The Hello Welcome to the extra credits of Stranger Things.
I'm Trey. And I'm Kelsey.
Today we are reacting to the finale of Stranger Things season
5 and also saying goodbye to one of the greatest TV shows in
recent memory. I know, it's so sad.
Bittersweet, kind of sad day. This show has meant a lot to us
in the past 10 years. I think to a lot of people,
yeah, it's really, really great. Didn't end super great.
No, yeah, yeah. Not the strongest ending, but
that's OK. I think this will be a mostly
positive podcast because we'll be talking about season 5, you
know, our our review, but we'll also be talking about the other
seasons and like why? It's just such a a special show.
But first, happy New Year 2025 is over. 2026 is here.
We're grateful for all of our long time listeners and new
listeners. Your support just as a listener
or subscriber or some of you as a patron has meant the world to
us. We're very lucky that we were
able to have this show as a hobby, then turned into a second
job in the past few years. And 2025 in particular was a big
growth year for us and listeners and download.
So I imagine 2026 will be an even bigger year, which is very
exciting. Now we usually don't plug our
own show even though we are told to buy our listeners pretty
often. But I do want to do that now
because it's the start of a new year.
And if you've been listening to this show, we're so.
Bad at like self advertising? Yes, we're horrible at it.
If you listen to this show and you enjoy what we do here and
you know, you can't support on Patreon because money is tight
and all the work we do over there, you you probably still
want to support us somehow. The best way to do that is Apple
reviews or a Spotify rating. So if you have Spotify, just
rate US five stars. Maybe leave a comment on this
episode, tell us what you like about the show, what you love
about Stranger Things or just what we do on this podcast.
And then on Apple, leaving us a review of five stars, letting us
know, you know, what kind of episodes you enjoyed listening
to in 2025 or what you like about, you know, Kelsey 9, the
style of what we do here on the show.
Yeah, it really goes a long way. And I would say that like most
of our listeners are on Spotify, so that, you know, kind of
reflects in the reviews. But with Apple, if you have an
iPhone and you mostly listen on Spotify or another platform, but
you have the Apple Podcast app, what is it called?
Apple Podcast, if you have that app and even if you don't listen
to us on that app, it would really mean the world for us to
have you just leave a review. It's kind of annoying where I've
had to do this for podcasts that I love and like leave a review
for. You have to like hit play on one
of the episodes on that app and then it will allow you to leave
the review. But it doesn't take that long,
you know, and it is so appreciative, especially, you
know, when we get like weird one star reviews of people who like
clearly don't listen to the show.
And it's just like people who often leave reviews, right?
Like that's kind of the that's, I mean, that's just with
anything with reviews like. Most of the reviews are super
kind five star reviews, and then there's like every four or five
reviews, there's a one star that doesn't really make a lot of
coherent sense, but what they're criticizing.
But that's also just Apple. Reviews.
That's just like, yeah, that's the.
Nature. Of reviews in general, but it
would mean the world to us if you could like, go over there,
write a review. It doesn't have to be like
amazing, just whatever you like about the show, an episode you
like, like Trey said to take a minute out of your day to do
that. Even if you don't listen on
Apple, it would be awesome. So Stranger Things.
Stranger Things. This show has been on for nearly
a decade and we've reached the end of our time in Hawkins.
And for us, you know, this is AI want to try not to be overly
sentimental because this is like a billion dollar Netflix project
or multi billion dollar Netflix project that is kind of helping
end the theater experience in many ways.
And Netflix is too, and that's a whole other conversation.
But to this show is a monocultural American artifact,
right? It is a very fascinating piece
of pop culture in the last 10 years.
It is the end of a journey that basically carried us from 20
years old to now 30 years old, which is crazy to think about.
And. What's even more wild is that
Stranger Things isn't necessary. Like necessarily for one
generation, because I'm sure there were 80s babies who
started watching Stranger Things back in 2016 for it's like.
Yeah, I mean. It's exactly.
Yeah, like there's so many 80s callbacks and, you know, as we
get deeper into the seasons and maybe, you know, people are
like, grown with the show, we also have like 80s, like horror,
you know, slasher callbacks in season 4 especially, which I'm
excited to talk about today. But yeah, like, it's just such a
nostalgic show for so many different generations.
And it has, you know, the the core group of like friendship
and the the coming of age journey that really is like
something that a lot of people can come back to.
Yes. And it does do for the most
part, like there are some flaws and, you know, each season,
although I think Season 1 is pretty like tight.
I think it's peak television. Yes, yeah.
But like for the most part, we have a lot of different themes
that different other franchises that have a coming of age like
Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, right, that mean that are really
special to other generations in in this show.
Yeah, what what I was going to say though, about the age thing,
which is strange. It's like you could have started
this show at 40, been from that 80s generation growing up and
seeing yourself like on the bikes playing DND or whatever,
and now be 50 something close to retiring.
So the show's been on for a long time.
That's true. And that's not including the
target audience who related to 11 in the core 4 boys plus Max,
who are probably like 12 years old when the show started, who
are now the age of Steve, you know, or like older than Steve,
like 2122 years old, which I, you know, that's, that must also
be a very cool and strange experience because I think we
can definitely relate to. That Oh yeah, I mean, Harry
Potter was exactly that for us, right?
The books came out, we were the basically like same age, you
know, as the actors. Grew up.
With them. And then the first movie came
out like when we were in elementary school.
Yeah, it is interesting. With Stranger Things I only
connected to Kind. Of grew up like as they hit
different stages and milestones in the movies.
Right. So we like very specifically
were like Daniel Radcliffe, you know, Emma Watson, Rupert Grant.
We grew up with those kids turned adults.
But for me in this show, what was strange was watching Joe
Curie turn into like the celebrity that he is now and
kind of like pop cultural. I don't want to say icon, it's
too strong of a word, but he's turning into somebody that's
like in multiple mediums and very good at what he does.
And he was our age when the show came out and now he's our age
now, which is very strange. And so he's been somebody that I
think we've connected to the most in the show as well,
because Steve is maybe the most interesting and dynamic
character on. Yeah, probably I.
Guess. We agree that, like Steve is the
best part of Stranger. Things he.
Brings like so much charisma to the to the screen.
I I do think like having the the group of kids, like obviously
that is the biggest strength, but it, it is interesting, like
stranger things, I think is so genius and that the Duffer
brothers created the coming of age group, like the Goonies
group, right, or whatever, you know, kind of story, you want to
like map on to it. But then we also have the like
Nancy, Jonathan, Steve, Robin crew and Eddie.
And then we have also like Joyce and Hopper.
So a bunch of different kind of generations can relate to either
like the motherhood experience that Winona Ryder is going
through the Steve Harrington like babysitter right that he's
playing, or just like your nostalgia towards the.
Corporate journey. Yeah, yeah.
Like there's just so many different age groups.
Absolutely. Now there are Stranger Things
haters. And so I do want to, you know,
I, I think I want to make this people feel seen too, who are
listening. Are they listening to this?
I think it's likely. I think haters also watch the
content that they hate on because again, this is a Netflix
project that has again basically helped ruin movies.
Netflix is probably soon to buy Warner Brothers, which.
We just talked about on Knives Out on a patron episode of the
Kind of Like Strange. Yeah, the Ryan Johnson
experience. And in a way, this is an end to
a Netflix era. So if you're going to be happy
about something is that Stranger Things is ending and so is
Knives Out, which are two of the biggest properties that Netflix
owns that they no longer have too much control over.
Because even though Netflix can go in a couple different
directions with spin offs of Stranger Things, I don't think
they can really do anything. That's going to be monumental.
Oh yeah, I mean, they're going. To do an animated series.
I think this spin off, like I understand in terms of like
Montauk maybe, but it just does not like I, I can't imagine it
being great, like, or maybe not great, but like something that
people are going to continue to watch.
Like I'm sure it will fizzle out pretty quickly.
I mean, maybe they do. Yeah, like a, a Montauk, like
you said, kind of sequel situation, make it like a Jaws
situation. You know, there's are so many
other things to call back to and make it their own because
obviously the Duffer brothers are like very imaginative.
But I can't, yeah. I can't imagine it having like
the cultural swell that Stranger Things has had.
The only move to me that seems obvious is to go into the 90s
and make it a 90s TV show with a new cast.
Like that would be interesting. But again, to like identify some
of the problems that Stranger Things has as a show at the top
here because you know, we do love this show but it has
issues. Like at its worst, it is like
this sci-fi mess of like retconning and like exposition
being deeply derivative and not just inspired by like famous
stories, but kind of like ripping Goonies or ET or Freddy
Krueger or Star Wars. That's all true.
But what can also be true is that there is actually like
beautiful storytelling told throughout this kind of
incredible group of coming of age stories.
And we rewatched the entire show leading up to season 5 and I was
blown away by the highs of Season 1 through Four Seasons
one through 4 because I don't know, it was pretty emotionally
complex. I had forgotten a lot about the
core themes of the show, to be honest, because it became so
much about the Upside Down and the, the villains like Vecna or
the, the Mind Flayer and the Demogorgons.
But so much of the, I guess the kind of core of the show, the
heart of the show is about following outsiders, about nerdy
kids, bullied kids, kids who were other kids who were queer,
kids who were invisible or looked at as awkward or out of
place. And then watching all of these
wallflower kids and adults and like older teens or young adults
find each other trying to save a world that doesn't seem to want
them. ANYWAYS.
That was like extremely just really powerful in the rewatch.
Like I didn't think I it would emotionally affect me to rewatch
Stranger Things the way it did, but like season 1 in particular
I was just kind of like shocked by the A+ found family epic of
it all. Totally agree, and I'm so glad
we were going to originally just watch the recaps leading up to
the season 5 because we felt like we had kind of seen the
seasons enough. We're mostly a movie podcast.
We didn't even know if you're going to cover Stranger Things.
It didn't. Help that the season was bad.
We definitely considered what to do.
Yeah, we were crunched for time. We were like, let's just do the
recaps. I'm so glad we watched Season 1
through 4 in full because it also makes me, I think a little
bit more charitable towards Season 5 to kind of wrap this
whole thing up because it has been like such an amazing story
from Season 1 to 4 and season 1 in particular like is just,
you're right, peak television. And I think it's because we're,
yes, focused on the mystery of where Will is in the Upside
Down. We have like Winona putting
Christmas lights like the iconic alphabet on her wall and, and
all everything with that happening, her and Hopper like
joining forces and everyone meeting each other like that's
all really fun and great. Very strong iconography and
advertising. Eggo waffles are bad.
Yes, exactly. Yeah, the mystery of 11.
There's also a lot of dark things happening in Season 1
that I didn't really remember, like even just from like kills
of, you know, Barb and before that, like even just her cutting
herself like as she isn't opening something like you see
this like deep gash or the in the first episode, right?
I think the woman who's working for Brunner, like, shoots,
right? There's a lot of like a.
Friend who's watching 11? Yeah, things that are kind of
shocking and there's stakes in Season 1, so like all of that
makes it very strong, but a. Lot of mental health metaphors.
Yes, yeah. Eaver Hopper, yeah.
That's true, yeah, but at its core, but beyond the mystery and
like will stuffed body of it all, which is fun.
We have like these kids, we're. Deeply sad.
That's one of the saddest scenes and all of Stranger Things.
That's true, but his friendship right is at the core.
It's like these kids trying to find their friend.
A lot of kind of callbacks to not being able to really like
talk to the adults and really interact with institutions like
in their community. They like have to do this on
their own. They're dealing with bullies
right in the very first season to like, we'll talk about how
will is framed as a character. And I I think that like really
strengthens this like just this bond and and journey with these
friends, like going on an adventure.
And it's kind of, like you said, following these out this like
group of kids who feel like outsiders but have this like
really beautiful friendship with each other and like see each
other. Yeah, and I think it's one of
the reasons I really connected with Steve because he's sort of
the caretaker. They're they're his six Nuggets,
if you will. So when he becomes, you know,
spoiler alert for the rest of Stranger Things, the.
Whole show all seasons, including season 5, Yeah.
In the epilogue, we learned Steve it had become a teacher
and a coach, and as somebody who also became a teacher and a
coach in 2016 when the show started and identified a lot
with Steve and I was like, this guy feels like a future teacher.
I've that was amazing to see. That was one of the coolest ends
to one of the characters in Stranger Things for me.
And also I think there's a lot of weird connective tissue to
Stranger Things in my life as a teacher because it started the
show started when I became a teacher.
And so I've been able to talk about the show a lot with my
students for almost my entire teaching career.
It's actually become like a a funny shared language between
all of my classrooms. There's not a lot of through
lines of the 10 years of Gen. Z that I've taught, but one of
them is Stranger Things because there's so many different
monocultures across like the different social.
Media happening that like become really like viral at their time
growing up, that become their own thing, yeah.
I remembered this morning when prepping this episode, I was
like, Oh my God. I was literally Steve and Scoops
Ahoy one year for Halloween at school.
That's like, and the kids lost their mind because it's so out
of pocket for me to do something like that.
I don't dress up for Halloween to school.
And this was like pre pandemic. So it brought back a lot of nice
memories. I was like, oh, this is really
it's a sweet show because it was it gave us like a water cooler
thing in American culture post Trump.
That was kind of nice to have something shared or collective.
Do I wish the show was a little bit more political, you know,
bring up the Trump stuff because it kind of was in the first
season. There was a moment where they're
like, yeah, Mike's dad is this Republican who sucks.
They have like the Reagan or is it the Bush poster or whatever.
Oh, no, that was the the Wheelers, right?
Had like, yeah, yeah, had a they're obviously like, you
know, Ted. Is that his name?
That's his name. Who knows?
Unforgettable. Mike Wheeler's dad, obviously a
Republican. Yeah.
So do I wish there was more of like, I don't know, an 80s
political commentary in the show that didn't have opportunities
to do that? Yeah.
But anyways, I just, I liked having that as this kind of,
like connective tissue between generations.
It was nice. Yeah, definitely.
I totally agree. Yeah.
I think also they had like an opportunity to to do something
interesting with the kind of what is it, Hawkins Lab, right,
Which is the kind of like government, right?
Yeah. Stand in.
I guess the show is interested in government conspiracies, just
not the ones I find interesting. Yeah, exactly.
It's and it's also not deepened in a lot of ways.
Yeah. But yeah, I think Stranger
Things has been a the, the kind of like monoculture throughout
the the past 10 years. I do love that that Steve also
became a teacher because ultimately, like he is someone
who really like cares about the kids, right?
And we have obviously like Nancy cares about them, but maybe in a
different way. And and Steve is really like
focused on their growth. But you know, does he always
have like the best advice? No, no, he's.
Trying his best. Yeah, he's just trying his best.
So while I'm I am happy that that was the kind of conclusion
for Steve's character, who I absolutely love his screen
presence and joke here. He's just like really
charismatic, obviously. So he's bringing a lot to it.
But also, I mean, as teachers, you know, I think Mr. Clark is a
way better representation of a teacher.
Yeah. And.
They come to his house way too many times.
Way too many times, yeah. No phone calls?
Yeah, absolutely not. Coming to your house at 3:00 AM
or whatever was Erica Deer in two to five, Yeah.
But yeah, so like the I think Mr. Clark underrated teacher
figure absolutely love Mr. Clark, an icon, but Steve him at
the end being like, yeah, like I give kids like AS&B like it kind
of like undercuts teaching a little bit one. 100%
condescending. I just, I took the punch in the
face as I always do as a teacher and I'm like, I still like being
represented. In this way, Steve and I still
like that he is the best character, becoming a teacher.
But at the same time, it's like, you know, him being like, yeah,
I just didn't know what else to do.
And I care about people. Let me.
That's it. That was.
It OK, well, whatever. And he's buying a house a little
bit soon. But let's get money from Mr.
Clark. Gives him some mentorship.
Yeah, well, yeah, I guess he is teaching the same school, Mr.
Clark, if he's doing middle school.
OK Season 5. Season 5.
So let's do a quick, I don't know, I guess the most of this
episode will be the reaction of season 5, and then we'll talk
about our favorite seasons. Maybe we can rank our favorite
seasons. And I think we'll probably end
up talking about Season 1 through 4 through the reaction
of Season 5 because it, it'll be like, you know, did we like how
this character ended up? Do we feel like they kind of
went in a different direction that we weren't expecting or
that we liked like whatever. So I, I think we'll, we'll do it
like that. It's sad that we've had to, as
we had the show for a while, right?
But we've only had to end two TV shows, Succession and Stranger
Things. The ending of Succession made me
feel very spoiled, like the ending of Succession was really
powerful. I think that succession made
like made me truly feel like I lost something, right.
I and I wonder if stranger things.
I felt like sad that something wasn't.
Yeah, I feel like. But it wasn't a great ending for
Season 5. That's what I mean, a little
hollow. Yeah, So it was like, I'm sad
that this thing won't be in my life and I won't get to keep
seeing the adventures of like the Hawkins crew, the party.
But it I wonder if like, you know, shows or things that we
watched growing up, like Harry Potter or like, you know, shows
I watched like Gilmark Girls when it was airing, right,
Friday Night Live. And yeah, like, I remember those
things ending. And I wonder if like for the
next generation? Or anyone who's like really
keyed in if they felt that when Stranger Things ended or did
season 5, like you said, kind of like have not not leaving a bad
taste in their mouth, but like I'm sad this is ending, but that
wasn't super satisfying versus like succession, I mean.
Well, it's, it's, I will say this as a teacher, it's tough
for the kids out there. The shows that they're choosing
from right now, like the summer I turned pretty in, like Outer
Banks. It's it's rough.
It is tough, which is why like, they're going back to our TV
shows. Great.
Yeah, when I'm sympathetic to this.
Like we talked about this on The Hunger Games and Twilight
Patreon episodes last month. OK, so gut reaction.
Season 5, we finished the two hour finale going into the new
year last night and I walked away from season 5 feeling very
disappointed. So I guess more of the negative
reaction is coming right now. I did cry a lot in the last 20
minutes of this episode, the final episode.
And that's just because the show emotionally plays you.
It's a manipulation of your nostalgia.
And also you're like going off of the the strength of season.
One through 4. But that's what I mean, you're
just saying in a nicer way they're they're fucking with us
a little bit. The writing was really bad this
season and they're like, we're going to put some scenes that
are going to make you cry from the first Four Seasons here.
That's true. They did a bunch of flashbacks.
A ton. And so yeah, I think Season 5 is
clearly the weakest season. I don't think it's unwatchable
television. So it's not like the worst
season of TV I've seen. It's not like that one episode
from Season 2 with when 8 is introduced, Cali, Cali when
Cali's introduced. But I thought this season was
just really unfocused. It felt like the show I was
trying to explain itself instead of ending itself and its arcs
and its storylines. And after re watching all five
seasons, I think what really stood out about what was wrong
with the fifth season is how much it de prioritized coming of
age arcs in favor of war management.
Like trying to the tunnel or the bridge or whatever.
Yeah, whatever that was, we can get to it.
Which led to so many plot holes and then uninteresting ends to
character journeys because they spent so much time expanding on
the Upside Down in the wormhole in Vecnas layer in the Mind
Flayer. It made me feel empty in a lot
of bad ways. That toward the end of the show
when Mike is kind of writing the story of the party at the end
with his glasses on, looking like Stephen King and kind of
creating the mythic L who's living in another country
somewhere. Even though we probably know
that she is dead. And he sort of made-up this
fantasy in his head to to cope. Debatable.
We can talk about. Which we can debate, certainly,
and I'm sure people are online. I have no idea.
I'm not plugged in so I don't really know what people are
saying online about the show outside of some things about
Millie Bobby Brown, which we can touch on.
But I did feel like the show ending last night.
I was in tears. But then also I was like, I want
to redo. Can we have a redo?
Does that make sense to? Give the Dumber brothers more
time to really like sit with this and let's just have a new
season 5. I agree.
I wanted to like Respawn. Like I was like, I'm so sad that
this is the end of this game that we've been watching.
So those, those are my, that's my gut reaction, I think.
Where you at? My gut reaction is like Season
5I cringed a lot. I think there was just a lot of
forced things in the opening of the season and then also just
kind of emotional things that they had to tie up, especially
with Will's character, which we will talk about.
And and then, you know, other things happening with like
Holly's character. There's a lot of enforced
emotional aspects of like Max and her, although I ended up
like warming up to that storyline, but just a lot of
things that I was like actively cringing at, which is not
usually an experience that I have.
Yeah, a lot of force. Stranger Things force character
dynamics. Yeah, 11 training montages.
Yes, I've well, I've had like boring moments, right, Like I
think the Hopper jail, you know, Russian prison storyline should
have just been like totally cut out like we only go back a few
times instead, yes, instead, and and I think that, you know,
there are points that I've been bored, but I've never like
actively cringed at something and this season was full of
that. It was really tough to get
through in a lot of. Moments cheesy 80s humor, but
also just bad jokes. Well, first we start out with
them like just continuously planning their runs, like it was
too much focus on the planning of the runs.
And then we had like the source of human being Dick jokes from
Robin. Just not funny at all.
Confusing. Strange to like make her only
queer character just like her personality now is to make a
Dick jokes to like Steve and the and the all these children.
Like it just looks so weird. Derek innocent though.
Derek OK, that is like the only time maybe in a decade that I
have laughed at a Dick joke is is Derek.
Telling Vector to eat shit like. Oh my God, Derek is a great
addition this season. Delightful.
I would. Yeah.
Delightful Derek. I would say he icon saved a lot
of the season in a lot of like cringy roles.
We'll talk about also like characters that were kind of
left out in the season like I would have.
I'd love to see more of Erica. Erica was the first season.
Like I don't I don't understand what.
They kind of replaced Erica with Derek.
Yeah, it was confusing. And but then we focused so much
on Holly. I don't know why we haven't
focused on Holly in Season 1 through 4, like almost at all.
Holly 8 and Derek were the most gutsy choices that the writers
made, and two of those choices were really bad.
Yeah. So which is Holly and eight.
You know, Holly the actress is fine, but like it's more Holly
was like the. Main character of the.
Show out of nowhere and there were sweet moments like Mike and
Holly, but Holly literally became the like 11 of the.
Show that's so true. Yeah, it's wild.
It was very weird, yeah. We didn't like end the the final
season with a focus on deepening the characters, especially
they're about to graduate. There's so much to do.
It's our last season with. Basically a super bad right?
Like Jonah Hill, Michael Cera, like fighting about being
roommates and lies. Like, you know, like there's so
much to do to do with the anxieties of moving to a new
chapter of your life that it just makes no sense to like do
Camazot and focus on Max and this like, Ragdoll costume going
through Vecna's memories that we don't even get to see.
This is another. Huge we're going to get.
Lost. OK, we don't get to see.
There's a hallway. There is a hallway.
A school hallway. Yes, that is Vecna's memory.
We learn that someone. Henry.
Yeah.
Well, Henry's in the play or whatever, but there's a play
card. We hear Joyce Byers, right?
Hopper's there, the Wheelers are there.
Becna's there. We never get to see what
happened. All the kids at Sinclair's, like
all the kids parents are there, I, I believe.
Yeah, so. They introduce us to it like
early on in the season and we never go back.
Besides Max saying like, Oh yeah, I've been in this memory
Mr. and Misses Wheeler in that closet down there, like making
out here's blah, blah blah. Like why would we choose to just
leave that on the? Teams like they cut in episode
or two, right? It does feel like that because
it doesn't feel like they're setting up for a spin off.
It really feels like they cut something.
There's even a moment where Vecna captures Will again.
He's like, you're going to spy for me.
And then when Will has his coming out moment, which we will
get to, he talks about how he sees in his vision that Beckna
showed him that they wouldn't accept him, which is why he felt
the need to reclaim like, his sexuality in that moment and
come out to everybody. But we never see those moments
that Beckna showed him. Like, there's so many things
that are brought up that are never further explored or never
shown to us about. Like the subplots that made me
feel like there were episodes cut from the season, which is
confusing because it's like a $400 million season of
television. Yeah, I don't know.
It was really, it was really frustrating, like the the things
that you felt like were an opportunity there to close
things out and then said they were trying to like do new
things. And we also spent like 3
episodes with Steve and Jonathan competing over Nancy.
Yeah, which makes no sense. Like in the Jonathan story arc.
Also like Don, just not do that. Yeah, it.
Felt like his character a lot in season 4 with the weed thing
even though Argyle was really funny and awesome and they.
Yeah, they made him like kind of indifferent and yeah, it was, it
was strange, but I so yes, there.
Was like. Yeah.
But I think that there were just a lot of like out of left field
things that happened here that just didn't need to happen to
make something more interesting that was already interesting
and. Then Dustin getting jumped and
all of his friends being like well that's your fault.
Oh. Yeah, we never came back to
that. I thought we would have a moment
where we come back to Dustin being like, I was jumped and
everyone being like, I'm really sorry.
Yeah, yeah. Especially coming off of Vecna
and realizing that Max, like, you know, finds out that people
who are vulnerable to Vecna. And there's also right,
obviously, like a suicide metaphor in the season 4, right?
Vecna of it all. But you know, Max finds out that
everyone's experiencing the same symptoms of like depression of
loneliness, of trauma. And then we've cut to season 5.
Dustin gets jumped and everyone's like you're late dude
to the run like what the hell? And you're the only person who
built this antenna system and we don't know how to work it
without you. No one's checking in.
We obviously get to the reveal sort of of it, but there isn't
really like an emotional moment for checking in on Dustin, which
I thought they were just continuing again the the season
4 through line of like maybe forgetting to check in on your
friends. And the tough thing is not to do
like we're going to write Stranger things for the Duffers
because obviously they created this extraordinary world and
universe and like character journeys with really ambitious
themes, like personal moral themes and and family themes.
But but there was a moment and a lot of actually, there's a lot
of moments in Season 5 where I go, well, if they just make this
small decision, this automatically becomes more
interesting. And it's so it seems so obvious,
like with the dust and issue of him not fixing or not being
there on time and him getting jumped by those guys at Eddie's,
the cemetery, Eddie's tombstone, I think is where he is.
That's already a tragic kind of image and scene as it was to
then go to I think Misses Wheeler being almost killed at
the end of the episode as a result of Dustin.
I believe that's the same episode that was a result of
Dustin not being there. It's something like that.
Yeah. And I was like, oh, they could
have like attached that to like to add to his guilt and then
Mike and him having this like, conflict because his mom's dead
now. Like there are so many different
things they could have done that and and Misses Wheeler being
killed protecting her daughter weirdly felt like kind of
deserved because she's kind of the mom of the whole party in a
way, because everyone's always at her house and everyone's
hanging out in her basement and she's always worried for
everyone. Even though we do get the great
moment of her at the hospital when she hears that Lucas is in
danger. And they say over the intercom,
like Lucas is in danger. The Demogorgons are running
after you. She's like, I got to say less.
And she turns into like an 80s, you know, star like much like
Nancy is portrayed in this season.
And Nancy just walk around with shotguns.
Throughout half the season, Which?
Is dope. She's become like, yeah, Ripley.
And that was a really like fun Jurassic Park sequence of the
the kids. Yeah, hiding behind like, what?
I mean there was a washroom, but like what looked like the
kitchen in Jurassic Park of the Velociraptors.
The demo dogs like coming around the corner.
A 90s film, but it's OK. That's OK, yeah.
But yeah, I mean, I think that the the stakes like I understand
maybe opening it up for a sequel, a spin off like keeping
that, you know, keeping the core characters, which they did do
ultimately with 11. Like now there is a a read of
her dying, but there's also a read that could leave it open
where she does actually escape, because this happens in season
one and two right where she this appears, yeah, into the
chalkboard saves the the party. But then we find out at the
beginning of season 2 that she was actually just like in the
upside down breaks through and and is living with Hopper,
right, and he is like now her father slash like keeping her
safe. So there this has happened
before. So it kind of leaves them open.
But for characters like Misses Wheeler, like, it would have
made sense to add stakes to the world to just kill her.
Like, I love that, yes, she came back to save them in the
hospital, but it would have made sense to kind of like, have some
gravity because then I felt like no one was really going to die.
Absolutely. I want to come back to this
because it's kind of my main issue with this season is that
they established that stakes exist like adults and kids will
die in the show and Season 4. Season 4 changed the whole game
like emotionally for stranger. Things, I mean, it was like a
horror episode. It was, I mean, a horror season.
Yeah, it was awesome. OK, so the first thing I want to
talk about, that's like a major issue.
I have like a couple issues here I lined up in the notes.
And we have positives, just to be clear, like.
Let's do negatives first issues first.
This is no but this is a really bad season of television.
I think it is watchable, but it is very bad and I want to break
apart why? Because I do.
We already did our farewell that was like really nice in the 1st
25 minutes of this episode, I feel.
But we can talk about some positives toward the end and
throughout this, like there's some performances that I really,
really like. I think the first big issue is
when I said at the top already, but just I want to expand on it,
is the lore problem in Stranger Things.
This is my biggest issue. Every season of Stranger Things
has been trying to expand on the Upside Down, which is fine, but
that's always been, I think in unison with character
development. And this is the first time where
I felt the lore building competing with the character
development, which I found to be very strange in the last season
of ATV show that should be coming to some kind of like
balanced finale that even if it was just fine, would have been
fine. The fact that was so poorly
done, I was just honestly really shocked by the end of the show
because they just done too much. Like every season of the show is
added a new villain layer. We had the Demogorgans to start
season 1 and 2 with the mind flare.
At the end of season 2. We had Vecna and season 4
through 5. And now season 5 added another
realm entirely where we're adding a lot more science
fiction into this. It starts feeling like
Interstellar, where we have the Abyss and Dimension X, whatever
that those things mean. Thank God they drew a diagram
for me of our world. Hawkins right side up Vecna's
world and then the bridge which is the Upside Down.
Which is helpful, but I don't come to the show for the Upside
down. Yeah, everybody comes to the
show for the characters. That's that's storytelling.
You come for the emotion. And in the science fiction
behind it is supposed to be like this driving force of plot,
right? And instead it became about the
plot, which was very confusing to me.
And the idea that they're the Upside Down was actually this
bridge, from what I understand from Vecna's world, which is
like the abyss. And that's where the mind flare
is. That's where he lives inside the
mind flare. And then which?
Was a cool reveal. I I think so.
There's so much retconning that I don't know.
Do I think some retconning is cooler than others?
Yes, but still retconning. So it's a convenient
storytelling because you have a billion dollar TV show that you
can kind of do whatever you want to make it work.
So yes, I guess it was cool, a good visual.
I guess it looked like Vecno was in Godzilla at the end of.
This show, the issue which we'll get to is like that it that it
was like A1 quick battle at the end and the show didn't need as
much planning to outline this like plot of finding out that
there's Vecno's world that's going to crash into our world
upside down, the bridge and all this stuff.
Like was it interesting to see them go to Hawkins Lab and
figure out that the dark matter wasn't created by Vecna?
It was created by Brenner. Sure, whatever, but like.
But also what does that? Even mean yeah, like, but the
the issue like you're saying, because I don't care that
there's a Vecna's world and a bridge and in our world, like
yes, that's a cool development and yes, it's cool that they're
they're going to figuring more about the upside down to use
that to their advantage in terms of like what exists at the lab
to find Vecna's source of power, how he's like creating this
camisot or his own reality, right, which they end up then
finding like it actually is just a different world.
It's not the Upside Down. Yeah.
So like, that all works. The issue is in between, like
you're saying, is we have Jonathan and Nancy kind of
fighting because of the Steve and Jonathan thing, which
doesn't really make sense within the Jonathan character arc.
The strongest thing about Jonathan is honestly his
relationship to Will, like throughout all these seasons.
And we get that in one scene, but it's not, I don't know, not
really like honed in on in the season.
And then we have the sort of breakup between Nancy and
Jonathan that doesn't make sense.
I think we both watched it and came out with two different
opinions of what happened. I was like, he proposed to her
in a room that is sinking, which you called out very, very aptly
that this was a Titanic scene, which is awesome of like
sludging through the what is that plastic, whatever it was
melting building. Again, a 90s reference.
Yeah, which is strange. Which we love.
We're doing Titanic on the pod, like in a few days.
Yeah, on Patreon. So that was fun to see as a
reference. But then they're they're about
to drown. And Jonathan says, you know, I I
have this, like, ring in my pocket.
I've been waiting it to give it to you.
And will you not marry me? Yeah.
Did they break up? Did he say that we should be
together and just not get married because we're not ready
for it? Well.
We know they broke up because of epilogue.
Well, now because of the epilogue, sure, but it.
Sounds like Nancy might be gay question mark.
They might have added a queer lens.
Oh I didn't realize that's how I read it at the end.
Interesting. What part of the the end like?
Their conversation, I don't have a conversation right in front of
me, but the way that the conversation, the words they
were using, the way the way she was emoting her sentences about
being on her own and like meeting new people and like,
gotcha. And I was just like, and also
she looked great in her haircut. But I was thinking about the 80s
and just like, single woman on their own.
And I don't know, I think they were like nodding to some like
Thelma and Louise stuff. Gotcha.
That was just the way I read it. Yeah.
Maybe. I think though, with their
relationship, it just like was a horrible ending to a really
strong like couple who really found each other because they
were both like brave and cared about their family.
And in a way where like Nancy wasn't close to Mike.
It was kind of like a nice, beautiful thing to see them like
grow closer and just like wanting to save each other and
trusting each other. But Jonathan really like, so
Nancy was kind of like the brave aspect, which the Wheelers are
kind of supposed to be this like, you know, brave.
The badass family. Like you said last night,
they're all Gryffindors and it's a family of Gryffindors.
So true. Truly, they're the Weasleys.
Yeah, and Jonathan is a little bit like timid to go into the
Upside down. Wants to ultimately then save
Nancy, wants to save his brother.
Is willing to like though. Do that to to save his brother
in the first like couple seasons.
And I I just really like their relationship as they like grow
together. And it was a horrible ending to
their characters and their relationship that didn't really
make sense of the logic of their what their emotional like arcs
have been. And then you're right.
Then it just weakens, like, why are we in this melting building?
Like, who gives a shit about all this, like science stuff that
Dustin's figuring out that it's fun for Dustin to like draw this
map and find the same map in the Upside Down Hawkins Lab.
But. Meanwhile, he's fighting.
Steve yeah, Meanwhile, also which?
Is a complicated. It's fine to have Steve and
Dustin fighting, but they're being so mean to each other.
It feels weird just to have like a, you know, Steve saying that
he was not jealous, but like basically of of Dustin morning
Eddie, which is like such a selfish, weird thing to do.
Like, yes, maybe kids have immature, you know, reactions,
but that feels so out of character for Steve to not be
aware that Dustin's grieving like someone who, again, like
Dustin, you know, doesn't have a dad.
He so Steve is coming. He feels outed also by like an
outsider to even his friend group at times, right?
He wants to keep the Hellfire going and.
They don't. And so that was so weird to have
like, Steve feel like he kind of like, like took that love or
safety away from Dustin, I think.
Gaytan and Joe are really good actors, and so they made that
performance work, that kind of conflict work, the comedy.
Work in some parts of it, but then it then it just got to a
place where it was like this is just like they're being neat.
But even that worked emotionally.
Like when Steve wants to go and rescue Jonathan and Nancy and go
up the stairs and Gaytan is like, I can't lose you too and
he's crying. It's a really good performance.
And the stairs fall through and Joe has like a realization or
perform the performance. You can see the realization in
his face. None of it feels deserved in the
writing. Yeah, that's what felt
manipulative. They're just like point actors
and that was manipulative. Yeah.
The point I was trying to make with the whole like abyss and
dimension X thing, even though I cosign everything you're saying
about the Jonathan, Nancy, Steve Ark and we can get to that too.
Is that because the dimension X aspect of this of like planet
eating planets and these like multi dimension?
I don't know. Anomalies get injected into this
like family coming of age drama story, found family story.
It feels like there, it feels like when there's a plot device
injected into stories and that the characters tell you this
plot device means everything and you're like, OK, because it
means everything. It also means nothing to me and
it reminds me a lot of the failures of the MCU with the
multiverse in terms of what's happened to Stranger Things
toward the end of the show, which is like, let's try to
world build, universe build so we can Add all these potential
possibilities for good storytelling and either future
projects. It's kind of like the failures
of capitalism, I guess as a metaphor would be like the MCU
and Stranger Things are just funny.
But like the point that these writers are missing is that
these universes that you're adding to your stories only
matter if we care about the fucking characters in the
universes. So if we don't know the
characters in the multi verses you're creating or the dimension
XS or whatever those things mean, if we don't care about the
people, then we don't care about your sci-fi stuff.
Like we don't care about the fantasy stuff.
And so I don't know, I felt like as soon as we saw Holly falling
through the wormhole or whatever she was doing from back in this
place to the Upside Down, I was like, this show is cooked.
Because all of Season 4 tried to establish that kids can can die
in Stranger Things, adults can die, and that there's a Freddy
Krueger murderer coming for you in your dreams if you're
depressed or lonely or isolated or going through some kind of
trauma. And he also has a really scary
theme song with a clock. Good luck, you know what I mean?
Like, that was a good pick for season 4.
And to Add all this other shit to make Vecna feel weightless as
a villain because of all this crazy, I don't know, cosmic
stuff going on in the background was just so shocking to me.
And when it took 20 minutes to kill Vecna, and then we took
another 30 to do the epilogue, I was like, what is happening?
How do we spend five years of our life watching two or three
seasons of the show with Vecna being this big bad?
But then Millie Bobby Brown as 11 comes in is like, I'm just
going to put you on the spike real quick.
And then Joyce fires. It was so easy to kill.
Cut off your head after 7 chops. It would mean it was so weird
how easy it was to kill Becna and the Mind Flayer after all of
this. Like what I think they should
have done is what they did in season 4, which is they're, you
know, a group that goes into the upside down.
Like we have Nancy, Robin, Eddie, Steve going to the upside
down. We're like getting towards the
finale. We have some failures.
Steve is bitten up by bats, like Eddie dies.
And then we we like continue to find different things like the
light bright situation of communicating, like through the
lights. That was really cool.
That was like put us in the peril a little bit longer
instead of rehashing and literally like telling us
through characters giving speeches or having conversations
with one another what is happening in the story.
Like give us the what's happening or like that was just
so weird to me too, because we've seen that happen in other
seasons. I think there are parts of, I'm
forgetting season 2-3 and mostly two and three and then like 4,
though in certain aspects where there were episodes that I was
kind of shocked. Like, why are we?
Why is someone telling me, like, what's happening?
And that mostly happened again in like the prison Russian
prison sequence. Where we kept.
Yeah, had to like keep going back to like, what's happening
here. Like, let's tell they're going
to tell us what happened in the previous seasons and Hopper's
relationship to Elle. It was just like, why are we
rehashing this? And it was especially like if
the Duffers were going to decide to break this up into three
parts, a a terrible decision to be like, well, it's very short
sighted. I think to to be like, well,
they just watched the first part.
Now there's a couple weeks between it.
Let's remind them in the first episode of Part 2, everything
that happened. It makes it a terrible viewing
experience, super anticlimactic. And I think you know, especially
when you end with a really strong and to Part 1 of will the
sorcerer like. Which was one of the coolest
moments of this show. Definitely one of the yeah so
cool. Like, loved it.
And felt deserved. But also then they they did do a
lot with like the Harry Potter, Voldemort, right, being
connected, but at the same time didn't like there are a lot of
plot holes then within this. And and then you know, the
following episode, if you're if you're just re watching it, like
for people who didn't watch it in the sequence of when it came
out, they're just going to watch like season 5 and binge it.
It's it will be a very strange experience.
I think to go from Will being a source for to then the next like
2 episodes of just let's rehash what happened in the first part
of this very short short season. Yeah, Speaking of Will, let's
talk about him because he is one of the main characters of the
show. I you think you could make an
argument he is the main character?
I think 11 is like. Aesthetically, the main
character. But yeah, but he seems to be the
emotional center of the show in terms of like Joyce and her
pursuit and back then his pursuit from Season 1 to Season
5. I think the setup to Will's
character is perfect in Season 1.
It's the show at its best where we have this great mystery
coming of age drama, genuinely scary sci-fi fantasy all
operating at once, multi toned, multi genre.
And Will is this incredibly cute kid with a bowl cut, innocent
loves playing games with his friends, is a kind of a mommy's
boy but in a very kind of like loving way, has a nice
relationship with his brother. Father is an asshole and missing
so you kind of feel bad for him. He's a sympathetic character and
the performance is is you would think.
I think the performance is really good or the directors are
just good at directing kids in Season 1.
I can't really tell. Yeah, I mean, all the kids, I
wouldn't say they're like amazing performers, but they
feel like they're able to be genuine kids and not give like a
noticeable performance, right, Which I think is like both,
right. So like, the kids in all their
interviews were talked a lot about how the Duffer brothers
made them feel comfortable to just kind of like be creative
and acting on set. And I think just like the kids
being comfortable with one another and acting like kids
like was the strength, right? I felt like they were being
goofy and. Especially Lucas and Mike.
Yeah, yeah. But Mike does have some like
stand out monologues, I'm very sure of himself like Kid, which
is very funny and and really worked for his character.
I easily the best child performer when they're kids, and
then when they're teenagers, it's probably Dustin.
I agree, Yeah. I agree yeah, but I think like,
you know, having Lucas and Mike fight around like the the kind
of Mike's attention to 11 and not and not looking for like
Will like that conflict feels realized and Gaytan wanting to
just like everyone to be happy. And then also like Will, you
know, feeling there are like good child performances here of
like Will feeling, you know, connected to his friends, but at
the same time like an outsider even to his friends.
And they show that in terms of a class in in different ways where
he, you know, only has his mom, only has his brother, right?
And they're living in a house that's falling apart.
Yeah, and and you can see him like feeling like he connects to
Mike in particular and to his friends, but also feels like
just a little bit like not living the same life as them or,
you know what he like kind of imagines in terms of this like
nuclear family in the 80s. And he's a good artist and
there's a lot to love about Will in Season 1.
And Will goes missing, and that's the center of Stranger
Things is this missing kid who has a sort of broken family that
still loves him, that is creating a found family that
also feels other by like mainstream society as we learn
more that he's bullied for potentially being gay and we
learned he is gay. And it's really clear also in
the first season, I think, like the first or second episode, you
know, Winona talks about how the father who left right always,
like called him queer. And then also the bullies in
particular, right? Like.
Fuck those kids, yeah. Make a lot of like comments,
good performances. Yeah, you you can tell they're
essentially like the from weapons, like Josh Brolin and
his their dad, right. And so like there's a there's a
lot there in in terms of like Will's character that wasn't
yes, it was returned to a little bit, yeah, throughout the
seasons. But I feel I wish they they kind
of like focused in on like that aspect a little bit more
throughout the season. So it wasn't just rushed at the
end to like have this coming out scene for Will.
Well, the tension of season 1 and season 2 is learning
obviously about 11, the superpowers, the upside down,
but it's also about the disappearance of Will, where is
Will and his disappearance becomes the loaded metaphor of
the entire series. This this metaphor of otherness
about growing up queer in a hostile environment in the 80s,
about being erased, maybe kidnapped, maybe assaulted.
There's a lot of like allusions to a lot of traumatic things
that have happened to Will through his childhood.
And so he is the most frustrating character in
Stranger Things because he is simultaneously what makes me so
emotionally connected to the first few seasons, but also
makes me so emotionally disconnected in future seasons
because he basically in seasons 3 and 4 becomes just this like
plot device to connect to the mind flare.
And that does work in terms of the PTSD.
And we get a lot of PTSD moments with him of having these like
visions being shot back into the upside down in season 2 in
particular, and him learning from Sean Astin that he should
just like bully the Mind Flayer and the Mind Flayer fucks will
up. Yeah, go away.
Yeah, go. Great advice.
Does not work. Good acting though.
Yeah, and yeah, it's a really, again, a really smart long term
metaphor. The show continues throughout
the entire series and then season 5 almost nails the
payoff. And Noah is a snap, right?
No snap does a good job. Wait, let me confirm that.
Is it Noah snap? I feel like I'm saying that
wrong. Noah snap is Will Byers.
In season 5 it is revealed that he is a gay.
Nice Wikipedia. Is that what Wikipedia says?
Oh my God. OK, so in season 5, the twist,
but also something that is I think interesting and good and
bad ways is will basically becomes Harry Potter where the
thing that makes him, that made him quote UN quote different.
The thing that led to other people hurting him becomes the
thing he has to reclaim and weaponize to be a super hero,
essentially to be a sorcerer, right?
It's sorcerer, right? Not a what do they say, a
magician or. He's not a wizard, he's a
sorcerer. Erica and Mike have a really
like cute funny scene of it being like it.
Matters it matters. It's different.
So what's beautiful about Season 5 is they do reclaim his
otherness, his queerness, his connection to the upside down
all together as like this strength.
And that's what he's like coming out scene is supposed to
represent. And so you know where we go back
to episode 4 of Season 5 and you have Will taking out the
Demogorgens and we get genuinely great filmmaking to help the
performance. It's the first time in years
that I think Noah Schnapp and that character fully convinced
me they were going somewhere interesting finally with Will
since season one or two. But then the coming out scene
happens. And even though I think it made
sense on paper, it felt so weirdly mishandled, like,
visually editing wise, some of the direction of the performers
in the periphery of the scene, some people who were in the room
who must have been confused about what was happening.
And it was, it was frustrating. But it was also very strangely
emotionally cringe because I was emotional watching a character I
cared about that I have like, you know, frustrating feelings
about, especially the actor. And then but I I cared about
this family seeing Will and Will accepting who he is and them so
happy that he's finally accepting himself as they've
accepted and supported him around his friends and
everything. But the way they set it up,
where he's about to reveal all this to Winona Ryder and then he
sees Finn. Which actually would have been
like a beautiful scene. Been great for Winona too, Yeah,
as a kind of sign off to her character and feeling like she
did a good job as a mother to support him.
Or just being like, well, because you're about to set it
up. He's about to tell Winona.
Yeah. And.
And the reason also too, like he, it is like Vecna just gave
me, like you kind of talked about earlier, right, this
vision. And so I, I don't think that's
true. Like this is what people are
telling me, but I know the people in my life like love me.
And so I'm going to tell Winona. Mike comes in to tell them we
got to leave in like 5 minutes and he says you should actually
be here for this too. I was like, OK, that's, you
know, that makes sense too. That feels like, I guess just
emotionally realistic within the story and the friendships and
relationships in this in this. But then he goes, which feels in
like a forced plot device insert.
Actually, everyone should be here for this.
And then the cut to everyone just like staring at him from
the cast, like everyone is there and you know, there there is
like obviously the reason the Duffers probably did this was
like showing that like all of the different again, like this
is a story about a lot of like different people who feel like
outsiders. So this whole crew, this whole
team, the party is growing, but it's just so jarring and so
forced to have this like whole collective room looking at no or
looking at Will. And then the the performance is
good from Noah. But yeah, it felt just like it
felt disconnected, right? Like emotionally disconnected.
And yes, I cried one because of like the journey with Will's
character, but also like obviously like a broader
connection to just like coming out and so.
And Jonathan, Charlie Heaton's performance is Jonathan going up
to hug him first? But then it just felt like
beautiful. Yeah, it it obviously was like
a, a really like emotionally like strong scene to see all of
the different characters in his life, like Dustin, Mike, Lucas,
like say yes, like we accept you.
But what felt weird was the second part of like everyone who
didn't get up to hug him, you know, like, it just you felt
like the disconnect of the, the relationships that haven't been
like through lines throughout the the story.
And you only have so much time. So like, he doesn't need to be
best friends with like Nancy Wheeler.
But having the making the decision to cut to them and
they're just like, sitting there felt weird.
The the girl that Robin had a crush on.
Oh yeah, he was. Like and that's and Mike was my
Tammy basically, even though he didn't.
Say Mike. Yeah.
He's like, I had a friend who was my Tammy.
And I think Mike, you could kind of see Finn, I don't know if I'm
reading into this, but like doing like a double take of like
him knowing that his character has to sort of connect the dots
here because he doesn't know who Tammy is.
And also he's like, wait, who is that friend?
No one knows who Tammy is except for Robin.
Yeah. Yeah, which then I assume Finn
doesn't like, I assume Mike doesn't know that Will was
talking about him because in season, in the last episode that
we just watched, he says you're not just my friend.
And they pause for an awkwardly long time.
He's like, you're my best friend.
Yeah. And I was like, what the fuck
was that? It was just so strange.
Choice from the writing and also the way they directed the
performers there. Yeah, although we were like, you
know, that's it's nice that, you know, Mike apologized and he was
like, I obviously. It was nice.
Yeah. Wasn't paying attention to like,
what was going on emotionally with you, like what you must
have been going through. And like, I, I basically wish
that I'd been there for you. It it is interesting though,
because earlier and I forget which season, it must be season
2 when Will comes back. And there's that kind of whole
conflict with him wanting to play DND and everyone else being
interested in like relationships or girls.
And Mike yells at him at one point like, it's not my fault
you don't like girls. And so it was interesting to
like have this brought back where Mike was just because now
at this point after the California storyline, which is.
Pretty bad storyline. Yeah, like we're. 11.
Yeah, 11 Taking a skate to a person's face was pretty wild.
I was pro. Yeah, but and so like, but 11
lying to Mike, right. And then Mike, and she's like
you. Never say it.
He's like, say what she's like. You never say I love you.
I mean, how does this show end? 11's like I love you.
And Mike just stares at 11 in the Upside Down or wherever that
Little Dream. Yeah.
Spaces. But that, yeah, that whole weird
portion of then you know how Steve and Dustin kind of
fighting this season felt unrealistic?
But also felt weird with Will and Mike like it did to a
certain extent of of will being like, I'm just or sorry, Mike
just being like, I'm just your friend, like elevens my
girlfriend. That's why I call her all the
time. But also he's like not, you
know, paying attention to their friendship.
So I mean it feels realistic in terms of like the actual plot
but the the performances next to each other and the continuous
like them being in a room fighting got tired and felt
weird so like. And Will painted him a picture
in season. Yeah.
And Mike has that picture on his wall at the end of this series
and epilogue when he's writing a story.
And he thinks that 11 asked Will, I think, to make him that
painting. And Will never told him that it
was basically a love letter to him.
There's a lot of unspoken shit in the show that they fucked.
Up on but I guess like yes, it was a nice scene for Mike to say
like, I'm really sorry I was so focused on myself and like 11.
I wasn't even paying attention to you.
Like that was nice, but it would have been I guess nice to be
like, I just I nod to how like I was kind of an asshole.
Like I was, you know, a little bit more.
You don't have to give specifics, but like it.
Yeah. Anyway.
So like these are examples again of like Season 5 being a weird
like putting a bow on something but it just like felt undeserved
or like emotionally like deep enough.
Yeah, inconsistent too. I mean, if you are critical of
Season 5, I would, you know, in that coming out scene, I would
direct you to Robin coming out to Steve as one of the great
scenes ever in television, inside the mall, in the bathroom
when they're high. It's incredible.
That's an incredible scene for so many reasons.
And the performances from both of them are wonderful in that
moment. And it showed you the Duffers
could direct and write a scene like that beautifully.
And so you get to your point, the Noah's sports.
Yeah, the scene in season 5 with Will.
The point I was getting to though, in terms of like on
paper, I can see why reclaiming the very thing about you that
has othered you, giving you a superpower and then kind of
weaponizing the Vecna abuse to use it against Vecna.
I love that on idea on paper. And they got there with episode
4 when he like breaks those Demogorgon's arms and shit like
that to protect his friends. That was dope.
However, when we get to this final episode and Will goes to
get into Vecna's mind to fuck with him in a mind flare in the
core conceit of this entire show when it comes to Vecna and Will
is that hurting Vecna and hurting the mind flare hurts
Will and that their pain is linked.
It just disappears in the finale.
Like when Vecna dies, the mind flare dies and Will is fine.
Which is my issue thematically, because if he's Harry Potter,
Will Will would be a sacrificial character.
And that would make sense to me because in some ways, Will's
been dead since Season 1. In season 2, which is a really
fun kind of mystery of like he likes it cold, like finding out
that Will actually has the Mind Flayer in him, which is then
Vecna, which you find out later on, obviously.
But Mike realizes that Will in the hospital when they're in
Hawkins Lab is actually not Will and has told the hive mind,
right, that everyone's in the hospital and that they're that
like they're in one place to strike.
And Mike is like he's not him, you know, like Will is not Will
and and that whole kind of reveal.
But you're right, like especially in that sequence.
And then as we go further into the story, like when they burn
part of the the vines or one of the like slug things, right,
that comes from the upside down, Will is an excruciating pain.
Like he's screaming. I think there is actually one
point when, yeah, when the whole thing's on fire, he starts like
shaking and convulsing. Like he right at the end of that
is a really scary like seizing rate moment.
And so you're right like I'm it's, it's surprising that
nothing happened to Will once the upside down is destroyed.
Well. It seems like they were like,
let's sacrifice 11 instead. Yeah.
I just think that was a bad decision in terms of the
emotions of the show. I'm not saying that we should
kill like the will just to kill will.
I think it made sense thematically.
I think. I also think it makes sense
metaphorically. I think a large part of the show
is about like maybe maybe nodding to suicide or nodding to
murder, nodding to assault or nodding to kidnapping and the
loss of Will. The show was inspired by
prisoners, the Denis Denis Villeneuve film.
Brothers use prisoners, inspire them to make a show about Will.
And I think they should have doubled down on that because I
think a part of the show has been Joyce and Will.
I feel like we never really got an end to Joyce's character and
her and her her raising of Will and Jonathan instead.
Of like cutting Vecna's head off.
Yeah, she's like you fucked with the wrong.
Fan which at one point I was like damn, like I know that like
going back to season 4, Vecna was a wild like Freddy Krueger.
He was a scary person. But I mean, the seven hits I was
like starting to feel bad for. Well, that was interesting
because when we Start learning more about the Vecna origin
story and him as a kid and getting shot in the hand and
getting that stone, whatever the fuck that was in the briefcase
that gave him his powers, and we get like a Vecna origin story.
I was really worried that we were going to start feeling bad
for Vecna and being overly sympathetic for Henry but being
critical of Vecna because Vecna is embodiment of the mind flare
and Henry is an innocent victim who was maybe traumatized
himself in that cave, which is why he didn't want to come out
of it or sorry, go inside of it. I was really worried in like the
last episode that we were going to go do that kind of like
Hunger Games. What is that songbirds and
snakes movie? Where?
Where we get like President Snow's back.
The fascist is like hot and had a sad story if that makes sense.
You know I was also. Are they going to do that here?
Yeah, I was also thinking when we're in the like lab with all
the different numbers, that would have been a cooler story
to tell instead of like President Snow.
This is not a Hunger Games podcast, sorry, but like the the
capital, like the District 1 and 2, like how they raised and like
how you know what I mean instead of them being in like this elite
school regardless, anyway, keep going we'll.
Go back and I'll edit that out and put that in The Hunger Games
episode on page around. But instead they kind of go the
opposite direction where they're like, we're not going to be
sympathetic to Henry. In fact, we're going to have
Henry say some crazy shit, which is like, I actually chose to be
back now. I wanted to work with the mind
flare and it actually threw me off even more in a strange way
where I was like, wait, what? Like he's pure evil.
Like I don't understand. I actually kind of feel bad for
the character now that they wrote him that way ANYWAYS, So I
guess yeah, don't fuck with the the buyers family.
Yeah, well, there. Yeah, that is really strange
because in season 4 we kind of get the reveal that the power
made him feel like, you know, he him as an outsider, like the
kids and Stranger Things, right, playing with spiders in his
addict you know whatever. Maybe didn't have D&D or people
nearby then I. Thought they made him a queer
coded character as well. I thought they're going in that
direction with it. Right, so like to you're so
right to have this whole like here, all of Vecna's dreams are
whatever memories, right that we keep going back to.
We're going to have a big reveal of like why he is the way he is.
And then immediately like after we find out, have that switch
up, have that like no, we rely on each other.
I am glad, yes, that we didn't have a total like Vecna.
Let's make sure that we understand like everything about
him and why he made the decision.
Like we don't need to go that deep into The Cave.
But you're right, it was a very like abrupt switch up,
especially because then he just like dies immediately after and
you're like, wait, it's this easy to kill him?
Like it just everything happened so fast.
And I guess they said don't. What did you think when they
showed the whole high school pamphlet thing of coming out to
that party near the caves with all the kids parents when they
were younger? In high school, in the.
Hallway in the hallway. How did you take that?
Because I I thought they're going the direction of oh, all
these kids were chosen by Beckna in the mind flare through Beckna
because their parents bullied. Yeah, I thought we were going to
get a bullying scene of Batman. Yeah, they fucked him up in that
cave. Yeah.
And it felt like, I feel like I'm not off base and assuming
that. And it feels like they totally
were, like, we're not going to, this is going to take too long.
And they go to like, he shot this random guy, shot him in a
cave and it was traumatic for him, right.
Yeah. So.
Marvel, Yeah. Strange.
But I totally have the same thing.
I thought like the we're going to see different people, like
getting bullied essentially similar to how we saw in the
first season of how Mike, Dustin and Lucas had to kind of like
figure things out on their own in order to say, well.
Other characters Mike and 11. Anything you want to say about
them 11? I've never really loved like
Mike and 11 as a relationship. I've loved Mike.
I think 11 I was, you know, I was never totally in on her
character because I didn't like that the only like girl in the
group was silent. I know it was a part of the
plot, and that's fine, but it's a great point.
It just felt like increasingly kind of annoying, especially
when we get to Season 2 and we have like Hopper and 11:00 and
then when we finally, I think the the good part of 11's
character is when she meets Max and she's like, and Max is like
who like who are you outside of the men in your life
essentially, right, Like Hopper and Mike and like find this this
clothing that is like fun for you, whatever.
So like that and. Then they never come back to.
That never come back yeah but that that best friend Max
sequence of like her reading comics with Max and finding out
about like Wonder Woman. I think whoever was but that was
all really fun and having a 11 kind of develop her own
character and personality. I understand, you know, for
listeners who don't feel that way, like that there maybe was a
certain amount of time that we just needed for 11 to be ET.
You know, she literally is ET and Mike is Elliot.
And so I, I totally get that, but it just never, I was never
like, Oh yeah, I love Mike and 11:00 because Mike is
essentially in love with someone who can't talk.
And even though again, like he's identifying this like outsider,
you know, the, the reading that I get is that like he's
identifying that she feels different and so does he.
Right, except they have to play down the fact that film wolf
hard becomes like an incredibly conventionally attractive as
like this like 6 foot 3 white man with like incredible jaw
structure and and cheekbones. All the Wheelers, it's crazy.
The Wheelers, yeah. Beautiful people, Nancy and Ted
Mike's jawline. Ted has his moments when he was
hitting they had the 9 iron outside.
I was like good on you Ted. I like M11 at least I did.
The first two seasons of M11 I I thought were really cute.
I thought they were well done of like first love kind of stuff.
And they had a real kind of like going to your point, it is a
little bit problematic but an unspoken protectiveness over one
another that I felt was genuine and sweet.
And I think Finn Wolfhard as a young boy is really sassy and
and angry and kind of anxious and manic.
Yeah. Screaming at his mom or sister
were awesome moments. Or talking about his sister
studying the human anatomy with Steve at the.
Breakfast table. And he's got a ride or die
energy for his friends. And in that season, he tells
Dustin when they're looking for like Lucas or whatever that
Dustin feels like kind of left out.
You're part of the group, dude. Like you're you can have more
than one best friend. He carries a lot of season 1
with those kids Finn Wolfhard does and the snowball dance in
season 2. That was like one of the purest
moments in like, coming of age stories and TV.
But once the kids start becoming young adults around Season 3 and
Max comes into the story, something does break a little
bit. As soon as we can start getting
into like Hopper Moore's dad and like needing the door, what is
it like? 3 inches open 3 inches.
Open, which is a funny bit between the two characters, but
the chemistry between Mike and 11 and specifically Finn and and
Millie really starts to disappear as they become young
adults in real life. I'm not super plugged into the
pop culture because they're younger than us so I don't
really know what's going on, but it's always seemed to me that
they, I would assume, don't like.
Each other, they seem like, Yeah.
They seem very different in real life and interviews that I've
seen. I've not I don't have any
evidence of that but their characters seem to like all
their love and like romantic stuff.
Feel so forced and overly gushy that a lot of it flattens Mikes
character and elevens character. But specifically Mike, who goes
from being funny, neurotic and kind of perceptive to basically
self absorbed in season 3 and Season 4 to kind of annoying to
being like one of the least interesting characters of the
crew to season 5 where they're sort of like now you are just
reacting to everything. You come into rooms randomly and
you're reacting to what's happening in scenes.
So I found their use of him to be really fascinating and bad.
And then with 11 and Millie Bobby Brown, how do we talk
about this? She, I think this season exposed
how how little range she has as an actor.
Unfortunately, unfortunately for her because she is like 21 years
old and it is a superstar, but she's also a millionaire.
So I don't really, I don't really give a shit.
She's like that in this season. And also we got to see her in
what was Enola Holmes like? Also wasn't a great performance.
She's in a lot of Netflix films that I haven't seen at this
point. Yeah, but I saw Enola.
That was like the only one but 11 in her and to her credit, is
written as emotionally limited as you said, kind of symbolic
more than a person. And that leaves a little room
for any kind of like nuance or range.
However, this season 11, even though they they were flattened,
it felt like she couldn't she just could not emote.
She couldn't emote. There was like no emotion.
Her performance, it was very strange and I don't want to
really comment too much on like the stuff I've seen online about
like the procedures or filler. Clearly like something happened
mid season where her face is a little bit more puffy and it's
hard for her to emote. And so it's not really what I'm
commenting on. And I'm aware also of I can't
imagine what it's like to be a young girl in Hollywood being a
superstar and like, being associated with Drake as a 15
year old, which is fucking weird.
But like, I can't. I just don't know what her life
was probably like as a teenager. So we're not going to comment on
like, the beauty standards of Millie Bobby Brown.
But it was a really bad performance this season.
And I think it it showed and how much the show focused on Holly
and got away from 11. And Holly, the actress who plays
her, I don't have her name here, but she did a pretty good job.
But she felt kind of like a younger Millie Bobby Brown, for
good and bad. Yeah, I think, I mean, I, I
totally agree. I, I think it's tough because
this show cast, you know, the child actors when they were kids
and they were, you know, looking at like probably who has
chemistry, like with friendship among these kids and who can
stand out or like who, because she does do a really great job,
like as a child actor just emoting this like concern for
her friends, confusion around like, what's the thing?
Friends don't lie. Like learning different right
aspects of, of the, the world outside of Hawkins Lab.
And so like, that is the, the baseline of like where they're
casting these kids and then are obviously keeping them for the
remainder of the show that they didn't even know was going to
blow up. I will say that I think the best
actor of the kids, like the group is Max, right?
And that's because I think she was cast at a later time where
they could really actually see her acting chops, right.
But it's really interesting this like group of kids.
Now that Netflix feels like Disney.
I don't know if there are any like Disney original shows
anymore that are popular. I have no idea.
I have no idea, but it feels like these are like this
generation's Disney stars, right?
Like. Like the Zendaya's.
Yeah. So that's that's interesting.
But for our generation, like the child buffs.
Jennifer Lawrence. Yeah, Yeah.
Well. Jennifer Lawrence wasn't, well,
I meant like I thought you're going more in the YA franchise
stuff like versus Stewart, Robert Pattinson.
Yeah, Yeah, yeah. That's also.
Logan Lehrman. Yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah. But yeah, but so that was like
interesting to to to think about because we have seen these like
kids grow up and you have also a relationship to or you're able
to see, I guess because I'm not as plugged in either.
But I've seen, you know, the interviews of the actors and
they're kind of it's like seeing the Harry Potter press run too,
right? They're kind of like fusing with
their characters, but you're able to see the difference in
their real personality versus their performance.
And so like, that also comes into watching the show when it's
underwritten. And then 11 only has so much to
do. That's.
True I guess like it's hard to disconnect the Millie Bobby
Brown from 11 when she doesn't have a lot of character in
season 5 So it's not really. But in fairness to the
criticism, she does look like she's doing the Zoolander face
for like half the. Season.
It's definitely blue steel. OK, so Lucas and Max, right I.
Very sweet. Yeah, I love their relationship
the most next to Nancy. I it would have been Nancy and
Jonathan if not for season 5 because they totally messed up
their relationship. But I think that Lucas and Max
are like the strongest relationship in the show.
They go through the best kind of Arc where, you know, Mad Max,
the excellent introduction to her beating all the the the
party right in their arcade game, finding out who is Mad Max
Max being introduced as this character who's like, well, I
don't want to be in your party anyway.
Like, why do you think I want to be in your party?
But she is actually really searching for a connection
because she has like an basically abusive stepbrother,
right? And an absent mother and and
stepfather figure who'd also now then we learned the stepfather
has abused Bill Billy from probably a young age.
So living in a really like tumultuous like household, even
though she like seems to have this like nice home with like
mom, dad, brother. Sort of, yeah.
Well, I just mean like that compared to like her and her mom
then like going to like live in the trailer park and she gets
like very depressed, right? And she feels like isolated from
the group. So yeah.
And then also then is like dealing with how her mom is, is
emotionally right? Like even though we don't really
meet her mom, but that's the kind of like the the background
of her talking to the counselor. She's like cleaning up after her
at night time after work. Yeah, so.
So anyway, but Max is a really great character, I think, and I
love like the it's fine, like funny, cute, the Dustin Lucas
like being in love with Max, but especially like Lucas and Max's
relationship as they grow throughout the the seasons of
them like finding out that they kind of like like each other,
like the I think that's like the really sweet coming of age
moment of them kind of like recognizing that they feel like
a friendship with each other, but also a connection with each
other and admire and respect each other as like kids.
Like that's really cute. But then also their their arc of
like Lucas wanting to maybe like be.
In the cool, you know, quote UN quote group like become a part
of like the athlete jock crowd on the basketball team.
But then and it's a really sad scene too, 'cause he's deep into
where he tells Gaytan, who's his name?
Dustin, Gavin. Dustin.
Why do I always say Gavin? Gaytan Matarazzo.
OK. Yeah, Dustin and Mike, he's
like, I don't want to be bullied anymore.
Like I'm sick of being bullied. This is why I'm doing this
'cause they're like, come to hell fire club.
And that's when we get awesome like the Erica, you know, Lady
Applejack like interaction, which is amazing.
But regardless, that Max being like depressed, being someone
who could be a target for Vecna and then Lucas like not knowing,
which feels like a realistic thing in this like coming of age
story as they get older, not knowing totally had like
emotionally communicate with Max, but he wants to be there
for her and is confused about what's going on.
It feels like the forces are like bigger than him and he
doesn't really have like the the tools to to navigate that as
they're both like, you know, growing up.
And I I think that really works. And especially then when
obviously Max is being taken by by Vecna and he's like, I'm
right here. Like, you know, that emotional
performance from from Lucas, like is so good.
Caleb McLaughlin is great as Lucas.
They really fucked up his haircut this season.
I can't believe whatever that wig is that they put on him.
I'm so sorry, but what I was going to say.
I I love his chemistry with with Sadie Sank, who's wonderful.
I love how Caleb plays into Lucas as if he just kind of like
in this way, he can't even express just really respect
strong woman. It's like a big part of his like
he hates, loves his sister, but it's like one of the strongest
young girls in the show. And then also has like a very
like up and down relationship with Max where he really funnily
tells Mike in his basement. He's like, I have tried to get
back together with Max five times and I've succeeded every
time. He says it much better and
differently. But one big criticism I have
about this show is never meeting the Sinclair parents were long
enough. We've met and know enough of at
least one of the parents of every one of the kids, if that
makes sense, except Lucas's parent.
And it's definitely not an accident that that's because
he's basically the only black character or main character in
the show. And I'm saying that I, I, it's a
big criticism, not just because of the racial elements,
obviously, but like, because Lucas obviously was raised by a
powerful, strong woman to connect that much with Erica,
who obviously was also raised by a very powerful, strong woman
and father. But for Lucas to be this
interested and invested in Max, who's like this independent,
like free will badass, like he had to be around woman in his
life who were like that, to see that in Max at a young age.
So it's a really big missed opportunity to not know the
Missus Sinclair character, even though we've seen them a few
times. Yeah, we've seen all the
parents, especially when we are in, I think season 4.
And we have the great kind of like cult moment of, of Jason,
the blonde jock who was Chrissy's boyfriend, being like
going to the town hall, saying we need to get the Hellfire
Club. They are a cult and turning the
town into their own cult to like kind of create this militia that
goes searching for Eddie, right. So and in that moment, we have a
great emotional sequence that we really haven't gotten before of
the parents, like making eye contact with each other of like,
these are like sweet kids who like care about people.
And they are being villainized because they they aren't these
like jock figures or, or, you know, conforming in high school.
And so that was a really great moment.
And then all the like, parents together trying to keep the kids
in the house to figure out like where Eddie is or where, you
know, the different like, characters are.
And then the kids going off to, you know, do the whole light
bright situation, which is great.
Like, that was good. And I think, you know, there's
an argument for the idea just in general with the parents of like
them kind of being the peanuts parents.
Like, why aren't like, you know, the the kids having to figure
things out on their own and strengthen the story.
But I mean, you're completely right.
And that we meet Misses Wheeler. We know we.
Know the Wheeler's bell? We know Dustin's mom pretty
well. We know conflict from Max's
parents because of the we. Meet her extended family at
least like we meet some of her family.
Max. Yeah, like Billy.
Oh yeah, I meant we know yeah, her the dynamic of the parents
at least because of how Billy the factors into this.
But we literally do not get the Sinclair parent like I think
there is. One, and obviously we know will.
But like, it's, it's such a, yeah, you're right.
It's such a missed opportunity, especially because Erica is such
a fun character and is obviously like, so like strong and direct,
like Max. So yeah.
And, and to go back to the Netflix point of it all, this is
going to be this was already a problem in Hollywood, but it's
going to be more of a problem with streaming as demographics
show who is watching shows and movies.
Shows and movies will then literally start to represent
those demographics. And so if Netflix finds that
their next Stranger Things has, you know, 10% of its audiences,
you know, people of colour, they will not put those characters in
the show. Like, that's how streaming is
going to work. There's not going to be some
kind of like bored on Netflix being like, well, we should make
this more inclusive. So it's important to identify
these things before it gets too late, even though I think we're
kind of already there, which. Is like why I like delightful
Derek, but it's also. Yeah, it felt unnecessary at the
same time. Also want to shout out Caleb
McLaughlin for being having one of the great cries on TV that
I've ever seen at the end of season 4 when he loses Max or he
thinks he loses Max and sort of does.
And then when she comes back and they're both crying and they
have that moment together, which is a really beautiful moment for
getting through the after talking to Holly for 25 minutes
in the fucking Vecna world, going through the portal and
coming back to Lucas. OK.
Anything else to say about Dustin or did we already cover?
That no, I I will say when Max came back like you were just
talking about, I cried. Yeah.
Oh, I did too. Yeah, But it did feel like, you
know, again, to the point of Season 5 where Max and Holly,
you know, Max is obviously trying to tell Holly, like, and
help her, you know, find a portal back.
But Max's portal's open. And last time it got shut
because she couldn't make it quick enough.
But they're just talking for like 10 minutes.
This show feels this season felt simultaneously rushed with also
without urgency, which is very strange.
Yeah, like conflicting feelings about the whole season.
I did like the whole like Holly the brave or whatever, you know,
Mike giving Holly that figurine, very cute.
That was a really sweet, like a brother sister moment.
And also the the Mr. What's it great mystery at the beginning,
really creepy. Yeah.
Like the collecting part of the season.
Yeah, was. Wild.
Yeah, I did like the first 4 episodes.
For anyone who gets motion sickness from like, spinning
rides, I have a bone to pick with the Duffer Brothers this
season of putting us on whatever that thing is called the What is
that thing called the. Wheel thing, yeah.
Yeah, yeah. What is that on that play?
Do they even have those on playgrounds?
So that I don't know anything. The spinny thing in the
playground, Too much of that swinging, too much motion shit.
Merry go round. Yeah.
Anything about Dustin? Are we good with Dustin?
We already talked enough about. Dustin, I think we talked enough
about Dustin. I've really.
I have loved Excellent. Yeah, I have loved.
I think he, you're right, is the best actor of or one of the best
actors. Of the four boys.
And I think though, that's a lot
of credit to having scenes with Joe Keery.
I I think it was a really good idea, especially in the mall
season, to put Dustin with Steve and Robin and Erica.
Like I loved going back to that segment of the story to the
point where I was like, I don't even really like want to be with
the core as much anymore. Like, I loved that group.
And so I think, you know, having Dustin and, and Steve taking him
at like under his wing was a really big strength of the the
series that ended up like really working out, deepening his
character and making him feel like he had his own storyline
with Steve, but was still connected to the party.
OK, so let's end the Steve conversation then.
Do you think Steve should have died?
Because that was a big thing going.
You die, I die, right? We thought for sure at least
Steve and Dustin would be peril together.
Instead they're just using their knives to cut the aliens.
Reference of the Mind Flayer. Yeah, the Mind Flayer.
They do a fake out with Steve and Hopper this season.
The Hopper thing is just complete bullshit.
I can't believe they fucking did.
That they should have killed Hopper I think.
Three seasons ago, yeah, it made a lot of sense.
Or two seasons ago, Steve sacrificing himself this season
would have absolutely made sense.
And I, and there are some people like, who think death does not
mean stakes in storytelling. I think that's like, I don't
know, pretentious, like elitist, like film criticism of people
being like, there's other ways to create stakes in
storytelling. Death means everything, OK.
If characters die, it means something as long as we know the
characters, right? Death at the beginning of
stories doesn't really mean anything at the end of stories.
It actually means everything. And for Steve, he wants those 6
little Nuggets. He's got those two assholes
making fun of him privately, and then it's turned to him and he
understands that Nancy told fucking Jonathan about his six
Nuggets. Which do I think it's weird to
like, want six kids as a man? That would be very strange to
put on another woman. Absolutely.
You know, in Steve's case, and for him to call them Nuggets,
all that stuff, whatever. You could do that too, but still
do Do families need 6 kids? I don't know, right?
But like, regardless, it's cute. Nancy turns into a joke.
Jonathan brings it up to him. The point of the six Nuggets is
that he has 6 Nuggets. He's been protecting the four
boys, the Core 411 and Max. Those are the six kids.
And so sacrificing himself in a way that was meaningful for
those six kids would have actually made his redemption arc
as a character and everything that he it was kind of an
asshole about and kind of part of the cool kids and feeling
regret about that. And he sort of feels like
stunted as a as a grown man at this point in the show, in the
story of the show, because he feels like he never left that
moment of what he did to enable his shitty friends to write
Nancy Wheeler's a slut or whatever on the movie theater
thing. And he feels like he's still
living in that moment as a character.
Yeah, he still feels like a lot of guilt.
And so for him to like pass on in a meaningful way, I think
would have been really impactful.
I can't believe they didn't do it.
I can't believe it. I thought for sure when they
said that if you die, I die. Which another Titanic kind of
like thing next to the Nancy and Jonathan Titanic scene.
Killing Dustin would have been a lot though.
Yeah, I thought it would have been like they would bring that
back. Like, it just made sense, right?
Where Steve was about to die, Dustin, like, goes to save him
and Steve's like, don't you know, like something like that,
right. Yeah, I think it would have made
sense to have Steve die. It was really annoying to have
the Hopper fake out. I guess Jonathan save Steve,
which was nice, but it made more sense for Dustin to save Steve
at at the whole point is that these kids are becoming adults,
which is what Steve is reckoning with.
He's not like coaching these kids anymore, right?
Like he's going to coach kids, obviously.
Like that's the point of his character arc is that he's got
to accept that Dustin's like becoming an adult now.
Yeah, it's it's. Just so I think it's poorly
handled. I mean, it's obviously so they
can have Steve if there's any future.
That's what it is, right? Yeah.
I didn't want to think that's what it was.
That's what it. Is but I think, you know, Steve
like to give the Duffers credit like the best character he is in
the show. I think.
I mean, maybe we're biased on this.
I just love Joe Kiri. Well, he makes every scene he's
in pop and you just like want to stay in that scene.
I loved him and Chips Ahoy loved his relationship with Robin
scoops Ahoy Chips away is a is a cookie brand, but I love him
when he is like realizing that he's in love with Robin for the
same reasons. He was kind of in love with
Nancy and and screwed it up and and he was like, this is like
someone who just like feels like they're you know, they know
themselves. And then, you know, we had the
like moment where Will's like, wait, Robin, you told Steve of
all people, like the jock that you know, because Will and Steve
haven't really interacted that much.
But so it was interesting to see like Will's perception of like
what the high school Steve is too.
And so anyway, so like the the relationship between Steve and
Robin, which was totally not like furthered in.
This season. So sad.
Yeah, to see. Anyway, So yeah, love Steve, one
of the best characters. Who else do you?
Nancy shout out Nancy this season.
Natalie Dyer coming in as Ellen Ripley this season being a
badass. I just loved every moment where
she's like, let me go, like do this.
Like let's just run into the upside down.
Like let's not waste time. Joyce.
Did you know was she like immature with the Barb hole
situation? Yes.
Her friend died. She wanted to get drunk for a
few nights, like leave her alone because Jesus.
But she was a kid. And she felt regret, like she
felt like she, like, I don't know, whatever, you know?
What I always forget about the guy who I can never remember his
name, but he is on the whole exhibition, the whole trip,
right? To go save Hopper with Joyce and
they meet like Yuri and everything.
That guy was originally the detective that Barb's family
hires, right? To investigate her death.
I always forget that that's his character's origin.
Yeah, it's Marie. Yeah, Yeah, Marie Bauman.
He doesn't even get an end to his character because they blow
up the thing. But he's he doesn't die.
We don't see him and. Also incredibly disrespectful to
Mr. Clark at the end there. They really kept that joke going
quite a quite a long time. Anything about Joyce Wynona
feels like a farewell to Winona in some ways.
I'm sure she'll keep acting obviously, but this feels like a
an interesting almost like enter her career as like a Hollywood
superstar because I'm sure she can do like indie projects now.
She's probably a multi millionaire.
Yeah, it was just, yeah. I mean, I love Winona it.
That's all I can really say. I think she was like a great
mother figure and kind of like role model for Will.
And she did a really good job, like balancing a lot of the
tensions of wanting to keep her kids safe, but understanding
that there are like larger things at stake too.
And so, like, putting him in danger was kind of like
necessary. And towards the end, I think
that, you know, Will and her had a good arc together of like the
idea of her trusting him to do that, kind of like letting him
go and grow up a little bit, right?
Because she was like she also was traumatized from losing a
kid. But I mean, we can't understate
the first season was awesome. Like her, her performance, which
really there was a lot of scenes going back to her just freaking
out and like, you know what, the other character saw her losing
her mind, putting lights up. She's like, that is not my son.
I don't know what that is in there.
That was all great. Yeah, and, and like going around
the house finding Will on the wall, you know, like she just
did such a good job. Yeah, she really was incredible
in Season 1. I don't know how the the TV show
words worked out that year, but hopefully she wants something.
Also loved her and Mr. Clark team up when the magnets started
dropping. Yeah, love the Mr. Clark shout
outs, other characters that we skipped over.
I mean, we I think we talked enough about Hopper.
Love him is like the Magnum Pi of the show, the Indiana Jones
of the show. Definitely should have died
before going to Russia. Didn't make any sense to bring
him back. Erica's great Mr. Clark, great
Susie. Suzie shout out you love Suzie
edition a never ending story like she was Justin.
Yeah, and and Suzie sing along was one of the peak moments of
Stranger Things with the the mall.
And then Lucas and Max making fun of him in the last episode
and giving them the finger. Argyle was come from the show
which is bullshit. He should have been in the
season. Murray was fine.
Ted Wheeler, nobody remembers, but Ted actually is still in the
hospital right now. Is he?
No. No one's checking on deck, No.
One cares, you got his ass rocked and nobody cared.
Wait, can I ask you a question? Wait, hold, wait one second,
because there are a couple more characters.
OK, well, I'll let you go through the characters, but my
question is related to this. OK, go ahead.
Who who is the best like addition to Stranger Things
seasons? Like who's the best additional
character outside of the core? So I guess you can go through
the the last couple characters because you have to hit Billy
right here. There, there are three
characters. Yeah, it's it's either Robin,
Billy or Eddie. Yeah, OK.
Do you want to finish going through them and then we'll like
rank them? It's one of those 3 Sure we can
do that. I want to shout out Neil Nell
Fisher as Holly because I did think she was pretty good in
moments, but when that one boy called her a bitch?
Oh my God, that was an insane. And then her friends start
choking her out with her own necklace.
Yeah, I did realize I was connected more to Holly than I
thought. Because I must punch my Tvi was
like, I'm going to fight these kids.
They jumped her wild. In Henry's house, that's like
the. Amount of just like bitches that
are thrown out in this season from little boys.
But that like different the way he.
Women. Was said bitch.
The way he said it was very upsetting.
Yeah I was like what who is this?
I was like who are you? You extra like get out of here.
I don't even know your name actually.
The kid did a good job Sorry. And then my extra credit goes to
this actor we've not talked about.
We even said their name, I don't think, but Jamie Campbell Bauer.
Who plays? Henry and Vecna had the hardest
job and he's a double franchise Lord because he plays one of the
Valtorian Twilight. And I thought there.
Was going to be a twilight moment in this show where we had
a fake out, you know, group of deaths.
Right, especially with eight like?
Which I guess sort of happens if you believe in the middle of
Bobby Brown is 11 still being alive.
And then my last, you know, person I want to bring up is
Jake Connelly as Derek. We already talked about Derek,
but there are two moments I want to bring up that really made me
fall in love with Derek. The one moment where he goes
into the forest to tell Holly that he knew that she knew.
Henry was full of shit, so he knew to come to see her.
That really made me. Like, well, she knew he was full
of shit and I was like, yeah, it's so great.
And also when he was in the van going in the upside down with
the crew and he's like delightful Derek and he's
smiling and he sees Finn and they make eye contact and he
waves like jollily at like. Yeah, 'cause he says Mike's my
best. Friend, right?
And then Finn, as Mike like, turns to the side, 'cause he
thinks he's looking at somebody else and looks back at him.
And he does like the Joe Curie Steve thing where he's like,
hey, yeah, he wasn't that something Steve did.
I think Steve did give yeah, like a three finger wave kind of
yeah at 1:00. So love Jake Connelly as Derek.
Also, the whole sequence of trying to get the kids out of
the military base was a really great, like, fun trying to, you
know, rescue the children who have been contacted by Mr.
What's it? What was her name?
Ashley Green. Was it Ashley?
He was like, that girl's a snitch.
She was like Ashley whatever is a snitch.
Yeah, that, yeah, that was really fun.
It was really like a fun, suspenseful, in the Stranger
Things spirit, suspense of like trying to get the the kids out.
And then Mike and Will trying to stop it from flooding and they
kept going. Mr. Watson, are you here for Mr.
Watson? Are you here for Mr. Watson and
the one little boy who pops his head out and you see his eyes
really quickly in the edit, so it goes under.
That was really funny. I'm glad you brought that up.
That was really well shot and edited, so there were moments.
And also there was the Home Alone sequence of the.
These are all in the beginning. That's a great moment too.
The Season 2. Just had potential.
Yeah, it really did in these last set up of yeah, the, the
different like 4, you know, family members of Derek or three
other family members of Derek and Erica having like, you know,
the the a fight with her friend going over not poisoning them,
but whatever, giving them like sleep.
Pills when the little girl starts screaming when Erica
comes over with a shot. Yeah, she's a bad ass.
It's so good. And then yeah, the whole like
setting up to to try to trap the Demogorgon.
I also like later on when they like electrocute the Demogorgon
to bring the hive power to will. Like those things are good.
Is it the death mark kind of thing?
I guess like his will could, yeah, like he could be in line
with Voldemort if somebody of. It was it was because he's
connected to the hive mind, so they had to like flare it up
because he didn't know how to like.
Explained it well, another another one of my favorite
moments that you're now. You kind of just reminded me of
a couple of those good episodes before the season really turned
to shit. But when Steve and Jonathan and
Nancy and Dustin are in the his car and they have the satellite
on the car and they have to drive through the hole to the
upside down and they're like, don't do it, Steve.
We're going to crash into like the corn thing and then Nancy's
like floor it and he like immediately does.
Does it? I love how much he loves Nancy.
He like, listens to her no matter what.
I love that from Steve. Yeah, he tells her.
OK, So what were would you want to do?
I wanted to, well, I wanted to say like the best like
characters that are introduced in the season.
And I don't think like Erica would obviously be in this, but
I feel like she has become like a core character where she
doesn't count totally. So don't count the kids then.
Yeah, so maybe don't count the kids, but who are The Who are
the top like new characters that are introduced in the season?
Because I would argue like Holly was that for the season, but it
didn't really work because we didn't have an emotional
connection to her. It was the last season.
So that also was like working against it.
And she got more, a lot more screen time than the main
characters. So like there was tension there.
But for the other seasons for me, I think this is in I'll I'll
order them after. But definitely Billy.
Billy. Definitely Eddie.
Eddie. And I I have a case for Alexi.
That's a good I think. There's because when he died at
the carnival, it is tragic. The way he dies too, yeah, yeah.
And Robin getting shot by the Terminator.
The whole Terminator plot was also annoying.
And Robin, but I I guess she's also like a member of the group
now too. But you don't like Murray?
I like Murray, he just gets kind of annoying, like especially in
the season. What about Paul Reiser as Sam
Owens, the doctor? The one he's good.
Yeah. He's pretty good.
What about Bob, Bob, Bob from Sean?
Sean Astin. Astin our own Sam Wise, Rudy,
he's good. He gives bad advice to Will.
He really does. He's he's like when I was sick,
I used to play all these puzzles and games.
I was like, what like, And also I love when he I, I do love.
He was a great addition. I loved when he like came in and
was comforting to Winona, but also like solved the the whole
map of Hawkins. He was like, this is a map, you
know? That was really fun.
Yeah, we have that later on. Max is like drawing her dreams
and Nancy puts together the whole House of ECNA.
And I guess you have Matthew Modine as Doctor Brenner, but I
don't think Papa counts. Does Papa count?
Yeah, there are a lot of men who are introduced, I'm realizing
now. Well, Linda Hamilton was the new
villain this season, but she literally could have not been in
the show. It would have been exactly the
same. She's from the Terminator
movies. Doctor K.
Yeah, it was. She was a fun addition, like in
terms of the lore, but. And I guess 8 doesn't count
because she's a kid. In this scenario, you're.
Playing and also they totally like botched her storyline and
like. When they brought her back, I
was like, oh. That's.
A you're doing this. So then you're going to kill her
in one episode, I would assume. And then they took four more
episodes to do that. As soon as she started calling
11 sister, I was out. OK, I'm going to say.
I think Eddie's first for. Me, I think Eddie's number one.
And it's a close second with Billy.
Interesting. I was going to say it's it's
going to be Billy or Robin. Oh, I didn't know I was counting
Robin because she's in the core group.
Interesting. Because, OK, well then we can,
we can include I think Erica and Robin.
Well, then I think it doesn't matter, though.
We agree that the answer is Eddie, right?
Why is it Eddie? OK, it's Eddie because Joseph
Quinn #1 is like the main breakout star from this, right?
Like he from Stranger Things. He is an amazing actor.
He's legitimately a star now. Yeah, like this is especially
evident in A Quiet Place part one where we see like him and
Lupita Nyongo, who is like an excellent emotional actor.
Him being able to hold his own with her was really like,
surprising. Didn't get a lot to do as Johnny
Storm, but like the strong, one of the strongest parts of that
movie. And then what else was he?
In and Gladiator 2, Denzel was. Acting.
Denzel acted everybody off screen.
Everyone. Including Paul Meskel, but as
soon as he. What's the actor's name?
Who plays Eddie Joseph Quinn as soon as he meets Joseph Quinn as
his theatrical emperor. Their energies were close to
being matched, which is a wild. There was at least some.
Yeah, there was something there. I'm not saying he's Denzel
Washington, obviously, but I was like, holy shit, he's really
acting with Denzel right now. Yeah, it was a little bit of
like training day vibes where I'm like Ethan Hawke, you're
almost there. OK, Yeah, I think it's Eddie.
Yeah, then I think it's either Erica or Billy.
Yeah, I would say Billy #2 I think the Dacre, Dacre
Montgomery, I think that's how you say his first name.
But Montgomery, the actor who plays Billy, is just really
good. I mean, he's just like a yeah,
like a fire, like he is there burning bright.
Steve, they've been talking about.
Scariest shit like. Yeah, he's really.
Good plays a really well like I'm scared for Max, you know, in
that that sequence. I also feel like oh wow, he's
really tortured. Did I need the whole flashback
of mom? No, but loved him in the sauna
like. It was a it was a weird
redemption arc for his character, considering this is
the only character that the show acknowledges is racist.
But it's also the 80s in Indiana, so obviously there's
like more racism going on. It's Indiana and at this time
period, but they're putting it all on Billy's character, which
is strange. Yeah, another kind of like what
we were talking about earlier, example of how they have made
stranger things like this like a political.
I can't believe that. Project, yeah and yeah.
Even though emotionally and morally it's about a lot of
things. Yeah, OK.
I think we. Did miss we did miss Vicki but I
was really hard For me I didn't watch the Anne with an E
franchise on Netflix but it was really hard not to see.
Like a Pippi Long stocking character.
Sure, connect her with that image.
Even though I like her and Robin's relationship and I like
the I like the start of the relationship too, where Robin's
like doesn't know how to talk to her while they're playing in
band and says like stupid things and looks at Steve.
I think strong honorable mention goes to Erica, Argyle and Derek.
Those three as like great teenage characters or whatever
preteen characters for Derek and Erica.
OK epilogue. Any thoughts to end this episode
because it's kind of the final 20 minutes we'll ever get a
stranger Things where they kind of that's true.
I think we I'm. Sure we'll do deep dives on like
the Patreon one day of the the seasons.
So that's why I'm I'm not stressed about like getting
everything in here We. Have a couple things that
happen. Yeah, there's a graduation.
Well, that's the strongest thing.
OK, let's just really quickly the the meet up between oh, I
guess that's after graduation, right is.
The D&D thing's after graduation.
No, not the D&D thing. The meet up between Robin, the
older kids, Steve, Jonathan. It has to be after but that
night. You're right there, Yeah.
And. 4 characters have never hung out together.
So. We're like we've had all these
memories together. There is one thing I miss about
this place. It was, you know, the the cut
where it really is, just like what is going on is when Robin
they like laugh and and then Robin turns to Nancy is like
Nancy, what about you? Like there was just a moment
where it was just hold so forced and weirdly cut together.
I enjoyed watching you do that live.
Oh, I acted. What about you to the side of
the wall? And focusing in on like, you
know, force laughs from my hawk, you know, doing her best, but
just awkward. And so, yeah, all of that felt
strange. Didn't.
She voice anxiety and inside out too.
She brought a little bit of that this season which I did not
enjoy. I like I like the anxiety voice
on inside. Too.
I just met the performance. It was kind of giving me
anxiety. Fair enough.
Then we have Dustin's speech. Yeah, which?
I appreciate that he did the thing that Eddie wanted and that
he wanted to graduate, giving the middle finger to the
principal because I'm sure there's some back story there we
don't know about. Yeah, I'm, I thought about that
too, when Eddie is like, I'm going to like cross the stage,
his whole like amazing Eddie monologue when we first meet the
character in the cafeteria. So I I thought that was
connected, especially when we have the Hellfire T-shirt.
But one, it felt weird because we've never really met the
principal. And so it just felt strange
because it was like, I have no relationship to this person.
You're like giving the finger and also like the these kids are
interested in school, right? Like the the strength of
stranger things. That was like cool was that they
connected with Mr. Clark, right? And not that every single
educator has to be like this, like perfect like mentor in the
kids lives, but it just felt like a weird shift.
Also, they let Max graduate and she certainly did not have the
credits. She was in a coma for a year and
a half. So some guidance counselor
somewhere was doing some finagling behind the scenes, let
me tell you. And then but then also the cut
from to each one of the characters when the speech
didn't feel like this speech felt fine, but out of in a
different movie, in a different like coming of age graduation
movie that didn't feel exactly like in line with what the
stranger things kids have always like preached it.
It like, yes, it had like some pandemic nods of like, you know,
the everything happening with like quarantine and Hawkins
like. So maybe that was like for that
particular generation who went through high school during that
time. But regardless, it felt just
like a weird kind of like opportunity to speak to the
themes of like feeling like an outsider, kind of like going in
a little bit on that more. Instead, it felt like this very
weird staged, like let's give the principal the middle finger,
which was more Eddie's storyline, not Dustin's.
And then cut to all the characters being like this fake
shock with a little bit of a lag on cutting to the different
characters, which felt just really awkward.
Again, like an example of the cringe and and so.
And then the the hot girl of the school, I guess that comes up to
Dustin. He's like, do you want to come
to a party? And he was like, I was doing
like a John Hughes thing. I was like, I don't.
This doesn't feel, yeah, natural to these characters.
Yeah. You know, I did like, Will being
like, can we go? Because poor Will, like, missed
so many years of his childhood. He's like, let's please, can we
please let me go in the epilogue?
I the so graduation fine, I guess.
But yeah, the epilogue worked. The D&D game, Really.
Worked well. That was the best part of it.
There were other things that like we saw small moments like
Hopper proposing to Joyce, which was sweet, but you can just just
seen that coming. They're going to move to
Montauk. It was really nice when he was
like, let's like, do this big tonight because you raised, like
two kids and you had a yeah. It was really hard.
Like, you did a lot. Yeah.
Giving Joyce for flowers. Yeah, it was nice.
And then we have the D&D game again, Which worked.
It was like, I, I thought it was emotional for something that
could have felt weirdly forced, like the graduation, because
they're playing DND and kind of like going back to the start of
this whole series when they were kids.
But they defeat Mike in the campaign with an L figure,
right? And then Max is like, wait, we
just like win or I forget exactly what happens, right?
She's realizing what every person who doesn't play D&D does
for the first time playing D&D, and which I've not played but
I've learned through my years teaching from other kids
playing, is that you can't win. You can't win.
It's not really winning. You just finished the story,
which counts as winning, but it's not if you don't.
If you can't finish the person's story, technically you lose, but
you still won because it's an experience with your friends.
I got you, OK? It's the journey that counts.
As far as I know, nobody come for us in the comments, Yeah.
We don't. Yeah, we don't know and we
don't. I would love to have a one star
review on this podcast. That they don't, they don't know
anything about DND, which I think you know, DND sounds fun,
yeah. I think it does.
Yeah, it's it honestly, I so there's like a game store that
us and some friends went into and had a lot of fun and but
there are a lot of DND games going on.
And I kind of realized like how stressful it must be to be the
person who's planning the campaign, if that's what you
call it, the story. It's like hosting people at your
house, but you have to make sure that the story is interesting.
You basically write fantasy fanfic and then you plan
everybody's characters for them. I mean, that's sounds wild
anyway, so how are? There's a lot of unused
storylines or subplots that you create that you use in future
books that you do or future. Whatever you call them, but I
loved all their cute little like, you know, finders that
they each had, like their name on them.
Cute retconic. I don't think that ever.
Exists saying goodbye to like their youth and and going up the
door like closing and ending on the door like that all really
worked for me. Very Toy Story Story.
By the way, I'm not crying. Sorry.
I just said something. You're crying in my throat.
You're crying. It's OK.
But that really worked for me when we closed out on the door.
What minute? Hour 54 OK.
We're almost done. We're almost done.
So but then Mike has a really good, like, beautiful moment of
telling us, like where everyone ends up and, you know, will
ultimately like ending with Will, who, you're right, is kind
of like the main character here, like finding acceptance and like
living his life. And then Mike is kind of a
writer. We learn.
I think, yeah, I think the idea is that he, you know, told
stories through D&D and now he's mythologized Elle and he's going
to tell stories as a Stephen King like writer.
OK. And so let's just have the the
conversation here. Is going to tell some fucked up
Vecna stories, some real the clown.
Story for sure. Is Ella live?
No. I think she is.
No, I I saw this online. I don't think people are getting
the end of the show. Or I just don't get it.
Maybe I'm too confident about my reading of it.
I thought it was pretty obvious that like he just, he was
playing D&D and he continued the story and he gave them a way to
cope with the loss of Elle. He had just talked to Hopper.
If you thought Elle was alive, you wouldn't be in front of
where she died. And Hopper needing to come to
give him advice to be like this is how you have to move on.
If you don't do this, you're. Going to be like me, miss her,
you know? I guess so.
He was, I think he was. Felt you.
Can still like mourn her even though he thinks she's gone.
You're saying Mike Wheeler, being Mike Wheeler would have
gone to like look for her or had some?
Yeah, he definitely would not be just doing it as a throw away.
Let me tell you guys that I actually think L's in Ireland,
like, you know what I mean? You know what I'm saying?
Yeah. Even the way they show her come
up that Cliff and look at that like town, it felt so Lord of
the Rings fantasy. Storybook.
You know, I didn't really consider the idea that like Mike
Wheeler as a character would, if he really did truly believe that
with the ending, wouldn't be like him closing the door and
like smiling down on the basement on the kind of like,
you know, coming to peace with reality, which is more so, I
guess in favor of your point. And he would probably try to go
like, look for her or something like that.
Obviously you can't do that because then it's just like
another season, but. A a much sadder ending which was
this is how I would have written that into Stranger Things.
Will dies the way I already explained.
Steve dies the way I already explained, L dies the way I
already explained. Mike writes the story at the end
and the story of these like 3 sacrificial characters in his
life. The father figure, the brother
figure and the partner, which is beautiful.
Yeah. And it didn't end that way.
And instead, everybody's alive, and maybe even Elle's fucking
alive and. Then we have like, kind of
pringy Eggo waffles. Yeah, moments of of like tying
up the story don't even feel overly sentimental.
You don't think that would have been sweeter if if those were
the three characters who died in this story?
Yeah. And I think we would have gotten
like, stronger goodbye scenes because now it feels like
everything's kind of OK. And yes, like these characters
feel like they could only understand each other.
And there's only a relationship of like the trauma that they
shared together and the experience that they shared that
that strength since they're bond.
But it feels weird to have them just like talking on a rooftop
for the older kids. The DND thing works because I
actually believe in the relationship between all the the
core party. But yeah, I mean, I obviously
think that people should have died.
And also then we can have more like we can have other goodbyes
between like Erica, right, for example, and other characters.
So I think. It would be more screen time
with everybody else. Yeah, absolutely.
OK, that's a stranger. That was the extra cards of
Stranger Things season 5 and the show as a whole.
Because they're going to do something in the future.
Well, I'm not discounting that. You're probably right there real
quick. I'm going to do my fast ranking
of this show of its season. It's been a 2 hour podcast, was
the last time we're going to talk about Stranger Things for
probably years. Number one Season 1.
Number one is season 1, yes. Season 1 is lightning in a
bottle. It's a perfect mix of genre and
tone. Everything else you already
said, communicating through Christmas lights, the bikes in
the rain, the iconography, it's awesome.
It's beautiful. Yeah, I mean, you just say like
the also the first like opening sequence right of of season 1
where we have like the DND game or not just sequence.
I mean like the whole episode, right.
We have the iconic bikes like you're talking about and then
also Will goes missing, right, that whole like mystery and
learning with upside down. Great stuff.
And then 11 sacrifice at the end.
Yeah, the second. Season is Season 4.
Agreed, I like going back and forth like this.
Agreed. Why Season 4?
Season 4 is a horror movie made into a franchise.
It's very Freddy Krueger like you said.
Becna has a great clock ticking theme song.
Also really scary shit of the kids being lifted into the air
and their limbs being broken and their eyes being, you know,
pulled out of their sockets. Like gory shit that the first
season actually did have and I didn't remember.
But you don't need to make it overly like we're not asking for
Saw or anything, but a campy gore that really works in adding
stakes to the world. Somehow didn't feel exploitative
of killing kids on screen. Yes.
I don't know why it felt earned. And also we have like a treasure
map, you know, situation of looking for the opening gates
where we find out that their gates open at all the deaths,
right? We have a a greater theme to
Vecna's killings, which is that people aren't paying attention
to the mental health of their peers, right, Which really works
for Chrissy's situation and having also the turn of like how
the town might see Eddie as an outsider, but he's just like
sweet kid who's like screaming and like what is happening to
Chrissy really cares about Chrissy to then the kid who like
blames himself for the accident to then the kid on the
basketball team, right? Who then like everyone starts
recognizing like, oh, like I didn't realize that people were
going through through things like who are just around me
every day. Like a greater theme right to
the Vecna killings. And it just looks really good.
Season 4 looks like a $200 million TV show or 400 million,
whatever the fuck the money the number is.
When they're in the upside down, Steve has like those bats eating
his body. And it's like shirts coming off
the cameras doing a 360 with everybody, everybody else coming
out from the upside down trying to kill the bats.
Like that shit looks hard. And then Max running through the
Billy, you know, the her Billy episode where she's running
through and they're playing the music, the Kate Bush song,
incredibly emotional, impactful. You had to be there kind of
moment when that show, when that episode released.
And also you have a haunted house sequence where they're all
in the. There's a legitimate argument
for Season 4 being the best season of Stranger Things.
If it were a little bit more tight.
And is that the season where we have Hopper in the prison?
I think so, yeah. No, wait, no, no.
Hopper Season 3 in in the prison Hopper in season 4 is where.
No, no, no. In season 3 we he dies at the
end we think in the mall, right? Like are the the kind of like
machine to open. See, now we're just confusing
ourselves. One's Terminator Is that season
3 that's. Season 3.
OK, so yes, he's in Russia in season 4.
Yeah. OK.
So that aside, I think because Season 1 is so tight and it is
like, really? It doesn't have bad subplots.
Yes, exactly. Like you're always moving.
There's not like a lot of exposition.
That's the reason season 1 is still the best.
But there is yes, a strong argument for the way that season
4 looks, the depth of it. The Freddy Krueger should being
super actually scary like in this and all the characters
being a little bit more adult having like the conversations
like between them. Yeah, there's a there's an
argument, but still, Season 1 is.
The best for me, and I want to be AI, want to be a hero for
just one day. What's that song they play when
they find Will's body, fake body in the water and all the kids
ride up in their bikes in Season 1 and then Joyce comes down and
Mike's like crying, like it can't be him.
They're playing that music. Nothing emotionally affects me
and Stranger Things as much as that, so that's season 1 as
well. And there's that whole like
mystery of the Hawkins Lab, like not kidnapping Hopper, but
Hopper going on his own investigation, seeing the tape,
telling his deputy is like, hey, what was happening on that
night? It was raining.
We didn't see any rain or whatever it was or something
like different about the tape, right?
And then they put him back in his house, right?
And he like, finds that his house is bugged.
Like all that stuff is really fun.
Everyone has a really great sub. Is that not season 2?
That's Season 1. I think that's season 1.
OK, yeah. So I think that's season 1.
I think the third best season is season 3.
That's the mall. That's the mall.
I agree. It just looks really cool, like
the visuals of them all. It's really bright, it's fun.
The Cold War paranoia stuff is good.
Billy. Obviously Hopper's death, when
it was real, that kind of mattered.
You know, he died at the end there, and he just got together
with Joyce and he's saying goodbye.
Then Joyce has to like, look at 11 outside the mall and she
identifies it. Hopper's dead.
That wrecked me. And then she reads the letter as
they move away to California. It's it's emotional.
That was like some Toy Story shit, Yeah.
Yeah, wow, Toy Story is a good comp even for Season 5.
When Mike sees all the kids come downstairs to play DND and take
their words, it feels like Toys and Toy Story 3.
Yeah. Giving them to Bonnie.
The 4th and 5th best season, so that we're ranking the bottom 2
here. What do you think?
To end the conversation, is season 5 the worst or season 2?
Season 2 and then Season 5. South season 5 is the worst, I
think so I agree. Yeah, 'cause Season 2 has its
moments of being really good at Yeah.
Season 2 is interesting with the mind player.
I really like Bob as an additional character there.
Yeah, season 2 has its moments. It definitely drags as a second
season and season. 2 is Max ability yeah.
And also we have like the Ghostbusters, the meeting Max,
and that was fun for trick or treating.
So there, yeah, there's a lot of fun things going on in in Season
2, but it's just not. Steve and Dustin have their like
their railroad talk, you know? The stand by me kind.
Of yeah, the Stand by me thing. They start becoming best friends
that season. That's really cool.
Yeah, Season 5 is the worst. That's really sad.
Oh well. Oh well.
This was a farewell to Stranger Things as a whole, So I hope you
enjoyed this conversation and this episode.
While we were negative about Season 5, like obviously we.
I thought we were pretty nice. OK, well we were critical
because we also love the show so.
Exactly. We love the show, gave us a
decade of memories that I won't forget.
And it was awesome to experience watching a show with you because
we've been together obviously longer than 10 years.
So it's cool to experience that, you know, because we never
experienced Harry Potter together.
That's true. So it's pretty cool to have this
and I know there's an animated version of the show coming out
next year. It's going to be taking place
between season 2 and season 3. That looks like a monster house.
I could give a shit. I'm going to let the kids have
that. Like I'm done.
I don't want I don't want that. I don't want the Montauk spin
off either. The Montauk, David Harbour,
Winona Ryder show where he's like a detective, like Brody.
Jaws kind. Of it's over.
I don't want it. I want the show to be over.
OK, what do we have next on the main feed?
Not sure good question. January we have 2828 years later
Part 2. Cannot wait coming out in about
a week and a half. Two weeks on Patreon.
We just covered Knives Out the whole franchise.
Good three hour episode there. So check out our Patreon for
free episodes for. An accidental 3 hour episode
where we talked about Glass Onion, right?
Wake Up Dead Man and Knives Out. Yeah, but a lot of fun.
For free members right now on Patreon, you can sign up in the
description. You get a bunch of free
episodes, but Knives Out for paid members.
And then we'll have Titanic very soon.
And then for January, we're going to be covering Rob Reiner.
Rest in peace to him and his wife, his, I think, best film,
When Harry Met Sally. And we'll talk about his
filmography on there and him as a film maker.
And they'll also will be covering About Time because
Rachel McAdams has a movie coming out the end of January,
the Sam Raimi horror film with Dylan O'Brien, my guy.
And About Time is our favorite ROM com of the 21st century.
Yeah, there's some competition. Those Silver Linings.
We just rewatched that recently and I was like damn this is.
Really. A lot in common with Harry
mentality, yeah. Yeah, All right, We'll be back.
Peace. Bye.