The. Welcome to the extra credits of
Sean Baker and Mikey Madison's Anora.
I'm Trey and. I'm Kelsey.
So Baker's Anora, this is a bold, ambitious film that I
think reaffirms Baker's status, is one of the most interesting
independent film makers in the world.
Yeah, certainly one of our favorites.
And it also introduces us to Mikey Madison as a legitimate
star. Yes.
And we have three of her here. Today, Yeah.
I mean, she's amazing. To cement that for those of you
watching on YouTube and Nora, one of my favorite movies of the
year. This isn't my favorite Baker
film. I don't think this is like 5
star masterpiece. There's some narrative issues,
some tonal issues for me. But honestly, to a certain
extent, who cares? 2024 has been a little bit of an
up and down year in the in the cinema and this is certainly one
of the most exciting films and tragic films of the year.
Yeah, I I think I'm right there with you.
This is not my favorite movie of the year.
It's not a five star masterpiece because of the some of the kind
of like character holes that we'll talk more about today.
But it certainly is one of the best movies of the year.
And I, I think that I have a pretty strong argument for why
knowing Sean Baker's filmography and I think he does some really
successful things in this movie, that he are his strengths from
his previous movies. And then he tries to do
something that are also strengths of his other movies,
but you can't fit them all into one.
And that's where I come out on Anora.
But you know, Anora is still really up there for me in his
filmography. I feel similar to you.
It's not my favorite of his movies.
Yeah, Florida Project is still number one for me easily, but
Anora is my number two of his. Yeah, so I guess we can talk
about why in just a second. But I do want to say like, we
are Big Sean Baker fans, we've got a huge expectations going
into this film, which was very unfair to the movie.
We saw the trailer, incredible trailer, a lot of buzz coming
out after can because obviously like all the awards of this
movie won and it did deserve those awards and it's doing
really well at the box office right now.
People are talking about as the front runner to win best
picture. Yeah, all those things happen
and Mikey Madison becomes a star who is working with future
auteur, you know, indie to now mainstream film makers.
Like she was in a photo with Luca Guadagnino this morning.
What if that happens? Fantastic.
I'm here for it. Oh my God, I could totally see
her in any of his movies. I'm thinking of Suspiria.
But really, like anything could. Work yes, that would be amazing.
So I'm I'm down for the success of this movie.
It deserves it it's very very good.
It's just that there are some movies you watch where you know,
you're watching a film that has a ceiling of like 4 stars to use
letterbox ratings for a second. You know, like we just watched
Conclave recently. We did an episode on that.
We also did one on Gladiator 2. Those are both movies that have
ceilings to me of 3 1/2 to four stars with floors of like three
stars, you know what I mean? And like that is a good.
Middle, yeah. Yeah, it's a good place to be.
It's like good adult dramas that are exciting entertainment
spectacles to that that can never really feel like they're
going to be bad, but they never really feel like they're going
to be great. Yeah.
Verse Anora, which is like very clear in the trailer.
You're like, this is going to be at the very least good.
Yeah. And it could be, you know, like
how people are talking about it, a masterpiece.
Yeah, and I want to get into why.
It does not like 5 star ceiling. Yeah, so let's talk about Sean
Baker for a second, because some of the listeners or watchers
that out there might not know Baker's filmography totally.
He has carved out a unique niche in contemporary cinema.
He tells deeply empathetic humanist stories about usually
people in survivor positions, like where they have to survive
an exploitative economy. And they can also come from
marginalized backgrounds. They could come from, they could
be put in positions of Labor that have a lot of stereotypes
or stigmas attached to them. And so he's done this in
multiple different frameworks, right?
He's done grounded social realist films like Take Out.
He's done this in more elevated stories that are still tragic
like Tangerine. He's done this perfectly in
something like The Florida Project or even one of my
favorite Starlet, which might be my second favorite movie of his,
which is very similar to Enora in terms of the character
trajectory or arc. Yeah, that's true.
I think Enora blends some tangerine elements and some
starlet elements pretty well actually, if you're a Baker fan.
So he's done this a lot. I think his most riskiest
project that didn't totally work for me though is still very
ambitious and interesting nonetheless, is Red Rocket,
which came out a few years ago with the Simon Rex performance,
which is excellent. So he has been inspired by some
of the great indie social realist directors like people
like Scorsese and Spike Lee and you know, more indie than that,
like Cassavetes or somebody like Ken Loach or Ozu like.
So he has really big inspirations.
He keeps his own sensibilities. He has his own vision.
I think he's a little bit funnier than all those directors
that I just named, maybe except Spike Lee.
I think they have a similar sense of humor.
And with the Nora, interestingly, I think he was
able to keep those sensibilities while going a little bit more
mainstream because each one of his movies throughout his career
is like increased scale quite a bit.
And he's now joining a group of independent film makers that
have now gone more mainstream. That isn't like this rarefied
tier, like a Luca Guadagnino for.
Example Luca is a great example with Challengers.
Like, I think, you know, when Challengers came out and that
was such a fun episode to record.
And that was a huge, you know, success in my mind, partly
because of the performances. Yes, a really fun movie, but
the. Score.
The cinematography, yeah, a lot of it is really extra and it
knows that tone very well. Yeah, the Mike Feist, the
Zendaya, the, like, Josh O'Connor of it all, too.
But I feel like it didn't capture some of the kind of
weightier, more gruesome, like moments of a bigger splash that
I love. Sure.
In this, like in these relationships between the
characters. Yeah.
And so we talked a lot about that on our Challengers episode.
But you're right, like I feel like Sean Baker is also kind of
in that lane of a indie filmmaker who's now becoming
more mainstream. And maybe that's kind of the
reaction we're having to like, it reminds you of like your
ghost too, like kind of his trajectory.
Like these are, you know, perfect parallels, but it does
remind me of like people knowing Baker, Oregon, knowing your
ghost specifically here, like from the the lobster and then,
you know, the favorite, but then wider audiences maybe knowing
your ghost's work, like attached to his film or his name attached
to his films, like from poor things and have gaining a wider
audience. Of course, that comes with like
the awards and the Emma Stone as a creative partner.
But I think like the same thing is happening with a Nora with us
here in that maybe Florida project was something that I
love more, maybe like people have seen more so because it was
on Netflix. Interesting.
Yeah, it was recently streaming on Netflix.
Yeah. But people still I think maybe
connected to like a Willem Dafoe character.
I think that's right, you know, and where like the lobster,
maybe people have connected that more to like Colin Farrell, you
know, you know, performance. And then like now with Nora, I
do think just with the the kind of like buzz of it all, Sean
Baker might be more widely known as a filmmaker attached to his
work and more people might be seated for his like his future
films, which is really exciting. And so even though in Nora
didn't totally land or didn't I think showcase all of Sean
Baker's strength tonally that he does well in his like previous
movies, I still am really excited that this movie is
getting him so much attention. Yeah.
Well, we talked about this with Yorgos on Poor Things last year.
We talked about this with Luca on Challengers this year, which
is that I'm really excited by the bigness of Poor Things and
Challengers and in Nora. The Commercial Appeal of these
movies is very exciting, how they can speak to so many
different audiences. And I don't think in Nora is
going to do as well as something like Poor Things or Challengers
financially, but it should be like pretty critically
successful. If it's not Mikey Madison
winning an Oscar, this might win best picture, which will do a
lot for it in terms of more people streaming it at home.
And so that'll be interesting. But I think you're touching on
something that I've talked about with Wes Anderson too, when he
did Grand Budapest or like after Grand Budapest, maybe around the
kind of post Rushmore, let's say era of West Anderson's career.
There is a little bit of like, I'm going to sacrifice some of
my more raw themes for these more conventional commercial
standards while still maybe holding like a higher bar to
those commercial standards. So I'm still making something
commercially that's elevating expectations for a mainstream
audience, but I am sacrificing a little bit of my own
sensibilities and maybe more tragic interests that are
usually something you can find in more NDR house films to hit
more theaters, you know? Yeah, and maybe, you know, I'm,
I'm interested like maybe because we go into these movies
knowing the film makers interests and their filmography
and like things that they return to over and over again, you see
where they're pulling punches. And so I think that's more clear
in the Nora because I'm familiar with Sean Baker's previous work.
Yes, and so in saying that, I still think of Nora is pretty
tragic, right. Like this isn't like a just a
good time at the movies. Like it is going to be funny.
It is going to be elevated sometimes it's going to be
sometimes even feels like it's going to lean into somewhere
surreal or like Tarantino esque or or go maybe more PTA esque.
But it tries to blend both of those tones, which we'll talk
about a little bit later. And I don't think it totally
does that, but it comes very close.
And so the last five minutes of this movie does something that
is not as tragic as far as you think it's going to go in terms
of like, it being this like, I don't know, Goodfellas esque
ending or Uncut Gems esque ending.
But it does go somewhere that is depressing and that is, you
know, true to Shawn Baker's sensibilities.
But again, I'm not sure the movie really deserves the ending
it had, and we'll get to that. So let's talk about quickly,
Mikey Madison's performance as Anora, because I think this is
going to be the biggest appeal for a lot of people going into
this movie is like, who is this young, up and coming actor?
I saw them in Scream, maybe Scream 5, I believe, and I saw
them possibly in Quentin Tarantino's Once Upon a Time in
Hollywood. But can they lead a movie like
this that is trying to do a lot right?
Like they're trying to make Mikey Madison do a young Sharon
Stone from Casino as Ginger meets young Julia Roberts in
Pretty Woman. Can she nail that tonal balance?
And I would say that she actually does more than the
movie does. Like the movie actually doesn't
give her great characterization. I think it's actually a pretty
thin character, in my opinion. But what she does with her
expressions, her eyes, the way she reads a room, reads people
when they're talking to her, her reactionary vibe, I think she's
really funny, really sad and really fascinating.
And a lot of that credit goes to Madison and not as much the
writing. So I want to shout her out right
at the top here before being hit on spoilers because I think she
is, you know, you should go see this movie just to see what
she's up to in this film. Definitely, yeah.
And Sean Baker saw her and scream and immediately right
like called. I think the I think that night.
His agent or someone to the call there?
You know Maggie Madison's agent. Because he usually cast first
time actors, Yeah, in the leads of a lot of his movies.
And he was like, maybe I'll just find somebody's only done a few
roles at this stage in their career.
Yeah. And that was really smart.
Yeah, I mean, no, she's great, I think.
You know, I do also want to note though, like Sean Baker, I'm
assuming even within the writing, like had some pieces in
directing her of the more subtle moments of her kind of like
questioning Vanya or, you know, there there are definitely like
pieces that I'm sure aren't like necessarily written dialogue,
but are, you know, things that Mikey Madison and Shaw Baker
work together with. But I would agree with you,
like, for holistically, I do think Mikey Madison is bringing
kind of more sad elements, like behind her eyes, right?
Of like, I kind of, you know, am having fun right now.
But also like, should I be protecting myself right now?
Like she's able to bring that kind of right, like
self-awareness to her character. She forces the audience to
question how self aware is this character, Yeah.
And then also humanizes her at the same time that writing does
not do that as much for her, but the writing doesn't.
Also, it's not bad writing, right?
It's just underdeveloped writing to me.
And again, we'll get into spoilers in a second where
you're not thinking the movies judging her by any means, but it
does ultimately paint her as like Naive, which is sort of
Fair because she is like a young 20 something in a position where
she doesn't actually have much power.
And but the movie almost takes away her agency when we don't
know enough about her character, so therefore don't know how self
aware she is in the film at any given time.
And so Mikey Madison delivers enough nuanced, subtle moments
when people are talking to her when they're getting a shot of
her, like taking her makeup off in the mirror where you're
thinking, OK, what how aware is this character of what's
happening with Vanya? What's happening with his
parents or these three stooges? She has to go across New York
with or with Igor, that character and and what happens
there? Because that actor does a very
good job. He's in his own movie.
He's like in his own romantic movie.
And I don't think Gnora is in the same film as him, but it is
still like a really interesting character.
So, you know, this is this is the Baker project.
He tries to add dark comedy and elevated fantasy to social
realism. He tries to reveal the American
dream as sort of a con, right, a nightmarish con.
And I do think he successfully does that here.
I I think so. And I think there's a lot of
like socio economic nuance in this movie.
I think there's a lot of destigmatizing sex work and
dancing and like what a Norris character does and like all of
her Co workers at the club. I think the movie does a good
job with those things. It just never totally leans into
what direction it wants to do. Yeah.
And then ultimately leaves me flat at the ending, but not the
intended flat that you're supposed to feel emotionally at
the end. Yeah, I almost feel like
intellectually flat at the end of the.
Film, yeah, I think that's what it is.
I think a lot of his other movies he does a a better job,
like playing with the tones at the right moment.
And it does feel like we're, we're watching like 3 different
movies here and it doesn't totally shake out to have a
catharsis or something that feels like, it's like honoring
like a Nora's character. Like you think of like a Haley
in Florida project. You feel like, you know, there
is a, a, a really like life in Haley as a character.
And I think that's like what you're speaking to in terms of
the flatness of a Nora's character, which we'll get into
in a second. Because I think it's almost like
built into the the suspense of the plot and how it's written
that actually then undercuts a Nora's character.
The big reveal that maybe she never had control of this
situation in the 1st place. Yeah.
And how she reacts to that, you're kind of like, wait, I
thought you were this character. Now you're this character.
Yeah. So yeah, we're going to get into
that. All right, before we jump in, I
want to quickly direct our listeners or watchers at home on
YouTube to the description of this episode.
If you're listening to this on your podcast platform, just go
to the show notes. If you're listening to this on
YouTube, hit the description of this episode where you'll find a
link to our Patreon. And if you sign up as a free
member right now, you'll have access to our Sean Baker's The
Florida Project deep dive, which is a 2 1/2 three hour deep dive
of me talking about why that's one of my favorite movies of the
decade. And then also Kelsey
surprisingly falling in love with it as much as me, which is
really nice on that episode. And talking about the the
tragedy that is Mooney's Cinderella fairy tale story that
ends up being a tragedy at the very end.
Yeah. And I mean we talk about his
other movies as well. And like we, I don't think we'd
like spoiled things or we would let people know, but we talked
about how he is so good at showing like the tragedy as a
result of kind of what you were talking about the circumstances
and making the environment a character in his movies.
To make it not like this melodrama that we normally see
in stories where a character is like living in poverty and is
able to tell a story that doesn't feel like from a damage
centered lens. And so we really go into that on
the Florida project because we kind of like live watch the
movie too. But he's so good.
At humanizing people who are usually left to be stereotypes
in mainstream cinema or even Indy cinema to a certain extent.
So yeah, that episode for right now is free on Patreon.
And also if you're a Gladiator fan, the Gladiator Deep Dive on
Patreon is free for free members right now too because of
Gladiator 2 coming out, which is a very good movie.
OK, so Anora spoilers, go see this movie in theaters if you
can or stream it on streamers in the next few weeks.
I'm sure it'll be out there. So Anora tells the story of
Annie Annie, right? I think so.
I was going to call her Anora. Anora, a 23 year old Russian
American dancer living in Brooklyn.
And as in many of Baker's films, as you put it just a second ago,
the environment quickly becomes a character.
The environment of her work life, the environment of her,
you know, taking the subway back after a long night, working back
to her home, having like, seeing a roommate.
There's sort of a life that in the in the periphery.
Like there's a Norah's life is in the periphery of this movie.
Yeah. Which is a good way to put it.
Like, why? Why?
I was kind of frustrated at the end of the film, which is what,
like, it's called a Nora. And I do think there's like a
subtextual reason for that, which is like, her job does not
afford her, like her economic circumstances to do not afford
her to have characterization in this narrative.
Like a life, like an identity. Right.
Yeah. She's sleeping during the day,
going to work. Yeah.
I don't think we see enough of this first act to really demand
that kind of reflection or maybe forgiving the narrative for not
letting us know who she is, more considering what they the movie
puts her through. So we're going to get into that.
But we get to see a little bit of her transactional reality,
like her relationships in the day-to-day life.
And so backing up a little bit, the opening sequence of this
movie is pretty spectacular. We see that the film's credits
are placed right next to a Nora's face as she's giving a
lap dance. And we get this Bakerism is what
I'm going to call it, which is like the score drop of this
movie, which is this contradictory club music about
you're going to have the best night of your life or something
like that. And I've never, I don't think
I've ever heard this song. But it did a really good job of
effectively getting across like what Scorsese does in a lot of
his movies or a Spike Lee does in a lot of his movies, which is
using a, a song that will speak to the narrative's tension.
And it reminded me a little bit of like Mean Streets, you know,
in terms of. Playing with.
Music. In that opening.
In that way, in terms of like you're about to watch, like a
tragic fall of a character. Yeah.
I mean, he does play with that in, you know, Florida Project
with Celebration. That's right.
And then bringing it back at the end with an instrumental version
of Celebration with a a more kind of like darker undertone of
that song that we have such a big cultural relationship to.
And same with like Bye Bye Bye and Red Rocket.
Oh, I love that. One, yeah, that's really, I
think we watched out of the theatre and I was like, I forgot
the opening. I didn't like recognize the
song, I guess. And that's something that I do
expect from a a bigger film. You're right.
Yeah, so basically in Nora's life takes a dramatic turn when
she meets Yvonne or Vanya. And this character is a
reckless, entitled manchild, I guess is the best way to put it,
of a Russian oligarch family. And he's played with a hilarious
carefree energy by Mark Edelstein is the actor, first
time feature, I believe, which is incredible.
And he basically plays like a Russian Richie Rich, for those
of you who've seen that Mcculkin film.
And I loved the character in as far as him being just like so
absurdly free and and privileged and ignorant and like Naive and
like the way they portray him is like, not quite dangerous.
So you don't really feel like a Nora's life is in danger until
like halfway into the movie? But he's so like, careless with
her life. But he's so careless with her
that you're thinking that, OK, anything can happen to her,
especially because, like when they go to Vegas together, for
example, you're thinking, is this the first time he's been to
Vegas with someone in a Nora's position?
Has he done this before? Is what you're thinking at
certain points? And so the movie does a really
good job. And so does the performance of,
like, never letting you settle into something that'll just play
as a tragic comedy. You're kind of wondering, is
this going to turn into a tragic drama, which the movie does sort
of do in the last five minutes of the film.
But basically, Vanya offers a Nora $15,000 to spend a week
with him. Or I think they go back and
forth on that number, which is a funny shout out to Pretty Woman.
And about halfway into this film, that transaction escalates
into this like fantastical, comedic, tragic whirlwind of
tones where you have two carat, these two lead characters
eloping in a Vegas Chapel. And then we go into this
unpredictable territory where his family sends these like, 3
stooges, but really like our gangsters who are who Baker
tries to humanize and like, put them in positions where like,
they don't even want to be there in the first place.
Yeah, they're like doing their job.
They have to leave their family functions.
Yeah. Yeah, their job is to try to
keep Vanya at home while you're having a Nora telling them to
get out of, you know, her house now that she's married to Vanya.
And they kind of have to keep them there, right?
That's their goal. And we're starting to notice
halfway into the film, like, oh, isn't Nora like, is this
character self aware of the power dynamic with Vanya?
How much is she kind of pre planned?
Like what she's going to do with this, like new marriage and
potentially like her access to the wealth that he has?
Because really what she finds most appealing about Vanya, I
think is his freedom or his carelessness.
But I think that would be maybe too unfair to the character.
It's more like his honestly, just like truly his freedom to
do with what he pleases. And that is like really
appealing to her. And so like when he proposes to
her in bed in Vegas, there's a moment where you're going like,
and the character does this too. Like, I don't know if I believe
you. And you're thinking like Nora,
like how self aware is she even being in this moment?
Like, is she like playing? Is she trying to get something
out of this character? And it's still not super clear.
And it's not clear right up until really the big reveal
about halfway into this movie that Vanya is using her to stay
in the country and not. Just to avoid going to like work
for his father's family. Very successful type of family.
Yes and so like while Nora has been like objectified throughout
the film by Vanya or like sexualized by by him and like,
and you're kind of wondering how much does he actually care about
her? You really realize that he is
truly looking at her as like a transactional way into the
country and to to get away from his family so or just.
Like have fun too, because he ultimately knows that it's not
going to be something that his family will approve of or that
will be long lasting. Right.
So the movie is really tonally jumpy, like 2 acts and we're
blending romantic screwball energy with the escapist fantasy
energy with the serious dramatic thriller energy until we really
get to the point where Vanya escapes and then it turns into
like four people going around Brooklyn or New York City
looking for this drunk Russian old dark song.
Very tangerine energy. So what are you feeling at this
point in the film? Because I because I was
confused. I was conflicted and confused.
I was enjoying my experience, but I was thinking I don't know
if I totally love where this movie is leading me.
Sure. Yeah, I think so.
At this point. I think you're right.
Like we have those different movies going in.
I had a lot of fun in the sequence where they do get
married. And I know like this isn't going
to last somehow or, you know, like I'm suspicious.
But I'm. I'm having a fun time in this
like alternate reality of like the wealth that Vanya has and
like the the fun that that these two characters are having
together. And you're right, like I am
wondering then also like for Anora, you know, how aware is
she of the kind of transaction that that's happening here?
Of course, like Sean Baker needs to keep us on the audience on
the kind of unknowing end of how sincere are Vanya's intentions
in saying, like, I let's get married.
How much is Anora aware of him? Basically like wanting to marry
her for whatever reason. There is like there are some
pieces of her character that you feel like maybe she's naive and
just you know, it's going to like go for this.
Maybe she's in love, right? We should definitely position
positions us as in that way as we go farther into this.
Or maybe she's suspicious and like I think those questions
which I are driving tension of the first part of the movie then
become so flattened in this comedy piece of the movie.
Which is still fun. Which is still a lot of fun.
It's actually my favorite sequence of the movie when her
and the three, the three guys are like going around looking
for Vanya. But it becomes flattened in that
her character then becomes this, this I guess like character
who's saying like, I love Vanya. Vanya loves me, I'm his wife.
You all don't know what you're talking about.
And he we just need to find him because once I find him, like
everything will be fine and and we'll be able to work it out
because we love each other. Of course, the the kind of like
that wears off and you see her coming to a realization.
Maybe you know the the characters were right in saying
like especially, especially Toros, who is the the main guy
who is who's working for like the family, right?
Yeah, he's in a lot of big. Movies guy?
Yeah, his name. His name is Karen Karagulian, I
apologize if I did not pronounce that correctly, but he's
excellent. He's so great and he's in
Tangerine. He's also the motel manager in
Florida Project. Yeah.
Oh, yeah, yeah. Because Willem Dafoe's the the
manager. But yeah, he's so good.
And when he tells Enora, like, you don't know this guy, he is
like the spoiled brat and he, he takes everything for granted.
Like you don't know what you're talking about.
That, that kind of tension, that Nora kind of it's, it's
unraveling as they're looking for him.
And finally, when we, we have that moment, you know, going
into meeting the parents, you're, you're thinking is
Vanya, because he's like offline right now, He's hungover.
He can't talk. Is him not saying anything
because he's hungover? Is it because he actually
doesn't love her? That moment to to kind of end
how it ends with such kind of a a let down, which is what Sean
Baker is going for in a realistic way.
Yeah, he's trying to be true to. People's actual lives.
Actually honoring a Norris character, yes, that's the
problem with it. So I think like to answer your
question, at that moment of the film when we're going into this
really fun, like looking for Vanya, you know, all these
things happened during like that time of getting the car towed in
New York City. Like this funny like bit about
parking it just in New York, the throw up scene, which is awful.
It's so. Oh my God.
Yeah. And then, you know, or then like
just sitting at the diner, like kind of like deflated right?
Then walking across the boardwalk.
But they also use it. They also use these moments to
build up Igor's movie within this movie, which is Igor's like
going through this. Hey, I'm just like a hired gun,
but not even a gun. I'm just like a hired dude to
try to keep Anora at this house or in the van or whatever.
And then you realize, like, oh, he lives with his grandmother.
He's actually seems kind of sweet, even though he has all
these tools, like to smash up a candy shop or whatever.
And there are moments in the second act that are supposed to
be like 3 Stooges comedy that there is this kind of like Igor
has his own romantic movie going on.
Anora is not aware of this movie.
He's in his own film, right? And that makes it a little bit
like a part of the problems that you're talking about, which is
that basically a Nora is just like a thinly written character.
And I think that you can use the justification of her sleeping
during the day and her at her work at at night or in the AM as
a reason for like not knowing more about her character.
But this is like a two hour, 15 to 20 minute movie where we are
doing a lot of bits, you know, and they're funny bits, like
when the lead henchman is at the synagogue or church and he's
like having to text while, yeah, he's like in the middle of the
ceremony. It's really, it's really funny.
This moment in the movie when he has to leave the baptism, he's
like, sorry everyone, yeah, gotta go.
It's hilarious. I just wish so much of this
movie didn't feel like a bunch of bits where Anora was kind of
like along the ride. Yeah.
And I wish I knew more about the movies titular character that it
literally named itself. Like it named itself Nora.
And it just feels like I don't like I want to know the
character more. And Mikey Madison is doing a lot
to express how she feels the character might be feeling.
The movie actually never gives us like the Sharon Stone ginger
from casino character study that I thought this movie was going
to be. And maybe it is a problem with
my expectation. So if you think it did do
everything right, you know, listeners or people watching at
home, I totally understand why. It's still a very good movie in
my opinion. But like, I was expecting this
to be a subversion of Julia Roberts is Pretty Woman delving
deeper into what Scorsese gave us with a Sharon Stone figure
who was interestingly and similarly exploited by that
Robert De Niro character in Casino.
And we see her kind of like tragic journey in that film.
And she's painted as the subversive antagonist in that
movie. But really, she's probably the
most sympathetic figure in Casino until the last like 25
minutes with the kids stuff and all that.
But that is the the direction I thought they were going to go
into and they they never fully go there.
No, Yeah, well, I had a reaction when you're like, maybe I had
too high expectations, but I actually think that it's a, it
is a flaw in the writing for me, like.
And it's, and it's not in the case of like I, I want this
movie to be another movie. The movie is saying this is what
it's going to be. And then it takes you somewhere
else, and then takes you somewhere else.
I agree. Yeah.
I think for me, like I while I understand like, like you, why
people might really like this movie because it feels kind of
like, you know, it could be an enjoyable 3 different movies in
a movie, right? Like we have all these different
tonal shifts that feel like a journey.
But I think you're right in that the movie is supposed to be
about Inora. We don't learn about her like we
would in his movies, like Starlet and or like even in
Tangerine where we have this like fast-paced, literally like
looking for someone all night in the thought of the movie.
And you learn so much about the characters and like the
emotional relationships, right? And so I think here, like the
reason actually that Sean Baker had to cut us off from the
characterization of Mikey Madison's character of Anora is
because you have to have the audience and not knowing exactly
what's going to happen at the end of this, is she going to get
justice? Is she going to stay in this
marriage? We have to not understand
totally what she's thinking or maybe like how self aware she is
because otherwise than that like takes away the kind of big drop
or surprise. And that's a complicated conceit
for a character. And I just don't personally
think that that is that interesting because of how he
decides to take it in a direction at the end, which is
more Sean Baker. So like.
So yeah, I I agree. I think that basically like we
are wondering and are questioning like how self aware
is Inora during this these like 2 third, first thirds of the
movie and then we realize that, OK, well can we can we jump to
like the family? Sure.
Yeah, yeah. So then once the family comes
into the picture and Vanya, right, is kind of like waking up
a little bit from his hangover. At the courthouse.
Right. Well, on the plane, right, he
basically, it becomes clear to Inora that Vanya just did this
carelessly, you know, got married carelessly and also
admits to his parents, right? That like, this was not that
serious. It's kind of like degrading
towards her. And she has the realization
that, oh, he didn't love me like I loved him.
And I was just completely, you know, like, not even considered
as a person. And so in order to have that
drop that Sean Baker wanted, which was supposed to be the
kind of the emotional shift in the movie, you have to be
unaware of what Anora totally thinks.
Besides this idea of maybe her like, slowly being suspicious of
Vanya. But that I think is like, not
totally. It's not even like not honoring
her character. It's like not being like fair to
her character, giving her agency.
I love the Sharon's stone like ginger comparison cause ginger
like in that transaction with Robert De Niro is so upfront and
same with Julia Roberts and Richard Gerelike is very upfront
about like, I know like basically like what's happening
here. And you feel like that, like
that character is a character, right?
And Nora, you feel like she might be like a naive right,
like like person. I don't think that's really
like, I don't, I think that's what Shawn Baker's totally going
for. And not that I'm judging her of
like, well, you know, it's not like that as an audience.
And I don't even think. Yeah, the movie is not doing
that. Yeah, but it but it doesn't work
out to to have that drop or that reveal because then I'm like,
Oh, well, I think that I I think that Anora would be kind of more
aware. Based on who we knew in the
first act where she's. Like she knows how to take care
of her. She's arguing for herself as
she's eating dinner with her Co workers like and the boss is
telling her to go back out there and she's like no like that kind
of energy from her is continued throughout the film in terms of
her speaking up for herself. But there is a little bit of
like ownership and an agency and self-awareness in the first act
with her character that the movie can't have her have in
order to have these Vegas sequences in order to have these
like going around New York City looking for Vanya in order to
have this annulment happen. Or the final conversation where
she kind of where she does get the cathartic yelling at the
parents because they raised a loser.
But it's not enough based on what we know about the character
in the first act. Like I don't believe that Anora
would have taken all night to have this big blow up.
Yeah. And what we learned about her in
the first part, yeah. Yeah.
So it was like, to me, it's less that they used it.
I mean, it's a part of it. Like that the movie necessitates
a thinly written character for the tension to be felt by the
audience. Like I think that is a part of
it, but I think the reason what this movie struggles for me to
be like just a four-star film, which is totally fine.
Again, to use letterbox language, I apologize.
Is that it it sacrifices the interiority of Anora or puts it
a lot of the the weight on the shoulders of Mikey Madison to do
that, to express the interiority through subtle moments.
But it sacrifices a lot of the characterization that we want,
considering what the first act gives us or what we honestly
what we're used to, but also what we deserve.
I think based on the first act of the movie to then play in
this multi toned narrative which it wants to be like this.
Not only what we deserve, what a Nora deserves.
That's right. And it wants to play in like
this multi toned narrative where it's like grounded realism.
It's got elevated absurdity. It wants to both be APTA movie
and a Quentin Tarantino film, which is an incredibly ambitious
thing to try to shoot for. I don't think it's ever been
successfully done. Yeah.
And maybe he's the one who's come closest to it in recent
years as a Gen. X filmmaker himself, who who
explicitly has said that he is inspired by Paul Thomas Anderson
and Quentin Tarantino of people that are his peers, you know, of
his generation. And so we never get the kind of
radical ending of Inglorious Basterds that the movie almost
provokes the audience to want. We almost want a shootout
sequence of this Anora against the Russian oligarchs.
That is Total would be totally condescending to the very real
tragic character. Such I think a John Wick ending
is going to happen, but. No, but.
But I think it is like. You mentioned Kill Bill when we
were watching. It Yeah.
Well, I think it's fair to be like, if you're going to
introduce us to a character who like really is kind of like self
advocating and really holds her own, it doesn't feel like kind
of within the heightened reality that you've given us in this
like search party sequence in this heightened comedy.
It doesn't feel like it is satisfying or her character has
gotten like justice at the end of the movie.
And I know that's where Shawn Baker's going.
I get that. But you're playing in that kind
of like Tarantino heightened reality that it's like, why not
just do it? Like, why not play with that?
For me, I know that's like expecting a different that is
actually expecting a different movie, but I think like.
But also pandering to like, the very real people that Anora's
representing in terms of like people who are like in the
outskirts of culture, who like pop culture and cinema and
mainstream movies especially, have like created stereotypes
and have perpetuated those things.
Yeah, so I'm it's not that I'm like totally arguing for that.
I'm just arguing for like or maybe expecting based off of the
movie. I've been shown at this point
some sort of like satisfaction beyond saying your kids a loser.
Agreed. There needs to be a little
something because of what you said.
If the cost of Anora is like kind of agency like throughout
this movie. And so then also like the I love
that you brought up like PTA that it's like kind of floating.
The vibe of this movie is floating in the middle of the
Tarantino PTA, obviously not quite as heightened as like a
Tarantino, but but with PTA, where PTA is so good at like,
you know, driving the car like very fast into a kind of a
heightened situation that still feels like realistic or like.
Grounded me. Or like, you know, the tragic
for a character or like really like heightened, like found
family for a character, right? He's so good at creating a world
like completely. And part of that is so much that
he is great at creating like these really complex characters.
And so if who are going to? Backgrounds and like there is
depth to their. Characters and.
We know about their personality and who they're friends with a
little bit more. Like think Boogie Nights or
think liquorish pizza. Yeah.
Like, and so I think that Sean Baker is like kind of like
floating between these two kind of like heightened realities and
then doesn't do that piece, which Enora is lacking.
Is that kind of like understanding or depth to her
character. Then that ending feels
unsatisfying to me at least, even though I really, you know,
enjoyed the movie. It's just that like that, that
ending where she just says, like, your son's a loser doesn't
feel enough. It doesn't feel like it honors
her character enough, right? I, I get where like Sean Baker's
trying to go in that, especially when the mom is talking to her
and, you know, Anora's like, you think it's gonna be that moment.
Like Anora says, I'm gonna get a lawyer.
I'm gonna, like, take you for everything.
I grabbed your your arm. I was like, let's go.
Like. And, and again, Shawn Baker,
being the humanist director he is, again doesn't want to
condescend. In fact, I would say he probably
thinks movies like Pretty Women are problematic, even if this
movie's deeply inspired by it because of what it.
The unrealistic turn it takes at the end.
Yes, it lets it lets audiences be entertained by something that
in our reality is actually much more tragic.
And I do think he wanted to actually give us something that
is more true to somebody who would be in an enormous
position, which is actually, this is going to be an American
dream for someone who is the wealthy person.
And then it's going to be an American nightmare for someone
else who actually doesn't have access to those kinds of
resources. Yeah, I think you know it.
It obviously is not the, the wrong move to, like, do that in
terms of, like Sean Baker, what he wants to do with his movies
and having the mom say as a response, Oh, you think that
you're gonna get a lawyer, number one?
Yeah. Like, how are you gonna afford
that? And #2 Like, not only do we have
economic resources, like, we have enough power to ruin your
future. Like to make sure that you
basically like. And friends and family, too.
Yeah, yeah. And it felt.
Like she was talking to the audience, too.
Like, yeah, oh, you thought you were gonna get this?
Like you're not gonna get it. Yeah, but the movie again
doesn't. Feel like it.
It deserves that. If Anor, yeah, but again, that's
fine if Anora were then characterized with more depth as
we as we go into this. That's all it is, I think.
Yeah. And maybe a little bit less the
screwball energy in the second act, even though it's a really
fun act. And I wish there was ATV show of
those three guys, like driving around New York City looking for
rich sons of oligarchs, like oligarch families.
Like, that's pretty awesome. But yeah, it doesn't totally
lean into either side well enough.
Right, I guess how I feel too. And so and I think the
characterization is a huge part of it, but also the tonal
imbalance is a huge part of it. So while I appreciate that there
isn't some kind of false triumph, if you will, at the end
of the movie, and we do have this like, brutal reality check
of the closing car sequence between Igor and Anora.
And that through line really coming clear about the American
Dream being this ultimate con, which is certainly something
that Baker's been doing throughout his entire
filmography. I'm still like just like you
really conflicted about the movie as a whole and if it even
deserves the tragic final 5 minutes, which I think are
distressing, beautiful, poignant and really like great acting and
and a great composition in terms of how the car shot to like a
great 5 minutes. A truly cinematic 5 minutes the
the end of this movie that again, I don't think the movie
deserves space. Yeah, It didn't feel like the
movie, like Ananora's characterization built up to
that moment enough for it, again to like, be something that her
character. Yeah, Yeah.
I just think the movie doesn't like, deserve that kind of like
realness at the end that, for example, his other movies might
like. And I think that has to do with
his other movies being strong character movies.
Like we're observing different elements of the character's life
and that that piece is like taken out or like cut out
because of the comedic heightened middle that you're
talking. And this is what we were saying
at the top, which is like, you do have to sacrifice some of
your sensibilities or your own. And what Baker's so good at,
which is character studies about people who are in the margins of
society or have been, you know, portrayed in that way.
And he did have to sacrifice some of his, like, political
interests and social interests and sacrifice the, the Inora
character to make something that he felt like was more
commercial. So I, I bet he thinks, and
people who give this movie like 5 stars and love it and think
it's a masterpiece. I bet people who are in love
with this film and the makers of it feel like the last, the final
5 minutes actually does subvert the audience expectations, does
provoke the audience and maybe even indict us about what we
want. I just wish it gave us a little
bit less of what we keep talking about, which are still fun beats
because this is such a wonderful director and he's assembled such
a wonderful team of like being in Vegas or of driving around
New York City. Yeah.
Then we need a little bit more of like of.
Anora. Yes, of a Nora feeling to the
audience, like as she's written, like a naive character.
That's the only piece that I felt like was off and really
wasn't something that that I've seen really in Sean Baker's
previous films. Yeah, like taking almost
accidentally taking agency away from a character to achieve some
kind of like, commercial tension.
Or like surprise at the end. Yes, surprise at the end.
So OK, let's get to our extra credits.
OK, so I think Mikey Madison obviously deserves.
She's amazing. Yeah, I think we've said.
She's in a Guadagnino movie. I mean, I can't wait.
Like, in two or three years, whatever he's got cooking, we'll
be there for it opening night. Yeah.
I mean, she already said recently, like, somebody asked
her the question already, like, how many phone calls have you
gotten to star in what movies? And she said none.
Wow. But she also said she tells her
agents and publicists, which like I believe to only get back
to her about certain screenplays or directors that are interested
in working with her if they actually match her interest.
And if her interests are like Sean Baker, then I'm assuming
she's got some pretty incredible taste and she's not willing to
just like be the next superhero in a Marvel movie, you know.
So I'm really excited for her career.
It's going to be it's going to be a very fun one.
I do think she already has kind of entered so fast into that
Florence Pews and Daya, you know, maybe she'll be in tune 3.
I don't know that Dune verse of actors.
I guess Denise already assembled all of the great late 20s, early
30s actors. My extra credit is going to go
to the Three Stooges because I feel like I we haven't done a
good enough job talking about the comedy of this film because
we were conflicted and frustrated about what the movie
was doing tonally or with the the lead character.
But you're a Borisov as Igor is very good.
I mentioned a few times that he is the kind of subplot, the
major subplot of this movie, which is that he is slowly
falling in love with this person he's been hired to watch right
throughout the film. And as he watches Anora, I think
he sees that they're similar, right?
They are in worlds where their realities are purely
transactional, their relationships are transactional,
and the power dynamics are never in their favor or seem to never
be. And we learned that he's like in
his grandmother's house and he's drives his grandmother's car and
he sticks up for a nor a few moments that don't feel like
pandering. They feel more.
Like, yeah, I feel that. Feel like disturbed when he was
like, I think it's appropriate. Like if Vanya apologizes and
then the mom is, you know, like my kid will not apologize to.
Him, right? Yeah.
So he's very good in this movie. I've never seen him in a film,
so I'm excited to see what he's got next to and I think he's
done some television. My only issue with this
character is that he obviously is in like a single romance
movie. Like, I don't know how to put
that. Like he's in his own romantic.
In a different movie than he's like a Nora.
Yeah, like is with him. Like there is a subplot in this
movie where 2 characters are falling in love, but really it's
just Igor falling in love with a Nora.
It's not a Nora falling in love with Igor.
And so it's a weird part of the final 5 minutes where she does
realize that this person respects her because he took the
ring. So she could sell that because
it's obviously worth a lot of money.
And her first reaction obviously, is to like be
romantic with him or have sex with him.
And the the kind of like jarring, tragic, final, like
distressing, crying and almost like grieving that she's going
through about this, like the way she's been exploited or
objectified over the past few weeks with Vanya and his family
is really sad. But again, it doesn't.
It feels almost like the comedy of the character and the romance
of the character that he's interested in there.
At least the romantic feelings he has for Anora doesn't feel
totally deserved either, because he's just in his own.
Does that make sense? Which I think is fun and
interesting as far as like a subplot in a movie like this.
That's pretty actually. That's actually very good
writing. But I actually don't want to
read too much into their relationship because I don't
think there really is 1. Yeah, I I agree too.
I felt like it wasn't, it was kind of flat for me.
Also in beyond the idea, though, that I do think what you're
you're talking about worked and that he actually like I
appreciated his like kind of love for Nora, even though I
don't know if it's like love, but like it's.
Respect. Admiration.
Her like really, you know, like advocating for herself, like
standing up for herself, like and no like speaking on when
she's wronged. So I think like that was that
was like a successful piece of it, but ultimately didn't work
for me either. Yeah, and there's also some more
pandering stuff, like that night after they get back from the
jet. They have some very complicated
conversations. But again, it does seem like
they're painting her to be weirdly naive, and the power
dynamic is confusing. If she throws down the blanket.
A part of this movie is about Nora realizing that she doesn't
have much control. But again, that doesn't really,
you could still have agency and still be taken advantage of or
exploited. And so that's a confusing line
this movie never nails. And so that through that
character, I think it's actually really clear because it's
supposed to be the most heartfelt part of the movie.
If you're going to call anything in this movie heartfelt, it'll
be a relationship that he has to the character.
But yeah, I think that's a little odd.
But it is very funny watching Igor and Toros, who's played by
Karen Kagurian and Garnik, who is the other Armenian hench men,
you know, run around New York City with Anora looking for
Vanya. Or the kind of like the humor of
them not wanting to keep Anora in the house, like the idea that
they're just like hired rent, like I guess hired hench men,
like hench men for rent or gangsters for rent.
Like that's a funny idea. And, and Sean Banker's biggest
strength is, I think, a little bit of his weakness here, which
is he spent so much time with them because he's trying to
humanize people who have, you know, stereotypes against them
or they're trying to de stigmatize many of the the
figures in this movie are all the characters.
And I do think he spends just too much time with these hench
men. But I still give extra credit to
the the comedic elements of this movie that are only exists
because of what these actors are doing.
Yeah, yeah, I I love the the three like relationships or the
three characters relationships with each other there.
But you're right. I I think I had a similar
reaction of Sean Baker's strength in trying to humanize
and show that these three men are like doing a job, especially
in the I think maybe the best scene of the movie, one of them
comedic wise when Toros has to leave like the baptism and gets
a call right from the family. Like you're very aware of Taurus
role, it's. Like texting?
Yeah, that kind of build up, like that's a very funny moment
and something that Shawn Baker's great at.
And also the other moments where you know, like a Nora breaks his
brother's nose and he's like, I'm just like trying to do a
job, like please stay still, like that kind of thing.
Or, or Igor only expecting to be there for like 2 hours, right?
And turns into like 48 or something, right.
And so I, I think like those are Shawn Baker's strengths and
where the comedy comes from. And there's like a dark comedy,
but also like there's a during that particular sequence when
they first go into the house and they're like just stay still to
Anora. You can't separate that moment
and like that comedy, even if it is dark humor.
And it's like knowing from also like the idea that in reality
and Nora would be in danger here or the the like violent images
that we've seen like toward women in like film before.
You can't separate that and so. It just feel convenient, like,
oh, we're not. We're just in a fantastical
movie. It's elevated.
We're in a comedy now. Like we don't actually want to
capture her. Isn't it funny that these men
don't actually want to be violent towards her?
They're just trying to do and that.
And she's actually the one that's being violent towards
them. Yeah, like flipping it.
The the Enora Mikey Madison performances were funny.
The physical comedy of like them, you know, getting beat up
by her was like, funny. Falling in the glass tables.
Yeah, but ultimately like it it, I was like, there's something
like that's not self aware here. That feels strange because you
feel like Shawn Baker would be self aware.
Well, in the moment, I didn't really think that means it's a
really great observation. In the moment, I didn't think
too much about it. I did think it was like
interesting subversion of like what we were expecting in terms
of like these hench men coming to like basically what looks to
be kidnap her and, and they and they definitely de escalate
that. In fact, it seems like the hench
men respect her more than the Russian oligarch family by the
end of the movie. But again, it all feels sort of
tonally imbalanced and also almost at the end of the movie,
again, feels pandering to the Enora character.
And as far as the hench men kind of being like, well, we did tell
you, like we did tell you that Vanya was like not a good guy.
And we told you this family was like not a family you could
trust. And now look at this situation
where we're going to send you some money to your account, like
whatever they said, $10,000 or something, something like that.
And then she goes and picks it up the next morning with Igor at
the bank. And it does feel like she is
this like a cautionary tale and also like a young 20s moral
lesson for a character that is like Sean Baker knows better
than to do that with because he already is trying to do so much
to humanize the character. So taking agency away from them
and taking away their kind of self-awareness feels
unnecessarily complicated. Or he, he maybe even like D,
complicates what could have been a more morally complex story.
So yeah, I guess my extra credit is actually a critique.
My bad. No, but I do.
No, no. I think the extra credit of
these like three guys. They're great bits, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, especially during the especially the moments where
they're they're searching for Vanya is great.
It's where, you know, Tangerine's comedy like really
is heightened. It's just that it focuses your
right more so on the men's relationships with each other,
especially the brothers, like which is very funny.
It's great stuff. But but you're right, like
unfortunately, because the Enora isn't the center of like those
relationships or like that that comedy all the time as it is, as
like you know, Shawn Baker does do in Tangerine and we like get
more depth from characters throughout the comedy.
It it just doesn't work as much here.
But but I think it is a good extra credit because that I mean
that's my personal favorite part of the movie just.
Which it shouldn't be. I know because it's, yeah.
No, not should be for you, but I agree that it's the most like
successful. Like he he weirdly feels the
most comfortable there. Movie almost because it should
be like a shorter piece of the movie.
Much shorter, yeah. Yeah, or, you know, again, like
we've repeated too many times probably now, but like the idea
of like shifting a Nora's character or tweaking her
somehow. Yeah, in characterization, yeah.
I really love the first act of this movie.
And the third act come down doesn't feel deserved because
the second act is so much fun. Yeah.
And the movie doesn't feel like it wants to be fun.
So yeah, I do think it's ultimately a really ambitious
swing from Sean Baker. I really want people to go and
see this. So if you listen to this whole
episode, you've not seen this movie.
Thank you for listening. But go see this film.
We've seen it twice. I'm totally fine if this one's
best picture. I haven't seen everything in the
year, like Brutalist or Queer or Nosferatu, which will have no
chance because it's a horror film.
But there are a lot of movies to come that I expect will compete,
you know, for my own personal rankings of the year.
But Inora is easily a top ten movie of the year, probably my
top five right now, sitting comfortably next to Challengers
and Furiosa and Dune and among other movies.
But yeah, I'm really excited to see what Baker's, you know, got
next. I'm sure he has something
planned because this is a movie he's been thinking about for 15
or 20 years. And I'm really excited to see
the future of the career of Mikey Madison.
Yeah, me too. OK, next time on the podcast we
are going to be covering probably some Patreon episodes.
We have a big Denzel week coming up because Gladiator 2.
If you liked what you hear, please go ahead or like what you
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Please go ahead and like and subscribe to this YouTube
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podcast, 5 stars on Spotify or Apple, leave us a review.
Let us know in the comments of our YouTube video.
What did you like about Anora? Yeah, or maybe like, what are
your favorite Sean Baker movies? And if you agreed or disagreed
with, you know, our conflicted feelings about the Enora
character, I think this was a really fun movie.
Yeah, definitely. And I, I understand why people
love it too. It's just that I feel like it's
being talked about as if the strengths of like a Florida
project. Maybe that's where I'm coming
out a little bit harsher on it. But yeah, let us know what you
think. And also, I love a Sean Baker
ranking if you've seen his other movies.
Yeah, let us know in the comments.
All right, guys. See you.
Bye.