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5678. 
Rock. 

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Step triple step rock. 
Step cha cha cha cha cha cha. 

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Hi, my name is Kate and my 
pronouns, are they them? 

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And my name is Lou, and my 
pronouns are they them as well? 

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Just to they themes talking 
about dance. 

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Dance and stuff. 
Yes, all the stuff. 

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So today we're going to be 
talking about white supremacy. 

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This will be at least a two-part
episode or two-part series about

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white supremacy, and we're just 
going to talk about some stuff. 

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We'll get into the like the kind
of gist of the episode, but 1st,

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I want to just define white 
supremacy. 

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It is an umbrella term and with 
Wikipedia anyways, says that 

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white supremacy is the belief 
that white people are superior 

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to those of other races and over
the land. 

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But there's so much more to it, 
and we're going to get into it 

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today. 
It's racism, sexism, ableism, 

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classism, homophobia, 
transphobia, fat phobia and 

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ageism. 
Yes, absolutely. 

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And white supremacy isn't just 
like this scary thing that's 

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talked about in books. 
It's actually like something 

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that lives in our bodies and 
something that is portrayed 

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through culture. 
And there's this really cool 

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list that kind of helps us 
deconstruct that. 

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It's this list that I first 
heard from a Tik Toker named 

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Shaheem McLaren. 
They spell it with A5. 

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We'll put links in our show 
notes so that you can go find 

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them. 
And they did an it is it white 

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supremacy series back in 2021. 
And that's when I first became 

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aware of this list. 
And ever since then, I've kind 

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of been like just checking 
myself and the the communities 

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and the organizations that I've 
been across and been like, does 

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this show up? 
Unless is this that white 

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supremacy thing? 
Oh, because it's actually like 

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this. 
Really. 

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It hides everywhere because 
white supremacy is the 

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foundation of our modern 
American culture. 

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It's like the ocean we swim in. 
And it takes a lot to be able to

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notice it in all the little 
parts. 

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So the story or like The Who who
wrote this original list? 

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It's written by a white Jewish 
lady named Tema Akan. 

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And she wrote this back in 1999.
And she is someone who she's a 

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little older and she has the 
story from when she was young 

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working in the Black White 
Alliance at her school. 

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And there she was having a 
meeting for this community 

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organization in the basement to 
her house. 

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And a young black man was in 
this organization with her and 

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said to her, you're being racist
during the meeting. 

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I was trying to call her out on 
something. 

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And she was like, I can't be 
racist. 

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Look, I'm having the meeting to 
the black and white straight, 

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the black and white straight 
from the black and white 

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alliance. 
I'm having the meeting for the 

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black and white alliance here in
my basement. 

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Like obviously I'm not a racist.
And their argument continues on.

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And she goes upstairs to go get 
more refreshments. 

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And at some point her mom pulls 
her aside. 

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And it's like, hey, listen, you 
are being a racist down there. 

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Just because you're in there 
trying to make it better doesn't

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mean that you haven't come to 
the table with everything that 

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your society and your privilege 
of your whiteness has brought 

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you to this moment. 
So even though you're walking 

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into that space with really good
intentions, you'll still 

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bringing all these constructs 
with you. 

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And that's a it's a lifelong 
process to deconstruct them. 

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So as Temma went on about her 
life and kept that redirect from

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her mom and the work that she 
was doing in the black and white

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alliance in mind, she came up 
with this list that is 

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referenced a lot in white people
talking about how to deconstruct

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their own whiteness. 
And we're going to go through 

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this list with you and talk 
about each item in it and how we

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see it showing up within Dance 
Worlds. 

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Yes, absolutely. 
I just want to like when we were

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talking about getting this 
episode together, Lou gave me 

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the resources that they had 
found like they described. 

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And I did watch the video of her
recounting this story, and I was

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just, I mean, it's just a really
beautiful story. 

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And it's really amazing that she
allowed it to stick with her. 

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And also that her mom was saying
hey like wake up basically. 

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Absolutely. 
I think it's such a gift that 

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both her mom and the boy in her 
community shared with her of 

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like, listen, you're, you're not
seeing something here. 

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And we want, we would love for 
you to see it so you can 

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continue to be better. 
And that's kind of that's kind 

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of the beginning of what it 
takes. 

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So we're going to. 
Talk a lawyer. 

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OK, so let's go ahead and get 
into this list. 

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We're going to read it to you. 
Let's go ahead and get into this

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list. 
I'm going to go ahead and start 

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reading it. 
So we have either or thinking 

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perfectionism, sense of urgency,
defensiveness, quality over 

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quantity, worship of the written
word. 

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Only one right way. 
Paternalism. 

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Power hoarding, fear of open 
conflict, individualism. 

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I'm the only one. 
Progress is bigger and more 

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objectivity and the right to 
comfort. 

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So what some people might 
recognize in this list and what 

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what I recognize in this list 
and what made it me like really 

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excited to really bring this 
into my own life is that I 

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noticed this is like a trauma 
response. 

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If you are behaving in all of 
these things. 

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That's how people tend to act 
when they are living more in 

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their trauma than grounded in 
the moment. 

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And that's why I think it's 
really powerful to deconstruct 

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this is because it really helps 
us understand how white 

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supremacy is white people moving
through the trauma of their own 

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oppression and moving that, 
putting that oppression on 

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others. 
Exactly. 

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Yeah, I had the same exact 
reaction when I read the list 

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and the the details in the list,
which we don't, we don't have 

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enough time to go through every 
detail, but we're going to add 

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the links. 
Like Lou had said. 

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It's very much, you know, you 
might notice it in your own. 

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I mean, we're all going to 
notice these things in our 

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psyche and in our bodies. 
But certainly if if you've had 

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trauma and if you've acted that 
trauma out with anyone else, 

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you're going to see the this 
stuff is really. 

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Be able to see it very clearly 
and well, I mean, I would argue 

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that everyone in America living 
under white supremacy is 

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traumatized by white supremacy. 
So how how that shows up in your

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nervous system, in your body, 
and how that shows up when we 

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start working together in 
groups, which the the dance 

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community does all of those 
things. 

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That's basically all it is, is 1
big group trying to be its own 

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little Petri dish in this weird 
culture we live in. 

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All right, so we're going to 
start breaking down this list 

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item by item, and we're going to
start with either or thinking. 

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And one of the reasons why I 
wanted to start with this one 

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first is because it kind of sets
up the idea that we really want 

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to be thinking about everything 
in nuance and that we are making

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this quick little that we are 
making this podcast for y'all. 

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And podcasts can often, even 
though they're one of the 

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mediums that can break things 
down in a really complex way, it

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also can kind of gloss over some
details. 

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So we might be talking about 
some really like specific things

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or answers or ideas. 
And I just want to encourage 

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everybody to know that there is 
deep nuance through everything 

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that we are talking to. 
And if we aren't presenting that

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nuance, we would love if that 
nuance, you know, if you jump 

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into the conversation and share 
that nuance with us as well, 

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because there's definitely 
things that we're going to be 

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missing here. 
Absolutely, yeah. 

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So the the basic definition or 
like what we kind of put 

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together based on this list is, 
is very black and white, either 

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or thinking is black and white 
thinking good versus bad, US 

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versus them, and simplifying 
complex things down to something

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really condensed to fit a 
narrative. 

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Things are either or or right or
wrong right. 

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Right. 
Yes, I think we really see this 

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come through in the dance world 
where you're like, well, I'm 

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either a good dancer, I'm a bad 
dancer or that person there, 

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they're either a good dancer or 
a bad dancer, or that community 

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is good or bad, or that thought 
process is good or bad or 

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anything like that. 
Yes. 

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I mean, it's like when you first
get there, you're like, oh, I'm 

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not good enough. 
And then before you know it, 

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you're like in a group of people
that thinks they're better than 

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everyone else. 
Like it's very subtle how this 

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happens. 
Right. 

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Absolutely. 
The antidote to this really is 

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nuance. 
It's slowing down and dropping 

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into the complex dialectic of 
each situation, understanding 

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that it isn't either ORS, that 
everything is 1 and nothing is 

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actually has supremacy over the 
other, that everything has 

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value, and that there is no good
bad. 

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There just is. 
Yes. 

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And like in the dance world that
can present itself in such a 

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like broad kind of way. 
It could be in how you ask 

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questions and how you get 
answers, how you decide how 

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you're going to show up in the 
space and really showing up with

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the nuance of that. 
This is kind of a complex 

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community that that is just like
the broader world, right? 

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The next one on the list, as we 
see, they're all going to be 

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kind of like related to each 
other and interwoven. 

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But the next one is 
perfectionism. 

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And Lou, do you want to toss out
a definition for that one? 

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Yeah, the definition of 
perfectionism is when making a 

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mistake is being confused with 
being a mistake. 

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So instead of just doing 
something wrong, you are wrong. 

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And it's the hyper fixation on 
making mistakes and what those 

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are and and focusing on what is 
wrong instead of kind of also 

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looking at what what is working 
even in what the wrongness is. 

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Yes, and we can really see this 
in dance spaces when we focus 

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and put all the credit on the 
people that are seen as the 

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best, like the like the 
teachers, the organizers, the 

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dance contest winners and seeing
them as the perfect ones and 

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everyone else that is just 
working to be perfect. 

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Yes, yes, it's the like the 
ideal is what we're all kind of 

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collectively striving for when 
actually we're good as we are 

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and like that sense of 
constantly having to strive. 

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And I love that word hyper 
fixation because it implies 

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obsession. 
And I do think that 

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perfectionism in our culture has
this really obsessive tendency. 

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And of course, that is happening
in Dance 2, where we're 

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constantly trying to better 
ourselves and be like someone 

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else. 
Yeah, and we see this in 

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capitalism where it's like, 
well, I'm just not a millionaire

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millionaire yet. 
I'll be a billionaire next week 

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if I just keep doing XYZ. 
And it's like, actually the 

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that's not A, that's not how it 
works. 

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And B, the people that have done
that have done a lot of 

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oppressing others to get there. 
So why don't we just slow down 

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and view where we're at and the 
value in that as well? 

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Right, So then the antidote ends
up being just like embodying and

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developing a culture of true 
appreciation for ourselves and 

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others in this space of oneness.
Absolutely. 

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And really delighting in the 
process and delighting and 

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learning and making mistakes. 
It's like a gift. 

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00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:36,400
Like when, you know, often 
dancers will do things where 

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they try to break the rules of 
the dance or they, you know, 

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they do things where they're 
trying to make mistakes so that 

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they can see it get funny and 
then they can learn from them. 

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00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,080
Yes, yes. 
I mean, I think it's really rare

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to see, like, dance pros show 
their work and show like behind 

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the scenes of what makes them 
appear to be perfect. 

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But that when that happens in 
those rare instances, it's like 

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00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:04,920
a salve to the collective heart 
of the dancer. 

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00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,240
It's like, oh, thank God, you 
know? 

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00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:11,720
Yes, yes, I think that there's 
been a really cool movement of 

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some dance influencers and 
people who are sharing their 

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dance like dance journeys as 
content on the Internet where 

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they're showing the rough 
moments too, and that it's not 

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all shiny and perfect. 
What does it look like when they

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fall or when they don't win 
something? 

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Or just what a random Tuesday 
dance practice can be? 

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It's not all these super shiny 
moments of winning something. 

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00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:41,640
Yes, yes, that antidote too, of 
just of being in the space of 

227
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what's here is enough. 
Absolutely. 

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And appreciating one another. 
Absolutely. 

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So the next item that we're 
going to talk through is a sense

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of urgency, and that is defined 
as a sense of urgency that makes

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it difficult to take time to be 
inclusive, encourage democratic 

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00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:07,880
or thoughtful decision making to
think long term, or allowing 

233
00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:11,600
yourself to think long term more
focusing on the short term or 

234
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considering the consequences of 
the decisions that you're 

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making. 
Yes, I. 

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Feel like the sense of urgency, 
like capitalism runs on a sense 

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of urgency. 100% nervous system 
thing of like you're always 

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rushing to get the answer 
because sitting and waiting 

239
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causes discomfort. 
Right. 

240
00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,360
Absolutely. 
Try sitting down after a day of 

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work and not looking at your 
phone. 

242
00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:38,680
Yeah, You know, I mean, we're, 
we're literally hardwired to be 

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constantly trying to get to the 
next thing. 

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And most of the time what's 
happening culturally is we're 

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just trying to focus on fixing 
now and not thinking about the 

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long term. 
And I see this in the dance 

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world. 
I mean, I like Lou said, you 

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know, collectively as a 
community and a culture, it's 

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like running the show. 
But I think it's also running 

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dance, of course, in the sense 
that we have studio owners, 

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dance teachers, students even 
making all of their decisions 

252
00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:14,600
based on what is going to get 
them something that they want 

253
00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:19,720
right now, whether it's a fuller
class, no matter who they had to

254
00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:24,920
kind of, you know, no matter who
was involved in the process, 

255
00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:29,840
just pushing forward to the next
big thing is typically the way 

256
00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:32,320
that it works in in the 
industry. 

257
00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:35,800
Yeah, absolutely. 
And then the antidote to this is

258
00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:39,440
to simply go slower, is to 
recognize when that sense of 

259
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urgency is on board and to be 
like, oh, am I, do I need to be 

260
00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,560
rushing right now? 
Do we need to, is that deadline 

261
00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:50,160
actually important or can we 
slow down and deconstruct this 

262
00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:54,720
need to rush and you know, do 
things like include more people 

263
00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:58,200
in the decision making process 
or like seeing like, is this 

264
00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,280
actually what's going to be best
for the dance community or is 

265
00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:05,400
this is what's going to help 
like get as many people on the 

266
00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:08,040
door as possible? 
Right, right. 

267
00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:10,800
Absolutely. 
And I feel like that slowing 

268
00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:15,280
down is, is a really brave move.
But once you start doing it, 

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00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:17,960
like Lou and I have experienced 
this in our own business, like 

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00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:20,920
once we've started doing it, 
we're like, yeah, let's slow the

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00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:22,320
fuck down. 
Slowing down is. 

272
00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:24,360
Great, so good. 
Slower. 

273
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,600
Yeah, like we definitely just 
did this with deciding to, to 

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00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,600
take some time off from 
releasing podcast episodes. 

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And there was a moment where 
Kate was like, why don't we take

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a whole month off? 
And I was like, I don't know, 

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'cause I feel like we can't. 
And then I went, I slept on it 

278
00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:38,760
and I was like, Oh yeah, let's 
take a month off. 

279
00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:40,680
Like, yeah. 
Hell yeah, yeah. 

280
00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,320
I really respect seeing this in 
the dance world too. 

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00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:47,320
I, I really respect because I 
saw that the Queer Afro Latin 

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00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:49,080
Dance Festival took a whole year
off. 

283
00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,440
We were all like, let's go to 
the Queer Afro Latin Dance 

284
00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,440
Festival in 2025. 
Oh, there isn't one this year. 

285
00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:59,920
We just got to think about 2026.
And I, I know nothing about 

286
00:16:59,920 --> 00:17:02,360
those organizers. 
I don't know why that decision 

287
00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:07,040
was made, but I as an outsider, 
I was like, oh, they're really 

288
00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:11,560
caring about making sure that 
it's going to be a really good 

289
00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:14,680
event because they didn't just 
rush to do 1 because they had to

290
00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:17,520
that year. 
They decided to slow down and be

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00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,520
more intentional. 
All right, so the next one we're

292
00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:23,240
going to look at is 
defensiveness. 

293
00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:28,319
And defensiveness is criticism 
of those with power being viewed

294
00:17:28,319 --> 00:17:32,760
as threatening or inappropriate.
It's a big one. 

295
00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:34,800
Absolutely. 
That's a real big one. 

296
00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:39,320
And it's one of these ones that 
like keeps this nightmare going 

297
00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,800
because like you're not allowed 
to make the people and in power 

298
00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,200
uncomfortable because, well, the
one of the main reasons is 

299
00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:47,000
they'll probably, they're going 
to get defensive. 

300
00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:51,040
So then you feel gas lit. 
It's like, oh, was I even, was I

301
00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,320
being upset about something? 
Maybe that isn't something that 

302
00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:55,480
I should have brought up. 
But really it's like the 

303
00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:59,720
defensiveness that the people in
power have or that we all holds 

304
00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:04,560
that kind of stops us from 
taking feedback and actually 

305
00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:06,960
like improving and considering 
everybody's. 

306
00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:11,840
Experience, yes, I think like in
the dance world, I have had so 

307
00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:15,720
much personal experience with 
this being a dance teacher that 

308
00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:20,440
prevent has presented very 
feminine a lot of my teaching 

309
00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:28,120
career and I've had a lot of 
male students be really taken 

310
00:18:28,120 --> 00:18:32,720
off guard and kind of passive 
aggressive when I give them 

311
00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:36,720
feedback about their dancing. 
Like 01 example is somebody 

312
00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:40,800
saying yes ma'am, like in a 
really condescending tone after 

313
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,800
I give them like a tip or a 
trick for how to like make it 

314
00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:47,440
feel better or like, Oh yeah, I,
I knew how to do that. 

315
00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:49,760
I just didn't do it right that 
one time, you know? 

316
00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:53,600
And it's just like we all have 
those feelings of not wanting to

317
00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:57,200
be wrong, but having that 
sensation. 

318
00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:00,840
I, I, I even went to other 
teachers that were male and they

319
00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:03,840
have no concept of this. 
So it's like this kind of power 

320
00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:08,280
dynamic even in the classroom, 
the kind of flip power dynamic 

321
00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:10,640
than you would initially think 
it was because I'm femme. 

322
00:19:11,120 --> 00:19:13,880
Yeah, absolutely. 
I think that that defensiveness 

323
00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:17,440
too, can happen regardless of 
gender, just in dance roles, 

324
00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:22,120
because the lead is the one 
that's dictating the like, 

325
00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:24,640
you're the one doing the prep, 
you're the one dictating what 

326
00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:26,960
the shapes are going to. 
Be so it's very. 

327
00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:30,240
Easy to get into the mindset of 
like, well, my follow's broken. 

328
00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:33,920
I've even had this where I'm 
like, a move's not working. 

329
00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:35,480
I can't tell what I'm doing 
wrong. 

330
00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:37,360
I'm like, well, it obviously 
needs to be the other person. 

331
00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:39,680
And I'm like, wait a second. 
Hold on, I know. 

332
00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:41,400
That the, it's always in the 
prep. 

333
00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:43,960
I know it's not that my follow 
is broken. 

334
00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:47,320
Like something's going on here 
and I really have to like take a

335
00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:52,760
moment to not just leap to that 
easiest thing of well, my follow

336
00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:54,800
is broken. 
And I think that's just like a 

337
00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:58,320
super common thing that that a 
lot of people experience. 

338
00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,520
I think another way that we see 
this too is. 

339
00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:07,440
Defending a lot of the men that 
are centered in our community. 

340
00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:09,440
And there's lots of 
conversations that I've been 

341
00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:13,800
Privy to where people will be 
voicing very real concerns about

342
00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:20,720
harm that's being created by an 
organizer or like just a very 

343
00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:25,800
popular guy or someone that is 
is taking up a lot of space in 

344
00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:28,840
the community, isn't necessarily
being reciprocal or very kind of

345
00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,000
the people around them. 
And there will be this kind of 

346
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:34,960
whisper networking conversation 
that lays out a very, a lot of 

347
00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:36,880
very real issues with this 
person. 

348
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,920
And then the conversation will 
end with, oh, but he's such a 

349
00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:43,720
nice guy, but he does so much 
for the community. 

350
00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:45,840
Oh, yeah. 
But you know, he's just, he 

351
00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:50,400
doesn't mean it. 
And it's like, well, just 

352
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:52,560
because he doesn't mean it 
doesn't mean that all of that 

353
00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:55,080
stuff that you were just saying 
like shouldn't be brought to his

354
00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,040
attention, right? 
That shouldn't be discussed in a

355
00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:01,640
community wide thing. 
Like why does he get to get away

356
00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:03,800
with that? 
And it's because we're like pre 

357
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:07,240
emptiving the defensive. 
We're doing the defensiveness 

358
00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:09,360
for them. 
And therefore gaslighting 

359
00:21:09,360 --> 00:21:10,880
ourselves. 
Right. 

360
00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:13,520
It's like a form of us gaslight.
We he didn't even have to do it.

361
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,160
We're gaslighting ourselves. 
Yeah, let me do that for him. 

362
00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:19,320
Right, right. 
And I like to ask, like, do we 

363
00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:24,640
give those excuses to like the 
the not white, straight, tall, 

364
00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,600
attractive men in our community?
Not. 

365
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:29,320
Not so much. 
Not so much. 

366
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:32,840
Yeah, absolutely. 
So then like the antidote to 

367
00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:37,640
that is naming this stuff when 
it's present, naming 

368
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:43,280
defensiveness when we see it, 
like a code of conduct being on 

369
00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:47,680
somebody's wall is not enough to
actually uphold people to the 

370
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:49,760
behavior that we want to see. 
We actually need to have 

371
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,920
conversations about it. 
Right, because the defensiveness

372
00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:55,520
will kind of still hide within 
that quote of conduct. 

373
00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,520
They'll be like, oh, well, I'm 
not, I'm not the person that's 

374
00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:00,440
doing this. 
Like I haven't created harm. 

375
00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:04,640
And it's like, well, actually, 
we all can create harm, harms 

376
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:10,360
possible in all of those places.
And we need to talk through the 

377
00:22:10,360 --> 00:22:14,520
specific situation and how 
you're feeling defensive and how

378
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:16,880
they're feeling defensive. 
We're all going to work on our 

379
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,280
defensiveness and then come back
to be a stronger community. 

380
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:25,880
Totally, yeah. 
I feel like a dance example is 

381
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:31,200
when you see literally anybody 
who has any kind of like power 

382
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:35,800
or recognition or visibility in 
the dance world changing their 

383
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:39,720
practices as they learn, giving 
space for people to feel through

384
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,840
issues on a case by case basis. 
Like you're saying, it's like we

385
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:47,400
don't see it very often, but 
whenever there is room for that 

386
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:52,400
conversation, it it's a it's 
healing for this issue. 

387
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:57,040
Absolutely, yes. 
So next we're going to talk 

388
00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:01,920
about quantity over quality. 
And we can define that as if it 

389
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:05,320
can't be measured, it can't be 
valued, and focusing on having 

390
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:07,880
more or being more is what's 
successful. 

391
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:13,240
This is one that's just like 
really, really blatant, I think 

392
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,320
everywhere. 
But it's it's one that I think 

393
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:18,680
is like a bit more obvious in 
the dance world. 

394
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:24,760
In a lot of ways. 
It's like if a studio is not 

395
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:27,840
like the students aren't winning
awards, if they're not 

396
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:30,840
performing, if they don't have 
really packed classes and a 

397
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,040
while and out social, then it's 
just not successful. 

398
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:37,120
And a part of it is that dance 
business is really hard. 

399
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,960
And so of course, if you want to
offer it, you want to be 

400
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:46,520
successful, but it doesn't 
actually mean that there isn't 

401
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:48,880
quality. 
And so the antidotes that we can

402
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,400
see to this is having value 
statements actually, what is our

403
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:54,200
quality? 
What do we know what that is? 

404
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,560
Do we have it written down? 
And that's something that like 

405
00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:01,880
often you'll see nonprofits or 
businesses or things have a 

406
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:03,720
mission statement or a value 
statement. 

407
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:08,360
And it's a bit of of writing 
that can help ground you and 

408
00:24:08,360 --> 00:24:10,800
what you actually care about. 
So you can revisit that in 

409
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:14,120
moments of decision making. 
Absolutely. 

410
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:20,640
And I feel like I've seen this 
like literally anytime I've been

411
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:25,280
in a classroom where the teacher
steps away from whatever the 

412
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:29,120
plan for the day was or the 
lesson that they had prepared 

413
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:31,200
and addressed the people in 
front of them. 

414
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,440
And because sometimes teachers 
get in there and they try stuff 

415
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,920
and it's just like the wheels 
fall off or like people are 

416
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,520
emotional or there's like 
obviously something happening 

417
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:43,720
where there's some dysregulation
in the room. 

418
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:48,680
And I've had teachers stop and 
just like address the group and 

419
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,680
try to kind of attune to the 
energy that's actually here and 

420
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,840
present. 
And Oh my goodness, that was 

421
00:24:54,840 --> 00:25:02,600
more bang for any buck in terms 
of getting my needs met as a 

422
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,520
dancer, then jamming through 
more and more figures. 

423
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:10,920
It just felt so amazing and and 
deep to be treated that way. 

424
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,440
So next on the list is worship 
of the written word. 

425
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:18,240
The definition in the original 
list is if it isn't in a memo, 

426
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,840
it doesn't exist, right? 
And the way that we kind of see 

427
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:25,320
this in the dance world, as if 
it isn't in a class, it doesn't 

428
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:29,760
exist, right? 
And this is like classes cost 

429
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:34,160
money and time and and people 
start to really value the 

430
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:40,560
information taught in a class 
over any other dance information

431
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:42,760
that can be out of there. 
And classes can do things like 

432
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,280
create clicks. 
It creates right and wrong ways 

433
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:49,560
to think about things. 
And it can cause where you value

434
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,000
less dance forms than the one 
that you're studying. 

435
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,800
And it's again, bringing nuance 
back into all of this. 

436
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,440
It's not that dance classes 
can't be great, but they do 

437
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:00,920
'cause this worship of the 
written word thing that we 

438
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:05,320
should be aware of totally. 
I mean, the whole point of being

439
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:09,160
a dancer is to get out and go to
a social or like be able to 

440
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,440
dance at your cousin's wedding 
or at a BBQ or whatever. 

441
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:17,240
And if you don't have the time 
or money to do all that, then 

442
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:19,720
can you just not be a dancer? 
No, of course you can be a 

443
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,200
dancer, you know. 
All you have to do is get up and

444
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,320
move your body to be able to be 
a dancer. 

445
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:26,960
And if you see a dance social 
going on, you don't need to go 

446
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,480
take 10 weeks of classes, you 
can go dance. 

447
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:34,000
You can just go, yeah. 
And so of course, like, yeah, 

448
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,440
the antidote to that is just 
working to see the contributions

449
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,840
and skills that literally every 
person, whether they have taken 

450
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:43,560
a dance class or not, brings to 
the ballroom. 

451
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,160
Yes, absolutely. 
It's like one of those things 

452
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,040
that the antidote to white 
supremacy altogether is 

453
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:51,200
understanding everyone has 
intrinsic value. 

454
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,280
You did not gain value by 
showing up and learning the 

455
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,640
dance class and being there for 
the information that's being 

456
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:01,520
disseminated. 
You're getting value because 

457
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:03,480
you've shown up and started 
moving your body. 

458
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,280
So true. 
I love that you just said that 

459
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:11,600
because I think that is one of 
the inherent elements of 

460
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,680
whiteness is that it kind of 
strips us from what we come 

461
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:17,000
with. 
Yeah. 

462
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,280
Absolutely into being in a body 
and and being able to move. 

463
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:21,720
Yeah. 
OK. 

464
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,040
The next and the last one we're 
going to talk about in today's 

465
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:29,920
episode is only One right way, 
which basically is not seeing 

466
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:34,720
the value in other communities 
or other information and only 

467
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,760
value your own information in 
your own community. 

468
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,480
Yes. 
And we really see this in the 

469
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:44,360
dance world with how dance 
styles get pitted against each 

470
00:27:44,360 --> 00:27:47,160
other. 
Like there's this big rivalry 

471
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:49,400
between Lindy hop and West 
Coast. 

472
00:27:50,120 --> 00:27:54,960
And in my like Lindy hop upgrade
upbringing, I've been like, 

473
00:27:55,120 --> 00:27:59,320
well, I hate West Coast because 
it's the white appropriation of 

474
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:01,840
Lindy hop. 
And then I look at West Coast 

475
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,640
communities and then they're 
full of people of color and 

476
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:06,440
Lindy hop full of white people. 
And I'm like, huh, I think, I 

477
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:11,480
think I've more unpacking to do 
and learning to do around this. 

478
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,400
Totally. 
Yeah, We have that in salsa too.

479
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:19,240
It's like New York versus West 
Coast or New York is like real 

480
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,880
salsa. 
I'm like, MMM, OK, they're both,

481
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,200
they're both salsa, yeah. 
Or whatever. 

482
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:30,280
So, yeah, I think that that is 
just, you know, this stuff is so

483
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:32,400
much, this is either or 
thinking, right? 

484
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,400
This is the same thing, same 
thing, but it's just more a more

485
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:39,920
specific, like condensed version
of it where it's like what I 

486
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,840
learned is right and I don't 
want to be wrong here. 

487
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,440
So I have to kind of defend this
thing. 

488
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:49,040
We see it all the time, yes. 
And the antidotes to it are 

489
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,880
like, question your beliefs and 
like accept that there's just 

490
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,800
more ways to do the thing that 
you're doing and that many 

491
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,720
people can bring answers to the 
table, not just you and the 

492
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:00,200
people that you have learned 
from. 

493
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:05,240
And we can really see this in 
the dance world when you like 

494
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:09,760
dance more than one dance form, 
when you try out more things 

495
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:14,160
like if you dance Lindy hop and 
West Coast, that we I would love

496
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,480
to have a person like that on 
the podcast so I can talk to 

497
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,560
them about my own West Coast 
swing biases. 

498
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,720
Absolutely. 
Like, if you and I had gotten 

499
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,880
over ourselves like a year and a
half ago and gone to a West 

500
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:30,800
Coast social, we would have seen
there's like, different kinds of

501
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:32,520
people there. 
And we may have been like, more 

502
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:34,560
open to questioning our beliefs 
sooner. 

503
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,320
Absolutely. 
But yeah, that that questioning 

504
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:41,000
of like, why do I feel this way?
Is it possible? 

505
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:42,640
I don't have all the 
information. 

506
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,280
I think that this also really 
shows up well in the dance world

507
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:50,360
with a lot of people. 
At least I know that this 

508
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:54,600
happens in the jazz community of
knowing that things have many 

509
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,000
different names and many 
different ways to look, and that

510
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:03,080
there's a bit of vocabulary that
has this specific shape to it. 

511
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:05,920
But you can bring whatever 
flavor to that shape that you 

512
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,880
want, and it's still that thing.
So there's no real one right way

513
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,160
to do it. 
Yes, I love that you just said 

514
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:16,320
that because I feel like that is
what makes I've had a teacher 

515
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,560
tell me like I'm going to show 
you this, but I don't want you 

516
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:23,160
to do it like me. 
I want you to do it like you and

517
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,920
I at first I was like, no, like 
it's better if I just do it like

518
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,320
them. 
But the reality is like the what

519
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:33,080
I bring is my my sauce. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

520
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,720
And it's valuing that, not 
thinking, oh, I got to do it the

521
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,000
exact right way. 
It's like the things that I 

522
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,560
bring to the table are valuable,
just like things everyone else 

523
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:43,000
brings to the table are 
valuable. 

524
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:48,000
Absolutely, Absolutely. 
All right, well, that's it for 

525
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:49,880
us today. 
There's a whole other half of 

526
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,080
this list to get through, but 
you're going to be able to find 

527
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,280
that in Part 2 of this episode. 
Woo Hoo. 

528
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,840
All right, y'all, leave us a 
review on your favorite 

529
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:02,560
podcasting platform. 
Even though we are divested from

530
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:07,000
everyone's favorite society 
destroying company Meta, we are 

531
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,320
still on Instagram and you can 
find our profile there at D 

532
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:14,080
Gender Under Score Dance. 
Yes, and as usual, you can send 

533
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,840
all of your suggestions, even 
hate mail and love letters, to 

534
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:21,200
dgenderdance@gmail.com. 
Thanks for tuning in. 

535
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:22,440
That's it. 
Goodbye. 

536
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:23,600
Bye.