1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,960 If your llama is Minja Riboche, if you get one interview every 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:06,640 three years for 5 minutes, you're doing awesome. 3 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:11,840 Our true nature appearing to us ourselves through that right? 4 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,000 Like we're trying to poke a hole in the matrix. 5 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,920 That's what the guru is really this hole, hole in samsara that 6 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:20,920 that the light starts to leak through. 7 00:00:21,240 --> 00:00:24,840 I've been to Tibet many times and I have teachers in Tibet and 8 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:28,680 spending time at the feet of llamas who you actually see as 9 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:34,520 enlightened, who are, hate to say it, but giving off light out 10 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:37,520 of their bodies, or assuming various forms, or revealing 11 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:39,760 terrorists. All of these experiences I'd 12 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:41,560 myself have been fortunate enough to have. 13 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:44,360 They say the llamas like a fire. If you get close, you're going 14 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:47,200 to get burned. And that is 100% true, because 15 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:50,640 all these llamas, all the ones I've met anyway, are encased in 16 00:00:50,640 --> 00:01:00,160 human bodies made out of karma. Welcome back to the Denver's O 17 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:02,360 Gen. podcast. I'm your host Damien Abel, and 18 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:04,160 I'm here once again with Joseph Wagner. 19 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:07,720 And today we're going to kind of extend off the last episode 20 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:10,880 where we talked about pure vision and a big chunk of that 21 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:14,000 being the seeing everything as the llama. 22 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:17,800 And so another question from one of our listeners has been about 23 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,280 how to navigate the student teacher relationship and the 24 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,560 complexity of having a guru. And, you know, this is, of 25 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:29,440 course, a pretty foreign thing to our Western sentiments, and 26 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:31,680 it can be a tricky thing to navigate. 27 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:35,400 So, Joe, maybe you can introduce how you've related to this topic 28 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:38,120 through your life and how you've come to understand it. 29 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:40,640 Hi, Damien. Hello, everyone. 30 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:43,040 Yeah, I love talking about the guru. 31 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:45,840 What can I say? I've been very fortunate as 32 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:49,320 Damien has to have good relationships with a lot of 33 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:56,240 llamas starting many years ago. I suppose before I talk about 34 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:00,920 the way I see it, I think it's important to acknowledge that my 35 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:03,960 experience and even Damien's experience is becoming 36 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:08,520 increasingly difficult for a Western practitioner to relate 37 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:12,120 to. When I got started, I met 38 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:16,480 Tolkorge in 1993. You could just, if you were in 39 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:19,680 Nepal, you could just go to his Hermitage and if he was 40 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,160 available, you could sit in and receive a teaching. 41 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:26,080 He thought whenever he was, you know, not in retreats, which was 42 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:30,400 a lot of the time. So and there were, you know, I 43 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:31,840 remember receiving an empowerment. 44 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:33,160 There were only four people there. 45 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:38,040 This is like impossible now. The the real truth, you know the 46 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:42,320 the llamas we think of when we think of top quality llamas 47 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:45,240 these days like soak Nirbuche, Happy birthday, soak Nirbuche. 48 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:46,960 His birthday was just two days ago. 49 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:51,040 The son of Tolkuorjan. Or even more choke Nima Rimbuche 50 00:02:51,640 --> 00:02:56,480 or Rob Jom Rimbuche, any of these guys, they are huge. 51 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:59,240 They are big time. If your llama is ninja Rimbuche, 52 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:03,240 if you get one interview every three years for 5 minutes, 53 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:06,840 you're doing awesome. It's very challenging these days 54 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:11,440 to have a close relationship and I want to just say that's OK. 55 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:14,720 In some ways it's actually good it and I will, we will try to 56 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:17,360 talk about how it's good, but when I talk about my 57 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:20,600 experiences, people might think well, I can't relate to that. 58 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:22,280 I didn't have any private time with the llama. 59 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:24,720 They don't know who I am. I see them only in a big group 60 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:27,360 once in a while, this kind of thing. 61 00:03:28,640 --> 00:03:31,440 I just wanted to acknowledge that times are changing. 62 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:34,200 There are fewer and fewer Lomas, more and more people interested, 63 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:37,600 bigger reach of the students. So even if you, it used to be, 64 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:40,160 if you just went to Asia, you had them to yourself. 65 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,520 Now that's not at all true. So I just wanted to put that in 66 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,720 parentheses so people didn't think they're just talking about 67 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:49,240 how great they are. And I don't relate to this. 68 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:51,520 It's not like that. It's, it's OK. 69 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:57,760 That said, you know, in the Theravadan tradition, you don't 70 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:00,880 even have a guru, right? You have a kalyanamitra or a 71 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:04,960 teacher of some sort who teaches the techniques, transmits to you 72 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:08,000 the lineage instructions, and can answer your questions. 73 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:13,000 In Mayayana, you definitely have a teacher in many cases, but you 74 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,240 don't see your teacher necessarily as the Buddha in 75 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:18,079 person. You see them as, you know, 76 00:04:18,079 --> 00:04:19,880 someone more advanced than you on the path. 77 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,960 That's also kind of Kalyanamitra, spiritual friend 78 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:28,640 kind of orientation in the Bhajriana, you know, we try to 79 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:34,960 find a teacher who we can see in a pure way this, this is sort of 80 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:38,680 the opposite, looking at it from the other direction of pure 81 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:43,000 perception and try to find a teacher who has so many good 82 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:48,160 qualities and so few, you know, negative or ordinary qualities 83 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:51,120 that we can see them as a Buddha in person, in human form. 84 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:55,320 And by supplicating that teacher, paying respect to them, 85 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,240 paying homage to them, serving them to whatever degree, you 86 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:01,400 know, your situation allows, we receive their blessings. 87 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:03,920 And we can really feel that because we're not receiving 88 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,280 blessings from an ordinary person, we're receiving 89 00:05:06,280 --> 00:05:10,440 blessings from Moboda. And this is the sort of goal of 90 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,920 the student teacher relationship inside the Vajriana. 91 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:18,760 Unfortunately, as I just said, it's increasingly difficult to 92 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:24,280 have that kind of relationship with a teacher in which there's 93 00:05:24,280 --> 00:05:28,720 any kind of closeness. And also, and I, I'm not, you 94 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:32,200 know, throwing casting aspersions here, but the llamas 95 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:33,800 are more ordinary than they once were. 96 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:36,160 You know, the llamas that came from Tibet, they didn't do 97 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:37,960 anything. They spent their entire lives in 98 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:41,400 retreat or, you know, teaching vast assemblies. 99 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:44,440 If you think about the 16 Paramampa, if you think about 100 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:47,920 dilgul cancer mache in their immediate predecessors, those 101 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,360 guys lived in a world of entirely Dharma. 102 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:53,960 Now the teachers are, they are much more worldly. 103 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:56,400 They're on jet planes a lot, they're moving around a lot. 104 00:05:56,400 --> 00:06:00,800 They've got lots of students and the students are in many cases a 105 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,320 lot of Westerners with ordinary Westerner problems. 106 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,080 So of course the llamas are exposed to that in a way that, 107 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:11,160 you know, when I first started to go to Tibet, they had never 108 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:12,720 met Westerners. They couldn't even believe we 109 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:14,320 were practitioners. They couldn't believe it. 110 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:16,960 They were so psyched and, and, and it was a different 111 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:21,200 situation. So it's not only that there are 112 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:26,040 fewer llamas, but also that the llamas appear externally as more 113 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:30,200 like us, which we sort of see ourselves as ordinary because 114 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:32,240 what's what we're familiar with. So the llamas seem more 115 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:34,040 ordinary. That makes it harder to relate 116 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:36,680 to them as Buddhas. Yeah. 117 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,600 Well, I think you hinted at it earlier, but this is one of the 118 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:46,440 benefits of being less close to the gurus because really this is 119 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:49,720 about our perception, right? That's what we're working with. 120 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:56,160 We're not trying to pretend that the group needs to be emanating 121 00:06:56,160 --> 00:07:00,160 light and levitating off the ground to be worthy of your 122 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:03,280 recognition. In some sense, you are training 123 00:07:03,280 --> 00:07:06,280 to see an ordinary person as a Buddha. 124 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:08,880 In some sense, that's what's happening. 125 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:14,160 And that's harder the closer you are, because you just see. 126 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:18,200 It's just even back in the day, the closer you are and the more 127 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:21,800 you start to become familiar. And familiarity breeds contempt, 128 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:26,120 as they say. And so having that distance is 129 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:30,200 actually beneficial. And to really recognize from the 130 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:33,720 beginning that the guru is a mirror, right? 131 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:38,000 We're working with ourselves through this relationship. 132 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,240 We're working with our own vision or pure vision or lack 133 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:43,600 thereof. We're working with their own 134 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:48,320 devotion or lack thereof, and our connection to our own nature 135 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:50,800 through this being right and that. 136 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:54,520 So from the beginning, I think it's helpful to know that that 137 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:58,080 this isn't so much about that person. 138 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,760 You know, we can kind of project onto them, oh, that's a person 139 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:05,280 living a life and they are great or not great and they do this 140 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:09,240 things and that we're trying to stop that stuff and to just 141 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:13,960 really work with this direct perception and faith and open to 142 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:18,920 the possibility that this person is our true nature appearing to 143 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:21,680 us, our ourselves through them. Right. 144 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:24,880 Like we're trying to poke a hole in the matrix. 145 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:28,760 That's what the guru is, rather than this hole in samsara that 146 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:32,760 that the light starts to leak through and it leaks through 147 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:36,480 through our capacity to stay pure about it. 148 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:40,320 And so, as Joe said, there's benefit to not being so close. 149 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:45,360 And if your teacher is the sake treats in or Garchan room share 150 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:49,520 the Dalai Lama and you meet them once or not at all, but you 151 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:52,680 receive empowerment, this is actually can be helpful. 152 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:55,680 Beautifully said, and you're absolutely right. 153 00:08:55,680 --> 00:09:01,880 That was very, very nicely said. It is not I, I think should just 154 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:06,840 say it's not that important for the the guru to know you 155 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:10,760 personally. It is good if the best situation 156 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:13,240 is a situation of old where you have a personal relationship 157 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:15,520 with the teacher. They know you, they know where 158 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:17,000 you're coming from and they can guide you. 159 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:20,360 This is as I said before, this is almost impossible. 160 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,880 Even my friends who are translators who spend enormous 161 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:27,160 amount of times of the llamas, they don't get this opportunity. 162 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:31,880 It's just the llamas are are spread too thinly these days for 163 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:34,600 that. So I think that one thing that 164 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:38,480 we can all try to shoot for is you need 2 aspects of the llama. 165 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:43,760 Let's say you need a llama who you can see as as representing 166 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:47,560 the lineage as a the end of the tube, so to speak. 167 00:09:47,560 --> 00:09:51,760 If I meet, I saw Zoek near Mche last year and when I saw him, 168 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:56,120 he's not my primary teacher, but I see here's the lineage coming 169 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:58,640 straight from his father, T.O.K Wujin, who is my teacher. 170 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:03,560 To him, to me, it looks like a a hole shaped like Zoek near Mche, 171 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:05,640 like you said, in which the light comes through. 172 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:09,960 And I really appreciate that. We need that and we need to find 173 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:11,720 a llama who represents that for us. 174 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:15,720 These days I always talk about Garchandrabaje because he to my 175 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:18,400 mind, he is, he's one of the last of the true. 176 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:21,320 He grew up in Tibet. He seems fully processed. 177 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,880 He's he is a living Buddha. But I only met Garchandrabaje 178 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:26,240 once. I consider him one of my 179 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,520 teachers, but certainly has no idea who I am except through his 180 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,320 super normal excellence. You know, if I saw him again, he 181 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:34,600 would relate to me like he relates to everyone with 182 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:36,080 kindness. Wonderful. 183 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:38,720 So it's good to have a llama like that. 184 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:41,800 And that could be just like you said, go to the Dalai Lama. 185 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:43,560 Someone you meet once don't meet at all. 186 00:10:43,560 --> 00:10:46,640 Maybe you go to teachings. They vaguely know you, you have 187 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:49,480 some sort of thing, but they don't know your situation and so 188 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:53,840 forth. But you also, you know, even 189 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:58,240 though it's best if you know the actual teacher of you is that 190 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:00,600 same person. Since that's so difficult these 191 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:03,960 days, it's good to find someone who can act in the role of a 192 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:06,520 Kalyanamitra. Kalyanamitra, Sanskrit word 193 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:09,760 meaning spiritual friend. In early Buddhism, they even the 194 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:12,200 Buddha himself referred to himself as a Kalyanamitra. 195 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:16,840 Right As a as someone who could guide others, we need someone 196 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:18,800 whose guidance we can appreciate. 197 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:23,400 Someone we feel whether we're right or not is ahead of us on 198 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:25,040 the path. They know more, they have more 199 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:27,560 exposure, they have more confidence in whatever they're 200 00:11:27,560 --> 00:11:30,120 teaching and you can learn from that person. 201 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:34,320 I have this in with many people. I don't necessarily see them as 202 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:36,240 my gurus. I might see them as my teachers. 203 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:40,840 I might bow to them. I might get a a chalk Wong hand 204 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:43,360 blessing. But there difference between 205 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:45,880 them and someone I see as my actual guru. 206 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:49,080 But these are the people you can really receive the teachings 207 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:51,600 from. I've got several Kempo friends, 208 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:54,160 one in Bhutan, 1 here in the States. 209 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:56,400 If I have a question about something, what does this really 210 00:11:56,400 --> 00:12:00,320 mean or how do you do this? I can call one of those guys and 211 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:02,840 to some degree they can help me understand that. 212 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:05,720 That's great. Damian is a Kalyanamitra of 213 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:07,520 mine. He has received quite a few 214 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:10,040 teachings I haven't received. So if I'm like, hey, how do you 215 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:12,560 set up this part of the shrine? I don't know how to do this. 216 00:12:12,560 --> 00:12:16,560 I don't know, it's like this, we need this relationship and I 217 00:12:16,560 --> 00:12:20,880 think ultimately we are have to act as our own gurus these days. 218 00:12:21,680 --> 00:12:25,800 So we need to find someone we can we can receive that those 219 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:29,680 blessing waves from someone who we see as as close to 220 00:12:29,680 --> 00:12:33,040 enlightened as possible. Whether that's Zongsar can say, 221 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:35,360 good luck having a private interview with him. 222 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:38,360 He's huge. Or it's it's someone like your 223 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:41,440 local llama, like, you know, someone who's a little bit more 224 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:46,680 accessible, like Kilon Rimache, an excellent, super amazing 225 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:48,800 teacher who doesn't have that many students. 226 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:50,400 You can have an actual relationship with him. 227 00:12:50,560 --> 00:12:53,480 Sorry if I blew his cover there. I think he's amazing. 228 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:56,640 He came to my house one time and I was like, wow, how fortunate a 229 00:12:56,640 --> 00:13:01,920 great master who is is kind of, I wouldn't say unknown, but not 230 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:04,680 as popular as some makes it accessible. 231 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,640 We need someone like that. And we also need someone we can 232 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:11,120 receive teachings from. We can receive instructions 233 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:13,120 from. Hey, how do I, you know what? 234 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:15,200 My back is hurting. You can't ask the llama that 235 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:17,040 question. And like when I sit like this, 236 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:19,640 what should I do? And you just can't get those. 237 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:22,720 Which way should my the? Head of my bed face. 238 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:26,960 You can't ask a teacher that you know, but you can ask your 239 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:28,720 Kalyanamitra, your spiritual friends. 240 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,320 So I think it's important to have both, and we sort of have 241 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,320 to arrange that in our own little lives these days. 242 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:37,960 And I'll, and I'll even share, you know, I, I've been studying 243 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:40,000 with Keeling Ripsche for over 20 years. 244 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:43,280 And in the beginning, you know, like you have a lot of 245 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:45,600 questions. And so I bothered him with all 246 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:47,760 kinds of questions and lots of interviews. 247 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:50,680 Most of that didn't amount to very much. 248 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:55,440 You know, like the truth is that that most of this I just want to 249 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:59,480 put people's mind at ease that most of everything that I've 250 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:02,000 received from the path and received from doing practice, 251 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,480 the thing that I received from him is what do I do now? 252 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:08,040 What do I do now? What do I do now? 253 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:10,840 Like that was really the only question, you know, like OK, I 254 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:13,960 did, I didn't enduro OK, I did this yet I did this. 255 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:18,280 I did 3 routes. Like he just walked me through 256 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:22,160 the path, but it was the path that really like chewed me up. 257 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:26,280 Like there's no words that came out of his mouth that it that if 258 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:29,680 I didn't hear that, I wouldn't be where I am, right? 259 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:33,520 It was I connected to him with love and devotion and as a 260 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:35,840 represent representative of the lineage. 261 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:40,800 And so that faith helps the practice have more power, right, 262 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:43,840 because it's coming directly from Jigme Lingpa's heart son. 263 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:48,680 And I have faith in that's true. And then I but it was doing the 264 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:52,720 practice that made all of the results that I've ever 265 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:56,320 experienced in my life happen. So I don't want you to feel like 266 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:59,320 there's some magic thing that's going to happen in an interview 267 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:01,920 with a llama. That hasn't been my experience. 268 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:04,360 And you know, maybe for you, I've had, you know, blissful 269 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:08,800 devotional moments with llamas, but they're just like every 270 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:10,840 other experience, like a meditation experience. 271 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:15,600 It's just a passing thing. It the the continuous engagement 272 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:20,440 to practice in a lineage is the most important thing and the 273 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:25,320 thing that really matters. Not so much like having to you 274 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:28,520 know, the llama, knowing you can be helpful because they can kind 275 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:32,360 of tweak the instruction, right? Like maybe you need to work a 276 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:34,400 little with a little more detail or you need to work with a 277 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:36,560 little less detail. Maybe you need a little more 278 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,160 effort or you need a little less effort, this sort of thing. 279 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:41,760 But like Joe said, a Kalianaometra can actually do 280 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:45,000 that even better because Kila Rimshe is never going to know me 281 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,360 close enough. Like Joe knows me, right? 282 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:50,840 Like I'm not going to talk to Keelan Shea about my modern 283 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:54,600 Western problems and stuff like these things are not beyond the 284 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,920 pale to have a conversation with the llama about. 285 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:02,400 So it's so important to have a Kalian Dimitra like Joe saying, 286 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:06,080 I think that somebody who you just respect and who can help 287 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:09,760 you like with the nitty gritty and the details, because it 288 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:12,160 takes too much time to process and get through this stuff. 289 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:14,000 And the llama, even if you have an interview, is kind of like, 290 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:18,840 you know, like they're busy. They, they don't have, So you 291 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:21,480 get, you get the kind of pith instruction from the llama and 292 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:23,800 you get the transmission and the empowerment and you do the 293 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:27,720 practice, but do not feel like you're missing out on anything. 294 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,280 I don't, I don't think maybe Joe, you can speak to this more, 295 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:32,680 but I don't think there's a whole ton you're missing out on 296 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:35,520 by not having like lots of interviews with some Sarkenti 297 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:39,400 Riboche, you know? I, I I can concur entirely. 298 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:44,040 I'm not, I'm to be totally transparent, I'm of a mixed mind 299 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:49,000 because although I, I everything you say, I totally agree with 300 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:53,360 and I think that that is the most practical approach. 301 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:57,200 You see the llama when you you need the llama for two things, 302 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:00,520 empowerment and the transmission of the nature of mind. 303 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:03,880 Those are usually things. If you get the transmission from 304 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:06,240 your neighbor, your neighbor becomes your llama. 305 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:11,680 It's not, you know, the, the transmission of the insight into 306 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:15,319 your true nature is required. That is called the pointing out 307 00:17:15,319 --> 00:17:17,560 instruction or the direct introduction, whatever. 308 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:22,119 And even if you get that from reading a book or from seeing a 309 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:26,960 video, it's important to receive it as part of a living lineage. 310 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,720 And that's something you can, you need to seek out. 311 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:34,240 Same thing with empowerment. Now these days, Gajran, he says 312 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,040 if you receive empowerment online from me, it's the same as 313 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:39,360 in person. So if he says it, it must be 314 00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:41,680 true. But there's some magic to the 315 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:46,080 ceremony and the ritual of being present when a llama gives an 316 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:48,960 empowerment in person and puts the vows on your head or 317 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:52,720 whatever. Not that that is 100% required, 318 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:55,720 but the empowerment is required. So those two things are kind of 319 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,920 indispensable from the llama and everything else could be 320 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:02,720 theoretically done by a spiritual friend, someone who 321 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:04,600 can guide you. And that's, you know, that could 322 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:07,000 be someone who just knows this much more than you or someone 323 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:10,280 who's a llama themselves, You know, you never know, but 324 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:14,840 someone you have a more conventional relationship with, 325 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:18,120 let's say. Now all I'd say this is the 326 00:18:18,120 --> 00:18:19,600 truth. I put it in that box. 327 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:21,720 It's the truth. But then I talked just a little 328 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:25,160 bit about my own experience just because it's also it's my truth, 329 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:29,880 whether it's true or not. I had the good fortune of 330 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:33,080 meeting many llamas. I hope it's not over. 331 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:36,280 But I, as I said in our last podcast, I just came back from 332 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:39,720 India where I got to spend some time with Andrea Lo series, 333 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:47,440 who's an Austrian scholar and a practitioner of real, the real 334 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,200 form of should where you practice in cremation grounds 335 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:53,200 and so forth. And I got quite blown away by 336 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,200 her. And I wouldn't trade those 337 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,360 experiences for anything. I've been to Tibet many times, 338 00:18:59,360 --> 00:19:02,800 and I have teachers in Tibet. And spending time at the feet of 339 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:08,400 lamas who you actually see as enlightened, who are, I hate to 340 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:12,280 say it, but giving off light out of their bodies or assuming 341 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:15,920 various forms or revealing tamas, All of these experiences 342 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:17,880 I myself have been fortunate enough to have. 343 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:19,120 Is it essential? No. 344 00:19:19,120 --> 00:19:20,760 But is it very inspiring? Yes. 345 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:25,840 So for those of you who are like the go getter type, I encourage 346 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:29,680 you, you know, save money, go to India, go to Nepal. 347 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:31,320 Nepal is probably the best place to go. 348 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:33,200 There's still a lot of lamas there. 349 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,800 They are less busy than they are in the States. 350 00:19:36,120 --> 00:19:39,440 There are fewer gateways to jump through and you can have a 351 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:41,800 personal relationship, even if it's 5 minutes and they never 352 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:44,520 know who you are, who cares? You know what, that can be very 353 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:50,240 inspiring because the main teaching of the Dharma is don't 354 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,080 give up. And the the easiest way is to 355 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:56,680 see someone who didn't give up and see what that looks like. 356 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:00,320 Now, if Damien is so fortunate, killing Rinpoche lives two hours 357 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,400 away from him or something very close and you can you have such 358 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,280 a good relationship, you can see him and you can have that. 359 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:10,160 Most of us don't have that. And so maybe it is worth making 360 00:20:10,360 --> 00:20:13,120 a journey somewhere. I want to encourage those who 361 00:20:13,120 --> 00:20:16,360 feel that that interest not to give up on that. 362 00:20:16,360 --> 00:20:18,800 Go do it. You know, it's worked for me. 363 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:21,200 It's been very beneficial. Is it required? 364 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:23,240 No. Is it required to leave your 365 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:24,520 meditation Hut? No. 366 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:28,800 You can sit entirely in your meditation Hut and do it the way 367 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:30,560 the Buddha did. He didn't even have a teacher. 368 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:33,840 He did it. Ramana Maharishi didn't have a 369 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:36,360 teacher, went very far. Amazing, right? 370 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:38,760 I'm not saying that that's not true. 371 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:42,400 I'm but I am. I do having this opportunity 372 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,920 encourage those who have this desire to follow up on and go 373 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,040 for it and see, you know, and see. 374 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:51,200 You don't need to develop this interest if you don't have it, 375 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,360 but if you do, then you know, party, you might as well try. 376 00:20:54,360 --> 00:20:56,760 It has been beneficial to me and it has been. 377 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:01,280 It's kept my enthusiasm. The Tibetan statement about 378 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:05,600 enthusiasm is it's as strong as a, as a yak, but as short as the 379 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:07,160 yak's tail, which is not very long. 380 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,880 And for me, it's stretched my yak's tail a lot longer. 381 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:15,400 Seeing what the end of the path really looks like, seeing what 382 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:19,440 it is when someone spent 50 years living in a cave and and 383 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:23,760 being inspired and drawn out of my ordinary life and ordinary 384 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:25,320 view of things a little bit by that. 385 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:28,280 So I did. I just didn't want to not honor 386 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:30,640 my own experience and say you don't need that shit. 387 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:34,280 You can do it online, which I know maybe you can, hasn't been 388 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,120 my experience, but it certainly can be. 389 00:21:38,120 --> 00:21:41,160 But you do want to have a relationship with someone who's 390 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:43,880 a human. I I want to say one other thing 391 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:47,400 about this. I know a lot of people, it's 392 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:52,160 common to hear this in students of Chogyam Trungpur Rumiche who 393 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:59,560 died in 1987, which is a long time ago and they'd never had 394 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,040 another teacher after that. Some people I know, they just 395 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:04,560 continued to relate to their memory of the teacher. 396 00:22:05,360 --> 00:22:07,560 Hey, I'm on the fence about this. 397 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:10,320 I think it's very good to have somebody in your life you think 398 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:12,880 is more advanced than you who's guiding you on some level, 399 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,760 whether it's full blown guru in the middle somewhere or 400 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:21,200 Kalyanamitra or whatever, someone who can keep you on the 401 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:22,880 straight and narrow. We're not alone. 402 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:27,160 We need a sangha, and so that's something I would like to just 403 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,640 mention. It is not good to have your guru 404 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,240 be the Dalai Lama, let's say. And that's it. 405 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:35,600 And you're just like, I just do what the Dalai Lama says. 406 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:37,320 Is that awesome? Yes. 407 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:39,720 Is it enough for the Bhajiana? No. 408 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:44,040 We do need we are humans, we are social creatures and we need a 409 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,280 relationship with someone, even if it's the vaguest relationship 410 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,760 that when you go up at the end of Tophner Mache's retreat and 411 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:53,120 offer Akat, he says, nice to see you, I'm glad you're here. 412 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:55,000 That's enough. Maybe that's enough. 413 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:59,600 But without anything, then this part gets involved and we just 414 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:01,520 start to have our own little fantasy. 415 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:05,920 And I meet people from time to time who they're, they're 416 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:09,240 revealing termos and stuff, but they have no relationship to a 417 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,280 teacher. Kind of like, come on, you know, 418 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:14,200 this can't be good. So I wanted to just address that 419 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,920 because it's so common. Well, one caveat to what I was 420 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,640 saying earlier. My main point was about the 421 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:24,840 interview portion. I would say the hugest part of 422 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:29,160 my path has just been hanging out, being in in teachings with 423 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,560 Keelan Shay for hours and hours and hours and hours and, and out 424 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:36,320 of that, I got something I can never replace because there's 425 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:38,560 direct transmission mind to mind, right? 426 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,000 But I will say I've done the same thing with Garchinrum 427 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,920 Shay's videos on YouTube and had the same experience. 428 00:23:45,120 --> 00:23:48,480 If you just sit and you are in, you practice being in the nature 429 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,560 of mind and you sit and watch and really have some faith. 430 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:55,680 Don't like half heartedly do it like do your prostrations and 431 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,720 set up your altar and and treat it like you're with him. 432 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:03,360 If you do that, then I believe you totally could get the full 433 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,120 deal, full meal deal from Garchan Rumche. 434 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:10,840 But yes, being in the presence of llamas is so important. 435 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,200 I just want to say that, you know, like, so you go see Sokhne 436 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:15,560 Rumche and you never get a chance to talk to him. 437 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,480 You're not missing out on so much because your question 438 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,720 answer thing, we're as Westerners really hung up on 439 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,320 this question answer thing. And I'm saying that's not the 440 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,480 most important thing. The most important thing is like 441 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:32,120 your faith and and listening. You know the talk, He will give 442 00:24:32,120 --> 00:24:37,040 a teaching directly to you, but when you even if it's to 500 443 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,680 people, if you listen with the right kind of attitude, you'll 444 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:45,800 get a personal teaching directly related to your problems. 445 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:47,800 Beautifully said. Yeah, so. 446 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:49,720 That that was what I wanted to say. 447 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,440 That's very good. And I, I don't want to. 448 00:24:53,120 --> 00:24:55,240 Yeah, it's in the middle somewhere. 449 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:59,160 All of this is important and I think also it's important to 450 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:03,280 recognize, we know we've talked about this many times, but it's 451 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:05,200 very important to keep uppermost of your mind. 452 00:25:05,360 --> 00:25:09,200 Nobody really knows. This is a new Dharma. 453 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,720 The Dharma in Tibet is not the Dharma now, right? 454 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,200 You can't, don't go to The Cave and live with your guru for 20 455 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:16,600 years and then you go do the next thing. 456 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,360 You just, no, it's not happening, right? 457 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,560 So we don't know exactly what's required. 458 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:26,640 We don't know exactly what is what can be left behind and what 459 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:28,360 can't. How much can you get from a 460 00:25:28,360 --> 00:25:30,040 video of Gartner of shape? Maybe everything. 461 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,840 He certainly says when you see me on video, you see me more 462 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,960 than in person because it's my some Bogakai form is there his 463 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,560 words and I have no, I think he's definitely telling the 464 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:42,600 truth. So maybe you can do it that way. 465 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:47,040 The main thing is you are the captain of your own ship in 466 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:48,480 this. We are checking it out. 467 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:52,400 We'll see, you know, if we get a Western Maha Sita, then we'll 468 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,720 have the Dharma will have come to the West. 469 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,400 Until that happens, we're all kind of experimenting. 470 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:01,680 We don't know exactly what leads to what and who's really God and 471 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:03,280 who doesn't. It's very hard to tell. 472 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:07,960 So Damien, I honor your experience and I, and he is, 473 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:12,080 Damien is being, there is something transmitted simply by 474 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:17,160 being in the field of the llama. Now that can be online and it 475 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,480 can't even be through recording. It depends on you. 476 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,080 It may be you're capable of that, maybe you're not. 477 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,680 But it's good to see the llama in person occasionally too. 478 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:28,600 Watching the llama drink tea. That's very profound, right? 479 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,080 And so we don't want to say you don't need that. 480 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:35,280 At the same time, how much of it you need depends on the person. 481 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:40,040 Think of all those stories of those, you know, fairly recent 482 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,360 19th century llamas. Not even llamas, just people who 483 00:26:43,360 --> 00:26:45,360 attain the rainbow body after one teaching. 484 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,360 They saw the llama. They couldn't even read and 485 00:26:48,360 --> 00:26:50,080 write. They received the teaching, they 486 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,160 got something and they they took it to heart and they practiced 487 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:54,600 and their body is all in the light. 488 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:58,240 That's a lot more than me. So yeah, who's seen lots of 489 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,400 llama? So you know, it depends on the 490 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,160 person. Yeah, yeah. 491 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,600 I think those, you see always the stories, it's always just 492 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,000 somebody's incredible faith. And all they did was like the 493 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,200 Mani mantra or the Vajra guru mantra, and that's all they did. 494 00:27:10,360 --> 00:27:13,120 And but because their faith was incredible and they made the 495 00:27:13,120 --> 00:27:15,560 connection, it took them all the way to the path. 496 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,960 But before we get to the end of this episode, I want to give you 497 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:23,080 a chance, Joe, to talk about the nuts and bolts of having a 498 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,880 teacher because I think that's some of where this question came 499 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,000 from. Like, you know, of course, 500 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,560 people are curious about the pitfalls of what if your guru 501 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:34,400 turns out to do terrible things or how do you relate? 502 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,120 How do you have faith? What happened? 503 00:27:36,120 --> 00:27:39,120 Yeah, these things. I can only give, I mean, we only 504 00:27:39,120 --> 00:27:42,440 have a couple minutes, but I'll give a general idea of this from 505 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:47,000 my experience. It's good to check the llama 506 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,760 out, right? And that means to check the good 507 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,640 and bad, the the general situation before you make a full 508 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:54,600 commitment. But once you have you feel like 509 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:59,440 this person is really what I want, then best case scenario is 510 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,400 to have a situation where you're face to face with llama, whether 511 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,120 it's through the Internet or whatever, but where the llama is 512 00:28:05,120 --> 00:28:08,960 paying attention to you and to request, please accept me as 513 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:13,120 your disciple. This is a key thing that makes a 514 00:28:13,120 --> 00:28:16,160 special link between you and the teacher. 515 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:20,200 If the teacher says OK, even if you never see them again, you 516 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:24,880 made a karmic connection that is going to take you out of samsara 517 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,120 eventually no matter who the llama is or whatever, You know, 518 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,280 I do encourage people to check the scene out because there are 519 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:35,040 a lot of scumbags out there and a lot of most of the scumbags 520 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,240 are not full blown scumbags. They're mixed, right? 521 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,520 They're not naming names in this particular episode, but I love 522 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,240 doing that. It's good to call people out, 523 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:47,360 but you know, the many of them really are lineage holders. 524 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:49,120 They really do have all these things. 525 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,920 They really did do the retreats and they still are acting in 526 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:58,440 ways that are maybe not in necessarily good for their 527 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:00,440 students in any kind of conventional sense. 528 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,040 And we've seen this a lot lately. 529 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,560 So it is upon the student to be careful. 530 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,160 The llama is not being careful in that way. 531 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,240 So traditionally the llama's supposed to check out the 532 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:14,320 student, Students supposed to check out the llama. 533 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:16,840 These days, the llamas are too busy to do anything. 534 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,840 But if you feel the connection, if you do make that, if you feel 535 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,520 that strongly enough, you say please accept me as your 536 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:25,400 disciple. That's like the link one, 537 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,120 whether that leads to studying with them all the time or not, 538 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,880 in your heart you now you feel it. 539 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:34,880 I remember being encouraged to do that with Till Gorge. 540 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:36,520 I didn't know anything about Badriana. 541 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:40,520 I did that and he said something that has maybe the most 542 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,080 important thing he ever said to me. 543 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,360 You can be my disciple if you practice hard. 544 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,800 That's what he said. And for some reason that got me 545 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:54,080 to do my nundro 4 times. That got me to do unending 546 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,400 numbers of mantras. Have they really benefited me? 547 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:58,920 Who can say. But man, did I take that 548 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,040 seriously. I'm not allowed to be a student 549 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,440 if I don't practice hard. And I thought that was pretty 550 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,040 cool. So me, that's the one thing I'd 551 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:11,000 recommend in terms of that. Once that happens, you see, I, I 552 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:14,320 would recommend, I don't know recommend, but I would encourage 553 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,120 people to be careful about taking on too many 554 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,680 responsibilities. Your responsibility is to attain 555 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:25,600 enlightenment, not to become, you know, the head of some 556 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,720 organization that your llama is tangentially related to because 557 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:31,280 it's convenient for them or something. 558 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,080 I'm not saying you shouldn't do what the teacher says, but a lot 559 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:41,160 of people have this idea that by opening a center or doing some 560 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:45,320 taking on some role, they will then have this super close 561 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,480 relationship to the teacher in which they'll get all these 562 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,440 instructions that definitely does not work. 100% no. 563 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:56,760 If you feel like serving the teacher through doing some task, 564 00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,560 I think that's great, but don't expect that that's going to lead 565 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:02,840 you to get instructions. In fact, it's going to go the 566 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,120 opposite because the teacher, once you're in that role, 567 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,560 especially if you're doing a good job, the last thing they 568 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,240 want is you to be wanting to go to three retreat. 569 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,640 Think about Heidi Koppel. Heidi Koppel is a student of 570 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,800 Chokin Emerimache. She's been around that scene 571 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:18,760 since I got involved with Tolko Urgent. 572 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,880 She went on and got a PhD. She ran the wrong Genesha 573 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,520 Institute that teaches all these classes, released all these 574 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:26,920 books. Amazing super smart woman the 575 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,760 whole time she want to do a three-year retreat since I met 576 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:35,280 her in the in the 90s and then she just finished her three-year 577 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,600 retreat after many years of begging Chokinima. 578 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,080 He was like, actually you're doing a little too much good 579 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,000 right now. You can't do the retreat now. 580 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:45,280 I'm sure there's more to it. I'm I'm being a little bit 581 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:50,560 superficial, but that's an important thing is you do not 582 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:52,920 get enlightened by not practicing. 583 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:54,600 You get enlightened by practicing. 584 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:59,000 So all in your relationship with the teacher, you want to be 585 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,800 careful about not taking on too many responsibilities that will 586 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:04,880 prevent you from actualizing the path. 587 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,960 What you do on your cushion, I hate to say it, everybody thinks 588 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:10,920 integration's most important. Well, not if you don't have 589 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,520 anything to integrate and you're only going to integrate it by 590 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:17,960 sitting. So I have been lucky not I'm so 591 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,440 stupid. I do not have any skills that 592 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,160 that almost can manipulate. So I have not had to do too 593 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:27,400 much, but it's very dangerous to get involved in running centers 594 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,480 or being a fundraiser or any kind of thing like that. 595 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:31,880 All of a sudden that's all you're doing. 596 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,680 That's super samsaric more than everything. 597 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,560 Plus it's mixed with your Samaya because you're working with 598 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:39,160 people. This is a whole episode. 599 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:40,400 You have to be careful about this. 600 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:41,760 We should talk about this sometime. 601 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:46,440 Main thing, be close enough to the teacher to be able to make 602 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,720 it impossible for them not to answer your questions, but be 603 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,520 far enough that you're not on the hook for a whole bunch of 604 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,560 time of doing things so you don't have any time to practice. 605 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:57,520 That's what I have to say about that. 606 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:02,080 Yeah, And tailing off what you just said, I think the trick, 607 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:06,440 the thing, the main thing is go to your llama, say what should I 608 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:10,920 do? Then go do it and then come back 609 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:15,000 and say I did it. Like, this is how, because a lot 610 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:19,120 of times they'll be like, they don't trust people, but Tibetans 611 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:23,480 in general are less quick to develop close relationships with 612 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:25,960 people. They tend to be more standoffish 613 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:30,600 than Westerners. And the first thing that they 614 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,560 give you, if you have to push them often to even give you 615 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:38,840 something to do, you really insist I want to do a practice 616 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,200 and I want to connect to you. And like Joe said, I want to be 617 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,320 your student, you know, asking that question. 618 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,440 But then whatever they ask you to do, if they say do Nundro, 619 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:50,320 then go do Nundro and come back and say, I did it, you know, 620 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:53,480 because this will really demonstrate your seriousness. 621 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:56,400 And then they'll really be impelled to keep giving you the 622 00:33:56,400 --> 00:34:01,440 teachings, because if you don't do the first thing they ask, 623 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:05,000 then why would they continue to give you more teachings? 624 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:10,639 Very true, like I this is going on and on, but when I met 625 00:34:10,639 --> 00:34:13,960 Telkuwarj and I, I was encouraged by other teacher 626 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,719 other they were teachers, but they were also students of his 627 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,280 to request an under transmission. 628 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,600 I didn't want to do the nundro. In fact, when I got to Nepal 629 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:24,840 when it before I met to where I was like, there's no way I'm 630 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:26,400 doing that. That sounds insane. 631 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,000 No way. All of a sudden after meeting 632 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:30,440 was like, I'll do whatever you said. 633 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,880 I went to see him and I did say please give me an under 634 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,199 transmission. He said, OK, do this one and 635 00:34:37,199 --> 00:34:39,920 then come back and see me. I think that at that point you 636 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,600 probably if he even had thoughts, he thought was like 637 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,719 never see this guy again kind of feeling right because they give 638 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,840 it to lots of people. They don't do it And I I was 639 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:53,239 told that it was necessary to do it four times. 640 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:57,320 I don't know where this idea came from, but I went home and 641 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:01,040 in the period of a year or two, I did it 2 times and I went back 642 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,280 to Seattle origin. It was right before he passed 643 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:04,360 away. He was not well. 644 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:09,320 And when I told him I had done it twice, he was like, really? 645 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,440 And I was like, yeah, you said to do it and I'm your student. 646 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:16,360 I do what you tell me to do. He was really like, whoa. 647 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:20,640 And he told his translator, who's a friend of mine, how can 648 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,160 I? I requested an empowerment after 649 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:27,160 that, and he had been requested this empowerment by many other 650 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,600 people in recent months. And he had been like, I'm not 651 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,840 well, no. And then when my friend, the 652 00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,120 translator said, what do you want to do about this? 653 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:41,560 He said, how can I say no? And then that really put me in 654 00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:43,120 there. And it was because of what I 655 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:44,920 did. So I want to say that's very 656 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:46,720 good. If you do what the llama says, 657 00:35:46,720 --> 00:35:51,240 if he says OK, do 100,000 Mani mantras and you don't do it, 658 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,000 then they, they know right then this person's not serious. 659 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,960 I'm not going to spend any time on them because they don't love 660 00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:01,320 all beings, but because come on. So it's very important. 661 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:02,760 That's well said. Thank you. 662 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,840 And and it is their vow, right? Like as a llama, they're, they 663 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,240 have even heavier vows than students, right? 664 00:36:09,240 --> 00:36:11,560 Like that's why they're partly why they're careful about what 665 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:15,240 teachings they give and who they teach to and all of these 666 00:36:15,240 --> 00:36:18,160 things. But their vow is that somebody 667 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,520 who's serious and capable that they give them everything they 668 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:25,560 it says that it says you have to give them all the teachings for 669 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,920 a student who's a worthy vessel, but you have to show you're a 670 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:33,000 worthy vessel by doing the thing that they ask you to do. 671 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,400 And inevitably it's Nundro. So once again, here's Joe and 672 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,000 I'm telling you, go to your Nundro. 673 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,280 They love that. Yep. 674 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,720 But I have to say too that Nundro is the foundation of your 675 00:36:44,720 --> 00:36:48,480 relationship to your llama, that this is what that does. 676 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:52,600 Like one of the main functions of completing your hundred 677 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:57,080 thousands is it foments that deep relationship to the lineage 678 00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:00,680 and to your llama. This is the the access point. 679 00:37:00,720 --> 00:37:03,880 And you will find that when you've done that many that you 680 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:07,400 are now connected in a way that no other thing would do. 681 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:09,680 And that's my opinion. Well said. 682 00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:13,040 Yes, well, we've, we've gone on for a long time. 683 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,000 I hope this is helpful to you. I hope you appreciate this. 684 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,040 I know it's a vast topic and we could talk about it more. 685 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:23,880 I wanted to say one thing about when you see your teacher do 686 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,840 something that makes you irritated or you think is 687 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,720 inappropriate or something, because it's almost inevitable 688 00:37:29,720 --> 00:37:33,360 if you around anybody long enough that something like this 689 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:35,880 will happen. In fact, part of the teacher 690 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:39,800 student relationship is you working with your feeling of 691 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,360 irritation or frustration based on your llama, right? 692 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:46,960 Like they're going to do something that's going to make 693 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:52,160 you feel and, and so to recognize that this is the path, 694 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:54,680 right? So when that happens, whether 695 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:58,840 it's something really disturbing and there's total talks out 696 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,960 there about what to do if your llama does something big, I'm 697 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,880 not going to get into that. But when your teacher 698 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,280 inevitable, you see a human side, they they, they snap at 699 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:13,520 somebody, you hear something and just like, ah, you know, 700 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:17,360 recognize this as the mirror you're working with, right? 701 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:23,800 Like this is the practice of transforming your vision about 702 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:25,960 the world into something more pure. 703 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:32,400 So let that recognition, try to see them as a manifesting 704 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:35,640 enlightened qualities to really work with that. 705 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:37,920 And this is, you know, like I said, probably a whole nother 706 00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:42,200 episode and I want you to comment on it, Joe, But but to 707 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,600 really see that as enlightened activity and train yourself to 708 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:47,280 do it. And it takes a little bit of 709 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:52,680 work, but I think that this is an essential and key point of 710 00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:56,200 this whole. And that's much easier to do if 711 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,400 you're not super close. They say the llama's like a 712 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:00,800 fire. If you get close, you're going 713 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,640 to get burned. And that is 100% true because 714 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:07,080 all these llamas, all the ones I've met anyway, are encased in 715 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,960 human bodies made out of karma, whether they're conscious 716 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,560 rebirths or some sort of other sort of tolko. 717 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:17,360 And they tend to do things that are pretty human and humans are 718 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:21,720 pretty gross. So it it is very important to 719 00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:25,760 modulate and manage how close you are to the scene. 720 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:29,440 Don't read a bunch of stuff, don't do a bunch of research 721 00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:31,640 after you made your decision before it's fine. 722 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:36,280 Once you once you did that, don't look for faults. 723 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:39,000 We'll find them everywhere. Yeah, yeah. 724 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,000 And, and basically the my advice is just treat it the same way 725 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:43,600 you treat thoughts and meditation. 726 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,680 If the thought comes up, oh the teacher, blah, blah blah, just 727 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:50,520 let it go. Just train yourself in letting 728 00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:54,000 go of your reactions to anything having to do. 729 00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:56,440 And this includes your Vajra brothers and sisters too. 730 00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:01,200 This is the essence of Samaya. We don't get to indulge in 731 00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:05,760 criticism, competition, jealousy, irritation with our 732 00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,320 llamas or with our Vajra brothers and sisters. 733 00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:10,800 So. The training ground as of 734 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:14,840 Audriana practitioner is like I said just like in basic shamata 735 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,080 meditation when the thought comes up that persons blah blah 736 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:22,200 blah blah or then the lamas doing this, just notice it and 737 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:25,640 let it pass and that is training in pure vision. 738 00:40:25,720 --> 00:40:29,200 This connects to not don't grab it. 739 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:33,840 That's the the instruction. Don't hold on to it and and 740 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,400 wrestle with it. That'll just make you crazy. 741 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:38,800 And like Joe said, once you've received empowerment from the 742 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,200 llama, there's no going back. You don't get to go check on 743 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:43,840 them and go maybe I didn't make the wrong decision. 744 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:46,960 That's bad news bears. So just don't do it and just 745 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:51,800 stay focused on maintaining your pure vision. 746 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,440 And then like I said, there's there's lots of talks from much 747 00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,360 greater minds than me online where you can find about what to 748 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,160 do if there's a controversy around your llama. 749 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:04,640 So we won't get into that. But thank you again for liking, 750 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:07,760 sharing, subscribing, watching, being a part of this community. 751 00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:10,000 We appreciate you so much. Thank you, Joe. 752 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,640 Thank you, Ricky, to our producer and we'll see you in a 753 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:14,520 couple weeks.