Welcome back everybody to the Denver's Ocean podcast.
I'm here again once again with Joseph Wagner.
And today, a recommendation coming from one of our listeners
is to talk about this teacher student relationship.
This can be an incredibly complex and vast subject,
particularly in the Vajriana, where the guru's very important
central part of how we practice and how we approach it.
So I'm looking forward to getting Joe's thoughts and
advice about how all of this can work for us and how we can
really navigate it in this modern world.
It's kind of so separated from where this stuff comes from.
Yeah. Hi, Damian and hello everyone.
It's kind of, it's not only a big topic, but a complex topic
and maybe we'll try to make it as positive as possible, but
there's some aspects to it that it's different than from when I
got started as a Dharma practitioner.
So when I look at the the difficulty of connecting in an
independent and face to face one-on-one way with an
accomplished teacher these days, it's harder.
It's harder than it used to be. So some part of it might sound
negative, but we have a, a hopefully a way of working
around that. So when I think about this, I
mean, Davajiana is all about your guru, right?
I mean, in there's different relationships with your teacher
depending on the vehicles, right?
In most of the vehicles, you have more a relationship, more
like a spiritual guide or a Kalyanamitra.
You're not really worshipping or prostrating to them as the
Buddha. That's only in the Vajrayana.
Even if your teacher's an amazing, amazing Zen master or
whatever. I came from the Zen tradition,
and in the Zen tradition you, you meet some amazing people.
I mean, Wejwe Fasher, who I studied a little bit with in
Taiwan, was like an enlightened Buddha.
As far as I can tell, Sheng Yan Fasher is my first Buddhist
teacher. And those guys are amazing, but
you don't see them in the same way.
You don't frame the relationship in the same way as you do in the
vajriana, where the teacher is the Buddha, the teacher is the
Dharma, the teacher is the saga. And that that's a little
different in our, in the style. So we'll talk about, you know,
how to relate, I guess, and, and how to find a teacher and, and
what to do when you found one. Like what are you supposed to do
next? I guess how did you how did you
find your first teacher? Well, my first teacher was when
I decided that I was going to practice Tibetan Buddhism.
And so back in the early days of the Internet, I just went to it
and said Tibetan Buddhism Seattle and Sake Monastery came
up. And so I went there and took
refuge with dogs in room shape right away and received
empowerment etcetera, etcetera. So it all started like that and
then shortly after I met Keeling Ramsheh and I got to know him
very close and in personal way, and he's guided me now for 20
years personally. So as you said, that sort of
thing is hard to find anymore. It does exist, but it is
difficult to find. But the way that I understand
Guriyoga, the most important thing is that it's a skillful
means, right? Like everything in Buddhism,
except for the nature of mind itself, Buddha nature itself is
just a method, right? Even the most highest, loftiest,
most magnificent tantric methods are methods.
They're skillful means. They're boats.
You know, I studied Buddhism in college some, and the one of the
first metaphors that the Buddha taught that struck me so
strongly was that the Dharma is a boat you use to cross to the
other shore. And once you get to the other
shore, you don't carry it on your head, right?
So recognizing that these are methods, these are tools, so we
don't have to get too heavy-handed about them.
We can recognize them as something that we can use in our
path to help us. And if they're not helping us,
then we need to change our relationship to the tool or
change the tool we're using, right?
And that I think that that's a great way to start looking at
the guru concept. Very well said.
Yeah, that's that's very good. I think that we can go.
When you're getting involved in this, you do need a teacher.
I know people who are like, yeah, my teacher is like Trump
Rinpoche. And they're like, oh, did you
have a lot of close contact? No, I never met him, but he's my
guru. OK, fine.
And I get that. I feel like my teacher in part
is the Dalai Lama, but I've never met him.
And so I get that. But it is good to have a human
teacher, even if the teacher is not someone you can see as a
Buddha like you were supposed to in the vajriana.
If you need a human who can relate to you, they don't have
to be super enlightened, right? That's not, that's not
necessary. They just have to know more than
you. And that relationship's called
like Kalyanamitra, like a spiritual friend.
But that before we even talk about that, the number one thing
to remember is what the Buddha said.
What did he say? He said be a lamp unto yourself.
And that is what is most important because as Damien just
pointed out in a beautiful way, even the teacher student
relationship is a, is a method. It is not absolutely necessary,
right? It is not 100%.
You can't do it if you don't have a teacher that that isn't
true. There's so much material out
there. You can start a meditation
practice today based on what you find on YouTube, by based on
what you find at the library. You know, there's so much
material out there that you know, you can learn how to take
refuge. You can learn how to sit.
You can you can do all that stuff and you can make real
progress without having any human teacher it.
But I still think it's it's good to have one.
But the main thing is we got to be a lamp unto ourselves,
especially now when I got started in the Bajriana, that
was 1993, I've already been practicing Buddhism for maybe
five years. I had a Korean teacher, I had a
Western person I was relating to as my teacher.
And then I had a Chinese teacher in Taiwan.
I had, I was not even interested in Bajriana, as I've told this
story many times. It was the power of Toku Urja
Nirbuche. When I saw him that did it, I
just went in there and I asked a question that had nothing to do
with being my teacher and, and he, he blew my mind, just his
presence. And I was from then I was like,
I'll do whatever you say, just tell me what to do.
And I got lucky that at that time there weren't that many
people interested. You could have a private
relationship. I got to go back and see him a
couple times and get some teachings and empowerments, but
that is super rare and that isn't going to be possible for
most people. You know you're interested in
Toku origin, so you look up his son and who do you find?
You find Soku Urbache. And Soku Urbache has got a
couple books on the bestseller list.
And when you try to sign up for his retreat, you can't even go
because you have to be there right at the moment, like a
concert to be able to be able to go.
And when you go, you can't even see him because he does to see
people privately. So it can be very difficult to
have what we think of as like a traditional relationship.
So what I recommend is you got to take part of your mind off
and have that act as your guide in this.
You have to be like, OK, So what do I do until I meet that person
who's going to blow my mind or take me under their wing or
whatever? And and you can do all kinds of
stuff. You can go to retreats, whether
it's a with a teacher like Keelan Ribuje who's still
available. You know, you could still have
the relationship that Damien has with Keelan Ribje right now.
He's a long chanted tick lineage holder.
He lives it outside of Seattle. And if you feel a connection to
him, you could make that connection.
Onion Ribje in town here, Choji Riboche in Denver.
Those, those guys are like, they're not as famous if you
choose someone like the Dalai Lama or Chokanima, I mean,
maybe, but it's going to be tough.
So you got to be a little bit judicious with your, you know,
who you want to connect with, right?
You know, And then hopefully you'll be able to make that
connection. So before I go any further, I
want to say if you do want to meet a teacher, the one thing I
found to be the most powerful is making daily aspirations that
you can meet your karmically destined Lama, comically
connected teacher. And all that is required to do
that is you've got your session, you do all your stuff.
And at the end of your session, when you're, you dedicate the
merit, then you make prayers, aspirations and the aspiration
is may I meet my comically destined lama who can guide me
on the path. May I meet that person.
May I have the the merits and the connection to be able to
receive teachings and feel faith.
That's all you have to do. You do that enough and things
will start to align. The world will start to align.
This has been my experience over and over and over.
I can even tell a story about it later.
But Damien, what do you think about all this?
Yeah, well, the way I look at it is I have different kinds of
teachers, right? Like I have I've received
teachings from like sake treats in and some of these high lams
garden room and, you know, maybe get a chance to meet them and
receive an empowerment or whatever.
But in general, they're kind of like preceptors, right?
Like they have a lot of power. They're really amazing llamas.
And so the empowerments that I've received from them I hold
very dear. Like it's a special important
ritual, but they're not really like part of my path and they
don't know me, right? Like they don't know my name.
They wouldn't recognize me. And then I have like a layer
down like Keelan Rimpoche and contact rigs and Chempo
Rimpoche. These are llamas who know me,
who've given me teachings and empowerments and I feel blessed.
And they also I can have interviews with them once or
twice or three times a year and some kind of connection.
And then I have teachers like Joe who I talk to all the time
and have, you know, guidance with and bounce ideas off of and
get to speak with more casually. I see all of those as really
important. The ones that are really, really
high up, they're easier to see as Buddhas, right?
Like they're just the Buddha. I don't have to like be around
them while they're doing ordinary activities and I can
easily lose my faith in them. So it's really nice.
You can see Garcha and Rimsha is a straight Buddha because you
just never see him make an error and he just seems magnificent.
And it's just, and that's really good for your faith and practice
to have somebody like that. And it's actually helpful that
you're not so close, right? Because it'll help to preserve
that faith. Then it's good to have a llama
who's part of the lineage, who you could get some advice from
about the practices you're receiving and a little bit of
guidance if you kind of have difficulty.
Somebody who knows you personally.
Because there's a certain energy thing that happens in that
relationship that I think is really vital.
And then having somebody, often a Western person who understands
your culture and language and isn't like Tibetan and isn't
disconnected, who can kind of give you guidance and help you
like navigate all of this stuff in your day-to-day anymore.
All of those things I think is like super helpful and important
to have and totally possible to get, you know, like it's not out
of a range. Of possibilities definitely for
everyone who's hearing this the 1st and the the bottom are
definitely possible. All you have to do is be willing
to travel guard troops is alive. He lives in Arizona.
He is Buddha the Dalai Lama comes and gives teachings.
He's, I don't know how much he's travelling now, but you know,
Lord calm about these guys are huge and you might not be able
to have a personal relationship, but you can connect with that,
what it looks like at the end of the path.
You know, that is definitely possible.
You just have to avail yourself of a, a plane ticket, you know,
and maybe you have to go to India, but maybe not, you know,
maybe you can just go to Brooklyn.
You never know. There's lots of llamas out there
and in that category like soak your and Buchez and the Minjur
and Buchez. These guys are amazing.
It's very tough to see them privately and have like a
personal conversation and to get them to connect with you.
Now I will give a piece of a secret oral instruction maybe if
you do. Now I've been very, very lucky
with meeting a lot of llamas. I had good relationship with
Tolkuwarjun. I spent a lot of time in Tibet,
all this kind of stuff. I just been lucky If you have
the opportunity to have a one-on-one with someone like His
Holiness Socket treason and talk about the old one or the new
one. But the the old guys like really
amazing some kind of thing. Then you got to do the
following. You got to say, Rubiche, please
accept me as your disciple. And if they say OK, even if they
never see you again, you got this energetic link with a real
Buddha. And that is, I feel that so
strongly with so many of my teachers, even ones I didn't
have the opportunity to study deeply with.
I did do that with Saki trees and I did do that with Llamanor.
So you know, it's closer to Telgorjan and those guys, but
take that opportunity. Don't waste that chance.
If you get an interview with odds and payload or one of these
Hotshots, you don't have to be like, Hey, will you come over to
my house and have a have a cookout?
You can just say, please accept me as your disciple.
And if they say yes, you made a connection.
And that connection is as long as your faith is intact, it's
unbreakable. So that's like a someone told me
that years ago and it works. I always do it whenever I get a
chance, you know, whenever I get a chance to find promise.
The second part to that is what is your instruction for me,
right? The the other thing to ask is
instead of sometimes, I mean, you can ask personal question or
a specific question, but sometimes more helpful to say
what is your instruction for me? And then just leave it open
because that I I've done this with llamas and it tends to stay
with you for the rest of your life.
That is very good. And I I, I'm glad you brought
that up because I didn't say that.
Yeah, if they do say like, you know, if you get that chance to
ask, say what is your personal advice for me?
That's all you have to say. What should I do next or how
should I proceed? I did.
I've done I've had many very powerful experiences with asking
that exact question. Maybe most powerful with with
Adi Rimichay, who's a student, a teacher of, of Tony Rimichay.
And you know, he was in prison with Garshian Rimichay, like
he's an enlightened Buddha. And the last one of the times I
saw him in Tibet, we were finishing up and I just said
that exact thing. I said Riboche.
I mean, there were a couple people there.
I wasn't alone, but I was kind of leading in.
And when I said Riboche, what is your advice for me?
And he was like, he got so psyched and he gave a whole
bunch of advice. People started crying.
I started crying. I heard someone who was not
connected with our group. There were a couple people,
students of Choke Niramche. Choke Niramche was acting as our
translator. It was very funny.
But anyway, he, one of the students was like, who are these
guys? That was what he said.
It was like that's, that is a really good advice.
Just then the Lum will say whatever.
And if in these super advanced masters, they see you, they
don't need to know like where you went to college.
They, they, they see you and they can, they can sometimes
give you something that literally you can take with you
and use for the rest of your life.
That's, that's like the highest level.
I just want to throw that out because once in a while you do
get a chance. You know, I know a guy who got
some teachings from the Dalai Lama.
Just he was leaving a hall and the guy was like, I got to see
you and he was like, come tonight.
And then he just when is that time with the Dalai Lama?
You know, so these things are possible.
So take the chance when you get there really bombed.
That's very good. Good.
So maybe we can say a little bit more about now.
Now you've done all these things which I think are crucial.
Yeah. You need to have empowerments.
You need to connect to a real llama for real.
And you need to probably have a Kaliana Mitra, somebody you can
talk to somewhat regularly, maybe preferably a Western
person who's been on the path for a long time, longer than
you, who can really like help you negotiate this thing that I
think those are really, really helpful things.
And part of like what Denver's ocean and all that's about is
like it's a collective of practitioners and some are very
senior and some are very new. And we can help each other out,
right? So that that's a big part of it.
But that aside, now we have this inner group.
How do we connect to that and what does that mean?
Well, before we talk about that, let's talk about that middle
level, like a real teacher, someone for you, like Keelan
Rinpoche. I don't know your relationship,
but he's guiding you and he's a master, so he knows everyone
should try to have this relationship.
Usually it's just hard to do it with the really famous ones.
So you have to be kind of like, you got to make a lot of
aspirations and you've got to do what they say.
When you meet one of those llamas, let's use Kilo Rimche.
If he says, yeah, it'd be good if you came to such and such an
event, we're gonna have you better freaking go.
When you go, they watch and they see you and they're like I said,
you should come. And then he came like, Rimche, I
came. What should I do next?
You do a couple of those and then they make the link too and
then you can have a relationship like you are very blessed to
have with Riggs and Tempo Room. Jay.
That guys amazing and and he Howards almost no western
students and then and he is thinking about you when he
thinks like western students. Well, I got that bald guy in
Seattle. I know he's doing what I say
right, because you knew when you go the next time you say
Rinpoche, you told me to do some Tara Dantara, 2 million Tara
mantras, whatever they're like. Oh, OK, well, let's see if you
and then you kind of not exactly impress them, but you you show
that you're serious and then you can build that middle
relationship. I just didn't want to, you know,
leave that out. You got the highest llamas only
can usually get like an empowerment at best or teachings
when they're traveling, whatever.
You got this middle grade llama, not middle grade, but central
kind of llama who's like guiding your path on an individual
basis. Maybe you see him once a year,
maybe you see him once a month. Who knows?
Maybe you only see him once every five years.
But they know you and they're working with you.
And then you've got any kind of Kalianaometra, someone who knows
more than you. You know, I got people like that
and when I have questions, I write them.
David Christensen's a friend of mine.
He's a great translator. He did a lot of retreat.
If I have questions, I can I can be like, hey, what do you think
about this? And he and he can give me that.
He's like my elder brother in the Dharma.
So we do that, right. So but then what you're talking
about is like the whole nother thing that the so-called inner
guru. This is like really the center
part of the path, right? This is the most important thing
and when we please. Recognizing over time that these
outer gurus are your inner guru, that that's a big part of it
too. So we're like, bring these two
together, yes. So that we start to, like,
connect to both in that same way.
Yeah. Ultimately, no matter even if
you're someone like Eric Pemekunsong or Andreas
Kreschmar, who lived with Telkorjan for years, they lived
in the same little retreat place.
They saw him every day for years.
What happened? Telkorjan passed away, right?
He did die and those guys had to fend for themselves on some
level, you know? And this is same with us, right?
I was also a student of Tolgorjen and he died.
So what am I really able to rely on?
Not the external manifestation of the guru.
If you get a chance and you can study with someone like that, of
course it's wonderful and you should bind them to yourself
with hoops of steel, like freaking Hamlet says.
But whether or not that's possible?
The ultimate llama is your own awareness, and that is what we
are getting the teachings for, is to recognize that part of us
which is also shining out of the llama and to become more and
more clear about what's our our ideas and our ego and our
confusion and all that stuff. And what is the actual essence,
the thing that the Buddha discovered that he said, I also
have. What is that really about?
And that's what the path is really about.
It's not about doing rituals, it's not about going on trips,
it's not about having a cool shrine, although all those
things are fun and good. Or wearing llama robes or
getting secret teachings. All that stuff is very
interesting and can be helpful and can be beautiful.
But it's certainly not the point.
There's only one point, and that's recognized.
Who am I, Who am I really? What is the nature of me, of my
mind? We could call it Rig Butt, we
can call it Sugutagar, but whatever.
But we better figure that out. And that whole process is the
discovery of the inner Guru. Yeah, well, and the, and this
connection between the two, like one of the easiest ones, you
know, for me, I have Keeling Rumshae the same way.
Like if I have a question come to my mind, I already know what
he'll say. I don't have to ask him
questions anymore because I know exactly his answer to almost any
question. I can think of it.
And if I don't know, it'll come to me.
And it is your inner guru. Exactly.
But also this works really well for Garchingrumshae because he
has like 100 hours of teachings online.
So I guarantee, which I've done watched many hours of his
teachings, you start to know and you can ask Garchin Rabshay a
question and you'll get your answer.
Like you know what he would say, right?
Because these llamas, they're they, they have.
And why do you get to know that? Because they are your true
nature and you're tapped into that.
And you by connecting to them, it kind of helps facilitate that
inner knowledge that you already have and gives it kind of a
little bit of a flavor and a form so that you can trust in a
little more. Beautiful.
That's. Yeah, you're absolutely right,
Garchner. We can't talk enough about him.
He's in America. He's alive.
And he has been so generous. All these empowerments, all
these teachings recorded. There are hundreds of hours of
stuff. Our friend David Newman is now
organizing, I remember what they're calling it, like an, I
think the archive project, which will archive all of Gartner
Boucher's teachings once he gave in Europe everywhere.
They're going to transcribe that stuff.
They're going to have notes about what he talks about in
different parts of the video. That's all happening.
Thank you, David Newman, for that.
And he's just someone who he's always the same.
He's exactly the same. You did you watch he's got maybe
10 or 15 different question and answer things on there and you
watch that. And after you watch some of
those you, you know, just like Damon said, if you have a
question like, Hey, how should I handle this?
You almost don't even have to finish asking.
You're like, I know what he would say, love your enemies or
whatever, you know, and we have that as a real resource.
Everybody here, everybody hearing this can go right now
YouTube and watch Ghosh Rishi give empowerments, watch him be
amazing, be like a a living Buddha and still alive right
here. You can actually go to Arizona
and meet him or at least see him.
I don't know if he's seeing people individually, but you can
certainly see him in a little group with a couple other
people. Wow.
You know, I encourage people to do that.
The more you do that, the more it awakens your own Bodhi
Cheetah, which is that aspect of you that's already enlightened
or whatever, already awake. And that's what the whole Dharma
is about. The whole Dharma is about living
from there and not living from our ordinary ego and confused
ideas about stuff. Yeah, and, and, you know, and
there's some controversy because Gartrem Che let's people take
empowerments and transmissions through recordings.
But the reason he says that is because you, the only
empowerment you ever received is always from your true nature.
It's not from another person, right?
And and yes, it's important to make the link and part of what
happens, I think, because Gartrem Che is so pure that you
can watch him on a screen, even though it's not happening at the
moment. And he is just right overlaid
over your true nature and you just received the empowerment
from your true nature directly. I have faith, you know, in him
that he says that you can do that.
So you can do that. That's how I feel.
But you know, like it's still really good to make a real
connection with a living llama that you know, if you can, but
just everybody that has this, it has YouTube, you can go get
teachings, empowerments, etcetera from one of the
greatest living masters. Exactly, I just to riff off of
what you just said, it is important to have someone who
can keep you in line. Many of us have this.
It's easy for the ego to get mixed up with your meditation
and all of a sudden you think I'm a Terton.
I'm I'm enlightened, you know, I'm able to guide others.
This kind of energy very common. So you really need someone like
your relationship with your teachers who can keep you in
line. If you don't have that, it's it
is possible to go astray. So really you should try to have
all three of those right? Get teachings from the greats.
Have a relationship with a llama who's a real lineage holder.
Usually they're Tibetans, but there are a few Westerners you
know. La Molina is really amazing.
She's like someone you could actually meet.
She was a student of Llama Wongdor and I think I have some
faith in her. And then having somebody in your
community in your saga who you feel you can learn from is
always beneficial. And all three of those people,
or at least the bottom 2, they can help keep you on in line.
Because I know a lot of people who are like, check out this
thing I wrote and you're like, you're like, what are you doing
here? Like, what's your motivation?
Sometimes it's fine. Sometimes it's like, so we want
to keep ourselves in line and, and sometimes our pure vision of
our self can kind of overwhelm the actual truth.
And we sort of like you see these people, like I meant, this
is very dangerous. So you want to be a little
careful. Good to have physical teachers.
I think it's important. And and to link to the lineage
right, like this living lineage transmission, it's freaking
amazing. You know, Keelingrup, she's the
Tolku of 1, of Jigme Lingpa's 4 Hart sons and you know, and as a
heart son himself of the fourth De Gerptian Rimche, etcetera.
So these teachings, it's so cool to know.
These are directly coming from Longchempa and Jingmei Linkpa.
Mouth to ear all the way to me. There's nothing quite like that
magic, and it really has. Met Jill, Adriana and we should
all shoot for having that. You know, we're like, we're like
pumping up Keeling Rimche. His his e-mail box is going to
explode. But yeah, there are real
teachers still out there. And you want to and you want to
try to connect with them. And the way I personally think
you also want to connect with the ones you have a karmic link
with. So making the aspiration man
meet my Terra plaguey llama, my karmically destined teacher,
that has real effects. Then you got to, of course, be
open, right and see where how it's going to happen.
But it certainly all of us can do it.
And the final plug for Garchan Ruba Jay, I, I was not close to,
but I, I knew Adi Rumache who was in prison with Garchu
Rumache. And I knew Tolko Urgent who was
a friend, a childhood friend of all those guys.
They were all from this. They're all from Noncha and same
area of Tibet. Garchu Rumache is amazing.
He is amazing, a true Buddha. Any practitioner who doesn't
relate to him is, I think making a major mistake, that he is
right there. He's in America, he's alive.
So watching his stuff, you know, when he does live things, trying
to get on there, it is the smartest thing you can do.
You can feel it. You can feel the blessing, the
heat coming through the freaking computer screen.
It's amazing. He's amazing.
And. We're not going to likely have
him in the body. Much longer no very old time is
now. We need to.
If you get a chance, do it, do any connection you can have now
do it, whether it's a live stream or in person or whatever,
but make the connection. Have faith that he's an
incredible teacher. And and like I said, I also
second plug for Denver's Oak Chen or groups like it.
Having a community that you can touch in and actually talk about
your path on a regular basis is there's no, it doesn't compare.
You can't, you know, going to go practice with your llama or
whatever isn't the same as this. Having other Western students
and other people who are trotting along with you who can
relate to you, who you know, might listen to Led Zeppelin or
you know, like have some kind of relationship to the zeitgeist
you're in, which sometimes the Tibetans, they can feel like
totally different universe. It really is helpful to have
that also right so that you you can really have that related.
Connection, yeah, yeah. And you can make aspirations
about that too. May I connect with the Sangha
that's going to support me where I can?
Welcome a group, you know like a meditation group online or
whatever you know find one join ours what whatever you floats
your boat find a way to have regular connection because Sanga
like you. You might share this quote right
now from the Buddha about the importance of spiritual
companions, but. Yeah, we, we were just talking
about this. First of all, you gotta have
Buddha, you gotta have Dharma, gotta have Sanga, right?
Can't have not have one. And secondly, was it Sabuti who
was saying like he got all inspired talking to the Buddha
and he said, he said, Lord, having spiritual friendships is
half the path. And the Buddha said, don't say
that spiritual friends are the whole of the path.
That's like about sanga and we got to have that.
We'll talk, we'll have a podcast about sanga sometime.
That's good to do. Yeah, yeah, just being like, you
know, able to WhatsApp Joe once a week or twice a week and
connect like this keeps me, you know, because I'm isolated,
right. Like I don't have any friends.
I really don't these. Days exaggerating.
You do have friends, but I know what you mean.
It is nice to have a connection. Yeah, so.
Having Dharma companions, right? It is because it's so hard to do
it. Even in Tibet, they have this
saying, only the snow lions among us can do this alone.
And, and I think that that's very, very true.
We have this inner guru and we do need to rely on it, but we
need community. Humans are such social
creatures. We really are so influenced by
our relationships of all kinds. So true.
Well, once again, thank you for watching.
Thank you, Joe, for discussing this with us and helping us do
this podcast. And thank you as always to
Ricky, who works behind the scenes to get these released and
all of that. And last, a few weeks ago, you
may have seen that we had an episode where we kind of
introduced Eric Drew, who's a good friend and mentor of Joe's,
and he riffed on some fun things.
And you may have caught what kind of magic might come out of
Eric. So we're hoping to get him on
the podcast one of these days. So you can look forward to that
in the near future, hopefully make aspirations and other than
that we will see you in two weeks.
Thank you.