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Music hello welcome to the extra
credits of Ryan coogler's 

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Sinners I'm Trey and. 
I'm Kelsey. 

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We're back talking about Coogler
and if you're a fan like us, 

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then we have a surprise for you.
We have a three hour deep dive 

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on Creed right now on our 
Patreon for free members which 

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is very exciting for. 
Some reason I was like, what's 

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the surprise? 
That's it. 

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That's it. 
But for people who like are 

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invested in Coogler's career, I 
guess it's a surprise for you. 

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And it's what, like over three 
hours? 

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No, you're right. 
That's an odd way to start the 

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episode. 
Welcome to Sinners. 

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We got a surprise for you. 
Free content right now on 

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Patreon. 
We have a three hour deep dive 

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of Creed, which is one of Ryan 
Coogler's best films and Michael

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B Jordan's best performances and
has really started this Ryan 

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Coogler renaissance where 
everybody just goes to see one 

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of his movies as if they're an 
event. 

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Yeah, and we talked about the 
Creed franchise on that episode.

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Yeah, that was a long episode in
particular because we talked 

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about MBJ, we talked about 
Coogler's filmography, which 

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we'll do you know that today as 
well when we're talking about 

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sinners. 
But yeah, there's also a lot of 

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like Rocky franchise history 
talk, right? 

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Like how Coogler was both like, 
working within the Rocky 

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franchise, but also, you know, 
making it his own and then. 

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Trying to reclaim the name of 
Creed from the Rocky. 

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Fans, right? 
And also kind of like, you know,

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think about Apollo too in that 
franchise. 

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And then obviously we talked 
about like Michael B Jordan's 

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directorial debut with Creed 3. 
So like, there's a lot going on 

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in that pod, but it was really 
fun. 

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So yeah, we have that and then 
our other two Oscar episodes. 

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Yeah, which are Dune Part 1 and 
The Florida Project. 

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And right now you can head to 
the description of this episode,

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subscribe to us on Patreon as a 
free member, and you can listen 

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to those episodes and get a feel
for what it's like on there. 

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There's no other surprises. 
That's it. 

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That's the only surprise. 
So today is a deep dive. 

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Spoiler alert on Sinners, right?
We've already had a reaction 

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episode that I did solo on 
YouTube yesterday. 

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We've only had a few days to 
think about this movie. 

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We've read articles, read 
reviews, listened to fans 

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online, have listened to some 
podcast in the past 48 hours 

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trying to wrap her head around 
this movie because this seems 

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this seems like it's going to be
one of the biggest hits of 2025,

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if not the first big hit as 
Mickey 17 was a let down 

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domestically even though 
globally it did make a lot of 

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its money back. 
Ryan Cougar is easily one of the

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most exciting American film 
makers of his generation. 

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So I've been highly anticipating
this movie for a long time. 

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When we did our anticipated 
list, it was like #10 for me. 

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Yeah. 
Something like that it. 

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Was it was up there? 
Yeah. 

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Yeah, and, you know, since 
Fruitvale Station 2013, I 

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believe he's brought a real 
singular vision to studio 

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blockbusters with Creed, with 
Black Panther, Wakanda Forever, 

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and he has somehow kept his 
sensibilities right. 

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John Singleton, Spike Lee, 
Martin Scorsese, some of the 

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great film makers that he's 
inspired by that are really 

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grounded, dramatic, great 
directors and writers. 

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And then he's also inspired by 
some great weirdos that are 

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genre film makers that we love 
that either subvert genre or 

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lean into it like a John 
Carpenter or Quentin Tarantino, 

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which you're feeling a lot of 
those two film makers and 

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sinners, which is really 
exciting. 

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There's a lot of, like, camp 
vibes. 

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Yeah, absolutely so. 
Coogler has really carved out a 

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unique space as somebody who 
makes really big movies that are

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thematically rich and 
entertaining and widely 

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accessible. 
And he's been granted by studios

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like this Studio Capital to 
make, you know, the movies that 

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George Lucas is making for his 
career. 

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Steven Spielberg has made a 
Ridley Scott or James Cameron. 

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The only difference here is we 
usually do not see a male white 

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male dominated Hollywood studio 
system from CE OS to directors 

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and they're closed loop circles 
of like giving each other 

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opportunities give non white 
film makers this much capital. 

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So this is a huge moment for the
history of Hollywood and Ryan 

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Coogler is that he this isn't a 
big moment, maybe to him because

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he's done this already, right? 
Black Panther was a big deal. 

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Wakanda Forever was a big deal 
in many different ways, and so 

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is Creed. 
He's been here, he's been in the

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limelight, he's been stressed 
out probably for a decade, 

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having a lot of responsibility 
on his shoulders, and he's 

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always succeeded. 
What's really excited me for The

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Sinner's release is even though 
I think I feel conflicted about 

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this movie and, and you do too, 
but people are just going to the

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theater and they're happy. 
Like LeBron James is tweeting 

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out, like go see Sinners. 
Everyone seems to be loving it. 

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Critics to audiences. 
It's only Friday, like midday 

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right now, so we haven't gone 
into opening weekend yet, but 

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the returns in the box office 
are looking pretty positive for 

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the most, most part. 
So this is a a really big 

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moment. 
In Hollywood, Yeah. 

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Well, I mean, I think with like 
Black Panther and Creed, right, 

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I'm excited that audiences are 
going to to see like Ryan 

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Coogler's movies because they 
know him as a director. 

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Like I think even people who 
weren't invested in the whatever

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phase it was of Marvel from like
end game, you know, when it ends

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at end game, I would still say 
that people, I think like 

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general audiences still like 
went to see Black Panther, even 

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if they didn't see like all the 
niche, you know, maybe like Thor

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3. 
Was there a Thor 3 Ragnarok? 

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Yeah. 
Oh yeah, OK, sorry, I meant more

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like a Thor. 
To Doctor Strange. 

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Yeah, Like, you know what I 
mean? 

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But I feel like people want to 
see Black Panther and also, you 

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know, Black Panther has more 
interesting themes than most of 

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the Marvel movies that are more 
like moral dilemmas. 

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I mean, obviously there are some
interesting things going on with

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like, Iron Man's plot, and 
ultimately it's like still a 

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Marvel movie. 
So there's only so much you can 

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do within that kind of like 
blockbuster world. 

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But I would say like he, you 
know, added a lot of I I guess 

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just more like challenging 
themes to what you'd expect from

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a Marvel movie for broad 
audiences. 

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And then same with creator, 
right? 

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We talked about that a lot on 
the episode for Patreon. 

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But yeah, like I'm, I'm just 
pumped that people, even though 

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we didn't maybe love sinners as 
much as it seems like everyone 

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else does. 
I'm I'm just pumped that people 

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are like going to see an 
original movie. 

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And I'm also really excited that
it's kind of similar to how I 

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felt about Asteroid City 
actually, with like Wes 

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Anderson, like I am, you know, 
seated for any of Wes Anderson's

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movies or Ryan Coogler's movies.
But I, I didn't really like, 

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love Asteroid City like a lot of
people did. 

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I just liked it. 
But ultimately I was excited to 

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see what was going to unfold. 
Like I was excited to see 

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someone's vision. 
Exactly. 

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And that's really cool. 
And that that's similar for also

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like people and Ryan Coogler's 
cohort, like we talk about a 

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lot, right? 
Like in his generation of film 

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makers like Greta Gerwig, like a
Damien Chazelle, like an Ari 

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Astor, right. 
People who really didn't like 

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the swing of bow is afraid. 
Once Astor got capital. 

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I loved it. 
That was one of my favorite 

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episodes we've ever done. 
But but yeah, so like I I'm just

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excited to to basically 
experience something in theaters

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with a community who loves film 
and see like what someone wants 

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to do with an original story. 
Like sinners, Yes, investing in 

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original stories and unique 
cinematic visions in this auteur

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status that can be problematic 
sometimes, but also can really 

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help the industry in this case. 
If we're getting film makers, 

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especially from diverse 
perspectives that we have not 

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traditionally gotten. 
And in this industry to then 

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widen the audience of who is 
willing and to pay like 2025 

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bucks a ticket or whatever with 
parking or whatever it is, it's 

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become really costly to go to 
the movies. 

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I know Art Theatre just 
introduced a parking in the 

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parking lot and we're like what?
What is? 

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How dare they? 
And then we found out it was 

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like free for the first four 
hours, but we were like, what 

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about a double feature? 
We were going to double feature 

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something they didn't think 
about us the freaks. 

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But yeah, there's just great 
directors taking on ambitious 

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3rd or 4th projects, right? 
Greta Gerwig with Barbie, Jordan

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Peele with Nope, Barry Jenkins, 
I thought with an an interesting

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experiment with Mufasa, even 
though people didn't seem to 

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love that movie. 
Damian with Babylon obviously as

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a huge swing and Ari Astor if 
Beau is afraid and Robert Eggers

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doing a remake but making 
monsters cool again. 

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He would, I guess, successful 
at, right, with Nosferatu and 

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now Ryan Coogler, a lot of the 
directors in this cohort, among 

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others, and I'm missing probably
like the Safdies or Clojeau. 

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They are, you know, not just 
known for their thematic 

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ambition, but they're known for 
being able to blend commercial 

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appeal with social and emotional
depth. 

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They all sort of feel like they 
are living in a post Jurassic 

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Park world, and they're just 
trying to make something that 

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leans into that. 
Yeah, the commentary, the idea 

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of making spectacle, but also 
exploring what's the cost of 

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spectacle, right, while also 
trying to keep like the 

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Spielbergien aspects that feel 
rooted in character, rooted in 

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like human experiences. 
That's really hard to do. 

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Some of them are a little bit 
more allergic to that than 

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others, but they still want to 
do it like an Ari Astor, which 

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I'm really excited to see. 
Eddington. 

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The trailer looked really fun 
for coming out this July, I 

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think. 
But what's special about Coogler

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next to all those other 
directors is that he's just 

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worked on a another scale than 
all of them. 

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He's working on a Christopher 
Nolan scale. 

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He's working on a DVL and up 
scale, which is very strange 

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because I think he's 38 years 
old. 

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He's very young and he's 
incredibly successful already 

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and he's already kind of out 
grossed. 

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Maybe all of those directors 
combined if you remove Jordan 

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Peele, who I think is Gen. 
X, which is pretty wild to think

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about. 
Like actually that is insane. 

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If you look at Damian, Ari 
Eggers, Gerwig, even with Barbie

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and then Chazelle, I think all 
of Cougar's movies have out 

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grossed those films. 
Money only means so much, you 

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know, but in this case, trying 
to get butts and seats is a big 

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deal to keep this industry 
alive. 

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So he has become, you know, this
massive commodity to a lot of 

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the studios, which is 
interesting because Sinners is 

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sort of about that that 
relationship to this like 

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exploitative system. 
And and these these institutions

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who have been taking advantage 
of people are misrepresenting 

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different identities or 
different walks of life. 

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And and Michael B Jordan's 
characters and other characters 

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in this movie and centers sort 
of reckoning with that, with 

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this vampire metaphor. 
This is a really weird movie. 

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Yeah. 
I'm excited to talk. 

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About it also like when you hear
Ryan Coogler in interviews and I

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think also like a lot of people 
who you just mentioned, they 

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seem to also be like kind of 
reckoning with that too, right? 

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Like they're aware of like 
having to work within the system

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to maybe like also have a 
message that has been not 

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traditionally like told in 
Hollywood and not been like 

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allowed to to be told. 
So yeah, it's interesting. 

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Like. 
Barbie literally was like about 

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that where you have high 
schoolers telling Barbie like. 

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Oh yeah. 
You're a capitalist. 

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And she's like, I didn't build 
the railroad systems. 

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What did she say? 
I didn't invent commerce. 

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Or yeah, yeah, yeah. 
And then Damien Chazelle's 

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Babylon is about this idea as 
well. 

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And Jordan Peels Nope to stick 
on peel for a second. 

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Nope feels like the last great 
original film we had from an 

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auteur where we were like holy 
shit, how did he make this? 

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It feels like it feels like he 
wrote one of the most dense 

225
00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:40,840
screenplays of the decade that 
no one really cared about. 

226
00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:42,480
In fact, I feel like it came 
out. 

227
00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:45,040
It was also $100 million 
original feature. 

228
00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:47,160
It came out and everybody was 
like, well, it's kind of like 

229
00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:49,480
Jaws in the sky. 
It's pretty good, but it's a 

230
00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:50,920
little weird. 
I don't know what's up with like

231
00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:53,760
the Yeah and. 
I felt like general audiences 

232
00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:56,320
kind of turned against it. 
Yeah, And that was very strange.

233
00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:58,680
Now people look back and open 
was like, was that a masterpiece

234
00:11:58,680 --> 00:12:00,760
that we didn't treat seriously? 
Because it was like post 

235
00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:02,520
pandemic and everybody was a 
little bit depressed and was 

236
00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:04,080
like, I think so. 
I think that's what was going 

237
00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:08,880
on. 
So Sinners, this is a weird 

238
00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,880
movie. 
As I just said, it is a a bold 

239
00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:16,040
film. 
It is a genre blurring movie and

240
00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:17,960
it's already earning a lot of 
critical acclaim. 

241
00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:24,680
It is a chaotic $100 million 
vampire Western horror, 

242
00:12:24,680 --> 00:12:30,600
religious musical period piece, 
right? 

243
00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:35,480
But it's also deeply intentional
on how it tries to juggle those 

244
00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:39,840
tones and themes, and it finds 
something cinematic about that 

245
00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:41,840
mess. 
It finds something interesting 

246
00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:43,720
about those genres. 
I've been listening a lot to 

247
00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:45,840
Ryan Coogler the past few days 
on different podcasts and 

248
00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:48,840
interviews he's done. 
We were going to have him on the

249
00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:50,640
show, actually, but now he's 
just a vacation. 

250
00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,640
On vacation now because he's 
just like had done press for 

251
00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,000
weeks. 
Yeah, we asked too late. 

252
00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:57,720
We did, yeah. 
I've been busy and Kelsey's 

253
00:12:57,720 --> 00:12:59,800
doing finals week right now, so 
it's kind of insane. 

254
00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:05,480
But what I was going to say with
that is that listening to him is

255
00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:09,280
so insightful about Sinners. 
It makes me like the movie more 

256
00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:11,360
that I'm not sure that's fair to
the criticism of the film 

257
00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:13,880
because the flaw still exists. 
And I think a lot of people are 

258
00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:16,480
who love sinners are also 
attached to the idea that they 

259
00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:18,720
also just love Ryan Coogler. 
So they're going to love 

260
00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:21,000
anything he makes. 
And I do have that relationship 

261
00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:22,320
to him. 
So there's a strong bias, I 

262
00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:25,520
think, in the film community 
about Coogler because we're just

263
00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:27,880
also connected to him. 
He does feel like a Spielbergian

264
00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:30,720
person to a lot of our 
generation right now especially.

265
00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,920
But it is insane that he got 
this movie off the ground. 

266
00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:38,040
And he talked about like how he 
wanted to play in a lot of 

267
00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:43,520
different genres that have taken
advantage of black audiences and

268
00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:45,800
him wanting to reclaim genre in 
a lot of ways. 

269
00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:48,880
And I was thinking like, man, he
has spent a decade now doing 

270
00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:50,680
like massive reclamation 
projects. 

271
00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:54,800
He's used the Creed franchise to
reclaim sports and boxing and 

272
00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:59,880
the name of Creed. 
He's he's used Black Panther to 

273
00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:03,280
reclaim the superhero genre from
the way this that people who 

274
00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:06,120
have been marginalized 
historically are often used as 

275
00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,240
sort of like villainous 
characters in the superhero 

276
00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:12,200
genre and trying to do like an 
Afro futurist commentary with 

277
00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:15,320
Wakanda, which is fascinating. 
And now he's doing that here 

278
00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:19,000
with Sinners in like the Western
genre, the horror genre. 

279
00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,480
It's very inspired. 
And he's been very emotional in 

280
00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:24,400
this press run too. 
I've heard him cry a few times 

281
00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:29,640
on different podcasts, which is 
amazing to hear an artist feel 

282
00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:32,960
that felt about the project when
there's so much money at stake. 

283
00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:35,360
Usually people get desensitized 
when you hear them talking about

284
00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:39,320
their $100 million movies. 
But he really cares that people 

285
00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:43,400
go and see this fascinating 
experiment where he's blending 

286
00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:47,480
80s horror camp with this like 
Western world building with like

287
00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:50,960
this spiritual musical element 
running through the whole movie.

288
00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:53,920
He really, really cares about 
the subject and you feel that in

289
00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:56,440
Sinners. 
It's a very immersive and and I 

290
00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:59,080
loved being in the world. 
Yeah, and also like, it's just 

291
00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:04,240
nice as a side note, I guess 
like to hear someone who is a 

292
00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:08,440
man, like crying openly and just
being like a vulnerable, you 

293
00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:12,120
know, and not having it be in, 
you know, no shots. 

294
00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:16,920
And Andrew Garfield, like love 
you but but have it feel kind of

295
00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:19,680
performative, like I am 
vulnerable, man. 

296
00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:20,960
He gets a pass. 
He does. 

297
00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:23,840
Garfield gets a pass. 
His him and his sweaters did a 

298
00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:27,280
great press run. 
OK, but you know what I mean? 

299
00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,520
Like aside from his like 
beautiful Elmo kind of 

300
00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:32,920
interviews, not I'm not talking 
about that specifically, right, 

301
00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,920
Like the reason he took we live 
in time, but other interviews 

302
00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:37,840
that made me feel. 
Some of it felt worse, more like

303
00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:39,680
wasn't at the Oscars, where he 
was, like, talking about how 

304
00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:41,640
much his mom loved the person 
who was on stage. 

305
00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:43,160
And she was like, oh, thanks. 
Yeah. 

306
00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:45,280
He was like, yeah. 
But I mean, I guess just like 

307
00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:48,920
other things in general, like, 
but yeah, so I, I, I as a just a

308
00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:54,280
kind of aside, it's just, it's 
nice to to see like that openly,

309
00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,720
I think for, for other men too. 
No, I agree. 

310
00:15:57,720 --> 00:15:58,920
Maybe you learn something. 
It's. 

311
00:15:58,920 --> 00:15:59,680
Refreshing. 
Yeah. 

312
00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:04,960
Maybe we should. 
So with sinners, I, like we 

313
00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:06,800
already said, we feel 
complicated. 

314
00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:09,960
If you've listened to my 
reaction, then, listeners, you 

315
00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,880
already know Kelsey. 
Before we go further into the 

316
00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:17,440
plot, the narrative, I want to 
ask you how you're doing because

317
00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:20,080
you've now been forced in the 
past six months to talk about 

318
00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:21,600
vampire movies. 
That's true. 

319
00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:23,960
Yeah, that's true. 
And I know you do not like a 

320
00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:27,400
creature feature. 
I don't and you know, so long 

321
00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:31,800
time listeners know that I just 
like, don't like vampires. 

322
00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:35,480
You know, I and I don't, I 
didn't like it for Nosferatu. 

323
00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:38,520
That was a huge kind of like 
barrier for me to get over. 

324
00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:43,800
Ultimately, I ended up thinking 
Nosferatu is boring because it 

325
00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:47,360
didn't do anything with I'm I'm 
OK if a filmmaker does something

326
00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:49,960
interesting with the vampire IP,
right? 

327
00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:54,680
It has a very long history and 
the idea of like, you know, 

328
00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:59,920
vampire sucking someone's blood 
or kind of exploitation, you 

329
00:16:59,920 --> 00:17:05,440
know, messages that you could do
within that, like that, all is 

330
00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:08,240
fine. 
But still, vampires are boring 

331
00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:10,640
to me. 
I don't know exactly what it is.

332
00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:14,480
Maybe I'll pinpoint it later. 
Unless that vampire is 

333
00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:19,040
glistening in the sun in a 
forest and sprinting 200 mph. 

334
00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:20,640
Yeah. 
Stewart on their back. 

335
00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:24,599
There are moments of Twilight, 
but I Don't like you have more 

336
00:17:24,599 --> 00:17:26,880
of a nostalgic relationship to 
Twilight than I do, no. 

337
00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:30,600
It's just a masterpiece there's.
No, no, actually it's just a 

338
00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:32,600
five star movie. 
No movie has ever explained 

339
00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,000
seasonal depression than 
Twilight. 

340
00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,520
I think also there's like some 
Robert Pattinson, Kristen 

341
00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:41,280
Stewart. 
You know I love with both of 

342
00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:44,040
them. 
History that yeah, so there are,

343
00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:46,960
you know, pieces. 
But even then, like I'm bored by

344
00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:51,880
the vampire aspects of Twilight 
and that is also something 

345
00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:56,280
that's a part of Sinners. 
Like I am bored about from the 

346
00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:58,920
vampire of it all. 
And there are some more 

347
00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,600
interesting things that I will 
talk about today that I do think

348
00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:03,560
Coogler is doing with the 
vampire lore. 

349
00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:10,400
But ultimately I think it stays 
like within the like camp 

350
00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:16,000
elements a lot and like 
ultimately doesn't tonally shake

351
00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:22,320
out enough for me to be like, Oh
yeah, I really loved this movie.

352
00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:23,640
Right. 
Like I liked it. 

353
00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,360
But and the vampire thing is 
already something that I have to

354
00:18:26,360 --> 00:18:29,240
like a hurdle. 
For me, it's really any like 

355
00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:31,400
creature feature. 
Like people are like, well, 

356
00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:33,880
people might be listening to 
this and being like, well, 

357
00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:36,440
Kelsey, don't you like the 
thing? 

358
00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:40,120
I like the conversations with 
the people in rooms for the 

359
00:18:40,120 --> 00:18:42,920
thing, but I don't really like 
the creature feature part of it.

360
00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:47,160
I get bored by it. 
I understand, I understand John 

361
00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:50,120
Carpenter's like, you know, 
whatever, like it's technical 

362
00:18:50,120 --> 00:18:51,680
aspects, blah blah blah with 
the. 

363
00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:52,720
You don't have to defend 
yourself. 

364
00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:53,800
That's me. 
I'm. 

365
00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:55,240
I think it's a masterpiece. 
It's one. 

366
00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:57,440
Of my favorites, I also get 
bored by the Mummy do. 

367
00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:00,680
You can't even do comedy. 
Do I love adventure comedies? 

368
00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:03,840
Who? 
Brendan Fraser, Not Brendan 

369
00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:05,600
Fraser. 
Rachel Vice. 

370
00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:07,080
Do I love Rachel Vice? 
We all do. 

371
00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:10,520
Yes. 
OK, but and and Brendan Fraser 

372
00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:13,080
in in that movie or Fraser. 
I apologize. 

373
00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:16,880
Yeah, Sorry, but I'm bored by 
the mummy aspects. 

374
00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:19,960
I don't know what it is about 
the creature of it all. 

375
00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:23,640
I don't like ghosts. 
It's not because I'm like afraid

376
00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:25,360
at all. 
I it's actually like the 

377
00:19:25,360 --> 00:19:27,520
opposite. 
I just genuinely get bored. 

378
00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:29,960
I don't know what. 
Yeah, I mean, maybe someone 

379
00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:31,760
listeners. 
Maybe This is why it's actually 

380
00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:34,680
maybe good to have a podcast 
because I was going to say like,

381
00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:36,160
is there any creature that I 
like? 

382
00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:39,680
Can I like break this at all? 
Maybe someone can comment if 

383
00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:41,480
you're like. 
I know Kelsey has talked about a

384
00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,200
creature she's liked. 
I think it's because you treat 

385
00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,600
real violence so seriously, like
you're, you're so terrified by 

386
00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:49,840
like serial killer movies and 
stuff like that and you love 

387
00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:51,320
that genre for that reason. 
And me too. 

388
00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:54,440
But I think the supernatural 
stuff it just doesn't work with.

389
00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:56,840
I don't. 
Know OK aliens I would say. 

390
00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:00,400
I would say I like the alien 
creature feature, but that also 

391
00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:04,680
has to do a lot with me really. 
Being interested when film 

392
00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:08,800
makers are exploring, like, 
religion and capitalism in space

393
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,040
is usually within like, the 
Alien franchise. 

394
00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:12,920
So that's where I live. 
That's also a part of it. 

395
00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:15,360
Like, yeah, yeah. 
So. 

396
00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:18,160
No, I hear you. 
I mean, this is also like not 

397
00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:22,440
exactly the most. 
I don't know, how do I put this?

398
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:26,280
It does a lot of new things with
the vampire mythos. 

399
00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:28,520
It's a new iteration on 
vampires, which I'm really 

400
00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:30,280
excited to talk about when we 
get into the story. 

401
00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:34,160
But this movie is also very 
operatic. 

402
00:20:34,360 --> 00:20:38,000
It is very borderline cheese 
ball, it is. 

403
00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:42,240
There's a fire tornado. 
Yeah, there is very maximalist, 

404
00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,240
but all that is going to land in
an entertaining and fun way 

405
00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:48,280
because the movie doesn't treat 
itself that seriously, which is 

406
00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:51,520
nice. 
But also it does kind of jump 

407
00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:57,160
between these big tones of 
seriousness, of campness, of 

408
00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:00,640
absurdity or elevated premise to
the point where you're kind of 

409
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,320
like when we get to the end and 
it goes back to Sirius, it 

410
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,040
doesn't. 
If it doesn't feel cohesive to 

411
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,040
some people, I think that's 
fair. 

412
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:10,760
Like for us, I don't think it 
feels cohesive. 

413
00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:14,120
And so therefore, because it 
feels like a really ambitious 

414
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,840
swing of ideas and tones and 
genres. 

415
00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,200
And I really appreciate what 
Coogler's doing with the world 

416
00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,360
building and the original 
storytelling and then trying to 

417
00:21:23,360 --> 00:21:26,720
reclaim these genres and reshape
the archetypes and, and claim 

418
00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:29,040
back different tropes, but also 
leave certain tropes in there 

419
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:30,200
which might be more 
questionable. 

420
00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:32,000
I think that's all really 
ambitious. 

421
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:33,960
But then by the end of the 
movie, I'm feeling a little bit 

422
00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,560
flat because there's just too 
much that happened. 

423
00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:40,880
I felt overwhelmed and there 
were great highs like there's a,

424
00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:43,000
and again we're in spoiler 
territory. 

425
00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:46,320
There's a musical sequence in 
this movie that breaks the whole

426
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,040
movies logic, the film logic, 
which is amazing and very 

427
00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,160
surreal. 
And I had a roller coaster of 

428
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:54,040
emotions while watching it, 
which I know it's just something

429
00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:55,800
people say, but I really did 
feel that way. 

430
00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,000
And by the end of it I was like,
no, that was awesome. 

431
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,120
I'm glad that I was here opening
night on this Wednesday seeing 

432
00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:05,480
this movie, but it does feel 
like a film kind of daring you 

433
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,280
to keep up with itself. 
And then by the end, I felt like

434
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,600
I was really missing something 
to hold onto. 

435
00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:13,520
And I felt like it was just a 
little bit too jumbled include 

436
00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:16,480
like ideas to tone to character 
arcs. 

437
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:18,320
So. 
I felt that way too. 

438
00:22:18,360 --> 00:22:21,240
I mean, that's ultimately like 
why it didn't totally work for 

439
00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,640
me, even though I I had a really
good time and a lot of parts of 

440
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,560
it. 
Yeah, it was mostly like I, I 

441
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:29,400
really liked the setup of the 
movie. 

442
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:34,680
Like I think in our most 
anticipated movie episode, which

443
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:37,440
is like, so fun to record. 
This year's going to be awesome.

444
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:42,880
But I talked about how number 
one, I like, I'm excited for 

445
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:47,720
Ryan Coogler's movie and I'm 
seated, but I am nervous about 

446
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:51,720
the vampire aspect and then also
the idea of like CGI twins. 

447
00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:54,120
Which? 
Is something that like actually 

448
00:22:54,120 --> 00:22:56,840
didn't work for me that much in 
Mickey 17, even though it's a 

449
00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:02,040
part of the plot of him being 
like a double and it's a part of

450
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,280
also like the thematic right 
message of that movie. 

451
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:09,800
But here I'm surprised to say it
actually did not bother me at 

452
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:11,400
all. 
I actually liked it a lot. 

453
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,360
I loved Michael B Jordan's 
performances as both the twins 

454
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,040
and. 
Yeah, So that like, seeing 

455
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:23,240
Michael B Jordan's characters at
the beginning of this movie 

456
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,040
actually really worked for me. 
The kind of setup of the world, 

457
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:31,680
this kind of mystery around like
what are they doing? 

458
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,640
Like who are they close with? 
Right. 

459
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:38,760
There was like a lot of like 
kind of tension build up at the 

460
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,880
very beginning that I thought 
like Hoogler did really well, 

461
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,160
especially even when we have 
like the introduction to the 

462
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:48,120
vampires. 
I thought that was all set up 

463
00:23:48,120 --> 00:23:49,520
really well. 
I was like, oh, what's going to 

464
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:52,400
happen? 
Like who is this guy when he's 

465
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:57,240
standing outside of the like the
the. 

466
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,400
The Juke Club. 
Yeah, the club I was like, oh 

467
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,440
OK, like this what's like, I was
in right at that point. 

468
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:11,200
But then once we got into the 
actual vampire part, that's 

469
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:16,640
where I kind of was out. 
Like once everyone got bit, I 

470
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,880
started to lose steam because I 
felt like the tension kind of 

471
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:25,400
stopped building as much. 
And I know that was purposeful 

472
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:29,280
in terms of like having 
conversations about like should 

473
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,800
I save my brother? 
Like what is the vampire 

474
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,400
represent essentially right, Who
is getting bit also. 

475
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,960
But it was it. 
It wasn't balancing like the 

476
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,560
interesting parts of it with the
can't be parts of it for me 

477
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,280
enough where I just kind of 
felt. 

478
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:48,800
I think flat is a good word too 
by by the end of it. 

479
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:50,680
Yeah. 
Do you think regular audiences 

480
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,240
are going to walk in, be 
entertained in moments and then 

481
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:54,960
walk out and think, what did I 
just watch? 

482
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:57,440
But in a good way? 
Or do you think people are going

483
00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,200
to be like, this is a 
masterpiece or are they going to

484
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,360
be allergic to the film 
subverting genre in this way or 

485
00:25:02,360 --> 00:25:05,200
or twisting genre in this way? 
Like how do you think audiences 

486
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,400
are going to react this weekend?
Like I assume it's going to make

487
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,840
a lot of money because there's 
so much like press going on with

488
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,920
the film and critics. 
Literally like all critics 

489
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,680
except for our podcast, I guess.
Or like this is, this is like a 

490
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:18,160
four and a half, five star 
movie, right? 

491
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,960
So do you think normal 
moviegoers are going to be OK 

492
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,960
with this movie? 
It depends on whether they like 

493
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,600
campy horror movies. 
I think that's really the thing.

494
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:34,920
Like I think some people will 
really enjoy it for the the 

495
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:40,480
pulpy aspects of it that I also,
I think that's like something 

496
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,400
else to, to, to say like I, I 
don't enjoy those parts of like 

497
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,920
Tarantino movies, right? 
Like those are just things that 

498
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,920
I don't really, I don't know. 
I'm, I'm like, not as as excited

499
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,840
by by that like. 
What about the like melodrama? 

500
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,160
The humor like do. 
You think, OK, this movie, I 

501
00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:58,960
think the humor like will really
land. 

502
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,000
Yeah, I thought that was like a 
really big strength of the movie

503
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:07,120
was the were the like funny like
inserts of it. 

504
00:26:07,120 --> 00:26:08,920
The character building was 
really good. 

505
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,320
But I I'm so interested to see 
you like what general audiences 

506
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:17,280
think, because I think it will 
be kind of split like if you're 

507
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:23,600
not into vampire horror, kind of
silly, but still has like a 

508
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:27,880
message. 
I'm not I'm not sure. 

509
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:29,600
Like what do you think? 
I. 

510
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:30,640
Think people are going to love 
it? 

511
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,120
I think it's not pretentious and
I think when you watch Nope and 

512
00:26:34,120 --> 00:26:36,720
you're a normal movie goer, it 
feels too dense. 

513
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:38,240
It feels like there's too much 
going on. 

514
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,800
The different storylines don't 
feel like they're connecting, 

515
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,240
and you have to watch it 3 or 4 
times to really appreciate it in

516
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,680
terms of what it's doing. 
And used to be a real film buff 

517
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:49,800
too, and to a certain degree to 
like really see through what 

518
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,800
Peele was trying to do there. 
And it's like such a historical 

519
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,400
text in many ways that's so 
layered. 

520
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:57,520
And then I'm only comparing 
these two movies, not just 

521
00:26:57,520 --> 00:26:59,240
because they're black film 
makers, obviously. 

522
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,280
And and Jordan Peele and Ryan 
Coogler are playing in a similar

523
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:02,840
genre, which is like funny 
horror. 

524
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,600
But it's also because the 
commentaries are pretty similar 

525
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,160
about inequality in the history 
of it and the history of culture

526
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,800
and who gets to claim culture 
and who co-ops it and 

527
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:14,720
assimilation. 
And so there's just a lot of 

528
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,360
similar ideas, which isn't 
surprising because Jordan 

529
00:27:18,360 --> 00:27:20,160
Peele's been up to that for 
three Movies Now. 

530
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:22,560
His fourth movie is coming out 
apparently next year, which is 

531
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,080
really exciting. 
But I think people are going to 

532
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:27,560
be like, oh, no, this was really
entertaining. 

533
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:31,960
And I saw two hot Michael B 
Jordans fight vampires at the 

534
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,360
end of this film and kill a 
bunch of Nazis. 

535
00:27:34,360 --> 00:27:36,400
Yeah, I guess that's true. 
OK, OK, Klux Klan. 

536
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:37,840
Members, but I'm called them 
Nazis, sorry. 

537
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,800
Yeah. 
Well, I think that, yeah, I 

538
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,520
think that it will be 
interesting to see like, though,

539
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,760
if people are leaving this movie
like with a message or if 

540
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,040
they're able to just like escape
it, if that makes sense, in 

541
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,480
terms of like, oh, that was a 
fun, campy horror movie. 

542
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:54,760
Because I would hope that they 
would get the messages that I 

543
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:58,960
think are interesting in this 
movie that Coogler is is 

544
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,240
interested in. 
I was thinking about actually 

545
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,520
like us. 
Like I now that you're just 

546
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:08,800
talking about Peel, I actually 
liked us because it was so 

547
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:16,520
elevated, but in service of the 
the really like in depth message

548
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,680
where people couldn't get over 
like certain parts of the the 

549
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:24,000
kind of elevation of that, but. 
Even the movie to have a logic, 

550
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:25,320
yeah. 
It was like, and so like, I 

551
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,720
guess that's just how I I feel 
about vampires. 

552
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:33,960
Like I guess that's just, I 
can't, I don't know, I'm the the

553
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,240
fire tornado. 
They were like aspects of it 

554
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:40,320
that just really took me out. 
But yeah, I think I hope people 

555
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,880
will will like it because 
ultimately, like, I want, you 

556
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:47,120
know, Coogler to kind of like 
keep growing and I'm excited to 

557
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,440
see what he has to do next. 
Well, I'm like I said at the 

558
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,120
top, I'm conflicted. 
I am in a strange place right 

559
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,000
now reading a bunch of reviews 
from critics I really admire who

560
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,840
I it was a where I was expecting
some of these critics to be a 

561
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:01,640
little bit more open minded 
about their criticism and like 

562
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,080
giving a more thorough breakdown
of this movie. 

563
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,760
But frankly, something's really 
surprised me, but in a good way,

564
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:08,600
because I think everybody's 
rallying around Coogler right 

565
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:10,840
now. 
A lot of the criticism about 

566
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,320
sinners is just saying 
essentially, it's really cool 

567
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,520
how bold this movie was. 
It's really awesome that it was 

568
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:19,360
made. 
I'm really happy for Ryan 

569
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,560
Coogler. 
I can't believe this got funded 

570
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:28,600
and it is so musically powerful.
It's thematically layered, but 

571
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,040
everything is on the surface 
enough for everybody to really 

572
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,240
pick it up. 
And so there isn't a lot of 

573
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:34,600
subtext. 
It's all really text. 

574
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:36,000
But the text is really 
interesting. 

575
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,560
And the environment speaks to 
that too, with Jim Crow era. 

576
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:42,080
And then also the vampires being
a little bit twisted here in 

577
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,480
terms of using them as a 
metaphor with this like Faustian

578
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:46,840
bargain in terms of like what 
these characters are willing to 

579
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:48,920
sacrifice for stability and what
that means. 

580
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,120
And do they even have a choice? 
And we can talk about all that. 

581
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:54,240
And so there's a lot to in this 
movie to love. 

582
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,600
I just, again, I think there are
a lot of critics. 

583
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,960
Maybe not taking the time, in my
opinion, to talk about how the 

584
00:29:59,960 --> 00:30:04,040
film is intentionally messy and 
like in its mess, I think it 

585
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,960
actually becomes a really 
cinematic and fun and and 

586
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,920
unpredictable. 
And for me, I still felt by the 

587
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,320
end that it was so oddly shaped.
I can never hold on to anything,

588
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:15,840
right? 
And like I already said, I was 

589
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,840
just overwhelmed by the the so 
much stuff going on. 

590
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:20,880
It's a lot, right? 
Yeah, it's similar to like how 

591
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,360
we saw kind of criticisms of 
like Babylon or Bow is Afraid, 

592
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:28,000
right, From really big swings 
that people have talked about, 

593
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,920
like I can't believe this got 
funded and I don't want people 

594
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,360
to RIP, you know, this apart in 
any way. 

595
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,160
Like Babylon or Bow Is Afraid 
was because I actually love 

596
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:41,000
those movies. 
But and also I don't think 

597
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:43,320
Sinners deserves to be like 
ripped apart in any way. 

598
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,360
But yeah, but I would be 
interested to see more. 

599
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,720
So like like there were certain 
aspects of this in terms of the 

600
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:52,600
the tones that I would just be 
interested to see like what 

601
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:56,200
people also think about. 
And there's underdeveloped 

602
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:57,800
character arcs. 
Like I think there's other 

603
00:30:57,800 --> 00:30:59,800
characters in the periphery of 
this movie that we didn't spend 

604
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:01,960
a lot of time with. 
Everybody is purposely an 

605
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,120
archetype and so because of it, 
them being archetypes that 

606
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,680
Coogler knows the audience is 
well aware of, then he has 

607
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,240
tropes and then for some of 
those tropes, he reclaims them. 

608
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,080
Especially for the like the 
black male characters in this 

609
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:13,800
movie. 
That was really interesting and 

610
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,480
like, I think super cool of 
Coogler to do that. 

611
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,320
Like that's a hard thing to do. 
But also there were other tropes

612
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,960
that he kind of left sitting 
there that then became 

613
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,200
problematic and questionable 
that I was confused about why he

614
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,160
did those things. 
There are a lot of parts of this

615
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,080
movie that I think are that have
holes or flaws that are just not

616
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,640
been explored yet. 
And I guess I'm just bringing 

617
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,720
this up because it feels very 
strange, But I'm I'm down for 

618
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,120
all of us just to be like, let's
go to the theatre. 

619
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:40,200
Let's eventize this. 
Let's make it a Barbie 

620
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,080
Oppenheimer moment. 
And like, let's get this movie 

621
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,680
up to 200 three $100 million. 
Let's GameStop this film. 

622
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:46,880
Like I'm into that but it just 
feels like a weird moment. 

623
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:51,000
Yeah, I just feel like 
especially with the characters 

624
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,920
who are women in this this 
movie, that's maybe also 

625
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:56,480
something that kept me at a 
distance. 

626
00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,560
Like I understood what he was 
doing specifically with Hailee 

627
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:04,080
Steinfeld's character of like 
this white passing woman being 

628
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:09,480
unaware, right? 
Of like of what she basically 

629
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,560
like how she's like almost 
causing danger, right. 

630
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:17,800
And so I like that's not my my 
issue with in terms of like the 

631
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:26,000
writing of her character or like
there were some specific like 

632
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,640
moments. 
Where is it, Annie? 

633
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:30,560
Yeah, Annie's the character Wumi
Masaku. 

634
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,920
Yeah. 
Yeah, like, she has a lot to do,

635
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:38,080
but at the same time, like, her 
characterization feels really 

636
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,560
limited. 
It feels like a lot of the women

637
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:46,120
are like they're and, and most 
of their dialogue is there for 

638
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:50,040
like sexual purposes. 
And that felt just like really, 

639
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,680
it felt like the character, OK, 
this is how I felt like the 

640
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,760
women in this movie and the way 
that they were like underwritten

641
00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:58,600
felt like they were in a 2000s 
movie. 

642
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:00,240
And I think that put me at a 
distance. 

643
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:04,040
Like especially the first line 
that Hailee Steinfeld has to say

644
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:07,200
to Michael B Jordan. 
I was like, come on. 

645
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:14,240
And then also like later on when
the when the vampire bites, I'm 

646
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,960
forgetting the character's name 
but the store owner. 

647
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,480
Yeah, Lee Jung Lee's character. 
Yeah, Who's also in Babylon, 

648
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:22,320
right? 
Yeah. 

649
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,800
And she's awesome. 
But all the performances were 

650
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,360
great. 
But I think, like, even what he 

651
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:32,040
said to her, like now I know all
these facts about you and I even

652
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:33,600
know this, like sexual fact 
about you. 

653
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:38,800
It's just like everything felt 
so cringy in terms of the the 

654
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,280
writing about sex and the way 
that the women were positioned 

655
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:44,640
in this story that that also 
kind of put me at a distance 

656
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,520
because I already wasn't in on 
the like camp vibes as much. 

657
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:50,600
I did like the flame tornado, 
even though I've been joking 

658
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:51,760
about it. 
I thought that was fun. 

659
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,680
And I and I also really liked 
whenever a vampire showed up, we

660
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:59,120
got this like metal guitar 
music. 

661
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:04,680
Like I thought it was so fun. 
Or like, we cut, you know, it 

662
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,320
literally did a cut to a full 
moon once we find out he's a 

663
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:09,639
vampire. 
And it's like, you know, like 

664
00:34:09,639 --> 00:34:14,159
that shit's fun. 
And like Delroy Lindo, who is 

665
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,199
amazing in this movie. 
And. 

666
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,400
I think Spoiler Alert is going 
to deserve my extra credit 

667
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:25,199
because besides Michael B Jordan
playing Twins, I think his humor

668
00:34:25,199 --> 00:34:30,320
and his also like the the depths
of like the tragedy he's able to

669
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:33,280
express in his conversation in 
the car. 

670
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:35,239
Like it just such a good 
performance. 

671
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:40,440
But the comedy and humor that 
Coogler writes like with him and

672
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,239
how he's able to perform that, 
like, that's also a really big 

673
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,920
plus. 
But yeah, like I think just the 

674
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,280
the women, right, felt 
underwritten. 

675
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,199
That put me at a distance. 
And then the tonal shift that 

676
00:34:52,199 --> 00:34:53,280
we've kind of been talking 
about. 

677
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:56,880
But maybe I'll give an example 
of where I was. 

678
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:01,120
I was just kind of felt like 
back and forth a lot in terms of

679
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:05,720
tones was like, I loved all the 
build up of following the twins,

680
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:08,880
right? 
Like shooting someone in the 

681
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,760
leg, just being like, well, 
sorry, like I just can't have 

682
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:15,040
someone telling anyone that they
stole from me. 

683
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,680
That was all really fun. 
But then once we get into the 

684
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:23,160
actual club, there were moments 
where I was like, OK, I, I like 

685
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,400
how we're in the club and then 
like we're focusing on Sammy and

686
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:28,480
we're we're building up to his 
performance. 

687
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:35,320
But there were moments in the in
that space where like we go to 

688
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:39,840
side rooms or side conversations
like that felt like if you've 

689
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,880
ever seen a play live, which I 
guess I've really only seen like

690
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:47,600
non professional or I don't know
if they're like student 

691
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:52,040
productions in college. 
But this is what it reminded me 

692
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:55,120
of in terms of like everyone. 
There's like a, a kind of like 

693
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:57,200
party scene or something like 
that, right? 

694
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:00,760
And then it's like you have a 
conversation to the side or two 

695
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,200
characters go in the spotlight 
goes to them. 

696
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:07,120
And then it's like everyone's 
like silently dancing on the 

697
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:08,480
stage. 
Does that make sense? 

698
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:12,120
And then we hear they're like to
the side conversation on stage. 

699
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:15,000
That's what it felt like. 
Like the, I don't know if it was

700
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,240
the sound mixing in that moment,
but I didn't feel like I was 

701
00:36:17,240 --> 00:36:21,160
still at a club. 
I was like, wait, this, this is 

702
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,480
like a very open space. 
I feel like I'd hear, you know, 

703
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:26,200
a lot of like noise in the 
background. 

704
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,040
And like that was also taking me
out of it because it felt like I

705
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:33,840
was really jumping from 
different spaces that were in 

706
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,640
the same space. 
So I wasn't able to like I just 

707
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:40,600
felt like the atmosphere wasn't 
being created seamlessly like in

708
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:44,360
that that one space. 
So that kind of like took me 

709
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:46,560
out, even though I thought the 
conversations were interesting, 

710
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:49,840
but that that's kind of an 
example of the tonal thing that 

711
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:53,160
I'm talking about. 
I loved the whole like what's 

712
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:54,560
happening with the vampire, 
right? 

713
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:56,240
That threat of tension was 
great. 

714
00:36:56,720 --> 00:37:02,040
Once we get to the planning to 
like kill the vampire, that's 

715
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:06,080
also interesting. 
But then I was like sad because 

716
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:12,720
once once the the store owner 
sorry I need to just have the 

717
00:37:12,720 --> 00:37:15,920
cast open on my phone. 
There's Grace. 

718
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:20,760
But once we have grace say like 
come in, come in, everyone to 

719
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:25,280
the vampires, it happened so 
quick like and I agree, I didn't

720
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:29,320
get to really enjoy like the the
fight sequences. 

721
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:31,320
I don't know. 
We spent too much time like 

722
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:33,480
eating garlic trying to. 
See who's a vampire? 

723
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,480
Yeah. 
So, yeah, so I I just felt like 

724
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:38,840
the payoff wasn't there. 
I felt like the payoff was there

725
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:42,280
in the very last scene where we 
see like everyone get shot right

726
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:44,200
the. 
KKK guys, Yeah. 

727
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:48,960
I mean, that was exactly. 
Yeah, so, but I felt like it we 

728
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,520
just felt we spent a long time 
building up to the vampires, 

729
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:54,720
like trying to get in. 
And then once they finally did 

730
00:37:54,720 --> 00:37:58,800
get in, while it was really like
wild, right to see this whole 

731
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:02,360
fight sequence and like the 
grace character burns alive to 

732
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:06,840
like essentially save her kid, 
right to and kill her husband, 

733
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,840
which is like tragic. 
And then we have the whole 

734
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:13,600
sequence of of possibly having 
to like kill his brother and 

735
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:16,760
then also the like big bad Irish
dude. 

736
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:19,920
But I don't know. 
It just felt, it felt like I 

737
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:24,360
that was like too short lived or
and like wasn't focused on the 

738
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:30,360
the theme totally at that point.
Because then we get to the the 

739
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:35,840
end point in the water and I'm, 
I'm a little distracted by the 

740
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:39,320
way that it's cut in terms of 
like Michael B Jordan shaking, 

741
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:43,200
watching what he can't believe 
is like happening before his 

742
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,760
eyes while still trying to save 
Sammy of the the vampire. 

743
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,800
I think once he sees sunlight, 
right, he like burns into the 

744
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,800
the flame tornado, which is like
maybe fifth time I've said flame

745
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:56,760
tornado. 
But but like that was really 

746
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:58,000
fun. 
But the way it was cut, I was 

747
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,040
like, I know I'm watching 
Michael B Jordan look at 

748
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:01,560
something that's fake, if that 
makes sense. 

749
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:03,360
Like I was, I don't, I don't 
know. 

750
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:06,720
So there just moments like that 
that I just wasn't fully on 

751
00:39:06,720 --> 00:39:09,760
board at all moments. 
There was some artifice that 

752
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,120
distanced you and some artifice 
that pulled you in. 

753
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:13,160
Yes. 
Yeah. 

754
00:39:13,240 --> 00:39:14,640
And that's exactly how I felt. 
Like. 

755
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:16,240
I think we had a very similar 
experience. 

756
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:18,800
I think, you know, we can get 
into the narrative a little bit 

757
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,040
more beat by beat here because I
want to ask you if you like the 

758
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:23,320
first act versus second act in 
particular, because the first 

759
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,160
act is really this Western 
character building, assembling 

760
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:29,680
the Ocean's 11 team, the musical
group, and the second act is the

761
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,400
introduction to the vampires. 
And that changes the whole tone 

762
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:36,560
of the movie. 
But before I do, just to cap our

763
00:39:36,720 --> 00:39:42,080
conversation about how this 
movie has issues and why we can 

764
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:46,280
reconcile the fact that it's 
important to acknowledge the 

765
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:49,000
importance of original 
storytelling in Hollywood right 

766
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,480
now because there's so much IP 
slop out there. 

767
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:54,840
Just copy and paste BS that were
forced to watch a movie theaters

768
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:58,680
that studios clearly want to 
eventually send us to our 

769
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:02,000
couches so they can force us to 
pay movie theater money. 

770
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:04,200
If you watch streaming movies 
like that is definitely 

771
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:05,680
something that they're they're 
planning on. 

772
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:08,400
It feels like they're close. 
And so it's really important for

773
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,400
all of us to go see Sinners. 
And so I do want all of our 

774
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:13,040
listeners who are still 
listening, who have not seen 

775
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:15,440
this film to check it out. 
If you've already seen it, we're

776
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:16,360
going to go see it a second 
time. 

777
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,840
So I I recommend people go see 
this multiple times just to get 

778
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:22,280
to tell studios. 
Not only do we want new 

779
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:26,040
storytellers getting capital to 
tell big movies like this with a

780
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:29,360
large scale, but we also want 
original movies. 

781
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:35,160
We want that please, like take 
our money and let's do this and 

782
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,160
and don't fuck with us. 
Like let us have this. 

783
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,720
My only issue with the whole the
criticism, the lack of criticism

784
00:40:40,720 --> 00:40:43,960
of this movie in the kind of non
critical reaction is that where 

785
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:48,280
was all this for the woman king?
Where was all this for Nope? 

786
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:50,760
Where was all this for Judas and
the Black Messiah? 

787
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:54,760
Like I, I guess I'm kind of 
missing that where those movies 

788
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:56,920
came out and I was like, these 
are some of the great movies of 

789
00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:59,680
the year, some of the most 
important films that we've seen 

790
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:03,480
in this decade, in the twenty 
20s that are being torn apart as

791
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:06,120
if the greatest film makers 
alive who've had decades of 

792
00:41:06,240 --> 00:41:07,880
making movies had made them. 
Yeah. 

793
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:09,960
Like The Woman King had more 
essays about why that was 

794
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:14,800
problematic and questionable 
than I'd seen from any any movie

795
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:17,720
in a long time. 
And that's a really complicated 

796
00:41:17,720 --> 00:41:19,360
conversation. 
We had that one and we had on 

797
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:21,240
people from the movie and talked
about that one quite a bit. 

798
00:41:21,240 --> 00:41:24,360
But Judas and the Black Messiah,
people didn't even see that. 

799
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:26,400
You know, that was a little bit 
of a pandemic issue, but still 

800
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,080
nonetheless. 
Nope, we already mentioned, but 

801
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:31,840
like there are movies and I'm 
sticking with like black made 

802
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:35,400
films in this case. 
But like, it's just it's a 

803
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,800
little bit disappointing to me 
that the that the there wasn't a

804
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:42,280
huge crowd and A and a kind of 
like monoculture around those 

805
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:45,040
movies. 
And for this one, I'm glad that 

806
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,280
it exists. 
I just feel it feels kind of 

807
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:50,760
almost condescending to Ryan 
Coogler to not have some more 

808
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:53,920
deeper conversations about what 
really didn't work in this movie

809
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:56,320
since we all acknowledge that 
it's so special that it exists 

810
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:57,240
in the 1st place. 
Right. 

811
00:41:57,480 --> 00:41:59,440
Yeah. 
So that's kind of my energy 

812
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:01,160
going into this deeper 
conversation. 

813
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:05,040
So Act one versus Act 2. 
What do you did you like the 

814
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:06,800
western of it all? 
You've talked about the town a 

815
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:10,720
couple times, like Michael B 
Jordan and his brother meeting 

816
00:42:10,720 --> 00:42:13,400
up and then parting ways, 
eventually getting Sammy on 

817
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:18,040
board and then following which 
who are let's let's establish 

818
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:21,440
our brother's name so Michael B 
Jordan plays Smoke and Stack. 

819
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,120
And who's the twin who wears the
Red Hat? 

820
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:26,640
That's Smoke. 
Wait, no, that's Stack. 

821
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:30,360
Stack is the one who's a little 
bit more volatile, who you think

822
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:33,200
is going to be the more like 
Robert De Niro, like this is 

823
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:35,320
Goodfellas. 
And actually that's probably 

824
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:38,440
more Smoke who's like literally 
like shooting guys in the street

825
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:42,120
being like don't mess with me. 
And so they have an interesting 

826
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,200
dynamic that is kind of 
subverted by the end of the film

827
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:46,680
where Smoke is actually the guy 
who's a little bit more 

828
00:42:47,720 --> 00:42:50,840
reactionary, I think. 
And Stack is actually just kind 

829
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:53,320
of what seems to be has been the
almost. 

830
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:55,120
They treat him like he's the 
younger brother, even though 

831
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:57,560
they're twins, which is 
fascinating because it seems 

832
00:42:57,560 --> 00:42:59,800
like Smoke really took care of 
his brother when their dad was 

833
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:01,640
abusive. 
And they kind of get into that 

834
00:43:01,720 --> 00:43:03,080
that. 
Back well, if anyone's ever been

835
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:06,360
friends with like twins or 
triplets or like, you know, 

836
00:43:06,720 --> 00:43:09,240
there's always a conversation 
about like someone being 

837
00:43:09,240 --> 00:43:13,000
younger, which is funny, but. 
But yeah, they got that across. 

838
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:14,480
So we get introduced to the 
team. 

839
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:17,120
We have Michael B Jordan's 
smoking stack, We've Hailee 

840
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:20,400
Steinfeld's Mary. 
We have Miles Katon's Sammy. 

841
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:26,680
We have Juanie Misaku's Annie. 
We have Jamie Lawson's character

842
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:30,320
who is the person that Miles 
Caton's characters into Sammy's 

843
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:34,880
into who has a partner I think. 
And then Delroy Lindo's Delta 

844
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:38,720
Slim, Omar Benson Miller's 
Cornbread, Lee Jung Lee's Grace 

845
00:43:38,720 --> 00:43:41,000
Chow. 
And then Yao is her partner 

846
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:42,520
beau. 
And I think there's some other 

847
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:45,320
characters like some KKK 
characters too. 

848
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:47,880
And then the the big villain who
will get to in the second act, 

849
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:51,520
which is Jack, Jack O'connell's 
Remic, who is the the Irish 

850
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:53,200
vampire who maybe has been 
around for. 

851
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:56,200
He's there for a quality and 
music. 

852
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:58,320
Yeah, apparently we're going to 
get into that. 

853
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:00,560
So what did you like more? 
Did you like the act on the 

854
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:05,080
building this huge, you know, 
set up before this terrifying 

855
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:08,760
nightmare of, of a, of a night 
at this, at this place with the 

856
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:09,720
vampires? 
Like which? 

857
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:11,360
Which of these two acts did you 
like more? 

858
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:18,080
I well, it's hard because I did 
like once we were, once we found

859
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:21,040
out that there was a vampire, I 
was like, what's going to 

860
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:23,120
happen? 
But I think like the moments of 

861
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:26,240
like eating garlic and stuff 
like those went on too long. 

862
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:30,440
And so I actually think the 
first half worked way more for 

863
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:35,480
me on reflection, even though I,
it's like I enjoyed the the 

864
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:40,200
action of the second-half more 
and I did like campy aspects of 

865
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:43,200
it. 
And I like I said, the the music

866
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:47,480
cues, but I think like in terms 
of actually reflecting on it, I 

867
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:50,160
think the first half was just 
better for me because of the 

868
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:54,400
tension building. 
I really liked when we had like 

869
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:58,120
the the build up of learning 
about both of the twins. 

870
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:01,560
I thought Michael B Jordan did a
really good job of like having 

871
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:07,000
distinct characters and also 
like figuring out who is Sammy, 

872
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:10,880
right? 
And so I I liked that. 

873
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:14,040
I liked when the vampire like 
comes on the scene, that was 

874
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:18,000
like a really good jump shot 
when he just like enters frame. 

875
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:20,680
Yeah, running to the house in 
the middle of the desert. 

876
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:22,400
Yeah, which we. 
Haunted down by do. 

877
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:24,640
We ever know. 
Indigenous vampire killers, 

878
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:26,920
right? 
Yeah, which like is a movie in 

879
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:31,840
itself. 
I I wonder and also a really 

880
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:35,520
great scene too, when they're 
like trying to help this woman 

881
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:38,880
who like is actively like 
protecting, right? 

882
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:40,680
There's that kind of like theme 
that's really interesting of 

883
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:45,400
this like self preservation, but
also protecting this white guy 

884
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:50,640
doesn't even know right who 
kills her and her husband, I 

885
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:52,560
think and. 
Maybe they're baby too. 

886
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:53,960
I. 
Saw I saw a crib they have. 

887
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:56,000
In a crib they're sitting next 
to I think. 

888
00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:00,480
But when when he like drops in 
the to the scene and I was going

889
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:02,160
to ask like, do we know if he 
can fly? 

890
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:07,080
We had some like cut scenes 
where he is jumping really high.

891
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:10,360
But is that? 
I'm a little bit confused why 

892
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:13,760
Coogler and his team and DP 
decided to not give us too much 

893
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:15,440
of the vampires and like what 
they can do. 

894
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:18,880
I know that it created tension. 
Like when we see him first fly 

895
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:21,560
up behind Hailee Steinfeld we 
literally grabbed each other's 

896
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:23,280
like shoulders. 
We're like holy shit this is 

897
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:25,120
crazy because. 
Was it behind her or? 

898
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:27,120
It was behind her. 
He was going to bite her and 

899
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:29,440
then we never see him bite her 
and then she shows up and then 

900
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:31,400
you know. 
Oh, right, right, right. 

901
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:34,240
Yeah. 
But then he flies down again to 

902
00:46:34,240 --> 00:46:37,280
he flies up to get Sammy, then 
flies down back to get Sammy. 

903
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:38,960
But we never really see the full
picture. 

904
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:40,720
We never really zoom out. 
That's what I would say about 

905
00:46:40,720 --> 00:46:41,920
this film. 
We're on the ground level with 

906
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:43,880
these characters a lot. 
So I never really get a feel for

907
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:45,680
the world outside. 
When we're in the the 

908
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:49,000
plantation, you can kind of see 
the the vastness of it, which 

909
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:51,400
again speaks to the themes of 
this movie that are distressing 

910
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:53,880
and unsettling. 
But besides that, you're really 

911
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:55,960
kind of at the at the ground 
level with these characters, 

912
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:59,000
whether you're in town with them
at the Juke joint or whether 

913
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:01,320
you're outside for the most 
part, especially at night time, 

914
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:03,280
you're you're not able to see 
the full world. 

915
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:05,040
That I found to be kind of 
frustrating in the 

916
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:08,400
cinematography that again, I 
haven't seen a lot discussed. 

917
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:11,760
But I I agree with you. 
I think the first act, the 

918
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:14,880
building of this 1930s 
Mississippi, was way more 

919
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:15,880
interesting. 
The daylight. 

920
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:18,120
Aspect. 
Oh yeah, I think the world 

921
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:21,400
building and building this vivid
picture of like the wooden 

922
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:26,560
porches, the the crates of like 
liquor, the the street duels 

923
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:28,680
that are going on, that feels 
like a dusty Western. 

924
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:33,000
I liked Coogler settling into a 
Western iconography and letting 

925
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:36,840
MBJ also come in with like a a 
gun and just like tearing down 

926
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:37,840
guys in the middle of the 
street. 

927
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:41,840
That feels Clint Eastwood like, 
which again, like black 

928
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:44,600
characters being sort of 
exploited in this genre, in the 

929
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:46,080
Western genre and the horror 
genre. 

930
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:48,240
And then again, Coogler coming 
back with a reclamation project 

931
00:47:48,240 --> 00:47:51,400
here is really like a cool meta 
experience while watching it, if

932
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:52,680
you're a fan of film in that 
way. 

933
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:56,360
And then seeing Michael B Jordan
really settle into those twin 

934
00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:58,920
roles and the distinct 
differences between them as one 

935
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:01,120
being more energetic and the 
other one being in more internal

936
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:03,760
or skeptical. 
Like I liked all of that. 

937
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:06,640
And I think that was really 
dramatic and sometimes 

938
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:09,760
melodramatic. 
What really surprised me is 

939
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:12,200
Sammy. 
He he's the one who we're first 

940
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:14,920
introduced to in the film. 
He's the real protagonist of the

941
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:18,560
movie, played by Miles Katyn, 
who I talked about in the first 

942
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:19,880
review we did for this film 
yesterday. 

943
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:21,560
But he is a vocalist in real 
life. 

944
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:24,080
I think he's only 20 years old 
or something like that, and this

945
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:27,280
is his acting debut and he 
really is the emotional and 

946
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:32,240
thematic center of this film. 
Character wise, Sammy is a Blues

947
00:48:32,240 --> 00:48:35,840
prodigy in the movie, kind of 
has a voice of a a prophet if 

948
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:39,720
you will, and has the the soul 
of someone caught in between his

949
00:48:39,720 --> 00:48:42,560
family's past and his own, kind 
of like uncertain future that we

950
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:45,040
will see at the end of the film 
in a post credit scene. 

951
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:49,880
And he has this conservative 
pastor father who preaches that 

952
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:54,360
music is sinful and Coogler 
really smartly. 

953
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:57,480
I think the smartest theme of 
this movie and idea is this idea

954
00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:01,400
that there's this emancipating 
power of music that has this 

955
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:04,560
cultural legacy that is then 
juxtaposed with this 

956
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:08,800
homogenizing destructive force 
of like a Church of an 

957
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:11,440
institution of religion. 
And then also the homogenizing 

958
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:14,440
group of vampires who to me, I 
think sort of represented like 

959
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:18,560
this, the devouring, like 
capitalist fate that we all feel

960
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:20,720
like our cultures are being 
ripped from us. 

961
00:49:20,720 --> 00:49:24,360
Even this Irish man, like his 
Irishness has been like branded 

962
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:27,440
and commodified. 
And juxtaposing that with the 

963
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:30,760
these other people who have been
like stolen from their countries

964
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:32,880
is really interesting. 
And then talking about like the 

965
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:35,400
spectrum of oppression through 
that is really fascinating. 

966
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:39,400
So I love what he does with 
Sammy and just the idea of music

967
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:41,320
and the musicality running 
through this movie is a major 

968
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:44,440
theme for how like music and 
speak to different generations 

969
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:48,080
and culture and and legacy and 
and it being this important art 

970
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:51,400
form that we can't let be 
totally, you know, distilled 

971
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:54,280
down to like this. 
This product, yeah, yeah. 

972
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:58,200
And also the the scene that you 
were talking about earlier, 

973
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:00,640
right? 
Like it literalizes that. 

974
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:05,280
And I like how Ryan Coogler kind
of played with there are like a 

975
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:08,720
lot of musical numbers in this, 
Even the Irish vampire, right? 

976
00:50:08,720 --> 00:50:11,600
Like has his own musical. 
He was killing it. 

977
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:17,240
But like obviously the like 
stand out 1 is when Sammy sings 

978
00:50:17,240 --> 00:50:22,120
at the club and we have kind of 
like Coogler also doing 

979
00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:25,400
something that we usually see in
musicals where there is like a 

980
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:29,440
breaking of reality almost in a,
in a musical number. 

981
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:34,600
And then we like go back to the 
reality of the the world where 

982
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:37,280
and and I thought that was like 
really interesting to put in 

983
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:40,520
this movie and also just really 
surprising too, because we're in

984
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:44,560
a vampire movie, right? 
Like that is heightened. 

985
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:48,200
That is like a a can't be horror
vibe that is also like this 

986
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:53,240
drama between brothers and but 
but to like have all the 

987
00:50:53,240 --> 00:50:59,160
different like people come like 
physically right into the actual

988
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:04,080
club dancing around Sammy as we 
kind of have the like monologue 

989
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:09,200
about the like power of music. 
That was like, I mean, obviously

990
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:16,000
like a really interesting scene 
and and an example of like why I

991
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:18,080
am seated for like cooler's 
movies. 

992
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:20,280
Like I'm, I want to see like 
what? 

993
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:24,040
Like I'm like, Oh, that's so 
cool that I just got to like see

994
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:27,120
what how he literalized that on 
screen. 

995
00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:29,360
It's kind of the encapsulation 
of my thoughts on this movie, 

996
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:31,360
which is like, I'm so glad it 
exists. 

997
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:33,560
I feel lucky to have seen it in 
a theatre. 

998
00:51:33,720 --> 00:51:36,760
It feels very special. 
It feels also out of place with 

999
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:38,960
the whole movie. 
And I think that's kind of how I

1000
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:40,920
feel about a lot of the moments 
in this film that have high 

1001
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:43,160
highs. 
Like this high high feels really

1002
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:46,920
out of place. 
And was it incredible to like 

1003
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:50,040
see people from the past? 
Like you have masked W African 

1004
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:53,960
dancers, you have 19th century 
field workers, you have tribal 

1005
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:58,080
like percussionists, you got 
people like you got DJ 

1006
00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:01,400
scratching vinyl. 
Like there's like funk music 

1007
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:03,080
going on. 
There's also like contemporary 

1008
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:04,880
rap music and hip hop culture 
going on. 

1009
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:09,080
There's a lot of stuff happening
that speaks to the ideas of this

1010
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:10,800
movie. 
It's surreal and overwhelming 

1011
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:12,440
and sometimes like 
hallucinogenic in a really 

1012
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:14,480
successful way. 
And it's the best visual 

1013
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:17,560
metaphor of getting across this 
idea of like this vision of, of 

1014
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:22,520
lineage through music and how 
art is really important to 

1015
00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:26,040
express lives lost or lives that
could be in the future. 

1016
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:28,560
And like how we can talk about 
different cultures and making 

1017
00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:32,320
sure that they're not 
commodified and not homogenized 

1018
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:35,160
by our capitalist system or by, 
you know, powers that be that 

1019
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:38,680
want to do those things. 
And so I thought all of that was

1020
00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:40,080
like really cool and great 
ideas. 

1021
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:42,080
But again, I'm like, so glad I 
got to see it. 

1022
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:45,800
And I was like, I wish either 
the film was like this, like had

1023
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:48,360
a bunch of these surreal moments
or that I wish it was like this 

1024
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:50,200
Western. 
There were like 3 or 4 different

1025
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:53,600
parts of this film that I was 
like, I wish I just watched this

1026
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:56,280
movie and I know for some people
they're going to be like, well, 

1027
00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:58,040
it all worked for me. 
It was cohesive. 

1028
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:00,760
I feel like that's good that I 
wanted more of each of these 

1029
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:04,040
segments, these tonal or genre 
segments or these these feelings

1030
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:06,120
that are being expressed. 
I wanted more of this because 

1031
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:09,040
there there could be a franchise
of sinners movies or whatever. 

1032
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:12,160
I just needed something I think 
I I could grab onto more, hold 

1033
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:14,560
on to more. 
And maybe that's a little bit of

1034
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:18,960
my own genre pilled brain that I
feel like I need some kind of 

1035
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:24,280
comfortable rules or or a 
framework to hold onto. 

1036
00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:27,480
But then I was also trying to be
like, you know, self aware and 

1037
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:31,000
maybe it just is very messy and 
it's excitingly messy, but still

1038
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:32,520
messy. 
And so that matters too. 

1039
00:53:32,720 --> 00:53:34,200
Yeah, no, I mean, that's how I 
felt too. 

1040
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:37,880
I think I I loved the scene, but
I ultimately was like, this just

1041
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:41,320
doesn't feel like what I was 
like building up to or like we 

1042
00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:44,920
just moved on quickly from. 
It felt like a lot of different 

1043
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:49,840
ideas that were like segmented 
in the movie more so like I, I 

1044
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:54,160
felt like there wasn't there 
wasn't like transitions or like 

1045
00:53:54,240 --> 00:53:58,800
a seamless kind of thing that 
put them together for me. 

1046
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:02,120
Like for me, what was most 
interesting about the movie and 

1047
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:09,320
I wish like was more explored 
just like personally was like, 

1048
00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:11,160
'cause I was going to say like 
instead of the camp, but not 

1049
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:13,720
instead of the camp because like
that's like what the movie is. 

1050
00:54:13,720 --> 00:54:16,080
I think more so leaning into it 
and is actually successful at 

1051
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:19,480
even though the vampires just 
don't work for me personally. 

1052
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:22,480
What were the like? 
I I wish the movie lean more 

1053
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:26,520
into the like the brothers a 
little bit more. 

1054
00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:28,600
I thought I was like the most 
successful part of the movie, 

1055
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:33,760
like the reaction for Michael B 
Jordan to Michael B Jordan dying

1056
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:36,880
like that was really like 
powerful. 

1057
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:40,200
And I believed that like, even 
though he understood that he may

1058
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:43,720
have become a vampire and was 
now this like danger and threat 

1059
00:54:43,720 --> 00:54:45,920
that he still wanted to save his
brother. 

1060
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:50,800
And also, I think the tension 
between the brothers in terms of

1061
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:57,640
like the the kind of like 
detail, right, of not taking the

1062
00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:01,920
the money that people who are 
living in this town are like 

1063
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:03,920
using. 
Like that was an interesting 

1064
00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:07,960
specific like conversation 
intention that they were coming 

1065
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:12,320
back to. 
That also spoke more to the the 

1066
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:18,640
kind of like goals and 
constraints of the brothers that

1067
00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:23,440
they also were were facing like 
in Chicago and Mississippi. 

1068
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:28,120
And so like I, I think like that
specific aspect, like I wish I 

1069
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:29,880
learned more about their time in
Chicago. 

1070
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:33,320
I wish I learned more about like
kind of the maybe the racism 

1071
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:37,520
that also exists, right, Like 
not only in the South, in the US

1072
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:41,440
and also the kind of which it 
was there, but like kind of the 

1073
00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:46,520
capitalism themes of like the 
specific money we got the gold, 

1074
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:50,840
right, Like that was it felt 
symbol, but very. 

1075
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:52,840
Clearly. 
Yeah, but I, yeah, that's I, I 

1076
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:57,240
wish it like took that theme and
conversation and tension between

1077
00:55:57,240 --> 00:56:00,520
the brothers like a little bit 
more into the vampire part of 

1078
00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:02,320
the story. 
Yeah, they brought it up earlier

1079
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:04,880
in the movie too. 
And Annie didn't want MB JS 

1080
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:07,240
characters money and she was 
like I don't want that money. 

1081
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:08,840
I have this money and that's 
like blood soaked. 

1082
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:10,480
Yeah, that's, that's what I was 
the part I was talking. 

1083
00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:12,360
About oh, OK, yeah, there. 
I mean, there's a few moments 

1084
00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:14,720
like that. 
I think Coogler has always been 

1085
00:56:14,720 --> 00:56:19,920
exploring this idea, which is 
like how to reckon with the fact

1086
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:24,160
that those who are oppressed are
being forced to use the tools of

1087
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:27,600
the oppressor to survive and 
like build any kind of form of 

1088
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:29,600
stability. 
And then this Juke joint 

1089
00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:34,680
becoming this place like this 
faux utopia of where a community

1090
00:56:34,680 --> 00:56:37,840
can live and through different 
cultures of their past and maybe

1091
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:39,520
their future and the present 
obviously. 

1092
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:44,160
And then having these two KKK 
people turned vampires and this 

1093
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:48,400
one Irish guy who is trying to, 
like, steal your culture and 

1094
00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:52,720
commodify it and take it as his 
own because the emancipating 

1095
00:56:52,720 --> 00:56:57,200
power of music is dangerous. 
And like Sammy has it and you 

1096
00:56:57,200 --> 00:56:59,680
know, Jack O'connell's character
wants to steal it for himself. 

1097
00:56:59,920 --> 00:57:03,440
And then say that, well, at 
least we have a quality, right? 

1098
00:57:03,440 --> 00:57:05,520
We're we're living this post 
discrimination world. 

1099
00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:07,840
Vampires live forever. 
We don't worry about things like

1100
00:57:08,240 --> 00:57:11,440
as trivial as our like 
subcultures or our identities. 

1101
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:13,200
We just have each other. 
We're one big family. 

1102
00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:15,640
We're all the same. 
And they really get that point 

1103
00:57:15,640 --> 00:57:16,800
across. 
And they're all doing the same 

1104
00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:19,560
dance together outside the 
house, which, you know, looks 

1105
00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:21,640
fun for the actors and the 
characters, I guess. 

1106
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:24,600
But also they're making a point.
I guess that's still coming 

1107
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:27,760
through. 
But I guess my my larger, the 

1108
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:30,480
interest about that idea with 
the money, and I think you're 

1109
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:33,560
right, is that it just feels a 
lot of ideals, ideas in this 

1110
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:35,840
movie kind of feel in conflict 
with one another. 

1111
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:39,800
They're not totally developed. 
And I think a lot of it is 

1112
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:43,120
because Ryan Coogler has been 
exploring these ideas for a few,

1113
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:45,840
a few years or basically a 
decade now, a few movies in a 

1114
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:48,120
row. 
He explored this with Creed, the

1115
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:50,800
class commentary and Creed is 
the most the most complicated 

1116
00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:54,040
part of that movie. 
Black Panther is about this very

1117
00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:56,760
idea about Wakanda is this 
utopia, but then also feeling 

1118
00:57:56,760 --> 00:58:00,000
the obligation to help others. 
And then this movie center is 

1119
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:02,480
being about like creating some 
of the first black-owned 

1120
00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:05,560
businesses, but through this 
like blood stained money that 

1121
00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:09,240
was acquired through exploiting 
your people and your culture. 

1122
00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:14,200
And like the paradox of that. 
And like I just they these ideas

1123
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:17,120
haven't fully it's a through 
line of his project, but I don't

1124
00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:20,440
think he's fully successfully 
executed on those ideas. 

1125
00:58:20,440 --> 00:58:22,680
And it's something we talked 
about again with Nope, which is 

1126
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:27,200
about these very ideas too. 
That that movie, I think does it

1127
00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:29,520
masterfully. 
That's just a a brilliant 

1128
00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:32,400
screenplay that are I'm only 
comparing again because it's 

1129
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:35,000
literally the same idea when it 
comes to like the cost of 

1130
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:39,120
assimilation, the cost of the 
American dream that I think 

1131
00:58:39,120 --> 00:58:42,000
Sinner struggles a little bit 
more with because it's trying 

1132
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:44,640
also to be so entertaining. 
It's trying to be Spielberg. 

1133
00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:46,320
Yeah. 
So I mean it, yeah. 

1134
00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:49,640
And silly. 
And it is like, you know, 'cause

1135
00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:51,800
I think that's. 
What reminds me of dressing? 

1136
00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:53,680
People who loved it, yeah, 
people who loved it might be 

1137
00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:56,480
like you all are wanting a 
different movie. 

1138
00:58:56,480 --> 00:58:59,960
This was like a Carpenter 
creature feature, even though 

1139
00:58:59,960 --> 00:59:03,240
our vampires creature features. 
I don't know, but like but in 

1140
00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:10,520
that right, like kind of vain. 
But I think that like I what 

1141
00:59:10,520 --> 00:59:13,160
you're saying, like Coogler is 
coming back to these themes and 

1142
00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:14,480
questions. 
It's like something that I 

1143
00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:16,880
wanted to see continued because 
that was the most interesting 

1144
00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:18,400
part of the movie to me at the 
beginning. 

1145
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:23,760
That wasn't continued on. 
And then we went more to the 

1146
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:32,200
kind of spectacle aspects of 
vampire vampiring, vampirism, 

1147
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:36,520
vampire, whatever the vampires 
are doing. 

1148
00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:40,760
But yeah, so, so that that's 
ultimately I think like how how 

1149
00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:44,920
I felt and why I liked it and I 
was like immersed in the world. 

1150
00:59:45,280 --> 00:59:47,200
I just was like, I left the 
theater. 

1151
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:51,800
I think like wanting more and 
just not like as as excited by 

1152
00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:57,440
some of the the parts of it that
I maybe should have been in the 

1153
00:59:57,440 --> 00:59:59,440
moments of the the vampire of it
all. 

1154
01:00:00,960 --> 01:00:02,960
We can end on this note because 
I think we already talked about 

1155
01:00:02,960 --> 01:00:05,800
the third act being sort of a 
mess choreography wise and and 

1156
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:08,760
being rushed in like the 
fighting sequences, except for 

1157
01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:12,160
the shootout, which is great 
from MBJ, who has always been a 

1158
01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:15,440
great action superstar. 
But clearly, like he is now 

1159
01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:18,440
transcended. 
Whatever tear that like Chris 

1160
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:21,280
Evans is in, like Michael B 
Jordan is like in a special 

1161
01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:22,160
place. 
Yeah. 

1162
01:00:22,160 --> 01:00:25,560
Like below a Tom Cruise or Will 
Smith or maybe a Brad Pitt. 

1163
01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:27,520
But he's like around that tear 
of actor. 

1164
01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:31,440
I don't know where he is in the 
current kind of super stardom of

1165
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:34,240
guys who can like lead a movie 
that are $100 million, but he's 

1166
01:00:34,240 --> 01:00:35,360
up there. 
He's up there. 

1167
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:39,280
Yeah, But I was going to say 
that Ryan Coogler, in 

1168
01:00:39,280 --> 01:00:44,440
interviews, he talks about this 
movie being his final crack at 

1169
01:00:44,440 --> 01:00:47,440
this idea of like a, a Faustian 
bargain, which is something I 

1170
01:00:47,440 --> 01:00:50,120
explored on my my last, you 
know, the reaction episode for 

1171
01:00:50,120 --> 01:00:52,480
this movie. 
And I just don't think he 

1172
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:54,920
totally got that across. 
I don't think people are walking

1173
01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:58,840
out of the theater wondering 
about the sacrifice people are 

1174
01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:00,880
forced to contend with in 
capitalism. 

1175
01:01:00,880 --> 01:01:03,240
Like I don't think that's the 
the commentary people are 

1176
01:01:03,240 --> 01:01:05,320
walking away with in this movie.
I think it's more if anything, 

1177
01:01:05,320 --> 01:01:07,680
people walk away with the idea 
of like what I've been saying, 

1178
01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:10,680
the the emancipating power of 
music, which is good enough as 

1179
01:01:10,680 --> 01:01:12,120
like a theme. 
That's a pretty strong theme 

1180
01:01:12,120 --> 01:01:15,160
that the fact that this movie's 
sort of a musical is wild to me 

1181
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:17,280
because that wasn't in the 
marketing at all, but it really 

1182
01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:19,080
is. 
And it from Ludwig Gorenson's 

1183
01:01:19,080 --> 01:01:21,360
score and then the sound 
designers who in the mixers, 

1184
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:24,600
especially that one musical 
scene in the movie, they did a 

1185
01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:27,600
wonderful job and they probably 
will deserve Oscars a year from 

1186
01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:31,360
now. 
But when it comes to like 

1187
01:01:31,360 --> 01:01:33,840
Coogler, trying to explore this 
idea that people's identities 

1188
01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:37,960
have become brands for others to
steal or commodify and that can 

1189
01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:40,200
be tracked, backed in our 
history as a country to our 

1190
01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:42,920
roots. 
I think I'm not sure that people

1191
01:01:42,920 --> 01:01:44,200
are walking out of centers with 
that. 

1192
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:47,440
And so I I appreciate that. 
And it makes me like the movie 

1193
01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:48,920
more. 
And I think this is what a lot 

1194
01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:51,080
of critics are running into 
right now, which is the fact 

1195
01:01:51,080 --> 01:01:54,040
that can you separate your 
relationship to how cool and 

1196
01:01:54,040 --> 01:01:57,520
smart Ryan Coogler is from this 
movie's messiness? 

1197
01:01:57,720 --> 01:01:59,080
And I don't think a lot of 
people can. 

1198
01:01:59,360 --> 01:02:02,600
But if I watch this movie, like 
at a random Film Festival and 

1199
01:02:02,600 --> 01:02:04,360
didn't know it was Coogler, I'd 
be like, wow, this is really 

1200
01:02:04,360 --> 01:02:07,560
ambitious and bold. 
But it would have reminded me of

1201
01:02:07,560 --> 01:02:12,240
like a a shape shifting genre 
film that was like a a silly and

1202
01:02:12,240 --> 01:02:15,000
fun and sometimes melodramatic, 
but ultimately had like a really

1203
01:02:15,160 --> 01:02:17,520
it had a ceiling because it 
didn't really know how it wanted

1204
01:02:17,520 --> 01:02:19,920
to find a through liner, a 
coherent vibe or tone or 

1205
01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:21,640
atmosphere. 
And it would have reminded me of

1206
01:02:21,640 --> 01:02:23,480
that movie that came out a few 
years ago that I liked. 

1207
01:02:23,840 --> 01:02:25,960
What was that film with John 
Boyega? 

1208
01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:29,320
Oh, Netflix film. 
Yes. 

1209
01:02:29,320 --> 01:02:30,800
What was that? 
Oh, I know what you're talking. 

1210
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:33,240
About Oh my God. 
Oh, I have a big Scooby-doo. 

1211
01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:35,160
They clone Tyrone. 
Yeah, right. 

1212
01:02:35,160 --> 01:02:38,520
It's a very similar movie in 
terms of the way it's blending 

1213
01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:40,680
genre and kind of in the 
conversation with like a 

1214
01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:45,400
Tarantino vibe that had a 
ceiling, but it knew it, right. 

1215
01:02:45,400 --> 01:02:47,520
It knew that it had a ceiling. 
And then it's commentary was 

1216
01:02:47,520 --> 01:02:49,520
like smart. 
But also it didn't it wasn't 

1217
01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:52,720
preaching, it wasn't didactic. 
And I feel very similarly to 

1218
01:02:52,720 --> 01:02:56,240
Sinners, but I just, I can't get
on the same like masterpiece 

1219
01:02:57,560 --> 01:02:59,600
that people are on right now, 
which is fine, which is fine. 

1220
01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:02,320
I think I'm just trying to give 
a lot of context because I know 

1221
01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:03,720
people feel strongly about this.
Film, right? 

1222
01:03:03,800 --> 01:03:06,040
Yeah. 
OK, anything else about the 

1223
01:03:06,040 --> 01:03:11,360
vampires or Jack O'Connell? 
I think I really explained 

1224
01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:15,600
really went into a deep dive on 
my vampire relationship, but I 

1225
01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:17,640
thought the the vampire 
performances were fun. 

1226
01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:21,200
I also something that I didn't 
talk about, I did enjoy, like 

1227
01:03:22,200 --> 01:03:26,480
the the kind of like figuring 
out like who was bit who was not

1228
01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:31,320
mystery around, like why the 
vampire has to be invited into 

1229
01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:35,200
the into the like the room, 
right, like those those really 

1230
01:03:35,200 --> 01:03:38,000
good tension building moments. 
There's one great moment when 

1231
01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:42,520
Omar Benson Miller, who is 
playing Cornbread, tries to come

1232
01:03:42,520 --> 01:03:45,920
in and then MBJ sticks his hand 
out to give him money or 

1233
01:03:45,920 --> 01:03:49,600
whatever it is, and then he 
grabs his arm and swings him 

1234
01:03:49,600 --> 01:03:50,680
out. 
And then he does like this video

1235
01:03:50,680 --> 01:03:53,200
game Resident Evil gunshot to 
the side. 

1236
01:03:53,720 --> 01:03:55,400
That was awesome. 
Like that was a cool action 

1237
01:03:55,400 --> 01:03:56,960
scene where I was like, where is
where is this? 

1238
01:03:56,960 --> 01:03:58,880
I want to see more of this like 
that was really well 

1239
01:03:58,880 --> 01:04:03,080
choreographed. 
Or like when Lijian Li as Grace 

1240
01:04:03,520 --> 01:04:06,320
kills her husband or fake 
husband or like vampire husband 

1241
01:04:06,480 --> 01:04:09,120
to save her daughter. 
Like that was a good set piece 

1242
01:04:09,120 --> 01:04:11,200
and also tragic. 
There were just I felt like a 

1243
01:04:11,200 --> 01:04:14,200
lot of moments like that were 
were missing from the film or 

1244
01:04:14,200 --> 01:04:16,680
like when Andy dies at the end, 
even that's a really interesting

1245
01:04:16,680 --> 01:04:19,080
character. 
And Juan Mimosaku gives a good 

1246
01:04:19,080 --> 01:04:21,480
performance considering what 
she's given, which I don't think

1247
01:04:21,480 --> 01:04:24,200
is a lot with that character in 
terms of like playing this like 

1248
01:04:24,200 --> 01:04:29,080
Mystic trope character, even 
though it's like a very real 

1249
01:04:29,720 --> 01:04:31,760
depiction of somebody, 
especially of this era. 

1250
01:04:31,760 --> 01:04:34,640
But still if it felt very 
archetypal, if that makes sense.

1251
01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:37,080
And so like Coogler talked about
wanting to be realistic to this 

1252
01:04:37,080 --> 01:04:39,560
era in Mississippi, but I still 
feel like we didn't get enough 

1253
01:04:39,560 --> 01:04:42,000
character. 
It just felt like a like a widow

1254
01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:44,920
figure, I guess to Michael B 
Jordan's character because they 

1255
01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:48,120
lost a child. 
Yeah, I, I don't know, I, I, I 

1256
01:04:48,120 --> 01:04:50,880
definitely like, yeah, I talked 
about the, the underwritten, 

1257
01:04:50,880 --> 01:04:53,800
like women, I think in the, the 
movie, even though Andy had the 

1258
01:04:53,800 --> 01:04:56,160
most to do. 
But yeah, it was also like 

1259
01:04:56,160 --> 01:05:01,160
tragic when, you know, Michael B
Jordan's character had to like, 

1260
01:05:01,160 --> 01:05:05,840
kill her too, right, 'cause she 
like, he promised her basically 

1261
01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:08,720
to like save her by killing her 
with the wooden stakes. 

1262
01:05:08,720 --> 01:05:12,480
So, like all, all that worked. 
It's just that it was like so 

1263
01:05:12,480 --> 01:05:16,920
rushed at that point and I was 
like, I, I, I didn't really love

1264
01:05:16,920 --> 01:05:20,080
the build up inside, like 
between the characters. 

1265
01:05:20,520 --> 01:05:24,000
I felt a little forced just in 
terms of like planning of what 

1266
01:05:24,120 --> 01:05:26,360
what they were going to do, 
trying to figure out what the 

1267
01:05:26,360 --> 01:05:29,880
vampires were there for. 
I was like, why are we inside 

1268
01:05:29,960 --> 01:05:33,080
this much? 
For me, I I think we should 

1269
01:05:33,080 --> 01:05:38,320
though talk about the the coda 
before we do our extra credits. 

1270
01:05:38,360 --> 01:05:41,360
Yeah, yeah. 
OK, let's let's talk about the 

1271
01:05:41,360 --> 01:05:43,440
post credit scene. 
We only saw the one of them. 

1272
01:05:43,560 --> 01:05:45,880
Or wait, why did I say what does
coda mean? 

1273
01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:47,200
I don't know the end of the 
movie. 

1274
01:05:49,160 --> 01:05:50,840
Is that accurate? 
I think so. 

1275
01:05:52,120 --> 01:05:56,200
Post credit scene. 
So we have Sammy, who's playing 

1276
01:05:56,200 --> 01:06:02,400
out a club and it's after his 
performance and basically like 

1277
01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:05,080
someone's like, hey, there's two
people who want to come in, 

1278
01:06:05,160 --> 01:06:06,920
they're going to pay money to 
come in. 

1279
01:06:07,560 --> 01:06:13,360
And it ends up being Michael B 
Jordan and Hailee Steinfeld, and

1280
01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:17,360
they're vampires who lived 
forever and. 

1281
01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:21,120
I they look cool. 
Yeah, and they were in the 90s, 

1282
01:06:21,160 --> 01:06:22,320
right? 
Yeah, or 80s. 

1283
01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:24,480
Yeah, 90s. 
And I think they asked Sammy at 

1284
01:06:24,480 --> 01:06:27,400
that point, like, hey, do you 
want to like, become a vampire 

1285
01:06:27,400 --> 01:06:29,240
now? 
Is that the conversation? 

1286
01:06:29,240 --> 01:06:32,240
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
He basically is like I was told 

1287
01:06:32,240 --> 01:06:36,160
by my brother to let you live 
because he let me live, right? 

1288
01:06:36,480 --> 01:06:39,600
And so I've been doing that, but
you're hitting your old age, and

1289
01:06:39,600 --> 01:06:41,600
I'm just trying to see if you 
want to be one of us and live 

1290
01:06:41,600 --> 01:06:44,320
forever. 
And Sammy is kind of having a 

1291
01:06:44,320 --> 01:06:47,240
moment and then plays music for 
those characters and then it 

1292
01:06:47,240 --> 01:06:50,320
becomes an interesting again, 
Kugler ISM where he wants us to 

1293
01:06:50,320 --> 01:06:54,560
now like be more sympathetic to 
these vampires, right, Which to 

1294
01:06:54,560 --> 01:06:57,560
me again, the vampires are just 
people who've assimilated like 

1295
01:06:57,560 --> 01:06:59,880
that's the metaphor and are 
basically capitalist. 

1296
01:06:59,880 --> 01:07:01,440
Like that's how I'm I'm taking I
think so. 

1297
01:07:01,560 --> 01:07:04,280
And then Cougar still being like
we can find a way to sympathize 

1298
01:07:04,280 --> 01:07:05,880
with these people because we're 
all forced to contend with 

1299
01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:08,840
living in this reality. 
And so I think that's the 

1300
01:07:08,840 --> 01:07:12,400
comment, except Sammy is 
somebody who's never moved on 

1301
01:07:12,400 --> 01:07:14,720
from this totally. 
And when he starts playing this 

1302
01:07:14,720 --> 01:07:16,280
music. 
Yeah, because he like, wakes up 

1303
01:07:16,280 --> 01:07:17,840
in the middle of the night 
having nightmares about the 

1304
01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:19,160
night. 
Yeah, and he's changed the 

1305
01:07:19,160 --> 01:07:20,840
different ways he's played 
music. 

1306
01:07:20,840 --> 01:07:23,080
They Michael B Jordan jokes that
he doesn't like the newer stuff.

1307
01:07:23,080 --> 01:07:26,080
He likes the older stuff. 
But what was interesting about 

1308
01:07:26,080 --> 01:07:31,080
it was that Sammy was sort of 
using this moment to to kind of 

1309
01:07:31,080 --> 01:07:33,440
grieve. 
And then you saw the vampires 

1310
01:07:33,440 --> 01:07:35,720
kind of get emotional in 
response to the music, which is 

1311
01:07:35,720 --> 01:07:37,000
interesting because they're not 
human. 

1312
01:07:37,440 --> 01:07:41,920
And so again, Coogler doing some
weird stuff that I think allows 

1313
01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:44,440
him if he wants to, because I 
don't know if I mentioned this, 

1314
01:07:44,440 --> 01:07:46,880
but he owns the IP to this for 
25 years. 

1315
01:07:46,880 --> 01:07:49,120
And then Warner Brothers is 
going to take this IP in 25 

1316
01:07:49,120 --> 01:07:50,640
years. 
It's a very rare. 

1317
01:07:50,720 --> 01:07:53,920
Wait, he owns it for the 1st 20?
1st 25 years and then goes to 

1318
01:07:53,920 --> 01:07:56,280
Warner Brothers. 
Oh, I thought he gets it after. 

1319
01:07:56,520 --> 01:07:58,160
No, he gets it for these first 
25. 

1320
01:07:58,560 --> 01:08:01,200
Yeah, that was the contract. 
And I think the last time this 

1321
01:08:01,200 --> 01:08:02,680
happened was is that a new 
thing, Tarantino movie? 

1322
01:08:02,680 --> 01:08:05,160
It doesn't happen a lot. 
Studio execs that's coming out 

1323
01:08:05,160 --> 01:08:06,440
today have been freaking out 
about it. 

1324
01:08:06,440 --> 01:08:07,960
There's been some like 
journalism and. 

1325
01:08:08,200 --> 01:08:10,000
Some background research. 
We're going to lose our money. 

1326
01:08:10,000 --> 01:08:11,960
We're going to lose our IP, 
which is like what they've been,

1327
01:08:12,000 --> 01:08:14,640
you know, feeding off of. 
But considering Coogler, the 

1328
01:08:14,640 --> 01:08:17,520
whole the whole aspect of this 
movie that's interesting is that

1329
01:08:17,520 --> 01:08:19,479
he made an original story. 
I don't think he's really going 

1330
01:08:19,479 --> 01:08:22,720
to be like Sinners, the prequel 
where we follow the Twins into 

1331
01:08:22,960 --> 01:08:26,279
New York with gangs and like 
hitting the Irish and the 

1332
01:08:26,279 --> 01:08:28,520
Italian against one another. 
Like that sounds awesome. 

1333
01:08:28,760 --> 01:08:31,160
And like, let's get Martin 
Scorsese to Co direct that with 

1334
01:08:31,279 --> 01:08:32,760
Brian Coogler. 
That sounds really cool. 

1335
01:08:33,240 --> 01:08:35,279
But I doubt he's going to do 
that. 

1336
01:08:35,399 --> 01:08:39,439
Yeah, he could pass it off to 
other people like Coogler could,

1337
01:08:39,439 --> 01:08:41,720
which would be interesting. 
Like a like a Sinners franchise.

1338
01:08:41,720 --> 01:08:44,560
Yeah, I mean. 
But I like the the coda, I like 

1339
01:08:44,560 --> 01:08:47,000
the the the first end of credit 
scene. 

1340
01:08:47,240 --> 01:08:49,000
Yeah. 
But I I also think, yeah, it was

1341
01:08:49,000 --> 01:08:54,040
interesting because the the 
vampires, like when we first 

1342
01:08:54,120 --> 01:08:58,800
meet them, like when Michael B 
Jordan first gets bit by Hailee 

1343
01:08:58,800 --> 01:09:02,160
Steinfeld, like, and Hailee 
Steinfeld is a vampire, like 

1344
01:09:02,439 --> 01:09:07,520
they are acting essentially like
very different from how they 

1345
01:09:07,520 --> 01:09:09,080
were acting in this end credits 
scene. 

1346
01:09:09,080 --> 01:09:11,840
So I was kind of confused about 
what the message of the vampire 

1347
01:09:11,840 --> 01:09:16,200
was then ultimately, because 
Sammy asks and Michael B Jordan,

1348
01:09:16,200 --> 01:09:17,359
like, do you still think about 
that night? 

1349
01:09:17,359 --> 01:09:19,319
Because it, it scarred me 
essentially, right. 

1350
01:09:19,319 --> 01:09:21,960
And he was like, yeah, that was 
like the last time I saw my 

1351
01:09:21,960 --> 01:09:24,160
brother, right? 
Like he. 

1352
01:09:24,399 --> 01:09:30,040
So yeah, it was like interesting
how the vampire, I guess persona

1353
01:09:30,880 --> 01:09:37,279
changed from a kind of 
possession film message in the 

1354
01:09:37,640 --> 01:09:40,800
in the 30s. 
And then in the 90s, it was, you

1355
01:09:40,800 --> 01:09:45,240
know, there was like a whole 
different tone or, or I guess 

1356
01:09:45,279 --> 01:09:50,920
just like even characterization 
like so that that was confusing 

1357
01:09:50,920 --> 01:09:53,720
to me too, a little bit. 
Yeah, I agree. 

1358
01:09:53,960 --> 01:09:57,560
We can get to our extra credits.
So I think we've we've probably 

1359
01:09:57,600 --> 01:10:01,080
reviewed this long enough. 
I don't want to be repetitive to

1360
01:10:01,080 --> 01:10:04,520
I apologize if I have been or or
gals because I think we just we 

1361
01:10:04,520 --> 01:10:07,840
feel very similar. 
Don't apologize for no no I I 

1362
01:10:07,840 --> 01:10:08,920
also don't want to be 
repetitive. 

1363
01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:11,040
Well, I just don't want people 
to hear the same opinions, I 

1364
01:10:11,080 --> 01:10:13,840
guess, because like on Mickey 17
we discreet a little bit, right?

1365
01:10:13,840 --> 01:10:17,240
Like I thought that movie was 
like, actually it didn't work. 

1366
01:10:17,240 --> 01:10:19,680
Yeah, this is a good example of 
like, yeah, because I like to 

1367
01:10:19,680 --> 01:10:21,800
Mickey 17 more than you. 
I think you like centers a 

1368
01:10:21,800 --> 01:10:23,680
little bit more than me. 
I do, yeah. 

1369
01:10:25,280 --> 01:10:27,800
Which are both like kind of 
sci-fi campy. 

1370
01:10:28,760 --> 01:10:30,960
Right, OK. 
I know people maybe wouldn't say

1371
01:10:31,000 --> 01:10:33,160
Mickey 17 can't be, but I think 
I think it fits. 

1372
01:10:33,160 --> 01:10:35,720
So I'm just going to repeat my 
extra credit from yesterday 

1373
01:10:35,960 --> 01:10:38,640
because not everybody's listened
to that episode, but Ludwig 

1374
01:10:38,640 --> 01:10:42,120
Goranson's score and the 
different sound mixing going on 

1375
01:10:42,120 --> 01:10:44,200
in this movie from his team. 
And I don't have their names 

1376
01:10:44,200 --> 01:10:46,920
here, but shout out them. 
And for people who are invested 

1377
01:10:47,240 --> 01:10:50,760
in the musicality of this movie,
there's a lot of great behind 

1378
01:10:50,760 --> 01:10:53,280
the scenes features already 
coming out today and yesterday 

1379
01:10:53,360 --> 01:10:56,560
on YouTube, I believe. 
And Del Del Roy Lindo's 

1380
01:10:56,560 --> 01:10:59,880
performance in this movie we 
have not really talked about. 

1381
01:11:00,720 --> 01:11:02,200
I know we said it and I I think 
it's fine. 

1382
01:11:02,200 --> 01:11:04,400
We share one here. 
I the reason I'm giving extra 

1383
01:11:04,400 --> 01:11:06,320
credit to both of them is I 
think that they're they're kind 

1384
01:11:06,320 --> 01:11:09,560
of working in harmony together. 
And Goransson, even though he 

1385
01:11:09,560 --> 01:11:12,600
scores the movie, his score is 
about memory. 

1386
01:11:12,600 --> 01:11:15,600
His score is about Blues, of 
course, in like gospel and and 

1387
01:11:15,600 --> 01:11:18,120
metal and Irish hymns and all 
these different types of music, 

1388
01:11:18,320 --> 01:11:21,680
but they're all stitched 
together to talk through this 

1389
01:11:21,680 --> 01:11:24,760
idea of how culture can be 
passed down through music and 

1390
01:11:24,760 --> 01:11:28,040
art, which is very powerful. 
And like obviously Coogler doing

1391
01:11:28,040 --> 01:11:30,920
that through a cinematic 
language is very powerful. 

1392
01:11:31,240 --> 01:11:34,600
And Delroy Lindo, his 
performance sort of represents 

1393
01:11:34,600 --> 01:11:35,720
this. 
And his character represents 

1394
01:11:35,720 --> 01:11:39,960
this because his character is 
like carrying generations on his

1395
01:11:39,960 --> 01:11:42,400
back, right? 
He is funny and bitter and he's 

1396
01:11:42,400 --> 01:11:45,480
like one of the great levity 
characters of this movie. 

1397
01:11:45,880 --> 01:11:48,640
But also there's a moment in 
this film where he's like 

1398
01:11:48,640 --> 01:11:52,040
driving in the car with Sammy 
and and B JS character and he 

1399
01:11:52,040 --> 01:11:55,720
sees people that he knows who 
are like in this incarcerated 

1400
01:11:55,720 --> 01:12:00,040
slave labor job and he shouts 
out to them and he's driving 

1401
01:12:00,040 --> 01:12:03,880
away and he starts singing for 
what feels to be like friends 

1402
01:12:03,880 --> 01:12:06,800
lost in the past or people he 
doesn't know anymore who are 

1403
01:12:06,800 --> 01:12:09,920
gone or have been murdered or 
stuck in those positions of 

1404
01:12:09,920 --> 01:12:12,040
slavery still in this Jim Crow 
South. 

1405
01:12:12,400 --> 01:12:14,600
And it's just a devastating 
character. 

1406
01:12:14,760 --> 01:12:18,320
And the music feels like, it's 
like also the way it bleeds 

1407
01:12:18,320 --> 01:12:21,760
through the movie feels in 
conversation with those ideas. 

1408
01:12:21,880 --> 01:12:25,280
So I think I love how those, the
score in that character kind of 

1409
01:12:25,280 --> 01:12:27,560
speak to one another. 
And I love how Delroy Lindo's 

1410
01:12:27,560 --> 01:12:30,640
character also passes down the 
torch to Sammy in a lot of ways,

1411
01:12:31,160 --> 01:12:35,320
like one soul to another, like 
passing down this music, this 

1412
01:12:35,320 --> 01:12:38,480
power of music to Sammy. 
To then speak to people, to 

1413
01:12:38,480 --> 01:12:41,920
inspire people to learn more 
about their history, to feel 

1414
01:12:41,920 --> 01:12:45,680
seen, to feel like you have a 
culture before somebody comes in

1415
01:12:46,280 --> 01:12:48,600
and sucks it out of you, which 
is the vampire metaphor, I 

1416
01:12:48,600 --> 01:12:50,560
guess. 
So those are my extra credits. 

1417
01:12:50,560 --> 01:12:52,240
Sorry I stepped on. 
Don't worry, Lindo. 

1418
01:12:52,640 --> 01:12:55,120
Oh, no, that's fine. 
I mean, I for the same reasons. 

1419
01:12:55,120 --> 01:13:00,680
I think especially the the car 
like sequence was, was what I 

1420
01:13:00,680 --> 01:13:03,560
kind of identified and his 
performance really overall. 

1421
01:13:03,560 --> 01:13:07,680
But I also wanted to give my 
extra credit to Michael B Jordan

1422
01:13:08,120 --> 01:13:11,280
in his performances with the 
twins because it was something 

1423
01:13:11,280 --> 01:13:17,520
that I was like really, I guess 
like, not, you know, I, I just 

1424
01:13:17,520 --> 01:13:20,640
wasn't like, I, I thought that I
would have a little bit of like 

1425
01:13:20,640 --> 01:13:23,920
apprehension to seeing CGI twins
on screen. 

1426
01:13:24,000 --> 01:13:25,680
Like, I thought it would just 
put me at a distance and it 

1427
01:13:25,680 --> 01:13:27,240
didn't. 
I actually like really cared 

1428
01:13:27,240 --> 01:13:29,880
about the the brothers. 
And. 

1429
01:13:30,760 --> 01:13:33,240
They're like, really as they're 
as like Michael B Jordan was 

1430
01:13:33,240 --> 01:13:37,480
acting to himself like I cared 
about them in a scene together 

1431
01:13:37,480 --> 01:13:40,600
and it didn't. 
I wasn't like focused on, oh, 

1432
01:13:41,000 --> 01:13:43,720
Michael B Jordan was put into 
the scene or he isn't acting to 

1433
01:13:43,720 --> 01:13:47,000
anything like that kind of thing
that I normally am from like CGI

1434
01:13:47,000 --> 01:13:50,400
twins. 
Yeah, MBJ didn't. 

1435
01:13:50,400 --> 01:13:53,640
I thought he was going to have 
more shirtless work, just a 

1436
01:13:53,720 --> 01:13:56,680
small no, a little bit. 
But I was expecting like a lot 

1437
01:13:56,680 --> 01:13:59,320
of twin shirtless action. 
We didn't get any of that from 

1438
01:13:59,320 --> 01:14:02,560
Michael Fassbender or really 
Pattinson that much as their 

1439
01:14:02,560 --> 01:14:05,000
twin roles and as David and. 
Then I was. 

1440
01:14:05,840 --> 01:14:10,240
Like, but I was expecting for 
for Coogler to let MBJ go for 

1441
01:14:10,240 --> 01:14:14,720
it, but we didn't get too much. 
Last thing, extra credit to to 

1442
01:14:14,720 --> 01:14:18,160
Ryan Coogler, not for just what 
everybody else has been saying 

1443
01:14:18,160 --> 01:14:20,440
in terms of making an original 
movie and making it cinematic 

1444
01:14:20,440 --> 01:14:22,400
and shooting it in IMAX and 
talking about the importance of 

1445
01:14:22,400 --> 01:14:26,320
cinema and doing those amazing. 
Actually those like those film 

1446
01:14:26,320 --> 01:14:30,200
format education lessons that 
he's been doing and, and posting

1447
01:14:30,200 --> 01:14:32,600
on YouTube through Kodak and 
other people which have been 

1448
01:14:32,600 --> 01:14:35,680
amazing to see him like explain 
film format to people who are 

1449
01:14:35,680 --> 01:14:38,160
just like normal moviegoers to 
movie lovers. 

1450
01:14:38,160 --> 01:14:40,680
Like it's really awesome and 
educational and it really is a 

1451
01:14:40,680 --> 01:14:43,960
free master class and and film 
making and how film is 

1452
01:14:43,960 --> 01:14:46,280
important, why it's important to
keep this medium alive in 

1453
01:14:46,280 --> 01:14:50,360
theaters on the big screen. 
So extra credit to all of that. 

1454
01:14:50,360 --> 01:14:52,520
And that's what everybody's been
repeating on film Twitter and 

1455
01:14:52,520 --> 01:14:55,000
and all of her critical circles.
But I want to give extra credit 

1456
01:14:55,000 --> 01:14:58,360
just to the idea of of Ryan 
Coogler continuing to write 

1457
01:14:58,360 --> 01:15:02,600
screenplays about legacy and 
continuing to write screenplays 

1458
01:15:02,600 --> 01:15:07,360
about black characters trying to
come out of this expectation 

1459
01:15:07,360 --> 01:15:11,440
from an audience expectation in 
a studio, expectation of being 

1460
01:15:11,760 --> 01:15:13,680
wallowed in like generational 
trauma. 

1461
01:15:14,040 --> 01:15:17,840
And Ryan Coogler's talked about 
this wanting to pivot from like 

1462
01:15:17,840 --> 01:15:20,920
generational trauma, which is 
real and it exists, but more to 

1463
01:15:20,920 --> 01:15:24,360
like generational wisdom and 
trying to tell more powerful 

1464
01:15:24,360 --> 01:15:29,080
stories that are more like 
inspiring and not optimistic, 

1465
01:15:29,080 --> 01:15:30,680
but inspiring. 
And those are two different 

1466
01:15:30,680 --> 01:15:32,680
things. 
And I have found that to be 

1467
01:15:33,000 --> 01:15:36,520
truly like beautiful, like 
amazing running through all of 

1468
01:15:36,520 --> 01:15:38,400
his movies and especially 
sinners. 

1469
01:15:38,400 --> 01:15:43,400
It's like at the heart of this 
movie and trying to also be 

1470
01:15:43,400 --> 01:15:46,560
being a director who is one of 
the only non white film makers 

1471
01:15:46,560 --> 01:15:49,160
who's given access to make $200 
million movies. 

1472
01:15:49,680 --> 01:15:54,040
Cougar always trying to support 
and shout out other directors 

1473
01:15:54,240 --> 01:15:56,880
who are from like historically 
marginalized positions or 

1474
01:15:56,880 --> 01:15:59,360
identities. 
And recently he did this. 

1475
01:15:59,360 --> 01:16:02,000
I forget what interview it was, 
but he shouted out AV Rockwell's

1476
01:16:02,000 --> 01:16:05,040
1001, which is one of our 
favorite movies from last year, 

1477
01:16:05,640 --> 01:16:07,800
which is an incredible film. 
And you talked to her too, 

1478
01:16:07,840 --> 01:16:09,400
right? 
Yeah, she came on the show and 

1479
01:16:09,560 --> 01:16:12,200
I'm bringing that up because 
that movie a lot, it is very 

1480
01:16:12,200 --> 01:16:15,840
much about pushing back against 
this expectation from really 

1481
01:16:15,840 --> 01:16:19,600
white audiences and and studios 
that profit off this idea of 

1482
01:16:19,600 --> 01:16:23,840
generational trauma and misery. 
And and that movie be more about

1483
01:16:23,840 --> 01:16:27,000
like wisdom that Tiana Taylor's 
characters passing down to her 

1484
01:16:27,000 --> 01:16:29,560
son, which is a complicated 
relationship. 

1485
01:16:29,560 --> 01:16:32,000
But especially by the end of the
film, I don't want to spoil it. 

1486
01:16:32,000 --> 01:16:33,400
It's an amazing movie. 
Watch it. 

1487
01:16:33,960 --> 01:16:36,000
But that's very special. 
It's a very special through 

1488
01:16:36,000 --> 01:16:37,440
line. 
And it's cool that he identified

1489
01:16:37,440 --> 01:16:40,960
that movie because I've really 
seen that theme come across a 

1490
01:16:40,960 --> 01:16:43,720
lot in this past decade, 
especially non white film 

1491
01:16:43,720 --> 01:16:47,280
makers. 
Yeah, no, I, I think 2001 is was

1492
01:16:47,280 --> 01:16:51,920
like really under scene. 
But yeah, like Ryan Coogler, you

1493
01:16:51,920 --> 01:16:54,360
know, obviously comes back to 
the theme that we've been 

1494
01:16:54,360 --> 01:16:56,800
talking about throughout the 
podcast of like, or just just 

1495
01:16:56,800 --> 01:17:02,160
like exploration of like 
capitalism throughout his his 

1496
01:17:02,160 --> 01:17:06,560
movies. 
But is like really in 

1497
01:17:06,560 --> 01:17:13,000
conversation with the idea of 
Hollywood and like films looking

1498
01:17:13,000 --> 01:17:16,800
at stories and in terms of like 
trauma and objectifying Black 

1499
01:17:16,800 --> 01:17:20,160
characters and only focusing on 
like exploitation. 

1500
01:17:20,600 --> 01:17:24,560
And yeah, so I think like 
generational wisdom is the the 

1501
01:17:24,560 --> 01:17:28,080
best way to put it is what 
deserves also like extra credit 

1502
01:17:28,080 --> 01:17:30,160
in the filmmaking where Black 
characters are actually like 

1503
01:17:30,160 --> 01:17:33,680
characters. 
Yeah, So Sinners, that was the 

1504
01:17:33,680 --> 01:17:36,520
extra credits of Ryan Coogler's 
newest film. 

1505
01:17:36,560 --> 01:17:39,440
I hope this movie makes hundreds
of millions of dollars and we 

1506
01:17:39,440 --> 01:17:41,560
can get more movies like it. 
Do we? 

1507
01:17:41,600 --> 01:17:45,640
I will say that Robin song, 
terrifying Robin song. 

1508
01:17:45,680 --> 01:17:49,080
The one that they first sing the
the white vampires. 

1509
01:17:49,080 --> 01:17:50,920
The three of them, and they're 
sitting outside, and Hailey 

1510
01:17:50,920 --> 01:17:52,320
Steinfeld is just watching them.
Yeah. 

1511
01:17:52,520 --> 01:17:54,840
Well, no, no, no. 
Before, when they first 

1512
01:17:54,840 --> 01:17:57,000
introduced themselves, they're 
like, we're musicians too. 

1513
01:17:57,360 --> 01:18:00,200
And they're they creepily. 
Oh yes, yes, yes, yes. 

1514
01:18:01,040 --> 01:18:03,480
I was surprised they let them 
sing that long. 

1515
01:18:03,560 --> 01:18:06,040
I was like these characters, I 
know them pretty well. 

1516
01:18:06,120 --> 01:18:08,840
MB JS twins are not going to 
deal with this much longer. 

1517
01:18:09,000 --> 01:18:11,000
I thought they're going to get 
shot like I thought that's when 

1518
01:18:11,040 --> 01:18:12,720
they were going to realize they 
were vampires. 

1519
01:18:12,720 --> 01:18:14,200
Oh, like they're going to shoot 
the the. 

1520
01:18:14,320 --> 01:18:16,400
Yeah, the vampires, I thought 
they're going to shoot the 

1521
01:18:16,960 --> 01:18:20,000
vampires. 
So, yeah, I mean, we, we, I 

1522
01:18:20,000 --> 01:18:21,640
think we critically talked about
that movie. 

1523
01:18:21,640 --> 01:18:24,760
It's a reaction episode, so I'm 
sure we were all over the place 

1524
01:18:24,760 --> 01:18:28,200
sometimes. 
So I apologize if we were, but I

1525
01:18:28,200 --> 01:18:30,640
do think this is going to be, if
it wasn't being talked about as 

1526
01:18:30,640 --> 01:18:33,200
a masterpiece, I think I might 
say this is a really cool B 

1527
01:18:33,200 --> 01:18:35,120
movie cult classic. 
Yeah, like it feels like an 

1528
01:18:35,120 --> 01:18:37,920
instant cult classic. 
And I I don't mind just saying 

1529
01:18:37,920 --> 01:18:38,520
that. 
I guess that's. 

1530
01:18:38,520 --> 01:18:39,680
Kind of like where I'm at with 
it. 

1531
01:18:39,680 --> 01:18:43,760
Yeah, I really enjoyed it. 
Like with the heightened aspects

1532
01:18:43,760 --> 01:18:46,440
of the horror of it, and also 
like it had something to say, 

1533
01:18:46,840 --> 01:18:49,080
but it I'm not quite at 
masterpiece level either. 

1534
01:18:49,120 --> 01:18:51,520
Yeah, it feels more like an M 
Night Shyamalan experience than 

1535
01:18:51,520 --> 01:18:53,840
anything where I watch one of 
his movies and go, hell yeah, 

1536
01:18:53,840 --> 01:18:55,600
great. 3 1/2 four-star. 
Yeah. 

1537
01:18:55,640 --> 01:18:57,720
Like, this is going to live on 
in my mind for a long time. 

1538
01:18:59,520 --> 01:19:02,360
OK, so next we'll be back with, 
what do you think? 

1539
01:19:02,360 --> 01:19:05,080
Just Patreon right now. 
Yeah, Jerry Maguire. 

1540
01:19:05,160 --> 01:19:08,960
Yes, Jerry Maguire in the 
apartment back-to-back, which is

1541
01:19:08,960 --> 01:19:10,520
really exciting. 
Probably coming out in the next 

1542
01:19:10,520 --> 01:19:12,200
week or so, so watch out for 
that. 

1543
01:19:12,200 --> 01:19:14,440
Don't forget on Patreon right 
now in the description of this 

1544
01:19:14,440 --> 01:19:17,080
episode, you can sign up as a 
free member to get our deeper 

1545
01:19:17,080 --> 01:19:19,760
dive into Ryan Coogler's career 
and B JS career. 

1546
01:19:19,760 --> 01:19:22,280
We rank some of the Creed movies
and Rocky films. 

1547
01:19:22,280 --> 01:19:26,280
I think we had some hot takes on
there about Creed 3, which MBJ 

1548
01:19:26,280 --> 01:19:29,240
directs fantastically. 
Really excited for the future of

1549
01:19:29,240 --> 01:19:32,520
his film making career. 
And you can also check out Doom 

1550
01:19:32,520 --> 01:19:34,400
Part 1 and Florida Projects. 
Yes. 

1551
01:19:34,480 --> 01:19:38,560
And please rate and review us on
Spotify or wherever you listen 

1552
01:19:38,560 --> 01:19:41,120
to your podcast. 
Reviews go a long way. 

1553
01:19:41,960 --> 01:19:45,800
And then also give Trey some 
love on his first solo YouTube 

1554
01:19:45,800 --> 01:19:48,320
video. 
Just a like is fine. 

1555
01:19:48,320 --> 01:19:49,240
You don't have to write 
anything. 

1556
01:19:49,240 --> 01:19:51,240
It's OK. 
I mean, comments are apparently 

1557
01:19:51,240 --> 01:19:53,800
help, but I think you know, it's
fine. 

1558
01:19:53,920 --> 01:19:58,280
I've I've some insecurities 
about it, but it's fine. 

1559
01:19:58,360 --> 01:19:59,800
We're going to get through this 
together. 

1560
01:19:59,800 --> 01:20:02,840
It's a vulnerable thing, so go 
give him some love, OK you. 

1561
01:20:03,160 --> 01:20:04,680
Can't imagine how long that took
to record. 

1562
01:20:04,720 --> 01:20:08,680
OK, alright guys, till next 
time, peace bye.