1 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:21,040 The Hello Welcome to the extra credits of James Cameron's 2 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:23,800 Avatar, Fire and Ash. I'm Trey. 3 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:25,880 And I'm Kelsey. Hope you're all having a great 4 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:29,120 start to 2026. It's only a few days into the 5 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:34,440 new year and we basically spent all of 2026 so far in Pandora 6 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:39,280 because we watched 3 Avatar movies in three days to start 7 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:40,840 the new. Year, that is true, yeah. 8 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:44,040 We've also been prepping for Titanic on the Patreon because 9 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:46,280 we're covering that right now, probably tomorrow night. 10 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:48,680 So we're very much in James Cameron mode. 11 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,600 We are in his mind, yeah. We are in James Cameron's mind. 12 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:54,240 And I'm not sure I'm enjoying it. 13 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:57,720 I don't think I am. It's been an experience. 14 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:00,720 If I have to hear one more person explain how James Cameron 15 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:03,520 single handedly built the Titanic from the ground up, I'm 16 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:09,520 going to lose my fucking mind. My favorite thing in the he. 17 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:11,080 Built Pandora. Rewatch. 18 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:13,240 Oh yeah, he built. Pandora with. 19 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:16,240 His bare hands. Yeah. 20 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:21,080 People talk about James Cameron like he's this like modern 21 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:24,280 scientist. They're like, you know, and not 22 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:28,240 only is like, you know, I respect what he has done in in 23 00:01:28,320 --> 00:01:31,360 visual effects, skilled craft. I respect what he has done as a 24 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:35,040 filmmaker. We have covered him on Patreon 25 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:37,960 before, right, With aliens, plural. 26 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:42,880 And I, and I think, you know, we've talked about him like on 27 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:48,320 and off a very annoying person and we'll get into that today. 28 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:52,240 But also like I'm very in and out on his movies. 29 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:54,880 And that will be the experience of the podcast today. 30 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,400 People do defend him like he is AWA though if that makes sense. 31 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:02,160 They yeah, he's like a a cinema God, you know, to a lot of 32 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:04,760 people. And I understand why I I loved 33 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:08,440 the Titanic. You know, growing up I was 34 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:10,840 obsessed with Titanic, which I will talk about on the Titanic 35 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:12,040 pod. I will save that for that 36 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:17,720 conversation for there. But I just, you know, like I get 37 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:18,960 it and I don't. Yeah. 38 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:21,160 And that will be the topic of today. 39 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:23,480 I mean, he's the highest grossing film maker of all time, 40 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:24,920 so I think that has a lot to do with it. 41 00:02:24,920 --> 00:02:27,520 And he's made like 10 movies. And if you don't count the 42 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,120 Piranha one, he's made like 9. So it's pretty crazy. 43 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:35,600 So Avatar, Fire and Ash, Yeah. I'll be honest, we were very 44 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,960 reluctant to cover this film. I'm kind of surprised we are 45 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:40,200 recording this. Me too. 46 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:44,000 If you're new to the show, this is not a franchise that we love, 47 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,400 and many people do. So we're not here to hate on 48 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,280 what you love. We are here to give film 49 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:54,840 criticism, good and bad. And I think Avatar at this point 50 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:57,520 is kind of like culturally unavoidable, right? 51 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:00,360 It feels like an obligation to discuss it if you have a movie 52 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,640 podcast however it. Feels like a Titanic level movie 53 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:06,280 right? Has a cultural footprint. 54 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,640 It's a bigger movie than Titanic, though I would argue 55 00:03:09,640 --> 00:03:12,480 maybe has a smaller cultural footprint than Titanic, which is 56 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:14,480 interesting. Which is, I think, is a debate 57 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:16,720 that people. Had online has gone to see it, 58 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:20,040 right, Possibly like it's a Christmas movie. 59 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:22,920 I know, especially when it first came out, it was like, have you 60 00:03:22,920 --> 00:03:26,920 seen Avatar? But if I asked most people on 61 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:30,080 the street, right, to explain the plot of Titanic to me, I 62 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,600 think they would not because it's a historical, you know, you 63 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:35,000 know, actual thing that happened. 64 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:37,800 But if I asked them, you know, to explain what happens in 65 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:41,480 Avatar, I'm not sure so many people could could tell me, 66 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:43,600 right? Or if they they could tell you 67 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:45,400 all of a sudden it would sound real problematic. 68 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:47,760 They'd be like. Yeah, they'd be like and the 69 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:51,480 white soldier. He becomes blue and. 70 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:55,760 Has dreads, he becomes the king of right the. 71 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:59,120 The whole community. He becomes a better Navi than 72 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:03,200 the Navi themselves. So anyways, this movie came out 73 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:07,560 weeks ago and we were probably the only podcast in this movie 74 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:09,400 space that was like, no, thank you. 75 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,200 Not for us. Like I said, I think we're very 76 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:14,240 much in the minority of not loving these films. 77 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:18,079 However, we rewatched the first Avatar on New Year's Day, 78 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:20,720 immediately threw on Way of Water the next night. 79 00:04:21,519 --> 00:04:24,440 And I think both of us, I don't want to speak for you. 80 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:29,400 At least for me, I enjoyed being teleported into Pandora and 81 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,720 meeting a lot of the characters and seeing the imaginative world 82 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:37,760 building and I was like, these movies are strangely good movie 83 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:41,840 experiences, but also bad and really fascinating ways. 84 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:44,760 So I figured, why not go see Fire and Ash? 85 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:46,840 We did. And we were like, let's talk 86 00:04:46,840 --> 00:04:48,880 about these films 'cause I think there's a lot to discuss. 87 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:54,400 Yes, because they're actually like very kind of simple stories 88 00:04:55,520 --> 00:05:01,160 visually, like astonishing, right, but manipulative in in 89 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:03,680 terms of like what the story is actually doing. 90 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:06,320 And so have we given our warning yet? 91 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:10,520 I know you said this isn't what we usually do for new listeners, 92 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,400 but should I go ahead and do kind of like what I do on the 93 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:15,840 Marvel podcast? I mean we we at least have 94 00:05:15,840 --> 00:05:18,240 already like 3-1 review right? One star. 95 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:19,360 Maybe I should have done it sooner. 96 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:21,560 From just this past five. Minutes for any new. 97 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:24,680 Listeners, we've been one star bombed in 5 minutes multiple 98 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:28,720 times. From all the the courages of the 99 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:31,160 world who see themselves in general. 100 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:35,160 Porch. OK, so here's the here's the 101 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:39,480 warning for new listeners or new ish listeners. 102 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:44,320 We usually talk about movies not only as as if it's like a good 103 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:47,120 movie or not, right. We talk about the cultural 104 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:50,400 impact of movies. We're both in education and 105 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:54,200 we're interested in like what a movie is actually saying, what 106 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:56,320 people are taking from it in terms of a message. 107 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:58,640 And that is what we will talk about today. 108 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:03,600 So we'll have a lot of critiques about what the Avatar movies are 109 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:08,440 doing in terms of a like colonial story, right, and a lot 110 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:10,920 of problematic tropes. And then we'll also kind of like 111 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:16,760 celebrate the the achievements in, you know, filmmaking that 112 00:06:16,840 --> 00:06:19,120 that are happening here. So we're going to have like a 113 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:22,720 balanced review. But my warning to I can't 114 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:25,960 imagine, you know, women are doing this. 115 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:31,160 It's probably men, so, you know, take that with whatever. 99% 116 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:36,320 sure it's yeah. 99% sure if you feel that you can't, you know, 117 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:41,600 listen to a podcast that has different opinions than your own 118 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:46,000 and you, you know, are so tethered to the Avatar story and 119 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:50,320 Pandora itself, OK. Which is OK if you're tethered 120 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:51,520 to. These stories, that's fine if 121 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:54,800 you if you like these stories, but I say the same thing for 122 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:59,440 Marvel because it feels like people just cannot handle right 123 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:04,000 handle a conversation that is not just like overly celebrating 124 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:06,720 it. And so we say go listen to any 125 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:11,000 corporate podcast who you know, isn't really like interrogating 126 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,560 the text fully. And that's fine. 127 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:17,040 There are many other podcasts that are doing what you want, 128 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:19,880 celebrating the film. So just emotionally check in 129 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,960 with yourselves. You know, we are an independent 130 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:26,560 podcast and we tend to. Funded by our. 131 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:28,840 Yes, it's funded by our listeners on Patreon. 132 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:31,640 We we love you. Shout out happy new. 133 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,640 Year we here for you. Yes, we do, but you know, we 134 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:39,240 always like have, you know, great a great community, like 135 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:41,080 over there on living plus and just from our listeners in 136 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:43,480 general, like love hearing your feedback. 137 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:46,440 And often times, even if listeners disagree with us, like 138 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:48,360 they'll reach out and say like, I saw this differently. 139 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:50,400 That's cool. Like that's why we created a 140 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:54,520 podcast because we want a discourse around movies and 141 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:56,640 film. I was going to say and movies, 142 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:00,800 but sorry last thing is just that they should. 143 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,960 Replace Nicole Kimmons thing in AMC theatres with what you've 144 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:05,880 been doing for the past 3 minutes because I love it. 145 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:08,840 Keep going. I mean, the last thing is that 146 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:13,400 we tend to like if we map out, you know, the stats of when we 147 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:17,640 get like these one star reviews, it is always from when we drop a 148 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:21,720 marvel like esque podcast, it's always when we drop that and 149 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:24,440 it's like new listener. So like, if you are that man who 150 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:28,520 feels that you need to like drop, you know, a one star for 151 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:33,440 an independent podcast who is not funded by a corporation, 152 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:35,600 yes, you need to check in with yourself and please see the 153 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:36,520 door. That's it. 154 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:38,720 This podcast is not for you. How many minutes are we in? 155 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:39,840 They've probably already listened. 156 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:42,919 Yeah, hopefully, yeah. Maybe you've already done it. 157 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:46,080 Honestly, I challenge you to hate listen and then just never 158 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:48,160 listen again. I don't. 159 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:50,080 Challenge. You might find it interesting 160 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:50,920 you. Never know. 161 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:53,040 You never know. Yeah, it is interesting how 162 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,840 people, Avatar fans, and I'm going to generalize for a 163 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:00,760 second, seem to defend this franchise as if an independent 164 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:07,400 studio financed it, as if, you know, these movies are somehow 165 00:09:07,680 --> 00:09:10,800 the pinnacle of the art scene, right? 166 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:12,920 Like, and it's really interesting to see them defend 167 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:17,080 it as if there's a war in Avatar that is as strong and as 168 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:21,640 powerful as like Star Wars or Dune, because to me, these films 169 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:24,280 are not that and that's not what people come to them. 170 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:28,160 So I, I do think it is really fascinating to watch the Avatar 171 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:32,640 fan defend itself and, and defend this property as if it is 172 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:34,080 a religion. It is really, really 173 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:35,920 interesting. And maybe that's part of the 174 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:38,880 text too, because spirituality is a big theme in fire and Ash, 175 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:41,720 which we'll get to and faith alike. 176 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:47,280 OK, so fire and Ash, I do want to talk about the first 2 Avatar 177 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:51,480 films and our relationship to them and re watching them and 178 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:54,480 how I like them quite a bit more than I've ever liked them 179 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:56,080 before. Even though I think ultimately 180 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:58,840 that they're you know, there's a lot of problematic missteps in 181 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:00,120 both films. And I think in the at the 182 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:03,760 foundation, the root of Avatar, there's a lot of kind of like 183 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:07,320 just bad writing that we'll get to, even though they are just 184 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:09,880 kind of immersive spectacles that are really effective 185 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:13,200 blockbusters. With this third installment, 186 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:17,800 let's do quick reactions. Did you, were you excited going 187 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:21,640 into Fire and Ash after watching these first two again, did you 188 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:25,240 feel like you came out feeling pleased or satisfied with Fire 189 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:27,000 and Ash? Did you have Avatar fatigue? 190 00:10:27,680 --> 00:10:29,520 You know, putting aside, of course, our theater experience, 191 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,640 which was bad. Should we talk about that after 192 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:34,400 our reaction? Probably. 193 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:35,680 Yeah, OK. I think so. 194 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:37,920 Yeah. OK. 195 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:42,240 So my reaction to Fire and Ash I, again, we both don't have a 196 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:44,920 relationship to these movies. So like, I wasn't feeling 197 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:47,440 strongly either way. I wasn't going in with super 198 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,080 high expectations anything like that, right? 199 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:54,800 I was actually surprised, you know, in a rewatch of the 1st 200 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:58,280 and 2nd Avatar that I liked being immersed in the world, 201 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:01,000 especially when we get to Way of Water, which I think is the best 202 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:06,040 movie of the three, being in this like water world, all the 203 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:09,440 animals. I had a spine surgery last year. 204 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:12,840 James Cameron elephant documentary got me through a lot 205 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:17,920 of that. 3:00 AM up at night. And here you are criticizing 206 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:20,280 this man who made you an elephant documentary. 207 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:22,320 He's also made several other ones. 208 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:24,680 There's one where he becomes one of the five men who's gone to 209 00:11:24,680 --> 00:11:26,600 the bottom. Of the ocean, bottom of the 210 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,640 ocean, and I'm sure he tells every person he meets about. 211 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:31,600 It for what reason? Because why not? 212 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:35,080 He's got fuck you Avatar money. And Titanic money, that's true. 213 00:11:35,560 --> 00:11:36,840 And Terminator money. And aliens. 214 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:38,280 Money. I cannot wait to talk about all 215 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:42,640 the Titanic experiments that he we did after this the film from 216 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:44,680 the reaction of that that movie. We have a lot to talk about on 217 00:11:44,680 --> 00:11:47,600 the Patreon. Yes so back to Avatar I I really 218 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:49,120 loved being immersed in the world. 219 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:53,240 I was way more connected to the family, like and rewatch, 220 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:56,880 especially in Way of Water, especially the kids, right? 221 00:11:57,560 --> 00:12:01,280 Maybe minus Curie, but we'll talk about that. 222 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:06,440 And then so going into we, we literally, you know, ended Way 223 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:09,360 of Water maybe like 5 minutes before we left for the movie, 224 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:11,400 right? And then went straight into Fire 225 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:15,200 and Ash. And so yes, Fire and Ash is an 226 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:18,440 extended kind of story. A lot of people have criticized 227 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:24,040 it for being a, you know, kind of extension, not its own movie 228 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:28,720 like Way of Water Part 2. And yes, it does feel like that, 229 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:32,040 but I don't really care because I like to being in the way of 230 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:35,960 water world. So I think if it was named Way 231 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:40,440 of Water Part 2 instead of Avatar 3 or Fire and Ash, 232 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:43,480 whatever it's called, I I think there would have been maybe a 233 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,360 more positive reaction to it, right? 234 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:51,040 Well, it's called Fire Nash, and it has Verrang, the leader of 235 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:54,400 the volcanic clan, at the top of the poster. 236 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,280 But this, yeah, so this is my biggest problem with it because 237 00:12:57,280 --> 00:12:59,400 I don't, I don't have any expectations that I'm like, 238 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:01,120 upset about. And I thought the movie was 239 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:03,960 fine. It dragged in the front and then 240 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:08,960 the end, you know, whole battle looked really good, was 241 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:11,480 exciting. I was I was pretty like locked 242 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:13,560 in. But if you're going to name the 243 00:13:13,560 --> 00:13:19,080 movie Fire and Ash especially, you know our generation is 244 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:21,320 Avatar the Last Airbender, right, viewers? 245 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:22,320 I definitely thought about that a lot. 246 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:25,000 And a lot of people maybe are because during the pandemic, you 247 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:29,440 know, it became like popular again to rewatch it, but it was 248 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:32,320 airing when we were children. So like, we were very connected 249 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:36,480 to the fire, water, Earth, air tribe, right? 250 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:40,200 And so I thought we were going to go, we were going to get a 251 00:13:40,560 --> 00:13:43,320 like the the water tribe. And sorry, I'm not using 252 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:46,080 specific. I will be calling in the Water 253 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:49,440 clan and tribe today. Because I yeah, I I have only 254 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:52,760 seen these movies like once. So but the fire tribe to get 255 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:58,480 them in the story as like a plot device for courage and not have 256 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:02,400 them be a focus of the movie and learn more about them and have 257 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,840 them be like an actual addition to the movie as the title and 258 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,880 poster, you're right, suggests being at the very front. 259 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:13,640 That was disappointing. So because I wanted more of that 260 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:18,640 the the Fire tribe or, you know, whatever their specific name is 261 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:26,520 in this fictional story. Also incredibly, incredibly 262 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:30,320 problematic and wild to see in a 2026 movie. 263 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:33,840 What the clan? Yes, the Fire Fire tribe. 264 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:35,680 We'll talk about. It yeah, which we'll talk about 265 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:38,640 so like those are my biggest takeaways of the movie. 266 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:42,000 But again, it's not something that like it's interesting that 267 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,720 people are talking about the fire tribe and what it had 268 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:50,320 potential for in terms of what was interesting of like Awa 269 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:55,800 turning her back on them about like the loss of religion, about 270 00:14:55,800 --> 00:15:03,320 the the idea of like, you know, their tribe in comparison to 271 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:08,080 what we've learned about the Nabi people like the the forest 272 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:12,360 right tribe, the water tribe. So like that was could have been 273 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:15,200 interesting, had the right it was. 274 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:18,040 It was something that could have been explored more and wasn't. 275 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:21,240 And people are like talking about it as if that was 276 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:22,040 explored. If that makes. 277 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:25,880 Sense. And so it wasn't. 278 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:28,280 It was a fine movie. It was the worst of the three. 279 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:32,440 That's my initial reaction. No, I think I agree. 280 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:34,200 I was pretty mixed on it walking out. 281 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,560 I think I like it more thinking about it, but it's still kind of 282 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:41,680 AI think it's a surface level, though has a lot of themes. 283 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:46,840 Entertaining, incredible looking half a billion dollar budgeted 284 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:49,680 movie. And I want to like highlight the 285 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:52,800 fact that this movie cost close to half a billion to make, 286 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:54,840 because everyone always talks about these movies making a 287 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,920 billion or or 2 billion, whatever these movies cost like 288 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:03,960 this is five budgets of these are 5 sinners basically to make 289 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,040 this movie or five one battle after another's. 290 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:09,280 Do you know what I'm saying? That's that's pretty crazy. 291 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:13,240 And those are already very expensive films, like such a 292 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:15,800 such expensive movies that it was a big deal that Ryan Cooper 293 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:18,960 was able to make a original $100 million movie or for PTA to make 294 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:21,600 $100 million, you know, espionage, you know, dark 295 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,440 comedy, thriller. I'm only noting that because I 296 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:26,280 do think that these movies are, again, I don't want to talk 297 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:28,560 about this too much, but coveted too much for their box office 298 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:30,520 success. I don't think that box office 299 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:34,320 equates to cultural impact or success, like narratively, if 300 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:35,760 that makes sense, or cinematically. 301 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:41,040 All that to say, movies like this that cost 4 to $500 302 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:43,520 million, that are superhero films or fantasy films don't 303 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:46,160 always look incredible, but this movie does look incredible. 304 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:48,120 So it uses its resources effectively. 305 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:51,040 So I want to, you know, give its flowers for that. 306 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:54,120 I think mainstream audiences are getting their money's worth of 307 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:55,640 spectacle in all three of these films. 308 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:58,840 The action is really immersive. James Cameron is a great action 309 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,880 filmmaker. He also really knows how to hit 310 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,920 basic emotional beats extremely well. 311 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:07,000 He did it in Aliens. He did it in the Terminator 312 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:11,079 films and he does an Avatar movies, which is doing the kind 313 00:17:11,079 --> 00:17:15,400 of bare minimum of stakes in like found family or family 314 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:19,640 dramas, which is put kids in danger, put innocent animals in 315 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:21,680 danger, put those families in danger. 316 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:24,400 And then so all of those emotional beats in Avatar that 317 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:29,960 feel sort of like formulaic, but like a very successful formula. 318 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:32,440 I think he really, I think he designs those really well with 319 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:35,480 the writers, even if it is, as you said, at the top, a little 320 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,360 bit manipulative what he gets up to in this movie, which I don't 321 00:17:38,360 --> 00:17:39,760 want to, you know, just spoil at the top here. 322 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:43,800 But there are some choices made emotionally with some characters 323 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:45,920 that go through some hardships that I don't think are totally 324 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:48,320 deserved that feel manipulative that we can get to. 325 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,440 But as a movie, I don't, you know, going back to your point, 326 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:53,040 I don't think this was totally memorable. 327 00:17:53,360 --> 00:17:57,920 You know, it feels like, it feels less like a new chapter on 328 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:00,920 Pandora and more like what you said, Way of Water Part 2 329 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:03,000 stretched into its own installment. 330 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,520 Though I kind of, I would have liked, to your point again, I 331 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:09,400 would have liked it more if it was just Way of Water Part 2 and 332 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:12,640 maybe we didn't introduce the fire and ash tribe because I 333 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:14,360 think that's really the draw of the film for me. 334 00:18:14,360 --> 00:18:16,560 I liked learning about the water tribe outside of the forest 335 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:19,160 tribe in the way of Water. I was excited to come into this 336 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,440 movie to learn more about this, you know, volcanic tribe and 337 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:25,000 what the fire and ash represent to them and what Awad means to 338 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:28,320 this tribe or or does it mean to them for a variety of reasons 339 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:33,320 and for all the things the movie does to iterate on the the past 340 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:36,160 movies like wave water successful elements which were 341 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,720 like Neytiri and her family or the Tolkien sea life. 342 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:43,200 In this new film, all that comes back with the fire and ash 343 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,600 people, those those not or sorry, the Navi. 344 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:49,560 They are supposed to be the most interesting parts of this movie. 345 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:52,600 And it was really frustrating how we only got a few scenes 346 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:55,720 that really unpack their motivations or their history. 347 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:59,560 Like there's a moment where the Fire and Ash tribe briefly 348 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:03,520 explains in like a scene or two that they have this revenge, you 349 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,200 know, plan against Awa, that they are basically like 350 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:09,400 ecological terrorist and that they've been radicalized because 351 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:12,840 Awa was not there for them. And the volcano basically Awa, 352 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,760 who controls, you know, Pandora killed their people. 353 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,280 And so they have this, you know, vendetta against the deity of 354 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:22,760 Pandora, which I think is a fascinating riding decision, 355 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,320 especially when you look at these as like, you know, anti 356 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:28,440 colonial allegories, these stories and you can map on a lot 357 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:30,400 of different cultures into what they're trying to say in this 358 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,240 movie. And I also think that the fire 359 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:36,560 Nash kind of crisis of faith tribe, I think they're supposed 360 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:38,800 to be paralleling other characters having a crisis of 361 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:42,920 faith in this film, like Neytiri or Curie or even Jake to a 362 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:46,360 certain degree, but it just doesn't totally work or isn't 363 00:19:46,360 --> 00:19:50,120 totally balanced. And so then going to your point 364 00:19:50,120 --> 00:19:52,120 just to give you some evidence, because some people might be 365 00:19:52,120 --> 00:19:54,240 confused about what you mean about it being problematic. 366 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:56,560 The way that the Fire and Ash tribe are depicted in this film, 367 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:59,600 the Fire and Ash tribe are basically sidelined as a hyper 368 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:04,160 violent like group of sexual caricatures of indigenous. 369 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:09,440 You know, tribal members and in place of, you know, the story 370 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:11,760 and their story, like contextualizing them and 371 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:14,360 actually featuring them as main characters, the film makers 372 00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:17,840 choose to focus instead on other characters like Spider, who's 373 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:21,200 the white boy with dreads and him becoming or wanting to 374 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:25,880 become like Jake Sully, a Navi. And then it decides to not only, 375 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:29,720 you know, continue that story arc, it brings courage back to 376 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,160 give him sort of a more complicated arc where he begins 377 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:35,240 to sympathize with the Navi as he assimilates in there, you 378 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:38,560 know, fire and Ash community. And then sort of suggest like a 379 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,040 minor redemption arc, which then I found to be kind of 380 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:42,760 questionable. And then halfway through the 381 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,520 movie, I'm like, why the hell are we not learning about this 382 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:47,240 new tribe? Why are we spending so much 383 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:48,720 time? Why is this Spiders film? 384 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,360 I found this to be really head scratching. 385 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:53,320 And it's not to say that there weren't some interesting parts 386 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:56,000 about Spider or Courage in this movie or or Kiri. 387 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:58,240 I just found those to be a lot less interesting. 388 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:00,760 Like with Kiri, like she has a spiritual journey with Awa in 389 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:03,440 this film. Where we see this, I don't want 390 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:06,400 to spoil it, we'll get to in spoilers, but we see a 391 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,040 representation of what Kiri's been dealing with in her own 392 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:11,240 kind of crisis of her connection to Awa. 393 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:14,800 Meanwhile, like as you're trying to take in all that Curie 394 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:16,880 subplot, because she is sort of a new character that was 395 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,520 introduced just last film and Wave Water. 396 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:23,440 You have the other kind of newer character, which is Spider in 397 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:27,360 the film basically becomes about Spider and his relationship to 398 00:21:27,360 --> 00:21:31,680 his father and his father being this fascist who also hates the 399 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,520 Navi but is also getting this redemption arc. 400 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,360 And it's kind of a Luke Skywalker situation where Spider 401 00:21:37,360 --> 00:21:41,160 is the Luke because he also has this like romantic thing with 402 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,720 his found family sister Carrie, which I found to be quite a 403 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:46,600 choice. My dad has blown up planets, but 404 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,440 he's not all that bad. And also my sister. 405 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,760 Yeah. So I, you know, I found there to 406 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,400 be some of a good emotional scenes with Spider that we can't 407 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:02,320 spoil right now that people probably know. 408 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,480 If you've seen the movie, There's one in particular that 409 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:06,680 were effective. But I just don't understand why 410 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,520 they pivoted so many times from who they should be focusing on 411 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:11,880 this story in such an imbalanced way. 412 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:17,360 Like for example, the Jake and Neytiri's son Lolac, who in the 413 00:22:17,360 --> 00:22:21,680 1st 30 minutes of this movie is narrating the film, is basically 414 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:25,280 the main character and it is sort of a epilogue of Way of 415 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:27,520 Water to start this movie, which is fascinating. 416 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,360 And his arc is really complex. He's grieving his brother. 417 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:32,200 He's trying to get his father's approval. 418 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,640 He has a possible romantic interest with the Water Tribe 419 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:39,560 Princess, I think, or or young girl who's like in in the family 420 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:41,840 who's the head of the tribe. Yeah, I think it's yeah. 421 00:22:42,120 --> 00:22:45,360 She's the daughter of the two like tribe leaders. 422 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:46,680 Right. And there's cultural differences 423 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:48,960 between the tribes, so you kind of wanted to get to know their 424 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:50,840 relationship a little bit more in this movie, or that's what I 425 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,560 thought was going to get. But then after those first 30 426 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:55,960 minutes where they establish all these kind of complexities to 427 00:22:55,960 --> 00:23:00,080 his character, most of his arc is sidelined for Spider for 428 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,800 literally the next three hours of the film, which I thought was 429 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:07,360 just a bad choice considering they didn't really complicate 430 00:23:07,360 --> 00:23:09,800 Spider in any real meaningful way. 431 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,160 There were other people's arcs around him who were complicated 432 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,560 in ways that I did not find meaningful, that I found to be 433 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:18,840 actually pretty problematic. That we can get to. 434 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:21,600 There's actually a moment in this movie where I thought 435 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,760 Spider was going to actually turn from the Luke Skywalker 436 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:27,960 figure into an Anakin figure where he might become a villain 437 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:31,480 corrupted by his absent families that both turn against him. 438 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:35,880 You know, his biological father being and then his adoptive 439 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,520 parents all using him as a tool and not seeing him as a human 440 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:44,160 being or person rather. And maybe he was even like, 441 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,800 maybe people are willing to kill him if it's suited their agenda. 442 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:51,160 And I really liked that vibe. The story was like kind of 443 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:54,280 falling into, but then it pivots out of that too, and it chooses 444 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,360 a different route that's a lot more safe and simple. 445 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,280 You're right. I feel like after the scene that 446 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,520 you're talking about, what you will get to, we could have had 447 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,480 like a not from my point of view and. 448 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,040 The end of this movie is deeply revenge of the sith inspired 449 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:08,840 like, aesthetically and visually like but. 450 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:10,480 It doesn't go there. You're you're very right. 451 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:12,480 It doesn't go there emotionally, which I found to be really 452 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:14,840 interesting, and in fact they end that sequence that that 453 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:16,880 ending action scene in this movie with a joke. 454 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:22,680 And the most interesting thing about the Avatar franchise is 455 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:27,480 that like it has potential to to kind of like do what you're 456 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:32,760 saying like have a sort of Anakin arc in Spider or yeah, 457 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,320 just like, I guess the, the reason why I'm kind of shocked 458 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:42,880 that Avatar has such a like positive fandom is that the 459 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,520 movie doesn't even seem like interested in interrogating the 460 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:50,400 characters in the same way that Star Wars does or like Dune rate 461 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:52,720 franchises. And so it, it's just like 462 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:57,520 fascinating how people are able to just kind of like view this 463 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:02,240 out in arm's length and celebrate Spider as our, like, 464 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,400 main character. Yeah, I think this is a good 465 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,720 time to jump into re watching the 1st 2 Avatar movies because 466 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,040 I think we're going to be hopefully we don't repeat 467 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:12,320 ourselves too much. We're going to talk about 3 468 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:14,600 movies at once basically. But I think it's a good moment 469 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:18,400 to try to maybe establish our own thoughts on this franchise a 470 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,560 little bit more clearly because I think we're still parsing them 471 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:22,720 out because we're not super fans. 472 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:24,960 So he's we've only seen the first two films twice, I think, 473 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:30,320 and we just saw this third film like last night basically, but 474 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:32,960 like positives first. I've I've already said this, but 475 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:34,720 I want to repeat it maybe in a different way that I think is 476 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,040 more interesting. Every time I watch these movies, 477 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,760 I always tell Kelsey or like just the other day, I told Kels. 478 00:25:40,120 --> 00:25:41,920 Every time I see a scene from these movies, rather because I 479 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,120 don't really watch the whole films, I feel like I'm being 480 00:25:44,120 --> 00:25:46,520 incepted into the screen. I feel like I'm being 481 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:48,240 Christopher Nolan into. The screen. 482 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,480 And it's, it's awesome. It is like an indescribable 483 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,960 feeling that you, you to in a very Nolan way, you just have to 484 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,280 feel it right. And every time we're seeing 485 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,160 Pandora with the imaginative kind of like design of 486 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,760 everything, the world building, the ecosystems, the sea life, 487 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,880 the Tolcoon, which are like the whale sea life, the flying 488 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:13,000 creatures, the even the new kind of inventions in this third film 489 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:18,120 with the the kind of tech designs of the air sails that 490 00:26:18,120 --> 00:26:19,080 come. Out like Jelly. 491 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:20,720 Ballistic Jelly. Thank you. 492 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,760 They are like jellyfish designed and even the tech with the 493 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,040 harpoon chips is really fascinating, even though those 494 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,120 are really like upsetting poaching sequences. 495 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,760 And both Way of Water and Fire and Ash, there's just a general 496 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,480 meticulous design to all three of these films. 497 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,040 But in rewatch, the first two, especially Way of Water, I was 498 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:42,480 like, holy shit. The digital and practical kind 499 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:46,440 of seamlessly blend together. And I assume it's because there 500 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,440 are hundreds of designers on these movies behind the scenes 501 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,640 that James Cameron always gets credit for, which is not his 502 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:53,240 fault. That's more of a it's more of a 503 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:55,240 studio system fault for not putting those names out there 504 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,040 more frequently. But if I was to give a very 505 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:00,680 charitable reading of these movies, I would say that there 506 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,960 are you don't have to think too hard, but you can because the 507 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,440 themes are there. So you're able to just enjoy 508 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:08,680 them as roller coasters. But they can also be thoughtful 509 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,480 intellectual exercises for its fandom. 510 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,800 Because there's enough quote UN quote ideas in both the first 511 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,200 two films and especially in this third one that you can kind of 512 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:22,320 convince yourself that they are masterpiece level text, which is 513 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,280 a charitable reading of these movies. 514 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,840 That's the problematic stuff aside, if that makes sense. 515 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,680 So I can see how, because I have friends who love these movies, I 516 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,880 can see how people can fall in love with these films. 517 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:35,480 I can see how people can get immersed in the world, which I 518 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,080 totally agree is the biggest strength of these movies. 519 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,880 And shout out to everyone who works on them in terms of, like, 520 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:46,360 creating this world that feels like we were talking about, 521 00:27:46,360 --> 00:27:49,880 especially in Way of Water and National Geographic documentary, 522 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,320 except it's like cinema. So you're able to like, make, 523 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:57,560 have people make friends with whales and like, yeah, watch 524 00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:59,840 them underwater. They're talking to each other. 525 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,600 Yeah, they're you have the kind of like echo in the fire and ash 526 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,680 movie of the whales communicating when the waves are 527 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:12,120 kind of vibrating. Like, it all looks amazing. 528 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:17,520 And I, yeah, I do feel like it's a a sort of like what people, 529 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:21,880 you know, when VR was invented, like imagined, like people 530 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,720 really being immersed fully into a world, like you're putting 531 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:31,240 your avatar headset on. And and I understand also like 532 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:37,480 there are a lot of themes that are kind of talking about the 533 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,520 lack of like connection to nature, right? 534 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:47,120 And there is a very like clear cut in terms of the stories 535 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:52,080 logic like good and evil forces. And there's a very like kind of 536 00:28:52,120 --> 00:29:00,160 general, I guess bad guy, right, which is kind of like a a vague 537 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:06,160 W like Western military force. But most likely like USI don't 538 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,160 know if they have any like patches on them but. 539 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,320 It's a broad morality tale. Yeah, right. 540 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,760 Like, but I, I think, you know, are we getting into the first 541 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:15,560 movie? Here. 542 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,920 OK, the first movie, for example, just at the very start, 543 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:24,280 like while while yes, that is like on the surface, maybe like 544 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,360 a a theme that I understand, like why broad audiences connect 545 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:32,440 to like, Oh well, there's these like capitalists and this 546 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:37,560 military state who is hunting whales and basically taking 547 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:38,760 resources. Right. 548 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:40,520 Right. Wait, what? 549 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:42,320 The The whales of the Tolkun. OK. 550 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:42,960 Thank you. Yeah. 551 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:44,400 I think it's the tolcoon. OK. 552 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:45,720 I apologize if it's not, I'm just. 553 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:47,600 Going to call him whales. I know it's fictional, but 554 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:49,840 people are very defensive. That is fine. 555 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:52,160 Which? I understand why they feel real. 556 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:54,840 OK, whatever. So the whales and then the 557 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,440 forest like, right. Obviously like this is a, this 558 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:02,160 is a colonial like metaphor, right? 559 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,320 Extracting resources like killing people. 560 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:09,560 An anti very anti capitalist movie. 561 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,840 Yeah, very clear cut too. In the kind of like CEO in the 562 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:17,240 first movie, he was like, yeah, we tried, you know, building an 563 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,880 education system and like teaching them our culture and 564 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,880 building roads and infrastructure and they don't 565 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,360 want our way of life. So now let's go ahead and take 566 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:28,400 it violently. Like they're very clear cut. 567 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:30,680 That's the CE OS like almost word for word, right? 568 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:34,520 Plan about like what is going on and why. 569 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:39,240 Again, this is, yeah, like an evil force, right, that is 570 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:44,080 coming to the planet of Pandora. But I think also at the opening 571 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,240 is very clear in terms of the flaws of the movie where Jake 572 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:53,200 Sully's character, while he is still in human form and he finds 573 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,560 out, right, Like his twin brother died. 574 00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:59,120 And so he's going to now, because they made an Avatar body 575 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:03,080 for like funding purposes, he's going to be someone who's who 576 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,320 can be put in this body because he shares the same DNA, right? 577 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,480 And as he's told us many time and time again, he is a Marine. 578 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:13,040 He's not going to bring a knife to a gunfight. 579 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,200 And as a father, his responsibility. 580 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:17,840 Oh, sorry, also is to. Protect his family. 581 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:19,480 Also, he's a protector. My bad. 582 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,120 Anyway, so while he's still in human form, right, the minute he 583 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:28,440 gets off the ship, the dialogue is so like telling, I guess of 584 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:32,120 like where we're going to go in this franchise and where he says 585 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:36,560 basically that on on Earth, right where he comes and it's 586 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,760 supposed to be basically like the US or a Western military. 587 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,240 This seems like. There's some kind of Wall-e 588 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:44,520 situation on. Earth, yes, it because at one 589 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,120 point they say that like there there are no resources on Earth 590 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:49,280 anymore. Yeah, I think it's like a Blade 591 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:50,600 Runner situation. Yeah, some kind of 592 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,520 corporatocracy is taken over a large part of Earth or. 593 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,160 Something right, so, but as he's coming off the ship and we're 594 00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:02,360 meeting his character, he says the the military here, right, 595 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,360 used to fight for freedom on Earth and here they're just 596 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:10,400 hired guns for a company. I said, Oh no, Jake Sully. 597 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:14,320 I said Jake Sully. No Jake Sully. 598 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,120 Sully, I said you got it wrong at the jump. 599 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:23,040 Jake. Jake So the just that kind of 600 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:26,320 like dissonance, right? The I guess Tamron's worldview 601 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:31,280 at the very start here, just simplifying the idea that a 602 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:37,120 military of a state that is a a colonial right like. 603 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:41,600 Occupying force. Is associating that military 604 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:46,000 with fighting for quote UN quote freedom is is literally 605 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,960 detaching Why people, I think, you know, in your charitable 606 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,560 reading why people actually think Avatar is interesting, 607 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,160 right as like an imperial allegory. 608 00:32:57,760 --> 00:32:59,880 But I think, you know, there's so many what like what we'll 609 00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:03,920 talk about in a second here in terms of the the issue issues 610 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,960 with it that keep unfolding of like, oh, like does James 611 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,000 Cameron slash the creators not actually think this is happening 612 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,840 on Earth, even though they're creating a whole story about how 613 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:16,080 this is a metaphor for what's happening on Earth? 614 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:21,240 It's very like it's allowing people to enjoy something and 615 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:25,440 not actually critically, you know, engage with like what the 616 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:29,480 message is because it allows the white audience because those are 617 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:31,120 the characters who are at the forefront, right? 618 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:35,800 Like we talked about like Kiri being like corny Weaver, Jake 619 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,880 Sully and and spider and then now courage and I keep saying 620 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:43,880 like porridge instead of like porridge, It's like porridge. 621 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,560 I'm going to keep saying porridge like porridge and I 622 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:51,040 just don't care. But anyway, regardless the the 623 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:52,440 did you. Just say Stephen Lang. 624 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,800 No, that's the actor. No Colonel Miles. 625 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:57,960 No, the Colonel. Sure. 626 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,880 OK. So the Colonel though, right? 627 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:05,320 Like anyway, we'll get into everything with like Jake Sully. 628 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,960 I'm just saying that like the the idea that the movies are 629 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,040 actually about the Navi people and actually about extracting 630 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:15,360 resources and actually about this evil force in this military 631 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:17,800 state that's coming in to take over this planet. 632 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:19,639 The movies actually are not about that. 633 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:24,600 Like on the surface they are, but it allows audiences who are 634 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:28,960 viewing this, who are a part of that, that worse that's taking 635 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,320 over Pandora to comfortably position themselves in 636 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:37,960 opposition to them and to be more in relationship to Jake, to 637 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,320 Spider and to the other white characters who again, we will 638 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:48,840 talk about are the somehow the most spiritual successful and 639 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:54,440 maybe not Spider, but whatever members of the the Nabi people. 640 00:34:55,639 --> 00:35:00,480 Cosign everything you just said. I do want to also add that it is 641 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:04,960 like an ambitious goal that James Cameron set for himself in 642 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:09,600 2008 and his team to want to create a science fiction late 643 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,200 capitalist kind of 10 Commandments meets Lawrence of 644 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:19,280 Arabia biblical saga that also meets Dune in Star Wars. 645 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,560 And be like how we were just saying unapologetic in its 646 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:27,040 themes of anti imperialism, anti capitalism while being this 647 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,760 environmental epic, right? Like that's a pretty awesome 648 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:32,360 pitch. And I think that's what he 649 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,360 pitched originally. All of your observations are 650 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,000 right on. It seems as if the movie did not 651 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:42,440 want to push the way it's very broad target audience too too 652 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:44,120 much because it does have a global interest. 653 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:45,680 We still have to make our billion back. 654 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:47,520 Exactly. And so as much as it wants to 655 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:51,640 critique greed and militarism and capitalism and, and the 656 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:54,720 villain that is this occupying private military force from 657 00:35:54,720 --> 00:35:57,640 Earth that is extracting resources from the Navi and 658 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:01,160 Pandora and the wildlife, the studio system is also a part of 659 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,880 all this. You can't disconnect Hollywood 660 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:05,680 from capitalism. And so like, it is kind of a 661 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:08,680 major issue of all like commercial art at this scale. 662 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,160 And so even movies like Dune have had issues that we've 663 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:13,760 discussed in depth of this episodes. 664 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:18,440 Those movies are like, you know the top tier of anti imperialist 665 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:22,560 text with big blockbuster budgets like 200 million plus. 666 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,440 So this it's not fair to compare Avatar and do thematically to 667 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:29,120 me. But when it makes the issues you 668 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:32,360 know it or has the problems it does, it is necessary to 669 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:36,560 interrogate them. You hit on the the biggest issue 670 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,080 with the first Avatar film that that is the foundation of the 671 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:43,400 problem of all these movies to me, which is that these movies 672 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,480 are seemingly about the Navi, but not really about the Navi. 673 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:50,360 Like that's the real problem to me about these films is that 674 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:52,800 it's like, here's an occupying force that is extracting 675 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:56,120 resources from an indigenous people on this planet that we 676 00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:57,720 think is a planet. Because it seems like it's also 677 00:36:57,720 --> 00:37:00,800 like this spiritual orb. Because we're going to get in 678 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:02,720 spoiler territory now. So turn this off if you haven't 679 00:37:02,720 --> 00:37:04,800 seen Fire and Ash. But basically, we know that 680 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,360 there's a giant baby controlling Pandora. 681 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:11,560 It's a Teletubby situation. It is a Teletubby situation. 28 682 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,120 years later meets Avatar. It was always the Teletubby. 683 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:16,920 No, I think it's a grown custard. 684 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,680 It's a grown, glowing person at the center. 685 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:23,240 Yes, we'll, we'll get to it. I think it says a lot that it's 686 00:37:23,240 --> 00:37:25,920 kind of indistinguishable from being a human baby and a Nabi 687 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:26,440 baby. I don't. 688 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:28,600 Think it's a baby. I think it looked like a It 689 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,120 hasn't. Baby like face to me, I think I. 690 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,360 I think you were really just connecting with. 691 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:35,920 The No, I've, I've read a lot of reviews on this movie, too. 692 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:38,520 People identified it as a baby. Yeah, that's interesting. 693 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:40,840 You didn't it remind me of the 2001 Space Odyssey. 694 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,400 Baby, have you seen that movie? I have seen that movie but I'm 695 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,760 forgetting the visual. Well, at the very beginning you 696 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:48,440 mean. The very end. 697 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:52,240 The very end it's a space baby. Oh, I was mixing up just Barbie 698 00:37:52,240 --> 00:37:54,680 with. It there's also sort of I guess, 699 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,160 wait, no, that's there is a big baby in Barbie, right? 700 00:37:58,560 --> 00:37:59,840 Yes. OK, we're getting off topic. 701 00:37:59,920 --> 00:38:01,760 Yeah, yeah, the point was there's another. 702 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:03,840 Movie that has like a glowing it. 703 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:05,360 Doesn't matter, OK? It doesn't matter. 704 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:10,200 Basically, in this first Avatar film, we watch the Navi fight 705 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:13,200 back and defend themselves to protect their existence, right? 706 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,280 Which is a powerful story that we've all consumed before, but 707 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,520 still powerful nonetheless. And it is for a multi billion 708 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:21,200 dollar blockbuster. But nonetheless, it's a 709 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:22,640 thematically thoughtful blockbuster. 710 00:38:22,720 --> 00:38:26,600 The problem is the Navi are portrayed in all three films, 711 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:28,960 but especially in this first one, which sets the foundation 712 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:30,800 for how these movies can move moving forward. 713 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,400 They're all the Navi are portrayed as fictionalized 714 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,280 amalgamations of indigenous cultures, right? 715 00:38:36,720 --> 00:38:39,480 There's not no specificity in the Navi. 716 00:38:39,720 --> 00:38:44,120 They they are made just alien enough that the movie in all of 717 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:48,040 these movies can borrow from real histories and imagery of 718 00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:51,120 indigenous cultures that Western audiences or global audiences 719 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:54,800 that are consuming this content could be sort of aware of or 720 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:58,400 vaguely recognize without the film makers taking any 721 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,120 responsibility for what they're depicting and who they cast 722 00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:04,120 because it's so non specific, if that makes sense. 723 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,080 And I think that's where a lot of avatars issues lie 724 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,520 politically. Because if the Navi were not ten 725 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:14,880 foot tall blue aliens and you remove the digital blue paint, 726 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,080 it would be impossible in and remove the height difference 727 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:21,320 obviously from humans. It would be impossible to defend 728 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:23,560 these movies. You can't defend these films 729 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:25,960 because if you just remove the paint and they become human 730 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:29,160 beings, you look at these films, you go this superficial, you 731 00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:31,680 know, deeply problematic storytelling with tons of. 732 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:36,520 A white savior story which people don't immediately 733 00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:38,440 identify because you're right. Because it's science fiction. 734 00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,320 Yeah, they're like this is a fictional people, the Navi. 735 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:46,480 But you're right, the Navi are a constructed like amalgamation of 736 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:51,560 other in position to like the West like western characters 737 00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:53,800 right of the military and then Jake Sully. 738 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:55,280 Right. And I wrote about this on 739 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,520 Letterbox recently the other day, but I think it's important 740 00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:00,240 to just like repeat. So I'm sorry if people have read 741 00:40:00,240 --> 00:40:04,400 that, but you nailed it to like Avatar. 742 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,600 Offers a very comforting fantasy this first movie in 2009 where 743 00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:11,360 you're watching a seemingly progressive blockbuster that is 744 00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:15,160 also a mega budget escape, you know, roller coaster where 745 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:18,800 audiences and even critics, usually white critics get to 746 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,760 feel like spiritually connected to nature where they feel kind 747 00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,360 of seen like they want to be back in touch with nature and 748 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:26,480 they their. Screen time is up. 749 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:28,720 Yes, right. And they get to imagine 750 00:40:28,720 --> 00:40:33,400 themselves as the quote UN quote good ones who, like Jake Sully, 751 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:36,520 want to live in a pure world, whatever that means to them 752 00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:41,720 without exploitation and walk into Pandora and feel absolved 753 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,120 of their quote UN quote sins rather than challenged about how 754 00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:49,040 they are also being represented on screen by the courage is by 755 00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:53,720 the occupying force, which is I think that dissonance that you 756 00:40:53,720 --> 00:40:57,920 identified is exactly why critiquing these movies feels so 757 00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:01,080 challenging to people like us. Because when you are critiquing 758 00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:03,280 them, you have to be careful because the fandom feel so 759 00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:05,280 personal to them. There's like an there's an 760 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,360 attachment that is moral and political to the movies, if that 761 00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:10,680 makes sense. Not to psychoanalyze the entire 762 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:12,880 fandom, but that's what I've noticed online, even from some 763 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:14,960 of my favorite critics who love these movies. 764 00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:19,840 You can you can sense the the the uncomfortability of trying 765 00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:24,120 to unpack their own connection to these movies and their lack 766 00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:28,400 of like critical analysis of what the Navi, how the Navi are 767 00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:30,840 being Co opted, which basically means how marginalized 768 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:32,400 communities are being Co opted to make money. 769 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:34,320 Yeah. And I think like, if anyone's 770 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:38,800 listening at this point and you're, you're a Avatar fan and 771 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:40,720 we've already talked about like the reasons that like, I can 772 00:41:40,720 --> 00:41:43,080 understand why someone is totally immersed in the world, 773 00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:46,520 but I feel that a lot of people would be like, well, it's not 774 00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:50,240 that serious. You know, it's just like a 775 00:41:50,240 --> 00:41:52,800 fictional story about Jake Sully. 776 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:54,840 It's a love story at at its heart. 777 00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:59,480 And then also like the Navi are a fictional like alien people. 778 00:41:59,720 --> 00:42:04,040 And it is actually is like, I, I would argue that because Avatar 779 00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:08,040 is getting such a big budget and also has such a huge like 780 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,720 audience that's going to see it and is able to because of the 781 00:42:11,720 --> 00:42:14,640 manipulation of the story that we're like having to untangle 782 00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:16,440 and unthread. It actually kind of is that 783 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:20,560 serious, because it's such a a huge project that that people 784 00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:23,520 are are seeing and you're right, like get to just identify with 785 00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:28,400 Jake Sully and immediately like through this like faith kind of 786 00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:33,440 and and magical magically realized awa, like sparkling 787 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:34,680 forest. It's beautiful. 788 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:39,080 They're able to yes, you're right, like be absolved and and 789 00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:42,440 especially like in spider in the third one, it does this like 790 00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:46,120 even more so. It, it is a, a fetishizing of 791 00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:51,120 like a tribal culture in a native culture that James 792 00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:53,600 Cameron continues to do to like the Navi characters in these 793 00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,680 movies that I find to be like incredibly distasteful and like 794 00:42:56,680 --> 00:43:00,120 weird and upsetting. And that I feel crazy coming out 795 00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:01,840 of these movies all the time. Because even though I get 796 00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:03,720 immersed, like I already said in the film making, I don't need to 797 00:43:03,720 --> 00:43:06,120 like give it as flowers anymore. I still go back to read the 798 00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:08,600 reviews and like how are people not talking about this every 799 00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:11,640 single fucking day? That the main character of the 800 00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:16,200 Avatar franchise was forgiven by the God Awa and his brain was 801 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:21,360 connected to a Navi body. And then he becomes not just 802 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,920 like a Navi, but he becomes the chosen settler figure. 803 00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:27,800 Who becomes the king? He, he, he becomes the head of 804 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,840 the the community. He becomes Torok Maktu, who in 805 00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:34,280 this movie, in this franchise, is this historically important 806 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,320 symbolic figure across several Navi cultures. 807 00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:41,000 Yeah, 'cause even the when we get to way of water right, the 808 00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:45,000 sea tribe like recognizes him because this is his only been 809 00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:48,160 done because he he's able to unite all the clans is what the 810 00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:53,560 kind of like the Turok Mach 2 is supposed to represent is 811 00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:57,680 supposed to represent which he does an avatar ash and fire. 812 00:43:57,800 --> 00:43:59,200 Is that the title of the third movie? 813 00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:04,360 Thank you. What she does, but because he's 814 00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:07,920 a white character uniting all the clans. 815 00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:11,600 And you're right, like when the teary says, like my grandfather 816 00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:15,440 was this person also, and it's only happened like since kind of 817 00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:20,640 like the like genesis of our like history, right, Like the 818 00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:24,120 the songs are for what she calls it, but it's only happened like 819 00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:26,240 three or five times. I forget. 820 00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:31,120 But so like the fact that he is the one to do it is already like 821 00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:33,520 a wild thing just at the end of this movie. 822 00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:38,280 And you're so connected to I think Natiri. 823 00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:43,040 And so like, you are connected to the fact that she does like, 824 00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:45,680 love Jake Sully. She's the first one who absolves 825 00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:47,640 him. But it's wild that like a lot of 826 00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:50,720 people really dismiss like, oh, people call this Fern Gully in 827 00:44:50,720 --> 00:44:53,040 space or whatever. And like, yeah, I think it is. 828 00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:54,920 And that's, I liked Fern Gully a lot growing up. 829 00:44:55,720 --> 00:45:00,640 I haven't seen it in years, but it's more so like a Pocahontas 830 00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:02,440 story. Yeah, sure. 831 00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:05,760 There's Dancing with Wolves. Yeah, but it's like I, I guess 832 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:10,360 wild that we at this stage can't like see past a love story and 833 00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:12,160 see like what? What is the main character 834 00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:14,160 representing? Here, my issue isn't that it's 835 00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:17,400 like a like he's a good settler and this is a good settler 836 00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:19,600 fantasy. My issue is not that It's my 837 00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:22,400 issue is that the movies don't operate as cautionary tales like 838 00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:25,040 Jake Solely's arc is. It is not Lawrence of Arabia. 839 00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:26,400 It's not Paula Tradies from Dune. 840 00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:29,600 Does that make sense? Like Paul Treaties works because 841 00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:32,680 the need directs those films and Timothy gives a performance that 842 00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:36,280 conveys manipulation, self-interest, greed, wanting 843 00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:39,120 revenge for the death of his family and his empire and 844 00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:43,960 willing to take advantage of and Co opt millions of people to do 845 00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:46,520 his bidding for him. Those movies are getting across 846 00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:49,600 that commentary quite like subversively and really well. 847 00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:54,840 But Jake is doesn't hate himself for what he stood for as a 848 00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:56,240 Marine. He doesn't hate the Marine. 849 00:45:56,240 --> 00:45:58,880 Yeah, he still heavily identifies as a Marine. 850 00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:00,560 Right, there's not a lot of self-awareness or. 851 00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:05,920 Nuance, you know, like gendered movie 2 of like mother father, 852 00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:09,360 like Jake Sully has all to say in the relationship. 853 00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:13,240 It's kind of wild. Now for The Way of Water. 854 00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:16,600 This movie is like how we already said, I guess, 855 00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:20,560 legitimately good, not because it fixes a lot of the politics 856 00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:22,760 that we're discussing, which are still a mess in this movie. 857 00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:26,280 But to me, the reason The Way of Water Works as a movie and a 858 00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:30,080 story, even with messy politics, is because it reframes the story 859 00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:32,280 around a family movie. Exactly. 860 00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:34,240 Yeah. With the revenge arc from 861 00:46:34,240 --> 00:46:37,000 Courage, which is like just a fun, like almost like Disney 862 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:38,800 villain thing where he comes back from the dead. 863 00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:43,360 It feels like a Disney sequel in some ways, so that that's why I 864 00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:46,360 think strangely the film just works as a family drama with 865 00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:50,000 less political baggage because it doesn't do like the colonial 866 00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:52,360 imperialist stuff and then bite itself in the ass because it has 867 00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:56,120 all these contradictions. Yeah, and it follows the kids, 868 00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:58,240 right? So it's a coming of age journey 869 00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:02,960 for a lot of the movie. And like, LOAC in particular is 870 00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:06,240 having the younger brother, right, is having a really hard 871 00:47:06,240 --> 00:47:09,640 time, like acclimating to this new space. 872 00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:12,800 Natiri, right, had to leave her home and her family. 873 00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:15,040 Her father just died in the last film. 874 00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:15,800 Exactly. Yeah. 875 00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:20,720 So there's a lot of kind of like sacrifice and like personally 876 00:47:20,720 --> 00:47:25,640 and thinking about like the new conflicts as a family as they 877 00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:30,680 are in this new space and took and took took so cute. 878 00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:34,000 I know. And I think like, so that really 879 00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,400 works. Like because we follow the kids 880 00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:40,240 for so much of this movie and we get away from Jake Sully. 881 00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:43,960 Neytiri also has a really strong presence in the sequel in Wave 882 00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:46,880 Water and she's a bad ass fighter and has great set 883 00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:49,800 pieces, even better ones and Fire and Ash which I can't wait 884 00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:54,040 to talk about. Zoe Saldana is actually acting 885 00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:56,440 her ass off in these films which I appreciate. 886 00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:02,320 Even though this is a nitpick, which I know people don't do 887 00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:05,800 against Zoe Saldana unless she's starring in Amelia Perez, I 888 00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:08,720 think her performance in these movies does veer into the very 889 00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:11,000 issue with this franchise when it comes to just like 890 00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:12,600 appropriation. Because I think a performance 891 00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:17,200 veers into a caricature sometimes that I think will be 892 00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:19,280 called racist. If she didn't have a performance 893 00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:22,240 capture suit on that was like colored, you know, digitally 894 00:48:22,240 --> 00:48:25,200 colored blue. And I think if she was just 895 00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:28,680 playing like her, like looking like Zoe Saldana on screen doing 896 00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:32,720 what she's doing, people would say that's racist, I think. 897 00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:37,200 I mean, I think that's, I think that's the situation for most 898 00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:38,520 of. The entire franchise, yeah, 899 00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:39,840 exactly. Because there's like, I think 900 00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:43,200 there's a there's a white boy playing Lowac throughout this 901 00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:46,000 franchise in real life. And like, that's another example 902 00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:49,600 of you wouldn't even think to look, you know, the fans of this 903 00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:52,520 of these movies don't seem to even care if the movies are even 904 00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:56,000 trying to cast from Indigenous communities across the world, 905 00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:57,520 which would be really interesting. 906 00:48:57,520 --> 00:48:59,560 Like that would be an interesting move to try to 907 00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:03,520 design the Navi Indigenous community, these based on 908 00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:06,400 different regions across the globe and cast locally like 909 00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:08,280 that. That would just make everybody 910 00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:10,960 more invested in this franchise. There's not like they're using 911 00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:12,800 Sam Worthington to sell tickets, you know what I mean? 912 00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,400 Kate Winslet, everyone is. That's fucking insane. 913 00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:18,480 Queen of the the Sea Tribe. Right. 914 00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:20,640 And I know there are actually some indigenous people cast in 915 00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:22,680 these movies, but I just mean, like more of the main roles. 916 00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:26,760 Yeah. But yeah, so Neytiri is 917 00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:30,920 interesting in this film, and Zoe Saldana is doing, you know, 918 00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:32,480 I'll give her a credit. She's doing a good job of 919 00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:36,200 conveying really complex human emotions, like rage for the sky 920 00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:39,600 people or grief for the loss of her father or the loss of her 921 00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:42,440 son, the oldest son in this movie, which is just fucking 922 00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:46,120 tragic at the end of Wave Water. It makes me cry every single 923 00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:49,640 time. And Venom. 924 00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:51,320 Wave Water were also introduced to other characters. 925 00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:54,000 Jack Champion's spider is introduced in this film. 926 00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:56,160 Which isn't it? I just. 927 00:49:56,160 --> 00:49:58,240 Don't like this character. Yeah, I know we've already 928 00:49:58,240 --> 00:50:00,000 talked about him a little bit, but I've just never really been 929 00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,120 able to connect with him. I think it's the direction of 930 00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:06,080 the performance, the, sorry, the direction of the performance to 931 00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:09,120 be like, cartoonishly like, cheesy and corny. 932 00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:13,960 And I think the movies would benefit from just letting LOAC 933 00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:17,600 basically be the second protagonist to the two parent 934 00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:19,440 figures, or even the first protagonist. 935 00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:22,800 The franchise keeps defaulting to a human POV because I think 936 00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:24,720 it thinks the audience will connect more. 937 00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:26,520 Yeah. I think the audience will be out 938 00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:29,520 if we don't have a white protagonist. 939 00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:32,520 And I think like the spider thing you can still have, 940 00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:37,120 especially in Fire and Ash, you can still have Loac be like at 941 00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:41,840 the center of that and then have the conflict with Spider needing 942 00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:44,800 the, you know, the humans are going to like try to study him 943 00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:48,120 in reverse engineer the ability to breathe on Pandora. 944 00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:52,200 Like you can still have that in the story and have it be a 945 00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:56,400 meaningful like steak. But yeah, I agree. 946 00:50:56,400 --> 00:50:59,600 I just such a confusing choice. And I think like in this movie, 947 00:50:59,720 --> 00:51:05,240 Spider wasn't as prominent in Way of Water and I liked kind of 948 00:51:05,240 --> 00:51:09,560 like seeing the the different like when Lolac goes out and 949 00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:12,800 meets the whale Piacon. Yes, that was dope. 950 00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:15,760 And then like defends, right? Like Piacon, we spent. 951 00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:18,520 Like 45 minutes swimming in the ocean, It's awesome. 952 00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:21,720 And then it's like also the boys kind of relationship to Jake 953 00:51:21,720 --> 00:51:26,960 Sully, right, where Lolac like kind of is wants to like 954 00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:30,160 disagree with things and and Jake Sully is like know your 955 00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:32,960 place. So like those things, you know, 956 00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:39,160 at least add a little bit of human drama, but that's it. 957 00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:43,560 Curie Curie is introduced in this movie as well, played by 958 00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:45,920 Sigourney Weaver or the voice of Sigourney Weaver. 959 00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:48,600 Maybe the physical performance of Sigourney Weaver 2? 960 00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:52,360 I have no idea. Kind of an odd choice, but 961 00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:56,760 Sigourney Weaver tries her best to, I guess, evoke a teenager. 962 00:51:57,080 --> 00:51:59,800 Yeah, it the character grew on me the second time I watched it. 963 00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:01,880 The first time I was like, this is so weird. 964 00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:03,520 I agree. Why are we doing this? 965 00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:05,360 It worked the second time. But the second time I was like, 966 00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:09,760 OK, I feel like she is, you know, an adopted daughter of the 967 00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:12,800 family. It was a little bit strange when 968 00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:17,000 they first introduced Kiri as really connected to Awa, right? 969 00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:19,040 That's like the first one of the first things we're told about 970 00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:20,400 her. And we're in spoiler territory 971 00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:22,320 now so we can. We've been in spoiler territory. 972 00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:23,360 I know. I'm just reminding people. 973 00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:27,360 Yeah, yeah. And so that was like strange 974 00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:30,840 when we immediately meet her because of the same things that 975 00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:33,120 we've been talking about with like Jake Sully being the focus, 976 00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:34,640 right? And, and being able to do all 977 00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:37,760 these things that haven't been done for generations, right? 978 00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:42,840 So her spiritual connection that is so strong and stronger than 979 00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:45,920 anyone we've seen or, or we don't really meet a lot of the 980 00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:50,080 Nobby people in the first movie either as like characters, we 981 00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:52,880 know who they are but don't really like get to know them. 982 00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:54,680 Right, she's literally chosen as a Messiah. 983 00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:58,000 Exactly. So, so to have her be the Jesus 984 00:52:58,240 --> 00:53:04,480 of Pandora coming from a a sky person who was born of Awa and a 985 00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:09,880 sky person, it is a wild thing to do because it's it is 986 00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:12,400 clearly, you know, obviously this movie is like very focused 987 00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:15,480 on faith. The the Jesus figure, like 988 00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:20,880 Sigourney Weaver is like Mary. So it just in, oh, it was such a 989 00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:24,160 weird thing to do. Well, I mean, I think. 990 00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:26,800 That we can learn, more so in Fire and Ash, but they talk 991 00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:29,680 about it in Way of Water. I do think the main ethos of 992 00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:34,600 James Cameron in in in making these movies is trying to say we 993 00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:37,320 all bleed the same blood, which is not a take I love to hear 994 00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:40,240 from anybody politically. But I do think that in terms of 995 00:53:40,240 --> 00:53:42,080 like what the real motivations are behind saying that. 996 00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:45,200 And I do think that is like a major theme of this biblical 997 00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:48,120 saga that he's making to me. And I think that's the reason 998 00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:53,200 why he chooses the sky person who becomes, you know, a Navi to 999 00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:56,600 become the most spiritual, you know, being on the planet 1000 00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:00,040 because that's his choice. Three times, he's trying to make 1001 00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:01,360 Spider a Navi. Yeah. 1002 00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:05,120 Solely A Navi. This is, like, what feels like 1003 00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:08,160 forced assimilation is also just, like, it feels like this 1004 00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:11,680 strange cultural appropriation just to make a white person feel 1005 00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:14,000 better about themselves. Like, that seems to be like the 1006 00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:16,760 kind of dissonance that Cameron's missing in a lot of 1007 00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:19,440 the storytelling here. Yeah, Well, the interesting 1008 00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:24,560 thing about like AWA at the beginning of this franchise, 1009 00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:28,800 right in the first movie, like AOL was used as a way for Jake 1010 00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:32,040 Sully to kind of like see through new eyes, Like he keeps 1011 00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:34,760 kind of like telling courage to do in the third movie, right, 1012 00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:38,400 that the world isn't like for taking. 1013 00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:43,120 And I think also kind of like opening his eyes to really the 1014 00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:47,360 destruction and death that is really devastating at the end of 1015 00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:51,000 the first movie. And why I understand people, you 1016 00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:54,840 know, can kind of look at the movie, at least the first one, 1017 00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:58,960 in terms of this colonial allegory that we've been talking 1018 00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:01,800 about of like, I mean, it's just like really devastating to see 1019 00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:03,960 the forest, like. Burns incredibly upsetting. 1020 00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:09,920 All the death and and so like a was uses that kind of that kind 1021 00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:16,000 of storyline, right? And I I think Jake Sully like as 1022 00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:19,400 we get the story suggests as we get closer that Awa can like 1023 00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:22,800 help others see. It's kind of like positioned as 1024 00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:28,360 this like not equalizer, but like this this kind of like 1025 00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:33,680 force, right? That his yeah, his like not only 1026 00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:38,520 nature, but like understanding, right, like human connection, 1027 00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:41,920 right. And or just like connection in 1028 00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:44,000 general. And I think that's what James 1029 00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:46,840 Cameron's going for in like what the argument that you're talking 1030 00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:53,320 about that he probably would say that phrase the again, the the 1031 00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:56,480 kind of like issue of like looking at a wise as like a 1032 00:55:56,480 --> 00:56:02,160 political figure in the movie. And and also like pointing to 1033 00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:07,000 Cameron's total like kind of lack of understanding going into 1034 00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:10,800 this to me. And is a strange thing to just 1035 00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:15,600 like accept as a audience is that when we get a sky person 1036 00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:20,440 Jesus figure, it's like very, you know, again, there's a lot 1037 00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:25,720 of like lack of the ability to be like this maps on in a way 1038 00:56:25,720 --> 00:56:32,400 that is favorable or like sorry, maps on in a way that is like 1039 00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:35,240 not an issue in the real world, right? 1040 00:56:35,240 --> 00:56:38,320 Like if we think about how like Jesus is like portrayed as 1041 00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:43,480 white, right, Or we think about like even just, you know, we 1042 00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:45,680 talked about this on the Christmas adventurers 1 battle 1043 00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:49,520 after another. But the the whole like happy 1044 00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:53,120 holidays debacle, like Santa Claus is white on Fox News, 1045 00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:57,000 right? Like that is so embedded in Kiri 1046 00:56:57,120 --> 00:57:01,800 being right a Jesus figure for the Navi. 1047 00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:03,360 Yeah, it's a continuation of the white savior. 1048 00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:06,560 That's why it's like it's just a wild thing to even see that 1049 00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:09,960 happen as a a plot device. And it's, as you can hear from 1050 00:57:09,960 --> 00:57:12,960 us, difficult to unpack somebody else's like inconsistencies, 1051 00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:15,880 inconsistencies as a writer and political contradictions as a 1052 00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:17,760 storyteller. Even though James Cameron isn't 1053 00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:19,560 like the sole writer on these movies, obviously, and there's. 1054 00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:22,360 Yeah, but he has like, if you listen to him, like he has his 1055 00:57:22,360 --> 00:57:24,440 hands and. And stuff, even if it says like 1056 00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:27,520 Amanda Silver, Rick Jaffa, like those are writers who are, you 1057 00:57:27,520 --> 00:57:30,200 know, very successful, worked on the Planet of Apes films. 1058 00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:34,080 There's a lot of Planet Apes DNA in these movies, I think for 1059 00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:36,320 sure. Or vice versa too. 1060 00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:38,800 But yeah, he has his hands on the story. 1061 00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:42,560 Absolutely. I think we can kind of 1062 00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:44,040 transition into Fire and Nash now. 1063 00:57:44,680 --> 00:57:48,080 I I think this I want to do it by kind of jumping to the middle 1064 00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:50,640 of the story real quick and we can go back to the beginning. 1065 00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:52,480 Sorry. I just think it, it kind of fits 1066 00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:53,840 perfectly with what we're discussing. 1067 00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:57,560 Because I think the the big issue I'm having now 3 movies 1068 00:57:57,560 --> 00:58:01,440 into this franchise is that these movies are deeply nervous 1069 00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:05,120 about letting a Navi character kind of fully carry the story 1070 00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:07,280 without a human character taking over. 1071 00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:10,360 And Fire and Ash double s down on that problem. 1072 00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:13,160 And you can tell the writers, I think maybe I'm reading too much 1073 00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:15,560 into this because I have like my own criticisms of the franchise. 1074 00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:19,040 But I think the writers are worried about backlash in this 1075 00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:22,600 franchise in the future because they make the fan favorite Navi 1076 00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:25,840 character Neytiri, who we already said is our probably our 1077 00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:27,240 favorite character of this franchise. 1078 00:58:27,720 --> 00:58:31,400 They make her big quote, UN quote bigoted in Fire and Ash. 1079 00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:36,120 And yeah, let's get into it after her son is killed in 1080 00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:39,480 Scott. What is it way of water by the 1081 00:58:39,560 --> 00:58:43,360 occupying sky people? Which also like a devastating 1082 00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:46,360 like the the end of the first movie was devastating, but a 1083 00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:49,760 devastating thing that also feels manipulative because we 1084 00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:53,040 don't get to really like know the the brother that dies. 1085 00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:55,840 But it works because you're like here are the stakes. 1086 00:58:55,840 --> 00:58:58,960 I respect also that James Cameron like shows death is 1087 00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:00,680 willing to kill like main characters. 1088 00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:05,040 Yeah, in most of his movies. But anyway, it's. 1089 00:59:05,040 --> 00:59:06,760 A child being shot. Yeah, Yeah. 1090 00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:09,680 So it's a it's a serious image, even if it is again going back 1091 00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:15,160 to the blue alien thing. Ultimately her son, her family 1092 00:59:15,160 --> 00:59:18,920 son is killed by the occupying sky people and the film makers 1093 00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:24,040 frame Nytiri's justified rage at the humans, the Sky people as 1094 00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:29,000 quote, UN quote racism, which is fucking insane, insane, insane 1095 00:59:29,160 --> 00:59:33,080 because Nytiri's it's like this character in this fictional 1096 00:59:33,080 --> 00:59:35,400 world. Her hatred of humans is not a 1097 00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:39,000 random prejudice or generalization against human 1098 00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:40,720 beings. It is a reaction to being 1099 00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:43,800 invaded, occupied, and now the death of her son. 1100 00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:48,600 But Fire and Ash keeps reframing her grief rage as quote, UN 1101 00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:51,760 quote bigotry, especially because of the way that they 1102 00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:54,760 frame her talking about Spider and his body and his skin and 1103 00:59:54,760 --> 01:00:00,120 his hands in the writing uses that to redirect critique away 1104 01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:01,840 from the franchise's deeper issues. 1105 01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:04,600 So then you don't think about Jake as a quote UN quote 1106 01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:06,920 problematic good settler fantasy. 1107 01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:09,440 And instead you map on your issues on to Neytiri because 1108 01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:11,680 you're like, oh, this is like a reverse racism commentary. 1109 01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:14,360 This is so interesting, as if she's the one that needs to 1110 01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:17,040 learn. But actually not interesting at. 1111 01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:20,280 All they have the crazy thing is they have Jake monologue to her 1112 01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:23,320 at night time like that. She's the one that needs to 1113 01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:28,240 learn moral nuance which is why they have her like her him 1114 01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:31,200 speechify to her so that she like the audience feels like 1115 01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:33,720 invested in that argument. If that makes sense. 1116 01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:36,280 It's deeply manipulative, and maybe I'm being cynical, but I. 1117 01:00:36,520 --> 01:00:38,160 No it. I don't think I am. 1118 01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:39,720 These are like billion dollar projects. 1119 01:00:40,040 --> 01:00:44,880 It's deeply cynical in like how honestly, like how dumb it is 1120 01:00:44,960 --> 01:00:48,040 and how condescending it is. And I can't believe that I heard 1121 01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:50,840 Zoe Saldana talk about how her characters racist in an 1122 01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:52,640 interview. I can't believe how I've read 1123 01:00:52,640 --> 01:00:56,800 some of my favorite critics from podcasters to, you know, writers 1124 01:00:56,800 --> 01:00:59,400 talk about her characters being an interestingly like 1125 01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:01,680 thematically written character because she's racist in this 1126 01:01:01,680 --> 01:01:03,520 film. It is insane. 1127 01:01:03,520 --> 01:01:05,880 I feel like it's a Truman Show thing where I feel like I'm 1128 01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:09,200 about to step like I'm in like AI don't know a James Cameron 1129 01:01:09,200 --> 01:01:12,640 created virtual simulation politically. 1130 01:01:14,120 --> 01:01:16,360 Anyways, sorry I had to crash out about that, even though 1131 01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:18,640 that's not the beginning. Of the movie, I think that has 1132 01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:22,040 been, yeah, maybe the most shocking thing like because I 1133 01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:23,760 think we've already, you know, addressed many times. 1134 01:01:23,760 --> 01:01:27,040 So at the, you know, I'm sorry we're being repetitive, but it, 1135 01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:30,760 it, the reason we are is because so many people, you know, have 1136 01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:33,840 these movies as like their beloved franchise, right? 1137 01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:35,520 Yeah, it feels like we're reviewing the movie, but also 1138 01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:36,960 talking to that audience. Exactly. 1139 01:01:36,960 --> 01:01:38,960 So it's like I again, I understand you're immersed in 1140 01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:41,800 it. I am too, but like to to 1141 01:01:41,800 --> 01:01:44,920 basically, yeah, reframe the Jake Sully white savior 1142 01:01:44,920 --> 01:01:49,960 character and to hear critics who yeah, like I I think have 1143 01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:54,400 like great interesting takes on other projects and are able to 1144 01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:58,240 see the political aims and other projects or consequences. 1145 01:01:58,440 --> 01:02:04,640 And to frame her character as as racist, like within this context 1146 01:02:04,640 --> 01:02:08,200 and not even address it is a really yeah. 1147 01:02:08,200 --> 01:02:10,480 It's just like a a wild thing to to see happening. 1148 01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:13,200 You're right, it feels. I mean, I don't know what my 1149 01:02:13,200 --> 01:02:14,960 version of the Truman Show thing is, but and. 1150 01:02:15,080 --> 01:02:17,320 They're just trying to get us to be sympathetic to the the Sky 1151 01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:19,040 People because they're going to become the main characters of 1152 01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:21,000 the saga. And I'm sure that Jake and 1153 01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:23,320 Courage and Spider are going to go on some kind of like, 1154 01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:25,760 sacrificial end to this franchise. 1155 01:02:25,760 --> 01:02:30,040 Oh sorry, we also forgot to mention that Spider saves 1156 01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:33,760 courage. And that was crazy. 1157 01:02:33,760 --> 01:02:37,120 That was, and I thought it would be addressed like I thought it 1158 01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:40,360 would be addressed in Fire and Ash where you you basically 1159 01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:45,920 saved this guy who's killing our family, who is a key piece in 1160 01:02:46,160 --> 01:02:49,440 killing all of the nature and wildlife. 1161 01:02:49,840 --> 01:02:52,680 Right. It is very white to forgive 1162 01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:55,600 fascism, right? Star Wars had this issue with 1163 01:02:55,600 --> 01:02:57,720 Luke and Darth Vader. The fandom still has this 1164 01:02:57,720 --> 01:02:59,600 problem to this day. It is a cult. 1165 01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:02,360 I'm a Star Wars fan. I'm not in the cult, but I'm a 1166 01:03:02,360 --> 01:03:06,240 super fan, if that makes sense. And Avatar is becoming that, if 1167 01:03:06,240 --> 01:03:08,160 that makes sense. I'm, I'm gonna have a take at 1168 01:03:08,160 --> 01:03:11,120 the end of this podcast that Avatar films are the new Star 1169 01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:14,240 Wars prequels in terms of the ways in which they're being 1170 01:03:14,240 --> 01:03:17,080 defended. Like it without really any 1171 01:03:17,080 --> 01:03:21,080 critical lens, which I think is like a very specific and unique 1172 01:03:21,360 --> 01:03:24,200 sort of dissonance that's only existed with the Star Wars 1173 01:03:24,200 --> 01:03:27,040 prequels that I find to be like really fascinating pop 1174 01:03:27,040 --> 01:03:29,800 culturally. Well, I think, you know, the the 1175 01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:33,240 story is so watered down again, like the even the military 1176 01:03:33,240 --> 01:03:37,000 people are not like a character. They're just like, you know, 1177 01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:40,320 especially like the New Woman General, Colonel whoever. 1178 01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:42,680 Is like so. Like, yeah, feels like an 1179 01:03:42,680 --> 01:03:44,080 animated character. We don't. 1180 01:03:44,080 --> 01:03:47,160 Yeah, exactly. But you know, the way that they 1181 01:03:47,160 --> 01:03:51,360 are positioned is this like, are these fascist characters? 1182 01:03:51,600 --> 01:03:54,800 And it's like Spider, you like, yeah, that might be your dad, 1183 01:03:54,800 --> 01:03:57,720 but like, you just saved a Nazi. Like the fact that like this 1184 01:03:57,880 --> 01:04:01,760 franchise is not contending with this or again, the fact that 1185 01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:05,440 like, it's not that I need Spider to be this like morally 1186 01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:08,080 or like politically driven character. 1187 01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:11,200 Like you could still have him save his dad because that 1188 01:04:11,200 --> 01:04:15,280 actually would be interesting that he feels like that he has 1189 01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:18,600 some sort of connection or, you know, out of some sort of like 1190 01:04:18,920 --> 01:04:21,560 personal interest of his connection to his father, he's 1191 01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:24,200 going to save. That would be interesting to do 1192 01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:27,800 if you actually followed through and did something with. 1193 01:04:27,800 --> 01:04:29,880 It and deep in those relationships or characters. 1194 01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:35,280 Or like deepened the the reasons which spider felt motivated to 1195 01:04:35,280 --> 01:04:38,320 do that right that. We're having a consequence to 1196 01:04:38,320 --> 01:04:40,680 doing it. Yeah, because ultimately like 1197 01:04:41,760 --> 01:04:46,160 he, you know, like in a teary's right, that spider is a threat 1198 01:04:46,320 --> 01:04:50,160 like because of like that decision that he makes. 1199 01:04:50,400 --> 01:04:53,800 And so like for that for example, though like is again, 1200 01:04:53,800 --> 01:04:55,800 it's not the movie stick. Not even interested in that. 1201 01:04:56,400 --> 01:04:59,160 So fire and Nash picks up immediately after wave water. 1202 01:04:59,200 --> 01:05:02,400 We start with Loac, the youngest brother, the only brother now, 1203 01:05:02,560 --> 01:05:05,080 but with his brother in an afterlife which I thought I was 1204 01:05:05,080 --> 01:05:06,160 like in a different screening for a. 1205 01:05:06,160 --> 01:05:07,920 Second, I didn't understand what was happening. 1206 01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:08,880 Yeah, I. Thought it was cool when we 1207 01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:11,200 figured out what was happening, but they're just hanging out, 1208 01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:14,280 which is sweet and I think a really easy way and fun way 1209 01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:17,240 because it's exciting to be injected into Pandora all all of 1210 01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:19,360 a sudden. It's it's an exciting way to do 1211 01:05:19,360 --> 01:05:22,480 exposition of how the last film ended in the 1st 5 minutes. 1212 01:05:22,800 --> 01:05:26,280 And Neytiri's family is still grieving the loss. 1213 01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:28,800 Obviously if they're oldest, because I think it's only been a 1214 01:05:28,800 --> 01:05:32,680 few weeks or days. Neytiri in particular is really 1215 01:05:32,680 --> 01:05:35,560 muted in the first act. I think Zoe Saldana is doing a 1216 01:05:35,560 --> 01:05:37,920 really good job of just being hollowed out from losing her 1217 01:05:37,920 --> 01:05:40,720 child. But still like emoting a lot 1218 01:05:40,720 --> 01:05:43,000 through her face. Right, It's it's really 1219 01:05:43,000 --> 01:05:47,400 effective acting through the the performance technology to 1220 01:05:47,400 --> 01:05:49,880 represent this kind of like shattering of her life. 1221 01:05:49,960 --> 01:05:52,440 She's doing a great job. Another thing to represent the 1222 01:05:52,440 --> 01:05:55,360 shattering of her life that I thought was like one of the only 1223 01:05:55,960 --> 01:05:58,560 because a lot of the metaphors in Avatar are really like deeply 1224 01:05:58,560 --> 01:06:00,960 explicit. I thought the Broken Bow to 1225 01:06:01,160 --> 01:06:03,720 symbolize what she's been, what she's gone through. 1226 01:06:03,760 --> 01:06:07,040 And this trilogy was actually really interesting metaphor that 1227 01:06:07,040 --> 01:06:10,040 actually had subtext about her relationship to herself, her 1228 01:06:10,040 --> 01:06:13,640 family, who is now pastor mother back in the tribe and her forest 1229 01:06:13,640 --> 01:06:15,000 tribe that she's not with anymore. 1230 01:06:15,160 --> 01:06:18,080 Her culture that's absent from her, her son that's now with 1231 01:06:18,080 --> 01:06:22,880 Awa, her loss or contending with a potential loss of her face and 1232 01:06:22,880 --> 01:06:26,440 her relationship to Awa. She is this Rage Against the sky 1233 01:06:26,440 --> 01:06:29,160 people that is sort of all these things have sort of like 1234 01:06:29,160 --> 01:06:32,320 represented this broken sense of self that I thought the bow was 1235 01:06:32,320 --> 01:06:35,040 pretty cool to like represent that and they ended up bearing 1236 01:06:35,040 --> 01:06:37,000 it anyways. I know I can tell from the way 1237 01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:38,240 you look, maybe you don't care about the bow. 1238 01:06:38,240 --> 01:06:42,560 I thought it was kind of cool in as far as like multi faceted 1239 01:06:42,560 --> 01:06:44,520 symbols in Avatar go. Because there aren't. 1240 01:06:44,520 --> 01:06:47,280 No, I mean, yeah, she is, like, emotionally connected to this. 1241 01:06:47,280 --> 01:06:50,920 It's both like a representation of her culture, her father, 1242 01:06:50,920 --> 01:06:53,040 Yeah. And in the 1st chapter of this 1243 01:06:53,040 --> 01:06:56,120 movie, which basically again is like a, an epilogue to the Way 1244 01:06:56,120 --> 01:07:00,760 of Water, we get a lot of loac, loac loac story development. 1245 01:07:02,040 --> 01:07:05,560 The brother, right? The son, he needs someone to 1246 01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:06,880 talk to. He's struggling. 1247 01:07:07,080 --> 01:07:11,160 His father is an asshole. His mom is clearly emotionally 1248 01:07:11,160 --> 01:07:13,480 unavailable. And so all this comes to a head 1249 01:07:13,880 --> 01:07:17,360 where he is at this Water Tribe meeting and he's being denied to 1250 01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:22,000 speak out, I believe, and where he's trying to protest because 1251 01:07:22,000 --> 01:07:24,440 the elders are deciding to alienate and kind of 1252 01:07:24,440 --> 01:07:27,480 excommunicate Piacon. Thank you. 1253 01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:30,760 And I think immediately after this, his dad straight up 1254 01:07:30,760 --> 01:07:32,760 directly stares him down in his face. 1255 01:07:32,760 --> 01:07:35,560 And it's like, you're the reason your brother died, essentially. 1256 01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:40,400 And in a pretty shocking turn of events, he immediately goes to 1257 01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:43,480 commit suicide. And I turned to Kelsey when it 1258 01:07:43,480 --> 01:07:45,360 happened. And then I was like, is this 1259 01:07:45,360 --> 01:07:47,000 happening? And I looked in my theater 1260 01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:48,880 because I was like looking for children because. 1261 01:07:48,880 --> 01:07:51,520 I know I thought the same thing because I there were kids in 1262 01:07:51,520 --> 01:07:52,360 there. Right. 1263 01:07:52,840 --> 01:07:56,480 And I was like, this seems so unnecessary to include in this 1264 01:07:56,480 --> 01:07:56,800 movie. That's. 1265 01:07:56,800 --> 01:07:58,480 What I was going to ask you, did you think it was a deserved 1266 01:07:58,480 --> 01:08:00,560 moment? Because I'm not saying that kids 1267 01:08:00,560 --> 01:08:02,000 can't handle it. I was just thinking about what 1268 01:08:02,000 --> 01:08:04,000 would I do if I'm a parent and my 10 year old is in the 1269 01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:04,840 theater. Now I have to have a 1270 01:08:04,840 --> 01:08:06,600 conversation about what self harming. 1271 01:08:06,640 --> 01:08:08,520 Imagery, yeah, like it just felt. 1272 01:08:08,880 --> 01:08:11,080 It felt honestly like uncalled for. 1273 01:08:11,080 --> 01:08:16,800 Not that I think that we already got the depths of what LOAC was 1274 01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:19,359 experiencing. We already understood that he 1275 01:08:19,359 --> 01:08:21,640 felt like so disconnected from his father. 1276 01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:24,560 We understood that like Jake Sully was being like so unfair 1277 01:08:25,200 --> 01:08:28,680 in his morning and lashing out at his son and not understanding 1278 01:08:28,680 --> 01:08:32,600 the consequences like of that or the repercussions of that like 1279 01:08:33,439 --> 01:08:37,399 and so we already got the emotional depth like that just 1280 01:08:37,399 --> 01:08:39,880 was not needed. I'm glad you said that. 1281 01:08:39,880 --> 01:08:42,080 I thought it was like the most out of pocket thing I've seen in 1282 01:08:42,080 --> 01:08:46,960 a movie in a long time. And while I appreciate something 1283 01:08:47,120 --> 01:08:49,560 provocative like this in a blockbuster about mental health 1284 01:08:49,640 --> 01:08:54,319 struggles and the obstacles for young people to speak out or 1285 01:08:54,319 --> 01:08:56,279 speak, you know, speak to someone when they're going 1286 01:08:56,279 --> 01:08:58,080 through something or to speak out when you want to make a 1287 01:08:58,080 --> 01:09:00,319 difference in the world like he was trying to do, you know, with 1288 01:09:00,319 --> 01:09:03,439 that protest and then being denied and feeling like that was 1289 01:09:03,439 --> 01:09:06,120 unfair while you're always, while you're simultaneously 1290 01:09:06,120 --> 01:09:08,359 going through this, like, serious tragedy in your family 1291 01:09:08,960 --> 01:09:10,319 and your father won't accept you. 1292 01:09:10,600 --> 01:09:12,040 All those ideas I thought resonated. 1293 01:09:12,040 --> 01:09:14,359 But yeah, I felt it was like, really forced and. 1294 01:09:14,359 --> 01:09:15,399 And strange. Exactly. 1295 01:09:15,399 --> 01:09:17,279 Yeah. Misplaced choice. 1296 01:09:17,600 --> 01:09:22,640 So later on in this movie, Jake is convinced by Natiri to give 1297 01:09:22,640 --> 01:09:25,920 up Spider to protect their family, and they head toward the 1298 01:09:25,920 --> 01:09:27,880 human scientist camp. And I think this is where the 1299 01:09:27,880 --> 01:09:29,640 film really begins. You turn to me and you're like, 1300 01:09:29,640 --> 01:09:31,200 this is the movie now. Yeah. 1301 01:09:31,200 --> 01:09:33,600 I was like, is the was that an hour in? 1302 01:09:33,640 --> 01:09:36,279 Because I think we're, it was like. 30-40 minutes in, I think 1303 01:09:36,279 --> 01:09:38,800 maybe 45 Max, but I don't think it was quite an hour. 1304 01:09:38,800 --> 01:09:42,520 But we we basically get to travel in this cool, like as you 1305 01:09:42,520 --> 01:09:48,160 said earlier, Jellyfish air sailboat with a air tribe, an 1306 01:09:48,160 --> 01:09:50,560 air nomad tribe. We can put that together. 1307 01:09:50,560 --> 01:09:53,040 OK. We don't really meet them for 1308 01:09:53,040 --> 01:09:55,840 very long because Jake's family gets caught in this ambush by 1309 01:09:55,840 --> 01:10:00,680 the ash people led by their leader Verrang, who is the head 1310 01:10:00,680 --> 01:10:04,160 of this volcanic clan who feel that they were, you know, later 1311 01:10:04,160 --> 01:10:07,200 in the film we learn that they feel rejected by Awa. 1312 01:10:08,040 --> 01:10:10,800 And so therefore they reject Awa, They reject this Pandora 1313 01:10:10,800 --> 01:10:14,320 deity and and its followers. And so they basically have 1314 01:10:14,320 --> 01:10:16,600 become, you know, quote, UN quote, radicalized because I 1315 01:10:16,600 --> 01:10:20,640 know it's a loaded term in order to survive through like raiding, 1316 01:10:20,800 --> 01:10:24,240 through extraction resources, kind of acting like this 1317 01:10:24,240 --> 01:10:27,560 military force and in dealing in like neighboring warfare, 1318 01:10:28,160 --> 01:10:32,360 self-interest, you know, tribal interest, no collective interest 1319 01:10:32,360 --> 01:10:34,240 as some of the other tribes have where they're trying to protect 1320 01:10:34,240 --> 01:10:37,760 one another. And the solely's in the middle 1321 01:10:37,760 --> 01:10:40,800 of this kind of ambush get scattered. 1322 01:10:41,120 --> 01:10:43,560 I go to the bathroom. So I get very confused, come 1323 01:10:43,560 --> 01:10:46,080 back and everybody's in different places on the map. 1324 01:10:46,080 --> 01:10:48,880 Felt like a video game. A lot of Avatar actually feels 1325 01:10:48,880 --> 01:10:50,240 like a video game. And maybe that's more of a 1326 01:10:50,240 --> 01:10:52,960 comment on where video games have gone versus these movies. 1327 01:10:52,960 --> 01:10:55,040 I think they've stolen a lot from the Avatar structure. 1328 01:10:55,920 --> 01:10:59,000 Yeah, everyone separated. I think Nitira gets shot down. 1329 01:10:59,000 --> 01:11:01,120 The kids are together right there. 1330 01:11:01,240 --> 01:11:03,160 Yeah, there is also. How does Jake team up with 1331 01:11:03,160 --> 01:11:06,560 courage? At this point in the movie we 1332 01:11:06,560 --> 01:11:11,320 had someone who was like very sick sitting next to us and Trey 1333 01:11:11,320 --> 01:11:15,800 has an immune like issue where like if you. 1334 01:11:16,160 --> 01:11:19,120 I get sick easily. Yes, his cold is a flu or 1335 01:11:19,120 --> 01:11:22,280 whatever. I didn't mean that to be 1336 01:11:22,280 --> 01:11:24,560 dismissive. It's actually true, very true, 1337 01:11:25,440 --> 01:11:28,520 or whatever. You weak man, why? 1338 01:11:28,560 --> 01:11:30,360 Aren't you the protector of this family? 1339 01:11:30,840 --> 01:11:33,400 No, but Trey can get very sick very quickly. 1340 01:11:33,400 --> 01:11:38,720 And so we needed to move seats. And so Trey just like, went to 1341 01:11:38,720 --> 01:11:42,040 get us new seats. And there was also, you know, 1342 01:11:42,040 --> 01:11:43,800 we're at Alamo, so we ordered some food. 1343 01:11:44,000 --> 01:11:45,440 By the way, we were not being dramatic. 1344 01:11:45,440 --> 01:11:49,720 Not being dramatic. This guy coughed literally like 1345 01:11:49,800 --> 01:11:52,440 every 10 seconds for the 1st 35 minutes of the film. 1346 01:11:52,440 --> 01:11:54,800 Yeah, and there was a lot of blowing nosing. 1347 01:11:54,800 --> 01:11:56,880 I'd never experienced it in my entire life and I did not want 1348 01:11:56,880 --> 01:11:59,120 to make him feel awkward by getting up and like switching 1349 01:11:59,120 --> 01:12:01,520 seats. I felt so bad but he literally 1350 01:12:01,520 --> 01:12:03,680 would not stop coughing. It was, yeah. 1351 01:12:03,800 --> 01:12:05,200 And I was like, this is. Wild. 1352 01:12:05,200 --> 01:12:08,560 But then also our food got delivered to their table and he 1353 01:12:08,560 --> 01:12:11,400 put his hand in the popcorn guys, it was. 1354 01:12:11,520 --> 01:12:15,360 And then and then also, I think took a sip of the drink and was 1355 01:12:15,360 --> 01:12:17,920 like, and then wrote a note like, oh, didn't you know? 1356 01:12:18,000 --> 01:12:20,240 No, this isn't mine. Which whatever that happens, 1357 01:12:20,240 --> 01:12:24,520 maybe he's a listener. But well, get some medication. 1358 01:12:24,520 --> 01:12:27,080 Don't go to the movies while you're safe, while you're stay 1359 01:12:27,120 --> 01:12:28,400 home. Stay home. 1360 01:12:28,480 --> 01:12:33,360 And anyway. But then then the same food was 1361 01:12:33,760 --> 01:12:35,720 delivered to us. And I was like, when we move 1362 01:12:35,880 --> 01:12:36,400 seats. Yeah. 1363 01:12:36,520 --> 01:12:39,920 Yeah, I was like And beer. I had to explain to the very 1364 01:12:39,920 --> 01:12:42,520 nice server who was very busy. I was like I'm so sorry to do 1365 01:12:42,520 --> 01:12:44,480 this but. And then Jake ends up with 1366 01:12:44,480 --> 01:12:46,480 Korge. And then Jake ends up with Korge 1367 01:12:46,480 --> 01:12:47,400 somehow. OK. 1368 01:12:48,040 --> 01:12:49,480 I don't think it. Matters. 1369 01:12:50,560 --> 01:12:54,120 So basically in this kind of mix up, the big science fiction 1370 01:12:54,120 --> 01:12:57,560 twist of the movie is that Spider is becoming more and more 1371 01:12:57,560 --> 01:13:01,120 like a Nabi because after nearly dying and his kind of like face 1372 01:13:01,120 --> 01:13:08,600 protective tech air gear Curie connects him through AWA through 1373 01:13:08,600 --> 01:13:10,600 the roots of. Right, the roots, like, go all 1374 01:13:10,600 --> 01:13:13,920 in his lungs. And she basically co-ops 1375 01:13:13,920 --> 01:13:17,520 Pandora's power to mutate his cells and biology. 1376 01:13:17,760 --> 01:13:18,880 Yeah, I think I'm explaining this right. 1377 01:13:19,080 --> 01:13:22,320 To live on Pandora without any of his breathing tech. 1378 01:13:22,520 --> 01:13:25,600 And now he can breathe the air and he grows. 1379 01:13:25,600 --> 01:13:28,960 I think what they call a cue, which is that kind of like it's 1380 01:13:28,960 --> 01:13:32,520 like the connective tissue to to be in touch with Awa. 1381 01:13:32,520 --> 01:13:35,560 But also what we learned in this movie from the no leader of the 1382 01:13:35,560 --> 01:13:38,360 Ash people of Rang. You can also connect to other 1383 01:13:38,360 --> 01:13:40,520 people's. Yeah, and she can, like, torture 1384 01:13:40,520 --> 01:13:41,400 them through it. Yeah. 1385 01:13:41,400 --> 01:13:46,000 Right, so the spider arc now becomes the major plot tension 1386 01:13:46,000 --> 01:13:47,600 of the film an hour into the movie. 1387 01:13:47,600 --> 01:13:53,240 Which I thought was a choice because now he has Navi biology 1388 01:13:53,320 --> 01:13:55,520 and human biology mixed together. 1389 01:13:55,600 --> 01:13:59,400 Which I guess makes him an existential threat for Pandora 1390 01:13:59,600 --> 01:14:02,160 because the humans could potentially reverse engineer it 1391 01:14:02,280 --> 01:14:04,080 and more easily colonize the planet. 1392 01:14:04,240 --> 01:14:08,040 Insane plot on top of plot. Very convoluted. 1393 01:14:09,880 --> 01:14:11,960 I guess you could say it's cool that they got they conveyed all 1394 01:14:11,960 --> 01:14:14,280 that pretty seamlessly. But also I just thought it was 1395 01:14:14,280 --> 01:14:16,960 like it's the most uninteresting character of like the lead 1396 01:14:16,960 --> 01:14:19,320 character of the spider. And so to do it through him, I 1397 01:14:19,320 --> 01:14:21,680 was like, OK, this is one way to make him interesting, I guess. 1398 01:14:22,360 --> 01:14:25,600 So all that is going on. Meanwhile, we have Korich who is 1399 01:14:25,600 --> 01:14:28,440 constantly arguing with military on the human base, which is a 1400 01:14:28,440 --> 01:14:30,600 cool human base. I like that that map. 1401 01:14:30,760 --> 01:14:32,120 If you were. Oh yeah, it looked like a city, 1402 01:14:32,120 --> 01:14:34,640 Yeah. And he's grown so much. 1403 01:14:34,640 --> 01:14:38,960 I need to find Jake Sully and question to you. 1404 01:14:39,160 --> 01:14:43,000 Yeah, We're a little over 15 years from the original release 1405 01:14:43,000 --> 01:14:46,800 of the first Avatar film, and to this day I'm a little bit 1406 01:14:46,800 --> 01:14:52,560 confused about the human motivation to extract Jake Sully 1407 01:14:52,560 --> 01:14:57,600 from Pandora. It's because Jake Sully is a 1408 01:14:57,600 --> 01:15:01,200 tactical threat. They frame it as if, like he, in 1409 01:15:01,200 --> 01:15:04,560 this movie at least. Well, in the Yeah in Way of 1410 01:15:04,560 --> 01:15:06,520 Water also. Like I get why they want the 1411 01:15:06,520 --> 01:15:08,920 unobtainium, which they kind of got away from. 1412 01:15:08,920 --> 01:15:12,400 They Recon that out. They're like, well, you obtained 1413 01:15:12,400 --> 01:15:13,760 the Onitanium, it's not that great. 1414 01:15:14,160 --> 01:15:15,960 And then? Now it's a focus on Jake Sully. 1415 01:15:15,960 --> 01:15:18,960 There's the anti aging serum coming out of the the whales, 1416 01:15:19,680 --> 01:15:21,160 which is the second thing they want to extract. 1417 01:15:21,200 --> 01:15:22,520 But for whatever reason, Jake Sully. 1418 01:15:22,520 --> 01:15:23,880 The whale thing was never clear to me. 1419 01:15:23,920 --> 01:15:27,400 The prime target. So Jake Sully is now a target 1420 01:15:27,400 --> 01:15:34,480 because he is like, bombing the planes that are coming in to 1421 01:15:34,480 --> 01:15:37,160 take over. So it's because he has, like, 1422 01:15:37,160 --> 01:15:39,800 knowledge of what the humans are doing. 1423 01:15:40,080 --> 01:15:45,040 And he knows like, essentially different ways to, you know, 1424 01:15:45,200 --> 01:15:48,000 like blow up the planes. So it's kind of a Caesar 1425 01:15:48,000 --> 01:15:49,440 situation for Planet of the Apes. 1426 01:15:49,440 --> 01:15:51,280 Basically, we have to go and assassinate Caesar because 1427 01:15:51,280 --> 01:15:53,240 Caesar lived with humans. He knows how we. 1428 01:15:53,240 --> 01:15:55,440 Operate. Yeah, interesting. 1429 01:15:55,440 --> 01:15:56,880 At least that's my understanding. 1430 01:15:56,920 --> 01:15:58,520 I mean, that's like, what is they're? 1431 01:15:58,520 --> 01:16:01,080 Really pressed about it though, and it seems kind of easy to 1432 01:16:01,080 --> 01:16:03,960 take a sniper out there and figure it out, but they're not 1433 01:16:03,960 --> 01:16:05,680 getting it done. That's so true. 1434 01:16:05,960 --> 01:16:07,600 It's not like Jake's that good. Like, I don't. 1435 01:16:08,720 --> 01:16:10,080 Anyways, I guess that's the whole point. 1436 01:16:10,080 --> 01:16:11,640 I mean, he's to rock Knock too, whatever. 1437 01:16:13,160 --> 01:16:15,280 Basically Korch is like, hey, I can't get him on my own. 1438 01:16:15,560 --> 01:16:19,400 We need to militarize a warring tribe which becomes the Ash 1439 01:16:19,400 --> 01:16:21,840 people led by Rang. And we learn a little bit more 1440 01:16:21,840 --> 01:16:25,280 about her, that she is this kind of like militant spiritual 1441 01:16:25,280 --> 01:16:28,880 leader, which resonates with Korch as they become a 1442 01:16:29,040 --> 01:16:31,800 romantically involved and there's a drug scene. 1443 01:16:32,240 --> 01:16:37,560 What you think about that? I just like visually interesting 1444 01:16:38,680 --> 01:16:42,120 tribe once I like continuously understood that we're going to 1445 01:16:42,120 --> 01:16:44,800 learn nothing about them. Once the movie was out on them, 1446 01:16:44,880 --> 01:16:48,200 you're like, I'm also out. It was, I was just like, what is 1447 01:16:48,200 --> 01:16:49,920 going on here? Especially because then it's 1448 01:16:49,920 --> 01:16:57,240 like you're not going to deepen their characters or like, yeah, 1449 01:16:57,240 --> 01:17:00,880 just any motivations. Then you also are like just 1450 01:17:00,880 --> 01:17:05,280 sexualizing like the main powerful figure of the tribe. 1451 01:17:05,280 --> 01:17:10,320 It was just so weird to me. Basically Korch effectively arms 1452 01:17:10,320 --> 01:17:13,200 the ash people though and he uses them as a proxy force which 1453 01:17:13,200 --> 01:17:15,760 I thought was thematically relevant considering these are 1454 01:17:15,760 --> 01:17:19,920 like anti colonial text. And I was like, I like that 1455 01:17:19,920 --> 01:17:22,880 possibility of like what that choice meant to what it meant 1456 01:17:22,880 --> 01:17:25,040 for the rest of the stories moving forward because I was 1457 01:17:25,040 --> 01:17:28,800 like, OK, well, Korch does with fire and ash tribe closely 1458 01:17:28,800 --> 01:17:31,480 mirrors a lot of colonial tactics and empire building 1459 01:17:32,480 --> 01:17:34,000 trench Indian war in North America. 1460 01:17:34,240 --> 01:17:36,520 These movies are also like, I mean, that's our most like, 1461 01:17:36,680 --> 01:17:38,360 that's our colonial history of this country. 1462 01:17:38,520 --> 01:17:41,680 But also you can think of the Avatar movies as like post 911 1463 01:17:41,680 --> 01:17:44,360 films where they're clear parallels to like the American 1464 01:17:44,360 --> 01:17:47,040 invasion of Afghanistan and intervention in the Middle East 1465 01:17:47,040 --> 01:17:49,000 and militarizing local militia there. 1466 01:17:49,080 --> 01:17:50,720 And so I was like, OK, where are we going with this? 1467 01:17:50,720 --> 01:17:52,360 Are we going to learn more about the fire and ash people? 1468 01:17:52,360 --> 01:17:53,920 Are they going to be sympathetic figures? 1469 01:17:54,200 --> 01:17:56,280 And then they end up like how you're saying become these kind 1470 01:17:56,280 --> 01:17:59,680 of cartoon, cartoonish extremists that then actually 1471 01:17:59,680 --> 01:18:02,000 play into the tropes of those very commentaries that I was 1472 01:18:02,000 --> 01:18:04,720 just saying about Native Americans in the United States 1473 01:18:04,720 --> 01:18:10,040 or about different Arab groups. And so I was like, how the fuck 1474 01:18:10,040 --> 01:18:11,960 did they mess this up? I couldn't believe that. 1475 01:18:12,000 --> 01:18:14,160 Yeah. And Cameron has talked about, 1476 01:18:14,160 --> 01:18:16,520 like, modern occupations and genocides. 1477 01:18:16,920 --> 01:18:21,400 And so it's so shocking to see how the fire tribe is, like, 1478 01:18:21,400 --> 01:18:24,400 portrayed in this movie, right? Because like each of the 1479 01:18:24,400 --> 01:18:28,920 characters is such a blatant caricature that we've seen as 1480 01:18:28,920 --> 01:18:32,880 like a constructed other in, you know, historically in Hollywood 1481 01:18:32,880 --> 01:18:36,560 and like Westerns. But here, like, you know, 1482 01:18:36,560 --> 01:18:41,520 courage is shown like as or basically the fire tribe is seen 1483 01:18:41,520 --> 01:18:44,920 as like easily, easily manipulated like intellectually 1484 01:18:44,920 --> 01:18:47,520 by porridge. They're like obsessed with 1485 01:18:47,520 --> 01:18:52,880 violence and and guns, right. So just like those scenes alone, 1486 01:18:53,520 --> 01:18:59,000 the imagery is like just so blatantly like dehumanizing. 1487 01:18:59,200 --> 01:19:03,400 But the the other part, right, that is like also very important 1488 01:19:03,400 --> 01:19:07,240 is that the audience doesn't care if these characters die 1489 01:19:07,240 --> 01:19:10,120 because they're portrayed as like these bloodthirsty 1490 01:19:11,480 --> 01:19:15,040 individuals. And so like it that is a a 1491 01:19:15,560 --> 01:19:17,760 shocking thing I think to see in a movie. 1492 01:19:17,760 --> 01:19:20,800 And also, like, again, maybe like a point to like if, you 1493 01:19:20,800 --> 01:19:23,880 know, people have an uncomplicated relationship to 1494 01:19:23,880 --> 01:19:26,960 fire and Ash and are able to just be like, well, yeah, like 1495 01:19:27,200 --> 01:19:29,960 maybe those, you know, characters like weren't super 1496 01:19:29,960 --> 01:19:33,320 well done, but the whole story is this allegory for 1497 01:19:33,560 --> 01:19:35,800 colonialism. But like, is it really? 1498 01:19:35,840 --> 01:19:38,880 And like also especially like seeing some, you know, the 1499 01:19:38,880 --> 01:19:43,280 portrayal of the fire tribe, especially like being, you know, 1500 01:19:43,360 --> 01:19:47,320 a clear example of that. Like I just the I guess it's 1501 01:19:47,320 --> 01:19:52,160 just the Avatar franchise is a mind boggling project. 1502 01:19:52,160 --> 01:19:55,600 There are a lot of convenient readings of this movie and this 1503 01:19:55,600 --> 01:19:58,800 franchise. I think the the word that I keep 1504 01:19:58,800 --> 01:20:00,760 missing that I want to use more often when talking about this 1505 01:20:00,760 --> 01:20:04,480 franchise is well intended. Deeply mishandled. 1506 01:20:04,640 --> 01:20:06,880 So like those are the 2 words, the intention and the 1507 01:20:06,880 --> 01:20:09,840 mishandling of that intention. And I think that is the James 1508 01:20:09,840 --> 01:20:12,200 Cameron project at large. It's also some of my favorite 1509 01:20:12,200 --> 01:20:14,720 directors and their main issues at their projects at large. 1510 01:20:14,720 --> 01:20:17,600 Ridley Scott comes to mind as a director is very similar to the 1511 01:20:17,600 --> 01:20:20,160 ambitions of James Cameron, but operates at the level of a 1512 01:20:20,160 --> 01:20:23,920 Spielberg in terms of like speed in his career making movies. 1513 01:20:24,120 --> 01:20:26,600 But sometimes like you'll hear Ridley Scott or James Cameron 1514 01:20:26,600 --> 01:20:30,760 speak who are very, let's say, confident speakers about their 1515 01:20:30,760 --> 01:20:33,880 motivations and like to hear themselves talk. 1516 01:20:33,880 --> 01:20:35,560 I like to listen to Ridley more than James. 1517 01:20:35,560 --> 01:20:38,280 But they both have, you know, they both suffer from being a 1518 01:20:38,280 --> 01:20:42,080 man Same, right? So I, I'm sympathetic to that, 1519 01:20:42,080 --> 01:20:44,200 but they both talk about their intentions, which are very like 1520 01:20:44,200 --> 01:20:46,400 politically left-leaning. What I mean by that is like 1521 01:20:46,800 --> 01:20:49,320 having critical lenses on the world and how institutions and 1522 01:20:49,320 --> 01:20:51,600 systems work. But they're the way about 1523 01:20:51,600 --> 01:20:55,080 handling those intentions sometimes gets, I think, 1524 01:20:55,080 --> 01:20:59,040 mishandled because of money, frankly, and mass appeal. 1525 01:20:59,040 --> 01:21:01,400 And I think that's, you know, I mean, the, the whole myth about 1526 01:21:01,400 --> 01:21:04,440 James Cameron is that he went up to the the studio and made alien 1527 01:21:04,440 --> 01:21:06,560 and was like money sign after alien. 1528 01:21:06,560 --> 01:21:11,000 Like this guy just he might be anti capitalist when he speaks 1529 01:21:11,000 --> 01:21:13,600 in interviews, but he's making movies that are ultimately kind 1530 01:21:13,600 --> 01:21:15,960 of like perpetuating what capitalism needs, which is 1531 01:21:15,960 --> 01:21:21,440 people to be to basically to manufacture consent from 1532 01:21:21,440 --> 01:21:22,800 audiences. And that's what these movies are 1533 01:21:22,800 --> 01:21:24,400 doing. It's like manufacturing consent 1534 01:21:24,400 --> 01:21:27,680 of just being OK with reducing this tribe to a fanatical 1535 01:21:28,040 --> 01:21:29,960 villains. And the whole thing if people 1536 01:21:29,960 --> 01:21:32,840 are defending, you know, the the fire and ass tribe with like how 1537 01:21:32,840 --> 01:21:36,400 they abandoned they felt abandoned by Awa so they are 1538 01:21:36,400 --> 01:21:38,280 going to then abandoned their morals. 1539 01:21:38,520 --> 01:21:40,720 That is not. That is a theme that they 1540 01:21:40,720 --> 01:21:43,360 deliver in 3 minutes. That does not mean that's a deep 1541 01:21:43,360 --> 01:21:45,200 end idea. Like there is a difference 1542 01:21:45,200 --> 01:21:47,560 between a theme and idea. That's a theme of their story. 1543 01:21:47,560 --> 01:21:49,080 There's not an idea planted there. 1544 01:21:49,080 --> 01:21:52,800 There is not a section of this where we really have a kind of 1545 01:21:52,800 --> 01:21:54,680 investigation of a struggle with faith. 1546 01:21:55,360 --> 01:21:58,440 Yeah, I think that is going to be the how people speak about 1547 01:21:58,440 --> 01:21:59,840 these movies. They're going to talk about them 1548 01:21:59,840 --> 01:22:03,280 as like 5 movie, A5 movie saga. One thing we haven't brought up 1549 01:22:03,280 --> 01:22:05,240 toward the end of this conversation, which we can now, 1550 01:22:05,440 --> 01:22:09,520 is that Avatar, Wave, Water, and Fire, and Ash were apparently 1551 01:22:09,520 --> 01:22:12,080 supposed to be one film, and they were broken up into two 1552 01:22:12,080 --> 01:22:15,280 projects, which makes sense. A lot of the defenders of this 1553 01:22:15,280 --> 01:22:17,880 fandom are using that as a reason to justify this movie's 1554 01:22:17,880 --> 01:22:21,160 mishandling of some of these issues and how they'll later fix 1555 01:22:21,160 --> 01:22:22,920 or correct these things in the 4th and 5th film. 1556 01:22:23,320 --> 01:22:26,400 To that I say it's like that's, that's like defending a 1557 01:22:26,400 --> 01:22:27,720 corporation. Like what are you doing? 1558 01:22:27,720 --> 01:22:28,840 Like what, what are you talking about? 1559 01:22:28,840 --> 01:22:30,440 Get it right. The first time you had $500 1560 01:22:30,440 --> 01:22:31,880 million to spend. Do you know where that money 1561 01:22:31,880 --> 01:22:34,360 could have been spent otherwise? Like what are what are we saying 1562 01:22:34,360 --> 01:22:34,760 here? So. 1563 01:22:35,160 --> 01:22:37,360 Again, like we've talked about in this podcast, been a problem 1564 01:22:37,360 --> 01:22:40,600 from the beginning, so right. Anyway, so the fire and ash 1565 01:22:40,600 --> 01:22:42,640 people are right on board. The military sets up another 1566 01:22:42,640 --> 01:22:44,680 resource grab. This time they want to go after 1567 01:22:44,680 --> 01:22:46,640 the Tolcoon again. We get a lot of these kind of 1568 01:22:46,640 --> 01:22:48,880 poaching sequences that are very similar to wave water. 1569 01:22:48,880 --> 01:22:50,840 They're very devastating. Anytime they shoot like a 1570 01:22:50,840 --> 01:22:53,360 missile into a the Tolcoon's chest. 1571 01:22:53,560 --> 01:22:55,840 That was frustrating. They have a matriarchy which I 1572 01:22:55,840 --> 01:23:00,000 found to be interesting. I like the elders like council 1573 01:23:00,120 --> 01:23:01,560 that you missed. You had to go to the bathroom. 1574 01:23:01,680 --> 01:23:03,840 But I did miss that it like rose up. 1575 01:23:03,880 --> 01:23:06,040 I came back, I felt like. An hour, which is. 1576 01:23:06,040 --> 01:23:10,920 Pretty cool by the by the way, before we can get to it. 1577 01:23:10,920 --> 01:23:13,120 Remind me Spider goes to Titanic heaven. 1578 01:23:13,720 --> 01:23:15,840 Remind me about this well. Wait, that's just it. 1579 01:23:16,440 --> 01:23:19,080 OK yeah so the the the end of this movie is a big on collision 1580 01:23:19,080 --> 01:23:22,280 where basically the Tolcoon are decide not to be pacifist and 1581 01:23:22,280 --> 01:23:24,320 help and it becomes a very violent showdown. 1582 01:23:24,880 --> 01:23:27,680 Jake gives himself up at one point. 1583 01:23:27,800 --> 01:23:29,680 Wait sorry. Before all this Jake goes to the 1584 01:23:30,080 --> 01:23:32,880 the military camp and teary goes to rescue him. 1585 01:23:33,160 --> 01:23:36,760 Spiders also there escapes with his dad's dog tag, which was a 1586 01:23:36,760 --> 01:23:38,560 six scene from spider. Good job spider. 1587 01:23:38,920 --> 01:23:40,760 They escaped together the three of them. 1588 01:23:40,880 --> 01:23:44,120 They teary is a complete badass in this sequence where she's 1589 01:23:44,120 --> 01:23:46,880 like shoot does all these like arrows with the missiles on 1590 01:23:46,880 --> 01:23:48,160 them. Thought that was dope. 1591 01:23:48,440 --> 01:23:50,800 They go they decide not to kill spider. 1592 01:23:50,800 --> 01:23:52,200 It was emotional. I cried. 1593 01:23:52,200 --> 01:23:54,720 It was manipulative because I don't really care about spider. 1594 01:23:54,720 --> 01:23:57,480 But it's just sad to see a character be like I'm going to 1595 01:23:57,480 --> 01:23:59,040 kill my son and the son being like do you love me? 1596 01:23:59,040 --> 01:24:01,480 And he's like, yeah, I do. And it was a. 1597 01:24:01,480 --> 01:24:05,400 Weird scene. Yeah, I, I didn't cry, but I, I 1598 01:24:05,400 --> 01:24:08,240 was like, wow, I'm surprised. Spider can just like come back 1599 01:24:08,240 --> 01:24:10,720 from this. That's well, that's why I was 1600 01:24:10,720 --> 01:24:13,160 like, oh, he's Anakin now, He was Luke, he's Anakin. 1601 01:24:13,160 --> 01:24:15,160 That's a cool thing to do to be like, I'm going to have both 1602 01:24:15,160 --> 01:24:17,280 Skywalker's in one character. How's it going? 1603 01:24:17,280 --> 01:24:19,800 I'm excited to meet this like actor Jack Champion as he gets 1604 01:24:19,800 --> 01:24:21,840 older in these films because he's this is a lot of his 1605 01:24:21,840 --> 01:24:24,120 younger performance. I think this was shot like 5-6 1606 01:24:24,120 --> 01:24:25,920 years ago, which is wild to think about. 1607 01:24:27,040 --> 01:24:30,120 Anyways, not to yadda yadda Spike almost Spider almost 1608 01:24:30,120 --> 01:24:33,160 getting bodied by his dad or you know, his adoptive father. 1609 01:24:34,160 --> 01:24:35,200 But we get to the end of the movie. 1610 01:24:35,520 --> 01:24:39,600 Curie gets closer a was power. We see the 2001 space odyssey 1611 01:24:39,600 --> 01:24:42,800 baby, Nabi baby, human baby. Who knows right? 1612 01:24:42,800 --> 01:24:45,640 This climactic epic showdown. They need the help of a wah to 1613 01:24:45,640 --> 01:24:50,040 defeat the sky people. Jake right now Jake Spider goes 1614 01:24:50,040 --> 01:24:51,720 to Titanic heaven. Do you want to set that up? 1615 01:24:52,200 --> 01:24:55,160 Well, that's after, well, we kind of like, is that the whole 1616 01:24:55,280 --> 01:24:56,720 fight? OK. 1617 01:24:56,880 --> 01:24:58,960 Yeah, right. Because yeah, yeah, that's at 1618 01:24:58,960 --> 01:25:00,480 the end. Of the whole movie, why does he 1619 01:25:00,480 --> 01:25:02,920 go there? But we can just say it's a scene 1620 01:25:02,920 --> 01:25:07,000 right out of Titanic and it feels so weird to to put in 1621 01:25:07,000 --> 01:25:08,840 there. Well, it's because all the Navi 1622 01:25:08,840 --> 01:25:10,400 are like, you're one of us now. Yeah. 1623 01:25:10,520 --> 01:25:12,080 And you're. And as an audience member, 1624 01:25:12,080 --> 01:25:13,080 you're like, why? Why? 1625 01:25:13,400 --> 01:25:16,680 Yeah. Why is he the focus? 1626 01:25:16,720 --> 01:25:19,720 Of And you identified, Yeah, he had met, he had met like 3 or 4 1627 01:25:19,720 --> 01:25:21,160 of the people he first sees. Yeah. 1628 01:25:22,440 --> 01:25:25,840 But yeah, before we get to that, the the whole battle like looked 1629 01:25:25,840 --> 01:25:29,560 really good, right? We had the whole like sequence 1630 01:25:29,720 --> 01:25:35,480 of Jake uniting like the clans, right, and bringing the 1631 01:25:35,840 --> 01:25:37,000 whatever. Like they fly on. 1632 01:25:37,000 --> 01:25:40,640 I'm not exactly sure what they're called, but yeah, 1633 01:25:40,880 --> 01:25:42,960 they're great. So, so then there was the whole 1634 01:25:42,960 --> 01:25:47,520 fight and and the sea tribe and then a lot of the other right 1635 01:25:47,520 --> 01:25:51,960 tribes were actually like gaining, I guess they were like 1636 01:25:51,960 --> 01:25:55,280 winning right at that point against the, the people who had 1637 01:25:55,280 --> 01:25:56,880 underestimated them, the sky people. 1638 01:25:57,160 --> 01:26:01,920 And then we have Korich and the fire tribe come in on the also 1639 01:26:01,920 --> 01:26:03,240 the flying thing. That's right. 1640 01:26:03,480 --> 01:26:05,680 And that was like pretty devastating to see, like 1641 01:26:05,680 --> 01:26:08,520 everyone just get like killed and. 1642 01:26:08,680 --> 01:26:12,920 Including the water kid of the king and. 1643 01:26:13,120 --> 01:26:17,600 Yeah, that was Yeah. And and to see the the queen get 1644 01:26:17,600 --> 01:26:19,720 killed too and like, deliver her baby. 1645 01:26:19,720 --> 01:26:21,600 Yeah, like, that was emotional. Also. 1646 01:26:21,600 --> 01:26:24,000 We forgot at the very beginning. I just don't want to forget when 1647 01:26:24,000 --> 01:26:26,800 they like, bury their child at the very beginning of this 1648 01:26:26,800 --> 01:26:28,320 movie. Or maybe it was at the end of 1649 01:26:28,320 --> 01:26:32,880 last movie when he is absorbed by Awa, the oldest Sully child. 1650 01:26:32,880 --> 01:26:35,080 Yeah, that's the end of wave water. 1651 01:26:35,080 --> 01:26:36,440 Oh, is it? I think so. 1652 01:26:36,640 --> 01:26:38,080 OK, anyway. Deeply tragic. 1653 01:26:38,080 --> 01:26:40,200 That, yeah, I cried at. That, but also beautiful. 1654 01:26:40,680 --> 01:26:41,920 Yeah. OK. 1655 01:26:41,920 --> 01:26:43,800 So back to then the fighting, right. 1656 01:26:43,800 --> 01:26:46,800 So that was that whole fight sequence. 1657 01:26:46,920 --> 01:26:51,440 Looks really good, Yeah. And oh, you already did do this. 1658 01:26:51,440 --> 01:26:53,840 Sorry. And then we jump from rock to 1659 01:26:53,840 --> 01:26:56,800 rock like Revenge of the Sith style with courage verse Sully 1660 01:26:56,800 --> 01:27:00,160 and spiders tagging along. Yeah, I was actually thinking a 1661 01:27:00,160 --> 01:27:04,840 lot about the North men at this final sequence with Courage and 1662 01:27:04,840 --> 01:27:07,880 and Jake Sully, like just fighting on these rocks. 1663 01:27:07,880 --> 01:27:10,120 Yeah, not knowing that you're. I'm not exactly. 1664 01:27:10,120 --> 01:27:15,240 Like, I couldn't totally explain what happens here, Jake said. 1665 01:27:15,320 --> 01:27:19,320 That basically Spider goes over. They're both they're both dad to 1666 01:27:19,320 --> 01:27:22,120 Spider and are trying to save him. 1667 01:27:22,120 --> 01:27:26,080 Right, and Spider is like basically takes a side. 1668 01:27:26,360 --> 01:27:29,200 He's like, I'm staying on Jake's side and he shoots his dad in 1669 01:27:29,200 --> 01:27:32,640 the arm with the bow. The dad's kind of surprised they 1670 01:27:32,640 --> 01:27:34,440 teary shows up. He's like I got a fucking 1671 01:27:34,440 --> 01:27:37,600 surrender now. So he's like he's basically says 1672 01:27:37,600 --> 01:27:39,560 like a joke, like isn't this shit funny? 1673 01:27:39,560 --> 01:27:43,160 And then he falls off. He basically jumps off the 1674 01:27:43,880 --> 01:27:46,440 however physics work on this planet, but the the floating 1675 01:27:46,440 --> 01:27:49,520 rock into the fire, we assume he's alive because he's like the 1676 01:27:49,520 --> 01:27:54,120 Darth Vader of this franchise. And so I I assume he's going to 1677 01:27:54,120 --> 01:27:56,240 come back and he's going to live with the Fire and Ash people as 1678 01:27:56,240 --> 01:27:58,120 we move into the next film, if there's another one. 1679 01:27:58,840 --> 01:28:00,520 I hope not. I don't think he's going to. 1680 01:28:00,520 --> 01:28:02,760 I know you also be the villain, but like it. 1681 01:28:02,760 --> 01:28:06,200 It would feel like we just keep watching the same movie, of 1682 01:28:06,200 --> 01:28:08,680 course, just keeps coming back. It feels like we're building to 1683 01:28:08,680 --> 01:28:12,280 the 4th movie being like a another kind of like war 1684 01:28:12,280 --> 01:28:14,680 conflict between the fire and ash people and all the tribes. 1685 01:28:14,840 --> 01:28:17,000 Then them coming together to realize they have a common 1686 01:28:17,000 --> 01:28:20,040 enemy, which is the people on earth and then going to earth 1687 01:28:20,040 --> 01:28:23,880 somehow, which is very Dune and then going to blow up Earth. 1688 01:28:23,880 --> 01:28:26,200 Like that's what that's what I feel like we're leading to. 1689 01:28:26,600 --> 01:28:31,160 And then the white people turned Navi, you know, the Jakes, the 1690 01:28:31,160 --> 01:28:34,840 courage is that even the Spiders or even Curies, they're going to 1691 01:28:34,840 --> 01:28:38,200 have to sacrifice themselves. If this fucking franchise wants 1692 01:28:38,200 --> 01:28:40,760 to be politically, thematically thoughtful. 1693 01:28:40,760 --> 01:28:44,120 They're going to have to sacrifice themselves to assure 1694 01:28:44,120 --> 01:28:47,560 the survival of the Navi because they are not actually Navi 1695 01:28:48,920 --> 01:28:50,680 interesting and that they're avatars. 1696 01:28:51,280 --> 01:28:53,160 Do you want to So I think we're. Not you're welcome, James 1697 01:28:53,160 --> 01:28:53,760 Cameron. Besides. 1698 01:28:54,000 --> 01:28:56,800 Take it. We're giving that idea for free. 1699 01:28:57,360 --> 01:29:01,640 But we we basically got, yeah, we did the Titanic scene at the 1700 01:29:01,640 --> 01:29:03,680 end and the spider going into like, heaven. 1701 01:29:03,960 --> 01:29:08,920 But you said that you had a Star Wars take of this movie. 1702 01:29:08,920 --> 01:29:12,160 I want to hear it. Yeah, I mean, I don't want to, 1703 01:29:12,240 --> 01:29:15,520 you know, speak too much on this, but this is just something 1704 01:29:15,520 --> 01:29:18,400 that I identified, like when I was prepping for these episodes 1705 01:29:19,000 --> 01:29:20,800 and we did Star Wars this past summer on Patreon. 1706 01:29:20,800 --> 01:29:22,600 So I think I was just seeing some similarities in the 1707 01:29:22,600 --> 01:29:25,760 discourse and fandom around these franchises and obviously 1708 01:29:25,760 --> 01:29:27,720 in the way the franchises are like constructed because both 1709 01:29:28,120 --> 01:29:31,200 the Star Wars prequels, not the original films, the prequels and 1710 01:29:31,200 --> 01:29:33,840 then the Avatar films are both driven by these like, big, 1711 01:29:33,840 --> 01:29:39,000 sincere, ambitious, messy political dramas at the heart of 1712 01:29:39,000 --> 01:29:41,200 like war films. Basically, they're anti 1713 01:29:41,200 --> 01:29:44,800 imperialist, they're anti fascist, but they also show the 1714 01:29:44,800 --> 01:29:47,240 moral decay of fascism, the cycles of violence that is 1715 01:29:47,240 --> 01:29:50,400 perpetuated through fascism. And they're all these ideas are 1716 01:29:50,400 --> 01:29:54,000 filtered through these Messiah, you know, pseudo Jesus, pseudo 1717 01:29:54,000 --> 01:29:57,800 Messiah figure narratives that end up clunky and execution. 1718 01:29:59,320 --> 01:30:03,840 And the the Star Wars prequels were criticized immediately and 1719 01:30:03,840 --> 01:30:06,720 relentlessly when they came out throughout the 2000s, throughout 1720 01:30:06,720 --> 01:30:09,080 the early 20 tens. However, they also pioneered 1721 01:30:09,080 --> 01:30:11,720 digital effects, whether people want to admit it or not, like 1722 01:30:11,720 --> 01:30:14,360 the Avatar digital effects. And a lot of what's going on in 1723 01:30:14,360 --> 01:30:17,360 Avatar does not exist without like the self finance campaign 1724 01:30:17,360 --> 01:30:20,960 from George Lucas to try to get more digital effects designers 1725 01:30:20,960 --> 01:30:24,480 to prepare for the oncoming like CG fest that blockbusters will 1726 01:30:24,480 --> 01:30:28,080 become with the prequels. And so those those movies look 1727 01:30:28,080 --> 01:30:29,880 like shit today. When they came out, it was kind 1728 01:30:29,880 --> 01:30:32,520 of a big deal, even if they were still criticized in in different 1729 01:30:32,520 --> 01:30:35,720 moments in those films. Now, those movies, the Star Wars 1730 01:30:35,720 --> 01:30:38,480 prequels were partially reclaimed by the generation that 1731 01:30:38,480 --> 01:30:40,920 grew up, that grew up with them, like us, right? 1732 01:30:41,360 --> 01:30:45,000 Avatar feels like it's on the reverse arc where Avatar is 1733 01:30:45,000 --> 01:30:48,120 being massively celebrated for being successful and it's 1734 01:30:48,120 --> 01:30:52,120 culturally protected right now, and it's likely in my opinion to 1735 01:30:52,120 --> 01:30:55,360 be re interrogated much more harshly when we've had distance. 1736 01:30:55,360 --> 01:30:57,400 So it is like the complete reverse of what happened to the 1737 01:30:57,400 --> 01:31:01,120 prequels, where I think much like the Star Wars fandom, the 1738 01:31:01,200 --> 01:31:05,440 Avatar fandom will not have a lot of ground to stand on, no 1739 01:31:05,440 --> 01:31:06,880 pun intended, for the Star Wars fans. 1740 01:31:07,840 --> 01:31:11,400 And it's fandom will struggle to defend its political 1741 01:31:11,400 --> 01:31:14,720 contradictions when the criticism begins for Star Wars, 1742 01:31:14,720 --> 01:31:18,800 which has just become much more and like poignant, I think, as 1743 01:31:19,080 --> 01:31:23,320 we've kind of had time to sit from the prequels and and not 1744 01:31:23,320 --> 01:31:26,640 think about Padman, Anakin rolling through, you know, 1745 01:31:26,640 --> 01:31:29,000 Coruscant, whatever together and Attack of the Clones. 1746 01:31:29,200 --> 01:31:31,320 And we've actually got to look at those movies more as like 1747 01:31:31,320 --> 01:31:34,480 these kind of like cautionary tales of the rise of 1748 01:31:34,480 --> 01:31:37,160 authoritarianism that emerges sometimes out of like, broken 1749 01:31:37,160 --> 01:31:39,880 democracies that are really capitalist empires. 1750 01:31:40,880 --> 01:31:42,600 And so that franchise is really special. 1751 01:31:42,600 --> 01:31:45,240 And what was able to do versus Avatar, I think is going to be 1752 01:31:45,240 --> 01:31:47,840 looked at as like this diluted text in like 20 years. 1753 01:31:48,160 --> 01:31:50,120 So that's my that's my take. Yeah. 1754 01:31:50,400 --> 01:31:54,280 I OK, this is a very like I literally just thought of this. 1755 01:31:54,280 --> 01:31:57,400 So like I'm not sure if it exactly maps on, but hopefully 1756 01:31:57,400 --> 01:31:59,040 listeners will understand what I'm saying. 1757 01:31:59,480 --> 01:32:03,200 And kind of like if you're, if you are aware of the the kind of 1758 01:32:03,200 --> 01:32:08,640 joke of the Star Wars, right, like franchise that a lot of 1759 01:32:08,640 --> 01:32:13,880 like conservatives, right map on to like being a rebel, right? 1760 01:32:13,880 --> 01:32:16,320 Like we talked about this, Ryan Johnson has talked about this 1761 01:32:16,320 --> 01:32:19,040 included this joke in one of his Knives Out movies. 1762 01:32:19,040 --> 01:32:22,200 I won't spoil which one, but right. 1763 01:32:22,200 --> 01:32:26,240 So that confusion of like conservatives mapping on to the 1764 01:32:26,240 --> 01:32:33,080 rebels is kind of like how neoliberal audiences are mapping 1765 01:32:33,080 --> 01:32:35,240 on to the Navi. I can't. 1766 01:32:35,400 --> 01:32:38,520 Maybe that's not like a one for one right, But. 1767 01:32:38,760 --> 01:32:40,840 No, I think you're right. I think you've located it. 1768 01:32:40,840 --> 01:32:43,400 OK. But I feel that feels like 1769 01:32:43,400 --> 01:32:45,400 something that's happening. Yeah, no, it feels like an 1770 01:32:45,400 --> 01:32:47,960 evolution of people, like not realizing where they stand 1771 01:32:47,960 --> 01:32:50,560 politically in the moment and then going back and being like, 1772 01:32:50,560 --> 01:32:52,840 well, that was not a good look for me. 1773 01:32:52,840 --> 01:32:55,920 Yeah. So I yeah, I think there's going 1774 01:32:55,920 --> 01:32:57,160 to be a lot of that in the future. 1775 01:32:57,160 --> 01:33:00,200 Or we could be wrong. An Avatar could have like 10 1776 01:33:00,200 --> 01:33:02,960 films and that whoever the next young James Cameron is will, you 1777 01:33:02,960 --> 01:33:08,000 know, be making these movies until we're, you know, with AWA 1778 01:33:08,080 --> 01:33:09,360 ourselves. So. 1779 01:33:09,560 --> 01:33:11,520 It's true until we have our own Titanic scene. 1780 01:33:11,640 --> 01:33:13,120 Is quite a fate. Yeah. 1781 01:33:13,440 --> 01:33:15,000 Who will be in our Titanic heaven? 1782 01:33:15,480 --> 01:33:16,880 Who will make it? Who's invited? 1783 01:33:18,120 --> 01:33:19,360 All right. Thanks for listening to our 1784 01:33:19,360 --> 01:33:23,120 avatar Fire and ash deep dive. I know this was a little bit of 1785 01:33:23,120 --> 01:33:26,160 a spicy critique. I think we tried to be as 1786 01:33:26,160 --> 01:33:29,240 authentic as we could be, yeah. And we were probably repetitive, 1787 01:33:29,240 --> 01:33:32,600 but. Yeah, and we obviously are maybe 1788 01:33:32,600 --> 01:33:36,160 like passionate about our take on the movie, but it's not 1789 01:33:36,160 --> 01:33:39,720 because I'm saying like, you are a bad person for liking Avatar. 1790 01:33:39,720 --> 01:33:42,920 It's just like, hey, I think we should step back and kind of 1791 01:33:42,920 --> 01:33:46,800 like critically look at Avatar. And do you really like agree 1792 01:33:46,800 --> 01:33:48,880 with the ideas that are being presented in Avatar? 1793 01:33:49,560 --> 01:33:52,320 It's an emotionally manipulative story that does have a 1794 01:33:52,320 --> 01:33:55,440 successful like family archive and and familiar tropes at the 1795 01:33:55,440 --> 01:34:00,080 heart of it. And it's OK to reconcile movies 1796 01:34:00,080 --> 01:34:04,640 being inherently, like, provocative to the senses, and 1797 01:34:04,640 --> 01:34:06,800 they're inherently manipulative in that way. 1798 01:34:07,000 --> 01:34:09,560 Like when I watch Black Hawk Down, the Ridley Scott film, I 1799 01:34:09,560 --> 01:34:11,520 go, is this the best movie ever made? 1800 01:34:11,600 --> 01:34:12,960 And then I zoom out and look at the story. 1801 01:34:12,960 --> 01:34:14,720 I'm like, this is deeply problematic. 1802 01:34:15,320 --> 01:34:18,120 And that's just like, that's what movies make you contend 1803 01:34:18,120 --> 01:34:19,920 with, and they make you reconcile all those conflicting 1804 01:34:19,920 --> 01:34:21,240 feelings. And I think Avatar does 1805 01:34:21,240 --> 01:34:22,920 something similar. But for whatever reason, that 1806 01:34:22,920 --> 01:34:26,360 second wave of like critical thought and assessment is not 1807 01:34:26,360 --> 01:34:30,080 happening as much, which I think is just because it's sick to go 1808 01:34:30,080 --> 01:34:32,560 to Pandora. Yeah, Objectively, anything 1809 01:34:32,560 --> 01:34:35,200 extra credit wise that you gave throughout this episode that you 1810 01:34:35,200 --> 01:34:39,600 just want? To say is extra credit singular 1811 01:34:39,600 --> 01:34:44,000 to James Cameron's elephant documentary National Geographic. 1812 01:34:44,000 --> 01:34:46,600 Go watch it. It is wild to see all the 1813 01:34:46,600 --> 01:34:50,080 different elephants living in different habitats and how they 1814 01:34:50,080 --> 01:34:53,960 adapt and it. Yeah, go watch that. 1815 01:34:53,960 --> 01:34:58,160 Anyway, extra credit to obviously the visual effects. 1816 01:34:59,120 --> 01:35:01,800 I think we already talked about Zoe Saldana's performance. 1817 01:35:01,800 --> 01:35:08,120 I think that she does a lot here and adds a lot of emotion to the 1818 01:35:08,120 --> 01:35:10,840 story and that's my extra credit. 1819 01:35:11,120 --> 01:35:16,640 Extra credit to Piacons, whoever the last of his clan was who is 1820 01:35:16,640 --> 01:35:18,920 blinded and tortured of the military. 1821 01:35:18,920 --> 01:35:21,560 Dark way to go out on the podcast, but extra credit to 1822 01:35:21,560 --> 01:35:23,640 that because I thought that was like, I was like, this is the 1823 01:35:23,640 --> 01:35:25,000 direction you should be going in. 1824 01:35:25,000 --> 01:35:28,560 This is brutal and sad and tragic and you stay in this lane 1825 01:35:28,720 --> 01:35:31,680 and do less spider and everybody's going to be invested 1826 01:35:31,680 --> 01:35:33,960 in this like anti colonial allegory like I'm in. 1827 01:35:34,160 --> 01:35:38,480 When in doubt, less spider. When in doubt, less white kid 1828 01:35:38,840 --> 01:35:41,600 with dreads running around being like I'd be faster if I was 1829 01:35:41,600 --> 01:35:42,680 blue. Isn't that something he said? 1830 01:35:42,840 --> 01:35:45,480 Way of water. Oh God. 1831 01:35:45,520 --> 01:35:47,640 All right, that was the extra credits of Avatar. 1832 01:35:47,640 --> 01:35:51,600 We'll be back with, I don't know, Patreon, James Cameron 1833 01:35:51,600 --> 01:35:53,480 Titanic if you want to listen to free. 1834 01:35:53,520 --> 01:35:56,680 Wait to talk about Titanic. We have like 10 free deep dives 1835 01:35:56,680 --> 01:35:59,120 for Patreon members right now in the description of this episode, 1836 01:35:59,120 --> 01:36:01,760 you can sign up and just get a feel for what it's like to 1837 01:36:01,760 --> 01:36:04,720 listen to those live commentary episodes that are very long but 1838 01:36:04,720 --> 01:36:09,120 very worthy of your listen. And if you want to sign up as a 1839 01:36:09,120 --> 01:36:12,240 member right now, we're doing a special 50% off your first month 1840 01:36:12,520 --> 01:36:14,560 as a member on Patreon for the next few weeks. 1841 01:36:14,560 --> 01:36:16,520 I believe it's still a few weeks left on that. 1842 01:36:17,280 --> 01:36:21,280 Get it before it's too late and we'll be back with on the main 1843 01:36:21,280 --> 01:36:26,320 feed 28 years later. The Bone Collector? 1844 01:36:26,320 --> 01:36:28,600 Is that what it's called? What the hell is that movie? 1845 01:36:28,680 --> 01:36:30,520 Yeah, I don't know. I cannot wait. 1846 01:36:30,520 --> 01:36:32,600 I can't believe it's so close together. 1847 01:36:32,600 --> 01:36:36,000 I feel like we just saw the the first movie, but I'm pumped. 1848 01:36:36,000 --> 01:36:37,600 It was one of my. Favorite movies of the year? 1849 01:36:38,120 --> 01:36:40,120 The Bone Collector's a film from Denzel Washington. 1850 01:36:40,520 --> 01:36:42,480 Angelina Jolie. Oh my I forgot about that but 1851 01:36:42,480 --> 01:36:44,040 good watch. Yes, Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1852 01:36:44,600 --> 01:36:48,760 An A+B movie of sorts. an A + C movie of sorts. 1853 01:36:49,080 --> 01:36:49,960 Bye bye.