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5678. 
Rock step, triple step, Rock 

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step cha cha cha cha cha. 
Hi, my name is Kate and my 

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pronouns, are they them? 
Hi, my name is Lou. 

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My pronouns, are they them? 
Just to they themes talking 

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about dance. 
Dance and stuff. 

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Woohoo. 
Hey, Lou. 

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Hey Kate, how you doing? 
I'm good. 

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Glad to be here with you today. 
Well, we have a really cool 

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guest today, but I also want to 
just like drop in here that I 

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don't know. 
I think this is our 7th episode 

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maybe we launched and we've had 
an amazing reception so far. 

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Yeah, this is the first time 
we're recording since we 

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actually launched the podcast. 
And we have been blown away by 

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the fact that we have like 
already have international 

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listenership and we've had such 
great feedback. 

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It's just been really incredible
how much. 

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Amazing. 
Thank you, thank you, all of you

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for wanting to listen to our 
weird little dance. 

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Podcast just, you know, keep 
keep listening and tuning in and

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if you have ideas, we want to 
know. 

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It's it's been really fun so 
far. 

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Absolutely. 
What? 

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What's on the what's on the 
agenda? 

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Well, we're going to be talking 
about disability and dance today

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and. 
We have something really 

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special, which is actually our 
first interview with a guest 

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named Hazel Weekly. 
We actually recorded this 

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interview a year ago during our 
pilot. 

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We'll be sharing that later in 
the episode. 

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And I wanted. 
To start this episode off by 

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asking Kate, because I don't 
actually know, do you identify 

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as a disabled person? 
You know I don't, but I do. 

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Yeah. 
It's kind of like my gender. 

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Things there's like a blurry, 
there's like a blurry line when 

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it comes to thinking if you're 
disabled or not. 

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There's actually this. 
I was on a The Cut in Seattle. 

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I don't know. 
There's these, these YouTube 

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videos that are like, I don't 
know, it'll be like people on a 

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first date playing beer pong and
like in a studio and they're 

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like playing or like, you know, 
I was on a guessing episode 

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where there's like a lineup of 
people and then there's a person

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that's a guesser and you have to
guess something about the, the 

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people that are in the lineup. 
And my friend Mindy Lind, who's 

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an extremely talented artist 
and, and musician, and she was 

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producing this episode and she's
a disability activist. 

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And I mean, one of the reasons 
she cast me is because I had 

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chronically ill and chronically 
chill in my Instagram bio. 

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And this was before I started 
identifying as disabled. 

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She I was cast in this episode 
because the thing that I was 

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guessing about people was if 
they were born disabled or if 

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they became disabled in their 
life. 

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And after I ended up, you know, 
being visibly disabled and 

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walking with a cane, I talked to
Mindy about it and I was like, 

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you like clocked me. 
You like knew that I was 

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disabled before I knew that I 
was disabled. 

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And it's just like one of those 
things. 

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It's it's disability and 
queerness are very, very similar

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in a in a lot of ways that it 
depends on how you define it. 

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It's true. 
It's true. 

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And I mean, that's what I said 
initially is like, it's kind of 

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like my gender, you know? 
It's like, oh, I don't know, I 

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saw a disabled comedian and he 
was saying he was like talking 

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about how there's like all these
kinds of minorities, but the 

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disabled minority is just like 
the only one that literally 

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anyone could become a part of at
anytime in their lives. 

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And most people will. 
Absolutely, yes. 

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It's the one minority that you 
can become a part of at any 

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time. 
And, you know, I kind of argue 

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that queerness is a little like 
that, too. 

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You've never known when 
someone's going to blow your 

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mind open on your gender. 
There's, you know. 

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I know you're. 
Just like spaghetti, straight 

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till you get wet. 
It's true. 

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And I also, you know, I kind of 
have defined it in my own life 

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mostly as, like, I don't get 
disabled services. 

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Yeah. 
And so I have chronic pain for 

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sure. 
That's been a lifelong. 

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A lifelong thing for me is 
chronic, chronic pain. 

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Right. 
There was definitely a moment 

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where I got my ADA parking pass 
and I was like, well, got that 

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little blue dude in my in my 
visor now. 

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So it's just kind of was like a 
label that that started wearing 

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that kind of shifted things a 
little bit for it. 

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But it's also like this 
spectrum, there isn't like a day

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necessarily that like you become
disabled, there's a day where 

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maybe something happens or you 
realize it or something like 

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that. 
But it can be a really blurry 

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line sometimes. 
We both have chronic health 

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issues and we're both disabled 
and we're both dancers. 

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And it can be pretty hard to do 
something that where the 

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community is so physically able,
body minded to have this be 

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something that that we do and 
hold community within. 

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Right. 
I mean, I personally, until the 

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last five years, like until the 
pandemic when I was really 

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forced to slow down, it just I 
really didn't have any context 

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for what that could mean for me.
And you hardly ever see people 

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who are visibly disabled that 
you can like kind of point to 

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and say that person is 
differently abled or like not 

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doing all the stuff like 
everyone else is on the dance 

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floor. 
And that creates this like this 

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very tight bandwidth for who can
dance and just not, not seeing 

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people, you know, seeing people 
do the most out there on the 

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dance floor is, is really what I
was accustomed to for a very 

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long time. 
Absolutely. 

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I know when I became visibly 
disabled and started walking 

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with a cane and and very much so
needing it both before and after

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dance socials because on my way 
to the dance social I'd need to 

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conserve my energy so that I'd 
have energy to dance. 

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And then after the dance social,
because I used all my energy and

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my joints were wiped, I would 
definitely need it afterwards. 

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And when I started walking 
around with that cane, the way I

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was being treated in dance 
spaces, Oh, really changed A lot

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of strange comments. 
A lot of people stopped speaking

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to me. 
It was like, it was really, 

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really interesting how I seem to
bring up a lot of feelings now 

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that it like it wasn't even me, 
it was my cane. 

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My cane brought up a lot of 
feelings in the dancers around 

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me. 
It was a very interesting thing 

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to have happen. 
Oh, yeah. 

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I mean, this is sort of 
adjacent, but I with chronic 

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pain, you kind of you have to 
tell people, yeah, you can't 

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just. 
Disability is like one of those 

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invisible things, people. 
It's totally invisible 

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disability. 
Like that's why I'm like when I 

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became visibly disabled, because
I've been disabled my whole 

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life. 
But there was a day where I 

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needed to walk out of the house 
with the. 

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King, Right, right. 
But I was on a dance team in 

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2019, and it was a heels 
routine. 

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And I was training for this one 
piece of choreography. 

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And at the end of the rehearsal,
I just, I went to the director 

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and I was like in tears. 
I was like, I can't do this. 

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I can't do the stuff you're 
asking me to do. 

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And instead of accommodating 
that, I was just pulled 

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completely, like on the spot. 
And that was a very well first, 

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It was a really empowering 
moment because it was the first 

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moment where I was like, I hit 
my limit. 

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I'm not going to push through 
this. 

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And it also was kind of like the
that moment was like the 

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downfall of me, like not 
performing anymore and and kind 

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of saying fuck you to the kind 
of ideal of what it means to be 

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a dancer. 
Yeah, as I was going. 

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Really downhill in my mobility. 
Back in late 2023, I was on a 

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performance team. 
It's like one of the few 

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performance team moments I've 
really had in my life. 

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And I was very lucky with having
someone who was directing that, 

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who would modify things and was 
supporting me. 

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And she definitely really 
understood where I was going 

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with my mobility and that she 
needed to support me in 

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accommodating it. 
However, then when we did the 

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performance and there was video 
evidence of it that was posted 

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online, I was cut out of. 
The damn So it was. 

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Definitely like a comedy for you
to be here, but like, I don't 

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want you to be visible. 
And that was kind of like an 

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interesting moment. 
Very, very. 

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And I think like there's little 
whispers of of visibly disabled 

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folks in the dance scene, but 
it's kind of like the outlier. 

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Well, I think it's really it is 
with all the other things that D

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gender dance kind of likes to 
talk about and is really 

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passionate about. 
I think it's very exciting to 

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imagine world where literally 
anyone can be seen as a dancer. 

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I read this amazing quote not 
that long ago. 

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I can't think of any actual 
names of people who said these 

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things or dancers that I'm 
talking about, but the quote was

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all you need is to have your 
molecules bouncing around inside

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your body to be a dancer. 
I love that so much. 

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Like, of course, you're a 
dancer. 

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Your molecules are bouncing 
around, you know? 

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Yeah. 
Your heart's dancing all the 

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time. 
Exactly, exactly. 

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Love that. 
I have this. 

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Story from a year ago was 
actually as I was leaving the 

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radio station when we recorded 
this interview with Hazel, and 

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it was in the period of time 
where I started walking with a 

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cane. 
I did not have a diagnosis yet 

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and I was really struggling with
my mobility. 

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And I was going to my car. 
I had this woman, she was 

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driving an Audi and she pulled 
over and stopped the car and she

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got out and she asked if she 
could. 

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Pray for me. 
I'm sorry, what? 

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And I remember being really 
confused in that moment because 

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it was June and I had extra 
pride stuff on my car and I was 

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dressed like I was wearing my 
like, weird little fedora and 

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just like looking pretty gay as 
well. 

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And I was like, is this because 
I'm gay or because I'm walking 

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with a cane? 
Like I couldn't, I could not 

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tell. 
And now with talking to other 

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disabled people, I know that it 
is quite a thing to be stopped 

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by people who believe they can 
pray away things. 

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And not that I don't wanna knock
it if you the, the, the, I'm a 

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spiritual person. 
I'm a witch. 

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I believe in like the, the, the 
power of prayer and stuff. 

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But I'm glad she asked for 
consent so I can say no. 

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Yeah, it was a really 
interesting moment. 

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I I mentioned my friend Mindy. 
She says that she has started 

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asking for money for those 
people. 

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And I think that that. 
Is the way to go. 

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That's the way to go next. 
Time I'll just be like all 

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right, 200 bucks that'll heal 
me. 

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I remember you telling me that 
story and I was just like, I 

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don't know, just kind of mind 
boggled by the audacity to to go

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up to someone and and, and just 
bring your kind of I can do 

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something. 
I I can let me you're so sad. 

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Let me help you. 
Right. 

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00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:03,720
Well that's because disability 
makes people uncomfortable 

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because it reminds them of their
own mortality. 

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00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:08,240
Exactly. 
People really want to have 

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control over other people's 
disability instead of just 

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accepting that it might make 
them a little uncomfortable, 

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right? 
Like another moment that I had 

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as a place that I was going to 
go dance. 

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Ballrooms are always on the 
fucking second floor. 

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I, I don't know why that's the 
thing, but they're almost always

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on the second floor of places. 
And there's this one place that 

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I was going to go dance that was
on the 2nd floor and it was 

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after a dance and I was waiting 
for my friend to come. 

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So I was just chilling there 
with my cane, feeling pretty 

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tired after dancing, and the guy
who organizes the dance came up 

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to me and offered to carry me 
down the stairs. 

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My God. 
And I was just like, I was fine 

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with, I'm fine walking down the 
stairs. 

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It's OK. 
Like, I get that there's no 

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elevator here and it sucks that 
I'm, you know, I have mobility 

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issues and I have to go up and 
down the stairs. 

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But it felt like him wanting to 
carry me down the stairs was way

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00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:04,360
more about him than me actually 
needing to go up and down the 

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stairs that day. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

228
00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:09,120
Let let me make myself feel 
better in this moment. 

229
00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:10,480
Right. 
Yeah. 

230
00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,800
So I think it's just like really
important that when interacting 

231
00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:18,400
with other people's 
disabilities, always letting 

232
00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:24,560
them take the lead and always 
checking in with yourself and 

233
00:12:24,560 --> 00:12:28,640
making sure, is this more about 
me or is this more about 

234
00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:32,000
actually supporting someone that
I'm, you know, holding community

235
00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:33,320
with? 
Totally. 

236
00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:36,320
I, I'm glad you shared that 
story because I mean, on the one

237
00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:38,120
hand, that was freaking 
hilarious. 

238
00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:41,320
And on the other, it's like, 
it's a good segue to just like 

239
00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:45,400
make a little bit of awareness 
or, you know, to create some 

240
00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:48,560
awareness in our own minds as we
think about this stuff. 

241
00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,120
And like I said earlier, we're 
all going to be there at some 

242
00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:53,200
point. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

243
00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:56,680
Like, you know, disability is 
one of those things that we like

244
00:12:56,680 --> 00:12:59,600
to like, have a lot of 
perfectionism around thinking 

245
00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,040
like, oh, I'm, I'm not disabled,
but like. 

246
00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:06,080
Do you wear glasses? 
Guess what? 

247
00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:09,120
Right. 
That you because disability like

248
00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:11,120
people think that it means 
something complicated, but what 

249
00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:13,120
that word literally means is 
that you just have a different 

250
00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:16,920
ability, right And all everyone 
has different abilities. 

251
00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:20,760
Exactly so true. 
I'm actually have been 

252
00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:26,440
incredibly grateful for having 
as much mobility issues as I've 

253
00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:29,200
had and even becoming 
immunocompromised and how much 

254
00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:31,880
that changed the way I move 
through the world. 

255
00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:38,280
Because ableism was the deepest 
ISM that I've had to deprogram 

256
00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:42,600
and getting into that, and I'm 
still haven't completely undone 

257
00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:44,720
it. 
I don't know if I ever will. 

258
00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:47,200
I don't know if I'll ever 
completely deprogram all this 

259
00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,480
white supremacy that I have been
raised with. 

260
00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:53,800
But I have been so grateful for 
seeing the world through the 

261
00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:56,920
lens of somebody who has 
mobility issues, because it's 

262
00:13:56,920 --> 00:14:00,240
really broadened the way I 
understand the world. 

263
00:14:00,680 --> 00:14:05,880
Yeah, yeah, I think like I my 
own story recently is that I've 

264
00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:08,360
been on three months of of leave
from work. 

265
00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:12,880
And I mean, three months does 
not even begin to scratch the 

266
00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:17,120
surface of my 40 years of 
pushing myself too hard. 

267
00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:22,480
And spending that little bit of 
time has really awakened me to 

268
00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:29,800
like how much stopping and 
slowing down forces you to think

269
00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:31,920
about the things that you can 
and can't do. 

270
00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:36,440
Absolutely. 
And it is kind of its own like 

271
00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:40,320
little bit flip side to the coin
of how hard it really is. 

272
00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:43,840
So I think that's really 
insightful. 

273
00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:47,920
And let's all, let's all think 
about that a little bit in our 

274
00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:52,400
lives, maybe just a little bit 
so we can show up better, right?

275
00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:55,040
Yeah, absolutely. 
That's what it's about, doing 

276
00:14:55,040 --> 00:15:00,040
the best we can to to just show 
up slightly better than we did 

277
00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:01,920
yesterday. 
Hell yeah. 

278
00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:07,040
I know that you have some really
interesting weird inner ear 

279
00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:10,760
stuff that you have that really 
affects your ability to do spins

280
00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:14,120
and turns and like spin drills. 
I'd love to hear a little bit 

281
00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:16,040
about how that affects your 
ability to dance. 

282
00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,640
Well, I have to be honest, I 
haven't had anyone for sure tell

283
00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:24,560
me what it is. 
I've been through so much trying

284
00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:27,520
to figure out what it is. 
Yeah, lately. 

285
00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:31,240
Super common by the way, like. 
Oh my God, I've been to so many 

286
00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:34,360
doctors. 
Apparently my ears are fine 

287
00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:39,960
except for there's a little 
crack in one of the tiny bones 

288
00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:43,520
in there. 
Anyways, it's a very long story,

289
00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:47,880
but what I'm discovering about 
myself now in physical therapy 

290
00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:53,080
and with lots of other info is 
my body is hyper mobile. 

291
00:15:53,640 --> 00:16:00,160
Yeah, my neck is hyper mobile. 
And I'm actually finding out now

292
00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:02,600
that I'm actually hyper mobile 
all over. 

293
00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:07,480
And my physical therapist says 
chronic pain is really common 

294
00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:08,960
for people that are hyper 
mobile. 

295
00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:15,400
And a lot of my dizziness and 
Vertigo and nausea and 

296
00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:18,000
blurriness. 
It's all to do with my neck 

297
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:19,760
having a hard time stabilizing 
itself. 

298
00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:25,320
Yeah, yeah, hypermobility is 
crazy common among dancers. 

299
00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:29,240
I think one of the reasons is 
because not only dance helps 

300
00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:33,160
your body feel good if you're in
chronic pain, but also I think 

301
00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:36,320
hypermobile people get a lot of 
validation in dance because they

302
00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:39,720
can make cool shapes. 
Absolutely, yeah. 

303
00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:42,040
And I've, I think it's been a 
really old problem. 

304
00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:44,760
I think it's one of the reasons 
I injured myself so much as a 

305
00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:46,600
volleyball player when I was a 
kid. 

306
00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:50,600
I pick stuff up really easily 
and I think, you know, I can go 

307
00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:54,000
into figures, you know, well, 
because my body can just move in

308
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,280
that way. 
It I also think it's responsible

309
00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:59,880
for how much muscle rigidity and
tension that I have because I 

310
00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:04,720
think my muscles are trying to 
do to try and reinforce my body 

311
00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,200
where it would normally just 
kind of twist out of shape or 

312
00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:11,000
whatever. 
And so this is going to be a 

313
00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:16,400
long unwinding of that and 
building up stability, really. 

314
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:19,319
So man, that's going to be a 
slow process. 

315
00:17:19,319 --> 00:17:23,800
But yeah, the the dizziness as a
dancer is really, it really 

316
00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,880
prohibits movement. 
Thanks for asking about that. 

317
00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,440
We actually have a really cool 
interview that we're going to 

318
00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:32,800
share today that we recorded 
last year. 

319
00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:38,120
We were doing this residency at 
King FM here in Seattle that let

320
00:17:38,120 --> 00:17:42,680
us use their very cool recording
booth and we were creating the 

321
00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:47,880
pilot for this podcast and we 
had Hazel Weekly disabled queer 

322
00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:50,680
dancer, come in and talk to us 
about dance. 

323
00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,080
Yeah, it was awesome. 
And just like a little bit about

324
00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:55,680
that, we've come a really far 
away in the last year because 

325
00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:59,040
like 90% of the material we 
recorded that day was just like 

326
00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:02,080
us figuring out our lives. 
And just kind of. 

327
00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:04,680
Figuring out what this would be 
and like, you know, we were 

328
00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,880
trying to be like, oh, we'll do 
like meditations every episode 

329
00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:10,320
and stuff like that. 
And it took us a while to kind 

330
00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:14,200
of realize and focus what we 
wanted this podcast to turn 

331
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:16,600
into. 
And it was really cool to go 

332
00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:20,480
back and look at that pilot, and
especially now that we've like 

333
00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:23,440
released some things and we 
realized that most of that pilot

334
00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:27,160
was not worth releasing, but 
that this interview with Hazel 

335
00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:30,280
was just so good that we wanted 
to make sure that we did an 

336
00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,760
episode focusing on it. 
Yeah, this was from 2024. 

337
00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:37,600
Let's talk a little bit about 
who the Amazing Hazel Weekly is.

338
00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,480
Hazel is one of my Lindy hopping
friends. 

339
00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:44,520
She is originally from Portland 
but is now in Seattle. 

340
00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:49,600
She is a genderqueer trans woman
dancer who was also a switch 

341
00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:55,880
dancer and she's also deaf and 
she is such a fun, wonderful, 

342
00:18:55,880 --> 00:19:01,240
generous person and has to 
navigate a lot of adversity to 

343
00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:03,320
be able to exist in the dance 
world. 

344
00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:07,120
Not only with having her gender 
be something that can take up 

345
00:19:07,120 --> 00:19:10,040
space or the way that she dances
with being a switch dancer take 

346
00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:14,160
up space, but also with her 
ability to hear the music and 

347
00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:16,040
move along with community in the
way. 

348
00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:17,360
That she hears things 
differently. 

349
00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,280
Yes. 
And another little plug for how 

350
00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:22,360
cool she is. 
You'll hear it in the interview,

351
00:19:22,360 --> 00:19:25,400
but she's also this well known 
tech person. 

352
00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:30,400
So she's a tech extraordinaire 
who gets recognized for that in 

353
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:34,320
her life more than as a dancer. 
And I just think that dynamicism

354
00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,160
is just really, it's just 
exciting when people are 

355
00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,400
bringing a lot to the table. 
Yeah, Hazel's like this super 

356
00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,480
famous, very cool tech person 
that's very well known in the 

357
00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:46,520
tech industry. 
And people don't know that she's

358
00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:49,400
actually a really a amazing, 
very cool dancer. 

359
00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:53,880
So here's the moment where, you 
know, we get to kind of show her

360
00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:58,400
alter persona as a very cool 
swing switch dancer. 

361
00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:00,560
You know, I'm just blessed to 
have her as a friend. 

362
00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:04,120
And we were very like lucky to 
be able to get her to come into 

363
00:20:04,120 --> 00:20:06,720
King FM with us and record this 
interview last year. 

364
00:20:07,120 --> 00:20:10,640
Yeah, it was, it was great. 
Shall we transition into it? 

365
00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:12,320
Let's let's hear what Hazel has 
to say. 

366
00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:14,200
Let's go ahead and hear from 
Hazel. 

367
00:20:18,360 --> 00:20:21,320
Like stereo where you look 
forward to microphones into one 

368
00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,080
channel, but then you're making 
it mono channel so it's. 

369
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:25,360
Like, yeah, it's all mono 
channel. 

370
00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:26,960
So it's like, yeah, all the same
thing. 

371
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:32,160
Anyways, Hazel, we did not come 
here today to talk auto 

372
00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:34,880
engineering. 
But let's talk more after 

373
00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:36,800
because I'm learning a lot from 
you right now. 

374
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,800
We came here to talk about dance
today and we're so excited to 

375
00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,200
have you in here as a dancer 
because you come to dance with a

376
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:49,080
lot of like a different approach
than most people because you're 

377
00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:51,040
a very unique and amazing 
person. 

378
00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,280
So we're really excited to hear.
About all of that. 

379
00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:55,920
So first of all, Hazel, why 
don't you just like, introduce 

380
00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:56,880
yourself? 
Who are you? 

381
00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:01,040
What are your pronouns? 
So hey there. 

382
00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,520
First off, I'm Hazel and I am 
really excited to be here. 

383
00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:07,960
My pronouns are see her. 
So about me, typically I 

384
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,960
introduce myself from a tech 
perspective, but from a dancing 

385
00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:15,840
perspective, I've been dancing 
off and on for about, I want to 

386
00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:21,440
say almost nine years. 
And in that time I have danced 

387
00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,320
everywhere that I can find 
pretty much. 

388
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,680
So I've danced anywhere from 
basically every major city and 

389
00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:31,120
in Washington also basically 
every major city. 

390
00:21:31,120 --> 00:21:33,200
In Oregon, half of them major 
cities. 

391
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:35,520
In Idaho I've danced. 
In Arizona, I've danced. 

392
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,960
In Tokyo, I've danced. 
Dancing in Tokyo, that's. 

393
00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:43,520
Fancy and I didn't necessarily 
plan on doing that, but it just 

394
00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:46,360
happened and. 
When in Tokyo? 

395
00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,280
When in Tokyo, go swing dancing,
right? 

396
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:51,960
Yeah. 
Did you know that I met someone 

397
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:55,600
from Boise in Tokyo? 
What a social dancer. 

398
00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:56,280
Yeah. 
Wow. 

399
00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:58,400
That's amazing. 
That's yeah. 

400
00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,680
Small world there. 
It was really funny because we 

401
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,320
just looked at each other 
because the only white people in

402
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,080
the room, right? 
Yeah, and you both happen to be 

403
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:08,560
from the Northwest? 
Yeah. 

404
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,680
And which is what's in general, 
like do I recognize you? 

405
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:13,960
Do I not recognize you? 
Do I? 

406
00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:15,960
And we're just staring inside a 
phone song in 5 seconds. 

407
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,760
And then she said Boise and I 
said I knew it. 

408
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:22,240
It's. 
So funny dance worlds like that.

409
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:24,960
You just like, you dance with 
somebody once and they leave a 

410
00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:28,000
little bit of an imprint in you 
and you can find them across the

411
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,600
world and be like, how do I know
you? 

412
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:32,920
Oh, we danced once, four years 
ago. 

413
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,000
Exactly. 
Really funny how that is. 

414
00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:39,720
I want to ask real quick because
I know you're a really fancy 

415
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,040
tech person. 
Do you want to just tell us real

416
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:44,360
quick, like what you do in your 
day job life? 

417
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,640
Yeah. 
So in my day job, I am a 

418
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,600
principal architect in the 
platform organization of my 

419
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,760
company. 
And I spend my time figuring out

420
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:58,520
how to accelerate organizations,
transform them, and then give 

421
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,240
everybody the tools in order to 
make all of their things that 

422
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:05,280
they need to emergent and 
cohesive from local decision 

423
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:07,960
making all the way up into the 
global company perspective and 

424
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:09,960
the international community as a
whole. 

425
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:14,800
I also speak internationally and
go to conferences and do pianos 

426
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,960
and talks and presentations and 
podcasts. 

427
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,760
Yeah, very fancy. 
That's why I thought you'd be 

428
00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,160
such a great person to bring on 
this podcast, just because in 

429
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:25,520
your your work life, you're a 
very public person. 

430
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,600
But I don't think you've been 
quite spotlighted so much in 

431
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:32,520
your dance life, have you? 
No, no pun, no podcasts yet in 

432
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:34,040
the dance world. 
No podcast. 

433
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:38,240
It's actually it's been funny 
because I've achieved a very 

434
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:42,440
high level of recognition in my 
career and dancing has remained 

435
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,120
one of the things where I'm like
mediocre. 

436
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,200
You think you're mediocre? 
Well, it's not the necessarily 

437
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,440
that I'm mediocre, it's that 
like I don't have name 

438
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,120
recognition the same way you're 
not as so different. 

439
00:23:53,120 --> 00:23:56,160
Upper echelon of the dance world
and stuff like that. 

440
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:57,400
Yeah, well, that's a whole 
different. 

441
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:01,040
Yeah, it's weird. 
Yeah, I've gone to conferences 

442
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:02,760
where I'm not even speaking at 
the conference. 

443
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,080
I'm just in the same town, the 
conference, and then I'm 

444
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:06,360
recognized on the street. 
Yeah. 

445
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:07,760
Wow. 
Yeah. 

446
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:09,600
But yeah. 
And then, like, the Lindy Hop 

447
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:11,640
world is like, extraordinarily 
different. 

448
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:13,840
Yeah, yeah. 
There's like not a lot of 

449
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,120
people, you know, recognizing 
normal dancers off the street. 

450
00:24:17,120 --> 00:24:20,760
They're recognizing, like Remy. 
Maybe he just recognized. 

451
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:21,640
He sticks out. 
Right. 

452
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,160
He's very distinctive. 
He's very tall, Yeah. 

453
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:28,000
Really excited to talk to you 
about gender and dance because 

454
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,800
you're trans femme and you're 
also switch dancer and you've 

455
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,960
been dancing for like a decade. 
So I really. 

456
00:24:34,120 --> 00:24:39,320
I want to know like how you feel
towards switch dancing, how you 

457
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:41,920
feel towards like leading and 
following with your gender and 

458
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:45,720
how's that changed over time. 
So that is a fascinating topic 

459
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:49,600
and I could probably go on that 
topic alone for hours. 

460
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,600
I would say that one of the 
things that was really central 

461
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:57,520
to my relationship with dance, 
even pre transition, was that I 

462
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,720
always viewed myself as a switch
dancer to the point where an 

463
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:04,840
identity as a lead was a follow,
was a foreign concert to me. 

464
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,800
And I understand that some 
people, most people identify as 

465
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,880
elite or as a follower, have a 
primary role, but my primary 

466
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:14,000
role is genuinely switched 
dancing and always has been, 

467
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,320
even from the very beginning. 
And that was something that was 

468
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,800
very intrinsic to how I wanted 
to approach things, to how I 

469
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,400
viewed the dance and how I felt 
comfortable in the dance. 

470
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,680
And looking back on that, that's
probably one of the first areas 

471
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:33,040
where my gender relationship and
everything sort of peeps through

472
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:34,440
that subconscious. 
Yeah. 

473
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,280
And Bright did that sort of 
showing up. 

474
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:39,520
I was gonna say, you're like, 
I've always wanted to be a 

475
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,440
switch dancer and I'm like, gay.
He's very gay. 

476
00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:45,800
And I'm like, I'm relating, I'm 
relating, I'm relating. 

477
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,640
One of the worst part what so I 
was talking with a friend of 

478
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,640
mine the other day and they, 
they're non binary and they came

479
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,720
out a couple years ago, but they
came out several years before I 

480
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,400
did. 
And they said they were talking 

481
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,560
with me and they said, well, you
knew for several years before 

482
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:06,960
you came out, right? 
And I said no. 

483
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,960
I I figured it out. 
And then I started transitioning

484
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,080
2 weeks later. 
Wow. 

485
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,160
I had 0. 
Not wasting time. 

486
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:16,120
Yeah. 
I was not in the closet. 

487
00:26:16,120 --> 00:26:18,160
There was no closet. 
I was in denial. 

488
00:26:18,360 --> 00:26:20,520
Yeah, I mean, that's normally 
what the closet is. 

489
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,320
It's not necessarily like 
pretending that you're not gay, 

490
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,280
although a lot of people do have
to do that. 

491
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,960
But a lot of people's experience
of being in the closet is 

492
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,440
literally like the world has gas
lit us into not realizing we 

493
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:33,720
exist. 
I think especially as trans 

494
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:35,560
people. 
I also think, you know, I think 

495
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:39,960
it's important to recognize that
it's also like we don't have 

496
00:26:40,120 --> 00:26:43,480
people or examples or around us 
for our own expression. 

497
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,720
And so like I was going to ask 
you, how did you know from the 

498
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,960
get go you were a switch dancer?
Did somebody show that to you or

499
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,440
are you that trailblazer? 
You know what I mean? 

500
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,880
Like somebody showed me what it 
was to be those things or were 

501
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,720
you just like, this is my 
understanding of who I am and 

502
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:04,280
who I want to be as a dancer. 
It was intended for me and it's 

503
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:05,640
not the case for a lot of 
people. 

504
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,400
A lot of people need to be soon 
switch dancing and maybe even 

505
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,520
convinced or cajoled into trying
it. 

506
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:16,240
But for me, I started learning 
how to dance in tri-cities. 

507
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:20,120
What's a small little town with 
the leading the scene being 

508
00:27:20,120 --> 00:27:22,280
Chris Walters. 
And he's been running the scene 

509
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:24,400
for decades and he's an amazing 
person. 

510
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:29,440
But very small town vibes and 
very small close knit scene. 

511
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,560
And even in there, I was 
basically one of the first 

512
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,000
switch dancers. 
And, and the switch dancing 

513
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,040
scene kind of started a little 
bit off of that with more people

514
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:39,880
learning it after I'd started 
doing that. 

515
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,400
But on the very first day, it 
was, oh, you can do this. 

516
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:44,840
And I'm like, OK, I want to do 
that. 

517
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,480
Yeah. 
And like month one. 

518
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:49,520
Nice. 
The very first month I was 

519
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:51,280
switching. 
That's so cool. 

520
00:27:51,360 --> 00:27:53,840
That's amazing. 
So do you feel like that was, I 

521
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,800
think I, I heard you, but I want
to just like put a pin in it 

522
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,400
that that led you to 
understanding at some point more

523
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,240
of your gender. 
So it didn't lead to 

524
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:05,200
understanding more of my gender,
but it did lead to to humorous 

525
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,400
realizations after I forget the 
gender thing. 

526
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,600
Yeah, one of those things where 
you look back and you're like. 

527
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,160
Yeah. 
So like that previous 

528
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,320
conversation that I had with my 
friend, they said you knew for 

529
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:17,760
several years. 
And I was like, no. 

530
00:28:18,120 --> 00:28:21,720
And they started laughing 
because they were like, but you 

531
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:25,320
were showing up to dances in 
dresses and heels. 

532
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,560
Yeah, for a few. 
Years, yeah, but I just liked. 

533
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,600
That I didn't know that that 
meant anything or that. 

534
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,400
Yeah, yeah. 
And it wasn't absolutely until I

535
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:40,480
started dating a woman in 
Portland, OR who had later 

536
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,640
become my ex-wife. 
Well, we got married then 

537
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:45,960
anyway. 
Normally you marry someone 

538
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,160
before you divorce them. 
You marry your ex-wife. 

539
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,240
We did. 
That, but it wasn't until they 

540
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:55,640
started getting derogatory 
comments about me that I stopped

541
00:28:55,640 --> 00:29:02,120
wearing heels as much. 
And that was sort of probably 

542
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:06,760
ironically, if I hadn't had that
interaction of the indirect 

543
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,560
negativity because I'm deaf. 
So like, I'm not gonna notice if

544
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:11,920
people, like, have side 
comments. 

545
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:13,560
Yeah, I'm just gonna live my 
life. 

546
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,680
You have to, like, into my face.
And most people in the Pacific 

547
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,040
Northwest are just not that 
fully aggressive. 

548
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:20,360
They're too passive aggressive 
for that. 

549
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:22,760
But she was hearing and, you 
know, they would make comments 

550
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,720
to her about like, oh, why is 
your boyfriend wearing heels? 

551
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,760
Like, that's weird. 
And I was like, well, I just, I 

552
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,320
would rather dance and not have 
you feel uncomfortable with 

553
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:35,960
other people coming up to you. 
So I stopped wearing heels and I

554
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:37,800
stopped wearing. 
And that probably it didn't 

555
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,160
necessarily put me in the 
closet, but it made it take 

556
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,160
longer for me to realize certain
things. 

557
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,440
Yeah, yeah, there's things like 
that where moments of shame and 

558
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:50,600
stuff like that come up and it 
just like continues to to extend

559
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,080
the cognitive dissonance between
like, I like doing this stuff 

560
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:59,360
and oh, I identify as like I can
let it into to my internal self.

561
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:01,600
Yeah. 
And I think it was, it was 

562
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,360
interesting. 
It wasn't necessarily shame for 

563
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:08,080
me, although I think that was 
part of it my very internalized.

564
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:13,920
It was a lot more of convenience
where it's like, this is where 

565
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:18,600
the difference between gender 
identity and like, so identity 

566
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,560
and your and your identity and 
trauma all like it blended into 

567
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:22,960
one giant suit. 
Yeah. 

568
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,840
Where you can't tell the 
difference between how you are 

569
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,040
because you are and how you are 
because you are shaped by the 

570
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,560
traumas, becomes the sort of the
same thing. 

571
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:35,360
And so for me, one of those was 
very much, I was disassociated 

572
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:38,040
in my entire life. 
Yeah, fairly severely, actually.

573
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,120
Like there's entire substance in
my childhood. 

574
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:41,720
I just don't remember. 
Mm hmm. 

575
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:43,880
Most of my early adulthood I 
also don't remember. 

576
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:50,760
And so part of that was this 
huge ability to go this is 

577
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:52,800
inconvenient or this is a 
problem or something. 

578
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:54,960
I'll just turn that part of me 
off. 

579
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:56,920
Yeah, right. 
Yep, Yep. 

580
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,160
Yeah, that definitely, yeah, 
rings home for me, especially 

581
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,720
the like dissociative part of it
until you start getting really 

582
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,280
comfortable in your body and 
then you can actually like 

583
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,960
TuneIn to the world around you. 
For me, I know that had a lot to

584
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,240
do with dancing too. 
I don't think that I felt 

585
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:16,080
comfortable enough in my body to
start dancing until I like came 

586
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,120
out and started understanding 
myself because I before then I 

587
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:20,440
was like, don't touch me. 
I don't know what. 

588
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,120
I am this is weird. 
Yeah. 

589
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:25,800
Do you see, is there a link 
there for you as well like when 

590
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:27,640
did that? 
Because when we talk about 

591
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,320
having repressed memory or 
things that just were not, we 

592
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,760
weren't able to carry. 
When did you be become able and 

593
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,760
how did you become able to carry
that for yourself? 

594
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:41,080
So carry it and dancing and just
carry it just in general. 

595
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,320
Yeah, just in general. 
Does it link up with dance for 

596
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:48,080
you or? 
I first exited my dissociative 

597
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:51,120
state about six months after 
transitioning. 

598
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,400
Wow. 
I believe that is 26 and I have 

599
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:59,000
been dissociated in some form or
another since my earliest 

600
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,920
memories around 3 years old. 
Wow, that is incredible. 

601
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,280
And so that's why most of my 
memories I really start. 

602
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,000
That's why we talk about things 
like gender affirming care is 

603
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,680
life saving, like literally 
because that's like a huge 

604
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:15,760
example of your mental health 
greatly improving after being 

605
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,840
able to transition, like being 
able to actually stop 

606
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,040
dissociating and like enter your
body. 

607
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:22,400
How did that change your 
dancing? 

608
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,520
So it's fascinating. 
It didn't change my dancing all 

609
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:27,400
that much. 
It changed other people's 

610
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,240
perception, dancing, which then 
and of itself changed my 

611
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,520
dancing. 
So one of the things that I 

612
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:37,240
remember thinking very clearly 
is even in the very earliest 

613
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:42,120
beginning part, there are leads 
who follow and then there are 

614
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:45,120
followers. 
Like you feel like a natural 

615
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,520
native follower, you feel like a
native lead. 

616
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,440
And I wanted to feel like a 
native follower and like a 

617
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,120
native lead I didn't want. 
To feel like a yes. 

618
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,440
I didn't want to feel like a 
woman leading or a man 

619
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:58,320
following. 
I wanted to feel like a native 

620
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,480
in both, whatever that meant. 
Yes. 

621
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:06,080
So I had the most wicked swivels
for a guy. 

622
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,680
I had swivels that would make 
women across the room go wow. 

623
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,520
Yeah, your swivels are sharp, 
but the other thing I want to 

624
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:18,000
hear talking about being in 
heels earlier, you're incredible

625
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:22,000
at dancing in very high heels. 
In Lindy Hop, no one wears a 

626
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,240
heel over like 2 1/2 inches 
maybe and you're out there in 

627
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,600
like 4 inch heels. 
Dancing Lindy Hop. 

628
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:31,560
Yeah, and she's like. 
Throwing my God too. 

629
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:33,560
I love it. 
It makes sense that you are 

630
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,160
wearing heels before you started
transitioning because you're so 

631
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,800
good. 
One love funny story about me 

632
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,200
pretty transition in heels yes 
so I was dating my ex-wife at 

633
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:47,400
the time and I had a friend of 
mine who when I showed up to the

634
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:52,680
dance in Spokane in heels, she 
said there is those are three in

635
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,960
salsa heels. 
You cannot dance Lindy Huffman 

636
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,880
3IN salsa heels yeah and I said 
just watch me yeah Oh my God, I 

637
00:33:59,960 --> 00:34:01,840
love it. 
So here I am in a three piece 

638
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:05,560
suit, 3IN salsa heels. 
Yes. 

639
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:11,040
I start over to the out of town 
instructor who is there for that

640
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:17,520
weekend and I asked him to dance
and he said sure and for some 

641
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:21,560
reason I entered like this 
transcendence Tina Bean where my

642
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,000
skill level as a follow had 
temporarily doubled. 

643
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,159
We were in that lowest state. 
We were in that magic. 

644
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,719
The band was hitting this like, 
really like, high energy, 180 

645
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:36,400
bit, 2 minute kind of thing. 
And we were just killing it to 

646
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:40,040
the point where half of the room
had stopped dancing. 

647
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:45,000
And I just kind of found around 
us watching this hot shot dude 

648
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,520
dance with this wearing asthma 
in heels. 

649
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,560
And he actually, at the end of 
the song, he took me. 

650
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,400
And then he threw me in like a 
big finish dip at the end of it.

651
00:34:56,679 --> 00:35:01,000
And I pointed my heels. 
And I was like, yeah. 

652
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:05,400
And so after that, like I was 
gassed halfway to the sun. 

653
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:07,840
I was dead like corners and 
waiting to the sun. 

654
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:13,240
So I walked back to my 
girlfriend at the time and my 

655
00:35:13,240 --> 00:35:16,440
friend who are both just 
screaming their heads off of me.

656
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:20,560
And I'm trying like physically 
to not pass out because that's 

657
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,320
how overtired I am. 
And I walk over to them and I'm 

658
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:25,120
like, how's that for dancing in 
heels? 

659
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,480
And she said, OK, fine, You Can 
Dance in heels better than me. 

660
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,600
And I hate you for it. 
I know. 

661
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,720
I'm like, teach me, teach me. 
Yeah, definitely not a heels 

662
00:35:33,720 --> 00:35:35,480
dancer. 
I would have not only like 

663
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,560
passed out from exhaustion, but 
also would have broken an ankle 

664
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,720
in that dance that we've been in
different places. 

665
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,240
I wanted to ask a little bit 
about your timing because I know

666
00:35:45,240 --> 00:35:47,720
you were living in Portland and 
then you moved to Seattle. 

667
00:35:47,720 --> 00:35:50,880
I'm just kind of curious about 
where your transition was in 

668
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,080
that. 
And then also like you're moving

669
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:54,840
from one dance scene to the 
other. 

670
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,040
How was that? 
Because you came to Seattle like

671
00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:00,480
I met you fully out and, you 
know, transitioned. 

672
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,280
So just wondering where that 
timing is? 

673
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:08,560
Yeah, so it's very interesting 
because half of Seattle knew the

674
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:12,040
old meet, right, Much less of 
them mechanized that it's me. 

675
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:16,000
But also it's pretty easy to 
figure it out because there's 

676
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,920
like 2 deaf dancers ever and I 
am both of them. 

677
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,200
That is so good. 
And we have the same last name. 

678
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:29,800
So like, I mean, yeah. 
That's incredible. 

679
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:31,920
So yeah, there that was 
something that I was a little 

680
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,920
aware of, of, of people who had 
been a dancer for a long time in

681
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:37,800
Seattle just being like, Oh my 
God, have you seen Hazel? 

682
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,280
Like they're just being like, so
happy for you because you were 

683
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:44,120
showing up more authentically 
and stuff like that. 

684
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,680
So yeah, that's, it's funny. 
You've confused a lot of people.

685
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,240
Yeah, yeah, it was, It was fun. 
It was a lot of fun because I 

686
00:36:50,240 --> 00:36:52,880
didn't warn anybody. 
Yeah, I just showed up one day 

687
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:54,760
and I was like, hi, my name is 
Hazel. 

688
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,760
And then everybody, everybody 
who knew me before dancing, I 

689
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:00,800
had fallen everything. 
I already knew my name. 

690
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:03,440
Everybody else just, like knew 
me as Hazel. 

691
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:06,960
So most of the newer generation 
of the people that started 

692
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,160
during COVID only know me as 
Hazel. 

693
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:14,240
Everybody else know it's me as 
that weirdo with like a hearing 

694
00:37:14,240 --> 00:37:17,920
doc who would go to all the 
weird events and just show up 

695
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,680
randomly and way too much energy
would sometimes dance in heels 

696
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,320
and like I'd skirt or something.
Totally, Sis. 

697
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:30,000
Oh my God, I wanna can I 
transition to ask a little bit 

698
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,280
about your hearing doc? 
Is the hearing doc what is in 

699
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:34,520
your ear? 
Is that what you're talking 

700
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:38,320
about, the physical dog? 
I would bring a dog named Lupita

701
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,280
to the dancers sometimes. 
Oh my God, that's amazing. 

702
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:42,640
I know. 
And she would lay, I'm gonna 

703
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,000
benches and I would like turn a 
little corner. 

704
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,520
I'd check in on her. 
And so everybody knew Lupita. 

705
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:51,560
Now she's very retired and she 
does not care. 

706
00:37:51,720 --> 00:37:55,680
And so she gets to stay at home 
nice and be a sleep little baby 

707
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:57,440
because she's 13 years. 
Old. 

708
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:02,960
Angel, So when you are dancing 
now, what is your relationship 

709
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:05,320
and, and I'm curious about your 
relationship to hearing the 

710
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,400
music and, and what that 
approaches for you. 

711
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,120
What is that like? 
So hearing the music is 

712
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:15,480
interesting because that goes 
into the dynamics of how my 

713
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:20,160
hearing works and then the 
dynamics of how I work, right. 

714
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:23,040
Because on paper my hearing 
isn't. 

715
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:27,840
And to any audiologist you would
ever talk to if you gave them my

716
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,560
audiogram, give them everything 
they will go. 

717
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:33,400
And this person signs they do 
not speak. 

718
00:38:33,720 --> 00:38:38,400
They do not, they are fully deaf
because wow, is 110 plus. 

719
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,440
That's the last in 40 years. 
I cause all frequencies you 

720
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:44,840
can't measure above 120 because 
that's instantly damaging. 

721
00:38:45,720 --> 00:38:49,360
So they they stop at 120 and go,
you're deaf. 

722
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:53,200
Yeah, you're beyond modern hope.
And so when I was born, the 

723
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,200
doctors tell my mom I would 
probably never learn to speak 

724
00:38:56,280 --> 00:39:00,120
and that I will be fully signing
and may never really learn how 

725
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,760
to cop a hand on you and all. 
And obviously I proved all of 

726
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:05,600
them because I can't. 
Amazing. 

727
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:07,600
Talking on a podcast as a 
dancer. 

728
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:09,880
I love that for you. 
So fucking. 

729
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:14,920
Cool. 
So that was obviously a lifelong

730
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:18,840
process for you. 
And when you started dancing, 

731
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:22,480
why did you choose swing? 
So I chose, I didn't necessarily

732
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:26,400
choose swing dancing. 
I was in college and I knew I 

733
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,480
wanted to do dancing of some 
sort, but it was like a latent 

734
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:33,600
subconscious thought. 
And so I saw a poster on a 

735
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,280
bulletin board somewhere that 
said, oh, swing dancing. 

736
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:38,280
And I said, awesome, I'll try 
that one. 

737
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:41,960
And then I went to there. 
Everyone was terrible. 

738
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:43,920
Imagine the worst college you've
ever seen. 

739
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:46,440
It's fine. 
Someone there loved it. 

740
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:49,880
Went home and then immediately 
did the thing that I always do, 

741
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:53,320
which is I impulsively 
researched the entire topic and 

742
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:55,880
read everything on the Internet 
about nice. 

743
00:39:56,240 --> 00:39:59,480
Big Lindy hop Internet hole you 
can go down, yeah. 

744
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:02,240
Yeah, I went down all of it. 
Nice, yeah. 

745
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,520
I had read, I want to say about 
80% of publicly find more 

746
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:07,040
information on the Internet at 
that time. 

747
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:10,040
Yeah. 
And then I was like, oh, it's 

748
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:13,160
Danny Sweeney nearby. 
And there was Chinese sentences,

749
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:16,480
which was an hour away. 
So I went there an hour away and

750
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,120
showed up and I was like, oh, 
I'm going to do this. 

751
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,040
And then having looked at a lot 
of the other dance styles and 

752
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:25,520
having downloaded a bunch of 
things, I personally really like

753
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:30,600
swing dancing because of the 
structure itself and because of 

754
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:34,480
a culture it originated from and
the stories that it originated 

755
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:38,480
from. 
And the fact that swing dancing 

756
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:45,760
feels inherently like a dance of
tension, like a dance of riding 

757
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:50,200
that line of discord. 
Because to swing a beat, you 

758
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:52,600
take a beat and you take 
something that is steady and 

759
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:56,120
stable, and they make it 
unstable to the point where it's

760
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,240
about to collapse. 
And then you go just before 

761
00:40:59,240 --> 00:41:01,960
that, and that's a swing beat. 
That's kind of what it feels 

762
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:07,040
like dancing with you sometimes.
Not all the time, but when we're

763
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:10,600
really throwing down, it's like 
you ride it as hard as you can 

764
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:15,480
before it breaks. 
And that's been my entire life 

765
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,760
where I've always been on the 
very, very edge of the Cliff 

766
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:20,080
riding the lightning. 
Yeah. 

767
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:25,640
And that's just how I am. 
And that's how the particular 

768
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:28,640
flavour of tonic where that I 
kind of like ended up in. 

769
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:31,560
We are all kind of ride the 
lightning type of people. 

770
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:36,680
And so finding a dance where the
dance is in tension with itself 

771
00:41:36,720 --> 00:41:40,760
and where the culture is that of
tension against the mainstream 

772
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:44,320
and sort of being true to 
something and feeling this 

773
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:48,120
conflict between a bunch of very
difficult topics and being very 

774
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:53,360
open to not embracing the norm 
and finding a unique way to 

775
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:57,000
express something in yourself 
without breaking those the dance

776
00:41:57,600 --> 00:41:59,840
and giving yourself a huge 
amount of want. 

777
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:02,520
Civility. 
Yeah, that really appeals to me.

778
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:06,000
That's definitely very Lindy hop
like there's I mean, that's as 

779
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:08,920
like we have these very simple 
rules play. 

780
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:12,000
I want to ask a little bit more 
about having hearing disability 

781
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,080
and then being a dancer and 
being able to hear. 

782
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:17,600
First of all, do you experience 
any discrimination or any 

783
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:21,520
barriers with going to dance 
socials or classes or anything 

784
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:24,000
like that with your hearing? 
Yes and no. 

785
00:42:24,720 --> 00:42:27,200
So I haven't necessarily 
experienced people not wanting 

786
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:30,480
to dance with me. 
I do sometimes experience people

787
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,400
thinking that I'm much less 
skilled than I am because I 

788
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:36,280
didn't happen to hear the beat 
on this one song. 

789
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:41,920
And if DJs play songs that are 
older original records, those 

790
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:44,320
are often much harder to hear 
because the audio quality is 

791
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:45,920
worse. 
And then there's fans going on 

792
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:48,440
at some speakers, and it's just 
a horrific idea. 

793
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:52,560
There's also an intention there 
of the older original records 

794
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:55,280
tend to be more black and the 
newer records tend to be more 

795
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:58,520
white artists. 
So I tend to unintentionally 

796
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,080
bias myself towards white music 
artists, and I don't like that. 

797
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:04,800
Yeah, I bias myself towards 
clear audio quality and where I 

798
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:08,040
can actually hear the baseline. 
Yeah, but that ends up being 

799
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:12,080
that like, I can dance to about 
20% of Ella Fitzgerald and the 

800
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:16,160
rest of it I hope for the best. 
Yeah, yeah. 

801
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,640
What about, like, leading versus
following? 

802
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:24,200
Is it easier to enjoy a dance 
that you can hear maybe less 

803
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:26,240
well with somebody who's leading
you? 

804
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:29,200
It's easier in different ways 
and harder in different ways. 

805
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:33,080
Yeah. 
So with leading, I have to, I 

806
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:35,560
really, really pay attention to 
my own pulse and really, really 

807
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:38,600
pay attention to the timing. 
I can't ever really screw it up.

808
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:41,880
I have to stay on beat and I 
can't really rely on the follow 

809
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:45,880
because as you get better as a 
follow, you learn to follow your

810
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:49,240
lead regardless of the beat. 
And I like to change to the 

811
00:43:49,240 --> 00:43:52,160
followers who stay on beat 
regardless of where I am. 

812
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:54,720
So I can correct to them. 
But that lists the opposite 

813
00:43:54,720 --> 00:43:56,320
dynamic of most followers, 
right? 

814
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:58,240
Right. 
So I need essentially the power 

815
00:43:58,240 --> 00:44:02,120
bottom of followers. 
Love. 

816
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,160
So as you mentioned, the bass 
line is the bass line. 

817
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:09,800
You're like framework for 
finding the beat in the music. 

818
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:14,440
It is. 
So when I listen to swing jazz, 

819
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:18,480
I'm listening for the energy 
piece and where they are. 

820
00:44:18,720 --> 00:44:23,920
And so we have three energy 
piece in swing jazz, which I 

821
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:26,920
didn't know there were three 
until like a couple months ago. 

822
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:29,720
Well, as I finally started being
able to hear the third one for 

823
00:44:29,720 --> 00:44:31,560
the first time. 
There's there's three, there's 

824
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:35,040
the one and the three. 
Which of the main energy piece 

825
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:36,920
now to what? 
The jazz horns really coming on.

826
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:39,400
And then you have the two and 
the four. 

827
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:42,240
And that's the backbeat. 
And that is the less essentially

828
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:44,480
the bead. 
But if you listen to swing jazz 

829
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,320
enough, it feels like the more 
accentuated beat because that's 

830
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:50,280
where all the energy momentum 
generates. 

831
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:52,440
You have the 1/2. 
Yeah. 

832
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:56,200
Right. 
And so I end up hearing the less

833
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:59,240
energy is the higher energy 
because that's where like I feel

834
00:44:59,240 --> 00:45:03,400
the urge to shift momentum. 
But if there's no clear two and 

835
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:07,480
four and I'm really only hearing
the one and the three, then I 

836
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:09,120
can lose where the two and the 
four is. 

837
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:12,440
Or I can hear the 1:00 and 3:00 
as the two and the four, right, 

838
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:15,320
for the energy piece. 
And if some are missing, my 

839
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:17,920
brain's just going to go and 
shifted over. 

840
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:21,040
And then there's a third one 
that I didn't know about, which 

841
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:22,960
is intentionally designed to 
screw me over. 

842
00:45:23,720 --> 00:45:28,800
So the third one is apparently 
there's the drum bass line, then

843
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:32,040
there's the bass bass line. 
And due to how audio dynamics 

844
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:35,520
work, the bass bass line can be 
anywhere from directly 

845
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:39,840
resonating at the peak at the 
same time as the drum, or about 

846
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:43,320
20 milliseconds behind or about 
20 milliseconds ahead, depending

847
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:47,920
on whether or not the bees is 
sitting behind the pocket or in 

848
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:53,080
the front pocket where the bass 
dum vaguely defines the pocket, 

849
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:56,560
plus or minus. 
And so I'm like, I had never 

850
00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:57,920
really heard the bass line 
before. 

851
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:01,400
I don't always heard the dums 
and the dums or so if I didn't 

852
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:04,280
have the dums, I was rude. 
And then I'm listening to songs 

853
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:09,000
with three distinct different 
pieces of energy, the bass line,

854
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:12,760
the other bass line, and then 
the singers in the jazz, and 

855
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:14,880
they're like 3 or 4 different 
pockets of energy. 

856
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:18,760
And it becomes very noisy for 
me, for hearing people. 

857
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:21,840
It just sounds like a rhythmic 
combustive energy where you're 

858
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:23,960
sort of almost double jumping 
the beat and you're going 

859
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:27,720
through and this really goes up 
and has this nice wave to it 

860
00:46:27,720 --> 00:46:30,480
feels like a rumbly energy. 
I don't get the rumbly energy. 

861
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:35,000
I just get noise. 
And I found out that so in the 

862
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,320
swing pocket, when you're 
relaxing the beat, you're 

863
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:39,120
actually on the baseline, you're
not on the drum line. 

864
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:42,680
OK, I hear the drum line 
stapling what the baseline was 

865
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:45,240
that nail it based on a line 
that I didn't put in here and 

866
00:46:45,240 --> 00:46:46,800
didn't even know it existed. 
Mm hmm. 

867
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:49,560
And I can kind of hear it 
sometimes in certain songs and 

868
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:52,880
it messes with me every time 
because I then go about 20 

869
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:56,040
milliseconds behind that line 
and then I'm off, right, because

870
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:59,360
now it's slightly ahead of the 
other two four. 

871
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:03,400
So that kind of like pulls like 
the swing and like the groove 

872
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:05,600
out of it for your movement. 
Yeah, yeah. 

873
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:08,080
It's really interesting and and 
it's incredible. 

874
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:12,520
You know so much about music. 
And I had, yeah, I was gonna say

875
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:16,320
that must have been a needs must
for you as a passionate dancer. 

876
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:18,640
It was a must. 
And the reason for that is 

877
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:23,720
because I typically only hear 
about reliably 5 to 10% of the 

878
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,600
song. 
God, I hear, you know, like 75% 

879
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:29,480
of the song, but I don't know if
I'm hearing it accurately or if 

880
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:32,200
I'm hearing people's feet or if 
I'm hearing just people talking 

881
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:35,400
or just noise or echo or 
anything else. 

882
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:38,280
No idea. 
But the song, I hear about 5 to 

883
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:41,680
10% of it accurately. 
And so I need to be able to the 

884
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:44,600
whole rest of it from that, 
which is also a huge reason why 

885
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:48,600
I like jazz, because despite it 
being very varied, there's a lot

886
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:52,280
of very basic jazz rhythms. 
And musicians have such a 

887
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:55,240
beautiful talent of being 
flexible with staying in it. 

888
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:57,560
Yeah. 
Staying in the structure and 

889
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:00,200
staying in a way that you know 
everything is going. 

890
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:04,920
So I actually, I've somehow 
developed a reputation. 

891
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:08,000
I said if I was it being a 
musical lead, which is hilarious

892
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:11,840
to me because I can hear, you 
know, less than 1/4 of the song 

893
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:15,480
and I'm just knowing the music 
theory and knowing, let's not 

894
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:17,000
say the song where it's going to
go. 

895
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:21,040
And then I hear of the 1st 4 
counts I missed in that 17 1/2. 

896
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:25,400
I hear something I'm a half 
being off and I go oh, and then 

897
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:28,960
so I just stretched my mat step 
into a 3 1/2 beat swing out. 

898
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:32,880
Then I catch it back in and I I 
do all this stuff subconsciously

899
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:34,560
and people go, oh, that was 
really nice. 

900
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:37,640
You smashed it. 
I'm like, I got unlost is what I

901
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:40,400
did. 
Do you think in a few sentences 

902
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:45,000
you could just leave us with 
what you what you want for the 

903
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:48,520
dance world moving forward as a 
person in it? 

904
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:52,400
What would change if it could 
for you, for the dance world? 

905
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:57,240
What I would say is there's a 
certain type of inclusivity that

906
00:48:57,240 --> 00:49:01,360
comes with embracing the fact 
that people are different and 

907
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:03,960
sometimes in fundamentally 
incompatible ways. 

908
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:08,520
Figuring out how to embrace the 
tension and make things work 

909
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:11,440
without trying to get everything
homogeneous. 

910
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:13,440
Yeah. 
Brings a lot of beauty into the 

911
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:15,720
dance world. 
And being able to embrace the 

912
00:49:15,720 --> 00:49:18,960
different communities and 
uncomfortable Turks that come 

913
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:22,080
with having different 
communities can get you to a 

914
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:25,000
place where you can approach 
things as equals better than 

915
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:28,920
having to approach things as 
being in stakeholders. 

916
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:30,560
You don't have to be a 
stakeholder. 

917
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:32,640
You don't have have to win and 
lose. 

918
00:49:32,720 --> 00:49:34,000
Doesn't have to be 0 or 
something. 

919
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:36,560
Beautiful. 
Love that. 

920
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:38,520
That's an incredible thing to 
end on. 

921
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:41,840
I love thinking about how 
tension that is, like what gets 

922
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:44,680
us the really good stuff. 
Especially as Lindy Hoppers, you

923
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:47,200
need the tension to get the good
stuff. 

924
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:53,480
Well, thank you so much for 
joining us last year, Hazel. 

925
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:56,360
I appreciate you still wanting 
us to share that interview. 

926
00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:59,680
And it was just a delight to dig
that out of our archives and be 

927
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:01,120
able to share it with all of you
today. 

928
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:03,600
Yeah, that's that's it for us 
today. 

929
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:06,880
Thank you again to Hazel. 
Go ahead and leave us a review 

930
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:08,920
on your favorite podcasting 
platform. 

931
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:10,640
We'd love to hear what you have 
to say. 

932
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:12,880
Absolutely would love to hear 
what you say. 

933
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:15,920
That also just helps get the 
good word of de gender dance out

934
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:18,560
there and more people 
discovering this podcast. 

935
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:21,360
And then also, even though we 
are divested from everyone's 

936
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:25,080
favorite society destroying 
social media app, Instagram can 

937
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:27,720
still find our profile there 
which is de gender under score 

938
00:50:27,720 --> 00:50:30,120
dance. 
Yeah, we use it sometimes for 

939
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:33,120
stuff. 
You know, dance, sometimes dance

940
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:36,240
and stuff. 
And all love letters, 

941
00:50:36,240 --> 00:50:39,960
suggestions and of course, our 
favorite hate mail can go to 

942
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:44,280
dgenderdance@gmail.com. 
That's it for us today. 

943
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:46,960
Thank you so much for tuning in.
Thanks y'all, bye.