Music. Hello, welcome to the extra
credits of Ethan bergers feature debut the line.
This is one of the most interesting indie films of 2024.
A film that explores a toxic underbelly, a fraternity life,
with a sharp, unsparing commentary about some men caught
up in this harsh college institution where status and
privilege and loyalty come at a very high price.
And I think for many viewers, this movie might be might remind
them of different takes on fraternity life in cinema
before. But to me, there is a really
original tone here that I'm excited to talk about.
A movie that is really reflective on hyper masculinity
and how young white men are conditioned at young ages to
protect their identities or privilege and status at all
costs. So I think this is a really
impressive cautionary tale and even more impressive feature
debut. So to learn more about the
making of this movie and to talk about the the the themes and
characters and narrative of this movie, I'm thrilled to be joined
by the Co writer and director of the line, Ethan Berger.
Ethan, thank you so much for coming on.
How are you doing this week? I'm doing really good this week
and it's a pleasure to be on with you and I appreciate you
having me. Yeah, of course, I'm excited to
get into this conversation. I think before we dive into the
heavier narrative of the line, I'd love to hear a bit about
your filmmaking journey to how you got this film made, where
you started. Can you share a little bit about
the process of what it's been? Like, I know that I believe you
first started thinking about this script or writing it almost
a decade ago or over a decade ago.
So yeah, tell us a little bit about your career, where you
started as a writer and director, and how you, you know,
finally got this project made. We wrote the first draft, Alex
Russick and I'm my Co writer in 2012 and we rewrote it every
year until we made it in December of 2021 and January
2022. And it actors started getting
involved around 2018 and it was still a movie that people were
hesitant to finance. And when we were actually able
to get the money in 20/21, it was incredibly exciting for me
and we were able to like get a few more actors to sign on and
I'm just happy that that we finished.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a it's a wonderful
final product. I love, I really love the movie
a lot. I had a good time with it these
past few weeks just re watching it, kind of prepping for this
conversation and made me think back about different movies I've
seen that are dealing with some challenging subject matter with
fraternity life. And usually I think,
unfortunately, Hollywood depicts fraternity to life in ways that
it can be almost empowering to to young men who are acting in
these ways or emboldening that kind of behavior or trying to
create a cautionary tale that isn't totally successful or some
kind of satirical story. So let's talk a little bit, I
guess, about Greek life then, 'cause as you know, listeners
know that Greek life is not like a monolith.
There are many inclusive communities across American
College campuses. But I think I've heard you say
before that fraternities have been depicted in extreme ways of
popular culture where, again, like you can kind of see movies
like emboldening toxic behavior. Can you talk about what inspired
you to take this approach and why you thought it was important
to maybe pivot from those more traditional depictions of
fraternity life on American College campuses?
When when we initially wrote wrote the script, I feel like we
were most inspired by like Mean Streets and like Paul Thomas
Anderson movies where characters are trying to reconstruct a
familial unit in a different context only to realize that
there are like a certain another set of issues that come along
with that. Like fraternities kind of were
an example of of something that we recognized in the movies we
liked. But then as we continue to
rewrite it, you know, as you age, you're you're you get
smarter, I feel like. And we would just revisit the
material and things in the news started happening and always
were happening that were eerily similar to what happened, what
happens in the script. And it kind of just, like, I
don't know, gave us the sense that this story was still worth
pursuing and that, like, you know, sometimes fictional
stories can influence people. And you know, if we look at
fraternity membership, it it skyrockets after Animal House.
And I think that, you know, the way it's fraternities are
depicted in animal house have have kind of like been repeated.
And we wanted to make a different sort of movie about
fraternities that drew inspiration from, like I said,
Paul Thomas Sanderson movies, Full Metal Jacket, a bunch of
stuff. I mean, when we were for the
scenes where all the pledges are dancing, we used a lot of
cabaret references. The Bob Fosse movie.
Yeah, so. Certainly saw a lot of those
references in there. It's funny you said that about
Animal House. It reminded me, I was thinking
about this last night. It reminded me of a Tony Scott's
reaction to how Top Gun had such an impact on the American
military and had people want to sign up.
And his commentary was kind of trying to navigate that issue in
more nuanced ways. And that sort of reminds me of
what happens there. And I do think a lot of movies
have tried swing away from fraternity life and not exactly
sure how to expose it. You have things like Project X
that take that kind of like hyper comedic look at those
situations that almost elevate those situations.
But they become almost in these weird ways, dreams for
unfortunately, like young boys across America and high schools
to go to college one day and act in these ways because the movies
aren't actually getting across anything that is maybe a
provocation in that way. And I do think your movie
successfully does that. And it is it is blunt in ways
that I think it really needs to be.
It reminds me a little bit of how the substance right now is a
great movie in theaters, a movie that is a deeply different in
terms of like the themes of the stories.
But there is a bluntness to that movies allegory that I think is
really necessary in a a social story like yours, The line.
So, yeah, I think those those those comparisons are really
apt. I also thought about, OK, well,
what are some of the movies that have depicted fraternity life in
toxic ways that almost use frats as or Greek life as these kind
of microcosms for broken institutions across the United
States? And the one I think most
recently did it for me tonally that really captured something a
little bit like a dark underbelly of these cultures
that you really don't see unless you're in those environments.
Is David Fincher's The Social Network.
And it's so funny that you said, you know, Paul Thomas Anderson
or Scorsese with Mean Streets, cuz I feel something a little
bit a little darker, a little grimier about the energy of this
movie that reminded me of something.
Fincher asks. Is that is that right?
On, I mean, I love the Social Network.
I love it. Like I remember seeing it in
theaters. I'm so impressed that he was
able to make a movie or that and the whole crew and cast were
able to make a movie that that good about somebody in popular
culture, like in the moment. Also, it's not like after the
fact. But yeah, I mean, my whole thing
is like that movie does its thing and you know, I definitely
like the way music like works in that movie is definitely
something that inspires me. Like I feel like it gives it
emotional like Underbelly that like I feel like Daniel Ross and
score in our movie does like I, I think and that's but like,
like, you know, it was definitely something we looked
at for certain scenes. But yeah, Harvard is a different
environment than the University of Oklahoma when we were where
we were shooting. And you have to kind of
consider. And we also wanted to make it
more like a state school and less like Ivy League, which I
feel like we're not even necessarily a state school, but
like, you know, somewhere that feels more relatable to
everyone. Yeah, absolutely.
There is a kind of middle class accessibility to the school and
I think it's interesting the spectrum of like income or
wealth rather like within the the fraternity is very clear
through like the Tom character who kind of has his own checks
right from his mother at the at the table about maybe what he
doesn't realize. He has his privileges in terms
of tuition being paid for and him kind of living in this
almost like fantasy that he might be this a working class
kid just because he has a job versus like lower middle class
kid who's in an environment with elite kids who might come from
like very wealthy ruling class families.
So that is an interesting dynamic.
So let's talk about. The oh, wait, can I say, can I
just to point out, because you're on to something really
important, which is also his his mother points out that he works
at A at a pizza restaurant. And then the subsequent scene,
he tells Beach Miller's character that he's been working
for a friend of his mother's who's a realtor.
And I feel like that's a really important sequence of events
that, with his mother calling him Forrest Gump, give the sense
that he is 19 years old and he isn't comfortable in his skin.
Right, exactly. And I definitely want to talk
about Tom and how you navigate that character in terms of the
sympathy versus the judgement of the character, because I think
it is a fine line in the movie. Does it so well.
So you have an incredible ensemble cast here, Alex Wolff
of Hereditary, Lewis Pullman of Top Gun, Maverick, Halle Bailey
of Little Mermaid. Now Austin Abrams gives a stand
out supporting role performance here as one of the most
interesting actors of his generation.
And then you also had a soon to be, I think, generational talent
of the late Angus Cloud of Euphoria fame to many of our
listeners who sadly passed away far too soon.
And you had other up and comers too that stood out like Bo
Mitchell, who I'd love to talk about.
And there's some great character actors in this movie like
Malkovich, notably, and some others.
So I love to hear about how you went about choosing this cast
because it's a really impressive indie film cast.
Not to say that that the screenplay doesn't just, you
know, elicit that kind of response from actors who want to
come work on this this movie and this kind of like fraternity as
a microcosm for a broken America.
I think that is fascinating. And it's a really tight
screenplay. It might be one of the best
aspects of this movie, just the story alone and how you kind of
take an amalgamation of current events and and squeeze it into
this film. But it it it's really cool to
see a movie like this that I think, you know, I think you
said it was made a few years ago now that stars such great up and
coming actors, if not already well established actors at this
point. It remind me a little bit of and
maybe I thought about it because tonally and thematically it was
a little bit similar. But there was a film I don't
know if you saw a couple years ago called American Anime
Animals, starring Evan Peters and Barry Keowen, among others.
And that had a cast that was about to pop off as well in a
similar story where I think they caught on to a screenplay that
was playing with, you know, similar ideas.
But what was it like, you know, casting this movie and also
being on set with this kind of cast?
It's interesting because, you know, if you keep in mind when
we shot it, everybody wasn't as we were shooting the movies,
Season 2 of Euphoria was coming out.
Angus and Austin's lives were changing in real time when
Little Mermaid hadn't come out and you know, so, but we were
certainly like aware of everybody's potential and basic.
Basically, after I was able to get a producer involved, he took
me to agencies and they gave me a list of actors who we could
send the screenplay to. And at the time, for instance,
Hereditary was about to come out and the second I saw it, we
offered the Partalis Wolf because it would, it was to me,
he he that that part is insane and says it all.
And he's, he's able to evoke emotion through expressions and
he just is really gifted. And that movie is a great movie.
And I wanted to make a movie with somebody like him who was
the right age but also who had made a great movie.
And he had Austin Abrams do a reading with his friends and
suggested Austin Abrams to me and was very active in the
process because he felt passionate about it.
Yeah, I don't. So.
Well, I just also want to say, like, he also wanted to go to
University of South Carolina before we shot.
And we went, which is where we met Nick and Mason and Sal, who
are in the movie playing fraternity brothers.
They were. They were living in Columbia at
the University of South Carolina in a fraternity there.
And we met them, told them about the movie and they decided to be
in it. Interesting.
Yeah. I mean, you can feel the living
experience of some of the young men for sure.
That's kind of similar to how I think Paine cast the holdovers
recently about a year ago. OK, so let's talk about Alex
Wolff for a second. I'm so glad to hear that I have
a an RE Astor stand such as myself on the podcast.
That's great. And that is, you know, that
performance from Alex Wolff is very important to me as a big
horror fan, but also like as the Nickelodeon generation and Alex
Wolf being part of that naked brothers band, which I don't
know if you're familiar with, but like I've had a long life
of, of watching the the Wolf brothers and seeing him take off
like this is pretty amazing. I think he's evolved now into
one of the more like recent horror icon actors, especially
now with Quiet Place coming out recently and, you know,
obviously the work on Hereditary.
He's had a really diverse filmography in between.
But I think Tom might be one of his best performances, which is
wild to say because he's had so many, you know, eclectic roles.
But this might be one of the most challenging roles I've seen
him take on too, that I think he really nails, which he plays a
character who is a type of guy that I certainly knew in school,
someone who I watched from afar that I was like, you know, just
observing. You can kind of see these kind
of guys stuck between their personal aspirations and
ambitions with their own morals or ethics, kind of friends with
different groups. So how did you work with Alex to
bring out that vulnerability for Tom while also keeping that
internal conflict and also that kind of privilege of him
navigating this toxic world of the fraternity and loving it
until. It's too late.
I mean you, you nailed it. He is a character who doesn't
realize that he has agency and he understood the script.
He understood the arc of the character and he is hungry and
gives 110% and wanted to have, he acknowledged that he isn't
that guy and that he had to have conversations with people in
order to go there. And he just put in the extra
work and, you know, time for you to say that about this
performance being one of his better ones is like, you know,
an honor because I, I think like movies like Hereditary and Pig
are so good. I like the Cat in the moon a
lot. His movie.
I mean, I think that he, you know, I don't know, he bring,
he, he gives his characters like like a heart, you know, and, and
he was a really exciting person to work with.
Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a very
challenging role, I think, especially with the accent.
Let me ask you about that because I think that was a
really interesting move. I think this movie is very
tragic. I'm trying my best not to spoil
it for listeners who haven't seen it because it hasn't
released wide yet. When we drop this episode
probably. And you know, I'm sure when
people are watching this in advance post theaters, they'll
be able to stream it as well. So I'll just be careful with
spoilers. And if we want to spoil, we can
just give everybody a warning. But Austin Abrams has one of the
more challenging kind of beats of this movie because he has to
kind of go up and down with his emotions.
He's relatable till he's not. And then he's a relatable again
at the very end. And he I think gives he is the
most the biggest standout scene of the movie.
That really kind of shocked me even on rewatch again, just
watching the intricacies and nuances of what he's doing with
his reaction to some of the fraternity kids at the end of
the movie. But when it comes to Tom and
that accent, it brings a level of humor to the movie.
And then it won rewatch. I I realized there was a lot
more humor than I had first recognized because tonally the
movie is just kind of it's really kind of provoking you and
it's immersive and really interesting ways and fun ways
for somebody like me who loves to be taken over by their
movies. Like I have a whiplash vinyl
behind me right now. And that that movie, what
Chazelle does by immersing you into the world of Andrew.
So impressive. And I, I get feelings of that in
the line for sure, but they're the those moments of levity,
like having Tom go in and out of his accent is really
interesting. So can you speak to that a
little bit? Because I think that is a really
interesting choice. I'd love to hear if it's.
If that was on your end or if that was on no wolf's end.
It's a little bit of both. It's, it's an accent he's using
to fit in. It's like kind of code switching
and he, Alex, I think the idea might have been Alex's
initially. And then to me, it was made OK
by the a like environment that we were in, which I think led
Alex to want to do that. And then also by Sherry
O'terry's line where she calls him Forrest Gump.
So we're aware as an audience that it's it's something he's
putting on to fit in. And then another important thing
which happens but is subtle is him dropping it two years later,
which also happens and it isn't something and and at a certain
point in the bar scene we had a line from Mitch where he calls
him out on his accent being gone, but we felt it would be
best to omit that and keep it subtle.
Yeah, no, I mean, we picked it up on 1st watch actually.
So it's really well done. It's like, it's subtle, but it's
there. It adds to that themes of the
movie, especially about, you know, made me reflect on 2nd
Watch actually, about how much of this movie is about gender
identity and constructs and young men performing masculinity
in different ways and not really having any kind of positive
forms of their identity they can look to or hold on to.
That gives them some kind of outlet.
And I think that Alex Wolf gets that across really well when
he's speaking to his partner at the end of the movie or somebody
he hooked up with throughout the film.
And that was really fascinating because he kind of, he doesn't
really know how to express himself.
He knows that he's kind of in the wrong for coming to someone
last second like this. And that was a really it.
It kind of fed into this movie's ultimate through line, I think
from my perspective about, you know, the standout themes of how
a lot of these young men are silent and complicit in the face
of like, very violent things that are happening at these
fraternities in fear for their own cachet, their status.
And by the end, it becomes really clear that, Tom, this
character you've been following has really been going through
this cautionary tale as somebody who is both a a victim in a lot
of ways, but also a serious participant in this dangerous
cycle that demands like examination from the audience.
And I think it was so smart to cast Wolf because I think not
only do we have that kind of meta relationship to him as a as
a young star in American culture, but also he just evokes
so much vulnerability even in a a character like that that's
trying to present as very stoic or to add an accent, which is
really interesting. So can you speak to how he or
you developed that tension of the story of Tom?
Basically, this is this is I think the hardest thing of the
movie, which is Tom's character arc, which is like this fine
line of wanting your audience to sympathize with this character
to a certain extent, especially in regards to his foil of the
Mitch Miller character, the roommate.
But you don't want the audience necessarily to forgive Tom's
convenient dissonance, for lack of a better word, of how long he
kind of wants to stay in the fraternity until it's too late.
Like he's it benefits it benefits him right Until it
doesn't. And I think the the Bailey
character becomes pretty essential at the end to show
maybe how the audience. Is.
Reflecting on Tom. Yeah, like, I feel like she's
essential from the beginning because he idealizes her from
the beginning. He thinks that their whole thing
is something it isn't, even though she makes very clear to
him that she's only interested in a casual thing.
Yes, And and then she's just consistent and she does what
he's incapable of doing, which is just remove herself.
Like like he cannot go to the retreat.
He cannot be in K&A. And yet he keeps being pulled
from one thing to the next until he's a participant and it's too
late. And, and when he tries and
makes, you know, when he tries to like make her a part of it by
telling her the story, she just shuts him down and, you know,
tells him she has her own life to live.
And so I feel like, you know, that's why the character's
important. And I feel like, you know, we
try and preface that in their interaction at her place earlier
in the movie in which she asks about his family.
And you realize his father's passed away and nobody in
fraternity has asked him about his family.
And he thinks she's pausing to accommodate him when she's just
pausing to think of her answer. And it's like she doesn't exist
to accommodate him. And I think that, like, you
know, one thing we tried to have Alex do is like, like, you know,
hit the way he behaves with his mother at the very beginning is
very different than the way he is in the fraternity immediately
after. Like he's he's, you know, somber
and talking kind of down to his mother.
And then when he's in the fraternity, he's wide eyed and
quiet and smiling a lot. And you get the sense that he
hasn't, like, necessarily found his voice, but that he feels a
part of something that doesn't exist at home.
And then over the course of the narrative, as this war unfolds
between his, you know, roommate and best friend of one year,
Mitch, and Getty's a pledge who won't conform or do any of the
things you're supposed to do to be in the fraternity, Tom starts
to question everything. And I feel like, you know,
Getty's character, I mean, you've brought up so many things
that I want to touch on. I mean, I feel like, you know,
the one thing that this movie is trying to say about young men is
that we, like, use our own trauma to, like, justify
inflicting it on to the next generation when that's not OK.
Or, you know, it is about a culture of silence that
surrounds fraternities, which are, you know, incredibly
influential. Millions of people were members
of and yet remain segregated for the last 100 years.
Like And you know, to me like, the only way to progress is to
acknowledge that a problem exists.
Yeah, absolutely. I think the movie certainly
provokes that conversation. Like I I mean, me and Callus, my
Co host, talked about that last night in preparation for this
episode today and talked about how this movie sometimes films
like this need to really ground you in these really challenging
situations, but have these larger than life ideas, but
still keep you grounded to to hold on to that commentary, to
not lose it while still keeping the tension that you you deserve
from a movie that you know you're paying money to go see.
That should be entertaining. But then this is one of those
kind of like, I love that you reference mean streets, one of
those feel bad entertainment films.
That is certainly you're going to you're going to, you know,
grab the edges of your seats. You're going to even laugh at
some jokes. You're going to feel very
uncomfortable at the end, especially in the way that the
camera is looking at like Austin Abrams character, for example.
And it's for the better because I think this movie deserves that
kind of, let's say, like, higher level conversation after you
leave. This is something you'd want to
talk about with your friends or this is something you'd want to
recommend to really anybody to watch Because this is
unfortunately, a film that is timeless yet feels very
contemporary because of everything that's been going on
in the news, you know, over the really the last decades.
I believe this movie takes place in 2014.
And I think you even show real footage.
Is that right at the end of the movie?
So yes, that is correct. So in order to be accurate, we
showed the movie to the parents of Timothy Piazza, who
tropically passed away at Penn State, and they were on board
with us using his image at the end in the news footage to
convey the idea. Like, even though this is a
fictional movie, The problem is very real.
And I think that's a reason why we wanted the movie to be kind
of like unapologetic is like it kind of has to be in order to
get its point across. Yep, absolutely.
And I guess that leads me to before we get to our final
question here, the, the Tom and Mitch like the foil relationship
they have or the parallel, you've already spoken about the
conversation they had at dinner where Tom is sort of negotiating
his status to fit in with his father.
But what what was your what were some inspirations for that
dynamic? Because that I think is one of
the more interesting relationships of the movie,
because I think you do such a good job with, again, the Gray
morals of the film, the kind of sympathy of these characters
until you can no longer sympathize with them.
I think Mitch Miller in particular.
I believe the actor's name is Bo Miller.
Is that correct? Bo Mitchell, yeah.
Bo Mitchell, I apologize. And the the the performance, the
actor I'm not super familiar with, but the performance is
extraordinary. I'm sure I'll see more of him.
But what he also had to do, and a lot of these actors have to do
again, is balance that fine line of like playing with the
audience's sympathy of like what we are have been in our own way,
like condition to forgive these these people for up until we are
no longer able to forgive them anymore.
And this is the character who really has the heel turn and the
the actor who gets I think the the loudest performance at the
end of the movie. But he does it in a way where
I've still feel grounded and equally just like terrified by
the character and the way he's speaking or the choices he's
making. And that that dynamic with Tom
becomes unfortunately, like very relatable, I think especially
for a lot of young men who have been put in these positions
where they are across from more volatile men and they didn't
realize who they were in a room with until it's too late.
And I think that's where where Tom finds himself.
So you can you speak a little bit to the that that dynamic
between those two characters? Yeah, totally.
I mean, I just want to point out that at the end is important
because there are no repercussions for either of them
at the bar and they both participated in something that
led to murder. So that in and of itself, I feel
like it's meant to convey something.
I feel like from Tom's perspective, their relationship
is mean streets and from Mitch's perspective, maybe it's more
splendor in the grass. And that's something that they
were both aware of in my conversations with both of them,
but not necessarily things we would talk about collectively.
And what I tried to do was really like have like individual
conversations with each one of the actors.
And so they everything felt like intentional and like, even if
they were only in a piece of, of the movie, there was more there
because otherwise it's like, why?
Like, I just wanted to like, yeah.
And And I feel like their relationship at the bar, I feel
like it like kind of becomes like the reason I reference
Splendor in the Grass is like the last scene or the scene that
precedes Natalie Wood driving away and Splendor in the Grass.
It feels like a breakup scene. And but it's also a scene in
which take some sort of accountability, like he he says
it was his fault, which I think is important in his own
development. But it's like there is silence
is what what leads to the next step that the next school.
And, you know, Mitch gets to go back and work for his father,
even though he's expelled and is, you know, expelled and
working at the job he's working at.
Although he is able to like like face Beach Miller and interact
with everyone like like at the end and and like have and like
preserve his own dignity, to like the culture of silence is
is what keeps it going. And I guess to end the the
conversation on the the film before getting to a a question
about you and and your future and other other films that
you're interested in, as we always ask every creative on the
show outside of the culture of silence at this, that this
fraternity that you're exploring is sort of helping contain and
keep safe. And you're trying to expose that
with the movie that I think it's successfully does.
Can you speak a little bit to how the movie is trying to maybe
get away or get through this conversation about how a lot of
these men have suppressed their vulnerability in order to fit
in? Because ultimately, I think even
though this movie has a ton of sit to say on, on the surface
about and and subtextually about bigger things, but like on the
surface about fraternity culture and like what our country needs
to do to expose a lot of these cultures to be more inclusive,
to be more regulated. I think you do that a really
good job of that with the Dean. But can you speak a little bit
more about just exploring masculinity as a spectrum and in
this movie and in the characters, obviously all
needing just someone to talk to. That isn't to say that we're
dealing with like people we need to like victimize by any means.
But it it is interesting how the movie really, I never feel the
film being overly judgmental. It's just kind of presenting
these characters as it is, which is a huge compliment to you.
But yeah, I would assume when you're writing this that you are
trying to think about this facade of the stoic masculine
hype drinking figure. I mean, people aren't saying
what they mean or how they feel. There's a disconnect between
somebody's expression and what they're feeling and what they're
saying. Feel like there's a lot of
projection in this movie, a lot of insulting each other, which
is something I feel like men do. They get in a room and just
insult each other. I think that, you know, in terms
of like masculine, it's about conformity.
It's about what we like, how we conform to like assimilate and
like whether like that's worth it.
You know, that's the pledges outfits.
That's that's every, that's what it is.
And and that's what fraternities are like.
They're they, I feel like they feel like mirrors of who you
want to be. But that doesn't like, I don't
feel The thing is, is like, I don't, I don't like when you're
18 and like trying to fit in and on your own for the first time
in your life. Like it's a really
impressionable, vulnerable time. And I don't think that, like, I
didn't want to make a movie where I was passing judgement on
kids for like, like joining something because they want to
be popular in college. Like, I think we all have, you
know, been guilty of, of doing things like that.
And so I guess I wanted to like, Yeah, like, like, I think like,
and and it's also credit to all the actors.
Like, they didn't like, like, nobody like, approached their
character from a place of judgement and tried to
understand where everything was coming from.
Even if, you know, they don't recognize that they're wrong in
the audience does. So I think it's a combo.
I don't know. Did I?
Answer no, absolutely. Yeah.
No, I mean this is like a multi themed, you know, story and
screenplay in the in the movie, I think does such a good job of
exploring all these ideas while still again keeping that, you
know, we're going into the underbelly of a fraternity in
the entertainment value of that and kind of the feel bad
entertainment value of that. And so I'm asking you the
biggest of questions and we can we can tone it down a little bit
now, because we always ask every film maker comes on at the end
of our show. Oh, good.
Go ahead. Well, I was just going to say.
The other thing though that I want to point out that you're
hinting at is like, it's the way in which like like Tom has an
allegiance to KNA that it doesn't have to him.
Yeah. And that's, I mean, that's kind
of the the thesis of the movie. I think you said, I think you
said it a few minutes ago. But basically like the question
of is it worth it to to do this just to fit in?
Like, I think that is ultimately the question, like, is it worth
it to affect others, to exploit others, to assimilate in this
way and any establishment, any institution.
And then I think it begs the question of like, for a lot of
these kids are going to go to workplaces.
I think that you do such a good job with the father with
Malkovich because it shows that these kids aren't this toxic
institution does not stop at the fraternity level.
It's going to continue in their their careers.
Unfortunately, they're going to have to navigate this once
again, as I'm sure Tom will realize after he gets out of his
classrooms. And that is a sad truth that
makes the movie feel timeless because again, I think of any
era or any kind of age that you're in, regardless if it's
you're connected to the university more, regardless if
you've been a part of a Greek culture, Greek life.
There is something about navigating these kind of
workplace dynamics, these social dynamics and kind of going
through this like cost benefit analysis of what am I willing to
sacrifice in order to fit in. And ultimately, the movie asks
that beautifully with Tom, who is just.
Well, just I'm sorry. The other thing that I just
wanted to say that you pointed out also is like, it doesn't
stop there. But that's also where it's born,
because the way in which Beach harasses Mitch and like is like,
constantly like, taking cheap shots at him is also what like
creates that like. Like the need for Mitch to
torment Gettys. Yeah, that kind of like
patriarch dynamic that Beach Miller has that we kind of get
to see through the Lewis Pullman character to who sort of acts as
this like, like he the way he's selling the fraternity as if
they control the American economy, they control the
American government and that they are these like noble young
men that must like keep up disappearance or image when all
he cares about is just like controlling the status quo to
making sure you can. Kind of like a politician
straight up. Exactly, Yeah.
It reminded, it did remind me of a few politicians.
A few came to mind while watching it, certainly.
So that was a pretty heavy conversation.
I appreciate, I think we share a lot of sensibilities, which I
really appreciate this conversation.
How and how you're, I'll say unafraid, especially in the
studio system right now to explore ideas, regardless of
them being blunt or not, which I really appreciate like that a
lot of film makers are struggling to get these kind of
screenplays made right now. So I really admire the film for
just existing first and foremost.
And then thankfully it's like really good.
I know I really enjoyed watching this and I'm and I'm really
excited for our listeners to check this out.
Anybody watching at home, but to kind of to take the the foot off
the pedal, if you will, like of the serious things.
I want to talk a little bit about just you as a filmmaker as
we end today's episode and you know where you see your future
going, even though it's the most annoying and irritating question
as a director to be like, what's next?
And you know, I I imagine that must be like really frustrating
because you've worked so long and hard on this single project
for a random podcaster to be like, OK, well, give us the
scoop. Not looking for that as much of
as much as what are your interests cinematically at the
moment? What are what are some some
themes or narratives or recent movies, some things that you're
like that you're diving into right now, getting excited for
in the future? Do you have anything that comes
to mind or are you already working on a project?
Yeah, no, I mean, listen, it's I don't feel like that's an, I'm
just like, like feel lucky to be talking with you about the movie
and this like in a way where you've like, like have all these
thoughtful things to say about it.
And it's like that, you know, this could have, we could have
never finished. So first of all, it's like, I'm
happy to be there. Second, I was always the entire
time working on other things, and I just adopted a novel
called Early Work with the novelist named Andrew Martin.
And so. That's going to be my second
movie and I've been working on a couple other scripts and I'm
about to hopefully, like, get the rights to another book that
I'm excited about. And like, I think for me moving
forward, like there isn't a genre that like, I would like to
make a musical at some point. You know, like I would like to
make like my whole thing is I like movies that make you feel a
lot of things and like, you know, like movies like you can
count on me or the squid and the Whale where it's like you're
laughing and it's, and it's like, and it's also like, like
hurts you. It hurts your heart and like,
and like, cuz that's like how life is to me.
And I guess, you know, it just got to be an attraction to the
story and the messaging. Cuz for me personally, it's like
unless I'm, I believe in something, I can't like pass
that energy to any actors or anybody on the cruise.
So I just have to be like fully invested and believe in the
story and what it's what it's saying.
I I thought about Bound back when it when it came to the dark
humor of this movie in moments. I thought about Margo at the
wedding in particular, interestingly.
So that's when you said that OK, excellent.
I can't wait to see that I was I mean I was looking into early
work. I'm not to check more of that
out looks fascinating. I definitely am like a complex
emotional story from what I see here.
So that makes sense that that is what you're attracted to I.
Mean I feel like my favorite movies are like my two favorite
movies are probably like All That Jazz, the Bob Fosse movie
and then about my mother, the Almodovar movie.
And I don't know, I just like don't have like like genre.
You know, I've just watched one movie that I watched that's
older that I watched recently that I thought was so good was
Flirting with Disaster, the David O Russell movie with Ben
Stiller and Patricia Arquette from like 1994.
Yeah, I haven't seen that in so long.
Yeah, it's like so funny, but shot in like such a like, I
don't know. It's so cinematic and like,
yeah, like I, I I like movies that are like I wanted like
treat an audience with respect. And I like movies that are like
fun to watch. But like even the line, which
has kind of a bitter after taste.
Hopefully you it's it's a good watch.
No, it certainly is and I'm hoping again our audiences can
go check it out. That is Ethan Berger with the
line that was the extra credits of the line.
This will be releasing a major cities this week as listen, as
we're hearing it, it's going to be releasing wide very soon.
If this is going to come to you post theater, then you can check
check this out and streaming in the coming months.
I'm sure me and Kelsey will be talking about this movie once
again at the end of our year list in 2024.
Ethan, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for coming on.
Love this conversation. Really excited for what you do
next. Yeah, and it's super cool that
you're doing what you're doing. And like, I love that the the
film makers you're talking to and you're Ruben Osland like
like story right from the outset, which is who's somebody
who I admire like and it's it's super cool.
So I appreciate being in their company and talking with you, of
course. This has been Trey.
This is the extra credits of the line.
We'll be back soon, probably talking about the substance with
a few other directors coming on the show in the next week or so.
The YouTube channel has just started off, so thank you all
for tuning in on video. If you're on video and if you're
on audio, you can check out all the links to our Patreon YouTube
in the description. Peace out.