Hello, welcome to the Extra Credits Plus of 17 days.
Hey man, I don't want to rain on your parade, but we're not going
to last 17 hours. He has all of the great lines
and I will also be quoting him a lot today.
Yeah, I. Don't want to sound too much
like Shaggy because it is kind of like borderline action
masculine Shaggy. There is like a a kind of, it's
a similar voice work, right that that's being done here.
You're like kind of a Zoinks, right?
Of like, game over, man. I know you know a lot of that
today, so listeners, be ready for it.
Rest in peace to the great Bill Paxton.
He's probably the most underrated part of this movie.
And Private Hudson is like one of my favorite characters of the
Alien universe. What a legend.
So today we are off on another bug hunt.
Bug hunt with Xenomorphs, this time with James Cameron's
Aliens. I'm Trey.
And I'm Kelsey. So we're on the express elevator
to hell going deeper into Alien August.
Last week. We deep dive the well made but
also pretty divisive, a little derivative Alien Romulus, a
movie that is performing exceptionally well at the box
office. It looks like it's at $230
million globally right now in two weeks.
Yeah. And.
Which I'm happy about. Yeah, it definitely won't reach
the high highs of $400 million with Prometheus, but it's about
to pass Covenant box office, which is great.
It's great for the brand. It's great for Ridley Scott as a
producer who I'm convinced is making a lot of money from this
movie. And I assume he put his name on
this film and did press for it with the hopes that if it makes
money and it does, well, maybe. David again.
Yes, maybe Disney will be. That's why I'm happy we need
Disney's David this time around. So it might not be as dark or as
brutal as loving it, but I'm sure really Scott will find a
way to make it work. So Romulus, last week when we
covered that movie, we tried to take it seriously and enjoy it
for what it was. But ultimately, I think while it
was visually impressive and had some fun set pieces and Andy the
Android was a nice addition to this.
You know, the group of androids in this franchise.
I think Romulus suffered as a mostly copy and paste version of
the previous films. And we talked about how it took
IP and molded it into something pretty unoriginal and didn't do
a great job with its character writing either.
And it was kind of more focused on killing its characters than
trying to understand them first, which is not exactly what you
want to do in in these movies that are so focused on teamwork
and the and the kind of workplace drama of all these
great films. Whereas something like James
Cameron's Aliens, while it probably an unfair comparison to
the Alvarez iteration, Aliens is such a great example, probably
the most famous example of how to previous IP into something
uniquely memorable and still fairly novel.
You know, So I'm glad that we finally get to get into one of
the best movies of this franchise with Aliens, and then
next weekend with Prometheus and Covenant.
Yeah, and I'm excited to talk about Cameron's Aliens today in
particular because I realized that this is like the highest
I've ever been on this movie. Like we'll be in this
conversation, I guess. I think.
Me too, yeah. Yeah.
And I think that's because I've always watched Aliens in the
context of Ridley Scotts approach to this franchise,
right? Like we are big defenders of
Alien, of Prometheus, of Covenant.
We will talk more about that in the next coming episodes.
But I've always talked about aliens basically in comparison.
Xenomorphs next to the. Queen, you know the.
Queen being David, and we're there to protect.
He's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, we back up.
But but yeah, like, so I've always, while I've appreciated
Aliens, I think it's a really fun movie.
This is the highest I've ever been rewatching it to talk about
it in this episode because this time I was watching it more so
in comparison to Romulus, which I think has like a more similar
DNA of an action movie of characters who I don't care
about so much because they're in this particular genre.
But I think Aliens does a lot of things that are more successful
than Romulus in an action movie. Like I care about the stakes of
the set pieces. And I actually, even though I
know they're corny and kind of camp relationships between some
of the characters, I still feel that like when when one dies.
Right, there's no vast. I feel their friendship.
Relationship and anything like Romulus even though it's an
unfair comparison the two movies obviously because we've.
Had a longer. You know, relationship to the
the James Cameron film, you can just tell right away in the
writing that there's a lot more care in the character
development. Right.
And that was like my biggest, I guess criticism of Romulus is
that, you know, I know that it is doing something like a don't
breathe in space, like a haunted house movie.
And it, it did feel like I had those kind of B teen horror
characters that I maybe wasn't supposed to care as much.
And I it was more so a monster movie.
I just think that if I am going to sit through a really long
movie and really cool set pieces that are really imaginative and
I think do deserve credit, ultimately I want to care about
the characters that are going through those.
And I didn't feel that in the writing there.
So I, I actually am like more excited than I've ever been to
talk about aliens today. Yeah, I think you're locating
something interesting though, that it's going to be impossible
to talk about Aliens in a vacuum today, and we're going to be
comparing it to the original. We're going to be talking about
the lore. So if you've not seen it any of
the Alien films in this franchise, I recommend watching
those before listening to the rest of this episode.
But Alien, the original, is a very special film to both of us.
It's my favorite movie of all time.
And you know, Alien and Aliens might be sharing Adna with its
lore, but I think tonally they couldn't be more different.
Alien is a cold, detached, hard sci-fi movie featuring an an
oppressive workplace of minors in space who are all just like
really irritated by one another, but not in a loving way.
Like you have an aliens and when you see the famous Sigourney
Weaver as Ellen Ripley, she's really kind of a wallflower in
that film until about 50 minutes in right.
And she's presented as less of a badass and the trophy badass
that she has presented like in future Alien films.
And so she's a very fascinating kind of rational, observational
leader who might love her cat more than her Co workers.
Yeah, which is hilarious. So she is just a very hyper
relatable protagonist in the first film who is being beaten
down by her environment. And I think the Co worker bit of
Alien is the is the aspect of the alien movies that you have
to nail if you're going to make a successful movie in this
franchise. And I think the Co worker bit is
so special in the original because one, the crew is iconic,
right? The character actors are so
great in that movie, but also too there's a subversion in that
cast, which is that it's not that they necessarily dislike
each other or hate one another, it's that they dislike the
oppressive work conditions, right?
There's this like imposed class and power struggle between them.
And there is a 1984 Orwellian all seeing quote UN quote
company of it all, like tracking them constantly throughout the
movie. And the red herring of the film
is the xenomorph when the reality it's Wayla Nutani or Ash
is the representation of Waylon Utani or, you know, the mother,
the mainframe brain of the Nostromo.
These characters are have kind of predetermined the fates of
this crew. And so the movie's so smart when
it comes to its tense workplace. And if you're missing that, then
you know, the slasher, the the fun house horror of it all went
in Romulus or the kind of like war epic of it all in Aliens.
Those movies won't work as well if you don't care about the
characters that are going to get killed, right?
That really, really matters and that seems like basic screen
writing. And I do think it kind of is
that. And I think if you're coming to
Alien for set pieces only, then Romulus is probably excellent to
you. And I get that.
But for me it's got to have this like multi layered screenplay.
It's got to have atmospheric set pieces and for it to be executed
in a in the sci-fi genre, I also have to care about the concepts.
And if it's missing that, then it's just like it's not going to
be our standards. Luckily with James Cameron's
Aliens, he takes that Ridley Scott, Dan O'bannon, Ronald
Shusett, HR Giger nightmare and seven years later in 1986, he
does make something at least interesting.
We have a post Vietnam commentary.
There's definitely like a Reagan era libertarianism going on
throughout this movie. There's an anti establishment,
anti authority culture that is being seeped into a movie that's
supposed to be futuristic, you know, which is fascinating,
right? It feels a lot more contemporary
than any of the other Alien films and you still have the
kind of like suspenseful sci-fi action blockbuster of it all.
And I, and I think most people identify Aliens as one of the
most important spectacles ever made because it begins this like
IP ification of movies for better and for worse, right?
Which is interesting because I think now we look at franchises
as commonplace and one of the only ways to make a movie with a
sizeable budget today is to use previous IP to get greenlit.
And so Aliens, while being this incredible example of how to do
a sequel right, is also this fascinating historical artifact
where you might have a great time in a vacuum watching the
movie or a great time in the alien universe watching the
movie. But it's also an example of like
how the studios took everything wrong about the film exactly and
then created like a formulaic escapist.
Yeah, it's like now the sequel has to be bigger and better
instead of developing the interesting ideas of the
corporation in the original movie.
Yeah, I do think there's something about James Cameron
blockbusters, while entertaining, they do lack a
provocation that can kind of transcend the blockbuster of it
all. And so there is something about
his movies that do come off as formulaic, not necessarily
stylistically, but it's really his kind of thematic
sensibilities that they all feel a little bit like they're of the
same cloth, if that makes sense. And we'll talk about what that
means specifically today in Aliens.
But let's talk about Cameron really quickly before we get too
deep into the movie, because he's not somebody we're going to
be exploring today in terms of their project over their
filmography. He is a fascinating director to
do that with. We'll probably do that for
Avatar three or four or five whenever those movies come out.
But to get in his, you know, headspace in the making of
Aliens, we did watch Terminator, which came right before Aliens,
and we did rewatch T2 as well. So those were fun to check out.
As far as Cameron movies go, where do you find yourself
leaning? Are you in the Avatar world?
Are you, you know, in the Arnold Schwarzenegger world?
Are you aliens? Are you Titanic?
Yeah, I mean, well, I I think as an adult, like I don't really
lean towards Cameron movies or find myself rewatching them,
although I can appreciate like what, you know, obviously
Terminator did for film. But I I think like as a kid,
obviously Titanic was a huge sleepover movie.
Like I was always the one who stayed up the latest at
sleepovers and I always finished the movie.
We'd watch it like every time, right.
And and so like I remember Titanic being this like
monumental movie growing up. What about you?
Yeah, yeah. I don't think I really had a
Titanic, you know, for the James Cameron filmography.
I think if anything, I was a pretty irritated kid by how many
people tried to explain to me how Aliens was better than
Alien. So I found myself what you like
what you're saying, defending the original text and not liking
James Cameron because of it, even though I probably never
watched an interview or listen to a director's commentary.
But I did see all, all of his movies, you know, really young.
I mean, he hasn't made that many movies, so it's not that
difficult to see them. But I remember watching The
Abyss really young or True Lies really young.
So I've seen all the films except Piranha 2.
That's the original that he kind of disowns.
I've never seen that one. But, you know, with Titanic, for
example, I think it's a massive spectacle.
I don't really click with it emotionally outside of Jack
jumping back onto the ship. Sure, when he's, you know,
getting off and he's going to be rescued in a lifeboat and he's
like, I can't leave Rose. That's awesome.
That's just good stuff, you know, character work, good
storytelling and the acting power of Kate Winslet and and
Leo, obviously in the music and the tone.
That's all great. The pace for that movie is a lot
for me. It's like 3 hours, you know?
That's just a lot, yeah. Also, I don't really love either
Terminator film. I I appreciate the atmosphere.
I think of the first Terminator, which is more my lane of sci-fi.
It's more hard sci-fi, but then there's a romance in the third
act that really drags. I think what I like most about
Cameron is when he's really angry.
I think there there is an individual vision there that I
find to be kind of mean. And I admire him when he's
swinging and he's making something original, like the
first act of Terminator. And then you watch T2 and it
just feels a lot more commercially universal.
There's a lot of awesome set pieces that are pretty long, but
there's also this, like, sappy sentimentality that feels
inspired by the Spielbergian, you know, world that was already
created by the time, you know, T2 came out in theaters about
broken families. A lot of that stuff doesn't work
for me. Maybe it's just that generation
of directors. But then we get to something
like Avatar, which is visually iconic.
But I think both of those movies are pretty bad.
I couldn't think of a nice way to say it.
They are pretty forgettable multi billion dollar movies, you
know. Yeah, and we also talked about
like the Jake Sully of it all within that movie and.
Yeah, the sympathetic lens of a colonizer that is kind of missed
by some criticism that loves Alien.
Yeah, yeah. Which is very confusing.
He's doing like a Fern goalie slash Pocahontas thing that some
people have called as like an ecological epic that's actually
smarter than most people give it credit for.
I don't see that in those two movies.
You know, I'll rewatch them again in the future.
I don't think I'll ever revisit them with that kind of lens that
is looking into them as thematically dense in that way.
But they are just like like that water scene, that water scene in
Way of Water at in the night time on the boat when the the
two main characters are being chased down, there's a fight
scene, right? Like that's epic.
That's good film making. And obviously he has a crew
that's inventing new technology every time he makes a movie.
So that's cool. He's going to be stuck in this
Avatar universe for quite a while.
I think he's in contract with Disney for the next decade or
so. So that's pretty interesting.
We'll see what. Happens there.
And I think like, you know, people often talk about how
James Cameron is doing something that is with technology
advancing film with like the motion capture, sure, aspects of
Avatar, but I just can't like connect to the universe.
And I think that, you know, the, the white savior trope of Jake
Sully is so like weirdly not talked about when it's something
that I, I think like our like the culture are so aware of as a
trope now in movies to just like kind of forgive it in this major
blockbuster. So I, yeah, I mean, I, I don't
really like the Avatar movies, but also I think something
interesting about like T2 in particular that we'll talk about
with aliens today, which I think are like the weakest points of
those movies is having a, a child actor at the the center of
them. When I, if you really are not
like into that performance, right, or you don't believe that
performance, then it takes away a lot of the mistakes from some
really cool things that he's doing.
And unfortunately like that happens with Newt and aliens and
that happens in in Terminator two as well.
Yeah, there is something just commercially, again, like he's
trying to speak to all audiences through his screenplays.
And I think he uses kids in that way with his, you know, early
films. But there's also something sort
of almost off putting about there's like an artificial
design to the character studies. There's a self-awareness that
feels smart on the surface. And then when you interrogate
it, it doesn't feel like there's a lot there.
And then you're kind of taken over by the CGI sets and the
practical filmmaking. And depending on the movie
you're talking about and you kind of forgive it like what
you're saying. But I think that the those
calculated artificial choices in the character development or the
the kind of thematic nuances of his movies, he goes for more so
like pleasing all audiences first and foremost, which I
think there's, you know, there's something to be said about that.
But it also sort of throws me off because of the way he's
talked about as like a humanistic, progressive, you
know, feminist filmmaker, as you were saying before, when I think
he's very clearly like a cash grab.
I'm making escapist rides. Like he says that kind of stuff.
Like I'm making roller coaster rides.
Like he said that he loved Ridley Scott's original Alien
because it was a fun house nightmare and he wanted to make
something that was like a roller coaster ride in Aliens.
And you can feel that that kind of sensibility in most of his
movies. Yeah, which is just like not
movies that we're normally interested in, you know?
Yeah, I, I think that especially like what we'll talk about today
in Aliens is that I, I think that he is often mistaked as a
feminist action like filmmaker. And just because he has women,
like as the protagonists of a lot of his movies, in these
action movies where we have normally historically seen men
in those roles, doesn't necessarily mean that they are
like progressive. And also I think that especially
with Ripley's character arc and like the kind of like maternal,
you know, aspect of her arc, just because, you know, there
are certain qualities that we haven't seen in a hero character
doesn't necessarily mean that it's that interesting.
And so like, I want to talk about that too today.
I do think though, like, well, we will be talking about how
like Cameron is good at creating that roller coaster aspect.
It's just not what we come to movies for and so.
We're just that. I mean, yeah, that's what I
mean. Yeah, it's like Prometheus is an
epic, visually and sonically, but it's got ideas that are
crazy and ambitious. Some could say stupid for sure.
Am I during the scene of Covenant when an alien takes out
someone's jaw with their tail? Like, Oh my God, that was sick.
Yes. Like I'm not above that.
So I don't want to sound like, you know, a movie snob or
whatever, but I guess I, I think like we'll talk more about today
how we just like, you know, I don't think Cameron's our guy.
Yeah, I but I do want to, you know, touch on really quickly
before we get into this. Like what you said, I do think
Cameron deserves a little credit for platforming strong woman in
a time or industries said that that was impossible and to make
blockbuster starring woman was not possible.
And I do think he, you know, continuously throughout his
movies is like, here's a strong woman as a lead character.
Here's all these fragile and weak men and then he does
something that I think is interesting and also something
that I bump on, which is he replaces the survivor trope of a
woman lead with a kind of more like savior trope of what you
stereotypically see with a male hero journeys lead.
And I think some of have identified that choice as noble
or feminist, you know, quote UN quote.
But I'm not sure that's true like what you're saying.
It's just that he's really good at emasculating fragile, toxic
men. And I don't know if he's as good
at giving nuances to women as people.
Yeah, more as an idea, if that makes sense.
Like a woman as a concept. And he does, you know, I'm not
going to psychoanalyze him right now.
You can look into his personal life on Wikipedia if you'd like.
There's a lot there. And I think a lot to be said.
We're not going to do that right now.
But he he reminds me more of like a George Lucas, you know, B
plus Steven Spielberg, B plus Peter Jackson.
And there are film makers that wish they could do something,
you know, something like Cameron can do.
And there are film makers that have come close, like AJJ
Abrams. Somebody like Christopher Nolan
comes to mind as somebody who is doing what Cameron's attempted
to do, but in much more interesting ways.
Yeah, To me. Yeah.
Even though, you know, he might not ever put woman as leads in
his movie. Right.
Which is, again, a whole other conversation.
So. I'll continue to see his movies.
Obviously it's James Cameron. This is an historically
important figure. I'm just not sure I've ever
vibed with his sensibilities. Right.
Yeah. It's always interesting to see,
like, what he does technically, right, with like the art form.
But yeah, yeah, we'll talk about that more today.
I mean, we'll have, again, we'll have a decade of Avatar movies
to go. Through.
Fortunately and unfortunately, to a certain extent.
All right, so our episode today is exclusively on Patreon.
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Those 4 deep dives are one movie that is my favorite film of all
time and very important to this episode today.
Really, Scott's Alien, You have access to that right now.
Also, Ari Astor's Midsummer, Jonathan Demme's Silence of the
Lambs, and then The last movie is what else?
When am I missing Alex Garland's Ex Machina?
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So as always, our Patreon episodes are deep dives, but
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All right. So for anyone who wants to
listen and watch along James Cameron's Aliens with us, you
can stream all of the Canon alien films right now on Hulu or
Disney Plus. If you're overseas, I believe
it's still on Disney Plus or you can purchase the new 4K edition,
which I recommend. It's a divisive edition, but I
think it looks great. I think it looks incredible.
Even the Cameron of it all is him just wanting to kind of like
increase the brightness, make the colour pop a little bit
more. You can see a little bit more of
the artifice of the movie when you kind of see some kind of
matte paintings in the background sometimes, but I
think it's worth it the the humans in the movie specifically
look amazing in the space of it all.
Yeah, yeah. And also, we should say that
we're watching the theatrical version for this podcast as we
talk about. It thank you for saying that we
will be discussing the special edition director's cut scenes
that James Cameron wanted to keep in the movie but the studio
did not want right. Specifically Sigourney Weaver,
who only signed on to this film, you know, alongside her $1
million paycheck and the back end of of making some box office
returns, which she deserved because she only made like 30 K
off the original Alien. She wanted her whole kind of
like arc with her daughter, which we'll get to, to be
included in this movie. So when it was cut, that pissed
her off, which made her want to make more Alien films, even
though she never wanted to come back in the 1st place.
All right, on play, we'll start the theatrical cut of this
movie, 321 play. So James Camerons Aliens, this
came out in 1986. Lots of Oscar nominations, a
couple wins, big box office, almost 150 million, two $100
million return on a $20 million budget.
Similar returns to the original Alien.
There's a lot of behind the scenes studio shit going on in
the seven years between the original Alien.
In this film. We don't have to get into that.
Listeners can look into it if you're interested.
It's kind of a mess. But basically the studio
eventually, around 1984, loved Cameron's pitch for a bigger,
louder, more exciting Aliens film.
He came from the Rodger Corman, you know, exploitation side of
filmmaking, knew how to set up, you know, sets, was an art
designer. It basically means that he knew
how to work within budget and he knew how to make B features feel
like A features. And after the success of
Terminator in 84, I believe Fox was like, you got this, this is
your baby. And the infamous story is James
Cameron made the crew's lives in Britain a living hell.
And apparently he got worse and worse as days went on as this
autocratic figure who him and his wife at the time said that
they were really disrespected as artists.
While the the crew member said that James Cameron was
exploiting their union rules, which I sort of believe what's
what's fascinating about James Cameron is a figure is he's
often talked about having all these like American
sensibilities. He's Canadian.
Yeah, you know, which is interesting.
He's not like somebody who went in and is like an American was
like rugged individualism, even even if those are his
sensibilities or libertarianism, whatever.
He he just feels like somebody who is anti authority in his
movies but is constantly throughout his early work talked
about onset as being this authoritarian figure, which is
really interesting. Yeah, yeah, I like, it was
really weird to listen to the director's commentary also
because they were trying to talk about like the how there was
basically a rebellion on set and the crew left and they had to
like come back from that. And I was like, it's definitely
reframing, I think what other crews have said also on other
Cameron projects. So that was really interesting.
But also just in how he talks about like, Sigourney Weaver's,
like, politics and what she he wanted in this movie from the
character that was at odds with what he wanted.
And just just, I guess we'll talk more about, like, the way
that he was communicating that I was like, like, yeah, this feels
strange. Odd for sure.
Yeah. So this movie again came out in
1986. I just want to say we will come
back to this year because 1986 has a few of my favorite coming
of age movies. 1, John Hughes's Ferris Bueller's Day Off, one of
the greats, which stars one of our patrons, Conor Roy himself.
Himself, Yeah. And then a darker coming of age
film and also a found father film being Martin Scorsese,
Color of Money. Big year for Tom Cruise.
His Top Gun also came out this year.
And then to top off 1986, before we jump into Aliens, I just want
to shout out my boy Feifel Bifle for life.
There are no cats in America. Just kidding.
There were in fact cats in America.
An American tale, a masterpiece of animation and storytelling.
Kelsey's checking out. So are the listeners.
Just wanted to shout that out. A beautiful movie.
Thank you to my, you know, one or two listeners who who see me
right now. I.
Appreciate it. I was just thinking about when
you were talking about Tom Cruise, like Tom Cruise in an
Alien movie. I'm here for it.
Yeah, he sort of did that in Edge of Tomorrow, but I would
love to see him in the alien universe.
All right, so aliens, we. I want to see.
Him say mother, you know. I'm so down.
I think you'd be a great Android.
I don't know if you take that though.
God. Yeah, that'd be great.
We should do a fan casting idea on Covenant.
So Aliens. We open to a bluish purple hazy
space and right away Cameron establishes his own color
palette. Something brighter as we see a
large gun looking machine enter into Ripley's ship on the screen
right now and the movie immediately looks a little bit
shinier right than Scott's vision of the Alien universe.
And we get a new composer, James Horner's Oscar nominated music
here. There's also a back story with
him that's really complicated. Again, listeners, you can look
into it, but basically they they butted heads so much that James
Horner famously used his Star Trek 2 score, I believe on the
Aliens score because he just didn't want to make music for
James Cameron anymore. The score is good.
It's a bit ominous at the beginning, but also sort of
elegant. Has this violin I think that's
playing. It's almost like an evil Disney
score, sort of. It's like Majestic but dark and
one of many edits we get in this movie.
We start off at the beginning here with a dissolve edit and we
fade into the ship. It's maybe it's like the kind of
like 4K version we have, but it just looks so good.
Like everything in this movie visually to me looks so good as
we watch. Like this astronaut figure touch
the cryo space chamber and these wiping the water and the
condensation off of it. It just looks incredible for a
movie that was made in the 80s. Yeah, Yeah.
It's a really great sequence to like open up with, right,
Because we are told like technically that we are in a
different world, right. But we're returning to the same
story. I think like having that laser
arm cut into the spaceship and then very quickly we understand
that Ripley is here, right? And we have that kind of gun, I
guess, you know, looking laser come in and scan the room with
that blue a light, right that then highlights the smoke in the
room. And smoke and fog effect.
Yeah, yeah. And just it, it does have like
elements that Cameron did want to stay true to in terms of like
making the frame feel very forced with all the machinery in
it as well and having everything feel like tactile and practical.
So I, I love that opening. And then especially as like you
were talking about that kind of glitter that is supposed to be
the frozen aspect over Ripley that is revealed to be her, then
we have that kind of. Hi, hello there, sorry for
interrupting. Yeah.
Thank you for listening so far and hopefully you are enjoying
yeah, the episode so far. I feel like maybe if you made it
this far. They got it this far, you're.
Having a good time? I mean, let's hope.
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