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567. 8. 
Rock step. 

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Triple step. 
Rock step. 

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Cha cha. 
Cha. 

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Hi, my name is Kate and my 
pronouns, are they them? 

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Hello, my name is Lou and my 
pronouns are they them? 

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Just two they themes talking 
about dance. 

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Dance and stuff. 
Dance and stuff. 

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Hey Lou. 
Hey. 

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Kate, how you doing? 
Doing all right, it's a gorgeous

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sunny day in Seattle, and today 
we are going to talk about lead,

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follow, and switch. 
Amazing. 

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And before we get into our main 
topic today too, I just wanted 

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to give an update from one of 
our more recent episodes where 

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we talked about boycotting 
Spotify. 

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I want to say that Spotify 
dropped ice ads recently. 

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Just great because there's so 
many extra reasons to hate ICE 

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as they're ramping up, you know,
being fascist slave catchers 

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around America. 
So it's really great that 

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Spotify did that. 
And I know I personally am still

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not going to go back to Spotify 
after that, but I'm really glad 

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that the boycott made some 
movement. 

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It worked in a lot of ways. 
It did work. 

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No, I won't be going back 
either. 

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I'm like fully invested in Kubos
at this point so it's kind of 

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expensive but I feel like it's 
worth. 

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It OK that's amazing, I love to 
hear that. 

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I've been making it through with
band camp and YouTube and I'm a 

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little frustrated by it, so 
maybe I'll be looking into 

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Kubo's soon. 
Yeah, yeah, I'm liking it. 

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But yeah, that's great news. 
I, I think that's exactly what 

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we need to hear as we're like 
moving towards making the 

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changes and and that stuff like 
that works. 

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Yeah, when we band together, 
things happen. 

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Absolutely. 
Cool. 

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Thanks. 
Thanks for that, Lou. 

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And if we want to transition a 
little bit into the topic today,

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switching and leading and 
following is a really, really 

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big topic. 
And we're just going to kind of 

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like talk about some higher 
points of, of this topic about 

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like why ELEF and learning to 
lead and follow is really, 

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really valuable. 
Absolutely, Yeah. 

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So ELEF stands for everybody 
leads, everybody follows. 

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And a lot of people will assume 
like, Oh no, that means everyone

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needs to be a switch dancer now.
And that's really not what ELEF 

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is. 
It's what it is, is, is a 

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framework for teaching everybody
to lead and everybody to follow,

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which gives just everybody a lot
more options and kind of stops 

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this. 
This, assuming that men lead and

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women follow it, disrupts that 
and gives just everybody the 

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option to do whatever role that 
they want. 

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Right. 
And like a little bit further 

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into that, it also brings, it 
kind of dismantles the idea that

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there's only two genders too. 
And also it gives people who are

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newer dancers an option to 
really feel out what they're 

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going to be wanting to focus on 
right as they as they learn to 

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dance. 
So it's something we're both 

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really passionate about. 
And I didn't really get into it 

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until probably like 5 or 6 years
ago. 

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But it really changed my my own 
dancing and it really changed a 

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lot of my students experiences I
feel like. 

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So yeah. 
Well, 'cause it really opens up 

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this, all of these options that 
you're allowed to have. 

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It's not like you choose, you 
walk on the in the door, you're 

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assigned a role and that's all 
you get to do for the rest of 

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your dance life. 
You can, once you've learned 

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both roles, you can dabble. 
You can take a season in just 

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one role. 
You can become a switch dancer. 

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You can decide that you're going
to work on one role for a little

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while and then go back. 
It's it becomes any combination 

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of of options that suit you 
instead of just a box that you 

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show up that you need to stay 
in. 

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Totally. 
And I also want to say like kind

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of linking back to something you
said earlier is like you can 

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also get a taste for the other, 
like both roles and decide you 

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never want to do one of them 
ever again. 

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Absolutely. 
Yes. 

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Yeah. 
You can be like, oh, I did like 

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a month of ELEF and I'm like, I 
never want to follow in my life.

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Yes, absolutely. 
Or you can do a little bit of it

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and be like, leading is the 
worst. 

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I now understand what leading 
is. 

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I get it. 
And now that I truly understand 

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it, it's not for me. 
And that's, that's great as 

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well. 
It's not always about like you 

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must switch dance every song for
the rest of your dance life. 

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Absolutely. 
And I feel like giving students 

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the agency to decide by offering
stuff like that is really, 

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really valuable. 
And I, I also really feel like 

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this is a more of like a 
technical element of it that has

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to do with the actual dance is 
learning both roles doesn't have

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to be about like your identity 
with one or the other. 

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It can really be about how you 
communicate while you're 

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dancing, whatever role you 
choose, because if you 

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understand both sides of the 
dance, you have you, you have 

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like basically like an inside 
view as to what the other person

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is experiencing. 
So you're going to communicate 

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better? 
Yes, it creates this dance 

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empathy where you can really 
understand what's happening in 

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the other side of the 
conversation of the dance. 

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Totally. 
So I kind of want to like I want

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to ask you about your 
experience. 

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I know that you, I think you 
started following and I want to 

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just ask you about like when it 
kind of clicked for you that you

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had that agency and and what 
that was like. 

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For you. 
Yeah. 

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I remember being at a dance camp
that's here in Seattle and the 

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heteronormativity of the moment 
that I was in. 

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I was even in like a gymnasium. 
And it was a gigantic beginner 

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class being taught by a couple 
that are dressed in vintage, 

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where the man was leading and 
the woman was following. 

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And they had a moment where 
they're like, OK, follows, come 

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to this side of the room. 
OK, leads go to that side of the

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room and I realized that I was 
standing in a gymnasium where 

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all the men were on one side and
all the women were on another. 

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And all of my grade school 
trauma, gender trauma just like 

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came to the surface. 
And I was like, I can't do this.

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This is not I can't do this 
binary experience. 

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Like my soul says that that 
that's just not what feels 

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authentic in my body. 
So it was in that moment that I 

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decided I was going to learn to 
lead. 

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And since then, I've started 
identifying as a lead in in my 

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role, even though I still follow
a ton and I switched dance. 

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I think that I need to that 
anyone needs to be a little 

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careful with identifying with 
any of the roles because there's

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something that you can switch at
any moment. 

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And but also I wonder about that
because identifying as a lead 

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has been like really helpful for
me understanding myself. 

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So totally. 
It's been a really beautiful and

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complex journey. 
Yeah, I love that. 

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And I really do think it's like 
for me, when I want to follow, I

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choose following for very 
different reasons and I choose 

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leading. 
And they're also, they kind of 

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like fit together in such a 
unique special way. 

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And each dance is a little bit 
different in the way that they 

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fit each dance form. 
But like for me with salsa, when

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I choose to lead, it's because 
I'm feeling a certain kind of 

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way about like creating. 
And when I'm following, I'm 

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feeling like maybe a different 
kind of way, but it's still 

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about creating. 
So both roles for me are about 

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unique ways to create. 
And I feel like if you, if we 

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don't give students the 
opportunity or if we don't 

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explore the opportunity 
ourselves to try what those feel

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like, we're just kind of like 
cutting ourselves off. 

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Yeah. 
From creating in the dance. 

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Absolutely. 
It's just that harm that 

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heteronormativity brings to all 
people, that it shoves you in a 

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box, and then you don't get to 
understand yourself outside of 

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that. 
Right. 

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Exactly. 
Yeah. 

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And I just want to like, I just 
want to say that for me also, 

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learning to lead was such a 
special way that I was able to 

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keep dancing because all of the 
reasons I felt really harmed in 

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dancing was by being from being 
a follow and not really having 

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an understanding of what my 
agency was. 

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And learning to lead just like, 
really really healed me. 

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I love that for you. 
Yeah, it was huge. 

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Yeah, I was once working with 
this accountant for Degener 

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Dance actually, when I was doing
our our taxes with this 

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accountant and she was more 
advising me on how to go through

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and do my own taxes. 
And she was being such a clear, 

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direct, telling me everything 
that I need to do and all of 

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these things. 
And then we get to, you know, 

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after the taxes are done and 
we're just discussing our 

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business and we're discussing de
gendering dance. 

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And she was like, you know, I 
went, I tried to learn salsa 

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with my husband, but I just 
hated it. 

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I couldn't handle being told 
what to do. 

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And I was like, especially after
being guided through my taxes 

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with this woman, I'm like, I 
think, I think you'd really like

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leading. 
I think you should. 

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Just try it again and and give 
leading a shot. 

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I think you might really like 
it. 

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So I should follow up with her 
and see if she ever took another

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salsa? 
If she ever tried it again, 

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yeah. 
And I also think that like that 

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means that the classroom 
environment that she was in did 

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not allow for safe leading 
because being a lead isn't about

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controlling or like be telling 
the follow what to do. 

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So those harmful, that harmful 
binary really creates this idea 

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that like women are controlled 
and men control and and that's 

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00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:06,440
like not true at all in a safe 
dance. 

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00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:08,960
It's like there's a 
communication happening. 

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And so it's like it not not 
learning a little bit about both

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roles or each role is is really 
in a way it can be really 

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harmful if not, you know, 
unchecked it's really harmful. 

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00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:26,440
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 
And it's like defining lead and 

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follow not as the lead is 
dictating what's happening in 

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the follow is following what's 
happening and that instead 

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defining it as a call and 
response. 

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00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:39,480
The lead starts the sentence, 
the follow finishes it. 

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00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:41,400
That turns it into a 
collaboration. 

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00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:45,600
And that turns it into not that 
men lead and women follow, but 

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00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:47,760
that everyone is just talking 
here. 

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00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:50,720
Totally. 
And like it's also when you when

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00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:53,040
the follow finishes a sentence, 
it's also the beginning of the 

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00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:55,400
next sentence. 
Yes, right. 

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00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:59,240
So it's like if we look, if we 
just challenge ourselves to look

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00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:03,160
a little bit wider at the 
perspective, the conversation 

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00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:06,400
really is call in response where
the response is also the next 

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00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,240
call. 
And so that's really hard to 

201
00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:11,400
understand if you haven't tried 
a little bit of both. 

202
00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:16,960
Absolutely, absolutely. 
So there's been this etiquette, 

203
00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:24,160
this dance etiquette that we've 
had for a long time of men ask 

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00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:29,160
women to dance and the women 
stand to the side and they wait 

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00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:32,320
to be chosen, and then the men 
come up and choose them. 

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00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:38,760
And I think that the really 
beautiful thing about ELEF is 

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00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:41,640
that it completely disrupts all 
of these etiquettes. 

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00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:50,960
Kate, especially since you've 
been in salsa that has lots of, 

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00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:54,280
you know, can have lots of 
gendered etiquette in the salsa 

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00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:56,960
communities, do you want to 
speak a little bit more to some 

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00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:59,440
of those etiquettes that have 
existed? 

212
00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:02,440
Oh my gosh, I have, I feel 
really strongly about this 

213
00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:07,160
because when I learned to dance,
I was literally handed a sheet 

214
00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:10,760
and by 1 teacher I was handed a 
sheet of etiquette. 

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00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:13,840
It had like dance etiquette 
listed on it. 

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00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:16,960
And at the time I was like, yes,
they're telling me what to do. 

217
00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:19,560
I love this. 
And it felt really like it 

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00:12:19,560 --> 00:12:21,040
almost felt like a code of 
conduct. 

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00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:25,000
So it was like, I don't know. 
I just, like had no idea that 

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there was more than this. 
But the etiquette was like, 

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00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:36,600
don't say no. 
Men are, you know, you're gonna 

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00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:40,120
like, wait to be asked and then 
the people. 

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00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:42,600
Only handed out to the the No. 
It was handed. 

224
00:12:42,680 --> 00:12:44,480
It was handed to everybody. 
OK? 

225
00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:47,920
It was handed to everybody. 
But it was like, so it's like 

226
00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:49,600
men weren't supposed to say no 
either. 

227
00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:51,160
Like nobody was supposed to say 
no. 

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00:12:51,560 --> 00:12:57,240
Yeah, if you say no to a dance, 
you're not allowed to say yes to

229
00:12:57,240 --> 00:12:59,600
somebody else within that same 
song. 

230
00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:02,680
So like if you have a know about
somebody, you're just supposed 

231
00:13:02,680 --> 00:13:05,040
to be like, I'm not dancing to 
that whole song because you 

232
00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:06,560
don't want to hurt somebody's 
feelings. 

233
00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:10,080
You have to like say you need a 
break or sit out the whole song 

234
00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:13,880
or or whatever. 
And I can't remember any of the 

235
00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:19,120
other like specifics, but the 
whole vibe was all around not 

236
00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:24,320
hurting each other and just like
being kind of being kind of 

237
00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:26,840
passive really. 
Yeah, well, I would correct you 

238
00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:29,400
too with not hurting each other.
It's not about physically 

239
00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:30,800
hurting or like having a safe 
dance. 

240
00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:34,120
It was more about not making the
status quo uncomfortable. 

241
00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:35,880
Correct. 
Staying within the status quo. 

242
00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:38,880
Correct. 
And it at that time it wasn't, 

243
00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:42,600
it wasn't explicitly that men 
ask women to dance, but at that 

244
00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,680
time there was no other movement
happening. 

245
00:13:45,680 --> 00:13:50,240
So it was just implied that it's
women that aren't really saying 

246
00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:54,320
are being asked to not say no 
because we hadn't kind of 

247
00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:57,120
unpacked yet that anybody can 
ask anybody to dance at that 

248
00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:01,200
time, which is now very quickly 
after like a year or two later, 

249
00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,840
it was very clear that we were 
saying, oh, you know, that's 

250
00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:07,760
actually bullshit. 
Women can ask men to dance or 

251
00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,080
anybody of any gender can reach 
out. 

252
00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:13,440
But it's really taken time to 
unpack that because that's like 

253
00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:17,560
decades worth of etiquette all 
boiled down into one piece of 

254
00:14:17,560 --> 00:14:18,280
paper. 
Yeah. 

255
00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:21,840
Yeah, well, it really brings up 
a lot of things about consent 

256
00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:26,520
with that, and how when you have
more of a culture of people 

257
00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:31,320
knowing both roles, it just 
opens up conversations to have 

258
00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:36,440
more power balance across who's 
asking who to dance, which 

259
00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:42,040
allows space for consent and to 
be able to say a yes or a no in 

260
00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:44,240
a really grounded way. 
Totally. 

261
00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:47,720
And like, I feel like the new 
etiquette that we, we talk about

262
00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:50,600
this a little bit in this 
handbook that we're writing, 

263
00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:54,920
which we'll get a little bit 
more into later, but the new 

264
00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:58,680
etiquette is all about having 
conversations of consent. 

265
00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:03,320
Yeah. 
And I feel like when we talk 

266
00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:07,600
about introducing ELEF or 
keeping ELEF alive, it doesn't 

267
00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:13,120
just disrupt, it also just like 
eliminates that like boiled down

268
00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:17,600
list of expectations and just 
kind of Sky's the limit because 

269
00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:20,520
it's offering people the need 
to, to have a conversation. 

270
00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:23,480
Like people are not going to 
know if I'm a follower or a lead

271
00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:25,920
because of ELEF, so they have to
actually ask me. 

272
00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:27,520
Right. 
You actually have to have the 

273
00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:29,040
conversation. 
That's something that 

274
00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:34,080
heteronormativity does or that a
lot of white supremacy does, 

275
00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:38,880
that it removes this 
authenticity that every 

276
00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:41,520
individual has to be able to 
choose what they are. 

277
00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:45,200
And it gives a dictation of what
you are and what that when that 

278
00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:49,400
happens, it removes your ability
to like talk about it and have 

279
00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:53,680
that agency and just starts this
like assumed nightmare that 

280
00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:55,720
everybody has to just dump jump 
into. 

281
00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:58,400
Right. 
And I do feel like that's so 

282
00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,680
true. 
And I do feel like just just 

283
00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,800
introducing ELEF and the idea 
that like consent is about 

284
00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,720
conversations and authenticity, 
like that's kind of all it is. 

285
00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:12,240
It's not rocket science. 
It really isn't that complex. 

286
00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:16,800
It's just means we have to 
engage in communication. 

287
00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:18,080
Right. 
And it means that we need to, 

288
00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:22,720
like, listen to ourselves and 
listen to and respect our own 

289
00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:26,200
boundaries, which is really hard
to do in a culture, especially 

290
00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:28,920
if you've been socialized as a 
woman tells you that your 

291
00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:32,000
boundaries mean that you won't 
be accepted or chosen. 

292
00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,720
Exactly, exactly. 
And I, I obviously we're getting

293
00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:41,480
fired up because this is like 
why we started D gender dance. 

294
00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:44,680
I feel like a big piece of why 
we started it, but it also 

295
00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,680
brings up this other concept of 
in gendering. 

296
00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:50,160
And that's kind of what I feel 
like Lou is touching on is like 

297
00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:56,160
D gendering is like about making
it welcome for everybody and not

298
00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:58,960
assuming gender. 
But in gendering is really about

299
00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:03,520
embodiment, yes. 
And when we embody who it is 

300
00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:07,240
that we really, really are on 
the dance floor, we get to show 

301
00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,760
up as our true selves. 
And that means maybe one minute 

302
00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:13,400
we're a lead, one minute we're a
follow, one minute we're a 

303
00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:15,480
switch, and one minute we 
actually just don't even want to

304
00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:17,800
dance at all. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

305
00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:21,480
Being able to listen to that 
authentic voice inside of us. 

306
00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:25,079
You have to get kind of quiet 
and really listen to be able to 

307
00:17:25,079 --> 00:17:27,319
know what that is and then to 
act on it. 

308
00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:30,320
Totally, totally. 
Yeah. 

309
00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,800
So like, what are some ways I 
want to just get into like a 

310
00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:38,680
little bit of application? 
What are some ways dance spaces 

311
00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:47,040
can, you know, kind of introduce
this ELEF and this kind of 

312
00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:51,880
conversation forward movement? 
So bringing ELEF into your 

313
00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,880
classrooms is a really great way
to bring this into your 

314
00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:59,120
community because when people 
are in your classrooms, you're 

315
00:17:59,120 --> 00:18:02,320
setting up the culture for the 
rest of your community. 

316
00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:06,000
So introducing just a little bit
of ELEF or even when you just 

317
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:09,320
introduce the roles, like a 
really great way to set up this 

318
00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,560
precedent is in your like a 
beginner drop in before the 

319
00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:16,600
social when people are coming in
your door for the first time. 

320
00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:22,080
Just in your spiel about what 
the dance roles are, say that it

321
00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,200
has nothing to do about gender. 
You can choose whatever role you

322
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:29,000
want and that it's not a forever
thing that you can choose to do 

323
00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:30,760
something else whenever you 
want. 

324
00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:34,560
Setting up that precedent the 
first time anyone starts to lead

325
00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:37,480
or follow can have a lot to do 
with changing the culture. 

326
00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:41,320
Yeah, I love that. 
And you can find ways to 

327
00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,640
describe what leading and 
following is that doesn't have 

328
00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:48,520
anything to do with outdated 
gender norms. 

329
00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:51,240
Absolutely. 
One way I saw someone, I was in 

330
00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:55,000
this two step class and this 
person, it was a queer class. 

331
00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:58,800
So she really had to like break 
down what gender was because it 

332
00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:02,240
was mostly like trans masks and 
dykes in the room. 

333
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:08,280
So And so the person teaching 
the class was like, if you like 

334
00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:12,920
to drive, you may like to lead. 
And I was like, oh, that's so 

335
00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:16,000
good because, yeah, there are 
people that are like, you know, 

336
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,600
passenger princesses. 
And they'll be like, yes, I love

337
00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:20,240
to follow. 
And there's some people there 

338
00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:23,120
like, I just want to be the one 
that's driving the car. 

339
00:19:23,120 --> 00:19:25,760
And that can be like a really 
great way to understand, lead 

340
00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:28,320
and follow too. 
Oh, I love that. 

341
00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:32,000
And I'm I'm like, I like both. 
Yeah, I like Wolf too. 

342
00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,520
Yeah, but they're so fun. 
Although probably prefer to 

343
00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:39,720
drive, let's be honest. 
That's cool. 

344
00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:42,200
I like that. 
And yeah, just like giving folks

345
00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:46,680
that opportunity. 
And I think also there's kind of

346
00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:51,400
two approaches or like very 
broad umbrellas of approaches. 

347
00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:53,840
And 1 is just to like teach your
whole class. 

348
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,400
If, if you're in that beginner 
class, like you were talking 

349
00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:58,440
about, Lou, teach your whole 
class where everybody just 

350
00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:02,920
switches back and forth. 
Or you could do like, OK, give 

351
00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:06,240
people an opportunity to choose 
and change their minds and then 

352
00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,000
just do some little bit of 
element where the other person 

353
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:11,840
gets to experience the other 
role. 

354
00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:15,160
Yeah. 
And I, I feel like everybody's 

355
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,040
going to. 
Understand this next thing I'm 

356
00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:21,520
going to say, which is that 
there is serious pushback not 

357
00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:25,760
just from teachers but also 
students are afraid that like, 

358
00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:30,000
learning both in the beginning 
is going to be too hard. 

359
00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,280
Like it's going to confuse them 
or they're just going to get 

360
00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:37,440
overwhelmed or like it's maybe 
just scary to like some people 

361
00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:39,920
are scared to lead, some people 
are scared to follow. 

362
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:46,240
And I want to just push back a 
little bit on that and say that 

363
00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:50,280
that kind of comes from this 
idea of perfectionism that like 

364
00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:53,760
you need to be good at it for it
to have worked. 

365
00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,000
And, and it doesn't need to, you
don't need to like leave your 

366
00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,760
first class and feel like you 
are have mastered the basic or 

367
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:03,160
whatever. 
You just need to have 

368
00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:05,840
experienced a little bit of what
the dance was like and see if 

369
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,920
you want to go back. 
Yes, absolutely. 

370
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:11,960
So that push back, like I just 
want to like challenge teachers 

371
00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,920
and students to be like, hey, 
it's OK if I, if I did both 

372
00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:19,200
roles and like one of them felt 
like my brain was falling apart.

373
00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:20,240
Right. 
Yeah. 

374
00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,600
You know that's that's a good 
thing actually. 

375
00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:23,760
Totally. 
Oh, that's really. 

376
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:26,040
Exciting because that means that
you're pushing yourself out of 

377
00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:27,920
your comfort zone and that 
you're learning a lot. 

378
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:30,240
Yeah, and that's just a good 
thing. 

379
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:32,760
Totally. 
Yeah, your neuro pathways are 

380
00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:34,440
like whoa. 
Yeah, totally. 

381
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:38,280
Actually I've heard that 
learning both lead and follow in

382
00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:42,360
a dance can do as much for your 
brain as being bilingual and 

383
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,480
speaking 2 languages that it's 
actually like really good for 

384
00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,320
all your neural pathways to 
understand something from both 

385
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,480
sides. 
Wow, I love that. 

386
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:55,160
I love that so much. 
That's that's really what it is 

387
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,920
too. 
They are like they're two 

388
00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:01,920
dialects of the same language in
a way, but they're languages for

389
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:03,680
sure. 
I love that analogy. 

390
00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:05,080
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

391
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:10,760
So I feel like the other thing, 
like ELEF is amazing and I think

392
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,440
it's really valuable. 
And I think the other one is 

393
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:19,440
like role play. 
Yes, and it's so valuable to 

394
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:25,000
role play asking someone how to 
dance in front of students so 

395
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:29,640
you can also role play what it's
like to say no, but also to be 

396
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,480
able to role play like what does
it look like to have this 

397
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:37,720
conversation that talks about 
all of these roles and options 

398
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:42,720
that you can have in a dance now
with if it's no longer the a man

399
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:47,840
asking a woman to to follow, 
then what does asking someone to

400
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:49,760
dance look like? 
And this role-playing can be a 

401
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:51,840
really great way to do that. 
Yeah. 

402
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:58,160
So like just giving students the
opportunity to practice and I 

403
00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:02,160
feel like that's something that 
is also like role-playing is a 

404
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:04,040
little awkward. 
At least it has been really for 

405
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:08,440
me as a student because it means
you're trying something maybe 

406
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:10,600
you've never tried before. 
Yes, yes. 

407
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:14,360
And maybe like feeling like 
that's a little bit awkward and 

408
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:19,280
breaking out of old norms and 
standards is going to feel a 

409
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,440
little bit awkward, but it makes
it so much better. 

410
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,600
Now when I'm at a social, I 
literally just like I notice 

411
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,440
first of all, that people just 
want to jump into the dance once

412
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,080
we've agreed to dance with each 
other. 

413
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:36,160
And I, I really do try to like 
slow it down and be like, well, 

414
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,040
what's your name? 
Do you want to lead, follow or 

415
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,400
switch? 
This is what I'm kind of looking

416
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,400
for. 
And just like, I don't know, 

417
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,200
it's like a consent 
conversation, just like 30 

418
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,720
seconds of getting to know each 
other. 

419
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,200
A little conversation about what
we're doing that might be 

420
00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:55,040
uncomfortable for us because we 
don't, we're not socialized to 

421
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:56,640
have these consent 
conversations. 

422
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:58,840
But the more we do it, the more 
comfortable we get. 

423
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:04,800
And you mentioned a really great
way to put all these options on 

424
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:08,840
the table with this dance menu 
of a way to ask somebody what to

425
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,520
dance of just state what the 
options are. 

426
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:13,840
Would you like to lead follower 
switch? 

427
00:24:14,120 --> 00:24:16,800
That's like the first question I
ask anybody when they ask me to 

428
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:18,040
dance. 
I'm like, OK, what do you want 

429
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:19,360
to do? 
Do you want to lead follower 

430
00:24:19,360 --> 00:24:23,320
switch? 
And sometimes I can switch that 

431
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,720
like that. 
I'll change the conversation. 

432
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,400
There'll be nights where it's 
like, I only want to lead. 

433
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,400
I have these moves that I'm 
working on and I'm only leading 

434
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:33,000
tonight. 
So someone will ask me to dance 

435
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:34,840
and be like, I'm working on my 
leading. 

436
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,560
Would you like to follow for me?
And some people are like, oh, I 

437
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:39,320
don't like following. 
And it's like, OK, then we're 

438
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:40,560
not a match. 
Have a good night. 

439
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:45,520
And something happens a lot 
when, you know, someone asks me 

440
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:47,400
to dance and then I'm like lead,
follow, switch. 

441
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,080
And then they go, I only want to
follow. 

442
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:54,320
Is that OK? 
I'm like, yes, any answer to 

443
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:58,560
that is the correct answer, even
if it's means that we're not a 

444
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:00,360
match. 
Because what you're telling me 

445
00:25:00,360 --> 00:25:03,040
is what you feel authentically 
best doing. 

446
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,800
And that is the correct answer 
to that question. 

447
00:25:06,360 --> 00:25:08,880
Absolutely. 
And I feel like it also requires

448
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,680
that little bit of like personal
check in before you even talk to

449
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,480
the person. 
Like what am I really up for? 

450
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,200
Am I really up for any of these 
three things? 

451
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:21,440
Because if I'm not, then I'm 
kind of building myself up for, 

452
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:23,200
like, a little bit of resentment
during the dance. 

453
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,720
Yeah. 
Because I have to be honest. 

454
00:25:26,120 --> 00:25:28,640
And I'm going to trust that the 
other person is being honest. 

455
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:33,520
And that's how we find a fit for
a dance that feels engendered 

456
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,120
and authentic and stuff. 
So yeah. 

457
00:25:36,120 --> 00:25:38,800
And I feel like role-playing 
that in class. 

458
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:44,320
It's kind of, I've noticed it in
my classes where it's kind of 

459
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:48,400
like a little bumpy and then all
of a sudden I can see it really 

460
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,240
start to take off where people 
are like getting into it. 

461
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:56,600
I've noticed that a lot with 
beginners where they're like and

462
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:58,720
then like all of a sudden I'm 
like, oh, they're like really 

463
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:03,600
having fun saying no. 
Yes, yes, it's kind of amazing 

464
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:08,400
when especially if like in 
Seattle, we have so many tech 

465
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,640
people. 
And I've noticed that a lot of 

466
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,600
people that work in the tech 
industry don't get to say no 

467
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,960
very often. 
So when you give them a lot of 

468
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:21,480
space to have agency, it can 
feel really empowering. 

469
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,280
And that's what that definitely 
goes for people who have been 

470
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:28,160
socialized as women, because 
we're socialized not to say no. 

471
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,600
Right. 
Oh my gosh, yes, that's so true.

472
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:36,280
And I feel like it's like any 
new practice, it just gets 

473
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,280
easier and more embodied, but 
you have to try it. 

474
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:42,640
So let's talk a little bit more 
about the menu. 

475
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:44,560
What is this menu like? 
Let's break it down just a 

476
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:48,440
little bit. 
So the menu, it can be anything 

477
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:50,960
you feel like dancing, any 
options that you want to give 

478
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,880
people. 
The main three options are you 

479
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,160
can either lead, you can follow,
or you can switch dance. 

480
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,120
And that can really change 
because you know, I say that all

481
00:27:01,120 --> 00:27:04,640
the time in Lindy Hop because 
those are the three ways that I 

482
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:08,120
dance. 
But if I go to a salsa social, 

483
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:11,400
switch dancing and salsa can be 
really hard. 

484
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,000
So I'm probably only going to 
ask Kate to switch dance with 

485
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,760
me, especially because I'm not a
very good salsa lead. 

486
00:27:18,120 --> 00:27:21,880
So if I'm at a salsa social, 
someone might come up and ask me

487
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:23,800
to dance and I'll be like, would
you like to lead for me? 

488
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,880
I'm really working on following 
so that menu can be really. 

489
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:32,360
Versatile yes, I love that and I
think that there you know, there

490
00:27:32,360 --> 00:27:36,240
can be more than just the dance 
roll menu too. 

491
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:42,760
There can be like the the menu 
of like I have an injury. 

492
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,600
Are you OK not doing this kind 
of turn, you know, just like 

493
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:52,200
basically or you know, I'm 
having an inner ear problem, 

494
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,240
which this is my thing. 
I have an inner ear problem. 

495
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,320
Please, no more than two spins 
at a time. 

496
00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:00,480
Or, you know, just like giving 
people more about who you are as

497
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,080
a dancer. 
And it can and it, it starts 

498
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,600
with lead, follow and switch. 
And then it can be more than 

499
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,120
that if you need it. 
To be, yes. 

500
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:10,880
I mean, you think you go into a 
restaurant and they hand you a 

501
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:12,760
menu. 
What they're doing is they're 

502
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,440
telling you, here's all the 
experiences that you can have 

503
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,960
while you're here, Which ones 
would you like to experience? 

504
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,320
And that's what you're doing. 
You're setting up the parameters

505
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:26,200
of what you can offer people. 
Yep, I love that. 

506
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,840
And it doesn't just have to be 
the person asking, you know, 

507
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,080
like. 
Yes, both people set up that 

508
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,400
like, yes. 
Like in this instance, like the 

509
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,320
person at the restaurant table 
also hands a menu back, and then

510
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:39,920
you figure out where the overlap
is. 

511
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:41,200
Yes. 
Yeah. 

512
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,160
And then you get to, like, have 
that experience. 

513
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:48,080
I Yeah, That's cool. 
So Kate already mentioned our 

514
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,080
handbook. 
It's really exciting. 

515
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:51,280
This is the first time we're 
like talking. 

516
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,240
So exciting. 
Publicly, because we've been 

517
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,680
working behind the scenes on a 
de gender dance handbook for the

518
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:01,320
past year and we have been 
making. 

519
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:06,880
There's a ton of different 
modules on it about things like 

520
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:13,760
respecting the root and history 
of the dance and decolonizing 

521
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:19,160
your classroom and. 
Safer dance spaces. 

522
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:24,000
Safer Dance Spaces, the the 
module we've been working on to 

523
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,280
release first, is about gender 
and equity in dance spaces. 

524
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,840
So this episode's a little bit 
of a taster and a little bit of 

525
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,960
a preview into this really 
exciting project that we're 

526
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,000
working on. 
Yeah. 

527
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:40,200
A lot of the stuff that we 
talked about throughout many 

528
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:44,240
episodes of our podcast has kind
of like there's been some 

529
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:49,600
dabbles, but this one really is 
a big chunk of the gender equity

530
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:51,640
module that Lou was just talking
about. 

531
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,520
And it is really exciting. 
It's something that we've been 

532
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,600
kind of behind the scenes, been 
working on for a long time now, 

533
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,280
and we're getting really close 
to releasing it sometime in 

534
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,920
2026. 
Yes, it'll be out sometime this 

535
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:08,320
year, hopefully by the summer, 
and there will be lots of really

536
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,080
cool things. 
We're even like hoping about 

537
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:14,200
making a little Zen edition and 
it should be a really cool thing

538
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,840
that y'all can. 
It'll have so much information 

539
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:23,640
in it about how you as a dancer 
can be bringing degener dance 

540
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:28,480
values and decolonizing your 
dance practice, and also, if 

541
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,160
you're a dance teacher, really 
amazing ways to be setting up 

542
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,440
your classrooms. 
Absolutely. 

543
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:35,360
Super exciting. 
So look out for that. 

544
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:38,400
I think we're going to call it a
day. 

545
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:39,520
Yeah, let's bring. 
It home. 

546
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:43,160
Let's bring it on home. 
So as usual, leave us a review 

547
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:44,800
on your favorite podcasting 
platform. 

548
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,760
That's a really valuable way to 
get people to come listen to our

549
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,560
podcast that may not be 
connected to us already. 

550
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:55,080
Yes, and all love letters, 
suggestions and feedback can be 

551
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,920
sent to dgenderdance@gmail.com. 
Please e-mail us, we'd love to 

552
00:30:58,920 --> 00:30:59,480
hear from you. 
Woo. 

553
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,320
Hoo, thank you so much for for 
listening and tuning in. 

554
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,840
It means the world to us, and 
we'll see you next time. 

555
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:08,920
Thanks for tuning in, have a 
great day. 

556
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:09,320
Bye.