Music hello welcome to the extra credits of Ryan coogler's
Sinners I'm Trey and. I'm Kelsey.
We're back talking about Coogler and if you're a fan like us,
then we have a surprise for you. We have a three hour deep dive
on Creed right now on our Patreon for free members which
is very exciting for. Some reason I was like, what's
the surprise? That's it.
But for people who like are
invested in Coogler's career, I guess it's a surprise for you.
And it's what, like over three hours?
No, you're right. That's an odd way to start the
episode. Welcome to Sinners.
We got a surprise for you. Free content right now on
Patreon. We have a three hour deep dive
of Creed, which is one of Ryan Coogler's best films and Michael
B Jordan's best performances and has really started this Ryan
Coogler renaissance where everybody just goes to see one
of his movies as if they're an event.
Yeah, and we talked about the Creed franchise on that episode.
Yeah, that was a long episode in particular because we talked
about MBJ, we talked about Coogler's filmography, which
we'll do you know that today as well when we're talking about
sinners. But yeah, there's also a lot of
like Rocky franchise history talk, right?
Like how Coogler was both like, working within the Rocky
franchise, but also, you know, making it his own and then.
Trying to reclaim the name of Creed from the Rocky.
Fans, right? And also kind of like, you know,
think about Apollo too in that franchise.
And then obviously we talked about like Michael B Jordan's
directorial debut with Creed 3. So like, there's a lot going on
in that pod, but it was really fun.
So yeah, we have that and then our other two Oscar episodes.
Yeah, which are Dune Part 1 and The Florida Project.
And right now you can head to the description of this episode,
subscribe to us on Patreon as a free member, and you can listen
to those episodes and get a feel for what it's like on there.
There's no other surprises. That's it.
That's the only surprise. So today is a deep dive.
Spoiler alert on Sinners, right? We've already had a reaction
episode that I did solo on YouTube yesterday.
We've only had a few days to think about this movie.
We've read articles, read reviews, listened to fans
online, have listened to some podcast in the past 48 hours
trying to wrap her head around this movie because this seems
this seems like it's going to be one of the biggest hits of 2025,
if not the first big hit as Mickey 17 was a let down
domestically even though globally it did make a lot of
its money back. Ryan Cougar is easily one of the
most exciting American film makers of his generation.
So I've been highly anticipating this movie for a long time.
When we did our anticipated list, it was like #10 for me.
Yeah. Something like that it.
Was it was up there? Yeah.
Yeah, and, you know, since Fruitvale Station 2013, I
believe he's brought a real singular vision to studio
blockbusters with Creed, with Black Panther, Wakanda Forever,
and he has somehow kept his sensibilities right.
John Singleton, Spike Lee, Martin Scorsese, some of the
great film makers that he's inspired by that are really
grounded, dramatic, great directors and writers.
And then he's also inspired by some great weirdos that are
genre film makers that we love that either subvert genre or
lean into it like a John Carpenter or Quentin Tarantino,
which you're feeling a lot of those two film makers and
sinners, which is really exciting.
There's a lot of, like, camp vibes.
Yeah, absolutely so. Coogler has really carved out a
unique space as somebody who makes really big movies that are
thematically rich and entertaining and widely
accessible. And he's been granted by studios
like this Studio Capital to make, you know, the movies that
George Lucas is making for his career.
Steven Spielberg has made a Ridley Scott or James Cameron.
The only difference here is we usually do not see a male white
male dominated Hollywood studio system from CE OS to directors
and they're closed loop circles of like giving each other
opportunities give non white film makers this much capital.
So this is a huge moment for the history of Hollywood and Ryan
Coogler is that he this isn't a big moment, maybe to him because
he's done this already, right? Black Panther was a big deal.
Wakanda Forever was a big deal in many different ways, and so
is Creed. He's been here, he's been in the
limelight, he's been stressed out probably for a decade,
having a lot of responsibility on his shoulders, and he's
always succeeded. What's really excited me for The
Sinner's release is even though I think I feel conflicted about
this movie and, and you do too, but people are just going to the
theater and they're happy. Like LeBron James is tweeting
out, like go see Sinners. Everyone seems to be loving it.
Critics to audiences. It's only Friday, like midday
right now, so we haven't gone into opening weekend yet, but
the returns in the box office are looking pretty positive for
the most, most part. So this is a a really big
moment. In Hollywood, Yeah.
Well, I mean, I think with like Black Panther and Creed, right,
I'm excited that audiences are going to to see like Ryan
Coogler's movies because they know him as a director.
Like I think even people who weren't invested in the whatever
phase it was of Marvel from like end game, you know, when it ends
at end game, I would still say that people, I think like
general audiences still like went to see Black Panther, even
if they didn't see like all the niche, you know, maybe like Thor
3. Was there a Thor 3 Ragnarok?
Yeah. Oh yeah, OK, sorry, I meant more
like a Thor. To Doctor Strange.
Yeah, Like, you know what I mean?
But I feel like people want to see Black Panther and also, you
know, Black Panther has more interesting themes than most of
the Marvel movies that are more like moral dilemmas.
I mean, obviously there are some interesting things going on with
like, Iron Man's plot, and ultimately it's like still a
Marvel movie. So there's only so much you can
do within that kind of like blockbuster world.
But I would say like he, you know, added a lot of I I guess
just more like challenging themes to what you'd expect from
a Marvel movie for broad audiences.
And then same with creator, right?
We talked about that a lot on the episode for Patreon.
But yeah, like I'm, I'm just pumped that people, even though
we didn't maybe love sinners as much as it seems like everyone
else does. I'm I'm just pumped that people
are like going to see an original movie.
And I'm also really excited that it's kind of similar to how I
felt about Asteroid City actually, with like Wes
Anderson, like I am, you know, seated for any of Wes Anderson's
movies or Ryan Coogler's movies. But I, I didn't really like,
love Asteroid City like a lot of people did.
I just liked it. But ultimately I was excited to
see what was going to unfold. Like I was excited to see
someone's vision. Exactly.
And that's really cool. And that that's similar for also
like people and Ryan Coogler's cohort, like we talk about a
lot, right? Like in his generation of film
makers like Greta Gerwig, like a Damien Chazelle, like an Ari
Astor, right. People who really didn't like
the swing of bow is afraid. Once Astor got capital.
I loved it. That was one of my favorite
episodes we've ever done. But but yeah, so like I I'm just
excited to to basically experience something in theaters
with a community who loves film and see like what someone wants
to do with an original story. Like sinners, Yes, investing in
original stories and unique cinematic visions in this auteur
status that can be problematic sometimes, but also can really
help the industry in this case. If we're getting film makers,
especially from diverse perspectives that we have not
traditionally gotten. And in this industry to then
widen the audience of who is willing and to pay like 2025
bucks a ticket or whatever with parking or whatever it is, it's
become really costly to go to the movies.
I know Art Theatre just introduced a parking in the
parking lot and we're like what? What is?
How dare they? And then we found out it was
like free for the first four hours, but we were like, what
about a double feature? We were going to double feature
something they didn't think about us the freaks.
But yeah, there's just great directors taking on ambitious
3rd or 4th projects, right? Greta Gerwig with Barbie, Jordan
Peele with Nope, Barry Jenkins, I thought with an an interesting
experiment with Mufasa, even though people didn't seem to
love that movie. Damian with Babylon obviously as
a huge swing and Ari Astor if Beau is afraid and Robert Eggers
doing a remake but making monsters cool again.
He would, I guess, successful at, right, with Nosferatu and
now Ryan Coogler, a lot of the directors in this cohort, among
others, and I'm missing probably like the Safdies or Clojeau.
They are, you know, not just known for their thematic
ambition, but they're known for being able to blend commercial
appeal with social and emotional depth.
They all sort of feel like they are living in a post Jurassic
Park world, and they're just trying to make something that
leans into that. Yeah, the commentary, the idea
of making spectacle, but also exploring what's the cost of
spectacle, right, while also trying to keep like the
Spielbergien aspects that feel rooted in character, rooted in
like human experiences. That's really hard to do.
Some of them are a little bit more allergic to that than
others, but they still want to do it like an Ari Astor, which
I'm really excited to see. Eddington.
The trailer looked really fun for coming out this July, I
think. But what's special about Coogler
next to all those other directors is that he's just
worked on a another scale than all of them.
He's working on a Christopher Nolan scale.
He's working on a DVL and up scale, which is very strange
because I think he's 38 years old.
He's very young and he's incredibly successful already
and he's already kind of out grossed.
Maybe all of those directors combined if you remove Jordan
Peele, who I think is Gen. X, which is pretty wild to think
about. Like actually that is insane.
If you look at Damian, Ari Eggers, Gerwig, even with Barbie
and then Chazelle, I think all of Cougar's movies have out
grossed those films. Money only means so much, you
know, but in this case, trying to get butts and seats is a big
deal to keep this industry alive.
So he has become, you know, this massive commodity to a lot of
the studios, which is interesting because Sinners is
sort of about that that relationship to this like
exploitative system. And and these these institutions
who have been taking advantage of people are misrepresenting
different identities or different walks of life.
And and Michael B Jordan's characters and other characters
in this movie and centers sort of reckoning with that, with
this vampire metaphor. This is a really weird movie.
Yeah. I'm excited to talk.
About it also like when you hear Ryan Coogler in interviews and I
think also like a lot of people who you just mentioned, they
seem to also be like kind of reckoning with that too, right?
Like they're aware of like having to work within the system
to maybe like also have a message that has been not
traditionally like told in Hollywood and not been like
allowed to to be told. So yeah, it's interesting.
Like. Barbie literally was like about
that where you have high schoolers telling Barbie like.
Oh yeah. You're a capitalist.
And she's like, I didn't build the railroad systems.
What did she say? I didn't invent commerce.
Or yeah, yeah, yeah. And then Damien Chazelle's
Babylon is about this idea as well.
And Jordan Peels Nope to stick on peel for a second.
Nope feels like the last great original film we had from an
auteur where we were like holy shit, how did he make this?
It feels like it feels like he wrote one of the most dense
screenplays of the decade that no one really cared about.
In fact, I feel like it came out.
It was also $100 million original feature.
It came out and everybody was like, well, it's kind of like
Jaws in the sky. It's pretty good, but it's a
little weird. I don't know what's up with like
the Yeah and. I felt like general audiences
kind of turned against it. Yeah, And that was very strange.
Now people look back and open was like, was that a masterpiece
that we didn't treat seriously? Because it was like post
pandemic and everybody was a little bit depressed and was
like, I think so. I think that's what was going
on. So Sinners, this is a weird
movie. As I just said, it is a a bold
film. It is a genre blurring movie and
it's already earning a lot of critical acclaim.
It is a chaotic $100 million vampire Western horror,
religious musical period piece, right?
But it's also deeply intentional on how it tries to juggle those
tones and themes, and it finds something cinematic about that
mess. It finds something interesting
about those genres. I've been listening a lot to
Ryan Coogler the past few days on different podcasts and
interviews he's done. We were going to have him on the
show, actually, but now he's just a vacation.
On vacation now because he's just like had done press for
weeks. Yeah, we asked too late.
We did, yeah. I've been busy and Kelsey's
doing finals week right now, so it's kind of insane.
But what I was going to say with that is that listening to him is
so insightful about Sinners. It makes me like the movie more
that I'm not sure that's fair to the criticism of the film
because the flaw still exists. And I think a lot of people are
who love sinners are also attached to the idea that they
also just love Ryan Coogler. So they're going to love
anything he makes. And I do have that relationship
to him. So there's a strong bias, I
think, in the film community about Coogler because we're just
also connected to him. He does feel like a Spielbergian
person to a lot of our generation right now especially.
But it is insane that he got this movie off the ground.
And he talked about like how he wanted to play in a lot of
different genres that have taken advantage of black audiences and
him wanting to reclaim genre in a lot of ways.
And I was thinking like, man, he has spent a decade now doing
like massive reclamation projects.
He's used the Creed franchise to reclaim sports and boxing and
the name of Creed. He's he's used Black Panther to
reclaim the superhero genre from the way this that people who
have been marginalized historically are often used as
sort of like villainous characters in the superhero
genre and trying to do like an Afro futurist commentary with
Wakanda, which is fascinating. And now he's doing that here
with Sinners in like the Western genre, the horror genre.
It's very inspired. And he's been very emotional in
this press run too. I've heard him cry a few times
on different podcasts, which is amazing to hear an artist feel
that felt about the project when there's so much money at stake.
Usually people get desensitized when you hear them talking about
their $100 million movies. But he really cares that people
go and see this fascinating experiment where he's blending
80s horror camp with this like Western world building with like
this spiritual musical element running through the whole movie.
He really, really cares about the subject and you feel that in
Sinners. It's a very immersive and and I
loved being in the world. Yeah, and also like, it's just
nice as a side note, I guess like to hear someone who is a
man, like crying openly and just being like a vulnerable, you
know, and not having it be in, you know, no shots.
And Andrew Garfield, like love you but but have it feel kind of
performative, like I am vulnerable, man.
He gets a pass. He does.
Garfield gets a pass. His him and his sweaters did a
great press run. OK, but you know what I mean?
Like aside from his like beautiful Elmo kind of
interviews, not I'm not talking about that specifically, right,
Like the reason he took we live in time, but other interviews
that made me feel. Some of it felt worse, more like
wasn't at the Oscars, where he was, like, talking about how
much his mom loved the person who was on stage.
And she was like, oh, thanks. Yeah.
He was like, yeah. But I mean, I guess just like
other things in general, like, but yeah, so I, I, I as a just a
kind of aside, it's just, it's nice to to see like that openly,
I think for, for other men too. No, I agree.
Maybe you learn something. It's.
Refreshing. Yeah.
Maybe we should. So with sinners, I, like we
already said, we feel complicated.
If you've listened to my reaction, then, listeners, you
already know Kelsey. Before we go further into the
plot, the narrative, I want to ask you how you're doing because
you've now been forced in the past six months to talk about
vampire movies. That's true.
Yeah, that's true. And I know you do not like a
creature feature. I don't and you know, so long
time listeners know that I just like, don't like vampires.
You know, I and I don't, I didn't like it for Nosferatu.
That was a huge kind of like barrier for me to get over.
Ultimately, I ended up thinking Nosferatu is boring because it
didn't do anything with I'm I'm OK if a filmmaker does something
interesting with the vampire IP, right?
It has a very long history and the idea of like, you know,
vampire sucking someone's blood or kind of exploitation, you
know, messages that you could do within that, like that, all is
fine. But still, vampires are boring
to me. I don't know exactly what it is.
Maybe I'll pinpoint it later. Unless that vampire is
glistening in the sun in a forest and sprinting 200 mph.
Yeah. Stewart on their back.
There are moments of Twilight, but I Don't like you have more
of a nostalgic relationship to Twilight than I do, no.
It's just a masterpiece there's. No, no, actually it's just a
five star movie. No movie has ever explained
seasonal depression than Twilight.
I think also there's like some Robert Pattinson, Kristen
Stewart. You know I love with both of
them. History that yeah, so there are,
you know, pieces. But even then, like I'm bored by
the vampire aspects of Twilight and that is also something
that's a part of Sinners. Like I am bored about from the
vampire of it all. And there are some more
interesting things that I will talk about today that I do think
Coogler is doing with the vampire lore.
But ultimately I think it stays like within the like camp
elements a lot and like ultimately doesn't tonally shake
out enough for me to be like, Oh yeah, I really loved this movie.
Right. Like I liked it.
But and the vampire thing is already something that I have to
like a hurdle. For me, it's really any like
creature feature. Like people are like, well,
people might be listening to this and being like, well,
Kelsey, don't you like the thing?
I like the conversations with the people in rooms for the
thing, but I don't really like the creature feature part of it.
I get bored by it. I understand, I understand John
Carpenter's like, you know, whatever, like it's technical
aspects, blah blah blah with the.
You don't have to defend yourself.
That's me. I'm.
I think it's a masterpiece. It's one.
Of my favorites, I also get bored by the Mummy do.
You can't even do comedy. Do I love adventure comedies?
Who? Brendan Fraser, Not Brendan
Fraser. Rachel Vice.
Do I love Rachel Vice? We all do.
Yes. OK, but and and Brendan Fraser
in in that movie or Fraser. I apologize.
Yeah, Sorry, but I'm bored by the mummy aspects.
I don't know what it is about the creature of it all.
I don't like ghosts. It's not because I'm like afraid
at all. I it's actually like the
opposite. I just genuinely get bored.
I don't know what. Yeah, I mean, maybe someone
listeners. Maybe This is why it's actually
maybe good to have a podcast because I was going to say like,
is there any creature that I like?
Can I like break this at all? Maybe someone can comment if
you're like. I know Kelsey has talked about a
creature she's liked. I think it's because you treat
real violence so seriously, like you're, you're so terrified by
like serial killer movies and stuff like that and you love
that genre for that reason. And me too.
But I think the supernatural stuff it just doesn't work with.
I don't. Know OK aliens I would say.
I would say I like the alien creature feature, but that also
has to do a lot with me really. Being interested when film
makers are exploring, like, religion and capitalism in space
is usually within like, the Alien franchise.
So that's where I live. That's also a part of it.
Like, yeah, yeah. So.
No, I hear you. I mean, this is also like not
exactly the most. I don't know, how do I put this?
It does a lot of new things with the vampire mythos.
It's a new iteration on vampires, which I'm really
excited to talk about when we get into the story.
But this movie is also very operatic.
It is very borderline cheese ball, it is.
There's a fire tornado. Yeah, there is very maximalist,
but all that is going to land in an entertaining and fun way
because the movie doesn't treat itself that seriously, which is
nice. But also it does kind of jump
between these big tones of seriousness, of campness, of
absurdity or elevated premise to the point where you're kind of
like when we get to the end and it goes back to Sirius, it
doesn't. If it doesn't feel cohesive to
some people, I think that's fair.
Like for us, I don't think it feels cohesive.
And so therefore, because it feels like a really ambitious
swing of ideas and tones and genres.
And I really appreciate what Coogler's doing with the world
building and the original storytelling and then trying to
reclaim these genres and reshape the archetypes and, and claim
back different tropes, but also leave certain tropes in there
which might be more questionable.
I think that's all really ambitious.
But then by the end of the movie, I'm feeling a little bit
flat because there's just too much that happened.
I felt overwhelmed and there were great highs like there's a,
and again we're in spoiler territory.
There's a musical sequence in this movie that breaks the whole
movies logic, the film logic, which is amazing and very
surreal. And I had a roller coaster of
emotions while watching it, which I know it's just something
people say, but I really did feel that way.
And by the end of it I was like, no, that was awesome.
I'm glad that I was here opening night on this Wednesday seeing
this movie, but it does feel like a film kind of daring you
to keep up with itself. And then by the end, I felt like
I was really missing something to hold onto.
And I felt like it was just a little bit too jumbled include
like ideas to tone to character arcs.
So. I felt that way too.
I mean, that's ultimately like why it didn't totally work for
me, even though I I had a really good time and a lot of parts of
it. Yeah, it was mostly like I, I
really liked the setup of the movie.
Like I think in our most anticipated movie episode, which
is like, so fun to record. This year's going to be awesome.
But I talked about how number one, I like, I'm excited for
Ryan Coogler's movie and I'm seated, but I am nervous about
the vampire aspect and then also the idea of like CGI twins.
Which? Is something that like actually
didn't work for me that much in Mickey 17, even though it's a
part of the plot of him being like a double and it's a part of
also like the thematic right message of that movie.
But here I'm surprised to say it actually did not bother me at
all. I actually liked it a lot.
I loved Michael B Jordan's performances as both the twins
and. Yeah, So that like, seeing
Michael B Jordan's characters at the beginning of this movie
actually really worked for me. The kind of setup of the world,
this kind of mystery around like what are they doing?
Like who are they close with? Right.
There was like a lot of like kind of tension build up at the
very beginning that I thought like Hoogler did really well,
especially even when we have like the introduction to the
vampires. I thought that was all set up
really well. I was like, oh, what's going to
happen? Like who is this guy when he's
standing outside of the like the the.
The Juke Club. Yeah, the club I was like, oh
OK, like this what's like, I was in right at that point.
But then once we got into the actual vampire part, that's
where I kind of was out. Like once everyone got bit, I
started to lose steam because I felt like the tension kind of
stopped building as much. And I know that was purposeful
in terms of like having conversations about like should
I save my brother? Like what is the vampire
represent essentially right, Who is getting bit also.
But it was it. It wasn't balancing like the
interesting parts of it with the can't be parts of it for me
enough where I just kind of felt.
I think flat is a good word too by by the end of it.
Yeah. Do you think regular audiences
are going to walk in, be entertained in moments and then
walk out and think, what did I just watch?
But in a good way? Or do you think people are going
to be like, this is a masterpiece or are they going to
be allergic to the film subverting genre in this way or
or twisting genre in this way? Like how do you think audiences
are going to react this weekend? Like I assume it's going to make
a lot of money because there's so much like press going on with
the film and critics. Literally like all critics
except for our podcast, I guess. Or like this is, this is like a
four and a half, five star movie, right?
So do you think normal moviegoers are going to be OK
with this movie? It depends on whether they like
campy horror movies. I think that's really the thing.
Like I think some people will really enjoy it for the the
pulpy aspects of it that I also, I think that's like something
else to, to, to say like I, I don't enjoy those parts of like
Tarantino movies, right? Like those are just things that
I don't really, I don't know. I'm, I'm like, not as as excited
by by that like. What about the like melodrama?
The humor like do. You think, OK, this movie, I
think the humor like will really land.
Yeah, I thought that was like a really big strength of the movie
was the were the like funny like inserts of it.
The character building was really good.
But I I'm so interested to see you like what general audiences
think, because I think it will be kind of split like if you're
not into vampire horror, kind of silly, but still has like a
message. I'm not I'm not sure.
Like what do you think? I.
Think people are going to love it?
I think it's not pretentious and I think when you watch Nope and
you're a normal movie goer, it feels too dense.
It feels like there's too much going on.
The different storylines don't feel like they're connecting,
and you have to watch it 3 or 4 times to really appreciate it in
terms of what it's doing. And used to be a real film buff
too, and to a certain degree to like really see through what
Peele was trying to do there. And it's like such a historical
text in many ways that's so layered.
And then I'm only comparing these two movies, not just
because they're black film makers, obviously.
And and Jordan Peele and Ryan Coogler are playing in a similar
genre, which is like funny horror.
But it's also because the commentaries are pretty similar
about inequality in the history of it and the history of culture
and who gets to claim culture and who co-ops it and
assimilation. And so there's just a lot of
similar ideas, which isn't surprising because Jordan
Peele's been up to that for three Movies Now.
His fourth movie is coming out apparently next year, which is
really exciting. But I think people are going to
be like, oh, no, this was really entertaining.
And I saw two hot Michael B Jordans fight vampires at the
end of this film and kill a bunch of Nazis.
Yeah, I guess that's true. OK, OK, Klux Klan.
Members, but I'm called them Nazis, sorry.
Yeah. Well, I think that, yeah, I
think that it will be interesting to see like, though,
if people are leaving this movie like with a message or if
they're able to just like escape it, if that makes sense, in
terms of like, oh, that was a fun, campy horror movie.
Because I would hope that they would get the messages that I
think are interesting in this movie that Coogler is is
interested in. I was thinking about actually
like us. Like I now that you're just
talking about Peel, I actually liked us because it was so
elevated, but in service of the the really like in depth message
where people couldn't get over like certain parts of the the
kind of elevation of that, but. Even the movie to have a logic,
yeah. It was like, and so like, I
guess that's just how I I feel about vampires.
Like I guess that's just, I can't, I don't know, I'm the the
fire tornado. They were like aspects of it
that just really took me out. But yeah, I think I hope people
will will like it because ultimately, like, I want, you
know, Coogler to kind of like keep growing and I'm excited to
see what he has to do next. Well, I'm like I said at the
top, I'm conflicted. I am in a strange place right
now reading a bunch of reviews from critics I really admire who
I it was a where I was expecting some of these critics to be a
little bit more open minded about their criticism and like
giving a more thorough breakdown of this movie.
But frankly, something's really surprised me, but in a good way,
because I think everybody's rallying around Coogler right
now. A lot of the criticism about
sinners is just saying essentially, it's really cool
how bold this movie was. It's really awesome that it was
made. I'm really happy for Ryan
Coogler. I can't believe this got funded
and it is so musically powerful. It's thematically layered, but
everything is on the surface enough for everybody to really
pick it up. And so there isn't a lot of
subtext. It's all really text.
But the text is really interesting.
And the environment speaks to that too, with Jim Crow era.
And then also the vampires being a little bit twisted here in
terms of using them as a metaphor with this like Faustian
bargain in terms of like what these characters are willing to
sacrifice for stability and what that means.
And do they even have a choice? And we can talk about all that.
And so there's a lot to in this movie to love.
I just, again, I think there are a lot of critics.
Maybe not taking the time, in my opinion, to talk about how the
film is intentionally messy and like in its mess, I think it
actually becomes a really cinematic and fun and and
unpredictable. And for me, I still felt by the
end that it was so oddly shaped. I can never hold on to anything,
right? And like I already said, I was
just overwhelmed by the the so much stuff going on.
It's a lot, right? Yeah, it's similar to like how
we saw kind of criticisms of like Babylon or Bow is Afraid,
right, From really big swings that people have talked about,
like I can't believe this got funded and I don't want people
to RIP, you know, this apart in any way.
Like Babylon or Bow Is Afraid was because I actually love
those movies. But and also I don't think
Sinners deserves to be like ripped apart in any way.
But yeah, but I would be interested to see more.
So like like there were certain aspects of this in terms of the
the tones that I would just be interested to see like what
people also think about. And there's underdeveloped
character arcs. Like I think there's other
characters in the periphery of this movie that we didn't spend
a lot of time with. Everybody is purposely an
archetype and so because of it, them being archetypes that
Coogler knows the audience is well aware of, then he has
tropes and then for some of those tropes, he reclaims them.
Especially for the like the black male characters in this
movie. That was really interesting and
like, I think super cool of Coogler to do that.
Like that's a hard thing to do. But also there were other tropes
that he kind of left sitting there that then became
problematic and questionable that I was confused about why he
did those things. There are a lot of parts of this
movie that I think are that have holes or flaws that are just not
been explored yet. And I guess I'm just bringing
this up because it feels very strange, But I'm I'm down for
all of us just to be like, let's go to the theatre.
Let's eventize this. Let's make it a Barbie
Oppenheimer moment. And like, let's get this movie
up to 200 three $100 million. Let's GameStop this film.
Like I'm into that but it just feels like a weird moment.
Yeah, I just feel like especially with the characters
who are women in this this movie, that's maybe also
something that kept me at a distance.
Like I understood what he was doing specifically with Hailee
Steinfeld's character of like this white passing woman being
unaware, right? Of like of what she basically
like how she's like almost causing danger, right.
And so I like that's not my my issue with in terms of like the
writing of her character or like there were some specific like
moments. Where is it, Annie?
Yeah, Annie's the character Wumi Masaku.
Yeah. Yeah, like, she has a lot to do,
but at the same time, like, her characterization feels really
limited. It feels like a lot of the women
are like they're and, and most of their dialogue is there for
like sexual purposes. And that felt just like really,
it felt like the character, OK, this is how I felt like the
women in this movie and the way that they were like underwritten
felt like they were in a 2000s movie.
And I think that put me at a distance.
Like especially the first line that Hailee Steinfeld has to say
to Michael B Jordan. I was like, come on.
And then also like later on when the when the vampire bites, I'm
forgetting the character's name but the store owner.
Yeah, Lee Jung Lee's character. Yeah, Who's also in Babylon,
right? Yeah.
And she's awesome. But all the performances were
great. But I think, like, even what he
said to her, like now I know all these facts about you and I even
know this, like sexual fact about you.
It's just like everything felt so cringy in terms of the the
writing about sex and the way that the women were positioned
in this story that that also kind of put me at a distance
because I already wasn't in on the like camp vibes as much.
I did like the flame tornado, even though I've been joking
about it. I thought that was fun.
And I and I also really liked whenever a vampire showed up, we
got this like metal guitar music.
Like I thought it was so fun. Or like, we cut, you know, it
literally did a cut to a full moon once we find out he's a
vampire. And it's like, you know, like
that shit's fun. And like Delroy Lindo, who is
amazing in this movie. And.
I think Spoiler Alert is going to deserve my extra credit
because besides Michael B Jordan playing Twins, I think his humor
and his also like the the depths of like the tragedy he's able to
express in his conversation in the car.
Like it just such a good performance.
But the comedy and humor that Coogler writes like with him and
how he's able to perform that, like, that's also a really big
plus. But yeah, like I think just the
the women, right, felt underwritten.
That put me at a distance. And then the tonal shift that
we've kind of been talking about.
But maybe I'll give an example of where I was.
I was just kind of felt like back and forth a lot in terms of
tones was like, I loved all the build up of following the twins,
right? Like shooting someone in the
leg, just being like, well, sorry, like I just can't have
someone telling anyone that they stole from me.
That was all really fun. But then once we get into the
actual club, there were moments where I was like, OK, I, I like
how we're in the club and then like we're focusing on Sammy and
we're we're building up to his performance.
But there were moments in the in that space where like we go to
side rooms or side conversations like that felt like if you've
ever seen a play live, which I guess I've really only seen like
non professional or I don't know if they're like student
productions in college. But this is what it reminded me
of in terms of like everyone. There's like a, a kind of like
party scene or something like that, right?
And then it's like you have a conversation to the side or two
characters go in the spotlight goes to them.
And then it's like everyone's like silently dancing on the
stage. Does that make sense?
And then we hear they're like to the side conversation on stage.
That's what it felt like. Like the, I don't know if it was
the sound mixing in that moment, but I didn't feel like I was
still at a club. I was like, wait, this, this is
like a very open space. I feel like I'd hear, you know,
a lot of like noise in the background.
And like that was also taking me out of it because it felt like I
was really jumping from different spaces that were in
the same space. So I wasn't able to like I just
felt like the atmosphere wasn't being created seamlessly like in
that that one space. So that kind of like took me
out, even though I thought the conversations were interesting,
but that that's kind of an example of the tonal thing that
I'm talking about. I loved the whole like what's
happening with the vampire, right?
That threat of tension was great.
Once we get to the planning to like kill the vampire, that's
also interesting. But then I was like sad because
once once the the store owner sorry I need to just have the
cast open on my phone. There's Grace.
But once we have grace say like come in, come in, everyone to
the vampires, it happened so quick like and I agree, I didn't
get to really enjoy like the the fight sequences.
I don't know. We spent too much time like
eating garlic trying to. See who's a vampire?
Yeah. So, yeah, so I I just felt like
the payoff wasn't there. I felt like the payoff was there
in the very last scene where we see like everyone get shot right
the. KKK guys, Yeah.
I mean, that was exactly. Yeah, so, but I felt like it we
just felt we spent a long time building up to the vampires,
like trying to get in. And then once they finally did
get in, while it was really like wild, right to see this whole
fight sequence and like the grace character burns alive to
like essentially save her kid, right to and kill her husband,
which is like tragic. And then we have the whole
sequence of of possibly having to like kill his brother and
then also the like big bad Irish dude.
But I don't know. It just felt, it felt like I
that was like too short lived or and like wasn't focused on the
the theme totally at that point. Because then we get to the the
end point in the water and I'm, I'm a little distracted by the
way that it's cut in terms of like Michael B Jordan shaking,
watching what he can't believe is like happening before his
eyes while still trying to save Sammy of the the vampire.
I think once he sees sunlight, right, he like burns into the
the flame tornado, which is like maybe fifth time I've said flame
tornado. But but like that was really
fun. But the way it was cut, I was
like, I know I'm watching Michael B Jordan look at
something that's fake, if that makes sense.
Like I was, I don't, I don't know.
So there just moments like that that I just wasn't fully on
board at all moments. There was some artifice that
distanced you and some artifice that pulled you in.
Yes. Yeah.
And that's exactly how I felt. Like.
I think we had a very similar experience.
I think, you know, we can get into the narrative a little bit
more beat by beat here because I want to ask you if you like the
first act versus second act in particular, because the first
act is really this Western character building, assembling
the Ocean's 11 team, the musical group, and the second act is the
introduction to the vampires. And that changes the whole tone
of the movie. But before I do, just to cap our
conversation about how this movie has issues and why we can
reconcile the fact that it's important to acknowledge the
importance of original storytelling in Hollywood right
now because there's so much IP slop out there.
Just copy and paste BS that were forced to watch a movie theaters
that studios clearly want to eventually send us to our
couches so they can force us to pay movie theater money.
If you watch streaming movies like that is definitely
something that they're they're planning on.
It feels like they're close. And so it's really important for
all of us to go see Sinners. And so I do want all of our
listeners who are still listening, who have not seen
this film to check it out. If you've already seen it, we're
going to go see it a second time.
So I I recommend people go see this multiple times just to get
to tell studios. Not only do we want new
storytellers getting capital to tell big movies like this with a
large scale, but we also want original movies.
We want that please, like take our money and let's do this and
and don't fuck with us. Like let us have this.
My only issue with the whole the criticism, the lack of criticism
of this movie in the kind of non critical reaction is that where
was all this for the woman king? Where was all this for Nope?
Where was all this for Judas and the Black Messiah?
Like I, I guess I'm kind of missing that where those movies
came out and I was like, these are some of the great movies of
the year, some of the most important films that we've seen
in this decade, in the twenty 20s that are being torn apart as
if the greatest film makers alive who've had decades of
making movies had made them. Yeah.
Like The Woman King had more essays about why that was
problematic and questionable than I'd seen from any any movie
in a long time. And that's a really complicated
conversation. We had that one and we had on
people from the movie and talked about that one quite a bit.
But Judas and the Black Messiah, people didn't even see that.
You know, that was a little bit of a pandemic issue, but still
nonetheless. Nope, we already mentioned, but
like there are movies and I'm sticking with like black made
films in this case. But like, it's just it's a
little bit disappointing to me that the that the there wasn't a
huge crowd and A and a kind of like monoculture around those
movies. And for this one, I'm glad that
it exists. I just feel it feels kind of
almost condescending to Ryan Coogler to not have some more
deeper conversations about what really didn't work in this movie
since we all acknowledge that it's so special that it exists
in the 1st place. Right.
Yeah. So that's kind of my energy
going into this deeper conversation.
So Act one versus Act 2. What do you did you like the
western of it all? You've talked about the town a
couple times, like Michael B Jordan and his brother meeting
up and then parting ways, eventually getting Sammy on
board and then following which who are let's let's establish
our brother's name so Michael B Jordan plays Smoke and Stack.
And who's the twin who wears the Red Hat?
That's Smoke. Wait, no, that's Stack.
Stack is the one who's a little bit more volatile, who you think
is going to be the more like Robert De Niro, like this is
Goodfellas. And actually that's probably
more Smoke who's like literally like shooting guys in the street
being like don't mess with me. And so they have an interesting
dynamic that is kind of subverted by the end of the film
where Smoke is actually the guy who's a little bit more
reactionary, I think. And Stack is actually just kind
of what seems to be has been the almost.
They treat him like he's the younger brother, even though
they're twins, which is fascinating because it seems
like Smoke really took care of his brother when their dad was
abusive. And they kind of get into that
that. Back well, if anyone's ever been
friends with like twins or triplets or like, you know,
there's always a conversation about like someone being
younger, which is funny, but. But yeah, they got that across.
So we get introduced to the team.
We have Michael B Jordan's smoking stack, We've Hailee
Steinfeld's Mary. We have Miles Katon's Sammy.
We have Juanie Misaku's Annie. We have Jamie Lawson's character
who is the person that Miles Caton's characters into Sammy's
into who has a partner I think. And then Delroy Lindo's Delta
Slim, Omar Benson Miller's Cornbread, Lee Jung Lee's Grace
Chow. And then Yao is her partner
beau. And I think there's some other
characters like some KKK characters too.
And then the the big villain who will get to in the second act,
which is Jack, Jack O'connell's Remic, who is the the Irish
vampire who maybe has been around for.
He's there for a quality and music.
Yeah, apparently we're going to get into that.
So what did you like more? Did you like the act on the
building this huge, you know, set up before this terrifying
nightmare of, of a, of a night at this, at this place with the
vampires? Like which?
Which of these two acts did you like more?
I well, it's hard because I did like once we were, once we found
out that there was a vampire, I was like, what's going to
happen? But I think like the moments of
like eating garlic and stuff like those went on too long.
And so I actually think the first half worked way more for
me on reflection, even though I, it's like I enjoyed the the
action of the second-half more and I did like campy aspects of
it. And I like I said, the the music
cues, but I think like in terms of actually reflecting on it, I
think the first half was just better for me because of the
tension building. I really liked when we had like
the the build up of learning about both of the twins.
I thought Michael B Jordan did a really good job of like having
distinct characters and also like figuring out who is Sammy,
right? And so I I liked that.
I liked when the vampire like comes on the scene, that was
like a really good jump shot when he just like enters frame.
Yeah, running to the house in the middle of the desert.
Yeah, which we. Haunted down by do.
We ever know. Indigenous vampire killers,
right? Yeah, which like is a movie in
itself. I I wonder and also a really
great scene too, when they're like trying to help this woman
who like is actively like protecting, right?
There's that kind of like theme that's really interesting of
this like self preservation, but also protecting this white guy
doesn't even know right who kills her and her husband, I
think and. Maybe they're baby too.
I. Saw I saw a crib they have.
In a crib they're sitting next to I think.
But when when he like drops in the to the scene and I was going
to ask like, do we know if he can fly?
We had some like cut scenes where he is jumping really high.
But is that? I'm a little bit confused why
Coogler and his team and DP decided to not give us too much
of the vampires and like what they can do.
I know that it created tension. Like when we see him first fly
up behind Hailee Steinfeld we literally grabbed each other's
like shoulders. We're like holy shit this is
crazy because. Was it behind her or?
It was behind her. He was going to bite her and
then we never see him bite her and then she shows up and then
you know. Oh, right, right, right.
Yeah. But then he flies down again to
he flies up to get Sammy, then flies down back to get Sammy.
But we never really see the full picture.
We never really zoom out. That's what I would say about
this film. We're on the ground level with
these characters a lot. So I never really get a feel for
the world outside. When we're in the the
plantation, you can kind of see the the vastness of it, which
again speaks to the themes of this movie that are distressing
and unsettling. But besides that, you're really
kind of at the at the ground level with these characters,
whether you're in town with them at the Juke joint or whether
you're outside for the most part, especially at night time,
you're you're not able to see the full world.
That I found to be kind of frustrating in the
cinematography that again, I haven't seen a lot discussed.
But I I agree with you. I think the first act, the
building of this 1930s Mississippi, was way more
interesting. The daylight.
Aspect. Oh yeah, I think the world
building and building this vivid picture of like the wooden
porches, the the crates of like liquor, the the street duels
that are going on, that feels like a dusty Western.
I liked Coogler settling into a Western iconography and letting
MBJ also come in with like a a gun and just like tearing down
guys in the middle of the street.
That feels Clint Eastwood like, which again, like black
characters being sort of exploited in this genre, in the
Western genre and the horror genre.
And then again, Coogler coming back with a reclamation project
here is really like a cool meta experience while watching it, if
you're a fan of film in that way.
And then seeing Michael B Jordan really settle into those twin
roles and the distinct differences between them as one
being more energetic and the other one being in more internal
or skeptical. Like I liked all of that.
And I think that was really dramatic and sometimes
melodramatic. What really surprised me is
Sammy. He he's the one who we're first
introduced to in the film. He's the real protagonist of the
movie, played by Miles Katyn, who I talked about in the first
review we did for this film yesterday.
But he is a vocalist in real life.
I think he's only 20 years old or something like that, and this
is his acting debut and he really is the emotional and
thematic center of this film. Character wise, Sammy is a Blues
prodigy in the movie, kind of has a voice of a a prophet if
you will, and has the the soul of someone caught in between his
family's past and his own, kind of like uncertain future that we
will see at the end of the film in a post credit scene.
And he has this conservative pastor father who preaches that
music is sinful and Coogler really smartly.
I think the smartest theme of this movie and idea is this idea
that there's this emancipating power of music that has this
cultural legacy that is then juxtaposed with this
homogenizing destructive force of like a Church of an
institution of religion. And then also the homogenizing
group of vampires who to me, I think sort of represented like
this, the devouring, like capitalist fate that we all feel
like our cultures are being ripped from us.
Even this Irish man, like his Irishness has been like branded
and commodified. And juxtaposing that with the
these other people who have been like stolen from their countries
is really interesting. And then talking about like the
spectrum of oppression through that is really fascinating.
So I love what he does with Sammy and just the idea of music
and the musicality running through this movie is a major
theme for how like music and speak to different generations
and culture and and legacy and and it being this important art
form that we can't let be totally, you know, distilled
down to like this. This product, yeah, yeah.
And also the the scene that you were talking about earlier,
right? Like it literalizes that.
And I like how Ryan Coogler kind of played with there are like a
lot of musical numbers in this, Even the Irish vampire, right?
Like has his own musical. He was killing it.
But like obviously the like stand out 1 is when Sammy sings
at the club and we have kind of like Coogler also doing
something that we usually see in musicals where there is like a
breaking of reality almost in a, in a musical number.
And then we like go back to the reality of the the world where
and and I thought that was like really interesting to put in
this movie and also just really surprising too, because we're in
a vampire movie, right? Like that is heightened.
That is like a a can't be horror vibe that is also like this
drama between brothers and but but to like have all the
different like people come like physically right into the actual
club dancing around Sammy as we kind of have the like monologue
about the like power of music. That was like, I mean, obviously
like a really interesting scene and and an example of like why I
am seated for like cooler's movies.
Like I'm, I want to see like what?
Like I'm like, Oh, that's so cool that I just got to like see
what how he literalized that on screen.
It's kind of the encapsulation of my thoughts on this movie,
which is like, I'm so glad it exists.
I feel lucky to have seen it in a theatre.
It feels very special. It feels also out of place with
the whole movie. And I think that's kind of how I
feel about a lot of the moments in this film that have high
highs. Like this high high feels really
out of place. And was it incredible to like
see people from the past? Like you have masked W African
dancers, you have 19th century field workers, you have tribal
like percussionists, you got people like you got DJ
scratching vinyl. Like there's like funk music
going on. There's also like contemporary
rap music and hip hop culture going on.
There's a lot of stuff happening that speaks to the ideas of this
movie. It's surreal and overwhelming
and sometimes like hallucinogenic in a really
successful way. And it's the best visual
metaphor of getting across this idea of like this vision of, of
lineage through music and how art is really important to
express lives lost or lives that could be in the future.
And like how we can talk about different cultures and making
sure that they're not commodified and not homogenized
by our capitalist system or by, you know, powers that be that
want to do those things. And so I thought all of that was
like really cool and great ideas.
But again, I'm like, so glad I got to see it.
And I was like, I wish either the film was like this, like had
a bunch of these surreal moments or that I wish it was like this
Western. There were like 3 or 4 different
parts of this film that I was like, I wish I just watched this
movie and I know for some people they're going to be like, well,
it all worked for me. It was cohesive.
I feel like that's good that I wanted more of each of these
segments, these tonal or genre segments or these these feelings
that are being expressed. I wanted more of this because
there there could be a franchise of sinners movies or whatever.
I just needed something I think I I could grab onto more, hold
on to more. And maybe that's a little bit of
my own genre pilled brain that I feel like I need some kind of
comfortable rules or or a framework to hold onto.
But then I was also trying to be like, you know, self aware and
maybe it just is very messy and it's excitingly messy, but still
messy. And so that matters too.
Yeah, no, I mean, that's how I felt too.
I think I I loved the scene, but I ultimately was like, this just
doesn't feel like what I was like building up to or like we
just moved on quickly from. It felt like a lot of different
ideas that were like segmented in the movie more so like I, I
felt like there wasn't there wasn't like transitions or like
a seamless kind of thing that put them together for me.
Like for me, what was most interesting about the movie and
I wish like was more explored just like personally was like,
'cause I was going to say like instead of the camp, but not
instead of the camp because like that's like what the movie is.
I think more so leaning into it and is actually successful at
even though the vampires just don't work for me personally.
What were the like? I I wish the movie lean more
into the like the brothers a little bit more.
I thought I was like the most successful part of the movie,
like the reaction for Michael B Jordan to Michael B Jordan dying
like that was really like powerful.
And I believed that like, even though he understood that he may
have become a vampire and was now this like danger and threat
that he still wanted to save his brother.
And also, I think the tension between the brothers in terms of
like the the kind of like detail, right, of not taking the
the money that people who are living in this town are like
using. Like that was an interesting
specific like conversation intention that they were coming
back to. That also spoke more to the the
kind of like goals and constraints of the brothers that
they also were were facing like in Chicago and Mississippi.
And so like I, I think like that specific aspect, like I wish I
learned more about their time in Chicago.
I wish I learned more about like kind of the maybe the racism
that also exists, right, Like not only in the South, in the US
and also the kind of which it was there, but like kind of the
capitalism themes of like the specific money we got the gold,
right, Like that was it felt symbol, but very.
Clearly. Yeah, but I, yeah, that's I, I
wish it like took that theme and conversation and tension between
the brothers like a little bit more into the vampire part of
the story. Yeah, they brought it up earlier
in the movie too. And Annie didn't want MB JS
characters money and she was like I don't want that money.
I have this money and that's like blood soaked.
Yeah, that's, that's what I was the part I was talking.
About oh, OK, yeah, there. I mean, there's a few moments
like that. I think Coogler has always been
exploring this idea, which is like how to reckon with the fact
that those who are oppressed are being forced to use the tools of
the oppressor to survive and like build any kind of form of
stability. And then this Juke joint
becoming this place like this faux utopia of where a community
can live and through different cultures of their past and maybe
their future and the present obviously.
And then having these two KKK people turned vampires and this
one Irish guy who is trying to, like, steal your culture and
commodify it and take it as his own because the emancipating
power of music is dangerous. And like Sammy has it and you
know, Jack O'connell's character wants to steal it for himself.
And then say that, well, at least we have a quality, right?
We're we're living this post discrimination world.
Vampires live forever. We don't worry about things like
as trivial as our like subcultures or our identities.
We just have each other. We're one big family.
We're all the same. And they really get that point
across. And they're all doing the same
dance together outside the house, which, you know, looks
fun for the actors and the characters, I guess.
But also they're making a point. I guess that's still coming
through. But I guess my my larger, the
interest about that idea with the money, and I think you're
right, is that it just feels a lot of ideals, ideas in this
movie kind of feel in conflict with one another.
They're not totally developed. And I think a lot of it is
because Ryan Coogler has been exploring these ideas for a few,
a few years or basically a decade now, a few movies in a
row. He explored this with Creed, the
class commentary and Creed is the most the most complicated
part of that movie. Black Panther is about this very
idea about Wakanda is this utopia, but then also feeling
the obligation to help others. And then this movie center is
being about like creating some of the first black-owned
businesses, but through this like blood stained money that
was acquired through exploiting your people and your culture.
And like the paradox of that. And like I just they these ideas
haven't fully it's a through line of his project, but I don't
think he's fully successfully executed on those ideas.
And it's something we talked about again with Nope, which is
about these very ideas too. That that movie, I think does it
masterfully. That's just a a brilliant
screenplay that are I'm only comparing again because it's
literally the same idea when it comes to like the cost of
assimilation, the cost of the American dream that I think
Sinner struggles a little bit more with because it's trying
also to be so entertaining. It's trying to be Spielberg.
Yeah. So I mean it, yeah.
And silly. And it is like, you know, 'cause
I think that's. What reminds me of dressing?
People who loved it, yeah, people who loved it might be
like you all are wanting a different movie.
This was like a Carpenter creature feature, even though
our vampires creature features. I don't know, but like but in
that right, like kind of vain. But I think that like I what
you're saying, like Coogler is coming back to these themes and
questions. It's like something that I
wanted to see continued because that was the most interesting
part of the movie to me at the beginning.
That wasn't continued on. And then we went more to the
kind of spectacle aspects of vampire vampiring, vampirism,
vampire, whatever the vampires are doing.
But yeah, so, so that that's ultimately I think like how how
I felt and why I liked it and I was like immersed in the world.
I just was like, I left the theater.
I think like wanting more and just not like as as excited by
some of the the parts of it that I maybe should have been in the
moments of the the vampire of it all.
We can end on this note because I think we already talked about
the third act being sort of a mess choreography wise and and
being rushed in like the fighting sequences, except for
the shootout, which is great from MBJ, who has always been a
great action superstar. But clearly, like he is now
transcended. Whatever tear that like Chris
Evans is in, like Michael B Jordan is like in a special
place. Yeah.
Like below a Tom Cruise or Will Smith or maybe a Brad Pitt.
But he's like around that tear of actor.
I don't know where he is in the current kind of super stardom of
guys who can like lead a movie that are $100 million, but he's
up there. He's up there.
Yeah, But I was going to say that Ryan Coogler, in
interviews, he talks about this movie being his final crack at
this idea of like a, a Faustian bargain, which is something I
explored on my my last, you know, the reaction episode for
this movie. And I just don't think he
totally got that across. I don't think people are walking
out of the theater wondering about the sacrifice people are
forced to contend with in capitalism.
Like I don't think that's the the commentary people are
walking away with in this movie. I think it's more if anything,
people walk away with the idea of like what I've been saying,
the the emancipating power of music, which is good enough as
like a theme. That's a pretty strong theme
that the fact that this movie's sort of a musical is wild to me
because that wasn't in the marketing at all, but it really
is. And it from Ludwig Gorenson's
score and then the sound designers who in the mixers,
especially that one musical scene in the movie, they did a
wonderful job and they probably will deserve Oscars a year from
now. But when it comes to like
Coogler, trying to explore this idea that people's identities
have become brands for others to steal or commodify and that can
be tracked, backed in our history as a country to our
roots. I think I'm not sure that people
are walking out of centers with that.
And so I I appreciate that. And it makes me like the movie
more. And I think this is what a lot
of critics are running into right now, which is the fact
that can you separate your relationship to how cool and
smart Ryan Coogler is from this movie's messiness?
And I don't think a lot of people can.
But if I watch this movie, like at a random Film Festival and
didn't know it was Coogler, I'd be like, wow, this is really
ambitious and bold. But it would have reminded me of
like a a shape shifting genre film that was like a a silly and
fun and sometimes melodramatic, but ultimately had like a really
it had a ceiling because it didn't really know how it wanted
to find a through liner, a coherent vibe or tone or
atmosphere. And it would have reminded me of
that movie that came out a few years ago that I liked.
What was that film with John Boyega?
Oh, Netflix film. Yes.
What was that? Oh, I know what you're talking.
About Oh my God. Oh, I have a big Scooby-doo.
They clone Tyrone. Yeah, right.
It's a very similar movie in terms of the way it's blending
genre and kind of in the conversation with like a
Tarantino vibe that had a ceiling, but it knew it, right.
It knew that it had a ceiling. And then it's commentary was
like smart. But also it didn't it wasn't
preaching, it wasn't didactic. And I feel very similarly to
Sinners, but I just, I can't get on the same like masterpiece
that people are on right now, which is fine, which is fine.
I think I'm just trying to give a lot of context because I know
people feel strongly about this. Film, right?
Yeah. OK, anything else about the
vampires or Jack O'Connell? I think I really explained
really went into a deep dive on my vampire relationship, but I
thought the the vampire performances were fun.
I also something that I didn't talk about, I did enjoy, like
the the kind of like figuring out like who was bit who was not
mystery around, like why the vampire has to be invited into
the into the like the room, right, like those those really
good tension building moments. There's one great moment when
Omar Benson Miller, who is playing Cornbread, tries to come
in and then MBJ sticks his hand out to give him money or
whatever it is, and then he grabs his arm and swings him
out. And then he does like this video
game Resident Evil gunshot to the side.
That was awesome. Like that was a cool action
scene where I was like, where is where is this?
I want to see more of this like that was really well
choreographed. Or like when Lijian Li as Grace
kills her husband or fake husband or like vampire husband
to save her daughter. Like that was a good set piece
and also tragic. There were just I felt like a
lot of moments like that were were missing from the film or
like when Andy dies at the end, even that's a really interesting
character. And Juan Mimosaku gives a good
performance considering what she's given, which I don't think
is a lot with that character in terms of like playing this like
Mystic trope character, even though it's like a very real
depiction of somebody, especially of this era.
But still if it felt very archetypal, if that makes sense.
And so like Coogler talked about wanting to be realistic to this
era in Mississippi, but I still feel like we didn't get enough
character. It just felt like a like a widow
figure, I guess to Michael B Jordan's character because they
lost a child. Yeah, I, I don't know, I, I, I
definitely like, yeah, I talked about the, the underwritten,
like women, I think in the, the movie, even though Andy had the
most to do. But yeah, it was also like
tragic when, you know, Michael B Jordan's character had to like,
kill her too, right, 'cause she like, he promised her basically
to like save her by killing her with the wooden stakes.
So, like all, all that worked. It's just that it was like so
rushed at that point and I was like, I, I, I didn't really love
the build up inside, like between the characters.
I felt a little forced just in terms of like planning of what
what they were going to do, trying to figure out what the
vampires were there for. I was like, why are we inside
this much? For me, I I think we should
though talk about the the coda before we do our extra credits.
Yeah, yeah. OK, let's let's talk about the
post credit scene. We only saw the one of them.
Or wait, why did I say what does coda mean?
I don't know the end of the movie.
Is that accurate? I think so.
Post credit scene. So we have Sammy, who's playing
out a club and it's after his performance and basically like
someone's like, hey, there's two people who want to come in,
they're going to pay money to come in.
And it ends up being Michael B Jordan and Hailee Steinfeld, and
they're vampires who lived forever and.
I they look cool. Yeah, and they were in the 90s,
right? Yeah, or 80s.
Yeah, 90s. And I think they asked Sammy at
that point, like, hey, do you want to like, become a vampire
now? Is that the conversation?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He basically is like I was told
by my brother to let you live because he let me live, right?
And so I've been doing that, but you're hitting your old age, and
I'm just trying to see if you want to be one of us and live
forever. And Sammy is kind of having a
moment and then plays music for those characters and then it
becomes an interesting again, Kugler ISM where he wants us to
now like be more sympathetic to these vampires, right, Which to
me again, the vampires are just people who've assimilated like
that's the metaphor and are basically capitalist.
Like that's how I'm I'm taking I think so.
And then Cougar still being like we can find a way to sympathize
with these people because we're all forced to contend with
living in this reality. And so I think that's the
comment, except Sammy is somebody who's never moved on
from this totally. And when he starts playing this
music. Yeah, because he like, wakes up
in the middle of the night having nightmares about the
night. Yeah, and he's changed the
different ways he's played music.
They Michael B Jordan jokes that he doesn't like the newer stuff.
He likes the older stuff. But what was interesting about
it was that Sammy was sort of using this moment to to kind of
grieve. And then you saw the vampires
kind of get emotional in response to the music, which is
interesting because they're not human.
And so again, Coogler doing some weird stuff that I think allows
him if he wants to, because I don't know if I mentioned this,
but he owns the IP to this for 25 years.
And then Warner Brothers is going to take this IP in 25
years. It's a very rare.
Wait, he owns it for the 1st 20? 1st 25 years and then goes to
Warner Brothers. Oh, I thought he gets it after.
No, he gets it for these first 25.
Yeah, that was the contract. And I think the last time this
happened was is that a new thing, Tarantino movie?
It doesn't happen a lot. Studio execs that's coming out
today have been freaking out about it.
There's been some like journalism and.
Some background research. We're going to lose our money.
We're going to lose our IP, which is like what they've been,
you know, feeding off of. But considering Coogler, the
whole the whole aspect of this movie that's interesting is that
he made an original story. I don't think he's really going
to be like Sinners, the prequel where we follow the Twins into
New York with gangs and like hitting the Irish and the
Italian against one another. Like that sounds awesome.
And like, let's get Martin Scorsese to Co direct that with
Brian Coogler. That sounds really cool.
But I doubt he's going to do that.
Yeah, he could pass it off to other people like Coogler could,
which would be interesting. Like a like a Sinners franchise.
Yeah, I mean. But I like the the coda, I like
the the the first end of credit scene.
Yeah. But I I also think, yeah, it was
interesting because the the vampires, like when we first
meet them, like when Michael B Jordan first gets bit by Hailee
Steinfeld, like, and Hailee Steinfeld is a vampire, like
they are acting essentially like very different from how they
were acting in this end credits scene.
So I was kind of confused about what the message of the vampire
was then ultimately, because Sammy asks and Michael B Jordan,
like, do you still think about that night?
Because it, it scarred me essentially, right.
And he was like, yeah, that was like the last time I saw my
brother, right? Like he.
So yeah, it was like interesting how the vampire, I guess persona
changed from a kind of possession film message in the
in the 30s. And then in the 90s, it was, you
know, there was like a whole different tone or, or I guess
just like even characterization like so that that was confusing
to me too, a little bit. Yeah, I agree.
We can get to our extra credits. So I think we've we've probably
reviewed this long enough. I don't want to be repetitive to
I apologize if I have been or or gals because I think we just we
feel very similar. Don't apologize for no no I I
also don't want to be repetitive.
Well, I just don't want people to hear the same opinions, I
guess, because like on Mickey 17 we discreet a little bit, right?
Like I thought that movie was like, actually it didn't work.
Yeah, this is a good example of like, yeah, because I like to
Mickey 17 more than you. I think you like centers a
little bit more than me. I do, yeah.
Which are both like kind of sci-fi campy.
Right, OK. I know people maybe wouldn't say
Mickey 17 can't be, but I think I think it fits.
So I'm just going to repeat my extra credit from yesterday
because not everybody's listened to that episode, but Ludwig
Goranson's score and the different sound mixing going on
in this movie from his team. And I don't have their names
here, but shout out them. And for people who are invested
in the musicality of this movie, there's a lot of great behind
the scenes features already coming out today and yesterday
on YouTube, I believe. And Del Del Roy Lindo's
performance in this movie we have not really talked about.
I know we said it and I I think it's fine.
We share one here. I the reason I'm giving extra
credit to both of them is I think that they're they're kind
of working in harmony together. And Goransson, even though he
scores the movie, his score is about memory.
His score is about Blues, of course, in like gospel and and
metal and Irish hymns and all these different types of music,
but they're all stitched together to talk through this
idea of how culture can be passed down through music and
art, which is very powerful. And like obviously Coogler doing
that through a cinematic language is very powerful.
And Delroy Lindo, his performance sort of represents
this. And his character represents
this because his character is like carrying generations on his
back, right? He is funny and bitter and he's
like one of the great levity characters of this movie.
But also there's a moment in this film where he's like
driving in the car with Sammy and and B JS character and he
sees people that he knows who are like in this incarcerated
slave labor job and he shouts out to them and he's driving
away and he starts singing for what feels to be like friends
lost in the past or people he doesn't know anymore who are
gone or have been murdered or stuck in those positions of
slavery still in this Jim Crow South.
And it's just a devastating character.
And the music feels like, it's like also the way it bleeds
through the movie feels in conversation with those ideas.
So I think I love how those, the score in that character kind of
speak to one another. And I love how Delroy Lindo's
character also passes down the torch to Sammy in a lot of ways,
like one soul to another, like passing down this music, this
power of music to Sammy. To then speak to people, to
inspire people to learn more about their history, to feel
seen, to feel like you have a culture before somebody comes in
and sucks it out of you, which is the vampire metaphor, I
guess. So those are my extra credits.
Sorry I stepped on. Don't worry, Lindo.
Oh, no, that's fine. I mean, I for the same reasons.
I think especially the the car like sequence was, was what I
kind of identified and his performance really overall.
But I also wanted to give my extra credit to Michael B Jordan
in his performances with the twins because it was something
that I was like really, I guess like, not, you know, I, I just
wasn't like, I, I thought that I would have a little bit of like
apprehension to seeing CGI twins on screen.
Like, I thought it would just put me at a distance and it
didn't. I actually like really cared
about the the brothers. And.
They're like, really as they're as like Michael B Jordan was
acting to himself like I cared about them in a scene together
and it didn't. I wasn't like focused on, oh,
Michael B Jordan was put into the scene or he isn't acting to
anything like that kind of thing that I normally am from like CGI
twins. Yeah, MBJ didn't.
I thought he was going to have more shirtless work, just a
small no, a little bit. But I was expecting like a lot
of twin shirtless action. We didn't get any of that from
Michael Fassbender or really Pattinson that much as their
twin roles and as David and. Then I was.
Like, but I was expecting for for Coogler to let MBJ go for
it, but we didn't get too much. Last thing, extra credit to to
Ryan Coogler, not for just what everybody else has been saying
in terms of making an original movie and making it cinematic
and shooting it in IMAX and talking about the importance of
cinema and doing those amazing. Actually those like those film
format education lessons that he's been doing and, and posting
on YouTube through Kodak and other people which have been
amazing to see him like explain film format to people who are
just like normal moviegoers to movie lovers.
Like it's really awesome and educational and it really is a
free master class and and film making and how film is
important, why it's important to keep this medium alive in
theaters on the big screen. So extra credit to all of that.
And that's what everybody's been repeating on film Twitter and
and all of her critical circles. But I want to give extra credit
just to the idea of of Ryan Coogler continuing to write
screenplays about legacy and continuing to write screenplays
about black characters trying to come out of this expectation
from an audience expectation in a studio, expectation of being
wallowed in like generational trauma.
And Ryan Coogler's talked about this wanting to pivot from like
generational trauma, which is real and it exists, but more to
like generational wisdom and trying to tell more powerful
stories that are more like inspiring and not optimistic,
but inspiring. And those are two different
things. And I have found that to be
truly like beautiful, like amazing running through all of
his movies and especially sinners.
It's like at the heart of this movie and trying to also be
being a director who is one of the only non white film makers
who's given access to make $200 million movies.
Cougar always trying to support and shout out other directors
who are from like historically marginalized positions or
identities. And recently he did this.
I forget what interview it was, but he shouted out AV Rockwell's
1001, which is one of our favorite movies from last year,
which is an incredible film. And you talked to her too,
right? Yeah, she came on the show and
I'm bringing that up because that movie a lot, it is very
much about pushing back against this expectation from really
white audiences and and studios that profit off this idea of
generational trauma and misery. And and that movie be more about
like wisdom that Tiana Taylor's characters passing down to her
son, which is a complicated relationship.
But especially by the end of the film, I don't want to spoil it.
It's an amazing movie. Watch it.
But that's very special. It's a very special through
line. And it's cool that he identified
that movie because I've really seen that theme come across a
lot in this past decade, especially non white film
makers. Yeah, no, I, I think 2001 is was
like really under scene. But yeah, like Ryan Coogler, you
know, obviously comes back to the theme that we've been
talking about throughout the podcast of like, or just just
like exploration of like capitalism throughout his his
movies. But is like really in
conversation with the idea of Hollywood and like films looking
at stories and in terms of like trauma and objectifying Black
characters and only focusing on like exploitation.
And yeah, so I think like generational wisdom is the the
best way to put it is what deserves also like extra credit
in the filmmaking where Black characters are actually like
characters. Yeah, So Sinners, that was the
extra credits of Ryan Coogler's newest film.
I hope this movie makes hundreds of millions of dollars and we
can get more movies like it. Do we?
I will say that Robin song, terrifying Robin song.
The one that they first sing the the white vampires.
The three of them, and they're sitting outside, and Hailey
Steinfeld is just watching them. Yeah.
Well, no, no, no. Before, when they first
introduced themselves, they're like, we're musicians too.
And they're they creepily. Oh yes, yes, yes, yes.
I was surprised they let them sing that long.
I was like these characters, I know them pretty well.
MB JS twins are not going to deal with this much longer.
I thought they're going to get shot like I thought that's when
they were going to realize they were vampires.
Oh, like they're going to shoot the the.
Yeah, the vampires, I thought they're going to shoot the
vampires. So, yeah, I mean, we, we, I
think we critically talked about that movie.
It's a reaction episode, so I'm sure we were all over the place
sometimes. So I apologize if we were, but I
do think this is going to be, if it wasn't being talked about as
a masterpiece, I think I might say this is a really cool B
movie cult classic. Yeah, like it feels like an
instant cult classic. And I I don't mind just saying
that. I guess that's.
Kind of like where I'm at with it.
Yeah, I really enjoyed it. Like with the heightened aspects
of the horror of it, and also like it had something to say,
but it I'm not quite at masterpiece level either.
Yeah, it feels more like an M Night Shyamalan experience than
anything where I watch one of his movies and go, hell yeah,
great. 3 1/2 four-star. Yeah.
Like, this is going to live on in my mind for a long time.
OK, so next we'll be back with, what do you think?
Just Patreon right now. Yeah, Jerry Maguire.
Yes, Jerry Maguire in the apartment back-to-back, which is
really exciting. Probably coming out in the next
week or so, so watch out for that.
Don't forget on Patreon right now in the description of this
episode, you can sign up as a free member to get our deeper
dive into Ryan Coogler's career and B JS career.
We rank some of the Creed movies and Rocky films.
I think we had some hot takes on there about Creed 3, which MBJ
directs fantastically. Really excited for the future of
his film making career. And you can also check out Doom
Part 1 and Florida Projects. Yes.
And please rate and review us on Spotify or wherever you listen
to your podcast. Reviews go a long way.
And then also give Trey some love on his first solo YouTube
video. Just a like is fine.
You don't have to write anything.
It's OK. I mean, comments are apparently
help, but I think you know, it's fine.
I've I've some insecurities about it, but it's fine.
We're going to get through this together.
It's a vulnerable thing, so go give him some love, OK you.
Can't imagine how long that took to record.
OK, alright guys, till next time, peace bye.