Hello, welcome to the extra credits of Timothy Chalamet's A
Complete Unknown. I'm Trey.
And I'm Kelsey. So Chalamet fans are thriving.
We are thriving. All tabs are thriving.
Earlier this year, Timothy Chalamet gave a career defining
performance as Paula Tradies in Dune Part 2 went full Anakin
Skywalker Revenge of the Sith moment.
I know that character is inspired by Paula Tradies and
not the other way around. You get my point that Dune Part
2 is one of the most impressive movies of 2024, still arguably
the best movie of the year. That performance is excellent.
However, six months later we have a complete unknown.
We have this rendition of the Bob Dylan iconic figure, the the
myth more than the man and Timothy Chalamet's
interpretation of what he thinks Bob Dylan is in this James
Mangold film. And the rumors are, I guess not
rumors, but just kind of the conversation around this
performance is that Timothy Chalamet could be the youngest
best actor, Oscar winner of all time because of this role.
Even though I think the Paula Tradies role is probably a
little bit more up there for me and my Chalamet rankings, which
we can discuss a little bit today, I am really impressed by
our guy watching these two movies this year.
Me too. Yeah.
I went on with really low expectations but for his
performance and for the movie, but he was so surprised on both
levels. What's crazy is he's been on
like an iconic run since 2017, you know, like with Call Me By
Your Name, with Beautiful Boy, with Wonka, with Bones and all
like the Guadagnino projects, but also these kind of like
obscure indie films slash these like big projects that he's like
really, you know, I think exceeded expectations in which
is a big deal. And now he's getting closer to
30, much like us, he's in our generation of like that Zelenio,
which we'll discuss in a little bit too, which I think is
fascinating in as far as him becoming this like first major
Zelenio icon in Hollywood next to Zendaya.
I really feel like he's entering a moment right now of in 2024
currently where there's like, either my algorithms are just
Chalamet or he's in, which is likely.
But he's like in this crossover of artistic fame and celebrity
fame. Yeah.
And we don't really care about celebrity.
But in as far as using it the way that Chalamet is, which is
trying to get people in theaters, Yeah.
It's pretty incredible. It is, yeah.
We just really haven't seen this.
Recently it's wild too. Like, you know, we were, we were
talking about like, what was the strategy from his PR team?
No idea. No idea, But it's working.
Yeah. And, you know, he's just like
going into crowds of people like.
He had the look alike competition when he walked
through like he was Paula Tradies.
He's on red carpets doing like Dylan parody stuff like he's
he's bringing Beyblades onto carpets again, going back to the
Zillennial of him. He's like head banging to like
Kid Cudi on red carpets. He's doing Soldier Boy with like
Brittany Broski. He's doing college game day.
He's just. On.
He was on the Theo Von podcast and then was like, I like what
you do, but I don't really know your podcast.
Like who set up who set all this average genius.
It's I've never also seen him like since Wonka.
He's always been a kind of reserved, like hot sad boy.
That's been his bit right? And he's been Timmy.
He's really transformed into Timothy at this point, like
where he is more like turning into like a confident version of
himself. But since Wonka in that press
run, I feel like he's been on this year long press run of like
showing, Oh no, like I'm a confident artist and I just
happened to be rich and happened to be a celebrity.
But like I'm not from that background really.
Like I've grown up in the arts, but I'm not like he was just
explaining subsidized housing to Theo Von the other day on Theo
Von's podcast. And like what hit the the
apartments that his parents lived in.
And like he just has such a fascinating background is just
like one of the guys or like like a normal person basically.
And that's turned into this like larger than life symbol.
Like, it makes sense that he took on this Bob Dylan project,
but I'm just like, strangely, even though we're at such a
distance, like, proud to have somebody that represents.
Feels like kind of normal in terms of like not totally
detached. Exactly, exactly.
And I think that's been like a, a cool thing to see because with
Selenials and I'm just like making this word up, I guess
some people say it like that, that age group between the 28 to
32 group of people, adults who grew up with social media, but
like sort of not really like we were in that pre digital
footprint era, but yet had had social media accounts in our
adolescence. He seems to be in that phase of
like being plugged into like what he needs to be doing as far
as social media, but he also seems plugged out in a very
similar way to our generation. It reminds me of we just watched
DD which is one of my. Favorite.
I was just going to bring that up.
Yeah, of the year felt like it captured kind of like what the
start of of YouTube in Myspace were.
Right. And it feels like it's
representing this free social media generation, like right on
the the cusp of it. And so it's cool to see somebody
like him that is being that is this successful and is this
willing to put themselves out there.
And he's also an East Coaster. And you can feel the neurotic
energy coming from him, which is, you know, right on for what
Bob Dylan represents to as E coasters ourselves or former E
coasters now. Like it's deeply relatable to
see somebody who is like strangely confident, but also
neurotic, like having this level of fame.
So yeah, it's pretty awesome to see what he's been doing on this
press run. This should be a good moment to
say that we're doing a Chalamet month right now on Patreon.
We're covering Little Woman, we're covering Call Me by Your
Name. And we're running an exclusive
right now on our Patreon account, which you can check in
our description of this episode on YouTube or on Spotify,
wherever you're watching or listening to this.
And if you sign up as a free member on Patreon, then you'll
be able to access our collections tab of free episodes
where you can access Dune Part 1, in which we did A4 plus hour
deep dive into the text of Dune, a novel, a Frank Herbert novel
we had not read up until that point where we were reading
samples of it or like kind of like snippets of it.
And then really deep diving the movie that Denis Villeneuve gave
us and the performance of Chalamet, kind of going from
young boy Messiah to adult Messiah.
Love this maybe more than than the first time I watched it but
then also I was like it was in It's up there now with like Doom
Part 2. Also like I like it in different
reasons. Yes, they're different movies.
I think I like Doom Part 1 a little bit more than Doom Part
2, but Doom Part 2 is like unquestionably more quote UN
quote epic, you know what I mean?
It's more spectacle driven, he's given.
Maybe more to do? I think so too.
And hard to, right. So, yeah, I mean, we're also new
to video podcast. If you're watching this on
YouTube, go ahead, like and subscribe, comment below.
Let us know what some of your favorite chow Mein movies have
been in his project thus far. Yeah, He's had a really kind of
like eclectic career in the past seven or eight years.
He's done so many different types of movies.
Some argue that his supporting roles are better than some of
his major roles, like leading roles.
I don't know if you want to talk about this, but in terms of
rankings, I don't mind making this.
Putting this out there 'cause I just made a letterbox list and.
I saw that. Was that because I saw the
movies? You're doing justice performance
right. Justice performance is not the
movies, if that makes sense. Yeah, so.
I thought I was like. I think real Chalamet heads know
#1 is like tied between Call Me by Your Name and Beautiful Boy.
Like those are like the two like most obvious, most clearly like
career defining roles in as far as if you're a film fan and
something if you're also like a fan of award show something that
he should have been more recognized for in terms of
winning more awards for those roles, especially Beautiful Boy
and what that movie represented. And then Dune Part 2 obviously
is in that conversation. I think a complete unknown,
which is the movie we're going to be talking about today is in
that conversation. That's how good he is in this
movie. And then maybe Bones and all,
but that's like a personal pick. I try to be as objective as I
could have been, but like I really love that Guadagnino
movie and I think he is the most charismatic he's ever been in
that role in any of his movies. A complete unknown.
Some people have said that he's charismatic and he is, but it's
because he's Timmy. I think what he's trying to do
is the anti charisma, which is interesting.
So yeah, people can check our letterbox too in the description
to see that list. I'm going to.
Save my ranking for our call Me by your name because I have to
think about it a little bit more.
But I do agree that call me by your name is like really up
there with beautiful boy. But there is something about
that being his earlier career and and kind of what he's able
to deliver in a Doom Part 2 that almost makes me like put that
above beautiful boy He's. So good in Doom Part 2.
So I get it. Yeah.
I mean, it's, you know, it could be one of those things we look
back on. It's so recent, but like 10
years from now where it's like so clearly his best performance,
it's just hard to know because it's so recent.
I have to think about it more. Yeah, so the cool thing about
Shalami's work is he doesn't have a bad performance.
And those supporting roles, If we watch A Little Woman and Call
Me by her Little Woman and you know, Lady Bird recently, and
he's just so good at playing the sad boy, you can't help but be
sympathetic for her to differing degrees in those two films, but
especially Little Woman as Lori. And he's clearly taken on the
Leonardo DiCaprio playbook, the Christian Bale playbook, the
Joaquin. Phoenix and he talked about
that, too, yeah. He said his the movie that
inspired him to want to be an actor was like The Dark Knight
and watching Heath Ledger and Christian Bale in that film.
And it's very relatable for us in terms of what inspired us to
be movie fans was like sitting in an IMAX in 2008 and watching
this like. Heath Ledger, yeah.
Heat, you know, the Heat remake into the superhero film.
Yeah. So, you know, that's like an
iconic thing to say, but I believe it.
He feels like somebody who is trying to study the choices of
those kinds of actors, Heath Ledger included.
And so he is a sort of like, you know, you can't really attach 1
actor to him. He just feels like multiple like
celebrities at once. And he's also like not even
though the college game day thing, I think it's confusing
some people, his new fans, but he's not exactly like a like a
aggro like hyper masculine Playboy kind of guy.
Like that makes sense. He's not a Leo DiCaprio.
He doesn't treat himself seriously like a Christian Bale.
He's not eccentric enough to be a Joaquin Phoenix.
He's a little bit too relatable. And I would say that I would
argue that he is like just a little bit like chill in
different ways compared to those other people, even though he is
he's very volatile. Yeah, I think it is really
fascinating to see like all the different things he's doing in
this press run and all the kind of different personas people are
like tagging on to him. And because we've been following
him for so long and he's just in our algorithm, since we're like
similar age, it's like, I don't know, he is actually that that
guy. Yeah.
But so that, that's really like, interesting.
And I'm interested to see, like, all the new fans that come to
him. But also, just before we move
on, it's so funny that Heath Ledger and Christian Bale played
Bob Dylan. I know.
Yeah, in the Todd Haynes film. And now he's going for it, too.
It makes sense. I mean, he's doing another
biopic with the Ping Pong movie with the Safdie brothers next
year. Like a Wolf of Wall Street,
Catch Me If You Can movie. I can't wait.
And Gwyneth Paltrow is the love interest, I think.
Say less so. Yeah, he's one of our favorite
actors, you know, of our generation.
Yeah. Like, my favorite actor right
now is Robert Pattinson, but Chalamet's in that tear, in that
conversation. And there's others like Flo,
Pew, or. Sexual type of silly, you know,
like press run vibe from like a Pattinson.
An absurdist. Timmy that we personally love to
to see. Yes, yeah.
So there's a lot of great actors of his generation, but I think
Timmy has this strange self effacing absurdity while also
having insane, charming charisma that is just hard to, like, give
honestly voice to. It's hard to talk about some
people who have that kind of energy, which like there's a
gravitational pull to him that a lot of people feel.
OK, So I'm sure people who came to listen to us talk about Bob
Dylan are like, what the hell? You're going to get it.
I've done a lot of prep. I'm not a Bob Dylan guy.
I've weirdly turned into one over the past month.
Listen to a lot of music. Yes.
Yeah. We're not.
We're not Bob Dylan people. So like, that is also something
to know going into this. If we get some details wrong
about Bob Dylan's life, like, yeah, you know, kindly correct,
correct us in the in the comments.
That's fine. Well, I don't care.
We can't prepare. We're wearing all black.
We have these sunglasses from the at our critics screening.
They gave us these. Yeah, we can put them on.
I don't know if I can. I think hopefully we look sick.
Men in black. It looks men in black, doesn't
it? It doesn't.
I thought the same thing. We'll just like.
Edit. This out can you see?
Any of them? No, that's what I'm saying.
It's, I mean, our lighting isn't blinding me.
At least you know we can't continue with this.
Maybe we'll use it for the for the thumbnail. 3 pose.
I hope we look sick. All right.
OK, so complete unknown. We tried to like channel Bob
Dylan today. It's hard to it's hard to
channel Bob Dylan because there's so many different
interpretations of who he is, even to the the man himself and
in a complete unknown. Does Bob Dylan know who Bob?
Dylan, does he even exist? Yeah, I think he would like that
question. He's still alive today.
I do think that, you know, he would genuinely like that
question. This movie is really good.
Yeah, I think it's really good. It seems to be pretty divisive
online. I think it's great.
We're not Dylan heads though, so we just recently, you know what
I mean? We just recently became aware of
this person. We'll talk about our
relationship to him in a second. But A Complete Unknown is a
really conventional movie that is really good at what it's
conventional at, if that makes sense.
It is like two different movies at the same time.
And I think 1 is really fun and interesting and good and the
other is underdeveloped, yet it's interesting that's in the
film. So let's get into like why?
You know that is before we dive too deep in a spoiler.
So we'll still stick in non spoiler territory right now
because we're recording this a little bit early before it comes
out. Why?
Because we saw some so many weeks ago.
Now I've seen it twice, so a Complete unknown directed by
James Mangold, based on a book called Dylan Goes Electric,
which details Dylan's famous 1965 performance at the Newport
Folk Festival, I believe is what it's called, which becomes a
major moment in the film, a great tense moment, but a great
moment of of music in this movie.
And the music in this film is incredible, where we get to see
Dylan transform and kind of reinvent his musical identity,
going electric essentially, not just something better, but to
something different. I think as he puts it in a a
cafe with Elle Fanning's character, when they're talking
about another public figure and the book, you know, that real
life book and then this film approached Dylan's life with
this very cautious lens in the mid to late 1960s.
With care, they're hoping to contextualize him as this like
unknowable icon. They want to also unpack the
public and media narrative izing his life and identity and I
personally think the film successfully at a high level
depicts a powerful transformation of this
unknowable artist that doesn't necessarily depict him as a
depressed genius. This is like a great man myth
movie. I don't think it is.
It also doesn't depict him as this like aspirational larger
than life figure and instead the movie tries to depict him as
this sort of confusing, enigmatic, fascinating American
cultural symbol or artifact less than an actual note, a man that
we can know that much about. And to do this, they give us
some like formal former folk stars that inspired him on his
journey to come to New York in the 1st place for Minnesota.
We also get this love triangle that unpacks the audience's
relationship to different eras of Dylan, like how they think
they know him but might not totally know him, which is
similar to the woman in his life.
And they become the emotional core of the story, especially
the folk singers, too, with Woody Guthrie in particular, and
Pete Seeger as well. And so there's, like, the
biographical part of this movie, the biopic part of a complete
unknown, I think is really effective and successful, even
if it's just a series of, like, linear vignettes, which are
conventional and standard. I just think James Mangold is
good at making rewatchable, like, dad movies, and this movie
is one of those. Yeah.
It is like a four versus Ferrari in a sense.
Like which? Is this kind of like the
festival how you're talking about as like a pinnacle point
to show a shift right in the narrative Like that felt really
successful? Yes, however, and this is where
like the movie is not perfect, it has a ceiling.
The film also attempts to find a deeper, more important through
line, if you will, considering the era of the civil rights era,
considering what this Bob Dylan figure meant to the public and
meant to people who are being exploited or oppressed or
marginalized in this era and still are.
And so that more nuanced through line that this movie is trying
to hit on in terms of what Dylan represents politically.
And then his transformative journey alongside that in kind
of paralleling his transformative journey with the
cultural and musical revolution of the time.
Whether that's successful or not, I think is up for debate.
And I think that's what we're going to be discussing a lot
today. Because you have this era in the
60s of civil rights tensions. You have racism, you've
anti-Semitism on TV's a lot that's not necessarily on the
forefront of this film. You have conversations about
desegregation. You have as a result, like these
massive protests, sometimes again on screen, sometimes on
random TV's, you have whispers of new legislation you have
oncoming or you know, just happened assassinations.
So you have Dylan kind of walking into Greenwich Village,
becoming this star during this revolutionary era and time where
he gives voice to people who are voiceless and using this
democratization of music through folk music and the evolution to
pop and rock at the same time to try to give people up a power
through through language and communicating through music.
And we also see music executives behind the scenes kind of
reckoning with the fact that they can't pressure musicians
just to do like traditional songs anymore because they're
all these musicians in the 60s coming out of this era,
including like Johnny Cash or Joan Baez, who are trying to
have a voice in these troubling times and be artists.
And so he becomes Dylan, becomes one of these musicians who are
breaking traditions and conventions and mirroring these
human rights move movements in this movie.
This is where it struggles, I think, attempts to use Dylan as
like a Rosetta Stone of the moment.
And I don't think it totally does.
I don't think it totally knows how to.
And I don't think it feels comfortable in that space.
Yeah, strangely. Yeah, well, I think, you know,
again, I was like laughing before when I was like, it's
it's a great movie. It's also because I know nothing
about Bob Dylan. So like as a movie going in with
low expectations, it worked because of the reasons that
you're talking about, just like technically and pacing and, and
storytelling. But I think I, you know, I
watched the documentary on Max. What was that one called?
The 90. Minute 1.
Don't look now. Don't look back.
Yeah, and don't look now, but the that documentary I went, you
know, when I watched the Bob Dylan kind of like interviews
that how he was interacting with press and different answers he
was giving in terms of like what his songs mean.
I was my reaction was that, oh, I watched a completely
different, you know, interpretation of who Bob Dylan
was. That's really the point Chalamet
film and so and also it felt like they didn't really go into
some complicated features of what Bob Dylan means to culture
and also what his songs and and his maybe responsibility or not
that he is maybe like, I guess like or willing to to have more
like the the words or lyrics of his song that the film just kind
of like totally sidestep that. But I didn't know at all because
I just don't have a relationship to Dylan.
But that was interesting and I wish you're right.
Like, I think there's a ceiling in the sense that it's safe in a
lot of ways, right? Right.
Yeah. And so, yes, it is very safe in
many ways, especially politically.
And really, that's kind of what I was getting to, which is that
the movie seems to be like trading a lot of that kind of
reaction ISM of the time or the conversations about is Bob Dylan
an anarchist or a chaotic person?
What does he think politically? And because this is during like
a red scare movement, you see also like red scare imagery
throughout a complete unknown. And so it's not like they're not
discussing it or it's not like it's not a part of the the text
of the film. It's in the imagery of the
movie. It's just that they're not
really expressing too much about it.
And it's way more interested in Bob Dylan's relationship to his
own identity through the woman in his life, and also Woody
Guthrie in particular. The the man in the hospital for
those who don't know and Scoot Mcnary's character who is
dealing with an illness and and doesn't pass away in the film.
And so he's kind of a he becomes like a symbol or motif in the
movie where it's like this recurring thing that Bob Dylan
goes to do when he doesn't know, almost like this is my
interpretation, doesn't know quite who he is anymore.
He's been trying to discover a new identity for himself.
And we know he's changed his name.
And in real life, he did a few times moving from Minnesota to
New York and him is Bob Dylan. It feels like he never got to
shape his own identity before the media got a hold of him and
was shaping his identity for him or the public at large.
And he never got to really pay homage to Woody Guthrie in a way
that he thought was significant. And it's sort of feels like he's
reckoning with the fact that he thinks that he stole the soul of
somebody who died too young. And like he's he's carrying, you
know, this legacy forward, but also wants to have his own
identity, which is why him going electric.
It's such a big deal. It's not because he's a
contrarian, which he sort of is, you know, in real life.
It's not because he's counterculture, which he
certainly is in real life, but it's also because he's trying to
find his own artistic space. Yes, his own identity, which I
think is actually really beautiful and aspirational.
And like, I think the movie gets that across.
I just think unfortunately, what it what it, you know, exchanges
for that Woody Guthrie part in the love triangle part.
Is this more kind of like politically confrontational part
of Bob Dylan life? Yeah.
If you watch the Martin Scorsese documentary, which you can right
now on YouTube or Netflix or the Don't Look Back documentary that
you're talking about the 90 minute 1, or if you watch
honestly, like any really Bob Dylan interview from the 1960s,
he is like a politically challenging person.
He is confrontational. He's obviously clearly using
music as a way to communicate to to young people, but also like
he's speaking to like Congress and his songs like and so that
aspect of this movie is really missed because they almost paint
Timothy Chalamet the direction, the interpretation of Dylan is
safer They and it's not Chalamet fault.
Chalamet kills it in terms of what he was asked to do.
It's just that they paint him more to be like Yoda.
They paint him like he's just hide.
He's a recluse and he's apathetic, indifferent.
Elle Fanning's character introduces him to Civil.
Rights. It's not a great man movie at
all, but it does have this like quiet genius, like, you know,
threads in it a little bit. Yeah, there are moments like
where Joan Baez is like listening in on his music and
then come sit next to him and he's like, how did you do that?
He's like, I'm in the carnival. It's like, whoa, you're in the
carnival. It's like, I don't believe like
the character's like I don't believe you.
And so yeah, there's a little bit of that, but also there's
not enough maybe that he was like because of my
interpretation, I guess we just talk about it now.
My interpretation of Bob Dylan from the documentaries, like the
real life Bob Dylan, because I've had to do a lot of like
prep for this episode. I watched the two major
documentaries about his life, which are like a total like 5
hours of runtime. I've read a lot of work about
his life, not just during the 60s but post 60s.
And I don't think this movie actually agrees with my take.
So I'll just say mine, which is that I think Bob Dylan is like a
deeply angry, lost intellectual and in this 1960s.
And instead he's painted as somebody who is sort of unaware
in the movie. And I think that is convenient
because then it leans itself into a safer approach
cinematically. You can rely on other characters
giving Bob Dylan a voice in an emotion.
And that's certainly interesting.
Like the woman in this movie in particular, like Monica Babaro
is Joan Baez or Elle Fanning as the other woman in this film,
both giving great performances, especially Babaro.
Who will discuss who's my extra credits of this film She.
Was amazing, yeah. On on the surface, it's
interesting because it's like here, the woman that are
actually making the genius genius, but we've seen that
trope before and it's like so unnecessary to continue that
instead, instead of actually giving us fully developed
characters, especially for Joan Baez in her own right, being
just like talented musician of her era.
But it almost it leans into like Pete Seeger and Woody Guthrie,
all these other people who make up who are, who make up what we
know of as Bob Dylan from the 1960s as this like protest
singer, this folk singer turned protest singer turned pop rock
radical singer. And instead of actually looking
at maybe this interviews with a little bit more of a skating
lens, which he seems like he was frustrated with how the media
was Co opting his name and also frustrated that he was sort of
rejecting his responsibility to be a little bit more direct.
And the media. There's a lot of self hate that
I'm interpreting when watching Bob Dylan documentaries, like
when he's confronting interviewers, like he obviously
hate, he hates what they do for a living in terms of trying to
search for a headline and like what he's not doing correctly or
trying to Co opt his words and the meaning of what his words
mean to them. And Bob Dylan knows he's living
in a time where people are going to jail and being identified as
communist. And so he's like afraid of his
of being too clear in his politics.
But you could see the regret in his face like mid answering when
he's like, or if he's like flipping a question back on an
interviewer. So they're always like, what I'm
talking about really are like complexities of a human being
who is a larger than life figure who didn't mean to be 1.
And so like that aspect of Bob Dylan's life is totally missed
in this movie. I I mean in my opinion.
Yeah, I mean, I was surprised to see the the footage of him like
this like confrontational person that I didn't feel like I even
saw in the in the movie. It felt like he was like, way
more, I guess, reserved and and wasn't like, kind of there is
one moment, right, where Joan Baez is like, you know, you're
kind of an asshole, like Bob or whatever because he tells her
that her songs are like, oil paintings and, like a dentist
office, Right. Yeah.
So there's like a moment of that.
But I didn't feel like I was seeing a kind of like person who
was actively like, you know, confronting and and having like
these kind of like emotionally really like challenging moments
with people around him where it was like unclear at least just
for my interpretation of like how much he was in on this idea
that he was actually challenging them because he disagreed with
like maybe what the the journalists were doing
completely as much as also he like didn't know how much this
is just my interpretation. I was like, how much
responsibility is he comfortable with?
I guess like taking in terms of his the the lyrics of his songs
and like that felt like kind of, I guess something that was
interesting that would be interesting to explore.
At least I would like to see in a film of like, well, like how
much, you know, as a as a figure, like is he built up in
terms of the contrast of how, how he is like willing to take
baby just like the the weight of like what he's saying and on.
And so that that was a really interesting tension, at least in
the documentaries. And again, of course, there's
always like a framing, but those were very clear in in his
conversations with journalists and with his team.
Especially don't look back when he was talking to the time
interviewer, for example. And it was like very clear that
because sometimes when you listen to Bob Dylan fans and we
have some people in our life who are Bob Dylan fans who we went
to go see the movie with and also discussed the movie with.
And this is a big question a lot of Dylan fans have online that
I've noticed is how aware is Bob Dylan, his own counterculture
persona? Like how aware is is he as this
like politically radical person? Like does he actually have an
ethos or does his music accidentally just speak to the
moment? How much of is the subconscious
coming through reverse the intentionality of his music?
And he's somebody who rejects intentionality in the era of the
60s and posts until today. I think like he rejects the idea
of like him needing to explain intention because of the way
that people will ultimately run with that.
Story wise, my view of Bob Dylan is that he is living in an era
where it was kind of like he can't be direct, he can't be too
self aware because they need is held to a higher standard.
And I think that he was struggling with should I become
a social rights activist or should I stay becoming a stay a
musician? And that's really in trying to
balance those two things at the same time.
And clearly Timothy Chalamet relates to this.
I mean, Timothy Chalamet does movies about a drug epidemic in
this country, does movies about colonialism and false messiahs.
And like he does movies about imperialism.
He's he's doing films about like child films like Wonka.
But then you watch Wonka and it's like this anti toxic, the
toxicity of religion, right, and capitalism.
And like he's doing movies about big ideas.
Though if you asked Timothy Chalamet a question about his
politics in an interview, he won't answer the question.
Like he won't answer directly at least some people.
Identifies as an artist, yeah. Which we don't need to be
looking at our artists, right, for like, yeah, I guess like
specific guidance in terms of like politics.
But it is interesting. But there is also like a
convenient, you know, nature that I was seeing in that like
Bob Dylan interviews at the same time, right, of like rejecting
responsibility. But again, I don't I am
interested to do like more research on him as a figure,
because it was fascinating to to just watch him talk about his
songs. And so because I don't, but I
also want to say like, I don't haven't watched everything,
don't know everything. That was just like my
interpretation from. Think Dylan fans are going to
come for us in the comments? Well, I'm protecting.
I'm protecting. Guys like it's, we're trying.
Like, it's not like, like I like the history of hip hop and rap
music. Like I've always, this is my
bias Going into the Bob Dylan movie.
I was not excited for A Complete unknown.
And as far as it being a Bob Dylan biopic, I was excited as a
Chalamet fan. I did not realize I'd walk out
turning into a Dylan like fan. Like, yeah, at least I'm a fan
of the concept of Bob. Dylan, yeah, Like, I want to
know more about like, what he means culturally and.
That has surprised me because I had always viewed and again
this. Is I'd always been uninterested
in him too. Well, I think because Bob Dylan
was supposed to represent a voice for the voiceless of the
60s and on. But in our generation, it
really, I've always, always attach Bob Dylan to the
demographic that's in love with him, which tends to be like this
overly educated, like upper middle class demographic who's
like obsessed with this like counterculture revolutionary
that almost treats him more as an aesthetic and a real.
Person. So I've always rejected, I've
been allergic to Bob Dylan, but I've realized that me and Bob
Dylan share the same allergy, which is that we're both
allergic to the way that people have taken his name and ran with
it in a different way, which is like certainly what he in those
documentaries talks about a lot, which is like, no, I didn't say
that. You said that like that kind of
energy he would put on. That's another thing like Bob
Dylan is pissed. Like if you watch those
documentaries, he's an angry guy.
He's like hitting his face on the microphone and doing his
songs and live concerts. So like.
Oh, you know what? Timmy did do that in the movie.
There are moments of that but but it felt more like he was
just doing it for entertainment sake or.
Performance or it felt like I was seeing someone like in the
character, like deal with something internally or like be,
you know, have conflicting feelings.
It didn't feel angry, like I kind of saw him the true Bob
Dylan footage. Right.
Yeah. And so I think I guess my point
was, is that this movie, it's two separate films.
I really like one of them. The other one like frustrates
us, but it's it's like endlessly something you can like discuss,
right. Which is like, does this movie
even is it even aware of its own politics that it could be more
aware of? Yeah.
And it and it is like there's moments where you have music
executives being anti-Semitic and there is a moment where you
realize Bob Dylan changes the last name from Zimmerman to
Dylan, maybe arguing that he came from like Jewish roots in
Minnesota, which we, I think we've learned in real life that
he did. And he doesn't discuss those
things very much. He's very private, right.
In real life. He actually didn't even see this
movie yet, I believe, But he gave notes on the screenplay.
What he was offered to give notes on it.
And the only thing he gave notes on was the love triangle.
He wanted to get Elle Fanning's character in particular more
context because apparently she was more of a trophy character
in the original screenplay, which makes sense that he would
want to give a note on that, considering it is his real life.
But it's other people's lives that are kind of being
manipulated in in a in pop culture in this way.
But there's also like really kind of, I don't know.
The movie feels uncomfortable when it tries to do something
political. Like there's real life footage
of Dylan that Elle Fanning's characters watching on a bed at
one at one point in one of the vignettes of this movie.
And it's footage of Bob Dylan in the famous March on Washington.
And it's Chalamet's face composited over the real life
footage of Bob Dylan. And it looks embarrassing, like
visually. And it also feels.
Politically embarrassed Chalamet.
Unexamined in terms of what that significant moment meant for him
in that in that era. And he almost doesn't want to
lean into that too much because then has to have that
conversation. And there's also no openly
Jewish characters in the film. I believe there's not many black
characters in the movie or like developed characters.
And so like it's it's a very white dad movie because it's
made by James Mangold. But fortunately the performances
are so good and the direction is again, what it's conventional
at. It's really cinematically like
great at that. I am giving it like a little bit
of like a pass in as far as having the ceiling of like a 3
1/2 to four-star movie that I just had a really good time with
in the theaters. But that is just so
underwhelming considering the era, like intellectually
underwhelming considering what it could have done.
It really made me throughout the movie go, this is really well
shot. This is really well scored,
great design. Performances are incredible.
They're letting these actors. Read the.
Tactical world building in the 1960s.
I believed where they told me I was, but it really made me want
to see somebody like Paul Thomas Anderson make this movie, or
Steven Soderbergh, right, like David Fincher, Danny Boyle.
Really someone like interrogate and kind of address like what
Bob Dylan means culturally in terms of his lyrics, rather than
just like Bob Dylan as an artist that is an enigma like.
Yeah, I mean that because that's that's really what they focus on
is he's that he's basically unknowing.
OK, we can get more into the movie.
So this is a biopic like we were saying.
So the movie does start off with Timothy Chalamet's Bob Dylan
kind of walking into New York City looking for Woody Guthrie.
And Woody Guthrie, again, like I said, becomes like a motif of
the film. And I think a.
Reflection point for like Timmy or.
To reflect on his identity. Bob Dylan, Bob Dylan and maybe
Timmy, I don't know. And you really believe where you
are. Like I said, the sets feel
tangible. I I think the atmosphere is
felt, which it was in Ford versus Ferrari.
It was in Logan. We've seen James Mangold do
this. No comment on Indiana Jones 5 or
whatever last year. That was tough.
But I do remember the sets of that movie actually been pretty,
pretty epic sometimes. But so he's he's good at
building a world and his team is, but we see that he is over
the next five years, I think from 61 to 66 and forgetting
exactly the timeline. But he's struggling with the
fact that his musical identity is really owed to this dying man
in a hospital. And then he can't really find
his own identity before it's too late, before he's recognized by
his fans in the media and public at large that he is this new
folk singer that that Seeger Edward Norton's character is
introducing as like somebody who's going to bring back
traditional music. While you have Bob Dylan sending
like love letters to Johnny Cash, is Boyd Holbrook's John
Cash, who's also so good. Very compelling.
I realize it was him until you told me like and also.
He's totally immersed in it. Like singing wise, I was I asked
like is that him? I mean, I think Timmy his
singing also is great. Like that's also I think why I
came into this movie. Low expectations for a biopic,
but also low expectations especially for stars singing in
it. Movie like about an artist and
it. I thought it was good.
Yeah. No, I thought it was.
I thought it was excellent. I think a lot of this thing is
excellent. I mean, Joan Baez, like, has
like an angelic voice. And I think Monica Barbaro nails
that, like, really well. So yeah, I think the next over
the five years, we see Chalamet kind of go through this, these
different views on like how Bob Dylan dressed, how he spoke, how
he handled himself openly in public, the different kind of
relationships he had. And the movie is less
interested, and I think Chalamet, too, less interested
in creating a caricature of Bob Dylan, even though right away
you're worried in the hospital when he's like, speaking under
his breath. Yeah.
But Timmy is so committed on like giving his own
sensibilities over to this character.
He's not committed to doing like a total recreation of who Bob
Dylan was in documentaries. It's very clear that Chalamet
have like an idea of like how he wanted to add his own style.
Like there is something a little bit like self assured about
Chalamet's Dylan while also being insecure, while also being
a little bit fragile. But also there's something
sensual about him that is very Chalamet coated because Bob
Dylan, like, I guess say what you want in terms of like how
hot you think the the the man in the myth, the legend is, but he
was like a really angry guy. And I think that's where a lot
of people projected attractiveness onto him.
Chalamet's doing it more so like I'm understated and that's
what's interesting about me. So again, don't come for us in
the comments. We disagree with that.
Just I mean, it's just my take, but yeah, I mean, I think it was
interesting to watch him go through these like five years
unpacking, you know, Chalamet's performance, unpacking the myth
of what Bob Dylan is to us and maybe him and just kind of give
us that strange charisma that that Chalamet has too.
And so, yeah, I mean, what did you think about the love
triangle verse, the doctor sequences, going back to see
Pete Seeger and then seeing Woody Guthrie verse, going to
see this love triangle verse, going to maybe the more
political like how how in on the being a revolutionary is Bob
Dylan? Those 3 storylines, which one
did you find yourself most captivated by regardless of like
the one that you maybe you wanted to see the most?
Like which one do you think worked the most in this movie?
Yeah, well, I think, I mean, for the reasons we just talked
about, the kind of political like aspects of the story kind
of fell flat. And I, I wanted to see more,
especially with Elle Fanning's character and kind of like, and
Bob Dylan in that that sequence. But I think the the love
triangle like really? I think so to me.
It kept me emotionally really like anchored in the movie,
especially towards the end. Are we are we doing doing to say
spoilers? Yeah, Spoilers.
Yeah. But especially towards the end
of the movie where he's like running after Elle Fanning's,
you know, character like at the ferry.
And there's this like sense of and like losing this relatable
like or or like whatever is like true to him and his as a person
like aspect that was like really interesting, just emotionally
like to keep me in the story and and I felt like it, it really
like delivered at the end. I believed their relationship,
even though Timmy did such a good job of being so reserved
and kind of like standoffish to the women and purposely being at
arm's length at all times. But I still believed in in the
characters and, and how they were like, attracted to each
other or like, you know, the conversations that they were
having. Even though some pieces felt
written, I was, I guess like I was in the movie, it was
successful in the context of the film.
Yes, they made the gravitational pull of Bob Dylan of this era,
or at least in this fictional movie, like relatable enough
where you kind of buy into the fact that these two like, like
gorgeous, intelligent woman would like still kind of deal
with his BS. Yeah.
And want to be with him to a certain extent.
Do it. Yeah.
And so the one thing, OK, so my
interpretation of what the goal was with with the love triangle
was to obviously learn more about Bob Dylan as they were
trying to learn more about him. But that Joan Baez, the
character Joan Baez in this movie, maybe not in real life.
And Monica Barbaro's performance is supposed to be illustrating
that these are people who have an idea of who Bob Dylan is.
And Joe Baez falls in love with Bob Dylan's writing.
She falls in love with what he represents as a symbol.
And Elle Fanning's character actually wants to know Bobby
like he wants. She wants to know him.
And she might fall. She may have fell in love with
this person. And so the movie is like showing
Dylan at a crossroads of does he want to be a guy or does he want
to be a man? I'm just kidding.
Or dude, I guess, but I think that is what the movie The movie
is positing. Like I.
Think that's true? I didn't even think about like
what their relationships. Representative, Does he want to
live in a? Flat, yeah, it does capture
without fanning tension of what he is kind of like reckoning
with. Yeah, as like how the culture
seeing him verse like that's what I'm saying like when he
finally goes to chase her at the ferry, it is like him like
almost like actively understanding that he might be
letting go of like that piece of him of anyone really like
knowing him. Yeah, yeah.
He brings like a real quiet melancholy to that moment.
Yeah. That I don't think the real life
Bob Dylan seems to like have that, like have access to.
Yeah, just. From always.
Seen it. I like yeah, from from those
documentaries of that specific era.
To be clear, I've never really watched anything 70s on and says
he did some other stuff in the 70s with Bob Dylan, which I'm
excited to check out after this. It'll be feel like a sequel in
my mind because I truly know nothing post civil rights era
about Dylan's like life and like what he did in concerts.
But yeah, I mean, it seems like Xiaomi added a melancholy.
He added something like this is she seems to love, you know how
he had. How does these like I think he
like filters his mind through his music, his folk music and so
on. And Joe Baez seems to like
really love that verse. Like there is this something
about how grounded and normal the Bob Dylan figure actually is
behind the myth that the Elle Fanning character deeply relates
to. I just wish these two characters
were like actually characters and and especially Joe Baez's
character. Like this is a famous star, but
Elle Fanning's character too. Like we learned that she's a
painter. There's a party at her house at
one point. They show her paintings.
There's obviously like these, these attempts that
contextualizing the woman behind the myth, right.
And so the movie doesn't want to be trophy.
It doesn't want to be superficial.
But it almost becomes more obvious that it is superficial
because even when they attempt, you're like, this isn't still
like a developed yeah character. So that's unfortunate.
But it's Elle Fanning, who I've never seen give a bad
performance. Yeah, it's Monica Babaro, who I
don't know much about, but she was one of the the pilots in top
of Maverick, which is why Tom Cruise came to the the screening
and did a picture with Timmy, which I thought was.
Wondering why he was there? Yeah, I asked you if that was
fake. I thought it was AII was like,
wow, it's really getting sadly good.
But no, it was real Tom Cruise and Timothy Chalamet in a
picture. So yeah, like we have we have
the that love triangle that I think is also really compelling.
I don't think it works as I think the hospital stuff works a
little bit less, but ultimately the movie ends kind of going
from that broken love triangle to Bob Dylan making this final
trip before his infamous motorcycle crash that is off
screen in this movie. Meaning you wouldn't even know
it about the crash if you didn't know anything.
About our friend was who really like knows a lot about Bob
Dylan. Was so surprised they didn't put
it in the movie. Well, so I think.
I think they like allude to it obviously like you're.
Saying in my research, it's a controversial subject because I
think the movie posits a little bit it's going into the
conspiracy of like, did Bob Dylan get into as severe an
accident as it was reported in the news?
Because maybe this love triangle and this this going into this
like later latter half of the civil rights era going into a
post 65 next five years is Dylan needing a break of like in terms
of the way that he is molded by the media.
And also considering he's like left these two partners in his
life because apparently he took like a long break from music
after this accident and it was reported that he had like these
major injuries. No idea about, I'm assuming all
that's true, but apparently the move, the reason the movie is
playing into the mystery of that is it just seemed like he needed
a break in that he was. And Woody Guthrie also died like
off screen a little bit after that final meet up in the
hospital. And that might have left an
impact on him considering this was like a very iconic figure to
him that inspired him to come to New York City in the 1st place.
And that's kind of where the the movie movie ends.
We skipped over a lot of stuff. We skipped over a lot of great
music, a lot of great live performances, a lot of a lot of
great Xiaomi. Staring not quite into the lens
of the camera, but right off the lens and doing these little
fate, these subtle facial gestures, like him sort of being
attracted to Johnny Cash doing music or or other moments when
he's alone watching people. Yeah.
Well, I just love the like what Timmy is doing here, obviously,
like it's so much of it is like subtle in terms of his like
inner conflict that he's able to show just through like his
facial expressions. But but yeah.
And the concerts too, even like during while he's performing
like that is really well done. I have like a lot of like
favorite music from Bob Dylan now that I've been listening to
him nonstop for a month. It's really just been like
Kendrick's new album, Bob Dylan, which probably makes no sense to
my algorithms, but it is like the girl from the Northern
country is like one of my favorite songs from him.
And I like the him and Monica Barbara's like rendition of
that. Are we about to do like a top
three? No, I was just going to note
that surprisingly, one song that I've never really seen in the
Bob Dylan soundtrack is the song to Woody, the song that he sings
to Woody Guthrie. It's actually the first song in
the movie I believe, where Chalamet walks into the
hospital, gets kind of jump scared by a custodian, like
mopping the floor, which I noticed on the second watch.
I was like, why? They shoot that so scarily?
And he walks into Pete Seeger and Woody Guthrie talking and.
Then he sees that song. And it's a really emotional
scene on rewatch, considering that that's like a father figure
to him in the movie. It presents in that way.
And when you see Woody like hitting the table that he was
happy with, like the performance that he did that, you know,
Bobby just gave to him. I was like, really in I mean, I
just called him Bobby. I feel like I know, you know
what I mean? Like I was like, this is really
this is great stuff. And there's other, you know,
very good songs in this movie that are tense, especially when
Monica Babaro's character and Timothy Shalom's character are
like, you know, starting to be at odds with one another.
And they're they're singing on stage.
You really feel that tension. But yeah.
Do you have any other favorite songs you want to mention or
favorite performances? Not songs because I can't really
remember any like that. Like they're all like pretty
good. And I'm also not a huge like Bob
Dylan fan in terms of like knowing specific names of the
songs, but I think in terms of like the actual performances,
Can we do extra credits? My extra credit is the singing
because I am normally not in on like the kind of performances
that actors give with singing, especially if it's like a really
well known, you know, person. Like even though I'm I'm not a
huge fan of Bob Dylan, I've heard Bob Dylan songs before,
right? And like there's so much kind of
risk within that. But I thought like Timmy did a
great job. So I thought Joan Baez.
Were you surprised Monica Bambaro was the?
Bassaro also like amazing vocals and they also did so well doing
duets like I was just. Shocked.
Were you surprised how good Chalmet was?
Because obviously singing, singing was because obviously we
just saw Wonka, right? Like, it feels like two months
ago, but it was almost a year ago now.
Yeah. And it's hard to be the Gene
Wilder performance. But it's just a different
performance, a different movie. The character demands different.
Roles I was a little, I'm so in on the Gene Wilder performance
that I really wanted that in this Wonka and it took me a
minute to like. I saw had.
To Yeah. I was really impressed what
Shalom is doing in that movie, just because he's being so
extra, but he's asked to be so extra and ultimately it's a kids
film and it made $700 million. Or something.
It was made for kids, right? The Gene Wilder performance I
think was like a little bit he was doing this like, I mean,
that's it's just a different movie, right?
So yeah, so I ultimately I take back anything I said previous in
the pod. I think Tim was good at Wonka.
I like the times they are changing when I think Monica
Bobaro's character goes into the basement of a bar because
everyone's trying to leave Greenwich Village because of the
Cuban Missile Crisis, I believe. And they think there's going to
be like a nuclear Holocaust. And they're really speaking to
that era. They're trying to like put the
stakes being that there's some, this is like tumultuous time
politically, but also like globally, not just domestically.
And I think they get that across.
But Bob Dylan just goes to like sing people a song responding to
that era, something that he had already written that we saw him
starting to write and her sort of falling in love with him,
taking action in a way, like it was a form of protest.
He wouldn't even leave. He's like, I'm just going to
stay here with these people. And I really love that moment.
And I think it speaks to what you're saying.
The music's really good, But also these performance, these
performers are unafraid to fully like make these songs their own.
Like if you listen to Chalamet singing, they released the album
on Spotify or, or I think you know, all apps, whatever.
I recommend listening to it because even if you've already
seen the film, listen to a back-to-back with Bob Dylan.
He really does. And so, so does Monica Barre
with Joan Baez. Really try to add their own
style to the music. And I do think that's really
important because I think we're in a terrible landscape of
biopics where everyone's trying to recreate what a celebrity
meant to somebody or what they were great at.
And that might not be the good move.
That might not be the actual like refreshing move.
The refreshing move could just be we have a, you know, we have
these like parasocial relationships with these
celebrities who are playing these these actors.
It's because they're like these artists, celebrity figures.
So why not add your own sensibilities to the role?
And that might seem kind of basic to listeners, but I do
think that's a big deal in the landscape of biopics right now,
which is really tough. And I think they were excellent.
So I totally agree that the musical parts.
Yeah, well, I just wanted to give it extra credit especially
too, because, yeah, the the singing could be something that
the movie would completely like fall apart on.
If he was so. Much of it if he was bad in
particular. Yeah, My extra credit is Monica
Bibaro as Joan Baez. I just thought she was magnetic.
Like Timmy has a gravitational pull, but so does she.
And it's really hard because like she doesn't really, she's
not really giving a huge character.
She's not giving a lot of screen time.
But every time she is on screen, like I can't look away.
Like she has like an iconic face like, and I think that that, you
know, is going to afford her a lot of opportunities in movies
like this. Unfortunately, women are not
given complex roles and like this male dominated industry,
especially in terms of like so many men writing films like this
in this space. But I hope that she is given
more complicated, complex roles because she clearly is going to
be like on our screen for the foreseeable future just because
she is such a an interesting person to look at.
Look at she just looks cinematic.
And so the fact that she's also a good actor is is awesome.
Yeah, obviously Tom Cruise knows something.
He literally just came for her and he said that she's going to
be like a big star. So it's pretty cool.
She was almost my extra credit so.
Yeah, yeah. OK.
That was the extra credits of a complete unknown.
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opinion, that's cool too. Yeah, just nothing.
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What else do we have? It's Timothy Chalamet month.
You can follow our letterbox in the description, but you can
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But it's a great film for this month.
And if you sign up for Patreon right now as a free member,
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But you will have access to A4 plus hour deep dive of our
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