The Hello, welcome to the extra credits of the drama.
I'm Trey and. I'm Kelsey.
Zendaya, Robert Pattinson Two of our movie star goats are here in
a movie together. I feel grateful.
I love these two and I did go into this movie thinking that
this was going to be Notting Hill.
Me too, and that is my fault. Well, that was the marketing.
Also the marketing. And instead we get this, we got
a like a 24 romantic, dark, absurd, psychologically
subversive comedy that is very chaotic.
A movie that I think we both agree is very well made, has 2
great lead performances, is sometimes pretty interesting and
thoughtful ways, and in messy ways too.
But we're kind of split on this movie based on the ride home
from the theater last night and some conversations we had off
Mike. And, and I think it was
interesting 'cause I was hearing similar conversations coming out
of the movie. Yeah, yeah.
I mean, normally like we don't agree on every movie, but I
think we usually come out of the movie theater like being on at
least like the same side of the spectrum.
That's a good way to put it, yeah.
And so this is an interesting conversation because I didn't
hate it or anything, but I don't know that I liked it like I
don't. It's fine.
I thought it was interesting. I know what you mean.
But I don't. Yeah, I don't know.
I'll. I'll figure out my thoughts
today. I do agree, though, that like,
the performances were amazing. Like, regardless of what I
thought of the movie, like Zendaya and Robert Pattinson
just like killed it. Great chemistry.
Yeah. And their individual
performances were just so good. They're it was an unexpected
movie, right. And and I think the marketing,
as you were saying, like we thought we were going to see a
ROM com. We thought we were going to see
Hugh Grant and Julia Roberts like and Rob Pat and Zendaya.
And they sort of give us that in the 1st 20 ish minutes.
Yeah. And I like that there were kind
of four movies in one movie here.
Yes, because I liked all of them.
But I kind of want to see two hours of the 1st 20 minutes.
Me too, I want to see them in in a Notting Hill.
It's so funny. We're like, yeah, Materialists,
it's OK Challengers, it's great, This movie pretty good.
But also can we just get like normal ROM coms that cost like
$20 million so that don't need to be multi genre or multi
toned? Even though I feel grateful for
getting like original movies made for adults like this, even
though it has problems, it still feels unique and it's cool to
see like Zendaya and Robert Pattinson be like Spider Man,
Capital, Batman Capital, Twilight Capital, Dune, and I'm
going to take that and then make the drama.
So that's pretty cool. I was so interested in them both
like while I was watching it and we kind of get the drop at the
very kind of like first third of the movie.
I was like, oh wow, this is so interesting that they both
signed on to this. Like I was just thinking about
like their conversations with their agents and stuff.
I think the. Story is she signed on 1st and
then she brought him on and then she brought him to Denis
Villeneuve for Dune 3. Oh OK.
Yeah, because I think him and Tom Holland were friends and
that's how he met Zendaya. I think he I saw something, I
didn't know if it was made-up, but it was like an Instagram
post of him saying he had worked with Tom a few times, but I
don't want to know what movies those would be.
The Lost City of Z and I forget the other ones.
There's a few. OK, question for you.
I think that this movie is going to be divisive, obviously.
I think it's going to stir some water cooler talk and certainly
be like a debated movie about whether it's good or not and
whether it's commentary is problematic or not, which we're
going to get to today. We'll do a little bit of non
spoiler talk at the beginning here in spoiler talk for the
majority of the episode. But I want to compare this movie
to not only the marketing but the success or effectiveness of
two other a 24 movies that came out last year in the
Materialists and Eddington. Where Materialist was a mostly
unsuccessful commentary but incredibly successful box office
hit. Where it cost about the same as
the drama like 25 mil and it made 100 which is a lot for an
A-24 movie. And then Eddington similarly
cost about 2530 mil and then made half of its budget back,
but was maybe a far more ambitious commentary than
Materialist and then stirred conversations for like 5 months.
Yeah. So which of those movies do you
think the is the drama going to be?
Somewhere in between the drama have yeah, yeah, those are
really interesting movies to compare it to, 'cause I actually
think it has a lot of like things in common with those
movies. I mean, obviously the
Materialists was kind of marketed as a romantic comedy,
but the whole kind of conversation around that was
like people are not understanding it as a romantic
drama. I don't think it was successful
either way. Wasn't funny and wasn't
dramatic. I thought it was like pretty
boring and then unfortunately because we loved like past lives
from Celine song. But I I do think like people
went out to see it because they were expecting romantic drama,
romantic comedy, whatever. It was just a love triangle
between Dakota Johnson and Pedro Pascal and then Chris Evans.
So I think that's why it got, you know, people are obviously
like want more from this genre. They do.
Yeah. Me, you and Tuscany is coming
out in about a month and I saw. That the trailer.
The trailer. At the drama and I was like this
looks pretty good like I I know it OK sorry.
It looks cheesy, has all the cliches of a ROM com, but also
it looks like a Nancy Meyers movie.
Yeah, I thought it looks like kind of a streaming movie.
Yeah. But I'm OK to see movies that
are streaming films in theaters. Like, what was the vacation one
that came out, the one that you watch and you said it was awful
on Amazon Prime? Oh.
God, it was like the Harry Met Sally.
Oh, people, we meet on vacation. Right.
Like I maybe would have seen that in theaters.
I'll never watch it on streaming.
Does that make sense? I.
Went to it like 3 times and I could never do it.
Yeah but I I understand like I do yeah like I do like romantic
comedy. So I just think the conceit is
like a lot and it remind, I think maybe just something about
like the Tuscany of it all is also like the kind of movies
that were made for TV of our generation.
Like do you remember a lot of those the movies of like a
woman, like going to Italy, Like I don't know.
So. We're just a big city, like made
in Manhattan, like movies like that.
Yeah, but I, I, I like those movies so.
Me too. That's what I'm saying.
It would be kind of nice. Do I want to return to 2000s ROM
coms? No, but that's fine because we
can't even get like, like we're not getting really any.
We're getting the drama and I do like this movie, but it does
make me think like I would have just liked I.
Also wanted to see Rob, Pat and the Day in an actual romantic.
Yeah, yeah, I just want to see them in Notting Hill and.
And we could still make it like a broadcast news.
We could still make it. Yeah, a little spicy, yeah, it
could still have a couple twists and turns and be smart and
quippy. But it like to make it
interesting, you don't have to have like the plot that's in
this movie. Although I will say like this
was one of the movies in. I don't even, I don't even
remember the last time like that.
I was surprised, like truly surprised.
Unpredictable. Yeah, like, because I feel like
everything kind of in marketing because movies are dying, you
know, includes the plot or you like have such a sense from like
if it's an Ari Astra movie, that's going to take a lot of
like wild turns. But I, I do think I was like, I
appreciated just something like totally unexpected happening and
I had, I had no idea. That's why I compared it to
Eddington because Eddington is about like the crumbling of
American culture and how violent American culture is.
And then it takes and it kind of keeps you on your toes.
You're like, how much of this is just like a neo Western comedy
about a sad, fragile Joaquin Phoenix?
And then it kind of pivots with the Pedro Pascal character
toward the end where something happens and you're like, oh
shit, this movie just got. Pedro Pascal was in both of
those movies and. It gets really dark and the
drama kind of plays with that expectation a lot in a really
interesting way because it's also what it's commentary is
about when it comes to like Americans being obsessed with
spectacle and violence, which is interesting.
I do I do think that it will have to answer your original
question. I've got like taken off into,
you know, ROM com that was an. Interesting.
Conversation, but I do think it will be more so a conversation
like Eddington, like it will be way more divisive coming out of
the the movie or feel like one of two ways.
And I yeah, we'll talk about it in spoilers, I guess.
But Eddington feels like a different movie.
It felt like kind of an easier and interestingly like an easier
movie to like talk about in. Just like water cooler talk,
right? It was.
More of a coherent through line. Yeah, yeah.
Where here I think people will be like, did you see that movie?
And they'll just like, like, widen their eyes, you know,
like, I don't think they'll. What did it mean to you?
Yeah. Like comfortable to talk about
this movie, which makes sense, but yeah.
When you heard people coming out of the theatre, did people sound
like Alana Himes character or do they sound like Pattinson's
character? Like, do they sound like they
didn't know how to feel, which is like the Pattinson character,
or do they feel feel like they were more self assured and being
like, yeah, I did not like that and This is why.
No, I I didn't hear them have any takes on the actual plot,
but I felt like the conversations I was hearing were
really interesting. Where it like usually I'll like
I usually wait in the hallway while Tray goes to the bathroom
before we go home. And so I'll always get to like
hear, you know what people are saying the reviews.
But there were like people who were like, I don't know how to
feel about this, which is kind of how I came out of the movie
too interesting. And then like in in this one
group, for example, the woman was like, I don't know, like how
to feel like I think I liked it. And then like.
More like, is it OK that I like this or is it truly like I don't
know if I did I? Don't.
I think it was like, I don't know if I liked it like.
Got it. And.
It was a confusing experience. Is that at least what I got from
the tone? And then the one of the the guys
there with was like, I did not like it.
And then the other guy was like, I fucking loved that.
And I was like, that is so interesting.
Yeah, I think it's going. To be a lot of that, I think
it's going to be pretty polarizing.
I mean, I guess those are like, I mean, that's basically the the
spectrum of how you can feel about anything.
But that really is like, yeah, I think it's, I guess sums up like
though particularly how people might feel about this movie.
Like, I don't, I don't know, like what my experience it was
like watching that movie for. Me, it was a really meta
experience. I'm excited to talk about that
and how we had different experiences because when we
start talking on the car ride home, I was like, we did watch
the movie really differently. Like I watched the movie The
entire film as a romantic comedy.
And I watched it like a dark romantic comedy, like a
thriller. I watched it as Phantom Thread,
which is interesting. Yeah, because that movie is
about as a. Thriller, but it's not the same.
That is like a romantic comedy thriller.
Right. But it is interesting because
Daniel Day Lewis's character, sort of a war profiteer off of
almost character in that movie, and she's trying to reconcile
that with her interest in him. And the movie ends with her
basically deciding to poison him and love him for the rest of his
life. And there's something
interesting about this movie and what it's commenting on about
like unconditional love and monogamy.
And it's has similar views I think to Phantom Thread, which
is interesting, even though Phantom Thread is like an all
timer. Well.
Phantom Thread is is playing like it's a thriller in tone and
in the storyline, but the kind of like the kind of like kicker
is that it is actually a romantic comedy.
Once you like rewatch it and you're like, oh, yeah, I got it.
This one is more like this is a romantic comedy.
There's a thriller heavy like weighing on this.
But you're right. I think you are right to watch
it as a romantic comedy like. I never once that's too spoiler
early. I'm not going to say that never
mind. OK, so and I also say if people
haven't seen this movie, we're about to get into like just more
clear, non spoiler thoughts just to convince you to go see this,
because I do want this movie to make more money than what it
costs because you'll get more movies like this.
But it's not as dark as people keep saying it is.
I want to state that I'm seeing a lot online about how dark this
movie is. I think the jokes are dark and
they're sometimes thoughtfully dark and sometimes other in
other ways, like contrarian ways kind of dark.
And maybe you could say it's a little bit of an edge lordy
commentary, even though I think it is a little bit more nuanced
than that. And I know I'm being vague and I
apologize, but I promise, like you, you might not like the
movie, but you won't go. That felt like it.
It probably won't trigger you hopefully, right?
There are triggering things, but it's not something that is like,
I don't know, people are talking about it, which is very funny as
the most dramatic movie out right now, which is a part of
the commentary of the movie, which is like the movie didn't
do anything. It just talked about something,
which is about the commentary of the film with Zendaya's
character of not doing anything but thinking of something.
And so it's like an interesting meta reaction that's going on
right now. And I would say that like, you
know, the movie could veer into like a feel bad movie, but it.
Does toward the end it? Does toward the end, but at the
same time like it, it's not it. It's not like overwhelming the
whole time with that. It's more so like in a, in a
sort of dilemma that the characters are all kind of
grappling with in real time and you're also like experiencing
the dilemma in real time as an audience member and a lot.
Of credit goes to Pattinson because he brings a lot of silly
energy to otherwise pretty serious scenes.
Yeah. But I wouldn't say that overall
it's like a total feel bad movie.
It's just in the end the the wedding is it's.
Dramatic. Yeah.
OK, so quick housekeeping. We've been doing a lot of short
form content, TikTok, YouTube, Instagram.
I've been very, you know, honest that I don't naturally like
doing short form stuff. I know that sounds like weirdly
pretentious, like why? It's just like making a minute
or two-minute long videos, but that's just like not my
personality. It feels a little bit
superficial to me, but I'm getting more comfortable with it
and we are growing at a pretty good pace, especially on TikTok.
So you're doing a great job. Thank you.
If you want quicker reactions to movies that we see, like I cover
the the drama last night, then that's where to find us.
And then over on Patreon, we got a ton of episodes over there for
obviously subscribers. There's like over 100 episodes,
but for free members right now you can have access to
Interstellar, The Nice Guys, Dune, I think Little Woman is
still on there. Phantom Thread, Speaking of it
is on there. I think we're putting on our
Challengers episode for Zendaya because we just rewatched
Challengers, which I want to talk to you about, about what
that experience was like toward the end of the pod because I
have extra credit to give to Zendaya as a performer today on
this episode, which I'm really excited to.
And how, you know, speaking to your point of like how we want
smart ROM coms that are still playing ROM com genre
conventions, Challengers, is that like we just rewatched it
and we were like, holy shit, this is a 5 star sports movie
and romantic comedy movie and sort of like an erotic drama.
Thriller clap at the end on our couch.
We did, but I remember for the first time watching it getting
like, my eyes were tearing, but with excitement.
And when Zendaya is like looking at her boys being like, come on.
I'm like, yeah. I think we both also like got
super teary eyed. That's what I said, yeah.
Yeah. Oh, I thought you meant the
first time you watched it. No.
Not the first time, it's. Most recent time, yeah.
I thought that was interesting. We were.
More emerged connected. To the characters.
OK, so non spoiler pitch to go see this movie.
This is like how we've been saying a romantic comedy,
psychological thriller, sort of a social satire set around this
wedding and between Zendaya and Pattinson's characters.
And it's built around a very simple but very uncomfortable
question, which is what would you do if you're about to marry
someone and fully commit to them, build a life with them,
and then you find out something about their past that just
completely rewires how you see them as a person.
And Pattinson's character goes through this dilemma, as Kelsey
said. And the movie basically plays
from both Zendaya and Pattinson's characters, POV's
and shifts between them pretty equally throughout and around
second, the second-half of the movie, to me at least, it kind
of mostly stays in Pattinson's psyche.
I think so. And we stay in his world.
And then when we're with Zendaya, we're sort of in a more
stunted time jumping place that I don't want to talk too much
about to the spoilers. And the movie plays with the
idea that Pattinson's character is not really contending with
something bad that his partner literally did.
It's something they almost did, something they considered doing.
And I think that's a really important point because the
movie is constantly playing with that distinction and what that
says about the characters, what that says about the audience of
the film. And our audience last night was
a very reactive audience. So maybe there's some things we
can bring up from different scenes.
I think it says a lot about performance in relationships.
It says a lot about judgement in relationships.
So I thought it was a pretty fascinating conceit and concept
at the center of like a ton of well executed ROM com and kind
of romantic thriller conventions.
So my non spoiler spoiler thoughts are basically that this
could have just been a really effective cliche ROM com like we
said at the top and it has moments of that, but it is
actually just like a really well crafted multi genre multi toned
honestly, which should be a blockbuster.
I I was really impressed by this movie and I want people to go
see it. I didn't.
I won't say I loved it. I really really liked it though
and I respected it. I respected some of the swings,
even not all of them landed. Yeah, I I think people should go
see it just because of like again, Sedan, Robert Pattinson,
it's just interesting like that they took this project and I do
think there is something interesting happening inside of
it. So it'll be out at the very
least. I I guess like talking to people
after it, like who you go see it with might be, I don't know,
just interesting to see how people viewed the movie.
Like we viewed it differently and we'll talk about today.
So yeah. But I mean, you, you explained
far better why people should go see it.
Like the tone, the the filmmaking.
Like it does have a lot of great like ROM com editing in the
beginning. And then I guess it, yeah, the,
the kind of like point of view, then it's something I want to
talk about today. Like I had a little bit of time
to to think about in terms of like how the movie was like
playing with the audience. Yeah, and some good just like
crafts people stuff going on here, like and also good
editing, very good jump cutting going on in here for comedic
timing, not necessarily horror. The film grain looks really
strong. I love the colours in this
movie. I don't know if you thought that
while watching it like sitting in their apartment in New York
City. Like I was just like wowed by
the just the production design and the way the colours looked.
The costumes looked really good where everyone actually felt
like real peoples and Dan Pattinson are beautiful people
but they looked normal like you could actually be friends with
them versus. Like Dakota Johnson wearing all
these like more heightened. Materialistic world.
Yeah. So yeah, I honestly, I just like
highly recommend it because I think it's going to be an
interesting movie to talk about for the next few months.
OK, spoiler, spoiler warning. This is going to be a heavy
spoiler conversation, so please leave if you have not seen the
movie. Kelsey.
Well, I would guess I was going to ask did you like the movie?
But I guess you already said we can just go rag us into more of
the plot. Yeah, I mean, but I don't, Yeah,
I don't know, like I think. I feel like we should start with
this conceit. Then before we even hit the
story, before we go to the meet queue, I feel like we should
just talk about what's really interesting about this movie,
which is it's like main conceit and what it hinges on.
Because otherwise, I think we're going to be talking around it.
Yeah. Zendaya's character reveals that
when she was a teenager, she planned a school shooting, and
she ultimately did not go through with it, but she planned
it. She practiced it and she lived
in that mindset of a school shooter.
And we go through a lot of time jumps throughout the movie to
show that. And what's interestingly, like
what's interesting in the structure of this movie is that
does a smart escalation where we get to watch these two
characters, Zendaya and Pattinson, fall in love with
each other. And then eventually we're in the
present timeline, their wedding week, which is where the
majority of the movie. Stays.
Yeah. They're doing the food tasting,
yeah. Yeah.
And they're like, on their, you know, I think at one point
they're on their way home from the insane dance instructor
who's, like, an asshole. And they think they see their DJ
doing heroin on the street. And that becomes a conversation
about whether or not to fire her.
And that scene then turns into this drunken dinner table debate
with a couple of friends because they're explaining all this to
them about whether, you know, everyone has done bad things and
who should, like, be forgiven for doing bad things, depending
on what those bad things are. And it turns into this like, you
know, the infamous confessional game of, like, hanging out with
other couples and getting too drunk with them, which is like
doing stupid card games like 1:00 AM.
Like, that's basically what this turns into.
And then saying something that you sort of regret.
And the scene starts off as a little bit funny, a little
casual, then starts to kind of like drag in pace purposely and
it starts to become a little awkward and it creates
attention. I know it was intentional.
I didn't. I still don't love how it was
paced, but I know that's a part of the the point.
And the groomsmen I think admits to using his girlfriend at the
time well. Alana Himes says like, first,
let's all share what the worst thing we've ever done is.
And it's kind of like using her partner as like a way to
jumpstart that. And because she's like tell them
and he doesn't want to tell them.
And so he he's like, no, I'll just tell it.
He uses like his ex-girlfriend as a a human shield.
He says when a dog like a tries to attack them.
I don't know if you can hear my cough, sorry.
And then Ilana Heim like acts essentially as a hers is like
equal that she locked a child when she was AI guess like a
teenager or a child that she locked a child in a abandoned
trailer closet and then left him there all night in the.
Middle of a forest or something? Yeah.
Yeah, And that he was like, screaming.
And she got scared and ran away. And then there's like a search
party. His dad came to ask, you know,
is he like, have you seen him because you were last with him?
She lies. And then the next day, like,
they find him, but he was there all night.
And so you're like. And the day is like, well, if
they didn't find him, would you have, like, told someone?
And she's like, obviously, yeah. Which in that moment, before we
have anything else revealed, it's supposed to be like, she
probably wouldn't have told anyone because then like if
something bad had happened, then she wouldn't like want because
of her her idea of like running away or being fearful, then why
would she like make the decision to like tell someone?
So like, I guess in the moment, the audience are like, Oh my
God, that's like fucked up. So and it like purposely wants
you to judge Alana Heim's story. And then Rob Pattinson says if
he like cyber bullied someone, but he's being so Robert
Pattinson about it. He's like, like, it sounds like
it's. Like, the most we've ever seen
Pattinson be himself, yeah. He's like, I don't know, like
and they're like, wait, but did it actually happen?
And they're like, well, he moved and then half with.
Her, he goes. I am Gen.
ZI. Am Gen.
Z so so there's that the whole that whole part where Robert
Pattinson and his is seen as like, I guess the least, you
know, bad at that point 'cause he kind of like brushes it off
and gets to do this kind of like thing.
Also that like men kind of get to do of like, I guess I won't
be too specific about it 'cause like, I haven't really thought
about it and like, I don't, I don't know, like that kind of
thing. So we just kind of like brush
past it and his friend is like, that doesn't even count
whatever. Although there's a whole movie
about Robert Pattinson's Worst thing and it's called All My
Friends Hate me and I really recommend.
I was thinking about that movie The whole time we were watching
this movie, which I actually think is a better version of the
drama. These are all like social
thrillers, basically. But go a similar to this movie
if you have you know, not like heard anything about all my
friends hate me. It's a movie that I was on Hulu,
but go watch it. It has Tom Sturtton who has been
like a supporting actor in a lot of different movies of like Poor
Things and Barbie. I think he's like magic Ken,
right? Anyway, but go if you thought
the drama was even at all interesting, just go watch that
and don't look anything up about it anyway.
It's all the. European humor, which makes
sense from this filmmaker. But then we get to Zendaya and
you don't know if like, because Robert Pattinson, it was just
introduced that he was like, not joking, but like not totally
reflective about it. So it came off as this like sort
of half foot in, half foot out thing.
And then when Zendaya says hers, I think everyone in the theater
kind of has the moment of like everyone at dinner where you're
like, is this the. Air left the room.
Yeah, including in our audience. And it's revealed that that's
because I didn't know going into the movie.
It got spoiled for a lot of people online.
And I stayed away from it. And I told people in the
comments, like leading up to it from TikTok, I was like, if you
say something, I will block you. Yeah.
Luckily no one said anything, which made me have hope in
humanity. But yeah, it's, it's very dark.
Pattinson's killing in the scene.
Zendaya's doing a lot of good reacting, a lot of good reaction
shots. And then it's a mix back from
the other two performers. And we can talk about them a
little bit later. But you know, to go off what
you're saying, like 20 minutes or so, you know, into the movie
after that scene, Zendaya's character basically goes through
this like psychologically volatile experience of imagining
how Pattinson's character will react to her.
Now that he knows this information and Pattinson's
character, correct me if I'm wrong here, he tries to get
motivations out of her, some kind of reasoning for what she
did. And so he.
Can make sense of it, right? Yeah, it's.
Some kind of moral or empathy based justification for why she
would even consider doing that or consider not doing it to the
point where he starts narrative Izing it himself and she's like,
that's not even true. And then he has to like tell
their friends later in the movie that that is his truth now that
that's how. Yeah.
We get like a flashback from his point of view at one point,
yeah. And she's sort of not giving him
much because it seems like she hasn't been able to or given
access to totally process this very dark time in her life.
Or at least that's how I took it.
And then the movie shows her back story again through like,
flashbacks that are sometimes serious, sometimes absurd.
The next 30 minutes where there's moments of her trying to
record a manifesto, then the camera like, cuts out on her or
the computer needs to update. And the film makers are playing
with the tone in a way that I think is actually like, somehow
successful and not problematic. Yeah, it got laughs from our
theaters because it's not like making light of the the subject
matter or violence of that, but it was like making light of like
kids who feel lost and what culturally they have to turn to.
And and the idea again, like that she like didn't have
resources and we'll we'll talk about that as we get into like
the kind of like judgement towards her character.
But yeah, I think it was like it didn't hit in a way.
Like there are other things that I felt like the movie could have
like played into a contrarian lane, but that one wasn't
necessarily one of them. Like, I think the the laughs
were like, it was, it was a really interestingly balanced
tone that I haven't seen before. Yeah.
I think what's really interesting about this movie,
and I'd like to talk about the conceit with you about the
school shooting like concept to put that into a film like this.
Because this movie is basically about spectacle and being
critical of it and an American culture's obsession with it.
But it's also a movie being sold as if there's something super
dark that happens in the film, like in the marketing and in the
movies. Just like Maine Conceit, like it
wants audiences to talk about something bad that happened in
the drama I. Thought someone was going to die
at the end. I was waiting for someone to get
killed and. They allude to that.
I mean, there's like a a wedding shooting dream sequence or
nightmare sequence. And it's, it's just really
interesting because there's a lot of spicy word of mouth or a
lot of gossip about what the drama even is in like the media
right now in comment sections on videos about the drama.
And ironically, the movie is sort of criticizing that gossip
cycle. It's criticizing the ways in
which we profit as a country or culture and feed off of other
people's struggles. And we were talking about this
when we drove home last night. Like I asked you like, did you
think that this dangerously leaned into being contrarian
cinema where it's sort of being like, I don't know, criticizing
cancel culture or something like that?
Or sort of like indicting in an edge Lord way, like quote UN
quote thought crime, you know, like and what where did you
ultimately Like now we've had 20, not even 24 hours, but now
that we've had almost a day away from the movie, where do you
ultimately sit with that? Like, do you feel like this
movie was mostly thoughtful and how it handled that conceit
versus the way the Internet is sort of treating it in this very
much more like polarized way where it was like, either
extremely problematic to even inject that into this commentary
or that, like, that guy said that he loved it probably
because he felt like it was like observing hypocrisy that made
him feel seen on screen. Yeah.
That's I think. I think I when I walked out of
it, I was like, this was interesting because it's
introducing this idea of like there there's just like this
conversation one night that people were having with their
friends and essentially like Alana Himes character actually
like did something that was horrible and Zendaya's character
like thought about doing something horrible.
It's not a. Importantly, her fiance did
something horrible that he seems to only flippantly sort of
respond to. And to own up to, yeah.
And. On the way to work this morning,
I kind of realized like, oh, he's like marrying somebody he
victimized in high school and she's marrying somebody who is
like a boy I. Didn't even put that together.
A. Bully to her.
Except they never knew that about each other.
Yeah, because they've been performing to one another.
Yeah, and I think the movie wasn't comparing like what Alana
Heim did to the actual like act of what Zendaya like could have
done, Zendaya's character could have done.
Like I don't think it's comparing those two things.
I think it's comparing the the amount or like the volume of
outrage towards the idea of like someone actually doing something
like terrible and people kind of being like, Oh my God, that's I
can't believe you did that. Like we're going to kind of be
quiet out of though, because like maybe it doesn't like
represent who you are today or something like that.
But it's still like fucked up. And then verse like someone
saying like I thought about doing this and like the the I
guess like subject that it is, people are are, I guess like far
more like immediately stunned, don't know how to talk about it.
And so like, I think that was that was interesting because a
lot of Heimlich who just divulge something, you know, the
character is supposed to be like someone who just divulge
something like terrible that they did, but it's so quick to
like judge someone else. The probably the contrarian part
of it that felt like a little bit in the zone of like a Ruben
Uslund. Like even though I love force
majeure, I think triangle of sadness veers into Elaine.
We had a whole conversation about it, but I don't enjoy and
human. Beings are just performing their
identities and kind of making fun of identity politics in a
lot of ways. Yeah.
So I do think though, that there was like something there that
felt like if you applied this metaphor, I guess, or if you
applied that idea of like, well, because Alana Heim's character
actually did something and someone thought about something
else. Like it's the fact that we can't
handle, quote UN quote, the fact that someone would think about
doing something else. That was the part of like, OK,
well, if you apply the metaphor of the movie to other things,
it's not always A1 for one. And I think that is what made it
makes it complicated. And that's what it made it feel
a little bit like contrarian and, and kind of like in the
lane of what you're talking about before of like cancel
culture has gone too far. So I, I think because of like,
obviously the moment we're into when, when I see like a movie
that sort of like aligns where I can see people could interpret
it that way and then run with it.
That's what I get a little bit like hesitant, I guess, or
skeptical of the movie and. What's come out about the
director in the last few weeks, which is a little bit more
complicated because we don't have too much information on it,
but like that, maybe if you want to look into that, please do
because I think it tells you a lot about maybe where he got
this idea from, right? Which was feeling like he was
being punished for crimes that he felt he wasn't committing.
And so then that's interesting because then this movie then
feels a little bit opportunistic considering, like, what he knew
he probably was going to get quote, UN quote in trouble for
as he became more famous. Ultimately, I think Zendaya and
Patterson took it for, like, as movie stars.
They took it for thoughtful reasons.
I think it's like an actual commentary they were trying to
explore about Western culture being hypocritical.
Yeah. So I, I think that in one, one
side of it, it's like, it felt like maybe also because of what
I knew about the director that someone can make it and be like,
like people are going to judge people for like the darkest
thoughts that they've had. And I was like, that feels like
a man who doesn't want to get cancelled or made this movie.
But I think in terms of like, I, when I was thinking about it, I
was like, why do Robert Pattinson and Zendaya take this
movie? And I was like actually thinking
about the reaction to Zendaya and how.
And then I kind of like had some time to reflect on it too today,
where I was like, I, I kind of think the movie was interesting
in that I was in Robert Pattinson's shoes throughout it
and didn't even kind of realize if that makes sense.
Like I, I, I think like we were almost like having Robert
Pattinson's like perspective pushed on us.
And then a lot of himes as like a another side of that spectrum.
And I at the end of the movie, I was like, I don't know how to
feel because it feels like so sad at the end.
But then today, later, I was like, actually I think Zendaya
was like way too nice to him. Oh.
Yeah, I was like, wait, I think she was like way too forgiving.
She's she's playing a tragic character.
Yeah, of, of him. And I was like, and I guess like
I didn't realize that Robert Pattinson was like sort of even
though it's realistic for him to have this kind of break of like
they don't even have time to talk about it or process it.
And it, it's just so it is realistic in the sense that it's
like Zendaya wouldn't want to talk about it all at that
moment, like right before their wedding since they have like 2
days and they have flower appointments, photographer
appointment. And but Robert Pattinson is
like, I kind of like want to know for his own self, I guess,
like, which which does make sense, you know what I mean?
Like it makes sense. It feels like a realistic
dilemma. So you understand why he is
going through all the, like, emotions that he is, but he's so
stuck inside himself, like you said, trying to find a reason
and motivation and it like, interrogating her where he comes
to the conclusion of like, oh, actually maybe she didn't get
help instead of starting there. You know what I mean?
Like, yeah. Or asking questions like, oh,
your dad was in the military. Oh, he kept weapons around the
house. Like, just things like that,
that he clocked at the wedding. Yeah.
Or just like, you know, instead of like asking her for reasons
and then she has to like slowly reveal that she was bullied,
right? Like so there was a lot of like
really interesting stuff. I guess because Alana Imes and
Robert Pattinson's like character.
I don't remember any of the characters names, but their
perspective is so like pushed on the audience because that is how
I guess like you know, people are react would react to that.
It it almost like wrong foots you to then like once you sit
with the movie, you're like, wait, it's a pretty tragic movie
because the day I was is so like has been so lonely throughout
her life and has been seeking community and then her character
even in her later life, like just once, like Robert Pattinson
don't love her. And I was like, that is tragic
and also like, she probably doesn't deserve like what he was
doing so anyway, especially. When it's revealed, like her
deafness is a product of like, self harm essentially like
things like that, like symbolic of self harm, like there was
just a lack of empathy in his character.
And I think it was saying, you know, they were trying to use
the fact that he was like this museum architect and that he was
like focused on aesthetics. And when he saw Zendaya, he
didn't really care about her intellectual or emotional
intelligence. He cared about how she looked
like somebody he wanted to be married to.
And even when he saw the book she was reading, he never really
cared to look into the Goodreads reviews or whatever.
He just wanted to know the title and a quick maybe synopsis.
And I'm sure that book would have told him everything he
needed to know or questions he should have asked.
And the fact that he never read it when he's revealing that to
his, you know, groomsmen and when he's going through his
speech and he's making his groomsmen cry, which is like a
pretty good speech, but also filled with cliches
intentionally. It's just a really good I like
you said, wrong footing because it makes you go, you know, for
the quote UN quote critical thinkers in the audience, like,
Oh, I don't relate to Alana Himes character.
She's supposed to be a mirror to the audience to make us see like
how judge mental and narcissistic and self interested
we are. But really the wrong foot is
like they want the the film makers want you to connect to
Pattinson's character into like see his POV and to understand
why he's being cautious or to understand why he's even
considering like as his Co worker would have done, turn his
partner into the police for thinking something once you like
15 years ago. So I found that to be like
really successful. And I don't think a lot of even
some critics who are hating on this movie are giving giving
that commentary like a lot of nuance because it's so easy to,
you know, just cut this movie down and say that's an
intentions are just purely opportunistic, even though,
again, like I already said, I think there are opportunistic
elements to it. What really resonated with me is
like how it is flipping the mirror on the audience and being
like Western culture is hypocritical, but not for like
shallow reasons. It's saying the culture is
judgmental of violence, but it's also a culture that conditions
and victimizes the youth who are put inside a violent environment
and then and then indicts that generation as they grow up and
they to become violent or territorial because they haven't
gotten or received help or rehabilitation or.
Have resources. And so it felt like a massive
criticism on basically this violent American disease that is
like infected everyone in the movie.
I like how it provokes adults to start thinking as if like
anybody could be a quote UN quote school shooter.
And there's a moment where Pat since explaining this to the
other two supporting characters and they go around like keeping
new people in New York City who look like they're on the verge
of crashing out. And I thought that was really
effective because schools are a microcosm of America and and we
are in a school quite often throughout the movie and time
jumps and trying to show that. But it was actually more
effective commentary to then twist it on and flipping the
instincts of the audience to realize that actually the person
next to you is like just one bad day away.
And I thought that was like, and it wasn't being judgmental of
those people. It was actually these people
need help and instead like their loved ones don't even really
want to know truly who they are because they might turn them in.
And like, that is actually, I thought a pretty incisive look
at American culture at this moment.
It feels it feels like it's going to be a period piece one
day because of how willing neighbors are to turn in their
neighbors and not it's, you know, it's not even that.
It's like the calls coming from inside the house, like your
partner might feel like they are obligated to turn you in like
that. That is a scary concept, even if
it's coming from a film maker, Like how we already said
opportunistic. And maybe he's doing this for
problematic reasons. But Ari Astor produced this.
You could tell there are other lies on this, like screenplay or
story. I'm sure Zendaya and Pattinson
too, Like it is a very well realized political commentary.
So yeah, I cosign like a lot of the observations are making
about it. But yeah, I think you're going
to be really understandably sort of annoying about this this part
of the movie. I either, there's some things I
get, like I've read some arguments that using school
shootings as part of a commentary in this way is just
like, inherently exploitative. And I think that critique is
fair. Yeah, totally.
I, I think the thing that bummed me out about the commentary is
how it approaches women as school shooters.
Yeah. We talked about this last night
a little bit. Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, I think #1 like, having, like, young girls, but
also a young black girl, like, be someone who's planning a
school shooting felt like, and I was also one of the reasons I
walked out. I was like, I don't know, Like,
I don't know about this movie because it felt like it was
using like a young black girl to like, talk about an issue that
like young white boys. Are predominantly experiencing,
yeah. And like, not that it's not
calling attention to like, maybe like reasons, I guess, right,
that things might like happen or like the lack of resources that
children have in the violent environment that they're in.
It's like, I think, you know, I'll be interested to see how
people walk away from the movie because in the school scenes,
like the bullying and then the the, the scene where you like,
obviously when she joins the OR like she cries and then looking
at the girl who she's been fanning, fantasizing about like
killing and then she joins the like.
Activist Group Activist. Group yeah like it's so obvious
that her character like wanted community and we have this whole
other narrative of like Robert Pattinson asking people in his
life that like. Because he's freaking out about
it and he is essentially like making Zendaya's character like
more vulnerable right before like their wedding in terms of
like telling someone for his own, I guess like processing
who's like a Co worker, you know, and then and then also
like a lot of the like psychopath, like being thrown
around, right. So like you and and the movie's
like playing with you too. Where I was there were sometimes
like at the end of the movie, I was like, is she going to stab
him? Like is that what the movie is
leading us towards? Because his back was like open
at the very end when he's like dancing with himself.
So interesting, I saw another critic write the same thing and
I didn't have that experience at all.
Interesting. So because I, I was like, OK,
like This is why that it was also why I was like, I don't
know, like what's happening here?
Because I thought they were showing us like things, things
that were again, like telling us that Zendaya's character like
wanted community. Like it was kind of like
explaining the, the, the, the conceit, I guess of like, it
wasn't just like supposed to be shocking.
It was like, here's the kind of like background or like in the
flashbacks, but but I think the the playing with all the other
characters being like, well, yeah, like the the Co worker
being like, yeah, I called the cops on like my partner if I
found out at age 40 that at like, you know, when they were
15, they like thought about this and then.
We meet her partner and we're like, I get it.
Well. She's like, isn't that what
you're supposed to do? And she's like.
Have you met? Which, by the way, absolutely
love her. I was in love.
Holy shit, Yeah, we have some things to say about some of the
supporting crew. Some of them not great, some of
them very good. So that person's name is Hayley
Gates. And you, you asked me.
You turned me in the theater. Where do we know her from?
We just watched her two nights ago in the rewatch of
Challengers. Because she's the woman that
Joshua Connor tries to hook up with.
So he's a place to. Stay in.
The hotel. Yeah.
Wow, she's also in other things too, but yeah.
That's so weird. I was in love with her.
She had. Great chemistry of Pattinson.
Yeah, like they had a very funny chemistry.
Definitely, Yeah. But I it's crazy because, like,
walking out of the movie, although I'm in love with
Zendaya and in love with Robert Pattinson, I was like, Oh my
God, like I have a crush on her. She's crazy.
I get it. But I, yeah.
Anyway, yeah. They were so like, funny and
interesting together and weird. Zoe Winters was really good as
the I. Was just going to say too, yeah
a lot of really fun, like side performances.
Just to wish she was telling Pattinson.
Yeah, smile like you're a human being.
Yeah. So just normal, Yeah, the way.
He kept opening his mouth and expanding it as to stretch it.
Like we've all been there. It's like a very funny, like
you're just like, not in the mood and someone's trying to
take a picture of you for whatever reason.
Yeah. But regardless, anyway, sorry I
got off track. But what I was saying is that
like, I think that like using, you know, we were talking about
how like the movie talked about like women.
And in particular, there was one flashback where Zendaya was
like, actually like women do this too.
And it was supposed to be US understanding that her character
as a child had like, done research like on this because
she had like basically fallen into like a terrible like
algorithm and had no one to talk to and was being like harassed
and and facing like violence at school and like didn't.
Yeah. Anyway, so I think like.
They try to contextualize it, like Pattinson finds a book of
like the different ways in which American culture fetishizes guns
with a bunch of like women models with guns.
And I think it was probably a more academic text, but I didn't
really get to read any of it. He was just going through the
pictures and like seeing Zadaya in them, basically.
So the woman the movie tries to be like this is like this kind
of gun culture or violent culture is a inevitably or
eventually going to infect like all people in this country,
which I but I don't think he actually deserves that
commentary because the racial aspects of it weren't examined
at all. Yeah, I don't, I don't think
either. Yeah, aspect of gender or race
were like thoughtfully, yeah, explored here.
That's I guess like one of the big things where I felt like it
was just like using Zendaya's character as a way to talk about
a different issue. Right.
Yeah. So do you think that as and then
we can get back into the plot, But I just want to note this
real quick. I think, you know, I would
assume people are probably wondering, like, do you think we
also watch this movie a little bit differently because we're
educators and like, we've just been in schools for like 10
years? I thought about that last night.
Yeah, I mean, I do think that the premise of like I, I could
see the the dinner table and I think a lot of other people who
aren't in education could see the dinner table seen as like
very realistic, like you could see Zendaya or like Zendaya's
character, like dropping that. And if people were at that
dinner table, like immediately not knowing how to react or like
judging harshly. And I, I think like that
component of it is interesting from the a little bit more
interesting or nuanced from a point of view of people who are
educators because they are actually in school.
So like we have a little bit more context for like what the
flashbacks are because I, I think the flashbacks were more
so like situated within, like how people, you know, have
experienced public schools or like the institution of
education. I mean, obviously private
schools too, but like whatever. But I think that in terms of
like the way I was thinking about it, it's kind of like a
complicated thing to unravel. But essentially like the shit
that kids do you in this like environment where they kind of
like are on social media, like a Robert Pattinson's character of
like the cyber bullying and and shit like that.
Like, because they're in an environment where it's like they
are thinking they're like taught not to be thoughtful about, I
guess, like what they're doing to other people because like,
like they have like Trump as their president, you know what I
mean? They think things are like funny
exploitation. Is content.
Yeah. And so, like, there are, you
know, things that people like that children like, actually do.
Like that's the whole commentary that a lot of Heim's character
actually does something. And then it's like judging
Zendaya's character so hard to feel like thinking about doing
something. It's not that we shouldn't deal
with like, you know, a character thinking something like that.
That's not what we're saying that kids actually do shit.
That is like far worse than just thinking about doing something,
right. Like, I genuinely don't think
that people understand that. Like, you know, like kids are
putting, they're like putting like little girls like faces on
like porn, right? And like there's like, there's a
bunch of like legal shit where now like a little girl has to
deal with like that being on the Internet and it's like, that is
actually shit that's like happening.
There's also a lot of like other like violent things that are
happening, but it's crazy like isolated.
Incidents either those are like, no, Yeah, school by school cases
across the country. Yeah, I don't think people know,
like that is what's going on in school.
So I think that's also some place where we came at the movie
where like it's interesting if people are like, this is
problematic to like put in here like just the subject of of like
Zendaya's character, like what she thought about doing.
Yeah, I found. That kind of condescending from
that take us from some. Critics.
But I was like, I, I genuinely don't think that like people
know what is truly going on. And so I think a lot of people
think like this generation is like so much more accepting and
they they are like after Zendaya joins like a like anti gun, you
know, like activist group within her school.
Like no, like shit's so bad and it, and it's the like
environment like lack of resources, like what we're
talking about. But I think like that that is
interesting. I wonder like how people will
kind of like, yeah, I guess how people will talk about it.
Yeah, I mean, I'm incredibly well said.
I was going to say like basically all of that too.
Well, it's weird in particular for us because like, I've been
for me personally, I've been teaching high school since Trump
got elected. And so Trump culture is just way
more kids are more prone to being mean in ways that like our
generation didn't experience in the same way.
Like there was certainly more conventional and traditional
bullying for like young millennials or Zillennials of
like people who grew up in high school from like 2010 to 2014,
whatever. But this last 10 years, the the
meanness of like the cutting statements that kids will make
to one another online or in person is very and then laughing
about it is like, and you can tell something that they're just
like mirroring what they're saying online or mirroring what
they're saying in the culture and government or in business.
And it's deeply disturbing. And somehow this movie was aware
of that. I don't know if the film makers
were in touch with like what's going on because they knew
teachers, they had consultants on this movie, but there was an
awareness that I haven't really seen in, I've seen in European
films that deal in schools, but I don't think I've seen an
American. Like I know Euphoria sort of
covers this, but not really. It's kind of different.
But like, to me, I would have thought only an educator in high
school classrooms would know how to totally visualize this, where
you see that kids are not only thinking about hurting
themselves, but also thinking about hurting other people.
And the movie wrestling with the idea that adults don't want to
admit that because then it admits something about them and
the ways in which they've focused on self preservation,
the ways in which they focused on like a pseudo moral clarity
in their lives to justify their decisions or the bullying that
they've done in their lives when they were kids.
And the idea that this movie is playing with this like messy
psychological space that kids and educators exist and they
only know about that Zendaya is sort of her character is sort of
stunted in. And that's why the movie plays
with this idea of her teenage self coming back into the
present with Pattinson and somebody, like creepy scenes or
sequences that I found the be the most like one quote horror
like where he's like playing with his fiance as like a
teenage character in the park or like watching the water go by
and you're like, this is very strange and bizarre.
But I know what they're trying to convey here, which is
interesting. Just like, like the lack of help
for people who are like stuck in a very low part of their life.
So yeah, I think the movie was just like very again, like kind
of insightful about a culture that is incredibly anxious,
violent and ultimately like under supported.
There's like a couple nods to did you get therapy?
Like to pass into Zendaya. And she like, doesn't want to
talk about that in the movie. Really wants you to sort of like
be frustrated with her and be leaning on patents inside, which
I commend it for that because it would have been a much easier
route to be like, she's crazy, all caps, like insane and be
very problematic and then be sort of funny being on patents
inside being like, what the fuck's going on?
Like, what am I supposed to do here in a in a lot in a more
like less thoughtful. I think a group of film makers
hands here and that would have happened and that we would have
a different conversation. But yeah, I was impressed about
how much it humanized people who are going through what Zendaya's
character is going through in this movie and also what she
went through. Yeah, I, I mean, I think that
it's a weird thing where it's like, I, I think that what
people might be responding to is that like the idea of like
empathy as like forgiving Zendaya's character.
Like it doesn't mean that like what she wasn't planning was
like terrible. But it's like not, it's not a
nature versus nurture movie. But I was thinking about that,
especially with like Ruby and Uslan's movies of like, they
kind of do like fall, I guess like the triangle of sadness,
almost like fell into that. I think baby girl, like fell
into that. You know, I love Lena Rayne's
body, bodies, bodies, bodies. I just think like European.
Cinema came across here to the United States for sure.
Yeah. And I think that so like there
there is like something interesting, though, I think
going on with possible reactions that I could see to this of like
of being like not, I guess zooming out to see like, why is
the day I went through what she did?
Even though I think the movie does explain it like, but it
doesn't just mean that it's like, Oh, we're just like not
we're just like fully saying this is fine just because we're
not. I guess because you're seeing
the social factors that like led to a situation like this isn't
the same thing as like just brushing it off.
So like, but I think that that conflation, it is probably going
to happen. Yeah, no, that you're right.
I think just by the fact that the fact that Zendaya's
character doesn't give a clear single reason as to why she even
considered being violent or committing, like, you know, mass
violence probably is going to irritate a lot of people in the
Alana Heim way where she was like, well, then you're a
psycho. Because you can't give me a one
specific reason where Patson has to make up a story about the
neighbor that she saw that physically, the car crash, all
that stuff, and that traumatized her.
And then Alana, Heim's fiance, is like, I love.
When he's like, well, that's like that actually.
Yeah, that could be a reason. Mamadou Aiki Athi, I apologize
for mispronouncing his name, but he he's pretty good in that
role. He's a tougher role.
He. Does have a really difficult
role and I actually think he brings through a lot of like
subtle humor that doesn't feel like it's like making light of
this situation either. So I I liked his performance and
I like him and Robert Pattinson's like talking and he
feels like, again, the characters feel realistic and
that he felt like he would actually like be there for
Robert Pattinson's character as a friend.
I agree. But OK.
That aside though, I think I actually just had an epiphany
about why I didn't totally like this movie.
I don't know if I can totally formulate it.
OK, that's fine. Let's just be vulnerable for the
next 5 minutes. Let's try.
OK, So I think that there's something interesting going on,
as we've already stated in the idea that Alana Heim's character
essentially is incapable of having a conversation about the
social factors and like institutional like issues that
could lead to anyone, which Zendaya's character represents
like, like going through something like this and having
no resources or like people to turn to.
And that's like why it's funny when Robert Pattinson's like
it's like a cultural thing. It's like an American cultural
thing. So like that, that part is
interesting, but I think the flip side of that and and what
we we're also talking about is like a flaw of the movie of
using like a young black girl in America to tell a story.
Again, that like is a violent act.
That is usually like a a story that would be about like a young
white boy or a white man in America.
The reason that that is like actually a really huge like
issue in the movie is that the there's like a conflation of
like both of those things. So like that, I guess the idea
that the movie kind of gets you to in terms of, or I guess the
the kind of conclusion that the movie posits is that if we are
judging something like immediately and can't have a
conversation, quote UN quote about it, then like people are
morally quote UN quote outraged. You know, like there's a lot of
conservative language in here. That's why I'm quote unquoting,
quote unquoting. And so I think, but the, the
issue there is that like the, the people who are usually, I, I
guess, like in these violent situations and have privilege
with the movie subject. Actually, you know the the I
guess the the person right, who we would be thinking about in
this actual subject matter in real life outside of the context
of the movie already get so many passes in life like whether it's
physical violence or sexual violence, like institutions are
set up to not convict them or to.
To had not have the news cycle really like like pay attention
to that like people can pay people out like I think that.
It's like conveniently Co opting A historically marginalized
identity to forgive basically the dominant identity in
society, which would be like the male dominated white male
dominated identity. Right.
So then the the idea of like, you know, the idea of judging
too quickly as a concept without thinking about social factors is
interesting because then it that that's that's interesting, I
guess, because again, it's like calling attention to like a
broken system. But at the same time, because of
what actually what the subject matter is dealing with and who
usually that represents it falls.
It's like a very slippery slope into like, well, like, you know,
people are quote, UN quote, outraged like about some about
something. And it veers into a place where
it's like it, it veers into a place of like, why are people
outraged without having the full story, you know, and that I
don't know. So I I think that it veers into
like white victimization. I totally articulate it, but.
No, I think you did. I think my counter argument that
I've been voicing throughout the episode of why I ultimately
don't land on the side of this movie is being totally
opportunistic or even problematic.
Even though I I agree with everything you just said, is
that it goes out of its way to try to humanize people who are
not given that grace in in America, especially as children.
Considering how violent this country is and how there's a
kind of denial built into American culture about how we
talk about violence in this nation.
How we talk about incarceration, how we talk about a lot lack of
mental health access resources in that way.
And even how it tries to provoke you to think about like monogamy
and customs about relationships or trying to date somebody as
like emotionally violent performances that we put on for
others. Now there's something there is
something emotionally violent about Pattinson and Zendaya's
even like meet cute that is kind of interesting.
The movie is doing a lot of different things about the
concept of how we accept and normalize violence and then we
judge it. I think I would be more in your
wavelength about and I think I would not like the movie.
If she actually did commit some kind of violence and then the
movie was sort of going out of its way to try to understand her
perspective, then I would find it deeply like I would.
I would be moral, I would morally object it and I would
reject it as like an artistic exercise.
But because she is just guilty of being victimized and wanting
to victimize other people, that's just called American
public schools in 2026 or whatever.
Like that's just like a Tuesday, you know what I mean?
Like, come, come visit a local, your local school as a
substitute. And holy shit, you're going to
get your shit rocked about the ways in which you thought the
kids were speaking to one another.
Or like this sort of fantasy that even though I Gen.
Z is, you know, incredibly important generation to me.
And I and I love the generation, what it stands for symbolically
growing up in this Trump administration is fucked.
And like you cannot understand it unless you've seen it.
And I don't just mean just because you have kids, you
understand it what you like. You don't know even your four
point O students from your one point O students, you do not
know how they are speaking to one another in groups or online
or in person and what they are doing.
Totally. And there's been TV shows about
this recently on Netflix is that one show that's really popular
right now. So the conversations are like
happening. So I guess I would be again, I
would be more on what you're saying to to say that this movie
is trying to like justify the sort of like white fragility and
white sympathy that like men like this filmmaker might be
trying to get across by Co opting a black woman and putting
her in the shoes of what would predominantly be a white fragile
man or white fragile boy in a school.
But because she ultimately did not commit the violence, I think
it's actually more interesting about what it's provoking the
audience about, about our own judgments and how we try to
preserve status. Yeah, OK.
Does. That make sense I.
I think it makes sense. I, I do, I do ultimately think
like I walked away with it or walked away from the movie like
immediately being like, oh, that's it was interesting again
that like no one was asking when she just said like her most
something that was like the most vulnerable thing, which is like
also probably reaching out for help.
Like even in that moment being drunk as an adult, you know,
like I, I think that it was calling attention to the idea
that she felt like she had no support.
There wasn't support offered to her ever.
She. Only goes on a date with Pass's
character because she thinks that he can relate to being
traumatized. Because I think her book is
about being damaged. Yeah.
So I never caught the he never fucking read it.
The title, yeah, because. He was the damager we learned.
Yeah. So, yeah, I don't know.
It's I think it's that's nuanced in a way that it's not going to
get a lot of credit for, even though I think what you're
saying is right. And I think that this movie, I
don't I think this director is going to get cancelled
eventually. I think he's going to make
something that because you're, because you're totally, I think
locating something a little bit toxic about this movie that will
come up in one of his feature films, if not one of his
previous films. Because I haven't watched stream
scenario or the other. I'm sick of myself.
You know, I probably will because I heard the Cage one's
really good. Last thing I, I guess like is
that I think the, IT was an interesting experience to be put
in Robert Pattinson's shoes throughout the movie where you
are essentially like, kind of like in the position of like, Oh
my God, what would I do? Because Robert Pattinson's
asking everyone, like, what would you do if this scenario
happened? And so like the audience is all
thinking, Oh my God, what would I do?
And you're living through like Robert Pattinson's kind of break
about it and it's moving kind of so fast and you're kind of taken
by all the different scenes because they feel so messy
essentially that you then at the very end you're like, Oh my God,
Like he just put her through so much shit when she just like
talked to him about something, you know what I mean?
Like so I, I do think that is an interesting, I guess like point
of like filmmaking point of view.
Yeah. And I think it then broadens
also who it's targeting in its commentary because obviously
Pattinson's character is not an American, which is interesting.
Like, especially with the knife scene or just like him being
scared of her, like he didn't know her.
Which brings us to the idea of this movie.
When it comes to the relationship commentary, which
we've not talked about. Maybe we can end the pod here in
terms of the performances from the Leeds, but also the way it
handles this relationship. Did you think that the romance
worked between Pattinson's character and Zendaya's
character? Because I think this movie sort
of relies on you needing it to work.
I do. I think so.
I I literally believed they were a couple.
Same. It's like they're very good
actors. And the reason, yeah, and the
reason it's wild is because we are so in tune with them as
celebrities like we are. We, you know, watch very well.
I don't know about we because like, you do more like movie
prep. I watch very few celebrity,
like, interviews or whatever. Like I always stop for like
Zendaya and Robert Pattinson. And I've never skipped one of
their interviews. And so like, I think we are like
just individually para socially like connected to them.
So it was like kind of wild that I was able to suspend disbelief
and believe that they were like a couple on screen throughout
the whole movie. Yeah, yeah, they're very, very
good right away too, like in the meet queue, which we really talk
too much about, but like where he sort of tries to creep up on
her. And I do like how this movie
sort of interrogates that. A lot of relationships and maybe
in Western culture in particular, like I can't speak
like globally at least, are built on like false, a false
premise or a sort of performativity of who you are,
you know, like, oh, I also like this book or my go to someone's
Facebook, you know, back when we were in high school, Like what
are their favorite movies? I like the notebook.
Like shit like that. Obviously there's more
consequences to doing something that manipulative when you have
like a grown adult mind, which is a little bit more funny in an
absurd way, but also kind of scary to see Pattinson do what
he is doing. And they also clocked that he
has a lot of anxiety when that meet cute because he's like
seeing the ways in which people around him are looking at him.
But he's sort of just like hallucinating about it.
If you remember when he tries to take a picture of the book.
Oh, yes, yeah. Anyways, he's really good as
this sort of like jittery Hugh Grant that is spiraling out into
this more squirmy and awkward, chaotic, anxious ridden museum
guy museum guy. And I some, for whatever reason,
like I do feel like, I don't know.
Do you think that this movie ends in a way where you think
that their relationship is going to work?
That's. An interesting question because
I think. It's sort of confronting you
about monogamy as like, inherently, like, violent.
I think it's like confronting you.
Like, it's not by accident that you're seeing the scarred person
in Sunday's character at the end with her gown.
And then you see Pattinson covered in blood and his you
know, that I think on their wedding day, basically him
getting his ass beat that he never, you know, he never got
jumped for what he did in high school.
And that was like he got he got what he deserved for like cyber
bullying somebody. And then she basically lost
everything that she built because she built like a sort of
like new life for herself on lies.
And so like now she's kind of starting over.
So I found that kind of interesting.
That's like a constant motif throughout the film that she's
playing this game where they're like, starting over, where
they're meeting each other for the first time because of how
many, how many lies? There's like a foundation of
lies that the relationship is built on.
Yeah, that's interesting. So I don't know.
I don't know if they end up to. I think I think that's why it
was a tragedy at the end, because I did think they were
going to be together because it was like her saying I forgive
you at the end almost when they're like, you know, do you
come here often? Did he?
Say it was nice to meet you or it was nice meeting you.
At the end of the movie. I couldn't tell what he said.
And that's a big difference, the big distinction between the two
when she when she was there playing a game and they were at
the the diner I. Thought he said it's nice to
meet you. OK, interesting.
I thought he said it was nice to meet you and I thought that was
what would. Be the difference.
Oh. Goodbye.
Oh, I was like they just met each other for the first time
for real. Because like now, they know each
other, who they are. Like.
She's he's her bully and she's the person he victimized.
And it's like it can't tell if they're parting ways or they're
starting a new. Anyways, I just found that
fascinating. It's a pretty like, you know,
we're not like the most, I mean, we're married, but like, it's
not like we think monogamy is like this great institution.
So like I it's a pretty like scathing takedown of
relationships, weddings, weddings as performance.
You're all of your OPS being there, but people are supposed
to be the people who love you. I guess now we can go to the
sporting performances just really quickly because we didn't
really talk about her at all. Alana Heim, wait, wait.
Did you? Think they were not going to be
together then? I thought it was, I thought it
was sort of a break up, but it could be more of a phantom
thread situation, which is why I thought a phantom thread because
Woodcock is basically almost bully if you will, and vice
versa. So that's interesting you.
Know there just last thing to bring up.
I think, I think that this movie is making me think a lot about
like a few good men and that you can't handle the truth scene of
like how those are interpreted differently and how I think that
there's a little bit of like you can't handle the truth in this
movie. That makes it like feel like off
to me. And that that's like what I keep
trying to locate, although I think it is thoughtful in other
ways. Well, just because I just to
note this, Kelsey and I have been together since senior year
of high school. So like, we know a lot about
each other's childhoods, but I do think this movie is going to
start really provoke really uncomfortable conversations
between couples who met each other in their 20s and 30s You.
Think when people leave the movie, they're going to be like
asking the same question. No, I'm dead ass.
Yeah, I think that is going to happen.
And I'm, I'm curious to see how that's if there's going to be
any horror stories from this movie about like, what is the
worst thing that you've ever done in your childhood?
Because like if I did find out that like if I'm, if I'm 30
getting married to somebody and I met them two or three years
ago and I found out that they spent a year cyberbullying
somebody and they like left the district, I'd be like, I let me
just like reflect on this. This is pretty heavy.
Like that's a not in a judge mental way, but like you do
reassess who you're with. And that's actually not that
crazy of a conceit. Like I can imagine that
happening to people right before wedding days, especially when
you're getting super vulnerable and they give all these loved
ones and everything's kind of volatile.
Anyways, I found that interesting.
Well, I think also the the premise that that you were
talking about with monogamy too, which is interesting.
Like and we I forget what part it was, but we were always, we
were like laughing because I was like saying the reasons I love
you or whatever. And it all sounded like not, I
guess what people would count as like this, like imagined like,
Yeah, I. Guess yeah.
Traditional like marriage of what?
But I think that there is like this interesting thing of like
especially with monogamy being so rooted and like these, I
guess like practices of like gender difference and stuff and
like man and wife or whatever. It also there's a lot of like
the premise in the movie that it that it's like addressing
towards, I guess marriage. It is like that you don't like
know each other and are like, there are a lot of different
things that are constructed like barriers of like, well, this is
what men do and this is what women do in a relationship.
And like, you can't talk to each other.
Does that make sense? Like they're supposed to be
secrets or something? You know, I mean, like, I think
that might be a little different now.
Like that is changing now. But I mean, like, certainly, you
know, that that has been a part of like heterosexual
relationships that like our marriage seeking for a long time
of like not fully knowing each other, you know, like where, you
know, people in the past were totally fine with like marrying
someone of a different like political affiliation for.
Example. Yeah, not knowing you, who they
voted for, which is interesting. Yeah, that's a nightmare.
There's a movie for you, this film maker, quickly on Elanaheim
before we just kind of get to the pop.
That would be a great thriller. Wait, hang on.
The drama too? Yeah, a woman finds out that her
husband voted for Trump. Yeah, yeah, that kind of goes
back to and that goes back to I guess I never introduced this,
but my only I haven't really criticized the movie outside of
the things that you already spoke so like well about.
But my only critique of this film.
I guess my biggest criticism is whether the conceit fully holds
up by the end of the of the movie on re watch.
Because I think obviously it's really insightful on on violence
in American culture and how quickly our country is to indict
violent actions but not prevent violent actions.
It's very smart on that point. I guess what I was skeptical
about when thinking about it on maybe re watching it eventually.
What might not work as well and re watch is do we actually judge
people for their thoughts to the extent that this movie suggests?
Or is this movie exaggerating that to make a broader point, if
that makes sense. I don't know if this is like a
nitpick, but like because you have to like suspend logic a
little bit to believe that everyone would react this
strongly to Zendaya's character reveal, at least in my opinion.
Like, I don't know if this is like, if this how realistic that
is. I know the movie's not
interested in realism. It's more interesting like
exposing contradictions in culture.
But anyways, like I don't know how much like the concept of
like we judge people for their thoughts.
Like that just feels like an interesting contrivance of this
movie, like thought of just to make its contradictions work.
So I guess on rewatch, that might be kind of boring to
rewatch that part, yeah. I don't think I'll.
I walked away literally thinking I don't think I'll ever rewatch
this. Interesting.
OK, yeah, quickly on Al Anaheim, 'cause we're fans of liquor's
pizza, Paul Thomas Anderson, obviously one of her favorite
directors. She's great in that movie.
I loved her as Alana and Licorice Pizza.
I thought she had a really great like kind of gritty,
interesting, like outspoken performance there and she really
like met the character. I and that movie only works if
you watch it from her lens. Yes, yeah.
I don't think she was cast correctly here.
Miss cast and 1 battle after another and this movie
certainly, yeah. Yeah, she really stuck out.
And even though she wasn't in one battle after another that
much, when I saw her, I was like, what is she doing here?
And then here too, I think the the speech that she gave was
like extremely cringy. And I think it was funny because
it was actually like commenting just more broadly on like, even
when speeches aren't that cringy, there's always like
nerves around. Like, you know, like I've never
been to a wedding where like someone has inherently like
called someone out and been like malicious.
But at the same time, I've been in a lot of weddings where there
are cringy things that happen because it's like public
speaking or someone says something like that.
It's like, you know, like an, an insult to the, to the person
that they don't mean or something right?
Like, And so I think it was like playing with that idea with
weddings like you were talking about.
But that scene just like didn't work for me beyond it being a
like, feel bad anxiety inducing scene.
But I just, I just thought her performance was like a little
bit out of place and like, felt a little bit exaggerated
compared to like Zendaya Pattinson.
And then I'm forgetting the actor who plays her husband.
But they, I think they all had like a little bit more like
grounded performances. And I know that she was playing
someone who is like, supposed to be a little bit like, you know?
More vain. Yeah, but also like having an
exaggerated reaction, but yeah. But she felt a little
cartoonish. Yeah.
It was a little bit too
heightened. I agree.
I did think she had moments that were really good, like when she
was telling, like, shushing her husband, like when they're
upstairs in the building before Pattinson meets the cousin
outside. Oh, yeah.
But she's really good in that moment, too.
He's. We probably have not said
enough. He's very funny in this movie.
Yeah. Like, extraordinarily funny.
Like he's obviously very funny in movies like The Lighthouse or
other films too, but I don't know if he's going to get out of
credit for what he's up to comedically in this film.
Like there's a lot of physical comedy gags that he's doing.
But yeah, to your point, I do think like she is supposed to be
an audience stand in, but they kind of push that too much with
the dial to 11 because then it's sort of distances you.
I do like when her husband Mama do a thief who's like when she's
like, I'm going to give the fucking speech.
She's like fuck, Oh my God. Yeah, well, oh, no.
I love when he's like, we're at a wedding get together, you
know, like, yeah. The DJ thing, I think we already
kind of talked about that the wedding is the final act, the.
DJ Also the aux cable like during the dad's speech was
really like, I think a shocking moment in our I.
Thought you got shot. Yeah, that was the moment it got
me. Yeah, the the DJ conversation
was funny at the very beginning of him talking about his like
tech. And yeah, there was also.
A few with the podcast set up. The, the, like, woman who works
with Pattinson. That whole conversation was just
like a really great scene. I I think it was probably the
best scene in the movie. One of them, yeah.
You might be right. I think they're separate moments
where I was like, oh, like Pattinson's giving a great
performance here outside of the sceners today is giving a great
performance here emotionally, like outside of that scene.
But I think in terms of like being locked into a scene that
that scene felt like very back and forth, you know, and like,
like ping Pong and her. She was just like delivering her
responses, like, yeah, like, isn't that what you do?
And and then so it was, you know, at the end of the movie
when she like tells Blake basically who's.
Playing Batman in this movie. Yeah, he's so he's playing.
Ben Affleck's Batman against Pattinson's Batman.
And then he head butts Robert Battinson.
Like I thought I was going to punch him, but head butting is
insane. And then she comes over and
she's like, Blake. Use your words like.
They show a lot of Himes characters screaming at him,
which I thought was interesting. Oh, screaming at Blake, I think.
Interesting, yeah, but yeah. 22 Last thing last two things I.
Also like the the the small detail of like the song That's
the day of plays or Robert Pattinson is in a bad mood.
I like that, too. Yeah, there's a lot of quirks in
a relationship. I wish I knew the characters a
little bit more, but I think that's part of the point.
They don't really know each other.
I think the wedding was really well shot, but lots of lots of
tension in the filmmaking, a lot of judgement exploding at once.
Very chaotic, very uncomfortable, very up,
upsetting and unsettling. There's not like a clean
catharsis. I felt like I needed one again.
That's sort of the point. The only thing I'll say about
this movie again as a kind of a final critique as we kind of and
the pod and maybe do our final thoughts or extra credits is I
was really confused about the the the pace of this movie
because it's about 100 minutes, but it felt like it was 2 plus
hours. And do you think they could just
cut the flashbacks and give us a 90 minute movie?
And we don't need some of the comedic beats in those
flashbacks, even though they work in the context of those
flashbacks. And they could get rid of the
whole conceit of like young Zendaya's character in the place
of older Zendaya's character to show that there's sort of like a
psychological stuntedness. I think they could have
expressed that through Zendaya's performance because she's so
dynamic in this movie. And I think you probably could
have cut off literally like 10 minutes of the movie.
Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of it
could be cut. OK, extra credits.
I'm going to give extra credit to Zendaya.
So we rewatch Challengers right before the drama.
A great idea. Lucas sports ROM com had such a
fun time, a great time. And something I realized while
watching that movie is, yes, the filmmaking, the editing, the use
of the score, everything is so immersive.
It's so powerful. It's so propulsive, but a lot of
the propulsive cinematic choices we're running through what
Zendaya is up to in that film. And I really don't think even
though I've like had some, I've been a little suspicious of her,
like some of the dramatic acting from her, like the Spider Man
movies or the Dune films, Challengers.
And now this movie is like, we need to get her and more stuff.
And she just said she's going to take a break after this year.
She's going to have an exciting year.
I mean the Spider Man film, the Dune movie, Euphoria Spider Man.
We don't watch Euphoria got. A busy 2026?
Yeah, we don't, but still a lot of attention and credit that we
gave Mike Feist and Josh O'Connor that I think O'Connor
really deserves more than Feist. And Feist is pretty good in it.
O'Connor's excellent in it. I think she deserved a lot more
credit at the time. And rewatching and I'm like,
holy shit. Like she is doing the most and
trying to make you believe in this love triangle and also
unpack what it is psychologically and with the
drama. What's really interesting about
this career move and why I want to give her extra credit is that
she could have easily settled into a traditional movie star
lane of Julia Roberts and Rachel McAdams.
Not to say that their careers were easy, but she is so famous
that she probably could have just done an evolution of
McAdams in particular and someone who could have just
like, entered into like more corny or cheesy romantic films
with charisma and likeability. But instead she's doing things
that are like really strange and like kind of off putting and
psychologically complicated and pretty dark.
And so I just want to give her credit because I, I know people
don't think about it this way. And because I somebody in my
comments when I did a video on her recently was like, she's not
like Julia Rachel McAdams, like she's never done a ROM com.
I'm like, have you seen the spider man films?
Those are romantic comedies. Those are John Hughes movies.
Like those are not that's basic. Those are movies are basically
breakfast club more than they are like Sam Raimi spider man.
Does that make sense? And so like the superhero genre
has consumed comedies and romance films and action movies,
like multiple genres. So sad.
It was deeply depressing. So she's already played in that
world. She's done Euphoria, she's done
Malcolm and Marie Challengers, Dune.
Now the drama huge 2026. And this is this is maybe her
best dramatic performance. I think so.
Even Challengers is her like most iconic one, I think, and I
think Johnny and Dune, while she gets probably more to do than
the books gave her to do, which is nice, and I think she's great
chemistry with Chalmay. That performance is still a
little bit too one note for me to give her a lot of credit for
that one. But Challengers and this like
back-to-back pretty awesome. I yeah, I agree my extra credit
went too. I guess it's not fair but
Tuesday and Pattinson just because I I think you're right
like at the top of the pod. This movie doesn't work if it
isn't experienced as a romantic comedy and like they're making
that possible and it it is wild again that I like literally
suspended disbelief and thought of them as a couple.
But when they made out in the museum, I was like, I kind of
see this, like, this is working. But I saw them like, not as the
actors. Exactly as, like, awkward New
Yorkers. Yes, yeah, yeah.
So, well, they weren't. The funny thing is, I it was set
in Boston, I think. Oh, why did I think I?
Thought it was in New York too. It was giving a very like New
York vibe in terms of but it, it was a Boston, Yeah, anyway.
But I I think their performances carried the movie so.
OK, that was the extra credits of the drama and Zendaya and
Pattinson in particular. We'll be back soon.
Actually, that's not true. We'll be back maybe in a few
weeks with maybe one of those episodes of what we've been
watching. There's not a lot coming out the
next few weeks that I think needs a deep dive on the main
feed. But I think we're going to watch
a lot of, there's a lot of streaming movies coming out that
look like fun survival films. On Patreon, we just put all the
list of movies are coming out this month and there's a The
Mummy remake. There's a horror remake of The
Mummy. I don't know what happened to
the IP there, but it got taken by somebody and they're making a
horror version of it. Even though there's a The Mummy
four or The Mummy five with Brendan Fraser and Rachel Vices
coming out next year now. Wow, we should definitely have a
conversation about like weirdly recycled IP that like just keeps
trying to happen. The Mummy is certainly one of
those things. And the pit ends in two weeks,
so we'll probably cover the pit on the main feed, I'd imagine.
Because on Patreon this month we're doing romantic
blockbusters. We're starting with The
Notebook. Very excited.
We're going to The Mummy and then we're going to Speed
because Keanu Reeves and Sandra Bullock, no one's ever had
Potter chemistry. No one has ever the studio
blockbuster has ever even. Yeah, it's amazing.
Yeah, that was some. That was a good movie and great,
great acting from those or was it acting?
That's our central question going into that episode and.
We'll talk about Rachel Vice. Yeah.
Oh, hell yeah. Yeah.
There's a lot of, like, just all time stars, young Trey and
Kelsey, like, crushes in those movies.
So I'm excited to talk about them.
All right. Peace.
Bye.