Music. Hello.
Welcome to the Extra. Credit of Todd.
Phillips and Joaquin Phoenix is Joker.
I'm Trey. And I'm Kelsey.
We're back talking about. Joker.
We just recently reacted to Joker. 2A movie that we both
mostly liked, and now we're returning to that conversation
with a lengthier deep dive into this polarizing 2019 film.
Joker, 2019. Was a divisive detour.
And superhero comic book cinema. It was a movie that grossed over
$1 billion. Which is wild.
It is a film that was nominated for 11 Oscars, getting Joaquin
Phoenix win for his performance as.
Arthur Fleck. And it was a complicated,
divisive movie that. Was a bit.
Well intended and what it tried to do in its character.
Study of Arthur Fleck. And also felt a bit like an.
Edgelord political statement. And I remember us being
somewhere in the middle. Of how we felt.
About this movie then and now so today we're going to try our
best to find some nuance and what works and doesn't work
about this film because it is a. Complicated cultural artifact.
It's almost turned into this Fight Club movie.
So how are you feeling after prepping this movie?
Because I'll just. Stay at the top.
It has been a depressing ass experience.
So like. Watch.
Joker over and over again and like, take notes on this movie.
I think I like it less than I did if you would have asked me a
month ago. Not because the movie changed my
mind about anything or I realized a new motivation from
Todd Phillips or Phoenix. But this is just this world of
Arthur Fleck is just a lot. To be in for you.
I don't know that it's a movie that is meant to be watched like
multiple times within a week like we did and always do to
prep these deep dive episodes. But yeah, I mean, it's been an
interesting experience rewatching Joker just because it
is like that. Interesting.
I think conversation culturally that's happened around the 1st
movie in 2019 and then now the sequel.
And so when we first saw it in 2019, I appreciated it for what
it was doing in the comic book genre of films, right?
I appreciated that we weren't just seeing this moral binary of
superhero and villain and we're actually maybe looking at
different issues or thinking about like how we could
understand an Arthur Fleck like figure.
But like you said, there are also criticisms of the movie,
some that I agree with, but also there were interesting things
happening in terms of like the conversation around the movie
that I don't even know are in the text that we'll talk about
today. And so that's why these are
fascinating movies to talk about.
But yes, definitely like a depressing experience to take
notes on this and watch it over and over again.
And I probably have a different relationship to it after
watching it now, taking notes on it, having to like sit through
the purposeful dread of the movie.
But it's a way less enjoyable experience, even though I'm
interested to hear what you think about it because we really
haven't talked about this since like 2019.
Yeah, we. Talked obviously in depth about
Joker 2 and why I thought that movie was more thematically.
Focused. Than a lot of what's going on
this an original Joker film even though it seems like the entire
Internet disagreed with our episode or takes because.
Sure. People hate this film,
understandably to a certain degree and also not in some
ways. My one take away after watching
both of these movies and sitting in the the mind of Phillips and
these films is that these movies clearly do not want to.
Exist, but they also feel like they have to exist to like.
Destroy the superhero industrial complex?
I'm not sure it ever. Gets there.
Do I think that that's a really. Bold thing to.
Do absolutely because this. You know, contemporary superhero
cinematic landscape currently is filled with so much formula and
convention and what the MCU and the DCU are doing to movies is
very complicated and has been for a long time, but especially
right now. So I am down for that kind of.
Feel. Bad experience of like feeling
like the joke is on us, the audience when watching these
movies. That we're.
A part of what's being satirized in these films, I think that's
really impressive. But also there's a level of.
Why do we need another character?
Study about an Arthur. Fleck figure.
You know, there is a level of that going on.
We've seen Taxi Driver, King of Comedy.
Serpico Dog Day. Afternoon network.
Or, you know, like I said, fight.
Club The Wolf of Wall Street. These are like.
Four to five Star Movies. I don't think Joker one or two
are quite there for me in that. Tier of let's say.
Very angry. Dark satires about corrupt.
Individuals that are a symptom of systemic or institutional
failures. So I do understand the basic
criticism of why did these movies even exist?
Especially because they so. Clearly don't even like
themselves, like they don't even like the genre that they're
playing in. And as a superhero fan myself
and a fan of what Joker represents as like this
manifestation of Batmans contradictions, as this
vigilante, I think that's so interesting.
But yeah, I'm excited for today. I'm excited to unpack this
movie. It was just, it's been a lot.
To sit with. Yeah.
And also, I think I, I've come to realize that the movie is
successful in the comic book genre.
And that is a like a personal opinion because I don't have
maybe, or maybe I have a different relationship to the
comic book movies than maybe other people do.
Like you don't want their Joker to be depicted in this way and
want to stick to very much like, you know, the comic book
portrayals. But again, like, I think that
this movie succeeds in ways where we're looking a little bit
deeper or like in a more interesting way into a Joker
character. But because of the constraints
of the comic book, you know, landscape, that's also where it
fails, because it can't really do things like King of Comedy
can do because again, he is still Joker at the end of the
day. Yeah, the Arthur Kleck.
Arthur Fleck character study I guess.
Coming to this villain origin story deconstruction.
And those two. Stories not always meshing well
in both of these films is definitely felt.
You can kind of feel that the the movie tonally never really
gets at that. Maybe Blend and Phillips talked
about wanting to. Create like a chaotic.
Direction in both films. I think it's a convenient
reading of like, his own movies that feel ultimately sort of
thematically messy. Though like we've already.
Said still kind of important in as far as like, interrogating
the genre and the industrial complex of superhero films.
I think that's fascinating. So let's back up a bit.
Before we jump in, I want to quickly outline and.
Discuss Todd Phillips's career the divisive.
Writer and director of 2019's Joker and now 2024's Joker.
Two he. Has been a film.
Maker for almost like 3 decades. Now, we started off in
documentaries and he had a few notable ones, one featuring a
controversial rock star, another about the toxicity of
fraternities. And then naturally went from
those documentaries about those kind of broken men and got more
into comedies about broken men, more like illicit raunchy.
Crude 2. Thousands comedies, I think.
A lot of people associate maybe Will Ferrell with Todd Phillips
because of old school. Yeah, but I would say.
That Will Ferrell comedies that were more.
Parodies. Light satires.
Stepbrothers. Ricky Bobby, Anchorman, Those
movies. Feel a lot lighter.
In terms of what they're doing with their comedy when it comes
to Phillips films and. Let's say old school.
Road Trip, The Hangover movies. Those films are the.
Humor is a lot darker. They're often about insecure,
confused white men who are stuck in Arrested Development and they
go on these chaotic adventures that basically go wrong.
He Co wrote Borat. So this guy wasn't making tragic
character studies and he wasn't making these kind of cartoonish
Will Ferrell comedies. Although there were like, yeah,
Arthur Fleck adjacent figures, I guess in in those comedies of
the the kind of like manchild comedy era of that time.
Yeah, absolutely so. He was making movies.
I think that tried to balance being this very knowing.
Satirical portrait of. Broken men like the Hangover
films. While also.
Depicting bad male behavior, apologism sometimes and then he
came off as this 2000s going to early twenty 10s kind of a
contrarian provocateur where his sensibilities were deeply
questionable. But also like.
That was a different movie landscape.
The Academy nominated him for best screenwriter on Borat,
which is a deeply dumb movie with bad politics of 2006.
I think worst politics in 2024. But his?
His. Movies were just really
successful, not just critically, but commercially.
They made so much money so. Pre joker Todd Phillips is.
Already very famous, and kind of.
Low key rich. He was one of the most.
Commercially successful directors.
Of the 21st century, pre Joker and certainly the most
financially successful director in comedy maybe of all time.
I don't know how to look that up by genre, but I'd be curious.
And after the billion dollars that Joker made?
He's actually tied. Right now with George Lucas and
M Night Shyamalan for the highest grossing film makers of
all time, he's about to enter into the top 15 highest
directors if Joker. Two hits that. 400 to $500
million box office. That's wild because I, I like,
wouldn't even think of Todd Phillips.
I know, maybe until Joker comes out and then we, you know what I
mean? Right.
Well, famously, Phillips. Opted out of his director's pay.
In the first Hangover film and he took points on the back end
of whatever the original grossed.
And the rumor was? That he made hundreds of
millions of dollars on the Hangover trilogy for Warner
Brothers, which gave him a blank check to make a few movies.
He made the Miles Teller Jonah Hill movie.
War dogs. I don't know if you remember
that Bradley Cooper. Has a cameo in that or
supporting role in that as well. And then he ended up being a,
you know, that movie ended up being this kind of mostly
unsuccessful comedy and kind of a wake.
Up call for his. Career in 2016 so the
inspiration to make Joker really happens around that time and
this. Is a pretty wild story if.
If listeners don't know. Basically the way.
Phillips puts it is in 2016, he has enough money to call it
quits. He's very rich.
Comedy is evolving, and he was standing outside opening night
of War Dogs knowing the movie, the movie was probably going to
lose money, smoking a cigarette, thinking about the end of his
comedy career. And he's been on record saying
that he was. Frustrated because he thought.
Comedy was dying because people were too sensitive.
Which disagree. My thing, the comedy directors
out there. Is try a bit.
Harder, you know, I've saw it, last year's theater camp, and
that was one of the funniest movies I've seen in years.
And it was incredibly inoffensive.
And what it was being offensive about, it was being very knowing
about. And I thought that was clever of
that film or a movie that I think was dealing in like,
almost taboo subject matter. The Jennifer Lawrence comedy
last year. No hard feelings like comedy
still. Exists with a Really.
Smart writer. So I hate when directors are out
here saying stuff like that. It feels very much in that Joe
Rogan. Chapelle verse of We can't say.
The truth anymore? Instead you just want to be a
contrarian and kind of an asshole and make money because
you're an asshole. So you know, he was kind of self
reflecting on how he can't make money off being hateful as much.
That was the energy. We can't make like sexist,
racist jokes anymore kind of idea of death of comedy, which
is like there was this is also, this has been said to a lot of
like people too in interviews. Like Jordan Peele was famously
asked like, oh, you know, are comedies dead?
And Jordan Peele was like, no, I like, have you seen Pen 15?
Which is why he's one of my favorite directors, because
shout out to the pen 15 watchers out.
There. And that's a good point too.
A lot of great comedy has moved to television, much like how You
know we were on a Tony Scott episode recently on.
The Awards Watch podcast. And we were talking about how,
you know, Tony Scott films today just aren't being made.
But also maybe. They are.
They're just. A lot of action.
Shows with high budgets. In, you know, Netflix.
Or Apple Plus TV. Series that nobody's watching or
Amazon Prime. That are about like.
International espionage or geopolitical?
Those are like series. Right.
Yeah, so maybe it just has moved over to streaming and I think
we're seeing a return to comedy. So anyways, the.
Idea go or the The story goes that Phillips was.
Becoming concerned with his capital in the comedy space.
He's smoking outside his War Dogs premiere, which is just a
funny image to me. He's looking up at a billboard
and he's looking up at this massive advertisement for a new
superhero film, and he just started getting really annoyed.
About the cinematic. The state of movies.
It does sound cinematic, yeah. And it reminded me a lot of
Birdman actually, which is a movie we just watched recently,
which is not a movie I love, though I think interestingly, I.
Think Todd Phillips would probably support?
What it's trying to do, and it's satire of superhero films and so
Phillips. Talked about how.
He and. Other directors were quietly.
Very angry at this comic book industrial complex thinking that
it's sanitized mainstream films, it's creating empty formulas in
the MCU and DCU and even in finalizing adults in some cases
and so. He thought well.
I want to make a comic book movie.
Let me use my capital that I have right now.
Let me use this kind of niche storytelling that is really
popular in this moment that feels like we're in this 80s era
of action fantasy films, but through superheroes and capes.
Yeah. And let me use adult themes.
Let me try to use my favorite movies.
Let me combine my, you know, sensibilities with the
aesthetics of my favorite films. Taxi driver.
King of comedy, Dog Day afternoon network, these famous
70s. Early 80s feel.
Bad Scorsese Lumet movies and let me.
Cross all that with the superhero.
Genre, really. Any thought?
Well, if I'm going to do that, let me do that through a villain
origin story. So he called up.
Warner Brothers that night. His connects there.
Pitched them on the story or pitch them on a villain origin
story and he got $50 million from a few production companies
within a few weeks. Warner said they would.
Distribute it they backed. Another $100 million in
marketing and he got the green light.
To reshape it. Pretty wild origin.
Yeah, I just like pictured as you're explaining this, he's on
the way home in his car, you know, and he has like Warner
Brothers on the car phone, yes. Exactly, Yeah.
On the highway. Like a Michael Douglas like
game, the game situation or something.
Absolutely. But yeah, it's a pretty.
Cool. Also, again, kind of red buttony
contrarian origin story unironically to make this sort
of contrarian sort of heartfelt Joker film as this cautionary
tale in a comic book genre mold. So fascinating background on the
movie, but I think. Before we get too.
Deep into the joker of it. All we should probably just
start today's episode. Because we do have a.
Lot to get to. I'd also like to talk about.
Joaquin Phoenix's career, maybe. Yeah, some light ranking
conversation to see where this performance.
Stacks up because. I don't know if Joker is in my.
Top 3 or 4. Phoenix performances.
He's had such an eclectic, weird, strange career, but so
many highs. I don't think he's ever made a
bad movie. Or sorry, I don't think he's
ever. Had a bad performance, yeah,
though has made bad movies, yes. So that would be an interesting
conversation. Definitely, yeah.
Because I don't know either, although this is certainly like
an iconic Joaquin Phoenix, you know, performance.
Is one of the most. Transformation, right?
But yeah, OK, we'll definitely have that conversation.
OK, so today's episode is. Exclusively on Patreon, as
always our Patreon episodes. Are deep dives, but they're also
live. Commentary.
So we will be. Discussing Joker while watching
it. If you're on the main feed,
you're listening to a sample of this episode, so if you want the
full discussion, you can go into this episode.
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So we appreciate any kind of, you know, review and also
written review. In true living plus fashion, we
are watching Joker on Max today as our like live watch and we
have Kendall Roy as the little icon of our profile, but it's
he's just in the top right hand corner of our screen.
He looks amazing and just looking down on Joker, who's
like on the stairs right now. It's an amazing image.
Do you think Joker is in Kendall?
Roy's top five. On or top four on letterbox?
It's it's probably a. Probably it's.
Probably he. Probably.
Loves this movie. We definitely whenever we end up
doing the succession, you know, deep dive when we return to it
years later, but we have to talk about like Kendall Roy's, you
know, letterbox top four his we'll have a lot of.
Be very like. Fuck the.
Patriarchy. It might be in his bio.
Yeah. I can't wait to discuss that.
All right, For anybody who wants to.
Watch this Like Elsie. Said it's on Max or you can buy
the. 4K like we did. All right, on play.
We'll start the movie. 321 play. So I I think we should start
today's. Conversation with more back
story on this project and contextualize the making of it
and intentions and motivations versus the final product in the
conversation around what maybe the motivations were and.
Also, I'd love to. Discuss our relationship.
To the Joker figure. And how this is such a Seminole
figure for our generation, specifically with the Ledger's
performance in the Nolan movies and then for me as a as a Batman
nerd. I really love this character.
Yeah. And as far as the representation
in this universe may be different now that.
I have a relationship. To this iteration.
Of the character. Well, I think Joker even, you
know, I mean, I watched Batman films growing up, but I wouldn't
like religiously watch them. But I still always thought that
Joker was the most interesting character so one.
Of the most compelling for sure. OK, so Joker.
During pre production in August of 2017, about a year after
getting financing, Phillips sought out some big names
outside Joaquin Phoenix to join his.
Which was already a. Huge name to get playing Joker
in the 1st place. This is an actor who you would
assume hate superhero films. He almost, you know, was rumored
to be. Cast as Doctor.
Strange before Benedict Cumberbatch.
Was. But apparently just like could
not see himself in that role. And so him and Leo, who've
always been competitors, who? Who talk about?
Loving each other. Deeply and who love each other's
work really tried to. Stay away from superhero movies,
but it makes sense to me that Phoenix got this call from
Phillips took months to. To work it out.
And was like, as long long as we make it a character study, as
long as it's an attack and satire on the genre, I'm down.
So outside of Phoenix joining the.
Crew we get. Martin Scorsese in the headlines
about potentially coming on as a producer.
Right, which is a really. Big deal.
So then you have Phillips going out to get Robert De Niro.
To play the pivotal role of the talk show.
Host Murray Franklin, who is essentially the standing
character for exploitative media.
Which starts up a. Theme that Phillips will more
fully develop in the second Joker film.
And apparently, the rumor goes. That Phillips got Scorsese.
On as a producer, but then Marty toward, you know, I guess, I
guess during production ended up stepping back due to other
commitments with the Irishman that same year for Netflix,
which is a great movie hopefully.
We can talk about that. On the podcast one day.
But what's really interesting about him stepping out is this
is also the same year, I believe, that he came out and
said for Empire magazine, I think, that Marvel movies
weren't cinema and that they were theme parks.
And like roller coaster rides. And that was a.
Yeah, that was a really big deal, that was.
The first time, I think. Water cooler talk.
For movie fans, you know at work or with friends at bars.
Whatever really got provoked to be like, oh, is this high art or
are we? Watching kids stuff and are we
being infantilized by this industry in some ways?
And that was a really divisive online moment too.
I I remember that distinctly because that is when End Game
came out too. Which is a huge.
Deal for marvel fans like us but ultimately looking back at that
moment and obviously now I I think.
A lot of people who are critical of.
Scorsese for saying those things were being unreasonable and the
headlines at the time also perpetuating that Scorsese hated
comic book movies was a really uncharitable read and I'd I'd.
Go as far as to say. That some comic book movie fans,
if not a. Lot of us, probably.
Share Scorsese's opinions about this topic right now in 2024 and
watching what's happening to Marvel and watching what's
happening to DCU, which is to say that.
We're all collectively irritated at this.
Kind of like supply chain of the same kinds of movies where
you're looking at these money making machines who have.
Forced theaters to. Exhibit movies that all look,
feel and sound pretty similar and are kind of thematically
unserious most of the time, which is a really dangerous
commercial formula that I think Scorsese as one of the kind of.
Preservers of this art. Form in the meaning behind it
and the kind of balance of making art in this commercial
industry somebody. Who was like deeply skeptical of
of superhero? Films at the time.
Yeah, I mean, because we're, I mean, we enjoy comic book and
superhero films, but definitely I think the the formulaic design
is really felt now, especially now that we're past end game.
It felt like we were moving towards something.
And then, you know, obviously we feel the lack of stakes like as
as an audience for these type of movies.
And I've I've always personally felt that about like DC movies.
They've never really like clicked for me, but but it's
definitely like a conversation that is very similar to what
Martin Scorsese was saying. It's just that, you know, I
think that the, the what is it called like phase. 4.
Is that through end game? Yes, I believe so.
That that was a good time. Yeah.
That was like, almost. Objectively.
A good time. Like like we had.
Original movies too in that genre like Guardians of the
Galaxy was breaking expectations.
Black Panther was incredible, like an Oscar nominated movie,
which is a huge deal in the genre.
Infinity War and End game. Were truly like you had to.
Be there moments in IMAX theaters with people who were
just so pumped to be collectively invested in this
art form, in these. Stories that felt like.
These massive modern myths. Allegories that we all.
Kind of like we're interested to see what would be next.
But yeah, it does feel like. Since post end game.
All stakes are pretty. Absent.
Yeah, which? Is true to comic books.
So I know real comic book heads like don't give a shit.
They just want to be a part of the different worlds and
different iterations of these characters.
But some of us who aren't comic book fans are more fans of the
maybe comic book universe. Cinematically, what makes movies
so profound is that. They do have.
Stakes. They are over in two hours and
when it feels like they're not and they're going to be going on
forever and no one's. Really dead.
That does leave a little bit of. Like cynicism, you know,
especially in this commercial art form.
And also, I think I got like, fatigued by needing to keep up
with every thing, especially in the Marvel Universe TV shows.
Yeah, like I need to know everything about.
We did. We tried with the Disney TV
shows but just just could not do it.
We'll get back in. I, I think after the Doctor Doom
announcement, even though that was its own cynical thing that
happened with Downey Junior. We're not going to get into that
right now, especially now that we're still not on a paywall
yet. Maybe post the?
30 minutes, we could talk about it.
But hopefully Joker. Does inspire some more kind of
like, you know, convention breaking ideas in this genre.
So anyways, the whole point I was trying to get out there was
that Scorsese was on the whole taxi driver king of comedy thing
was coming alive because of him being on there and also getting
why am I thinking of Robert Downey Junior but De Niro
different Robert both great and then.
Scorsese left the project, so the.
Film opens. Joker opens with the 70s.
Warner Brothers logo, we hear the local radio host.
Saying it's October 15th spooky season.
We're almost there ourselves. This this shot.
Is zooming in closer. To the Arthur character.
We're hearing about this. Garbage strike over the radio.
There is a citywide. State emergency there is
garbage. And rats everywhere, apparently.
Super rats. Thank you.
And yeah, this is a very Moody, aesthetically dreary
atmospherically. Bleak.
Beginning to to a comic book movie that I don't think we've
ever seen before in this genre. So even though I did say that
this movie is like depressing to keep rewatching, I find the
beginning of this movie every time I restart the film to be
kind of like exciting in a weird way because there is nothing
else. Like this, you know.
Yeah. And I remember when we were
first, you know, seated in the theater and we're watching a
Joker movie that I, we knew would be kind of like a darker
portrayal of or a character study, you know, possibly.
But it did really that the tone of the movie felt so different
from anything we've ever seen, this kind of push in on Arthur
Flack or the Joker character. And we kind of go from the
handheld of just his, like his face and him putting on this
makeup to the mirror reflection. Yeah.
The reaction shot to the mirror shot.
Yeah, is really kind of like, haunting, but also really
intimate to write you like you have a different tone than than
you have before going into this, you know, super villain quote,
UN quote, like movie. And to watch him put a smile on
his face and have his makeup run because he's crying is just a
different portrayal than what we're used to in the comic book
genre. It's really a tragic.
Opening to then playing this clown like comic like music as
we go out into seeing Gotham that is.
Really. Well, digitally rendered.
They're doing a lot on practical sets and some on sound.
Stages, but the production. Design in this movie I think is
pretty incredible. We said it on Joker 2.
But I would say. Production design in both films
is Immaculate like I mean. It's just great.
Vibes in terms of like the cinema of it all, maybe not
great vibes in terms of the emotions because it is a lot to
take on multiple watches and you do kind of feel hollowed out by
the end of the first Joker film especially.
But yeah, we go from that shot of him forcing himself into a
smile crying to then him dancing.
Outside a store with. A sign that says everything must
go. Yeah, And I would say that the
the production in this like Gotham or New York City is a
really good balance of this high fiction world.
Like the news feels like we are in this maybe what you'd see in
a in a Batman movie of like now, like coming to you live with
this, like new news about what what's happening in the in the
Joker, in Batman's world, but also making it feel like a
little bit more grounded, like a taxi driver when we're on the
street with Joaquin Phoenix, having this like sign of
everything must go. And also establishing that there
is such a situation that will be like set up for this really huge
disparity in wealth inequality that we'll go into with like the
the Thomas Wayne figure. But I I just really enjoyed how
they kind of like put us there visually and I didn't really
appreciate it until we saw the second movie.
As well. You know what made me appreciate
it? I.
Re watched parts of. Matt Reeves's The Batman, which
I think is one of the best movies of the twenty 20s in that
certainly pulls a lot from its own favorite films, like 7 for
example. But you don't.
Have that the. Batman grounded nightmarish
aesthetic. Without.
What Joker's production design team did.
Here, they really did. Ground this elevated genre some
somewhere. Special you also probably.
Don't have Joker without something like Logan, which is
its own kind of X-Men version of this hyper gritty.
Extra stylized world that still feels a little bit like it's a a
reality from your. Own different.
From your own futuristic, but grounded.
Yeah, it's like a futuristic desert.
Right, so. Is holding his sign.
A bunch of kids jump him. He gets hit with the sign.
The Joker title card pops across the screen.
You hear the Oscar nominated composer going.
Crazy with the Arthur. Hi.
Hello there. Sorry for interrupting.
Yeah, thank you for listening so far and hopefully you are
enjoying Yeah, the episode so far.
I feel like maybe if you made it this far.
They got it this far, you're. Having a good time?
I mean, let's hope. But to access our full
conversation, you can go to the description of this episode to
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