1 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:18,920 Music. Hello, welcome to the extra 2 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:22,000 credits of Ethan bergers feature debut the line. 3 00:00:22,240 --> 00:00:25,920 This is one of the most interesting indie films of 2024. 4 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:31,160 A film that explores a toxic underbelly, a fraternity life, 5 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:35,800 with a sharp, unsparing commentary about some men caught 6 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:40,200 up in this harsh college institution where status and 7 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:43,320 privilege and loyalty come at a very high price. 8 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:48,600 And I think for many viewers, this movie might be might remind 9 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:51,240 them of different takes on fraternity life in cinema 10 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:53,440 before. But to me, there is a really 11 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:56,000 original tone here that I'm excited to talk about. 12 00:00:56,520 --> 00:01:00,080 A movie that is really reflective on hyper masculinity 13 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:04,680 and how young white men are conditioned at young ages to 14 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:07,840 protect their identities or privilege and status at all 15 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:09,960 costs. So I think this is a really 16 00:01:09,960 --> 00:01:13,200 impressive cautionary tale and even more impressive feature 17 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:15,800 debut. So to learn more about the 18 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:20,960 making of this movie and to talk about the the the themes and 19 00:01:20,960 --> 00:01:23,240 characters and narrative of this movie, I'm thrilled to be joined 20 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:26,600 by the Co writer and director of the line, Ethan Berger. 21 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:28,240 Ethan, thank you so much for coming on. 22 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:32,600 How are you doing this week? I'm doing really good this week 23 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:35,360 and it's a pleasure to be on with you and I appreciate you 24 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:37,400 having me. Yeah, of course, I'm excited to 25 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:41,120 get into this conversation. I think before we dive into the 26 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:45,560 heavier narrative of the line, I'd love to hear a bit about 27 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:49,200 your filmmaking journey to how you got this film made, where 28 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:51,080 you started. Can you share a little bit about 29 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:54,920 the process of what it's been? Like, I know that I believe you 30 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:58,160 first started thinking about this script or writing it almost 31 00:01:58,160 --> 00:01:59,960 a decade ago or over a decade ago. 32 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:02,400 So yeah, tell us a little bit about your career, where you 33 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:05,440 started as a writer and director, and how you, you know, 34 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:12,000 finally got this project made. We wrote the first draft, Alex 35 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:20,880 Russick and I'm my Co writer in 2012 and we rewrote it every 36 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:30,120 year until we made it in December of 2021 and January 37 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:39,440 2022. And it actors started getting 38 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:48,560 involved around 2018 and it was still a movie that people were 39 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:53,920 hesitant to finance. And when we were actually able 40 00:02:53,920 --> 00:02:59,520 to get the money in 20/21, it was incredibly exciting for me 41 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:07,720 and we were able to like get a few more actors to sign on and 42 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:12,360 I'm just happy that that we finished. 43 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:15,800 Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a it's a wonderful 44 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:18,120 final product. I love, I really love the movie 45 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:20,440 a lot. I had a good time with it these 46 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:22,720 past few weeks just re watching it, kind of prepping for this 47 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:25,960 conversation and made me think back about different movies I've 48 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:29,240 seen that are dealing with some challenging subject matter with 49 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:31,240 fraternity life. And usually I think, 50 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:35,400 unfortunately, Hollywood depicts fraternity to life in ways that 51 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,400 it can be almost empowering to to young men who are acting in 52 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:41,560 these ways or emboldening that kind of behavior or trying to 53 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,280 create a cautionary tale that isn't totally successful or some 54 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:48,120 kind of satirical story. So let's talk a little bit, I 55 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:51,440 guess, about Greek life then, 'cause as you know, listeners 56 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,360 know that Greek life is not like a monolith. 57 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:56,800 There are many inclusive communities across American 58 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:59,560 College campuses. But I think I've heard you say 59 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,920 before that fraternities have been depicted in extreme ways of 60 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:06,320 popular culture where, again, like you can kind of see movies 61 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:10,320 like emboldening toxic behavior. Can you talk about what inspired 62 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:14,200 you to take this approach and why you thought it was important 63 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:18,120 to maybe pivot from those more traditional depictions of 64 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:20,120 fraternity life on American College campuses? 65 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:25,200 When when we initially wrote wrote the script, I feel like we 66 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:30,320 were most inspired by like Mean Streets and like Paul Thomas 67 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:35,520 Anderson movies where characters are trying to reconstruct a 68 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:40,240 familial unit in a different context only to realize that 69 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,800 there are like a certain another set of issues that come along 70 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:47,360 with that. Like fraternities kind of were 71 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:52,160 an example of of something that we recognized in the movies we 72 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:55,320 liked. But then as we continue to 73 00:04:55,320 --> 00:05:04,160 rewrite it, you know, as you age, you're you're you get 74 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:07,840 smarter, I feel like. And we would just revisit the 75 00:05:07,840 --> 00:05:13,240 material and things in the news started happening and always 76 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:18,320 were happening that were eerily similar to what happened, what 77 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:23,560 happens in the script. And it kind of just, like, I 78 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:27,800 don't know, gave us the sense that this story was still worth 79 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:32,440 pursuing and that, like, you know, sometimes fictional 80 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:40,360 stories can influence people. And you know, if we look at 81 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:44,680 fraternity membership, it it skyrockets after Animal House. 82 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:51,320 And I think that, you know, the way it's fraternities are 83 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:57,560 depicted in animal house have have kind of like been repeated. 84 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:01,400 And we wanted to make a different sort of movie about 85 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:05,080 fraternities that drew inspiration from, like I said, 86 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:10,240 Paul Thomas Sanderson movies, Full Metal Jacket, a bunch of 87 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:12,760 stuff. I mean, when we were for the 88 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:17,040 scenes where all the pledges are dancing, we used a lot of 89 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:20,240 cabaret references. The Bob Fosse movie. 90 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,160 Yeah, so. Certainly saw a lot of those 91 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:26,000 references in there. It's funny you said that about 92 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:28,200 Animal House. It reminded me, I was thinking 93 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:30,520 about this last night. It reminded me of a Tony Scott's 94 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:33,320 reaction to how Top Gun had such an impact on the American 95 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:35,560 military and had people want to sign up. 96 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:41,680 And his commentary was kind of trying to navigate that issue in 97 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:44,440 more nuanced ways. And that sort of reminds me of 98 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:47,000 what happens there. And I do think a lot of movies 99 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:51,640 have tried swing away from fraternity life and not exactly 100 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:54,880 sure how to expose it. You have things like Project X 101 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:57,720 that take that kind of like hyper comedic look at those 102 00:06:57,720 --> 00:06:59,960 situations that almost elevate those situations. 103 00:06:59,960 --> 00:07:05,320 But they become almost in these weird ways, dreams for 104 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:08,120 unfortunately, like young boys across America and high schools 105 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:11,000 to go to college one day and act in these ways because the movies 106 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,000 aren't actually getting across anything that is maybe a 107 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:16,080 provocation in that way. And I do think your movie 108 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:19,040 successfully does that. And it is it is blunt in ways 109 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:20,480 that I think it really needs to be. 110 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:23,960 It reminds me a little bit of how the substance right now is a 111 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:26,680 great movie in theaters, a movie that is a deeply different in 112 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:28,080 terms of like the themes of the stories. 113 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:31,320 But there is a bluntness to that movies allegory that I think is 114 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:35,280 really necessary in a a social story like yours, The line. 115 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:38,920 So, yeah, I think those those those comparisons are really 116 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:40,720 apt. I also thought about, OK, well, 117 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:43,760 what are some of the movies that have depicted fraternity life in 118 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:49,200 toxic ways that almost use frats as or Greek life as these kind 119 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,120 of microcosms for broken institutions across the United 120 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:54,160 States? And the one I think most 121 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:57,120 recently did it for me tonally that really captured something a 122 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,040 little bit like a dark underbelly of these cultures 123 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,520 that you really don't see unless you're in those environments. 124 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:04,480 Is David Fincher's The Social Network. 125 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:07,520 And it's so funny that you said, you know, Paul Thomas Anderson 126 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:10,560 or Scorsese with Mean Streets, cuz I feel something a little 127 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,760 bit a little darker, a little grimier about the energy of this 128 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:16,160 movie that reminded me of something. 129 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:17,640 Fincher asks. Is that is that right? 130 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:21,160 On, I mean, I love the Social Network. 131 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:25,840 I love it. Like I remember seeing it in 132 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:30,960 theaters. I'm so impressed that he was 133 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:36,039 able to make a movie or that and the whole crew and cast were 134 00:08:36,039 --> 00:08:39,679 able to make a movie that that good about somebody in popular 135 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:44,920 culture, like in the moment. Also, it's not like after the 136 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,920 fact. But yeah, I mean, my whole thing 137 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:56,640 is like that movie does its thing and you know, I definitely 138 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:00,160 like the way music like works in that movie is definitely 139 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:03,280 something that inspires me. Like I feel like it gives it 140 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:08,920 emotional like Underbelly that like I feel like Daniel Ross and 141 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:16,560 score in our movie does like I, I think and that's but like, 142 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,720 like, you know, it was definitely something we looked 143 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:25,200 at for certain scenes. But yeah, Harvard is a different 144 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:29,480 environment than the University of Oklahoma when we were where 145 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:31,760 we were shooting. And you have to kind of 146 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:34,200 consider. And we also wanted to make it 147 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:41,120 more like a state school and less like Ivy League, which I 148 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:45,760 feel like we're not even necessarily a state school, but 149 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:49,760 like, you know, somewhere that feels more relatable to 150 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:51,720 everyone. Yeah, absolutely. 151 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:56,160 There is a kind of middle class accessibility to the school and 152 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:59,720 I think it's interesting the spectrum of like income or 153 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:03,000 wealth rather like within the the fraternity is very clear 154 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:06,080 through like the Tom character who kind of has his own checks 155 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:09,720 right from his mother at the at the table about maybe what he 156 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:11,920 doesn't realize. He has his privileges in terms 157 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:15,240 of tuition being paid for and him kind of living in this 158 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:19,560 almost like fantasy that he might be this a working class 159 00:10:19,560 --> 00:10:22,840 kid just because he has a job versus like lower middle class 160 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:26,160 kid who's in an environment with elite kids who might come from 161 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:29,000 like very wealthy ruling class families. 162 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:31,240 So that is an interesting dynamic. 163 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:35,280 So let's talk about. The oh, wait, can I say, can I 164 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:37,720 just to point out, because you're on to something really 165 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:41,560 important, which is also his his mother points out that he works 166 00:10:41,560 --> 00:10:45,680 at A at a pizza restaurant. And then the subsequent scene, 167 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:50,440 he tells Beach Miller's character that he's been working 168 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:52,840 for a friend of his mother's who's a realtor. 169 00:10:53,560 --> 00:10:58,120 And I feel like that's a really important sequence of events 170 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:03,000 that, with his mother calling him Forrest Gump, give the sense 171 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:07,160 that he is 19 years old and he isn't comfortable in his skin. 172 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:09,760 Right, exactly. And I definitely want to talk 173 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:12,920 about Tom and how you navigate that character in terms of the 174 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:15,240 sympathy versus the judgement of the character, because I think 175 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:17,720 it is a fine line in the movie. Does it so well. 176 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:22,360 So you have an incredible ensemble cast here, Alex Wolff 177 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:27,080 of Hereditary, Lewis Pullman of Top Gun, Maverick, Halle Bailey 178 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:30,320 of Little Mermaid. Now Austin Abrams gives a stand 179 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:33,480 out supporting role performance here as one of the most 180 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,200 interesting actors of his generation. 181 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,960 And then you also had a soon to be, I think, generational talent 182 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:43,000 of the late Angus Cloud of Euphoria fame to many of our 183 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:45,440 listeners who sadly passed away far too soon. 184 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:48,960 And you had other up and comers too that stood out like Bo 185 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:50,480 Mitchell, who I'd love to talk about. 186 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:53,280 And there's some great character actors in this movie like 187 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:55,440 Malkovich, notably, and some others. 188 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,760 So I love to hear about how you went about choosing this cast 189 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:03,400 because it's a really impressive indie film cast. 190 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:06,560 Not to say that that the screenplay doesn't just, you 191 00:12:06,560 --> 00:12:09,600 know, elicit that kind of response from actors who want to 192 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:13,800 come work on this this movie and this kind of like fraternity as 193 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:15,600 a microcosm for a broken America. 194 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:17,680 I think that is fascinating. And it's a really tight 195 00:12:17,680 --> 00:12:19,120 screenplay. It might be one of the best 196 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:23,160 aspects of this movie, just the story alone and how you kind of 197 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:25,760 take an amalgamation of current events and and squeeze it into 198 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:30,440 this film. But it it it's really cool to 199 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:32,520 see a movie like this that I think, you know, I think you 200 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:36,800 said it was made a few years ago now that stars such great up and 201 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:39,280 coming actors, if not already well established actors at this 202 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:41,520 point. It remind me a little bit of and 203 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:44,360 maybe I thought about it because tonally and thematically it was 204 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:46,080 a little bit similar. But there was a film I don't 205 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:48,360 know if you saw a couple years ago called American Anime 206 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:53,680 Animals, starring Evan Peters and Barry Keowen, among others. 207 00:12:53,680 --> 00:12:57,240 And that had a cast that was about to pop off as well in a 208 00:12:57,240 --> 00:12:59,480 similar story where I think they caught on to a screenplay that 209 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:01,360 was playing with, you know, similar ideas. 210 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:05,320 But what was it like, you know, casting this movie and also 211 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:07,680 being on set with this kind of cast? 212 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:15,840 It's interesting because, you know, if you keep in mind when 213 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:21,280 we shot it, everybody wasn't as we were shooting the movies, 214 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:23,560 Season 2 of Euphoria was coming out. 215 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:32,440 Angus and Austin's lives were changing in real time when 216 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:41,280 Little Mermaid hadn't come out and you know, so, but we were 217 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:48,200 certainly like aware of everybody's potential and basic. 218 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:53,080 Basically, after I was able to get a producer involved, he took 219 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:57,720 me to agencies and they gave me a list of actors who we could 220 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:02,240 send the screenplay to. And at the time, for instance, 221 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:07,440 Hereditary was about to come out and the second I saw it, we 222 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:12,880 offered the Partalis Wolf because it would, it was to me, 223 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:19,040 he he that that part is insane and says it all. 224 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:26,920 And he's, he's able to evoke emotion through expressions and 225 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:34,760 he just is really gifted. And that movie is a great movie. 226 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:40,320 And I wanted to make a movie with somebody like him who was 227 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,200 the right age but also who had made a great movie. 228 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:52,240 And he had Austin Abrams do a reading with his friends and 229 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:57,720 suggested Austin Abrams to me and was very active in the 230 00:14:57,720 --> 00:14:59,800 process because he felt passionate about it. 231 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:02,760 Yeah, I don't. So. 232 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:06,200 Well, I just also want to say, like, he also wanted to go to 233 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:08,720 University of South Carolina before we shot. 234 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:15,000 And we went, which is where we met Nick and Mason and Sal, who 235 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:18,160 are in the movie playing fraternity brothers. 236 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:25,880 They were. They were living in Columbia at 237 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:28,520 the University of South Carolina in a fraternity there. 238 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:33,600 And we met them, told them about the movie and they decided to be 239 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:35,480 in it. Interesting. 240 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:36,840 Yeah. I mean, you can feel the living 241 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:39,720 experience of some of the young men for sure. 242 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:43,280 That's kind of similar to how I think Paine cast the holdovers 243 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:47,360 recently about a year ago. OK, so let's talk about Alex 244 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:49,400 Wolff for a second. I'm so glad to hear that I have 245 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:53,360 a an RE Astor stand such as myself on the podcast. 246 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:57,200 That's great. And that is, you know, that 247 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:01,360 performance from Alex Wolff is very important to me as a big 248 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:07,040 horror fan, but also like as the Nickelodeon generation and Alex 249 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:09,080 Wolf being part of that naked brothers band, which I don't 250 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:11,920 know if you're familiar with, but like I've had a long life 251 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:15,160 of, of watching the the Wolf brothers and seeing him take off 252 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:17,520 like this is pretty amazing. I think he's evolved now into 253 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:21,520 one of the more like recent horror icon actors, especially 254 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:25,160 now with Quiet Place coming out recently and, you know, 255 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:26,640 obviously the work on Hereditary. 256 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:29,040 He's had a really diverse filmography in between. 257 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:33,680 But I think Tom might be one of his best performances, which is 258 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,680 wild to say because he's had so many, you know, eclectic roles. 259 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:40,320 But this might be one of the most challenging roles I've seen 260 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:44,880 him take on too, that I think he really nails, which he plays a 261 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:49,360 character who is a type of guy that I certainly knew in school, 262 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,520 someone who I watched from afar that I was like, you know, just 263 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:54,280 observing. You can kind of see these kind 264 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,640 of guys stuck between their personal aspirations and 265 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:01,560 ambitions with their own morals or ethics, kind of friends with 266 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,920 different groups. So how did you work with Alex to 267 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:09,640 bring out that vulnerability for Tom while also keeping that 268 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:13,280 internal conflict and also that kind of privilege of him 269 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:17,400 navigating this toxic world of the fraternity and loving it 270 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:18,640 until. It's too late. 271 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:24,599 I mean you, you nailed it. He is a character who doesn't 272 00:17:24,599 --> 00:17:32,840 realize that he has agency and he understood the script. 273 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:41,560 He understood the arc of the character and he is hungry and 274 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:48,760 gives 110% and wanted to have, he acknowledged that he isn't 275 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:53,120 that guy and that he had to have conversations with people in 276 00:17:53,120 --> 00:17:58,120 order to go there. And he just put in the extra 277 00:17:58,120 --> 00:18:05,360 work and, you know, time for you to say that about this 278 00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:10,880 performance being one of his better ones is like, you know, 279 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:16,400 an honor because I, I think like movies like Hereditary and Pig 280 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:20,000 are so good. I like the Cat in the moon a 281 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:21,040 lot. His movie. 282 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:28,440 I mean, I think that he, you know, I don't know, he bring, 283 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:35,520 he, he gives his characters like like a heart, you know, and, and 284 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:38,120 he was a really exciting person to work with. 285 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:41,640 Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a very 286 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:44,160 challenging role, I think, especially with the accent. 287 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:46,040 Let me ask you about that because I think that was a 288 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:49,600 really interesting move. I think this movie is very 289 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:51,120 tragic. I'm trying my best not to spoil 290 00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:52,800 it for listeners who haven't seen it because it hasn't 291 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:54,560 released wide yet. When we drop this episode 292 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:57,520 probably. And you know, I'm sure when 293 00:18:57,520 --> 00:18:59,640 people are watching this in advance post theaters, they'll 294 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:01,600 be able to stream it as well. So I'll just be careful with 295 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:03,160 spoilers. And if we want to spoil, we can 296 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:07,440 just give everybody a warning. But Austin Abrams has one of the 297 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,440 more challenging kind of beats of this movie because he has to 298 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:12,120 kind of go up and down with his emotions. 299 00:19:12,120 --> 00:19:14,800 He's relatable till he's not. And then he's a relatable again 300 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:18,080 at the very end. And he I think gives he is the 301 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,680 most the biggest standout scene of the movie. 302 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,160 That really kind of shocked me even on rewatch again, just 303 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,720 watching the intricacies and nuances of what he's doing with 304 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,520 his reaction to some of the fraternity kids at the end of 305 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:34,360 the movie. But when it comes to Tom and 306 00:19:34,360 --> 00:19:38,120 that accent, it brings a level of humor to the movie. 307 00:19:38,120 --> 00:19:40,360 And then it won rewatch. I I realized there was a lot 308 00:19:40,360 --> 00:19:43,440 more humor than I had first recognized because tonally the 309 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:46,800 movie is just kind of it's really kind of provoking you and 310 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:50,080 it's immersive and really interesting ways and fun ways 311 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:52,480 for somebody like me who loves to be taken over by their 312 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:55,560 movies. Like I have a whiplash vinyl 313 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:57,640 behind me right now. And that that movie, what 314 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:00,280 Chazelle does by immersing you into the world of Andrew. 315 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,080 So impressive. And I, I get feelings of that in 316 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:07,120 the line for sure, but they're the those moments of levity, 317 00:20:07,120 --> 00:20:09,560 like having Tom go in and out of his accent is really 318 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:10,880 interesting. So can you speak to that a 319 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:12,520 little bit? Because I think that is a really 320 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:13,960 interesting choice. I'd love to hear if it's. 321 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,320 If that was on your end or if that was on no wolf's end. 322 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:23,640 It's a little bit of both. It's, it's an accent he's using 323 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,480 to fit in. It's like kind of code switching 324 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:39,200 and he, Alex, I think the idea might have been Alex's 325 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:43,720 initially. And then to me, it was made OK 326 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:49,800 by the a like environment that we were in, which I think led 327 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,000 Alex to want to do that. And then also by Sherry 328 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:57,120 O'terry's line where she calls him Forrest Gump. 329 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:04,240 So we're aware as an audience that it's it's something he's 330 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:08,360 putting on to fit in. And then another important thing 331 00:21:08,360 --> 00:21:13,200 which happens but is subtle is him dropping it two years later, 332 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:18,720 which also happens and it isn't something and and at a certain 333 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:24,640 point in the bar scene we had a line from Mitch where he calls 334 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:28,480 him out on his accent being gone, but we felt it would be 335 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:31,560 best to omit that and keep it subtle. 336 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,440 Yeah, no, I mean, we picked it up on 1st watch actually. 337 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,240 So it's really well done. It's like, it's subtle, but it's 338 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:39,840 there. It adds to that themes of the 339 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:42,760 movie, especially about, you know, made me reflect on 2nd 340 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:45,920 Watch actually, about how much of this movie is about gender 341 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:50,760 identity and constructs and young men performing masculinity 342 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:55,760 in different ways and not really having any kind of positive 343 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,840 forms of their identity they can look to or hold on to. 344 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:00,400 That gives them some kind of outlet. 345 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,200 And I think that Alex Wolf gets that across really well when 346 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:08,120 he's speaking to his partner at the end of the movie or somebody 347 00:22:08,120 --> 00:22:09,680 he hooked up with throughout the film. 348 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:14,880 And that was really fascinating because he kind of, he doesn't 349 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:16,200 really know how to express himself. 350 00:22:16,360 --> 00:22:19,760 He knows that he's kind of in the wrong for coming to someone 351 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,440 last second like this. And that was a really it. 352 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,960 It kind of fed into this movie's ultimate through line, I think 353 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:30,160 from my perspective about, you know, the standout themes of how 354 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:35,960 a lot of these young men are silent and complicit in the face 355 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,440 of like, very violent things that are happening at these 356 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:42,600 fraternities in fear for their own cachet, their status. 357 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:45,120 And by the end, it becomes really clear that, Tom, this 358 00:22:45,120 --> 00:22:47,400 character you've been following has really been going through 359 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,960 this cautionary tale as somebody who is both a a victim in a lot 360 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,480 of ways, but also a serious participant in this dangerous 361 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:58,320 cycle that demands like examination from the audience. 362 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:02,120 And I think it was so smart to cast Wolf because I think not 363 00:23:02,120 --> 00:23:04,480 only do we have that kind of meta relationship to him as a as 364 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,920 a young star in American culture, but also he just evokes 365 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:11,720 so much vulnerability even in a a character like that that's 366 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,480 trying to present as very stoic or to add an accent, which is 367 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,680 really interesting. So can you speak to how he or 368 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:22,120 you developed that tension of the story of Tom? 369 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,880 Basically, this is this is I think the hardest thing of the 370 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,680 movie, which is Tom's character arc, which is like this fine 371 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:31,760 line of wanting your audience to sympathize with this character 372 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,240 to a certain extent, especially in regards to his foil of the 373 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:37,680 Mitch Miller character, the roommate. 374 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,200 But you don't want the audience necessarily to forgive Tom's 375 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:45,400 convenient dissonance, for lack of a better word, of how long he 376 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,280 kind of wants to stay in the fraternity until it's too late. 377 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,280 Like he's it benefits it benefits him right Until it 378 00:23:51,360 --> 00:23:54,200 doesn't. And I think the the Bailey 379 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,920 character becomes pretty essential at the end to show 380 00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:57,880 maybe how the audience. Is. 381 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,080 Reflecting on Tom. Yeah, like, I feel like she's 382 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,240 essential from the beginning because he idealizes her from 383 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,560 the beginning. He thinks that their whole thing 384 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:11,240 is something it isn't, even though she makes very clear to 385 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,240 him that she's only interested in a casual thing. 386 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:19,360 Yes, And and then she's just consistent and she does what 387 00:24:19,360 --> 00:24:22,960 he's incapable of doing, which is just remove herself. 388 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,880 Like like he cannot go to the retreat. 389 00:24:27,120 --> 00:24:32,760 He cannot be in K&A. And yet he keeps being pulled 390 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:39,080 from one thing to the next until he's a participant and it's too 391 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:43,200 late. And, and when he tries and 392 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:47,560 makes, you know, when he tries to like make her a part of it by 393 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:53,960 telling her the story, she just shuts him down and, you know, 394 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,920 tells him she has her own life to live. 395 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:02,800 And so I feel like, you know, that's why the character's 396 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:04,840 important. And I feel like, you know, we 397 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:10,480 try and preface that in their interaction at her place earlier 398 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:15,280 in the movie in which she asks about his family. 399 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:19,400 And you realize his father's passed away and nobody in 400 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,080 fraternity has asked him about his family. 401 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:28,160 And he thinks she's pausing to accommodate him when she's just 402 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:34,440 pausing to think of her answer. And it's like she doesn't exist 403 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:39,600 to accommodate him. And I think that, like, you 404 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:44,680 know, one thing we tried to have Alex do is like, like, you know, 405 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:48,120 hit the way he behaves with his mother at the very beginning is 406 00:25:48,120 --> 00:25:52,320 very different than the way he is in the fraternity immediately 407 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:57,120 after. Like he's he's, you know, somber 408 00:25:57,120 --> 00:25:59,360 and talking kind of down to his mother. 409 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:03,320 And then when he's in the fraternity, he's wide eyed and 410 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:09,200 quiet and smiling a lot. And you get the sense that he 411 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:13,960 hasn't, like, necessarily found his voice, but that he feels a 412 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,080 part of something that doesn't exist at home. 413 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:24,240 And then over the course of the narrative, as this war unfolds 414 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:29,240 between his, you know, roommate and best friend of one year, 415 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:35,080 Mitch, and Getty's a pledge who won't conform or do any of the 416 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,840 things you're supposed to do to be in the fraternity, Tom starts 417 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,680 to question everything. And I feel like, you know, 418 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:51,400 Getty's character, I mean, you've brought up so many things 419 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,400 that I want to touch on. I mean, I feel like, you know, 420 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:58,640 the one thing that this movie is trying to say about young men is 421 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:03,840 that we, like, use our own trauma to, like, justify 422 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:08,760 inflicting it on to the next generation when that's not OK. 423 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:16,720 Or, you know, it is about a culture of silence that 424 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:21,240 surrounds fraternities, which are, you know, incredibly 425 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:25,000 influential. Millions of people were members 426 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:31,240 of and yet remain segregated for the last 100 years. 427 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:40,880 Like And you know, to me like, the only way to progress is to 428 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,200 acknowledge that a problem exists. 429 00:27:45,120 --> 00:27:48,840 Yeah, absolutely. I think the movie certainly 430 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,760 provokes that conversation. Like I I mean, me and Callus, my 431 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,200 Co host, talked about that last night in preparation for this 432 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:59,320 episode today and talked about how this movie sometimes films 433 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:03,920 like this need to really ground you in these really challenging 434 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,000 situations, but have these larger than life ideas, but 435 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:11,080 still keep you grounded to to hold on to that commentary, to 436 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:13,960 not lose it while still keeping the tension that you you deserve 437 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,560 from a movie that you know you're paying money to go see. 438 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:18,920 That should be entertaining. But then this is one of those 439 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,120 kind of like, I love that you reference mean streets, one of 440 00:28:21,120 --> 00:28:22,720 those feel bad entertainment films. 441 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,440 That is certainly you're going to you're going to, you know, 442 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:28,960 grab the edges of your seats. You're going to even laugh at 443 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:30,480 some jokes. You're going to feel very 444 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:32,440 uncomfortable at the end, especially in the way that the 445 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,560 camera is looking at like Austin Abrams character, for example. 446 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:41,440 And it's for the better because I think this movie deserves that 447 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:47,000 kind of, let's say, like, higher level conversation after you 448 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:48,280 leave. This is something you'd want to 449 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,680 talk about with your friends or this is something you'd want to 450 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:54,840 recommend to really anybody to watch Because this is 451 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,040 unfortunately, a film that is timeless yet feels very 452 00:28:58,040 --> 00:28:59,840 contemporary because of everything that's been going on 453 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,680 in the news, you know, over the really the last decades. 454 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:04,800 I believe this movie takes place in 2014. 455 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,320 And I think you even show real footage. 456 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:09,640 Is that right at the end of the movie? 457 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:17,840 So yes, that is correct. So in order to be accurate, we 458 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:22,400 showed the movie to the parents of Timothy Piazza, who 459 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:29,200 tropically passed away at Penn State, and they were on board 460 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:33,600 with us using his image at the end in the news footage to 461 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,680 convey the idea. Like, even though this is a 462 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,440 fictional movie, The problem is very real. 463 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:47,200 And I think that's a reason why we wanted the movie to be kind 464 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:53,320 of like unapologetic is like it kind of has to be in order to 465 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,480 get its point across. Yep, absolutely. 466 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,200 And I guess that leads me to before we get to our final 467 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,720 question here, the, the Tom and Mitch like the foil relationship 468 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,640 they have or the parallel, you've already spoken about the 469 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:12,200 conversation they had at dinner where Tom is sort of negotiating 470 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,920 his status to fit in with his father. 471 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:20,440 But what what was your what were some inspirations for that 472 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:22,400 dynamic? Because that I think is one of 473 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,280 the more interesting relationships of the movie, 474 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:26,960 because I think you do such a good job with, again, the Gray 475 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,800 morals of the film, the kind of sympathy of these characters 476 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,000 until you can no longer sympathize with them. 477 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:33,840 I think Mitch Miller in particular. 478 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:36,160 I believe the actor's name is Bo Miller. 479 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:37,800 Is that correct? Bo Mitchell, yeah. 480 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:42,960 Bo Mitchell, I apologize. And the the the performance, the 481 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,480 actor I'm not super familiar with, but the performance is 482 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:47,480 extraordinary. I'm sure I'll see more of him. 483 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,800 But what he also had to do, and a lot of these actors have to do 484 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,920 again, is balance that fine line of like playing with the 485 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:59,280 audience's sympathy of like what we are have been in our own way, 486 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,840 like condition to forgive these these people for up until we are 487 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:04,720 no longer able to forgive them anymore. 488 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,840 And this is the character who really has the heel turn and the 489 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,560 the actor who gets I think the the loudest performance at the 490 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:12,640 end of the movie. But he does it in a way where 491 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,880 I've still feel grounded and equally just like terrified by 492 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,320 the character and the way he's speaking or the choices he's 493 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,320 making. And that that dynamic with Tom 494 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:26,680 becomes unfortunately, like very relatable, I think especially 495 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:28,600 for a lot of young men who have been put in these positions 496 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,760 where they are across from more volatile men and they didn't 497 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,120 realize who they were in a room with until it's too late. 498 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:37,800 And I think that's where where Tom finds himself. 499 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,320 So you can you speak a little bit to the that that dynamic 500 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:43,040 between those two characters? Yeah, totally. 501 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,920 I mean, I just want to point out that at the end is important 502 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,480 because there are no repercussions for either of them 503 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:54,920 at the bar and they both participated in something that 504 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,760 led to murder. So that in and of itself, I feel 505 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,440 like it's meant to convey something. 506 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:06,840 I feel like from Tom's perspective, their relationship 507 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,760 is mean streets and from Mitch's perspective, maybe it's more 508 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:16,080 splendor in the grass. And that's something that they 509 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:20,560 were both aware of in my conversations with both of them, 510 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:24,600 but not necessarily things we would talk about collectively. 511 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:30,320 And what I tried to do was really like have like individual 512 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,080 conversations with each one of the actors. 513 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:40,040 And so they everything felt like intentional and like, even if 514 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:45,120 they were only in a piece of, of the movie, there was more there 515 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:47,760 because otherwise it's like, why? 516 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:53,440 Like, I just wanted to like, yeah. 517 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:57,480 And And I feel like their relationship at the bar, I feel 518 00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:01,120 like it like kind of becomes like the reason I reference 519 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:04,440 Splendor in the Grass is like the last scene or the scene that 520 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:08,440 precedes Natalie Wood driving away and Splendor in the Grass. 521 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:14,400 It feels like a breakup scene. And but it's also a scene in 522 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:20,200 which take some sort of accountability, like he he says 523 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:26,200 it was his fault, which I think is important in his own 524 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,560 development. But it's like there is silence 525 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:36,160 is what what leads to the next step that the next school. 526 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:42,160 And, you know, Mitch gets to go back and work for his father, 527 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:48,600 even though he's expelled and is, you know, expelled and 528 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:50,680 working at the job he's working at. 529 00:33:52,600 --> 00:34:00,720 Although he is able to like like face Beach Miller and interact 530 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:08,600 with everyone like like at the end and and like have and like 531 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,679 preserve his own dignity, to like the culture of silence is 532 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:17,719 is what keeps it going. And I guess to end the the 533 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,800 conversation on the the film before getting to a a question 534 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,719 about you and and your future and other other films that 535 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:26,840 you're interested in, as we always ask every creative on the 536 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:31,520 show outside of the culture of silence at this, that this 537 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:37,159 fraternity that you're exploring is sort of helping contain and 538 00:34:37,159 --> 00:34:39,719 keep safe. And you're trying to expose that 539 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:41,719 with the movie that I think it's successfully does. 540 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:47,679 Can you speak a little bit to how the movie is trying to maybe 541 00:34:47,679 --> 00:34:53,120 get away or get through this conversation about how a lot of 542 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,679 these men have suppressed their vulnerability in order to fit 543 00:34:56,679 --> 00:34:58,520 in? Because ultimately, I think even 544 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:00,880 though this movie has a ton of sit to say on, on the surface 545 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:05,160 about and and subtextually about bigger things, but like on the 546 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:07,440 surface about fraternity culture and like what our country needs 547 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,680 to do to expose a lot of these cultures to be more inclusive, 548 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,200 to be more regulated. I think you do that a really 549 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:17,240 good job of that with the Dean. But can you speak a little bit 550 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:22,640 more about just exploring masculinity as a spectrum and in 551 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,600 this movie and in the characters, obviously all 552 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:29,200 needing just someone to talk to. That isn't to say that we're 553 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:33,040 dealing with like people we need to like victimize by any means. 554 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,600 But it it is interesting how the movie really, I never feel the 555 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,440 film being overly judgmental. It's just kind of presenting 556 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,040 these characters as it is, which is a huge compliment to you. 557 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:47,360 But yeah, I would assume when you're writing this that you are 558 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:51,160 trying to think about this facade of the stoic masculine 559 00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:56,720 hype drinking figure. I mean, people aren't saying 560 00:35:56,720 --> 00:36:00,640 what they mean or how they feel. There's a disconnect between 561 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,360 somebody's expression and what they're feeling and what they're 562 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:06,120 saying. Feel like there's a lot of 563 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:11,200 projection in this movie, a lot of insulting each other, which 564 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,200 is something I feel like men do. They get in a room and just 565 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:20,000 insult each other. I think that, you know, in terms 566 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:24,320 of like masculine, it's about conformity. 567 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:30,560 It's about what we like, how we conform to like assimilate and 568 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,800 like whether like that's worth it. 569 00:36:34,240 --> 00:36:36,760 You know, that's the pledges outfits. 570 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:40,800 That's that's every, that's what it is. 571 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:44,320 And and that's what fraternities are like. 572 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:50,240 They're they, I feel like they feel like mirrors of who you 573 00:36:50,240 --> 00:36:53,920 want to be. But that doesn't like, I don't 574 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:58,440 feel The thing is, is like, I don't, I don't like when you're 575 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:02,320 18 and like trying to fit in and on your own for the first time 576 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:04,800 in your life. Like it's a really 577 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:09,800 impressionable, vulnerable time. And I don't think that, like, I 578 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:13,480 didn't want to make a movie where I was passing judgement on 579 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:18,040 kids for like, like joining something because they want to 580 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:22,120 be popular in college. Like, I think we all have, you 581 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:26,680 know, been guilty of, of doing things like that. 582 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:34,760 And so I guess I wanted to like, Yeah, like, like, I think like, 583 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,040 and and it's also credit to all the actors. 584 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:42,640 Like, they didn't like, like, nobody like, approached their 585 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:46,120 character from a place of judgement and tried to 586 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,600 understand where everything was coming from. 587 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:54,640 Even if, you know, they don't recognize that they're wrong in 588 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:58,240 the audience does. So I think it's a combo. 589 00:37:58,240 --> 00:37:58,880 I don't know. Did I? 590 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:00,840 Answer no, absolutely. Yeah. 591 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:04,520 No, I mean this is like a multi themed, you know, story and 592 00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:07,680 screenplay in the in the movie, I think does such a good job of 593 00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:11,600 exploring all these ideas while still again keeping that, you 594 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:13,640 know, we're going into the underbelly of a fraternity in 595 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,560 the entertainment value of that and kind of the feel bad 596 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,400 entertainment value of that. And so I'm asking you the 597 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,480 biggest of questions and we can we can tone it down a little bit 598 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:25,640 now, because we always ask every film maker comes on at the end 599 00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:26,280 of our show. Oh, good. 600 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,280 Go ahead. Well, I was just going to say. 601 00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,040 The other thing though that I want to point out that you're 602 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:37,000 hinting at is like, it's the way in which like like Tom has an 603 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:40,680 allegiance to KNA that it doesn't have to him. 604 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,080 Yeah. And that's, I mean, that's kind 605 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:49,600 of the the thesis of the movie. I think you said, I think you 606 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,680 said it a few minutes ago. But basically like the question 607 00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:57,920 of is it worth it to to do this just to fit in? 608 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,120 Like, I think that is ultimately the question, like, is it worth 609 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:04,280 it to affect others, to exploit others, to assimilate in this 610 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:06,680 way and any establishment, any institution. 611 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,880 And then I think it begs the question of like, for a lot of 612 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:11,280 these kids are going to go to workplaces. 613 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,320 I think that you do such a good job with the father with 614 00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:16,920 Malkovich because it shows that these kids aren't this toxic 615 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,000 institution does not stop at the fraternity level. 616 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,200 It's going to continue in their their careers. 617 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:23,360 Unfortunately, they're going to have to navigate this once 618 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:26,320 again, as I'm sure Tom will realize after he gets out of his 619 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,440 classrooms. And that is a sad truth that 620 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:33,280 makes the movie feel timeless because again, I think of any 621 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:37,640 era or any kind of age that you're in, regardless if it's 622 00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:39,680 you're connected to the university more, regardless if 623 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:41,880 you've been a part of a Greek culture, Greek life. 624 00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:44,040 There is something about navigating these kind of 625 00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:47,640 workplace dynamics, these social dynamics and kind of going 626 00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:51,080 through this like cost benefit analysis of what am I willing to 627 00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:53,840 sacrifice in order to fit in. And ultimately, the movie asks 628 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:56,840 that beautifully with Tom, who is just. 629 00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:01,280 Well, just I'm sorry. The other thing that I just 630 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,440 wanted to say that you pointed out also is like, it doesn't 631 00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:06,640 stop there. But that's also where it's born, 632 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:14,240 because the way in which Beach harasses Mitch and like is like, 633 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:20,760 constantly like, taking cheap shots at him is also what like 634 00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:25,880 creates that like. Like the need for Mitch to 635 00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:30,120 torment Gettys. Yeah, that kind of like 636 00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:34,720 patriarch dynamic that Beach Miller has that we kind of get 637 00:40:34,720 --> 00:40:38,680 to see through the Lewis Pullman character to who sort of acts as 638 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:43,680 this like, like he the way he's selling the fraternity as if 639 00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,000 they control the American economy, they control the 640 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,120 American government and that they are these like noble young 641 00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:51,960 men that must like keep up disappearance or image when all 642 00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:55,560 he cares about is just like controlling the status quo to 643 00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:57,280 making sure you can. Kind of like a politician 644 00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:59,120 straight up. Exactly, Yeah. 645 00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,360 It reminded, it did remind me of a few politicians. 646 00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:04,240 A few came to mind while watching it, certainly. 647 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:08,320 So that was a pretty heavy conversation. 648 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:10,920 I appreciate, I think we share a lot of sensibilities, which I 649 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:12,280 really appreciate this conversation. 650 00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:17,400 How and how you're, I'll say unafraid, especially in the 651 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,880 studio system right now to explore ideas, regardless of 652 00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:25,280 them being blunt or not, which I really appreciate like that a 653 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:30,080 lot of film makers are struggling to get these kind of 654 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:33,720 screenplays made right now. So I really admire the film for 655 00:41:33,720 --> 00:41:35,160 just existing first and foremost. 656 00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:36,880 And then thankfully it's like really good. 657 00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,200 I know I really enjoyed watching this and I'm and I'm really 658 00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:41,640 excited for our listeners to check this out. 659 00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:47,320 Anybody watching at home, but to kind of to take the the foot off 660 00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:49,800 the pedal, if you will, like of the serious things. 661 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:52,880 I want to talk a little bit about just you as a filmmaker as 662 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:57,040 we end today's episode and you know where you see your future 663 00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:00,360 going, even though it's the most annoying and irritating question 664 00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:01,840 as a director to be like, what's next? 665 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,200 And you know, I I imagine that must be like really frustrating 666 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:07,080 because you've worked so long and hard on this single project 667 00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:10,120 for a random podcaster to be like, OK, well, give us the 668 00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:12,120 scoop. Not looking for that as much of 669 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:16,600 as much as what are your interests cinematically at the 670 00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,680 moment? What are what are some some 671 00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:23,840 themes or narratives or recent movies, some things that you're 672 00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:27,280 like that you're diving into right now, getting excited for 673 00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:29,520 in the future? Do you have anything that comes 674 00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:31,760 to mind or are you already working on a project? 675 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:36,400 Yeah, no, I mean, listen, it's I don't feel like that's an, I'm 676 00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:41,320 just like, like feel lucky to be talking with you about the movie 677 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:45,840 and this like in a way where you've like, like have all these 678 00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:47,520 thoughtful things to say about it. 679 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:51,440 And it's like that, you know, this could have, we could have 680 00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:54,680 never finished. So first of all, it's like, I'm 681 00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:59,160 happy to be there. Second, I was always the entire 682 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:04,840 time working on other things, and I just adopted a novel 683 00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:08,600 called Early Work with the novelist named Andrew Martin. 684 00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:12,160 And so. That's going to be my second 685 00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:19,920 movie and I've been working on a couple other scripts and I'm 686 00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:23,920 about to hopefully, like, get the rights to another book that 687 00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:29,360 I'm excited about. And like, I think for me moving 688 00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:35,560 forward, like there isn't a genre that like, I would like to 689 00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:38,640 make a musical at some point. You know, like I would like to 690 00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:44,640 make like my whole thing is I like movies that make you feel a 691 00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:49,880 lot of things and like, you know, like movies like you can 692 00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:52,600 count on me or the squid and the Whale where it's like you're 693 00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:57,960 laughing and it's, and it's like, and it's also like, like 694 00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:00,600 hurts you. It hurts your heart and like, 695 00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:03,520 and like, cuz that's like how life is to me. 696 00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:09,520 And I guess, you know, it just got to be an attraction to the 697 00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:14,080 story and the messaging. Cuz for me personally, it's like 698 00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:21,960 unless I'm, I believe in something, I can't like pass 699 00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:25,520 that energy to any actors or anybody on the cruise. 700 00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:29,240 So I just have to be like fully invested and believe in the 701 00:44:29,240 --> 00:44:31,520 story and what it's what it's saying. 702 00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:35,000 I I thought about Bound back when it when it came to the dark 703 00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,560 humor of this movie in moments. I thought about Margo at the 704 00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:39,720 wedding in particular, interestingly. 705 00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,440 So that's when you said that OK, excellent. 706 00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:45,800 I can't wait to see that I was I mean I was looking into early 707 00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:47,400 work. I'm not to check more of that 708 00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:52,080 out looks fascinating. I definitely am like a complex 709 00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:53,840 emotional story from what I see here. 710 00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:55,960 So that makes sense that that is what you're attracted to I. 711 00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:00,080 Mean I feel like my favorite movies are like my two favorite 712 00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,560 movies are probably like All That Jazz, the Bob Fosse movie 713 00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:06,760 and then about my mother, the Almodovar movie. 714 00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:14,200 And I don't know, I just like don't have like like genre. 715 00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:17,960 You know, I've just watched one movie that I watched that's 716 00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:20,440 older that I watched recently that I thought was so good was 717 00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:26,040 Flirting with Disaster, the David O Russell movie with Ben 718 00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:29,200 Stiller and Patricia Arquette from like 1994. 719 00:45:29,240 --> 00:45:30,720 Yeah, I haven't seen that in so long. 720 00:45:30,720 --> 00:45:37,880 Yeah, it's like so funny, but shot in like such a like, I 721 00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:40,080 don't know. It's so cinematic and like, 722 00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:47,640 yeah, like I, I I like movies that are like I wanted like 723 00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:50,880 treat an audience with respect. And I like movies that are like 724 00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:55,840 fun to watch. But like even the line, which 725 00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:57,800 has kind of a bitter after taste. 726 00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:01,400 Hopefully you it's it's a good watch. 727 00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:05,160 No, it certainly is and I'm hoping again our audiences can 728 00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:08,040 go check it out. That is Ethan Berger with the 729 00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:10,120 line that was the extra credits of the line. 730 00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:14,080 This will be releasing a major cities this week as listen, as 731 00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:17,080 we're hearing it, it's going to be releasing wide very soon. 732 00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:20,560 If this is going to come to you post theater, then you can check 733 00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:22,640 check this out and streaming in the coming months. 734 00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:25,640 I'm sure me and Kelsey will be talking about this movie once 735 00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:29,200 again at the end of our year list in 2024. 736 00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:32,200 Ethan, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for coming on. 737 00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:35,720 Love this conversation. Really excited for what you do 738 00:46:35,720 --> 00:46:38,160 next. Yeah, and it's super cool that 739 00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:41,440 you're doing what you're doing. And like, I love that the the 740 00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:45,240 film makers you're talking to and you're Ruben Osland like 741 00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:48,160 like story right from the outset, which is who's somebody 742 00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:51,040 who I admire like and it's it's super cool. 743 00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:54,560 So I appreciate being in their company and talking with you, of 744 00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:56,240 course. This has been Trey. 745 00:46:56,240 --> 00:46:57,720 This is the extra credits of the line. 746 00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:00,960 We'll be back soon, probably talking about the substance with 747 00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:03,520 a few other directors coming on the show in the next week or so. 748 00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:05,960 The YouTube channel has just started off, so thank you all 749 00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:08,280 for tuning in on video. If you're on video and if you're 750 00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:11,920 on audio, you can check out all the links to our Patreon YouTube 751 00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:13,360 in the description. Peace out.