Hello, welcome to the Extra Credits Plus of Bella.
Bella, today we are talking about Yorgos Lanthimos and Emma
Stone's Poor things. I'm Trey.
And I'm Kelsey. So we are back with Weird Girl
Summer talking about poor things yet again.
This movie is led by a bold, hilarious Oscar winning Emma
Stone performance. We'll definitely be talking a
lot about her career today, maybe even do a a ranking
exercise with her career. This movie is directed by the
wonderfully bizarre and shockingly unpredictable Yorgos
Lanthimos. Today will be our final episode
on Patreon for the Stone and Lanthimos discussion that we've
been having because we just did a favorite last week.
We have not seen Kinds of Kindness yet, so we will be
talking about them again probably in the next few months.
Yeah, hopefully pretty soon. But we are on a Lanthimos and
Stone kick right now and this is the end of our journey.
I'm curious if you feel similarly to me, because I am
really glad we got to revisit these movies.
They are absurd, dark comedies that I've I've loved revisiting.
But also, I'm not going to lie, I'm kind of happy we can take a
break from being in these worlds because they are pretty
upsetting, you know? Yeah.
Yeah, I think that I probably feel similarly like Poor Things
is really fun to deep dive today because it's his most I guess,
like optimistic fairy tale like and sentimental story.
And there are definitely critiques that I have about it
because of that. But it is a kind of like a feel
good fable almost. And it takes a lot of themes
that he looks at in his other movies, but it just doesn't have
that dread inducing, you know, atmosphere created as something
like a dog tooth or killing of a sacred deer.
And we did our ranking on the favorite of our, you know, your
ghost filmography. And those are towards the bottom
for me because they feel like I'm sitting in that that feeling
for a little too long. And it's not completely clear,
like what he I mean, it's clear what he's getting at in certain
aspects, but other things just feel like, you know, I already
got this point. So there's there's repetition.
Yeah. And and I think that's where,
you know, he sometimes is not my favorite director, even though I
really respect how he's able to creatively capture this wild and
and like singular kind of vision that he has.
Right when he's making a comment about like, domesticity and like
the relationships of family and dog tooth.
I think it's interesting. And I like to think about his
movies, but I don't always love to sit in them.
And then there's something like the lobster that's kind of in
the middle right of of those and like a poor things and a
favorite where it has both those elements and it has a really
funny commentary running through it about like monogamy.
But you know, then it has this dystopian story tacked on at the
end that I'm just not as into. And I think like you're far more
into than me. So I, I think, you know, I love
parts of his work. I respect his work, but I also
learn more towards other directors and projects, so I I
am glad to kind of be out of of that world too.
Here's my thing with Lanthimos, and this is not true of every
director, but this is kind of like my logic when it comes to
watching his work. When he is cynical, I find that
there is a lot of realism there. And then when he brings a levity
to it, I'm thinking like, this is a masterpiece.
When it comes to like The Lobster and The Favorite, when
he's optimistic, which is rare, this is a pivot for him in Poor
Things. I think I like being in Poor
Things in this world more than any of his other movies because
it is so elevated in such bizarre, absurd fun.
You know, cotton candy colored ways, pastel filled colored
ways, like costume designs, excellent makeup, hair design,
excellent production design. Wild.
It's such an Immaculate cinematic experience.
But narratively, Poor Things is such a strong pivot for him.
Because when he gives me a little bit of optimism, I feel
the artifice. And then I start thinking, what
are you really doing here? Because this is him trying to be
commercial and it's still successful.
That's not a hit or a critique on him.
It's just an observation. But I agree with you, when I'm
in Killing of a Sacred Deer for too long or I'm in Dog Tooth for
too long, those are very upsetting, disturbing movies.
You know what I mean? I don't totally love that tone.
And it can be repetitive too, because the pace in his movies
has always been a massive issue for him, at least in my opinion.
So yeah, I think Poor Things is the easiest watch.
So I'm interested to deep dive this one today to see how he's
how he's changing as a film maker or to see if this is more
of a one off. And also to see if the way that
people have been intellectualizing this film for
better and for worse, has helped the movie's legacy or hurt the
movie's legacy. Because the reasons I feel Poor
Things is special, I I don't find a lot of people who love
this movie finding similarities in what I think is special about
it or people who hate it. I don't find myself kind of
connecting or crossing over with those groups.
So I'll be interested to pick your brain about what you love
about this movie. Luckily, it still captures all
the things I love about him, which is like, he's so funnily
anachronistic, eccentric, strange, yeah, narratively
surreal. Sometimes he has sharp social
commentaries about what you were saying about monogamy or
domestic lives and constructs. Ultimately, even though I think
the Favorite is probably his most genre accessible movie, I
think that the Poor Things of it all in terms of the narrative
and the femme Frankenstein of it all is conventional and as far
as just audiences being aware of this type of storytelling and
this kind of character journey that Bella Baxter goes on.
So these two movies I think are what he's going to be to be
known for essentially at this point in his career.
They're his biggest blow UPS commercially.
I think critically, they're his most successful movies as well.
But I am really excited to talk more in depth about Poor Things
today because I know we already did a 45 minute discussion on it
about a year ago now. But now that we've had some time
away from it, I'm curious if you liked it more or less this time.
Around yeah, I think it's really interesting because it's not a
movie that is completely settled, but there was so much
discourse around it and we got to see like so many interviews
and thoughts because it was such a prominent like force at the
the Oscars, right? Like it was nominated for so
many awards, won so many awards and was getting a lot of
attention. And I definitely don't think
it's as like, radical as some people, like, were saying at the
time. And, you know, you, you also
don't know how much of that is just like pushing for the awards
race. But also if we're just, like,
looking at the text, too, of what it seems to put forward, it
doesn't feel as like radical as it thinks it might be.
But at the same time, like it is a film that should be
celebrated, definitely deserves extra credit and that we don't
really have anything like it. Like, Yorgos is a really unique
filmmaker. And so I am glad that Poor
Things was so celebrated. Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, it's a it's a really great point.
We really don't have anything that is this overtly like I'm a
metaphor, like this is all allegory.
Here's this like picturesque cotton candied odyssey of a
femme Frankenstein. I think that's a really smart
cinematic adaptation of a very challenging, difficult to kind
of cinematically imagine and visualize Alistair Gray novel.
And that novel is, you know, people who love that book.
I've not read it, but people have said it's excellent, maybe
even better than the the screenplay story of Poor Things,
the movie, which I'll kind of give voice to those, you know,
the fans of the novel later in this episode.
Yeah, I was also looking at that too because I read the about the
end of the novel because I don't have time to read the full novel
and I was interested in the way that the novel actually ended.
And I think I may like to see that more so.
Well, I definitely want to talk to you about that too.
Well, I think one of the reasons he changed it, and I don't want
to step on that yet. So we'll get to that when we hit
the deep dive. That's Patreon exclusive only.
But poor things ultimately, I think I said it a second ago, is
just a very commercial film narratively, right?
It's his least pushy movie to me.
And I I don't think that's a criticism necessarily because
that's just the way the industry works and operates.
We can critique what the story struggles with from the
perspective of looking at it as trying to like speak to everyone
that it knows is going to be in that audience because it
definitely is speaking to a very specific demographic that went
and went to see this movie and made $100 million last year.
So yeah, I'm excited to revisit this.
I'm excited to deep dive it. I think it's really unique to
see a mid tier budget film have this big of you know, this big
of an impact on pop culture. Last year, I think everybody
seemed to know about this movie around our age film Twitter
loved it, Letterboxed loved it, the awards loved it.
So it was a really big deal. And I also don't want to reduce
what it is doing in terms of its themes.
Like on our first episode talking about it on that
passages poor things double feature we did, which I thought
was a lot of fun about power dynamics and what not.
We talked about how this movie, it explores, even if lightly, it
does explore exposing sexual repression because of patriarchy
or religion. And the movie highlights
restrictions on women's bodily autonomy.
And there are many thoughts on women's agency and liberation in
the film. And what we talked about on that
episode was that a lot of those ideas were in the text, but they
were in the text through like, dialogue or through like leftist
iconography, like images. And so a lot of the ideas that
were said aloud or shown in the movie felt secondary to the
world building and really just this journey of Bella navigating
these expectations of men around her.
Yeah. Which is interesting because a
lot of people took those ideas that were talked about or shown
and we're like, this is what the movie's about.
Right when it didn't, I don't know if the movie fully explored
every idea that it like talked about.
And exactly. Yeah, I, I think the, the
movie's interestingly about the the men that she comes into
contact with. And it is focusing on how
behavior is like created through environment.
It's focused on like socialization, right?
It's focused on constructs and how Bella is constrained like in
all these different scenarios. And it's kind of, you know, like
a a fairy tale where she is like meeting all these different
people or like a video game. Honestly, sometimes it feels
like right where she's learning something new or pushing up
against like a boundary. But I, I, I think that it's
fascinating because the, the story, which I didn't really
hear it, it talked about as much like it was, it is focused on
Bella's point of view, but at the same time, it's mostly
focused on how the men are reacting to her, not conforming
to what they expect. And so I, I definitely want to
talk more about that today. Yeah, I think the discourse
around poor things is there's a wide range of feelings people
had about the movie. I think in 2023, filmgoers seem
to have thought, wow, poor things.
You know, if you if you loved it, this is a feminist,
socialist allegory. And Lanthimos they may have
looked at as this political filmmaker and he provokes
politically, but I think the idea of poor things being
feminist or socialist is something that never sat right
with me totally, because I don't know if that's necessarily true.
Not that it doesn't have messages or ideas that are
feminist or, you know, politically to the left, but I
do think his movie and him as a film maker and storyteller have
been sort of misidentified as provocative political film
makers. I think he's way more into
socialization, as you just said. I think he's way more into like,
you know, the kind of the facade of modern civilization, how
we're all kind of constrained by our constructs or empowered by
them in certain cases. And so I think Poor Things was
really commercially interesting again, how it kind of used
leftist words and images to satisfy its audience.
Like an audience who has, you know, in this audience has been
very vocal about it, like been wanting more politically
provocative movies and not be left to watch mainstream films
that are apolitical or highly like conservative movies.
Like we don't have a lot of counterculture or radical films,
especially in our country like the United States in mainstream
in in cinemas today. And so, you know, to be fair to
poor things, it's just cool to have a movie that's talking
about these ideas allowed. But it is far more about
constructs and agency than anything.
Yeah, about class or. Socialism that's like and.
Even when it's there, it feels uncomfortable a little bit.
Because it doesn't. Because it's not fully exploring
an idea and it's still existing within like the capitalist, you
know, system that is in Bellas world.
Yeah, and. It's not really like pushing up
against that especially. We'll talk about the end.
But I think that, you know, you made a great observation when we
were, I can't remember if you said this on our previous pod
where we just kind of like gave our non spoiler thoughts, but
that you compare him to more of like a Wes Anderson.
And it's not to diminish his filmmaking, obviously, Yeah.
Less of a Jordan Peele, more of a Wes.
Yeah, like obviously there's still provocation in what Wes
Anderson's doing or like what Inyorgos is doing, but it's but
I do think you're right, like in conversations and in pieces a
lot, I do see a kind of framing of him as a, a political film
maker, specifically with poor things.
And I think you're right, he does learn more towards the
West, right? He he feels a little bit more
like hands off. And and that's not a a bad
thing, but it's just like different than how people are
talking about him. Because I think that when you do
go for something like Jordan Peele doesn't Nope.
Then there are different stakes to it.
And so I think some of my criticisms might be in the vein
of of that because it feels like.
Totally. I get.
That he's not going all the way with something.
Yeah. It's like, and it's there's a
safety in that that feels like. I feel it the most in poor
things. Yes.
And I think it's fascinating that like he was able to kind of
monetize in this audiences demand for a movie that just
talked about sex, talked about labor or class, talked about
capitalism versus socialism. And then he was like, how can I
do that? But like not in too much of an
exploitative way, but still get people in the audiences to feel
like they watch something intellectually stimulating and
provocative that can stir questions or conversations,
which I do think he was successful in doing.
I just don't think he hoped people would be, like, using all
that language to then try to discuss the movie's text.
I think he was hoping they would just discuss those ideas, if
that makes sense. Yeah.
Because the movie is really just about again, this, you know, I
guess we haven't said it, but like baby brained woman who goes
through like this very fast evolution through a few months
of growing like 25 years intellectually, emotionally,
psychologically, and then kind of never being conditioned by
the this altered reality patriarchy that we see before us
across all these different places we go to in the film.
And he was hoping, I think that people would just run with that
and being like a successful Ben Frankenstein, if you will, verse
people being like, how well is, you know, how socialist is this
movie, like how feminist is. This like I don't think he wants
that like total read, but at the same time like it there is.
But he's he's. Using that there that are fair
to criticize right, So that'll be.
Interesting to talk. About I'm so excited to also get
into the performances of this movie today.
Like we have seen things that we have never seen from.
I think Emma Stone, obviously there are elements of her
performance we have seen before, but this is like something
totally new. So especially with Ruffalo as
well and a lot of actors that I don't think maybe mainstream
audiences have seen before. But we have known, you know,
have been really doing great performances in low budget
movies and independent movies. Yeah.
And I'm just pumped to talk about like the production
design, the costumes, the the performances and everyone who
really created this world because it is really special.
And Emma Stone, who is who is working in an industry that
obviously still like dominated by men and is predominantly like
has been sexist to women. And so Emma Stone becoming this
major name in this industry, now an executive producer like on
this film has her own production company is funding movies this
year that just came out like Problemista and I saw the TV
glow. So her career is also popping
off at the same time of poor things blowing up in this past
year. So I'm really excited to talk
more about her career. I think we can, we should
probably talk about, you know, her trajectory, her trajectory
as this kind of character actor to now star, to now producer and
head of a production company. Yeah, at the beginning of the
movie. I think when we start today's
episode, I think that be most interesting.
I don't wanna wait till the end because at the end I'd like to
maybe look at her work and talk about our favorite movies of her
career. But we are in the La La land
hive. Yes, we are annoying and we
won't shut up LA. La Land Watch.
What is it? There's always like different
means of like those La La Land. The fans are annoying as shit
and that's us and I don't really care like she's Mia to me like I
and they're sad is Ryan Gosling like that's who they are, and so
I am really excited to talk about her today.
She's one of the most incredibly bold and weird and silly and fun
and just highly entertaining actors that we have.
She's basically a comedy, a comedic actor who's like went
from comedies to now serious dramas to now just pure
absurdism. Like she only on her upcoming
movie, she only has Yorgos and Ari Astor.
That's all that's coming out for her right now in that TV show
she's doing. She did.
I haven't seen it yet. Yeah, I haven't.
I watched the first episode and it's not your kind of.
That's Nathan Fielder. It's cringe humor.
Nathan Fielder, Yeah, but not my thing.
But I will watch it. I know I need to.
I just struggle to, I struggle at any kind of like
intentionally cringe humor. The curse, yeah.
The curse yeah, so I will definitely check that out
because it is Emma Stone. All right, so our episode today
is exclusively on Patreon. As always, our Patreon episodes
are deep dives, but they're also live commentary, so we will be
discussing poor things while watching it.
So if you're on the main feed, you're listening to a sample of
this episode. If you go into the episode show
notes, you'll find our Patreon, the extra credits plus where you
can get access to the full, you know, 2 1/2 three hour episode
of Poor Things today, as well as all of our episodes.
This is our 30th episode on Patreon actually, so good job to
you. Good job to you.
Shake hands across. I can't reach you.
Can't reach me because your spine surgery.
That was a bad move on my end. You will find 30 episodes on
there in our catalogue. You can see all the, you know,
organized directors and episodes in there on our collections tab
on Patreon, which is really fun. I take some time putting in some
like little quotes there for the directors.
Yeah, under every image. So I've never received
appreciation for those things. So if you want to check those
out and send me Adm about your favorite, I'd appreciate.
That Trey enjoys finding the pictures and he'll he'll come
down. I always look for photos with
directors with their hands in the photo.
I just think it looks really funny after taking a look at
those episodes. If you're like the shows for me,
I like these people. I like how they analyze things.
They're weird. Perfect.
It's really simple. To sign up, you just click our
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We do have video podcasts coming out very soon and those are
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It's just a whole, you know thousands of dollars being spent
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So we're just reinvesting it for our listeners.
All right, so for anyone who wants to listen and watch a
long. More things with us.
You can stream this on Hulu, so probably Disney Plus in other
countries and maybe in ours as well.
And then you can rent this on VOD if you'd like.
We purchased the Blu-ray, which is expensive because all new
release blue Blu rays are pretty expensive.
But I do recommend it because it is a beautiful case.
Yeah, just the artwork, the art design in the in the the cover
on the on the Blu-ray, but also like the title card of this
movie when it opens and then when it closes, just the
artistic design of this film is beautiful.
Yeah. I love it so much All right, you
ready? I.
AM. OK, and play.
We'll start the movie. 321 play All Right, So Poor Things is a
2023 film directed by Yorgos Lanthimos and written by Tony
McNamara. Based on the 1992 novel by
Aleister Gray. This stars Emma Stone, Mark
Ruffalo as Duncan Whatabun, William Dafoe as God, our Lord
and Savior, Rami Youssef, Christopher Abbott, Gerard
Carmichael, among many other actors who are excellent in this
film. This is a multi genre absurdist
allegory with its Victorian steampunk, you know, world.
It's amazing and it won some Oscars.
It was nominated for a lot of them.
I know Emma Stone won famously. Costume won makeup, one
hairstyle and then production design, I believe.
Yeah, those are the main ones. As for the novel, So this
McNamara script is loosely adapted from the 92 novel of the
same name. It's thematically similar to
Lanthimosa's past films that try to tackle the absurd kind of
contradictions of constructs with silly and vulgar word play.
And the movie kind of takes this refreshing detour towards
something more imaginative. With it being a movie, obviously
it can do that. So it's a vivid, it's pastel
filled, there's quirky dialogue that's delivered in very odd
ways with wonderful production design.
Now, like most adaptations, lovers of the novel were
understandably pissed off by this movie.
That does happen quite a lot, but especially this film,
because this is a movie very much made for politically
curious people and politically curious people who read novels
or or fiction pretty frequently. When movies are adapted from
those novels, they tend to like, want to go see those opening
nights to be like, how smart did you make this?
Because the book is like, very, very smart.
So from what I understand 'cause I have not read the book, the
movie obviously expedites a lot of the novel's ideas and makes
most of the characters but pretty 2 dimensional and lacking
a lot of dynamics that they might may have had in the book.
I want to read the book a lot now because apparently the book
goes way more into like class based hierarchy economically,
emotionally, intellectually and also how people's this society
that Aleister Gray created. In this book, everyone's lives
are built on insecurities, and the book goes to great lengths
to kind of depict the failure of institutions and has a lot of
big ideas about those institutions and the more formal
ones as a reason for why people are so cruel to one another.
And I think a lot of the book readers, from what I gather,
were frustrated with the film because it's so much.
I guess the movie has this ethos of people are just violent and
the world is sort of fucked. And so the best thing we can do
is look at ourselves and see what we can do individually and
looking for our own independence and maybe bring some other kind
of weirdos along with us who are also nice people.
And we can't really try to collectively change society.
So we have to do this kind of like anarchist, libertarian
thing of cratering our own, kind of like commune in the backyard
of God's house. Your own bubble, yeah.
Right, your own bubble sort of. So it seems like a lot of people
are frustrated that Bella wasn't making as many systemic changes
in the movie as she was able to do in the novel, where she was
able to kind of like reform the the brothel or become like a a
doctor, not just a scientist who studies anatomy, but like
somebody who's works in an abortion clinic apparently at
the end of the book. And so some things were pulled
out of the novel and, and, you know, depicted in the movie and
a lot more kind of expedited ways that were a lot less
interesting to the readers. Yeah, and book readers, you can
let us know. But it did seem like there were
in the book a lot more attempts from Bella to try to address
systems. And it was less like neatly tied
like a bow as the movie felt at the end.
And it was kind of one of our when we were walking out of of
the screening originally, we were like, huh, That was like so
sentimental from Yorgos, that was.
Without even knowing anything about about the novel, you're
like, huh, that really lacks some nuance or some interesting
things they could have added. But I mean, the novel, I guess
ends with her being this like revolutionary figure where I
think what we picked up on without even knowing the kind of
novel versus movie discourse was like, oh, Bella becomes kind of
self interested at the end and I'm like happy for her.
Like it's not exactly like condescending girl power.
Like, does that make sense? It's not like that necessarily.
I don't think it is meaning somebody can think that and let
us know. But she did create this kind of
like utopian bubble, and she's studied, she's studying anatomy
and becoming her own God in the movie, which is funny and
interesting. And I think you could even look
at that as kind of in the land, the most cynical lane, which is
that society ultimately is not going to work.
And So what we need to do is just like hang out with our
closest friends and help as many people as we can and maybe take
the brains of the worst men we know and try to shape those as
best we can, which is turning him into a goat.
And so if that's the take away, I think that's funny.
And I think the movie does capture the nuanced kind of
aspiration and optimism of the Bella character enough.
Like I think she does say pretty explicitly a lot in the movie.
Like I do want to make like systemic change, but that is
something she's saying. Quite the world can be improved.
Yeah, you're going to hear a lot of bad like me trying to do
Bella today. So I.
Apologize. Or, or really Mark Ruffalo,
because I love what Duncan Whataburn's up to.
Or at least his performance is Duncan Whataburn.
Mark Ruffalo's up to yeah. But yeah, like Bella being this
radical world changing person, that does suck that that's kind
of missed from the novel. And I guess the novel takes
place in in Scotland, I believe too, and they took that out of
it. And so that that takes away a
lot of that kind of Scotland socialism that the book was so
fascinated by because of the dynamics there at that time too.
And that time that Alistair Grey was speaking about and how it's
affected the contemporary world today, or at least in 1992 when
he wrote the book. And so your ghost kind of
simplifies a lot of those things by putting her in like,
convenient places. He puts Bella Baxter in a lot of
uncomplicated, sorry, a lot of complicated scenarios, and then
comes out of it in uncomplicated, absurd, bizarre,
funny ways. Yes.
Does that make sense? Yeah, and those were like most
of the criticisms that I was writing down as I was rewatching
the movie. I kind of voiced them on our
first Poor Things episode, but now I have them more like
flushed out with the specific scenes like that.
I was like, I don't know that this completely captured what
you were going for. And it's, it's interesting
because you are able to actually see what he is going for because
of what you're talking about earlier, the simplicity of the
dialogue and how straightforward it is.
But yeah, I, I guess like I, I do love this movie, but at the
end it does feel like, well, if it's already a fable and it's
already, you know, an adaptation of a book and you're already
changing it, why not like go for it?
It feels like we're like going full steam ahead for Bella to
want to try to change things. And so because it's already so
heightened and in this made-up world, it would be interesting
to see her actually like, do something with that instead of
just living in God's house and like, reading.
Yes. No, I mean, I totally agree.
I think that this is more what we're talking about probably and
what book readers are frustrated by, which is just like maybe we
have cynically just accepted, I don't think accepted where we
call movies out on their shit. But like the the problem of
studio filmmaking. As these indie film makers who
want to change genres, make unconventional art, come into
the kind of like commercial aspects of this industry,
realize what they have to sacrifice in order to get the
kind of stories that they think need to be told to the public.
They have to kind of maybe sacrifice some of their politics
or morals or ethics, whatever. And so that's just the reality,
I think a lot for film makers who are trying to expand their
power in this space. Wes Anderson's Great Grand
Budapest Hotel is a movie that I cite a lot as the best example
of that, of a filmmaker who is making satires about suburbia
who then transforms into something else and then almost
depoliticizes a lot of his work. And then he kind of comes back
to that kind of realization, I think, and Asteroid City, which
is why I think that's such a fascinating text.
But yeah, your ghost is poor things.
I think this is as commercials we'll see him in over the next
decade, I think. I bet kinds of kindness is
fucking weird. Well, I mean, I do remember
people saying out of reviews that that was closer to a dog
tooth. And you know, that was also his
project, that it was, I think, written by him, Right?
Yes. Actually.
Yes. So we are seeing him come
through a little bit more. I'm fascinated to watch kinds of
kindness I prefer for like Tony McNamara's humor and dialogue to
Jorgos. Yeah, interesting.
I know he writes it with him, but there's a lot of a lot of
the favorite and poor things that really hits in terms of
making the environment like a character and and also.
Hi, hello there, sorry for interrupting.
Yeah, thank you for listening so far and hopefully you are
enjoying the episode so far. I feel like maybe if you made it
this far. They got it this far, they're.
Having a good time? I mean, let's hope.
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