1 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:18,240 Music. Hello. 2 00:00:18,240 --> 00:00:20,280 Welcome to the Extra. Credit of Todd. 3 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:22,280 Phillips and Joaquin Phoenix is Joker. 4 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:23,640 I'm Trey. And I'm Kelsey. 5 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:25,600 We're back talking about. Joker. 6 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:29,520 We just recently reacted to Joker. 2A movie that we both 7 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:32,759 mostly liked, and now we're returning to that conversation 8 00:00:32,759 --> 00:00:36,760 with a lengthier deep dive into this polarizing 2019 film. 9 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:40,160 Joker, 2019. Was a divisive detour. 10 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,600 And superhero comic book cinema. It was a movie that grossed over 11 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:46,840 $1 billion. Which is wild. 12 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:50,960 It is a film that was nominated for 11 Oscars, getting Joaquin 13 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:53,240 Phoenix win for his performance as. 14 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:56,960 Arthur Fleck. And it was a complicated, 15 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:00,080 divisive movie that. Was a bit. 16 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:02,320 Well intended and what it tried to do in its character. 17 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:05,600 Study of Arthur Fleck. And also felt a bit like an. 18 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:08,040 Edgelord political statement. And I remember us being 19 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:09,960 somewhere in the middle. Of how we felt. 20 00:01:09,960 --> 00:01:13,080 About this movie then and now so today we're going to try our 21 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:16,640 best to find some nuance and what works and doesn't work 22 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:19,880 about this film because it is a. Complicated cultural artifact. 23 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:23,200 It's almost turned into this Fight Club movie. 24 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:26,480 So how are you feeling after prepping this movie? 25 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:27,520 Because I'll just. Stay at the top. 26 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:29,680 It has been a depressing ass experience. 27 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:31,080 So like. Watch. 28 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:33,640 Joker over and over again and like, take notes on this movie. 29 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,200 I think I like it less than I did if you would have asked me a 30 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:38,840 month ago. Not because the movie changed my 31 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:42,600 mind about anything or I realized a new motivation from 32 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:46,040 Todd Phillips or Phoenix. But this is just this world of 33 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:48,280 Arthur Fleck is just a lot. To be in for you. 34 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:52,880 I don't know that it's a movie that is meant to be watched like 35 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:57,720 multiple times within a week like we did and always do to 36 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:01,880 prep these deep dive episodes. But yeah, I mean, it's been an 37 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:05,760 interesting experience rewatching Joker just because it 38 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:07,040 is like that. Interesting. 39 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:11,160 I think conversation culturally that's happened around the 1st 40 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:13,960 movie in 2019 and then now the sequel. 41 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:20,280 And so when we first saw it in 2019, I appreciated it for what 42 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:23,840 it was doing in the comic book genre of films, right? 43 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:29,080 I appreciated that we weren't just seeing this moral binary of 44 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:32,760 superhero and villain and we're actually maybe looking at 45 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:35,600 different issues or thinking about like how we could 46 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,040 understand an Arthur Fleck like figure. 47 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:43,080 But like you said, there are also criticisms of the movie, 48 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:47,200 some that I agree with, but also there were interesting things 49 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:49,320 happening in terms of like the conversation around the movie 50 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:51,680 that I don't even know are in the text that we'll talk about 51 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:54,200 today. And so that's why these are 52 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:56,080 fascinating movies to talk about. 53 00:02:56,560 --> 00:03:00,440 But yes, definitely like a depressing experience to take 54 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,480 notes on this and watch it over and over again. 55 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:07,640 And I probably have a different relationship to it after 56 00:03:07,640 --> 00:03:12,040 watching it now, taking notes on it, having to like sit through 57 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:14,480 the purposeful dread of the movie. 58 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:19,560 But it's a way less enjoyable experience, even though I'm 59 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:23,360 interested to hear what you think about it because we really 60 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:25,880 haven't talked about this since like 2019. 61 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:27,840 Yeah, we. Talked obviously in depth about 62 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:31,400 Joker 2 and why I thought that movie was more thematically. 63 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:33,520 Focused. Than a lot of what's going on 64 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:36,760 this an original Joker film even though it seems like the entire 65 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:39,600 Internet disagreed with our episode or takes because. 66 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:41,280 Sure. People hate this film, 67 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:44,240 understandably to a certain degree and also not in some 68 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:46,800 ways. My one take away after watching 69 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:49,480 both of these movies and sitting in the the mind of Phillips and 70 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:53,080 these films is that these movies clearly do not want to. 71 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:56,960 Exist, but they also feel like they have to exist to like. 72 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:59,200 Destroy the superhero industrial complex? 73 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:01,280 I'm not sure it ever. Gets there. 74 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:02,840 Do I think that that's a really. Bold thing to. 75 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:07,360 Do absolutely because this. You know, contemporary superhero 76 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:10,360 cinematic landscape currently is filled with so much formula and 77 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:15,440 convention and what the MCU and the DCU are doing to movies is 78 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:18,200 very complicated and has been for a long time, but especially 79 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:22,440 right now. So I am down for that kind of. 80 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,560 Feel. Bad experience of like feeling 81 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:27,840 like the joke is on us, the audience when watching these 82 00:04:27,840 --> 00:04:28,960 movies. That we're. 83 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:31,640 A part of what's being satirized in these films, I think that's 84 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:34,160 really impressive. But also there's a level of. 85 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:36,320 Why do we need another character? 86 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:37,880 Study about an Arthur. Fleck figure. 87 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:39,800 You know, there is a level of that going on. 88 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:41,920 We've seen Taxi Driver, King of Comedy. 89 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:44,800 Serpico Dog Day. Afternoon network. 90 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:47,120 Or, you know, like I said, fight. 91 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:49,400 Club The Wolf of Wall Street. These are like. 92 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,520 Four to five Star Movies. I don't think Joker one or two 93 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:56,640 are quite there for me in that. Tier of let's say. 94 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:59,240 Very angry. Dark satires about corrupt. 95 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:03,000 Individuals that are a symptom of systemic or institutional 96 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,760 failures. So I do understand the basic 97 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:09,320 criticism of why did these movies even exist? 98 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:11,920 Especially because they so. Clearly don't even like 99 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:13,960 themselves, like they don't even like the genre that they're 100 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:16,120 playing in. And as a superhero fan myself 101 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:19,440 and a fan of what Joker represents as like this 102 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:22,480 manifestation of Batmans contradictions, as this 103 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,160 vigilante, I think that's so interesting. 104 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:29,840 But yeah, I'm excited for today. I'm excited to unpack this 105 00:05:29,840 --> 00:05:31,600 movie. It was just, it's been a lot. 106 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:32,840 To sit with. Yeah. 107 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:37,760 And also, I think I, I've come to realize that the movie is 108 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:41,360 successful in the comic book genre. 109 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:46,560 And that is a like a personal opinion because I don't have 110 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:49,600 maybe, or maybe I have a different relationship to the 111 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:51,960 comic book movies than maybe other people do. 112 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:55,280 Like you don't want their Joker to be depicted in this way and 113 00:05:55,280 --> 00:05:59,080 want to stick to very much like, you know, the comic book 114 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:01,760 portrayals. But again, like, I think that 115 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:06,520 this movie succeeds in ways where we're looking a little bit 116 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:10,480 deeper or like in a more interesting way into a Joker 117 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:13,000 character. But because of the constraints 118 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:16,640 of the comic book, you know, landscape, that's also where it 119 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:20,720 fails, because it can't really do things like King of Comedy 120 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:24,000 can do because again, he is still Joker at the end of the 121 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:25,280 day. Yeah, the Arthur Kleck. 122 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:28,760 Arthur Fleck character study I guess. 123 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:33,600 Coming to this villain origin story deconstruction. 124 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:36,600 And those two. Stories not always meshing well 125 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,000 in both of these films is definitely felt. 126 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:42,120 You can kind of feel that the the movie tonally never really 127 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,960 gets at that. Maybe Blend and Phillips talked 128 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:48,760 about wanting to. Create like a chaotic. 129 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:50,880 Direction in both films. I think it's a convenient 130 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:53,760 reading of like, his own movies that feel ultimately sort of 131 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:55,640 thematically messy. Though like we've already. 132 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:59,800 Said still kind of important in as far as like, interrogating 133 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:03,080 the genre and the industrial complex of superhero films. 134 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:05,760 I think that's fascinating. So let's back up a bit. 135 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,520 Before we jump in, I want to quickly outline and. 136 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:12,520 Discuss Todd Phillips's career the divisive. 137 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:16,280 Writer and director of 2019's Joker and now 2024's Joker. 138 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:17,760 Two he. Has been a film. 139 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:23,280 Maker for almost like 3 decades. Now, we started off in 140 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:27,360 documentaries and he had a few notable ones, one featuring a 141 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:31,200 controversial rock star, another about the toxicity of 142 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:34,000 fraternities. And then naturally went from 143 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:38,480 those documentaries about those kind of broken men and got more 144 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:43,160 into comedies about broken men, more like illicit raunchy. 145 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:46,320 Crude 2. Thousands comedies, I think. 146 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:49,440 A lot of people associate maybe Will Ferrell with Todd Phillips 147 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:51,760 because of old school. Yeah, but I would say. 148 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:53,520 That Will Ferrell comedies that were more. 149 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:55,920 Parodies. Light satires. 150 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:59,120 Stepbrothers. Ricky Bobby, Anchorman, Those 151 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:00,520 movies. Feel a lot lighter. 152 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:02,960 In terms of what they're doing with their comedy when it comes 153 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:06,840 to Phillips films and. Let's say old school. 154 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:09,920 Road Trip, The Hangover movies. Those films are the. 155 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,720 Humor is a lot darker. They're often about insecure, 156 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:16,280 confused white men who are stuck in Arrested Development and they 157 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:19,120 go on these chaotic adventures that basically go wrong. 158 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:23,000 He Co wrote Borat. So this guy wasn't making tragic 159 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:27,840 character studies and he wasn't making these kind of cartoonish 160 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:30,240 Will Ferrell comedies. Although there were like, yeah, 161 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:35,600 Arthur Fleck adjacent figures, I guess in in those comedies of 162 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:40,039 the the kind of like manchild comedy era of that time. 163 00:08:40,039 --> 00:08:43,559 Yeah, absolutely so. He was making movies. 164 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:47,360 I think that tried to balance being this very knowing. 165 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:50,640 Satirical portrait of. Broken men like the Hangover 166 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:52,080 films. While also. 167 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:56,680 Depicting bad male behavior, apologism sometimes and then he 168 00:08:56,680 --> 00:09:01,280 came off as this 2000s going to early twenty 10s kind of a 169 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:06,160 contrarian provocateur where his sensibilities were deeply 170 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:07,880 questionable. But also like. 171 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:09,360 That was a different movie landscape. 172 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:13,000 The Academy nominated him for best screenwriter on Borat, 173 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,600 which is a deeply dumb movie with bad politics of 2006. 174 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,360 I think worst politics in 2024. But his? 175 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:21,160 His. Movies were just really 176 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:23,640 successful, not just critically, but commercially. 177 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:27,080 They made so much money so. Pre joker Todd Phillips is. 178 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:29,680 Already very famous, and kind of. 179 00:09:29,680 --> 00:09:31,440 Low key rich. He was one of the most. 180 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:33,200 Commercially successful directors. 181 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:36,960 Of the 21st century, pre Joker and certainly the most 182 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:40,080 financially successful director in comedy maybe of all time. 183 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:42,920 I don't know how to look that up by genre, but I'd be curious. 184 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:46,360 And after the billion dollars that Joker made? 185 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:48,960 He's actually tied. Right now with George Lucas and 186 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:51,240 M Night Shyamalan for the highest grossing film makers of 187 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:55,000 all time, he's about to enter into the top 15 highest 188 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:58,160 directors if Joker. Two hits that. 400 to $500 189 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:02,360 million box office. That's wild because I, I like, 190 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:04,560 wouldn't even think of Todd Phillips. 191 00:10:04,560 --> 00:10:07,680 I know, maybe until Joker comes out and then we, you know what I 192 00:10:07,680 --> 00:10:08,360 mean? Right. 193 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,280 Well, famously, Phillips. Opted out of his director's pay. 194 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,800 In the first Hangover film and he took points on the back end 195 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:16,240 of whatever the original grossed. 196 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:18,360 And the rumor was? That he made hundreds of 197 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:20,960 millions of dollars on the Hangover trilogy for Warner 198 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:25,440 Brothers, which gave him a blank check to make a few movies. 199 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:27,840 He made the Miles Teller Jonah Hill movie. 200 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:29,040 War dogs. I don't know if you remember 201 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:31,440 that Bradley Cooper. Has a cameo in that or 202 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,920 supporting role in that as well. And then he ended up being a, 203 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:37,920 you know, that movie ended up being this kind of mostly 204 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,520 unsuccessful comedy and kind of a wake. 205 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:43,080 Up call for his. Career in 2016 so the 206 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:45,760 inspiration to make Joker really happens around that time and 207 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:47,200 this. Is a pretty wild story if. 208 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:49,640 If listeners don't know. Basically the way. 209 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:53,120 Phillips puts it is in 2016, he has enough money to call it 210 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:54,720 quits. He's very rich. 211 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,200 Comedy is evolving, and he was standing outside opening night 212 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:01,040 of War Dogs knowing the movie, the movie was probably going to 213 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:03,800 lose money, smoking a cigarette, thinking about the end of his 214 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:06,120 comedy career. And he's been on record saying 215 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:08,680 that he was. Frustrated because he thought. 216 00:11:08,680 --> 00:11:11,000 Comedy was dying because people were too sensitive. 217 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:17,120 Which disagree. My thing, the comedy directors 218 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:18,120 out there. Is try a bit. 219 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:20,960 Harder, you know, I've saw it, last year's theater camp, and 220 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:23,040 that was one of the funniest movies I've seen in years. 221 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:25,120 And it was incredibly inoffensive. 222 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:27,840 And what it was being offensive about, it was being very knowing 223 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:29,720 about. And I thought that was clever of 224 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,920 that film or a movie that I think was dealing in like, 225 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,480 almost taboo subject matter. The Jennifer Lawrence comedy 226 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,360 last year. No hard feelings like comedy 227 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:40,720 still. Exists with a Really. 228 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:42,920 Smart writer. So I hate when directors are out 229 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:45,760 here saying stuff like that. It feels very much in that Joe 230 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:48,680 Rogan. Chapelle verse of We can't say. 231 00:11:48,680 --> 00:11:50,840 The truth anymore? Instead you just want to be a 232 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:53,080 contrarian and kind of an asshole and make money because 233 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,720 you're an asshole. So you know, he was kind of self 234 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:59,560 reflecting on how he can't make money off being hateful as much. 235 00:11:59,560 --> 00:12:02,360 That was the energy. We can't make like sexist, 236 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:06,200 racist jokes anymore kind of idea of death of comedy, which 237 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:09,800 is like there was this is also, this has been said to a lot of 238 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:14,080 like people too in interviews. Like Jordan Peele was famously 239 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:16,880 asked like, oh, you know, are comedies dead? 240 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,600 And Jordan Peele was like, no, I like, have you seen Pen 15? 241 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:23,320 Which is why he's one of my favorite directors, because 242 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:25,560 shout out to the pen 15 watchers out. 243 00:12:25,560 --> 00:12:26,480 There. And that's a good point too. 244 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:30,000 A lot of great comedy has moved to television, much like how You 245 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:32,920 know we were on a Tony Scott episode recently on. 246 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:36,040 The Awards Watch podcast. And we were talking about how, 247 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:38,200 you know, Tony Scott films today just aren't being made. 248 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:39,680 But also maybe. They are. 249 00:12:39,680 --> 00:12:40,720 They're just. A lot of action. 250 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:43,080 Shows with high budgets. In, you know, Netflix. 251 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:45,640 Or Apple Plus TV. Series that nobody's watching or 252 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:47,520 Amazon Prime. That are about like. 253 00:12:47,560 --> 00:12:50,040 International espionage or geopolitical? 254 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:51,880 Those are like series. Right. 255 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:54,400 Yeah, so maybe it just has moved over to streaming and I think 256 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,080 we're seeing a return to comedy. So anyways, the. 257 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:00,720 Idea go or the The story goes that Phillips was. 258 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,480 Becoming concerned with his capital in the comedy space. 259 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:06,040 He's smoking outside his War Dogs premiere, which is just a 260 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:09,000 funny image to me. He's looking up at a billboard 261 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:12,360 and he's looking up at this massive advertisement for a new 262 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:15,880 superhero film, and he just started getting really annoyed. 263 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:17,600 About the cinematic. The state of movies. 264 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,640 It does sound cinematic, yeah. And it reminded me a lot of 265 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,160 Birdman actually, which is a movie we just watched recently, 266 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:26,560 which is not a movie I love, though I think interestingly, I. 267 00:13:26,560 --> 00:13:28,240 Think Todd Phillips would probably support? 268 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,640 What it's trying to do, and it's satire of superhero films and so 269 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:33,120 Phillips. Talked about how. 270 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:35,760 He and. Other directors were quietly. 271 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:39,880 Very angry at this comic book industrial complex thinking that 272 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:44,240 it's sanitized mainstream films, it's creating empty formulas in 273 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:48,680 the MCU and DCU and even in finalizing adults in some cases 274 00:13:48,680 --> 00:13:50,000 and so. He thought well. 275 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:51,560 I want to make a comic book movie. 276 00:13:51,560 --> 00:13:53,680 Let me use my capital that I have right now. 277 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:57,720 Let me use this kind of niche storytelling that is really 278 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:00,520 popular in this moment that feels like we're in this 80s era 279 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,560 of action fantasy films, but through superheroes and capes. 280 00:14:03,560 --> 00:14:05,720 Yeah. And let me use adult themes. 281 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:07,680 Let me try to use my favorite movies. 282 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:10,320 Let me combine my, you know, sensibilities with the 283 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:13,360 aesthetics of my favorite films. Taxi driver. 284 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:17,240 King of comedy, Dog Day afternoon network, these famous 285 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:19,560 70s. Early 80s feel. 286 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:23,160 Bad Scorsese Lumet movies and let me. 287 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:25,200 Cross all that with the superhero. 288 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:27,960 Genre, really. Any thought? 289 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,320 Well, if I'm going to do that, let me do that through a villain 290 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:32,120 origin story. So he called up. 291 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:34,600 Warner Brothers that night. His connects there. 292 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:38,920 Pitched them on the story or pitch them on a villain origin 293 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:42,240 story and he got $50 million from a few production companies 294 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:44,200 within a few weeks. Warner said they would. 295 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:46,680 Distribute it they backed. Another $100 million in 296 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:48,440 marketing and he got the green light. 297 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:50,640 To reshape it. Pretty wild origin. 298 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:54,080 Yeah, I just like pictured as you're explaining this, he's on 299 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,320 the way home in his car, you know, and he has like Warner 300 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:59,200 Brothers on the car phone, yes. Exactly, Yeah. 301 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:01,640 On the highway. Like a Michael Douglas like 302 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:03,600 game, the game situation or something. 303 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:06,360 Absolutely. But yeah, it's a pretty. 304 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,360 Cool. Also, again, kind of red buttony 305 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:14,840 contrarian origin story unironically to make this sort 306 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:18,720 of contrarian sort of heartfelt Joker film as this cautionary 307 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:24,920 tale in a comic book genre mold. So fascinating background on the 308 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:27,160 movie, but I think. Before we get too. 309 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:29,440 Deep into the joker of it. All we should probably just 310 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:31,720 start today's episode. Because we do have a. 311 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:34,080 Lot to get to. I'd also like to talk about. 312 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:37,160 Joaquin Phoenix's career, maybe. Yeah, some light ranking 313 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:39,120 conversation to see where this performance. 314 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:42,200 Stacks up because. I don't know if Joker is in my. 315 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:44,080 Top 3 or 4. Phoenix performances. 316 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:49,080 He's had such an eclectic, weird, strange career, but so 317 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:50,560 many highs. I don't think he's ever made a 318 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:52,360 bad movie. Or sorry, I don't think he's 319 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:53,640 ever. Had a bad performance, yeah, 320 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:57,040 though has made bad movies, yes. So that would be an interesting 321 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:58,680 conversation. Definitely, yeah. 322 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:02,120 Because I don't know either, although this is certainly like 323 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,320 an iconic Joaquin Phoenix, you know, performance. 324 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:07,400 Is one of the most. Transformation, right? 325 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:09,800 But yeah, OK, we'll definitely have that conversation. 326 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:13,080 OK, so today's episode is. Exclusively on Patreon, as 327 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:15,960 always our Patreon episodes. Are deep dives, but they're also 328 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:16,880 live. Commentary. 329 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:19,040 So we will be. Discussing Joker while watching 330 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:20,280 it. If you're on the main feed, 331 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:22,680 you're listening to a sample of this episode, so if you want the 332 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:24,640 full discussion, you can go into this episode. 333 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,560 Show notes You'll find our Patreon, the Extra Credits Plus, 334 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:31,520 or you can subscribe to Living Plus for only $5 and you'll gain 335 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:33,240 access. To our full episode today, as 336 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:37,920 well as well as the rest of our catalog of close to 40 episodes. 337 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:42,760 And if you can't subscribe as a paying member or as a free 338 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:44,640 member, please share the show with a friend. 339 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:46,680 Remove us five stars if you'd like to. 340 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:48,960 That would be a big. Help to our show. 341 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:51,200 And you can also leave a review on Apple. 342 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:53,600 If you're a really. Kind listener. 343 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:55,640 Yeah, it really helps us get found. 344 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:59,560 So we appreciate any kind of, you know, review and also 345 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:03,520 written review. In true living plus fashion, we 346 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:07,720 are watching Joker on Max today as our like live watch and we 347 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:13,119 have Kendall Roy as the little icon of our profile, but it's 348 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:16,040 he's just in the top right hand corner of our screen. 349 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:18,920 He looks amazing and just looking down on Joker, who's 350 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:21,359 like on the stairs right now. It's an amazing image. 351 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:22,720 Do you think Joker is in Kendall? 352 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,200 Roy's top five. On or top four on letterbox? 353 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:27,720 It's it's probably a. Probably it's. 354 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:28,560 Probably he. Probably. 355 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:31,480 Loves this movie. We definitely whenever we end up 356 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:36,280 doing the succession, you know, deep dive when we return to it 357 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:40,200 years later, but we have to talk about like Kendall Roy's, you 358 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:44,440 know, letterbox top four his we'll have a lot of. 359 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:46,160 Be very like. Fuck the. 360 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:48,160 Patriarchy. It might be in his bio. 361 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:49,440 Yeah. I can't wait to discuss that. 362 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:51,160 All right, For anybody who wants to. 363 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:53,280 Watch this Like Elsie. Said it's on Max or you can buy 364 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:55,120 the. 4K like we did. All right, on play. 365 00:17:55,120 --> 00:18:02,360 We'll start the movie. 321 play. So I I think we should start 366 00:18:02,360 --> 00:18:04,160 today's. Conversation with more back 367 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:08,360 story on this project and contextualize the making of it 368 00:18:08,360 --> 00:18:11,560 and intentions and motivations versus the final product in the 369 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:14,560 conversation around what maybe the motivations were and. 370 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:16,680 Also, I'd love to. Discuss our relationship. 371 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,240 To the Joker figure. And how this is such a Seminole 372 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:22,840 figure for our generation, specifically with the Ledger's 373 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:27,400 performance in the Nolan movies and then for me as a as a Batman 374 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:29,640 nerd. I really love this character. 375 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:31,160 Yeah. And as far as the representation 376 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:33,160 in this universe may be different now that. 377 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:35,080 I have a relationship. To this iteration. 378 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:38,200 Of the character. Well, I think Joker even, you 379 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,920 know, I mean, I watched Batman films growing up, but I wouldn't 380 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:43,760 like religiously watch them. But I still always thought that 381 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:47,400 Joker was the most interesting character so one. 382 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:50,440 Of the most compelling for sure. OK, so Joker. 383 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,680 During pre production in August of 2017, about a year after 384 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:56,440 getting financing, Phillips sought out some big names 385 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:58,200 outside Joaquin Phoenix to join his. 386 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:00,600 Which was already a. Huge name to get playing Joker 387 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:03,360 in the 1st place. This is an actor who you would 388 00:19:03,360 --> 00:19:07,240 assume hate superhero films. He almost, you know, was rumored 389 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:08,240 to be. Cast as Doctor. 390 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:09,800 Strange before Benedict Cumberbatch. 391 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:11,520 Was. But apparently just like could 392 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:15,480 not see himself in that role. And so him and Leo, who've 393 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:17,960 always been competitors, who? Who talk about? 394 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:19,880 Loving each other. Deeply and who love each other's 395 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:22,720 work really tried to. Stay away from superhero movies, 396 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:24,920 but it makes sense to me that Phoenix got this call from 397 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,320 Phillips took months to. To work it out. 398 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:29,760 And was like, as long long as we make it a character study, as 399 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:33,480 long as it's an attack and satire on the genre, I'm down. 400 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:36,800 So outside of Phoenix joining the. 401 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:41,280 Crew we get. Martin Scorsese in the headlines 402 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:43,120 about potentially coming on as a producer. 403 00:19:43,120 --> 00:19:44,560 Right, which is a really. Big deal. 404 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,680 So then you have Phillips going out to get Robert De Niro. 405 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:49,920 To play the pivotal role of the talk show. 406 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:53,240 Host Murray Franklin, who is essentially the standing 407 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:55,200 character for exploitative media. 408 00:19:55,360 --> 00:19:58,680 Which starts up a. Theme that Phillips will more 409 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:00,640 fully develop in the second Joker film. 410 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:05,000 And apparently, the rumor goes. That Phillips got Scorsese. 411 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:09,840 On as a producer, but then Marty toward, you know, I guess, I 412 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,000 guess during production ended up stepping back due to other 413 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,280 commitments with the Irishman that same year for Netflix, 414 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:18,200 which is a great movie hopefully. 415 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:20,800 We can talk about that. On the podcast one day. 416 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,560 But what's really interesting about him stepping out is this 417 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:28,560 is also the same year, I believe, that he came out and 418 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:31,640 said for Empire magazine, I think, that Marvel movies 419 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,040 weren't cinema and that they were theme parks. 420 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:36,720 And like roller coaster rides. And that was a. 421 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:41,400 Yeah, that was a really big deal, that was. 422 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,000 The first time, I think. Water cooler talk. 423 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:46,760 For movie fans, you know at work or with friends at bars. 424 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:50,560 Whatever really got provoked to be like, oh, is this high art or 425 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:52,520 are we? Watching kids stuff and are we 426 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:54,720 being infantilized by this industry in some ways? 427 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:57,080 And that was a really divisive online moment too. 428 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:00,040 I I remember that distinctly because that is when End Game 429 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:01,760 came out too. Which is a huge. 430 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:06,320 Deal for marvel fans like us but ultimately looking back at that 431 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:07,920 moment and obviously now I I think. 432 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:09,280 A lot of people who are critical of. 433 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:13,160 Scorsese for saying those things were being unreasonable and the 434 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:17,200 headlines at the time also perpetuating that Scorsese hated 435 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,840 comic book movies was a really uncharitable read and I'd I'd. 436 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,920 Go as far as to say. That some comic book movie fans, 437 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,240 if not a. Lot of us, probably. 438 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:30,560 Share Scorsese's opinions about this topic right now in 2024 and 439 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:32,400 watching what's happening to Marvel and watching what's 440 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:34,760 happening to DCU, which is to say that. 441 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,080 We're all collectively irritated at this. 442 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,520 Kind of like supply chain of the same kinds of movies where 443 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,160 you're looking at these money making machines who have. 444 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,480 Forced theaters to. Exhibit movies that all look, 445 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,840 feel and sound pretty similar and are kind of thematically 446 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:54,040 unserious most of the time, which is a really dangerous 447 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:58,080 commercial formula that I think Scorsese as one of the kind of. 448 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:00,960 Preservers of this art. Form in the meaning behind it 449 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,520 and the kind of balance of making art in this commercial 450 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:08,440 industry somebody. Who was like deeply skeptical of 451 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:09,960 of superhero? Films at the time. 452 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:14,760 Yeah, I mean, because we're, I mean, we enjoy comic book and 453 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:22,200 superhero films, but definitely I think the the formulaic design 454 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,760 is really felt now, especially now that we're past end game. 455 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:27,400 It felt like we were moving towards something. 456 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:31,880 And then, you know, obviously we feel the lack of stakes like as 457 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,840 as an audience for these type of movies. 458 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,240 And I've I've always personally felt that about like DC movies. 459 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,800 They've never really like clicked for me, but but it's 460 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,440 definitely like a conversation that is very similar to what 461 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:47,680 Martin Scorsese was saying. It's just that, you know, I 462 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:51,960 think that the, the what is it called like phase. 4. 463 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:54,520 Is that through end game? Yes, I believe so. 464 00:22:55,120 --> 00:22:56,760 That that was a good time. Yeah. 465 00:22:57,120 --> 00:22:58,840 That was like, almost. Objectively. 466 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:00,560 A good time. Like like we had. 467 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,320 Original movies too in that genre like Guardians of the 468 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:05,080 Galaxy was breaking expectations. 469 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,240 Black Panther was incredible, like an Oscar nominated movie, 470 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:09,920 which is a huge deal in the genre. 471 00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:13,480 Infinity War and End game. Were truly like you had to. 472 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:17,440 Be there moments in IMAX theaters with people who were 473 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,000 just so pumped to be collectively invested in this 474 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,400 art form, in these. Stories that felt like. 475 00:23:23,360 --> 00:23:27,160 These massive modern myths. Allegories that we all. 476 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:29,440 Kind of like we're interested to see what would be next. 477 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,480 But yeah, it does feel like. Since post end game. 478 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:34,280 All stakes are pretty. Absent. 479 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:35,680 Yeah, which? Is true to comic books. 480 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:37,640 So I know real comic book heads like don't give a shit. 481 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:39,240 They just want to be a part of the different worlds and 482 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:40,640 different iterations of these characters. 483 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,400 But some of us who aren't comic book fans are more fans of the 484 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,440 maybe comic book universe. Cinematically, what makes movies 485 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:48,200 so profound is that. They do have. 486 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,640 Stakes. They are over in two hours and 487 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,040 when it feels like they're not and they're going to be going on 488 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:54,640 forever and no one's. Really dead. 489 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,800 That does leave a little bit of. Like cynicism, you know, 490 00:23:57,800 --> 00:23:59,280 especially in this commercial art form. 491 00:23:59,360 --> 00:24:02,600 And also, I think I got like, fatigued by needing to keep up 492 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,440 with every thing, especially in the Marvel Universe TV shows. 493 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:07,280 Yeah, like I need to know everything about. 494 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,560 We did. We tried with the Disney TV 495 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,040 shows but just just could not do it. 496 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,440 We'll get back in. I, I think after the Doctor Doom 497 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,680 announcement, even though that was its own cynical thing that 498 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,000 happened with Downey Junior. We're not going to get into that 499 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:22,040 right now, especially now that we're still not on a paywall 500 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:23,240 yet. Maybe post the? 501 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:24,600 30 minutes, we could talk about it. 502 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,720 But hopefully Joker. Does inspire some more kind of 503 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:31,840 like, you know, convention breaking ideas in this genre. 504 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,200 So anyways, the whole point I was trying to get out there was 505 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,520 that Scorsese was on the whole taxi driver king of comedy thing 506 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,360 was coming alive because of him being on there and also getting 507 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:44,880 why am I thinking of Robert Downey Junior but De Niro 508 00:24:45,360 --> 00:24:48,640 different Robert both great and then. 509 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:52,000 Scorsese left the project, so the. 510 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,560 Film opens. Joker opens with the 70s. 511 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:59,320 Warner Brothers logo, we hear the local radio host. 512 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,400 Saying it's October 15th spooky season. 513 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,040 We're almost there ourselves. This this shot. 514 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,040 Is zooming in closer. To the Arthur character. 515 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,000 We're hearing about this. Garbage strike over the radio. 516 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,320 There is a citywide. State emergency there is 517 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:16,960 garbage. And rats everywhere, apparently. 518 00:25:17,120 --> 00:25:18,560 Super rats. Thank you. 519 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:24,160 And yeah, this is a very Moody, aesthetically dreary 520 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:25,760 atmospherically. Bleak. 521 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,880 Beginning to to a comic book movie that I don't think we've 522 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:34,560 ever seen before in this genre. So even though I did say that 523 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,520 this movie is like depressing to keep rewatching, I find the 524 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,400 beginning of this movie every time I restart the film to be 525 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:44,160 kind of like exciting in a weird way because there is nothing 526 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,080 else. Like this, you know. 527 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,480 Yeah. And I remember when we were 528 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:52,320 first, you know, seated in the theater and we're watching a 529 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,800 Joker movie that I, we knew would be kind of like a darker 530 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,560 portrayal of or a character study, you know, possibly. 531 00:25:59,920 --> 00:26:03,320 But it did really that the tone of the movie felt so different 532 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:07,480 from anything we've ever seen, this kind of push in on Arthur 533 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:11,560 Flack or the Joker character. And we kind of go from the 534 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:16,080 handheld of just his, like his face and him putting on this 535 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:18,440 makeup to the mirror reflection. Yeah. 536 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:20,080 The reaction shot to the mirror shot. 537 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:25,480 Yeah, is really kind of like, haunting, but also really 538 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:29,760 intimate to write you like you have a different tone than than 539 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:33,320 you have before going into this, you know, super villain quote, 540 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:38,160 UN quote, like movie. And to watch him put a smile on 541 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:42,840 his face and have his makeup run because he's crying is just a 542 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:46,840 different portrayal than what we're used to in the comic book 543 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:48,880 genre. It's really a tragic. 544 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:53,880 Opening to then playing this clown like comic like music as 545 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,320 we go out into seeing Gotham that is. 546 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:58,240 Really. Well, digitally rendered. 547 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,520 They're doing a lot on practical sets and some on sound. 548 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,120 Stages, but the production. Design in this movie I think is 549 00:27:03,120 --> 00:27:05,400 pretty incredible. We said it on Joker 2. 550 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:07,120 But I would say. Production design in both films 551 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,160 is Immaculate like I mean. It's just great. 552 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,200 Vibes in terms of like the cinema of it all, maybe not 553 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,200 great vibes in terms of the emotions because it is a lot to 554 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:20,080 take on multiple watches and you do kind of feel hollowed out by 555 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,040 the end of the first Joker film especially. 556 00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:25,760 But yeah, we go from that shot of him forcing himself into a 557 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,360 smile crying to then him dancing. 558 00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:32,560 Outside a store with. A sign that says everything must 559 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,400 go. Yeah, And I would say that the 560 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:39,480 the production in this like Gotham or New York City is a 561 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:44,120 really good balance of this high fiction world. 562 00:27:44,120 --> 00:27:49,240 Like the news feels like we are in this maybe what you'd see in 563 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:53,000 a in a Batman movie of like now, like coming to you live with 564 00:27:53,120 --> 00:27:56,720 this, like new news about what what's happening in the in the 565 00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:00,160 Joker, in Batman's world, but also making it feel like a 566 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,880 little bit more grounded, like a taxi driver when we're on the 567 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:07,160 street with Joaquin Phoenix, having this like sign of 568 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:11,800 everything must go. And also establishing that there 569 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:16,760 is such a situation that will be like set up for this really huge 570 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,960 disparity in wealth inequality that we'll go into with like the 571 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:25,280 the Thomas Wayne figure. But I I just really enjoyed how 572 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:29,960 they kind of like put us there visually and I didn't really 573 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,440 appreciate it until we saw the second movie. 574 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:35,480 As well. You know what made me appreciate 575 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:36,000 it? I. 576 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,400 Re watched parts of. Matt Reeves's The Batman, which 577 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,000 I think is one of the best movies of the twenty 20s in that 578 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,360 certainly pulls a lot from its own favorite films, like 7 for 579 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,680 example. But you don't. 580 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,440 Have that the. Batman grounded nightmarish 581 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:52,880 aesthetic. Without. 582 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:54,560 What Joker's production design team did. 583 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:58,320 Here, they really did. Ground this elevated genre some 584 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:00,400 somewhere. Special you also probably. 585 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,840 Don't have Joker without something like Logan, which is 586 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:08,200 its own kind of X-Men version of this hyper gritty. 587 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:12,720 Extra stylized world that still feels a little bit like it's a a 588 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:14,520 reality from your. Own different. 589 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:16,400 From your own futuristic, but grounded. 590 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:18,800 Yeah, it's like a futuristic desert. 591 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,320 Right, so. Is holding his sign. 592 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,800 A bunch of kids jump him. He gets hit with the sign. 593 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,160 The Joker title card pops across the screen. 594 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:29,920 You hear the Oscar nominated composer going. 595 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:37,560 Crazy with the Arthur. Hi. 596 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:39,480 Hello there. Sorry for interrupting. 597 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,520 Yeah, thank you for listening so far and hopefully you are 598 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,000 enjoying Yeah, the episode so far. 599 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,000 I feel like maybe if you made it this far. 600 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:49,600 They got it this far, you're. Having a good time? 601 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,840 I mean, let's hope. But to access our full 602 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:56,880 conversation, you can go to the description of this episode to 603 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,280 join our Patreon community, the Extra Credits Plus. 604 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,560 Yes, and for only $5.00 a month you can get. 605 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:04,480 Access to our full. Catalogue of Patreon on 606 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:06,560 exclusive episodes. Hope to see you there.