1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:06,600 5678 rock step triple step rock. Step cha cha cha. 2 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:13,400 Cha cha hi, my name is Kate and my pronouns are they them? 3 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:16,040 And my name is Lou, and my pronouns are also they them. 4 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:19,160 Just two they thems talking about dance. 5 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,240 Dance and stuff. Dance and stuff. 6 00:00:22,240 --> 00:00:26,800 OK Lou, welcome. Hello, today we have an amazing 7 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:30,200 guest. Her name is Ratsami and she uses 8 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:33,040 she her pronouns. Ratsami is a West Coast swing 9 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:36,120 dancer, ADJ. And teacher, a woman of color 10 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:39,720 and cultural educator. She helps communities transform 11 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:42,800 their approach to accessibility and justice through cultural 12 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:44,760 understanding and community building. 13 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:48,320 She works with many West Coast swing organizations including 14 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:52,640 Seattle Swing Dance Club, Easter Swing, and Boogie by the Bay. 15 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:56,200 So welcome, Ratsami. Hello, welcome. 16 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,200 Thank you for being here today. Thanks, Lou. 17 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:01,160 I'm so glad to have been invited. 18 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:03,360 I, I'm so honored. Thank you for having me. 19 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:06,920 Yes, we're so excited to have you here and have someone that's 20 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:10,600 like knowledgeable of West Coast here because Kate is a salsa 21 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:15,080 dancer and I am a Lindy Hopper. So this is one of the first 22 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:17,840 episodes where we get to dive into a like a new form of dance 23 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:19,360 and learn a little bit ourselves. 24 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:22,840 Hey, that's exciting. Yeah. 25 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:27,280 And then you do a lot of DEI work in the West Coast world. 26 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:30,520 We'd love to hear a little bit of how did you get started in 27 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:32,320 that? Yeah. 28 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:34,040 Thanks. Thanks again. 29 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:36,040 I'm just so honored to be here. I'm just so excited. 30 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:39,000 I've been listening to some previous episodes and just kind 31 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:43,440 of seeing what y'all been doing. So DEI and my work, it kind of 32 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:47,680 was my day-to-day job. I worked in an advisory role 33 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:52,080 for, for corporate and around that same time I was actively 34 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:55,880 competing and, and organizing events and making sure that I 35 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:59,080 was building an inclusive and diverse community. 36 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:02,560 And through that work, it was, I was able to kind of bridge the, 37 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:06,840 the two things in my life. And you know, where I was, I was 38 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:09,199 doing it for a living, but also being able to do it for a 39 00:02:09,199 --> 00:02:12,840 community and a hobby that I so cherished and valued and loved. 40 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:19,960 And so in a lot of my work, I, I joined a, an initiative called 41 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:23,840 Swing diversity and they had kind of launched in 2021 and I 42 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:28,080 was one of the first board members for this diet DI 43 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,720 initiative for West Coast Swing. And so being on the board, 44 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:35,800 helping them build up their program and, and trying to 45 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:40,800 amplify a lot of initiatives and, and inclusivity practices 46 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:44,520 and, and movement towards a justice centered hobby, because 47 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:48,400 that wasn't happening in West Coast Wing where it is, 48 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:52,960 unfortunately, I'm very whitewashed and being moved away 49 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:56,120 from its origins of, of black social dance. 50 00:02:56,120 --> 00:03:01,080 So, so that was a, a large part of my, my role is kind of 51 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:05,120 initiating and being a part of that DI initiative through swing 52 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:08,320 diversity. And then being able to take that 53 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:11,480 on within my own community and using my experience and 54 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:16,080 expertise here in Seattle with, you know, the various 55 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:18,800 organizations, especially Seattle Swing Dance Club, which 56 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:21,000 is the longest running dance club in the world. 57 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,320 It's been around since 1960. Five. 58 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:26,520 That's so cool. Yeah, I'm, I'm the first woman 59 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:29,600 of color president. I was president for five for 60 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:33,480 five years and and start, you know, I kind of took us through 61 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:35,320 COVID. That was a wild time. 62 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:36,440 That's it. It was. 63 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:37,840 Really. Thank you for doing that. 64 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,440 As a dance organizer, that was a hard time to keep it alive. 65 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:41,600 Everything alive? Yeah. 66 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:46,720 It, it really was and, and, and I do owe it to a team. 67 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:50,000 It wasn't just me, it was a team of the other board of directors 68 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:54,160 through volunteers that are just putting their passion and and 69 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:58,040 time to keep the longest running swing dance club alive, 70 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,120 essentially. So, so a lot of my work between 71 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:05,520 DI and West Coast swing was just a bridge between just my 72 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:09,440 personal and then to, to my professional life. 73 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:14,000 And, and seeing that how to come Currently, I, I have decided to 74 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:19,880 take a step back based due to just current world affairs and, 75 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:25,480 and being able to avoid burnout and establish some, some 76 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,400 boundaries and peace within my own well-being. 77 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:34,040 But the work that I've, I've seen and that has maybe 78 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:39,440 developed from, you know, the past five years since I've, I've 79 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,880 started bridging the two DI and West Coast swing, it's, there's 80 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:45,720 been positive gains. And of course, as you know, 81 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:49,320 there's always more work to do. So it's just, it's, it's going 82 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:52,960 to be continued work. And I, I think the influence 83 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:56,200 that I, I, I have the privilege of, to have in our community 84 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:00,480 that's been able, I'm, I've been able to amplify a lot of things 85 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:04,120 that I'm passionate about, but also to, to provide opportunity 86 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:06,560 for, for marginalized dancers. And that's always been my 87 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:08,880 passion. So cool. 88 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,600 I, I love that. And I want to kind of get back. 89 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:14,440 I want to loop back to the burnout piece and like what it 90 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:19,920 means to step away and pass the baton hopefully to someone else 91 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:22,280 who's going to take over the work that you're doing if you're 92 00:05:22,280 --> 00:05:23,920 stepping back. But I want to go back. 93 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:30,560 Is it common for there to be DEI in specific dance scenes or is 94 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,160 this kind of a West Coast swing specific? 95 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:36,080 I just, I don't. Or is it a youth specific? 96 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:39,080 Or is it a youth specific thing? I don't have that in my salsa 97 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:42,360 community that I'm aware of. And so I'm just curious if 98 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,360 you've seen other places or or how that's felt to be kind of a 99 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:51,560 pioneer. I, I love that question with my, 100 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:55,000 I kind of, you know, frame and perspective and only experience 101 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:59,520 in West Coast Swing. I will say that West Coast Swing 102 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:03,880 is maybe one of the one of the only ones I I know that among 103 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:06,480 other communities, you know, I, I'm a little adjacent to Zook. 104 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:09,760 I have some crossover friends and a lot of community work and 105 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:13,520 but West Coast swing I I see has done. 106 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:20,080 There's I'm a put asterisk here that I have seen in the work in 107 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:26,720 the optics of of it kind of in in a public facing way with 108 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:31,200 that's an asterisk because a lot of DI work should be not 109 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:33,440 performative. That that's that's how that's 110 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:35,760 how you can that's how you make the most progress and change 111 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:38,880 right. If there's a lot of change, 112 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:42,320 that's not that should not be public facing. 113 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:44,520 There's there's so much leadership. 114 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:47,680 Yeah, exactly. More well, there's more action 115 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:52,520 than than than the talk. So, so with that said, I, I do 116 00:06:52,520 --> 00:07:02,400 notice that West Coast Wing has more of, of a scene within DII 117 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:05,160 guess if I were to, if I were to observe it from my own 118 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:07,640 experience. But again, I am operating from 119 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:11,440 kind of this bias perspective where I'm, I, I only have been 120 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:15,160 entrenched in West Coast swing. I do want to say though, I want 121 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,320 to acknowledge that I know that the Blues and the fusion scene 122 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:23,200 has done a lot of work in consent culture in, in 123 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:27,680 inclusivity practices that I, I, I want to give kudos to that 124 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:31,840 West Coast Wing has borrowed a lot of their community practices 125 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:35,280 and, and in leadership development that we've, that 126 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:39,120 we've received through their experience. 127 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,760 So, so it's, it's kind of been an homage to the Blues and the 128 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:47,160 fusion community. But I do want to, I do notice 129 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:52,040 the I work within West Coast swing because of my own, you 130 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:54,520 know, perspective and framework and of the experience that I 131 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:58,120 have. So I really can't say what the 132 00:07:58,160 --> 00:07:59,640 other communities. But Sharon, you know, Kate, you 133 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:02,840 mentioned you didn't really see that in in salsa and and I 134 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:05,840 haven't either, so. And like Lindy, Top definitely 135 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,680 also has a culture of we've taken also a lot from Blues and 136 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:11,920 fusion with consultant consent as well. 137 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:14,720 We do a lot to try and recognize the roots and history of the 138 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:18,120 dance, but it doesn't that's a little bit more talk and a 139 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:21,800 little less walk like I see a little less of like doing a lot 140 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:24,920 of the groundwork to be able to make sure that everyone's 141 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:27,320 feeling included. I've seen more of it actually in 142 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:31,760 the Balboa community is really, really working at making sure 143 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:34,320 that that people feel a little bit more comfortable walking in 144 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:37,440 the door and being accepted. But it really sounds like you're 145 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:41,760 bringing a lot of like this professional DEI like Jedi type 146 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:47,320 stuff to to the dance world in a little bit more of like a full 147 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:50,360 form way than a lot of other communities are doing. 148 00:08:51,560 --> 00:08:55,480 Right, yeah, I, I, and I think I spoke a little bit earlier 149 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:59,120 about, you know, I, I use this as an opportunity because I have 150 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:02,720 a background expertise in it where I'm able to do that. 151 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:06,680 And I think that's because I, I'm able to do in West Coast 152 00:09:06,680 --> 00:09:11,320 swing because I do West Coast swing and, and, and I do, you 153 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:13,680 know, community organizing. So I'm able to connect with 154 00:09:13,680 --> 00:09:16,680 other organizers because because I, I have, I travel over the 155 00:09:16,680 --> 00:09:20,000 world and I know all these, you know, people within very niche 156 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:22,080 West Coast swing communities. So it's, it's kind of this 157 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:26,400 networking and, and having opportunity providing and 158 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:32,040 offering it because of who I am and my background versus maybe a 159 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:35,200 different community in my contracting me in a way that 160 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:37,480 hasn't that's kind of been happening. 161 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:42,680 You know, I've been contacted by by the Portland Blues Dance Club 162 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:48,000 and so there's, there's a lot of enmeshing happening. 163 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:52,320 But right now my main experience has been prioritizing and 164 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:55,360 focusing on West Coast thing because I'm so entrenched and 165 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:56,640 involved in it. Yeah. 166 00:09:57,400 --> 00:09:58,760 That's your main community, right? 167 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:02,800 Exactly, it is my main commute. I am trying to cross train in a 168 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,520 Zook I mentioned earlier. I would love to, I would love 169 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:09,040 to, to devote more time, but life be life. 170 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:12,520 And so I know so many Zook dancers that are also passionate 171 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:15,840 about West Coast Swing. They're both so smooth dances. 172 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:18,160 So yeah, it seems like symbiotic there. 173 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:20,640 Yeah. So what are some of these DEI 174 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:22,920 wins that you've had? Like what's some of the, the, 175 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:25,680 The Walking that you've done with the organizations? 176 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:32,120 Yeah, I, I will say it's again, a lot of the, The Walking is, is 177 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,640 leadership development. It's it's a lot of, you know, we 178 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:40,840 if you think about the top down, the top down effect is, is much 179 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:44,720 more impactful if it was even even though I individual work 180 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:47,760 and change is so meaningful and impactful. 181 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:51,600 It it, it is important to have, you know, to have internal 182 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:56,880 change and and awareness, but it is so much more important when 183 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:00,840 you are able to develop organizers and leaders of a 184 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:06,160 scene because they have kind of this automated influence in a 185 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:09,040 way, you know, they're the ones putting on an event. 186 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:12,040 So an event can then bring hundreds or thousands of 187 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:17,640 dancers, but when you can reach a leader and organizer and help 188 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:22,960 develop their skills when in in creating an inclusive dance 189 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:27,640 opportunity, an event, a social, you know, that's how you're 190 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,560 you're reaching a lot. It's so so for example, in my 191 00:11:30,560 --> 00:11:36,360 work with Seattle Sing Dance Club, being on the board, a lot 192 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:41,920 of this logistical consultation comes from, you know, why are we 193 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:45,440 doing it this way and, and how can we change it or what kind of 194 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:49,000 initiatives or new projects or programs do we want to do? 195 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:52,440 And then me bringing my my DI lens to it. 196 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:58,640 You know, a big thing with hobby communities is, you know, 197 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:03,640 financial barriers and, and access to, to dance and as an 198 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:07,520 opportunity. So, you know, we implemented 199 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:11,840 some some discounts for marginalized communities and, 200 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:14,800 and making sure that that's accessible to them, you know, 201 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:19,560 making sure that we're reaching students that don't have 202 00:12:19,560 --> 00:12:23,280 disposable income, for example. So I'll so a lot of this comes 203 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:29,080 from the framework of how to again, walk in walk. 204 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:31,320 It's all behind the scenes. It's like how we're rebuilding 205 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:36,040 these initiatives and programs, but versus maybe publicly 206 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:40,520 acknowledging some some diverse practices or inclusivity. 207 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:45,880 So Seattle Soon Dance Club has been a huge part of, of my work 208 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:51,560 and, and being a key consultant, being on the board and my work 209 00:12:51,560 --> 00:12:53,280 with Easter swing. You know, Easter swing is 210 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:55,600 essentially it's they're one of the same. 211 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:58,520 I will say that Easter swing is an event of Seattle swing dance 212 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:00,480 club. So, but that's an and that 213 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:06,320 Easter swing has been run for 30 plus years and, and the same 214 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:08,200 thing. Easter swing is a weekend 215 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:10,720 convention. So again, we, when you talk 216 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:14,920 about developing leadership, how, how are you developing the 217 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:20,640 executive decision that you're making to, to provide this 218 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:26,360 weekend of teaching, of socializing, of, of dance 219 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:29,960 opportunity to thousands of dancers from all across the 220 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:32,560 world. You know, people from all across 221 00:13:32,560 --> 00:13:36,240 the world come to, to Bellevue every year to, to participate 222 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:39,160 Easter swing. So a big win. 223 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:43,840 I, I will, I, I will acknowledge is, is the leadership is, is 224 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:47,280 going to be huge because of that top down and trickle down 225 00:13:48,680 --> 00:13:52,240 within, within their development and within their leadership to 226 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:56,280 then influence that across the community that they are creating 227 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,320 opportunities for. Amazing. 228 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:03,080 And I feel like that also. Well, I want to ask about you 229 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:06,640 stepping back a little bit because that building of 230 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:09,960 leadership is also what allows people like you to pass the 231 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:14,720 baton and to have other people that are prepared to take this 232 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:18,440 kind of work on. Do you feel like is, I'm sure 233 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:22,280 that's challenging in a way to do that, but is it feeling like 234 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:24,680 there's other folks that can step in and do what you've been 235 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:28,400 doing? I, I do feel that yes, 236 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:32,160 thankfully, thankfully because of I mentioned earlier, but 237 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:35,000 that, you know, the networking and, and, and building kind of a 238 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:37,240 community of practice is so important. 239 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:42,280 Having folks know that you, that they're your people in a way and 240 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:46,840 that you can trust them. And so based on my experience 241 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:51,280 and kind of my role across the community, I, I feel like I, I 242 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:54,640 built that network and then trusting those people to take 243 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:56,480 that. Like you mentioned, taking the 244 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:59,000 baton. For example, we have a, a new 245 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:03,920 president for the Seattle swing Dance Club that I consult a lot 246 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:05,520 with. It's my last year as a board 247 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:07,840 member. So it's, it's kind of, again, 248 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:12,440 this is about the perfect time to, I, I feel safe and, and, and 249 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:16,360 confident in, in their abilities to, to, to take on the role of 250 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:18,600 the president. They've done a great job so far. 251 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,440 And, and they, they're seeking feedback, they're seeking 252 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,080 historical, you know, institutional knowledge. 253 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:27,440 I mean, all that stuff is so important as we know history, 254 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:30,480 you know, is important to acknowledge and learn from and, 255 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:33,520 and, and the West Coast Wing is no different for sure now. 256 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:40,200 That's so cool to hear that there is a a sense of sharing 257 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:43,760 the leadership because I do think that is so much. 258 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:47,560 What's needed in the dance world is sharing of resources, 259 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:50,600 feedback, feedback loops that actually create change. 260 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:55,160 That's huge. Yeah, I, I also, you know, I, I 261 00:15:55,160 --> 00:16:00,040 want to go back to your question or, or piece about my own 262 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:06,760 personal decision to step back and, and it at I for me, it 263 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:10,760 would definitely amplified with the, the change of 264 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:15,160 administration and it kind of and a lot of blow out from, 265 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:20,280 from, you know, initiatives that, you know, if I named DII 266 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:22,920 felt it was targeted, you know, I felt like I was targeted, 267 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:26,920 especially as a person of color, as a woman of color as, as, and 268 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:31,280 you know, and so so based on that decision, it was, it was a 269 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:35,360 way of a personal protection. Honestly, even though there's a 270 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:38,640 lot of things that I am continuing doing, it's just a 271 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:46,720 little less public and, and visible, I guess because of just 272 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:50,040 things that, you know, I just don't feel safe as a 273 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:55,320 practitioner of colour doing the work because I've gotten public 274 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:57,440 backlash. I, I've received off, you know, 275 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:00,840 I get trolled on all this stuff. I, you know, I've seen it all 276 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:04,800 and there's just a moment where it's like I, I just can't do it 277 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,359 anymore. It's just not, it's I, it's not 278 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:11,280 worth my own personal well-being because if I can't show up in 279 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:13,960 the space that then I, then that impacts the work. 280 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:16,319 So there is, so that's kind of give and take there. 281 00:17:16,319 --> 00:17:20,000 So I had to take a step back from the public work to, to then 282 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:23,440 focus on kind of that behind the scenes, walking, walking the 283 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:25,480 walk, I think. Yeah, yeah. 284 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:30,200 And that's just heartbreaking too, that you receive so much 285 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:34,880 backlash with just the way that our world is functioning right 286 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:37,720 now because you're doing so much good work to actually make this 287 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:42,520 more accessible for everybody. And I also really love that what 288 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:47,920 I'm hearing about how you've done so much to set up any 289 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:53,000 leadership to be successful and to be able to have a very 290 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,520 inclusive community. So then you can have someone 291 00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:00,680 else do that emotional labor because really like it's white 292 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:02,160 people. Like it wouldn't be great if the 293 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,080 white men were like putting in that amount. 294 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:06,400 It wouldn't be great if they were the one fighting the trolls 295 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,960 and stuff like that. So I love that you have made 296 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:13,000 space for yourself to be able to take that. 297 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:16,360 And like a question on the burnout, because it's so common 298 00:18:16,360 --> 00:18:20,560 for dance leaders to get burnt out, dance leaders of all kind 299 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:23,560 to get burnt out. I kind of how does it intersect 300 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:25,720 with your dancing? Have you still been in the 301 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:28,560 ballrooms even though you're getting burnt out on the DEI? 302 00:18:29,120 --> 00:18:31,400 Yes, that's, see, that's the great question. 303 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:38,480 It's the I I for me, I, I feel like I, I have to, I don't want 304 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:40,000 to say have to how do I say this? 305 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:45,160 I, I feel like I, I, I have to prioritize dancing because that 306 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:49,400 that's always been my first and foremost love and reason why a 307 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:50,960 social dancing. It's social dancing. 308 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:53,520 While you're there. It's why I started, it's why 309 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,800 it's how I got here, right? And so, so for me, I, I have to 310 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:01,240 think about how can I show up? My best self is, is doing things 311 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:02,840 that I love and that are good for me. 312 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:05,800 And that's going out social, dancing in a community. 313 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:08,200 That is why I'm here in the 1st place. 314 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:11,840 So I, I do, you know, I go out two to three nights a week now. 315 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:15,080 That's kind of yeah, I still, I still actively do that. 316 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:18,560 I did take a break for a while for other personal decisions. 317 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:22,920 But for me it's, it's, it's like I, I always have to revert back 318 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:26,080 to like, why am I here? Like, why did I, why did I do 319 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:28,080 this in the 1st place? It's the love for social 320 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:30,400 dancing. It's the love for the dance that 321 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:34,920 you know, that I, I want to show others and on, on the greatness 322 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:38,960 of, of, you know, of what it is. So, so thankfully, yes, I, I am 323 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:43,960 prioritizing dance because of, of, you know, the benefits and, 324 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:48,040 and, and of and of how that helps me show up in the space 325 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:51,880 for DEI. If, if, if that were to kind of 326 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:56,400 go hand in hand in a way. Wow, I just, I'm having so many 327 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:58,440 thoughts at once about what you're sharing. 328 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:03,280 So let me, let me just say this. Thank you so much for naming it 329 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:07,920 that, that it wasn't just, oh, I'm trying to avoid burnout or, 330 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:11,560 or what it was that you actually had to take some space. 331 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,920 Due to what is happening in our political climate and the world 332 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:19,240 at large, I I really appreciate you feeling like you could say 333 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,280 that. And at the same time I was 334 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:25,320 having before you even you and Lou started talking about this. 335 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:29,080 I was having this thought in my head, like how many powerful 336 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:33,680 femme and female leaders are Lou and I going to interview on this 337 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,480 podcast before we find a man that we want to interview that's 338 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,600 doing the same work? Yeah, there's not a lot, Yeah. 339 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:44,560 I mean, I I'm getting chills just of chills of both being 340 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:49,520 moved and rage thinking about how much labor has been done by 341 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:53,200 women of color and femmes of color, and queer people too, of 342 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:56,280 course. But thank you for what you've 343 00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:59,640 done, and thank you for stepping back, because you deserve to 344 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:01,400 feel safe. Yeah, You deserve to also reap 345 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:05,640 the rewards of, like, all of this work that you've put into 346 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:07,480 the community. Like, yeah, that's why, like, 347 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,960 rotating facilitatorship can be so beautiful because you can 348 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,760 create that space and then pass the baton. 349 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:17,720 Yeah. Yeah, thank you so much for for 350 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:20,880 acknowledging that. And and as you and that's 351 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:26,160 another thing I think, you know, we we don't do the the hard work 352 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:28,680 to for accolades or acknowledgements, but it it is 353 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:32,760 so appreciated to to, you know, get some flowers every night. 354 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,520 So I so I mean so much it really yeah, it really does. 355 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:42,480 And I I have AI love that you brought up, you know, fems and 356 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:46,280 and, you know, queer folks of queer organ organizers doing a 357 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:50,080 lot of the the work. For example, when I left Mehta, 358 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:52,920 you know, a lot of my organizers on Meadow right. 359 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:57,560 And so once that kind of unfortunately it fell apart and 360 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:00,600 the folks that stepped up when I, when I kind of got some 361 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:04,680 updates from West Coast swing, you know, friends and, and 362 00:22:05,360 --> 00:22:08,560 people that are still involved in it was, And of course the 363 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:13,800 folks that stepped up were all women, the fans that and, and I 364 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:16,880 was like, Oh my gosh, it's, it's such a telling story. 365 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:18,080 And, and, and it's so interesting. 366 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:25,880 You all have yet to find a male, you know, or someone that is 367 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:27,600 doing that work and with that identity. 368 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:29,680 It's very interesting. We have a couple, but they're 369 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:33,200 much lower on our list than like, yeah, we got like a list 370 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,800 full of of fems and then there's like 2-2 guys, 2 dudes, yeah. 371 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,560 Wow. And our listenership is almost 372 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:46,120 primarily queer people and women, so hopefully this will 373 00:22:46,120 --> 00:22:49,960 fall on male ears at some point. Yeah, because they benefit from 374 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,040 all of this work that we're doing, too. 375 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:53,880 Yeah. And like, everyone benefits from 376 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:56,600 having a more inclusive dance floor. 377 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,120 Do you only want to dance with tech workers or do you want to 378 00:22:59,120 --> 00:23:02,880 have like a full range of people to dance with? 379 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,640 I'm laughing because my answer feels so obvious. 380 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,160 I'm like, the salsa world is just like, I mean, it's Seattle, 381 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:16,880 right? Yeah, you mentioned Meta and 382 00:23:19,120 --> 00:23:23,160 you, we found you originally on social media, you were doing 383 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:27,120 some really great content creation under the username the 384 00:23:27,120 --> 00:23:29,800 Dei Dancer, which I think was really good. 385 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,720 And I was a fan of you, especially watching your Tik 386 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,040 Toks where you're like fighting the trolls and all that stuff 387 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:39,160 was really fun. And then you left Meta. 388 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:41,760 And it was around the same time that Kate and I have been 389 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:47,440 working to divest from, from Meta ourselves and from just 390 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,280 like taking a step back from social media content creation to 391 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:55,640 focus and other places. And we didn't fully walk away. 392 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,560 So we really respect that you have straight up just deleted 393 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:00,240 all of your accounts and stuff like that. 394 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:05,680 I'd love to hear more of in your decision of why you did that and 395 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,040 what it's been like to be off social media. 396 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:14,680 My main thing, it was kind of a A2 part, you know, I mentioned a 397 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:18,080 little bit some trolls and kind of some backlash that was a part 398 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:19,320 of it. But I have thick skin. 399 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,320 Like I've heard it all. Like I deal, this is like 400 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,280 day-to-day stuff. You know, I have folks that go 401 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:26,680 to my workshops because they're required to, you know, all that 402 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,040 stuff. Like it's all, yeah, I, I, I 403 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:33,520 deal with it day in, day out and, and then, you know, and 404 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:35,800 then dealing with people, of course I'm never going to change 405 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,880 their mind or whatever. But it, it, it just, it, it, it 406 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,920 wasn't even the trolls. It was actually some strife 407 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,360 among actual fellow organizers and, and, and, and, you know, 408 00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:55,160 some, some, you know, disjointed community practices and, and you 409 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,480 know, things like that, that, that that took its toll on me 410 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,440 because you, you feel like I mentioned earlier, you, you, you 411 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,760 find your people, you find a network that you can trust, but 412 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,440 then you also find those that are opposite of that, that are 413 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:14,760 trying to, you know, offended in a little, in a bit or kind of do 414 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,280 to protest against that. You know, so, so that was one 415 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:21,160 thing and it was really disheartening to see it from 416 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:25,440 people that I thought I could trust and, and that I thought 417 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:32,520 that I would do the right thing. But you know, I, I kind of had 418 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:37,560 this optimistic expectation, but as we know, disappointment is 419 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,720 just unmet expectation. So that was one piece of that is 420 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:46,880 kind of some some among my community of organizers and 421 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,280 there was some just disjointedness there. 422 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:54,560 And then the other piece, of course, is the misalignment of 423 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:59,000 values of, of, you know, the folks that own the meta platform 424 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:04,400 and bending the knee to the current president. 425 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,040 And so the lot of a lot of things just built upon it. 426 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,480 And, and for me, it was just like, I was like, you know, I 427 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:13,440 was like this, I, I, I can't do this. 428 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:18,040 And I don't want to support Zuckerberg and, and all his like 429 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:20,280 all I got friends and all that stuff. 430 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,040 And, and so I was like, I'm just going to do it. 431 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:27,360 So I waited until I, I traveled to my first overseas event 432 00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:31,480 because as you know, the only way to find roommates, the only 433 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,760 way to, to find friends to try Yeah, to like dance friends. 434 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,520 It's on social media. There's the Facebook groups that 435 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,520 are I'm, I'm going to land at this time. 436 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,760 Anyone want to do a ride share? I can't do that without, I 437 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,640 couldn't do that without met Facebook. 438 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:53,080 So I waited until I was, I, I went to France for my best 439 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:54,920 friend's wedding. And then there was a West Coast 440 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,000 swing event in Lyon the week after. 441 00:26:58,000 --> 00:26:59,480 So it was my first overseas event. 442 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,120 I, you know, Facebook. I knew I was like, I just need 443 00:27:02,120 --> 00:27:03,040 it. I need it for this. 444 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:07,480 It's the necessary evil for me to, you know, to not to get lost 445 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,480 or to have at least people I can know that I'm there and that I'm 446 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:15,560 not, you know, so I needed that. And then when I, when I landed 447 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,880 back home in September, like Labor Day weekend, I and 448 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:21,440 Facebook makes it so hard to leave. 449 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,160 I know, of course. Yeah, it's so hard to delete 450 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:26,040 your account. Like yeah I have deleted my 451 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,160 Facebook account and I like had to. 452 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,000 I was like following a tutorial to be a friend. 453 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,520 I literally clearly I I had to go to this tutorial this like 454 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,760 checklist. Anyways, the one thing I do miss 455 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,600 is all my my dance videos that I've had. 456 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:46,240 For for. 15 years dance dance photos, you know, we have often 457 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,440 professional photos at the events that you know that the 458 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:51,720 some photographers offer for free. 459 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:57,560 So you just have this you, you kind of have to let that go and 460 00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:59,320 and that was it. One thing I missed besides the 461 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,800 community, of course, I was like, oh, there's these memories 462 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,480 that I have. So yeah, I deleted. 463 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,480 I just, I went culture, you know, people say, you know, 464 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,400 deactivate, you know, they have the little note before you, you, 465 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:12,440 they, they ask you to delete. Are you sure? 466 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:14,480 You sure you want to take a break instead? 467 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,120 No, no. I'm. 468 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,880 Done. And so, you know, I, I, I 469 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,920 consider deactivating and, and keeping messenger, for example, 470 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,560 kind of like slowly taking it back. 471 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,480 And there's like some steps. I was like, no, I just, I 472 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:29,520 deleted it. I deleted it in September of 473 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:36,000 this, this past fall. And I have not, yeah, I, I'm not 474 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,840 going to lie. I, I definitely almost wanted to 475 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:40,600 go back because I was like, I need a roommate. 476 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,680 I need, I'm going to this event. I don't know who's there, you 477 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,760 know, And thankfully I've made, I've made, I built deep 478 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:50,240 connections outside of that where I have, you know, some, 479 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:52,400 you know, I phone numbers, emails. 480 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,640 Thankfully, thankfully I've been able to travel and attend events 481 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:59,000 with that in mind. But damn, it's, it's so hard. 482 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,680 It's really hard. That's how they get you. 483 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,080 That's how they get you. Yeah, you know. 484 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,120 That's like the really insidious thing that a lot of these tech 485 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:09,960 industries have done is that they insert themselves in your 486 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,400 life like they've taken away something that we have done just 487 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,520 naturally with each other of just being social and having 488 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:17,360 connections. And then they're like, here, you 489 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:21,240 do it now through our company and now they own your ability to 490 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:22,640 have social connections with. People. 491 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:24,200 And they're literally like so. Dangerous they're. 492 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:26,720 Like leveraging your memories? Yeah. 493 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:31,880 Oh my gosh, yeah. I know I I there is a way to 494 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,480 save all your stuff, but it is it's like rocket science. 495 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,320 You have to be like have a PhD in meta to like purposely. 496 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,240 Making it hard to find and hard to do because they want to keep 497 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:44,000 you there. But I think you're also naming 498 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:51,000 something really big that like that social dancing had like 499 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:54,000 social media is a huge part of how it functions. 500 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:58,040 It's like how people know about dances and a lot of dance 501 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,720 organizations, I go to find out information about them and 502 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,640 they're only on Facebook. They don't even have a website I 503 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:07,040 can go to that tells me what their their information is. 504 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,800 And with as you're passing the baton and how you've, when 505 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:11,920 you've gone through this and the organizations that you've had, 506 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,560 like do you, are your organizations still on social 507 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:15,880 media? Are you they still, are you 508 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:17,520 still having people post over there? 509 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,040 Like how's that going? Oh yeah, 100%. 510 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:23,000 You know, for the Seattle Swing Dance Club, we have like a 511 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:27,360 marketing committee, you know, where they're on Instagram and 512 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,040 Facebook where or I was the one doing that. 513 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:35,640 Ironically, no, I was the one, you know, doing all that and and 514 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,800 passing that off. They they're, you know, they're, 515 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,360 they're doing the work just because it's informational. 516 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,560 You that's the only way to get information out is to post on 517 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:45,920 social media. Like you said, Lou, you 518 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:51,480 mentioned if, if, for example, I'm traveling to San Antonio for 519 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,160 work, you know, in a, in a few months and I wanted to see what 520 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,960 some local dances were. I so I search Google and 521 00:30:58,000 --> 00:30:59,440 Google's another problematic thing. 522 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:03,200 That's another story is, you know, you search West Coast 523 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,400 swing location, whatever, and the first thing that pops up is 524 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:12,160 usually always Instagram, Facebook, you know, and and 525 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,160 you're right, they don't have a website and you and but then you 526 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,640 think about it, it's because that's another barrier sometimes 527 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,760 for everyday dancers. They're they're not going to set 528 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,800 up a whole website, you know, for the one right not. 529 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:25,720 Everybody knows how to web design, and once you have a 530 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:27,640 website, you're paying for it, so yeah. 531 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,920 There's so there's a there's and again, going back to what, what 532 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:33,240 do they have? What's the resource? 533 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,480 What's it's Facebook, it's free. But they, they, they, you, they, 534 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,480 you leverage and weaponize, you know, that this, this 535 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,080 information that they chokehold that they have on US, Yeah, 536 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:47,600 against us, right. Yeah, so it's so insidious and 537 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:52,240 it's so slippery and tangled up as we tried to do the right 538 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,560 thing for both ourselves and our community. 539 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:57,320 It's really, it's a lot. It's really hard. 540 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,720 So are you also so you're you're gone from meta, Are you also off 541 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,760 everything? I'm off of meta, you know, so 542 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:09,920 meta was threads, Instagram, Facebook. 543 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:15,840 So that's for sure deleted. I, I am our our local, our West 544 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,560 Seattle W post committee. They have a discord and it's, 545 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,000 again, it's not as active as Facebook. 546 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,280 It's wild. I'm I'm trying to like amp 547 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,560 things up and hide things up. It's just not the same because 548 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:32,520 the default right now, the easy, the easy default is Facebook 549 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,920 Messenger, group chats, organizing things via via meta. 550 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:44,480 So it's it's really hard. It's really hard to again find 551 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:53,200 my community to and it's also it's it's it's opened my eyes to 552 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:58,640 how much is done, how, how what it and how much of it is has 553 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,120 been on. There has been a reliant has, 554 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:07,040 you know, offers opportunities. It's all in this one platform 555 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:10,480 and and discord, you know, not doesn't have not without its own 556 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:14,200 problems. Again, it's just, it's not the 557 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:16,600 same. It's it's very different. 558 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,880 It's very, very different. And so I played it kind of done 559 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,000 a little mini experience where, you know, I, you know, 560 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,760 organizing on there, offering the kind of the same 561 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:30,360 opportunities that I would when I was on meta and there's just 562 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:32,960 no engagement. There's just there's little to 563 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,160 no engagement. Because people, like the people 564 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,120 don't want to split their attention between too many 565 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,000 platforms and they're already. So unless you've really built a 566 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,480 community on the Discord channel that gets people to show up to 567 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,280 it, it's going to be a ghost town. 568 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,000 It's it literally is a ghost town for yeah, for the local 569 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,160 West Coast swing. Yeah, there's I've seen some 570 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:58,080 positive examples for the, the San Francisco West Coast swing. 571 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,760 They their discourse really active and and they do a good 572 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:03,920 job. I I'm trying to learn from them. 573 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,600 Like what you know, what are some tips and and engagement 574 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:08,600 tricks? So so that's kind of a positive. 575 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:10,719 It can. It can't happen. 576 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:13,920 It just hasn't happened for for Seattle West Coast Wing. 577 00:34:14,199 --> 00:34:16,480 Well, as a graphic designer, I just really hope that this is 578 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:18,880 the return of print media. I want more cool posters. 579 00:34:19,159 --> 00:34:22,199 Like maybe that's how how we fight this. 580 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:25,199 Send each other postcards. Get on the telephone. 581 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,920 Something like. That So a topic that I really 582 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:32,159 wanted to talk to you about today was the fact that I am a 583 00:34:32,159 --> 00:34:34,480 Lindy Hopper. I have been, you know, 584 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:38,159 indoctrinated into the cult of Lindy Hop, even though I'm not 585 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:42,239 really a fan of being in a cult, but one of those those things 586 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,159 that we've had and, and we, you know, talked about this in our 587 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:50,800 white supremacy episodes of this US versus them thinking. 588 00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:55,400 And I was definitely indoctrinated into this US 589 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,000 versus them of Lindy Hopp versus West Coast. 590 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:02,720 And there's this interesting dynamic that Lindy Hopp has of 591 00:35:02,720 --> 00:35:07,080 like, well, Lindy Hopp is the authentic black American dance 592 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,360 and West Coast is the white appropriation of it. 593 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:14,760 And because of that, we got to feel like special that we were 594 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:16,640 like better than West Coast or something like that. 595 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,760 But then I would, you know, dancing in a ballroom where 596 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:23,160 there's also a W coastal, I'd peek my nose in there and I'd be 597 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:27,280 like, why are there so many people of color in the the white 598 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,960 appropriation of this? So I don't really understand and 599 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,840 I'm ready to dissect this, deconstruct this a little bit, 600 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,040 understand it or more. So I really want to understand 601 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:37,440 you. What's your perspective on this 602 00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,360 whole US versus them between Lindy Hop and West Coast Swing? 603 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,840 I'm so glad it's on that topic. Since when you brought it I was 604 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:45,440 like, oh, that's such a good one. 605 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:51,280 Because since I've been on West Coast Swing, like I, I, I will 606 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:55,960 say that I'm on backtrack there. There is some disconnect and 607 00:35:55,960 --> 00:36:00,520 maybe some room for for growth and improvement for organized 608 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,640 like West Coast swing teachers and organizers to acknowledge 609 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,280 the the West coasting roots in Lenny Hop, like first and 610 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,040 foremost that that's another issue. 611 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:15,120 But for for those folks that, you know, have that that are, 612 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:19,040 you know, understand and acknowledge that like they are a 613 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:23,480 core group of people that that have had no problem when I say 614 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:30,760 problem have had no, you know, this mentality or rivalry. 615 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:35,080 It seems like the the West Coast swing to Lindy Hop right. 616 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,680 But like you mentioned, Lou, yeah, I think it's I I I felt 617 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:45,160 and have personally received that from Lindy Hopper's again 618 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:47,320 in that crossover. And, you know, there's a lot of 619 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:49,760 your crossover between Lindy Hopper's and West Coast swing 620 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,880 dancers. Westies as maybe as some people 621 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,400 might also know Westies. Yeah, Lindy Hoppers. 622 00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:01,280 And so in my experience, in the on all the years that I've done 623 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:06,040 West Coast swing, it's that it's like, it's the bastardized 624 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:11,760 version of vintage swing. It's the, it's the, you know, 625 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:17,160 the appropriated or it's the the cheaper looking swing dance. 626 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:19,600 And they're like, it's not even swing, you know. 627 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,600 And so it's, it's, it's always, I've always heard it that way. 628 00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,160 And funnily enough, going back to meta, Oh gosh, I always feel 629 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,400 like I'm going back to meta. There was this, there's this 630 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:34,280 meme group about from Lindy Hoppers and, and, and when West 631 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:38,040 Coast swing dancers would go in there, we would get ripped. 632 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:41,200 That mean group is super problematic by the way. 633 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,120 That's what I haven't thought about that since the day I 634 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,760 deleted that my my Facebook account. 635 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,520 Like Oh my God that mean group is so problematic. 636 00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:53,920 Main group is so volatile and toxic. 637 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:57,240 I was like, Oh my God, it's This is why it's like this. 638 00:37:57,240 --> 00:38:02,680 And so, so because the, the, the, the common sentiment I I 639 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:07,080 hear is, is that, yeah, it's like, oh, West Coast swing, 640 00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:11,120 that's how I'm in swing. We're, we're the original swing. 641 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:13,720 You wouldn't have West Coast swing if it wasn't, you know, 642 00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:19,120 and, and another example is and Lou, I'd be curious on what your 643 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:21,200 experience, because I think you mentioned this in one of our 644 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:27,920 notes, our initial scheduling notes, is that the difference of 645 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,960 the demographic and maybe the visual like the community. 646 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:36,280 So, so one thing I've heard from Lindy Hopper is that they is 647 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:38,760 yeah, you are people don't acknowledge, you know, Lindy 648 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:40,760 Hopper is the roots of West Coast swing. 649 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:46,200 And and then but these are coming from white Lindy like, 650 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:49,600 like, and I'm like, I'm scratching my hands like where 651 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:51,920 is this coming from? You know, it's like, and so it's 652 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:57,120 very interesting. It's kind of like what's that 653 00:38:57,240 --> 00:38:58,920 analogy? Maybe help me it's like. 654 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:03,640 Calling the kettle black, Yeah. Yeah, it's very little, little 655 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:05,160 that I'm like, Are you sure you want? 656 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:07,920 All white people making the black people uncomfortable in 657 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:10,360 the Lindy Hop community looking at West Coast and being like 658 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:12,480 well. But. 659 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:15,720 Yeah, yeah. Not without to say there's 660 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,320 again, there's always room to improve and increase 661 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,920 opportunities for dancers of color in West Coast swing. 662 00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:25,720 But again, based on your your anecdote rule is that yeah, I, 663 00:39:25,720 --> 00:39:32,520 I, I have noticed some more of a demographic and and more diverse 664 00:39:33,720 --> 00:39:38,560 community at across. You know that not without to say 665 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:41,800 again, if you look at the Champions that are in West Coast 666 00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:46,880 swing all white, right, mostly all white and. 667 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,400 You mean the people that are like winning competitions? 668 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:52,520 And so can you say more about that? 669 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:54,560 So I don't understand. Absolutely. 670 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,080 So Kate. So when I when I reference like 671 00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,280 champions, so those are like the top of the top. 672 00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:03,160 Level, they're called champion. Like that's wild. 673 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:06,080 OK, I'm glad you brought that up. 674 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:10,360 That's not common in other other styles I'm hearing. 675 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,360 Okay, very interesting. So yes, so if you think about 676 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:17,200 the competition levels again, designated by a whole 677 00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,160 organization, that's another thing. 678 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:26,040 But it's champions is like come on the top, top, top level if 679 00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:29,200 you go through like from newcomer, novice, intermediate, 680 00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:32,080 advanced, All Star champions. Are like, right, There's like 681 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,840 actual levels, literal kind of sanction. 682 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,200 Oh yeah, because of sanctions system, right? 683 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:39,080 Correct. That's correct. 684 00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:41,760 It's such a completely different world. 685 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,280 It's weird for every dance friends very different. 686 00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:47,080 It is very different. So that's when I went to 687 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:48,720 champions. And so when you think about 688 00:40:48,720 --> 00:40:52,960 champions, though, they're often those that are instructors, 689 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:56,840 they're often those that are hired at events see because of 690 00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:00,600 their kind of cred. And but again, when you look 691 00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:08,360 across the the lineup, often they're all whites, you know, 692 00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:12,520 usually conventionally attractive, thin, you know, all 693 00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:19,720 these like very typical, you know, privileged identities and 694 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:25,840 and privileges and experiences. So anyways, so so with that, 695 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:29,160 it's it's very interesting to hear Lindy Hopper's, you know, a 696 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:35,920 kind of dogging West Coast swing in a way, but again, like pot 697 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:39,280 calling the kettle black. And it's like aren't like, but 698 00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:44,000 like Lindy hop is original black social St. dance. 699 00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:49,720 But then I, you know, if I were to Google Lindy Hop now or like 700 00:41:49,720 --> 00:41:53,000 the Wikipedia page, for example, or even of the first YouTube 701 00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:56,320 video that pops up, it's not representative of what maybe the 702 00:41:56,320 --> 00:42:00,120 history would would say, right? So again, that that ties in with 703 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:04,040 West Coast 22. It's it's really very reflective 704 00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,960 of each other because they are kind of very similar. 705 00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:14,640 But there is this I've noticed for sure this talking down to 706 00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:17,000 West Go swing. And then do Westies feel that 707 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:20,120 way like towards are they like Lindy Hoppers? 708 00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:23,920 Like those guys are the worst dancing something from the 30s? 709 00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:28,760 Like is the sentiment returned or is it just a reaction to like 710 00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:30,920 whoa, why do these people feel weird towards us? 711 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:37,880 I think, I think that if it was a reaction, it's too because of 712 00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:42,600 their, their sentiment or, or behavior towards, towards our 713 00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:44,960 community. And, and so then of course it's 714 00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:47,480 going to build some animosity when you're like, you're like, 715 00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:49,400 you just don't like us for no reason, though, I'm not going to 716 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:51,440 like you for no reason. So it can be a little 717 00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:54,760 retaliatory. And, and I've seen that outside 718 00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:58,160 of that meme group, but also, you know, within maybe other 719 00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:02,920 community spaces or among organizer to organize or, you 720 00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:05,960 know, trying to build and bridge that gap. 721 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,520 It just hasn't happened yet. Because there is, I, I will say 722 00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:12,520 the one thing about West Coast, West Coast swing is that they do 723 00:43:13,240 --> 00:43:18,280 maybe aren't as interested in Lindy hop versus maybe the vice 724 00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:25,520 versa because of the maybe the difference in dance style and 725 00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:29,400 music. It's it'd be, I think it'd be 726 00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:33,960 asking a lot of West Coast swing dancers to do that. 727 00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:38,080 Different such as in such a stark difference, I think. 728 00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:42,360 Yeah, they are like very different dances. 729 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:46,560 Like I was having as an outsider, because I danced salsa 730 00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:50,280 and bachata, I was having this thought of like, is it kind of 731 00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:55,240 like sensual dancers wanting and feeling the need to learn 732 00:43:55,240 --> 00:43:59,760 traditional bachata as like a foundation to the sensual 733 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:02,960 development? And it kind of seems like that 734 00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:08,120 isn't the vibe that it's, it's that like the more vintage dance 735 00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:11,280 should be learned before this more modern one. 736 00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:13,720 And another thought I'm having is how much this is just a 737 00:44:13,720 --> 00:44:18,040 question as an outsider, how much of that judgement is coming 738 00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:23,840 from the music not being traditional music, You know, 739 00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,400 from a Lindy hop perspective, Because West Coast Swing, from 740 00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:28,960 my understanding, You Can Dance to any kind of music. 741 00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:34,840 So I don't know, just like maybe I'm just like throwing gasoline 742 00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:37,240 onto your fire. But I'm just so curious what 743 00:44:37,240 --> 00:44:43,120 your thoughts are. Yes, that there is a whole kind 744 00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:48,600 of buzz among West Coast Swing about dancing to like the 745 00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:52,680 traditional Blues or jazz where original West Coast swing was 746 00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:58,200 only danced to all those kind of traditional swing music. 747 00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:04,160 And but with West Coast Swing, if, if you, if, if the listeners 748 00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:09,200 or you are aware is that over the years, as we know, music has 749 00:45:09,240 --> 00:45:14,440 modernizes over time, West Coast Swing has adapted, then that's 750 00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:18,960 why it's, it's been, it's, it's one of it's, it's my favorite 751 00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:20,880 dance because of the adaptability of music and 752 00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:24,080 versatility. And historically it's been 753 00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,600 because it's adapted to the modernization of music over 754 00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:30,160 generation. That's really cool. 755 00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:32,080 Yeah. Yeah, what's actually the 756 00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:34,960 history of West Coast? Like I don't actually know where 757 00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:38,200 it like splits off from Lindy Hop and becomes its own dance 758 00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:42,960 form. Yeah, I I think there's always 759 00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:50,880 been some. How do you say disagreement 760 00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:56,000 among we call them like historians and and like, because 761 00:45:56,120 --> 00:46:01,160 we don't, no one really knows. There's really no hard agreement 762 00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:02,960 when it ended or when it started. 763 00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:05,760 It's just it kind of it's always evolved and like, how do we not 764 00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:07,840 know? And, and I think, of course, you 765 00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:10,760 know, with the technology and and how like maybe folks have 766 00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:14,560 blogged the first time or you know, whoever, wherever that 767 00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:20,320 exists, it's there's there's still no agreed split off from 768 00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:22,280 when it went to Lindy hop to West Coast Swing. 769 00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:27,960 But but there is, there's, there is documented, you know, stories 770 00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:32,600 of, of where, you know, originally from Lindy Hop to 771 00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:36,040 where it's, you know, they mentioned Dean Collins often 772 00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:40,080 for, for like modernizing Lindy Hop to for, for like movie 773 00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:42,000 screens. And that's why we have a slot 774 00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:43,480 now. It's like, Oh my gosh, that's 775 00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:46,720 wild. So there's really no, I, I 776 00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:49,640 really can't stay because I don't like anybody really knows 777 00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:51,960 when that when that happened specifically. 778 00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:55,360 So were they dancing West Coast to like disco music? 779 00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:59,840 Yes. Oh, wow, 100% yes. 780 00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:04,040 Yeah. So like Even so if you look at 781 00:47:04,240 --> 00:47:08,520 for for me, my, my knowledge goes back to like, as far as 782 00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:12,880 like YouTube videos can go. And then, you know, we have like 783 00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:16,040 some people are really invested in like archiving Old West Coast 784 00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:17,600 swing videos. And if you look at the West 785 00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:22,240 Coast swing from the 90s, it looks so different to what you, 786 00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:25,160 you see at a competition that happened this weekend. 787 00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:28,000 Wow. It's, it's, it's like it, it 788 00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:30,480 looks like a different dance and different music. 789 00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:34,280 It's, it's really fascinating. So that's why there's been kind 790 00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:40,600 of a a controversial move to to rename it modern Swing, even 791 00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:44,160 though that's that really doesn't work because modern is 792 00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:45,680 going to change. Yeah. 793 00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:49,040 Every time, right? So anyways, so it's very 794 00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:52,480 interesting, yeah. I feel like it kind of flipped 795 00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:57,080 for me, this idea of like constantly like looking forward 796 00:47:57,080 --> 00:48:01,880 and like to the now versus I. I could be wrong, but Lou, is 797 00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:05,120 your experience that Lindy Hop is constantly looking back? 798 00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:08,560 Oh yeah, It's all about always looking back and preserving this 799 00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:13,960 thing and watching the videos of the original dancers and trying 800 00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:15,920 to be inspired specifically from them. 801 00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:19,000 Like there's a movie Spirit Moves, which was an archival 802 00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:22,040 thing that was created to document Black American dance 803 00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:25,160 and has people like Al Menz in it and stuff like that. 804 00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:28,320 And people are always trying to be inspired specifically from 805 00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:30,400 that. And I think that that's 806 00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:33,080 something really interesting that I've discovered about 807 00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:36,600 specifically black culture is that it functions on a 808 00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:38,840 continuum. Like there's the jazz continuum. 809 00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:43,200 It's always meant to evolve. It's not meant like it's kind of 810 00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:48,080 a an aspect of, of whiteness to want to find like the 811 00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:54,840 perfectionism and like putting things in a museum and under 812 00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:58,160 glass and trying to make it this really specific thing instead of 813 00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:01,560 having it be something that's always growing and being 814 00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:04,640 something new. So I'm really hearing that in in 815 00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:06,160 this conversation. Yeah. 816 00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:11,400 Well, Ratsame, we really loved having you here today. 817 00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,520 You're so wonderful to be able to connect with a Westie that 818 00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:17,720 can school us a little bit in both West Coast and DEI. 819 00:49:17,720 --> 00:49:23,040 It was just really wonderful to get your perspective, and we're 820 00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:26,280 gonna go ahead and head off today so you can leave us a 821 00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:29,440 review on your favorite podcasting platform. 822 00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:35,480 Yes, and as always, any kind of love letters, suggestions, any 823 00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:37,320 feedback that you have for us can go to 824 00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:41,480 dgenderdance@gmail.com. And that's it for us today. 825 00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:43,000 Goodbye. Bye. 826 00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:44,760 Thanks for tuning in. Thank you, Ratsumi.