is. 

339
00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:03,200
I mean, my God, our local 
grocery, which is in a not the 

340
00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:09,200
most opulent neighborhood, has 
vegan cheese and even vegan 

341
00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:12,880
chocolate chip cookies, which 
are, I found out, unfortunately,

342
00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:17,440
quite delicious. 
So it's very, it's very easy. 

343
00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:21,320
So it's not, there are fewer and
fewer reasons not to consider 

344
00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:23,640
this. 
And even if you consider just 

345
00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:27,680
once a month, one day a month, 
you know, we want to, we want to

346
00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,280
have our cake and eat it too. 
I get that. 

347
00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:34,800
But it works better if you are 
more conscious about it. 

348
00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,480
And something that I use in many
contexts that fits. 

349
00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:43,640
Here is a quote from Terence 
McKenna, the the psychedelic 

350
00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:48,000
philosopher. 
He said, he said you got to have

351
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,440
a plan. 
If you don't have a plan, you 

352
00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:52,240
become part of somebody else's 
plan. 

353
00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:55,360
And this is a very powerful 
thing to remember. 

354
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:59,000
It fits in many areas. 
We have to have a plan with our 

355
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,120
diet right now. 
Protein is the thing, right? 

356
00:20:02,120 --> 00:20:04,080
This was not the thing five 
years ago. 

357
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:06,360
Now it's like everybody's 
talking protein, protein. 

358
00:20:06,360 --> 00:20:10,160
You got protein snacks, you got 
protein cereal. 

359
00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:14,120
It's like everywhere. 
I'm not convinced that that is 

360
00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:17,320
not a. 
Piece of propaganda from the 

361
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:19,760
meat eating industry. 
I, I think they feel under 

362
00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:21,880
attack and I would feel under 
attack too. 

363
00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,320
And we hold no animosity toward 
them. 

364
00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,120
But it's good to have a plan. 
It doesn't mean your plan needs 

365
00:20:28,120 --> 00:20:30,640
to be being vegan, but it needs 
to be being conscious. 

366
00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:33,560
That's for sure, 'cause as 
Buddhists, our goal is to end 

367
00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:35,960
some sorrow for all beings. 
And how can we do that when 

368
00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:40,720
we're shoveling in, you know, 
something that is directly from 

369
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,120
the suffering of an animal? 
And I have one more thought I 

370
00:20:43,120 --> 00:20:45,560
want to share. 
After I watched that movie and I

371
00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:50,000
started to contemplate, you 
know, what it means that we are 

372
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:56,280
killing for food. 50 million, 
sorry, 50 billion beings every 

373
00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:58,480
year. 
That is not necessary. 

374
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,360
I've been vegetarian forever. 
It is not necessary to eat meat 

375
00:21:01,360 --> 00:21:03,800
to live. 
Thoreau knew this, right? 

376
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,280
This was every way. 
Everybody's known this. 

377
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:15,160
I wonder if this doesn't have to
do with the continual absurdity 

378
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:20,160
of our world, the inability of 
our world to really progress. 

379
00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:22,440
You know, we're having the same 
kind of wars. 

380
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:24,000
We're having the same kind of 
struggles. 

381
00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:28,800
We're having the same kind of 
like down with women, down with,

382
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:33,000
you know, people who aren't the 
same colors as craziness as 

383
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,920
we've had for literally 
thousands of years. 

384
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:42,040
We are technologically 
magicians, and yet kind of 

385
00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:44,360
culturally we're almost the 
same. 

386
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:48,240
I wondered if it didn't have to 
do with this, this, that we are 

387
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:53,120
literally feeding on suffering. 
It's quite interesting thought, 

388
00:21:53,120 --> 00:21:55,840
you know, I don't know if it's 
right, I have no idea, but it 

389
00:21:55,840 --> 00:22:01,320
has to be contributing to the 
sameness, you know, the sameness

390
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:03,800
of our, of our interaction with 
the world. 

391
00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:05,720
I think it's worth 
contemplating, especially as 

392
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,320
Buddhists, but other people who 
aren't Buddhists watch this. 

393
00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:10,960
And I think it's just worth 
being conscious about what you 

394
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:12,840
do. 
You know, the more conscious you

395
00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:16,080
are, the more you have autonomy,
which is what we really want, 

396
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:18,640
power in our lives, power to 
make decisions. 

397
00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:21,160
And if we're not making 
decisions, we're just 

398
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:24,440
unconsciously eating whatever is
served to us, like we're in a 

399
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,840
prison, which we're not. 
Then aren't we under the power 

400
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:30,200
of someone else? 
We're part of somebody elses 

401
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,400
plan and their plan is to 
extract money from us primarily.

402
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,680
That doesn't seem good. 
You know what I mean? 

403
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:39,120
So that these thoughts 
percolated up in my mind and 

404
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,720
it's really true. 
It does make you feel light. 

405
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:44,400
The vegan diet makes you feel 
physically light. 

406
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,000
It makes you feel mentally 
light, makes you feel 

407
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,200
emotionally light, makes you 
feel spiritually light. 

408
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:51,760
And that's good. 
You know, I still, I'm doing 

409
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:53,240
more exercise than I've ever 
done. 

410
00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,520
You know, I'm lifting weights 
and going to yoga every day. 

411
00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,800
I'm like doing a lot of exercise
hasn't seemed to impact me. 

412
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,160
My weight didn't decrease. 
You know, I have this tendency 

413
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:03,200
to get skinny. 
I'm not getting skinny. 

414
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:06,840
So something must be working. 
Yeah, Two things I wanted to 

415
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,400
share. 
One is you may be familiar with 

416
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,080
this influencer, Brian Johnson. 
He's the guy who wants to live 

417
00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,000
forever. 
He like, takes blood from his 

418
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,680
son and all of this. 
But he, you know, he's trying to

419
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:21,560
live this like meticulously 
studied diet, but he's also 

420
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,880
vegan and and people have asked 
him all the time, like, you 

421
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:28,560
know, a wiry vegan. 
And he said the vegan part is 

422
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:30,320
just a choice. 
He said, I'm trying to move 

423
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,880
humanity into the future. 
And I think a future being would

424
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,320
be more compassionate and would 
choose veganism. 

425
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,320
So he said, even though I think 
you could do this longevity 

426
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,520
diet, as with me, I'm choosing 
to do it vegan. 

427
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:44,840
So that I thought was cool and 
it made me respect him, which I 

428
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,720
thought it was kind of a weirdo,
but then I thought that and I 

429
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:48,920
was like, that's a great 
thought. 

430
00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:52,320
And and it also shows that's 
possible for you to be a vegan 

431
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:55,200
and have Immaculate longevity 
markers, which is what he's 

432
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,920
doing on himself. 
So that's a good point. 

433
00:23:58,120 --> 00:24:00,760
The other thing that hit me in 
this movie, this conspiracy 

434
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:05,400
movie, there is this thing that 
has happened in history. 

435
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:10,640
Part of the shift from the 
ancient primitive traditions to 

436
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,360
the modern world religions has 
been from one of animal 

437
00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:16,040
sacrifice. 
Human sacrifice before. 

438
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:18,040
Yes, and. 
Human sacrifice. 

439
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:23,280
And and then to ego sacrifice, 
right to to sacrificing yourself

440
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,120
in your own wants and needs on 
the bat for the benefit of 

441
00:24:26,120 --> 00:24:29,200
others. 
When you watch this movie, you 

442
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,800
couldn't help but get the 
feeling that there is still this

443
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:37,160
mass ritualistic slaughter of 
animals going on. 

444
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:42,800
Then it may not be directly 
literally kind of offering to a 

445
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:48,200
deity, but I think it is. 
It is like an offering of of 

446
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:52,160
death to these samsaric 
energies, whatever you want to 

447
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:56,320
call those things, but clearly a
demon, right? 

448
00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:00,000
Like what feeds on that? 
What feeds on the mass death of 

449
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:04,280
animals and of course, corporate
greed and all of this is all 

450
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:06,160
tied together. 
And so that that was the thing 

451
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,800
that really hit me on this deep 
level when I watched that movie,

452
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:14,360
that there's it's almost like a 
a very worldwide spiritual 

453
00:25:14,360 --> 00:25:19,240
culture that eating meat and 
having a meat industry is like 

454
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:23,680
if the world was one religion. 
And that's the main activity is 

455
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,720
this like murder of massive 
numbers of animals. 

456
00:25:27,360 --> 00:25:29,840
That's pretty wild. 
And it shows that we are pretty 

457
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:33,520
far behind, you know, pretty far
removed from the Star Trek kind 

458
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:37,640
of future, you know, much more 
stuck in the Star Wars endless 

459
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:43,520
ups and downs thing, you know, 
and and so really paints that 

460
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:45,120
picture. 
So if you have time to watch 

461
00:25:45,120 --> 00:25:47,200
this documentary, it was free 
last time I checked. 

462
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,640
You can watch it on his website 
and we can try and put the link 

463
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,080
in here. 
But I really think it's worth 

464
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:57,080
watching and considering that 
that on some kind of deep 

465
00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,000
energetic level, something like 
that is also happening. 

466
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:04,040
That that wouldn't. 
Feed these big demons of greed 

467
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:08,560
and selfishness that that might 
be part. 

468
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:09,360
Of it. 
Well said. 

469
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,080
Yeah, it's all fits together, 
right? 

470
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,080
It all fits together. 
It's very interesting. 

471
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:19,040
You know what is perpetuating 
the same kind of energy in our 

472
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,040
world? 
Well, maybe it is actual 

473
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,120
sacrifice. 
Nobody looks at it that way. 

474
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,720
It's not like at the temple in 
Jerusalem where they killed like

475
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,160
a million animals every day or 
some crazy thing. 

476
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,200
I just learned that like, but 
not like that. 

477
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:37,120
But for our health, I'm 
important. 

478
00:26:37,120 --> 00:26:40,560
This is exactly the enemy of the
Dharma. 

479
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:45,640
It is the exact wrong view. 
So here we are practicing and 

480
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,240
we're thinking, oh, may all 
beings be saved. 

481
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:49,800
And. 
And yeah, I want another piece 

482
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,680
of that chicken. 
It's kind of nuts, you know, 

483
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,960
it's sort of funny. 
And I'm a participant, you know,

484
00:26:55,960 --> 00:27:00,440
it's I'm a participant too. 
It's not like we're saying we're

485
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:02,960
way better than yeah, it's not 
like that. 

486
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:05,640
We're trying. 
We're seeing. 

487
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:10,120
And so far it's paying out, it's
paying off, it's cheaper, it's 

488
00:27:10,120 --> 00:27:14,960
easy, it tastes great, you feel 
good and it's good for 

489
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,080
longevity. 
It has a lot of benefits. 

490
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:21,520
Very interesting, you know, so 
we throw it out there around 

491
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:26,440
this, you know, New Year because
hey, everybody gets a chance. 

492
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:28,400
We get a chance to improve 
ourselves. 

493
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,520
And what is Buddhism accept 
about taking responsibility for 

494
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:33,520
oneself. 
You know, that's the main thing.

495
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,080
So I thank you for listening. 
It's it's very interesting for 

496
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:38,720
me. 
My mind's getting blown. 

497
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,760
This is new to me too. 
Yeah, yeah, I think that 

498
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,440
there's, there's so much value 
in just considering this. 

499
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:46,680
And yeah, like one of my 
teachers took a Yeshi Rinpoche. 

500
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,520
He told me, you know, if you're 
going to eat meat, only eat it 

501
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:51,720
like once a day or once a week 
or so. 

502
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,920
You know, there's all kinds of 
infinite ways that you can start

503
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,640
to move in this direction. 
And like even the word vegan I 

504
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,240
kind of uncomfortable with 
because sometimes somebody gives

505
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,800
me a cookie and I just eat it 
because, you know, I don't know,

506
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,280
and they're giving me a cookie. 
So like vegans, the. 

507
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:08,360
Ain't. 
Right. 

508
00:28:08,360 --> 00:28:10,640
Like I'm not going to like, no, 
there might be egg in that or 

509
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:14,560
there might be, you know, so 
it's like there's no perfection.

510
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,600
Perfectionism, when we let that 
be the enemy of the good is a 

511
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,920
big, big danger. 
It's just like point the boat in

512
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,880
the right direction, you know, 
just aim towards the least harm 

513
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:27,680
possible. 
Of course, there's no 

514
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,000
perfection. 
Of course, small animals get 

515
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:31,840
killed in the production and 
agriculture. 

516
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,000
All of this, yes, yes, yes, and 
yes. 

517
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,160
But we're just going to aim the 
boat and do our best. 

518
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:42,200
And, and to me, this is a 
worthwhile sacrifice that we can

519
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,960
make that really can help us on 
our path and really help the 

520
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,840
world on so many levels. 
Climate change, all these 

521
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,120
things, you know, there's 
there's massive number of 

522
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,640
benefits. 
So just consider it just from 

523
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,480
us, you know, we kind of 
reluctantly passed this on. 

524
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,440
You know, I felt as weird about 
that word as you probably do. 

525
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:05,360
You know, it's like, it's 
uncomfortable because we have 

526
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,720
this idea of like kind of 
evangelistic vegans, right, 

527
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:11,520
pouring blood on celebrities or 
whatever. 

528
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,480
And so we're not doing that. 
We're just open the dialogue and

529
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,440
consider it and. 
Broaden your mind, right? 

530
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:22,080
What does he say in the matrix? 
Expand your mind. 

531
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:25,280
That's what the Buddha said. 
That's all we're saying here. 

532
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,520
Yep, Yep. 
Just consider it, examine it and

533
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:32,080
don't and and expose yourself. 
This was big for me too. 

534
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,600
Watch those videos you don't 
want to watch. 

535
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,400
Yeah, like nobody wants to see 
that stuff. 

536
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:39,360
But why not look? 
At it. 

537
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:41,920
Yeah, yeah. 
But it sucks because, you know, 

538
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:43,360
it's wrong. 
It's obvious. 

539
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,400
It's. 
So it's illegal to post 

540
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:48,360
slaughterhouse videos online. 
Illegal. 

541
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,440
Why? 
Because it will hurt the meat 

542
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:52,880
industry. 
That's very weird. 

543
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:56,160
You know, isn't that being part 
of somebody else's plan in the 

544
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,760
worst possible way? 
It's kind of weird, you know? 

545
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:01,240
Totally. 
Well, thank you so much for 

546
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,280
listening. 
I hope this inspires you. 

547
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,280
Let us know in the comments if 
it has inspired you if you 

548
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:09,560
decide to give it a try or or 
maybe just do it part of the 

549
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:11,800
time or something like that, any
of those things, put it in the 

550
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,040
comments, let us know. 
We really appreciate it. 

551
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,160
And as always, I appreciate you 
listening and liking or 

552
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,440
subscribing or sharing this with
your friends. 

553
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:21,320
All those things. 
We really appreciate all of you.

554
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,400
It really helps this show keep 
going, inspire Joe and I to keep

555
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,080
doing it and come together for 
you. 

556
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:28,520
So thank you so much and we'll 
see you next time. 

557
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:29,560
Thank you.