1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:02,400 5678. Rock. 2 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:09,920 Step triple step rock. Step Hi, my name is Kate and my 3 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:12,800 pronouns are they them? And my name is Lou, and my 4 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:15,600 pronouns are also they them. Just to they themes talking 5 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:17,840 about dance. Dance and stuff. 6 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:22,680 Dance and stuff as usual, Lou, what's on the docket today? 7 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:27,080 Today we are talking about white supremacy and dance. 8 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:31,640 This is actually Part 2 of A2 part series where we're talking 9 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:35,400 about the subject. And in Part 1, we started going 10 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:38,800 through this list by Temo Kuhn and we're going to be going 11 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:41,640 through the second part of the the list in this episode. 12 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:48,040 So what this list does is it really calls out the behaviors, 13 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:51,600 the very common behaviors that lots of people have that allow 14 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:54,760 white supremacy to exist within society and within groups. 15 00:00:55,200 --> 00:01:00,760 And this is a list that I've been turning towards for years 16 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,480 to check myself and to also understand the groups that I'm 17 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:09,080 participating in more deeply. And Kate and I are going through 18 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:12,640 this list item by item. If you want to hear a little bit 19 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,960 more about what the list is or hear the first half of the list, 20 00:01:15,960 --> 00:01:18,080 you can just head back over to Part 1. 21 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:22,880 But to kick off this Part 2 episode, Kate, would you just 22 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:24,640 read the entire list? For us. 23 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,720 OK, so these are the characteristics of white 24 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:32,560 supremacy from Tema Akun's list. Either or thinking 25 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:38,280 perfectionism, sense of urgency, defensiveness, quantity over 26 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:42,240 quality, worship of the written word, only one right way, 27 00:01:42,320 --> 00:01:47,200 paternalism, power hoarding, fear of open open conflict, 28 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:50,200 individualism. I'm the only one. 29 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:54,840 Progress is bigger, more objectivity and right to 30 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:57,000 comfort. Amazing. 31 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:01,480 So we unpacked either or thinking through only one right 32 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,000 way in that first episode, and then we're going to be picking 33 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:07,480 this up at paternalism. And, you know, for context, 34 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:09,759 we're also, you know, this is a dance podcast. 35 00:02:09,759 --> 00:02:12,720 So we're really, we're kind of drilling down into the dance 36 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:17,240 world, but also think about all the different organizations and 37 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:20,040 people that this effects. And it is really everyone and 38 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:22,600 everywhere. Yeah, This is like the this is 39 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:26,520 the ocean that we swim in. Like this white supremacy is the 40 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,920 dominant culture, especially in the Western world, especially in 41 00:02:29,920 --> 00:02:33,200 America. And this shows up everywhere. 42 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:36,000 And if it shows up everywhere, it's definitely going to show up 43 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:38,160 in our dance communities. And I think that our dance 44 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:41,840 communities are really uniquely posed to be a place where we can 45 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,080 start to counter these things and bring the antidotes into it. 46 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:47,920 We already see a lot of the antidotes in this world. 47 00:02:47,920 --> 00:02:51,160 And I think that, Yeah, if we bringing this list into the 48 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:54,600 focus of dance can be just a really incredible way to look at 49 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:56,720 it. Yes, totally agree, and it can 50 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:59,840 be uncomfortable too and that's really part of it. 51 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:01,560 That's part of it. Yeah. 52 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:03,440 So shall we, shall we get into it? 53 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:06,360 Let's, let's look at paternalism first. 54 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:08,720 I'll just toss out the definition. 55 00:03:08,920 --> 00:03:13,160 Definition is decision making is clear to those with power and 56 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,480 unclear to those without it. If you don't have power, you are 57 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:20,160 affected by decisions and have no power to be a part of the 58 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:23,200 decision making. And the quote is because I said 59 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:26,640 so. And that's such a like parent 60 00:03:26,640 --> 00:03:29,440 thing. Like that's kind of the trope of 61 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:32,160 what like a parent says when they're giving a reasoning for a 62 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:34,160 rule or whatever. It's just 'cause, just 'cause, I 63 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:35,600 said. So right, right. 64 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:41,120 Instead of like and knowing what the reason is or having a full 65 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:45,360 understanding or let alone a say in like why these things are 66 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:47,600 going on. And I think that that, like, 67 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:51,400 being treated as children culturally is like a big part of 68 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,280 what brings paternalism to power dynamics. 69 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:55,920 And there's so much of that in dance, right? 70 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:59,880 And so we see that in, like, the dance world, I mean, in lots of 71 00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:03,520 ways. But one example is contests like 72 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:06,040 yeah, this hierarchy, right? Totally. 73 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:08,840 I was like, kind of wanted like, what are they writing on those 74 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,960 clipboards, right? What's going on in there? 75 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:17,120 And the contests have so much in the competitive dance world of 76 00:04:17,519 --> 00:04:23,440 the contest winners are the the leaders of the community. 77 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:28,880 And it's not always very trance transparent how those contests 78 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:33,800 are being decided upon and where those decisions are happening. 79 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,080 And they have a great effect on the rest of the community. 80 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:37,880 It's true. And I feel like there are 81 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:44,880 contests in in dances that have like that are standardized, like 82 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:47,480 West Coast Swing. There are contests where it's 83 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:49,680 like, you know, very clearly ahead of time what they're 84 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:53,360 looking for. But even a judge who's looking 85 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:56,360 for a certain kind of like turn out in a foot is going to have a 86 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,000 personal feeling about that. And they don't have to explain 87 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:00,880 themselves. And we're still looking to 88 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:06,160 people to judge us to create the kind of hierarchy that we see in 89 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:08,960 dance. Yeah, that is just about what 90 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:12,360 these people behind the clipboard like you said or are 91 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,400 feeling and thinking. There's a lot of like energy and 92 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:18,560 societal structure that goes into like that first, second, 93 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:19,480 third. That. 94 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:20,760 Happens. Yeah. 95 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:23,720 Big question that I have around contests. 96 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:25,760 What, a contest without white supremacy. 97 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:28,760 What does that look like? Like, because that does exist, 98 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:31,360 but I don't have any concept of what that's like. 99 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:32,720 I don't really. That's something that I would 100 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:34,400 really love to be able to find out one day. 101 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:37,000 Yeah, yeah. If you have any things like 102 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,080 things to share, drop us a comment. 103 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:41,040 Yeah, that's on this. If there's anyone we could 104 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:43,200 interview that would help us understand if you know any cool 105 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:45,680 contests. But yeah, then some antidotes, 106 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:49,680 including people in the decision making of what our contests and 107 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,880 like what our dance world looks like, right? 108 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:56,520 Like if we're going to be in a contest, include more than just 109 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:59,920 like 3 top tier people in what that contest looks like. 110 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:05,840 I think that there there can be of just like clearly posting 111 00:06:05,840 --> 00:06:10,000 what the rules are, what the dance contest looking for, what 112 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:15,120 kind of point systems you use, what those points mean, people 113 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:18,680 who have won in the past, like so people can have a really 114 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:22,560 clear idea of what a dance contest, you know, and like what 115 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:25,400 that's actually deciding. I think an antidote too, is 116 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:29,400 something that we, you know, dance organizers always like, 117 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:31,960 it's like the tyranny of the fact that dance communities are 118 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:33,520 also businesses. That means that there's a 119 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:36,080 business owner and that business owner is making decisions for 120 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:40,240 the community based upon their business decisions. 121 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,000 And that can be so harmful for the community. 122 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:45,880 So if there's an if, there's an antidote that if you really want 123 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:51,720 to be treating your community like community, you involve 124 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:53,800 everybody in the kind of decisions that are. 125 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,800 Totally, Yeah. And I think that that, I mean, 126 00:06:56,800 --> 00:07:00,160 on the face of it, it sounds like a really big endeavor, but 127 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:02,800 it also is kind of liberating because it means that the 128 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,920 organizers don't also have to be trying to be perfect. 129 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:09,000 Right, Right. It's like a pooled resource of 130 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:10,440 like what the whole community wants. 131 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:11,880 And it kind of takes the pressure off. 132 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:14,000 But I think that's hard to see when you have power. 133 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:17,720 Yes, yes, because you have to let go a lot of control within 134 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,520 that, but and there's a great reward of letting go with 135 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:21,960 control because you get the support. 136 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:23,720 Totally. Yeah, totally. 137 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,280 I feel like that's a really good transition into the next one, 138 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:30,400 which is power hoarding. Yes, right, yes. 139 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:31,920 Do you want to define that one for us, Lou? 140 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:35,920 So power seen is limited. That's where it's like, you 141 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:39,480 know, we talk about how power is not pie, like, you know, there's 142 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:42,840 more than just one slice that you can get. 143 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:47,080 There's there's infinite amount. And it's those with power feel 144 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:49,720 threatened when anyone suggests changes and how the how things 145 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:51,320 should be done in the organization. 146 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:57,880 Anyone who has power is both like, in control, but they're 147 00:07:57,880 --> 00:07:59,960 also threatened all the time because they don't want anyone 148 00:07:59,960 --> 00:08:02,800 else to like, take their power. Right, because they have to hold 149 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:05,440 on to it. Like, yeah, it's that the the 150 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:09,280 game of white supremacy is being the one that holds all the 151 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:11,040 Monopoly money. Like you're the one that's 152 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:13,920 supposed to get all of all the things. 153 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:18,680 Let's get into some dance examples about it because the 154 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,520 studios are just so competitive. They are. 155 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:25,320 It's. Very like, and it's hard again 156 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:27,560 because you're a small business. Right. 157 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:31,520 So that creates these kind of dynamics where they're really 158 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:35,520 resource guarding what it is that they have just to survive 159 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,120 as a business. Right, absolutely. 160 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:41,760 I think that one of the really things that's important to 161 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,520 remember is that those resources that you're guarding are people. 162 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:48,600 They're they're humans that are dancing and they're coming to, 163 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:52,920 you know, participate in community, which is so vital to 164 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:55,720 us having, you know, society in general. 165 00:08:56,080 --> 00:09:01,760 That when you that when organizers and when people come 166 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:08,000 in with wanting to draw lines in the sand of, you know, trying to 167 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:14,400 get as many people loyal to them and not loyal to others can just 168 00:09:14,560 --> 00:09:17,960 be not conducive to a super happy dance community. 169 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:21,200 Right. And I feel like, I mean, there's 170 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:23,760 some things that the dance world does really well. 171 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:26,240 And one of them is like this kind of idea that, like, we 172 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:27,800 don't step on each other's toes with. 173 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:32,080 Like, like I know for instance, in the salsa world in Seattle, 174 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:34,160 you know, most everyone is really trying to hold their 175 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:36,440 event when another event isn't happening. 176 00:09:36,680 --> 00:09:38,640 Right, it's like the dates choosing the dates. 177 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:42,280 What night is your social on? And like that, I mean, obviously 178 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:44,880 that's something you want to consider. 179 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:47,080 They're considering it for other businesses, but they're also 180 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:50,520 considering it for their own. Like, we don't want half of the 181 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:54,760 community to be at a different address across town or whatever 182 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:58,160 when we're having our event. But I also see it as kind of 183 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:02,200 this thing that that is like a communal thing that that 184 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,160 organizers and studios do communicate about often. 185 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:08,040 I've noticed that, which is a nice thing to see. 186 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:13,160 That's definitely the antidote to it too, of realizing that the 187 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,080 really what you need to do is collaborate, right? 188 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:20,280 And that it's not about, you know, creating these little 189 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:24,080 castles of your own little dance socials and then seeing who can 190 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:27,280 get the more people in the door. That it's about realizing that 191 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:31,560 high tide means all boats float and how do we all come together 192 00:10:31,560 --> 00:10:35,240 and create an ecosystem of dance rather than these like 193 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:37,160 individual studios? Totally. 194 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,720 And like, the reality is if, if more people are, if there's more 195 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:44,000 stuff going on that's dance related, it is going to get more 196 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:46,920 people interested in dancing more. 197 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:50,800 And so that I like that high tide analogy because it does 198 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:56,080 mean that dance is more more of a community for everyone and 199 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:58,600 that there's more stuff going on dance related. 200 00:10:58,680 --> 00:11:03,120 The next one is on the list is fear of open conflict, which 201 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:06,360 I'll just define as emphasis on being plagued. 202 00:11:06,680 --> 00:11:09,680 When someone raises an issue that causes discomfort, that 203 00:11:09,680 --> 00:11:13,040 response is to blame the person for raising the issue rather 204 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:15,200 than to look at the issue which was actually causing the 205 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:16,280 problem. Who? 206 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:20,040 This is a big one. It's a really, really big one. 207 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,720 Yeah, this is like in in very few words, this is the 208 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:26,160 equivalent of like victim blaming in the scene. 209 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:28,240 Yeah, right. Absolutely. 210 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:30,560 I mean, this is in like on a really wide stage. 211 00:11:30,560 --> 00:11:33,360 This is like, Israel has the right to defend itself, right? 212 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:37,240 And it's like, OK, well, you're not looking at the genocide that 213 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,440 they're creating, that Palestine is trying to defend themselves. 214 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:43,440 You're just looking at the person with the most power and 215 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:47,360 just like doing whatever you need to do to think that their 216 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:49,120 power is infallible. Yes. 217 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:52,480 And the fear of like that is like so related to that right to 218 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:56,960 comfort, which we talked about or we'll talk about, but the 219 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:01,240 fear of open conflict, like I see it specifically as this kind 220 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:05,960 of like sweeping under the rug of the real problem. 221 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:11,600 And it really is like this. I see it as like a, you know, 222 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:14,800 from a Waspy family. I'm like, it's the, it's this 223 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:18,720 idea that there's like all this turmoil going on underneath, but 224 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:22,360 like no one actually sees it. Right, because you just have to 225 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:24,960 swallow it down like that's we talked a lot the last episode 226 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:27,160 too, about how this is like a list of nervous system 227 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:29,400 dysregulation Totally. And this is like a really big 228 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:31,600 one. This is being stuck in fawn like 229 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:36,480 there's harm that's allowed to to be existing, but you don't 230 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:39,840 have like your nervous system is shut down so that you don't 231 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,600 speak about it. And that's like our nervous 232 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:45,280 systems regulate like that together and stuff like that. 233 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:47,480 And that's something that like you'll all be in this nervous 234 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:50,320 system shut down where like no one's like naming the really 235 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:52,560 fucked up conventions that are around. 236 00:12:52,560 --> 00:12:54,560 And then that's how like the patriarchy is allowed to exist. 237 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:57,040 Totally. And it really is just like, kind 238 00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:01,360 of like keeping up with the Joneses idea of, like, looking 239 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:06,560 good but not actually acting in accordance with what's right. 240 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,040 Yeah. And that, I mean, we do see it 241 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:11,800 in the dance world a lot, but I think we just see it in social. 242 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:16,280 It's just how our society works. It's really, it's really 243 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:20,040 infuriating, especially if you, when you start to tune into the 244 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:22,360 stories of those that are actually the victims trying to 245 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:25,200 speak up. It can be really infuriating to 246 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:28,080 be like, why are people mad at them? 247 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:30,960 Like they're, they're the ones, all they're doing is pointing 248 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:33,200 out that this harm is being created. 249 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:36,200 How are they? You know, it's like asking if 250 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:39,920 someone was a victim of sexual assault and you ask them what 251 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:42,080 were they wearing? Right, it's very akin to. 252 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:45,840 That it's the It's backwards. Yeah, it reminds me of this. 253 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:49,440 Like when I first started salsa dancing, there was like this 254 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:53,600 kind of spoken slash unspoken list of like etiquette. 255 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:59,240 And one of the etiquettes was that you don't want to say no, 256 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:02,000 right? You don't want to say no. 257 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:06,320 And back in that day, it was mostly also assumed that leads, 258 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,600 IE men were going to be asking. So it's basically like the rule 259 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,080 is not to say no to men. Yeah. 260 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:15,760 Like, wow. You can't have the conflict of 261 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:16,960 saying no. Right. 262 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:20,600 And then they leave and like there was this whole like the 263 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:23,720 opposite of whatever a whisper network is of men being like, 264 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,280 oh, I just hate it when so many girls say no. 265 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:31,200 Like that is like a a statement I've heard so many times. 266 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:36,480 And it's like, well, maybe you should say no too. 267 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,480 See how it feels like you don't have to say yes to everything, 268 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:40,760 right? Right. 269 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,760 So and like no being told no doesn't need to be conflict 270 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:46,720 either. Like that's not that's not even 271 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:49,880 conflicting, that's just even the one stating their presence. 272 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:53,000 But when you have this fear of open conflict, then even just a 273 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:56,840 simple no is not. Acceptable, right, Right. 274 00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:59,880 And I think that the fear of the open conflict is kind of like 275 00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:02,400 what happens after the aftermath of that. 276 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:05,600 Like if you say no, it's going to create this kind of dynamic 277 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,080 that that ends up being conflict when it's really just a simple 278 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:11,160 like, no, thank you. I, I'm not going to do that 279 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,600 right now. We also see it in like if there 280 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:19,840 is an injustice like the sort of organizers or whatever digging 281 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:25,000 into like more about what the person bringing the issue up has 282 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:29,000 done instead of the actual person that's been causing harm. 283 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,720 And I think that that can be really, really a hard dynamic to 284 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:38,040 negotiate. And a very common dynamic that 285 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:40,680 that happens a lot. I think so too, yeah. 286 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:43,280 So what are the antidotes with this one? 287 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:46,520 Well, I think one of the really amazing things that I see 288 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:51,360 implemented, it's one thing that the dance world has really done 289 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:56,200 positively and it's something that I hope goes from the dance 290 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:58,760 world beyond. It's like role-playing saying 291 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:03,080 no, like changing that convention of like women always 292 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,520 have to say yes to men and that like our body autonomy and like 293 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:12,680 our, you know, like us sacrificing the safety in our 294 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:16,560 own body to save the conflict that might happen. 295 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:20,000 That we're like that that just doesn't happen and dance, that 296 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,080 we just don't do that. And that we do a lot of 297 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:26,640 role-playing and like working to combat that as a convention. 298 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:30,360 And like follows and women asking men that they want to 299 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:32,440 dance with that and. Like everybody's allowed to say 300 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:34,520 no, and that was a full sentence. 301 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,920 So that it's not just women like constantly on the defensive and 302 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:41,840 having to like manage that. It's like a more like system of 303 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:44,240 people asking one another and that no is okay. 304 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:46,320 Yes. And that it's something that's 305 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:48,680 also like role played and demonstrated a lot. 306 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:53,720 So then when it happens out in the world or on the dance floor, 307 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,120 it's more like second nature, like you know that it's coming 308 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:00,600 out okay. So that they're isn't a 309 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,160 conflict, so there's No Fear of it, right? 310 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:07,599 And I think the other big one that that is an antidote that 311 00:17:07,599 --> 00:17:10,160 we're seeing more and more of is just a code of conduct in a 312 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:12,760 space, in a dance space. Yeah. 313 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:17,480 Code of conducts that really slow down whatever harm is being 314 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:22,000 created and make sure that you're supporting everybody 315 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:27,960 that's within the the conflict and really addressing it like 316 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:32,080 head on in an open way, not just like a shutdown kind of way, 317 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:34,720 yeah. It's basically just like, let's 318 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:38,680 allow these conversations to happen, yes, so that we're not 319 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:42,600 afraid of what might happen if we disagree or if, you know, 320 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:45,840 there's something to work out. I mean, that's really, that 321 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:49,880 would be huge moving forward. And one more bit of advice that 322 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:56,560 specifically what is in these, in this document written by Tema 323 00:17:56,560 --> 00:18:02,040 Kuhn talks about making sure that you're doing like a post 324 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:05,160 mortem or like a follow up or like a debrief after there's 325 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:07,360 some sort of big harm or conflict. 326 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:11,200 Is that once that the emotions have have kind of subsided, then 327 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:15,680 going and revisiting it and finding what you can do to be 328 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:19,000 sure you're serving everybody involved even better next time. 329 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:23,160 Because the idea is that conflict happens, that conflict 330 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:31,760 is a part of creating a fair and liberated society, and that in 331 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:36,160 order to not fear it, like you have to constantly be analyzing 332 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:40,840 what you've done and knowing how to be able to to move through it 333 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:43,680 even more effectively next time. Yes, it's like. 334 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:45,640 Going towards. So let's go ahead and. 335 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:47,640 Move on to the next one, individualism. 336 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:52,320 And this is a focus on competition over cooperation, 337 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:55,800 feeling like one person needing to succeed in the community 338 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:58,440 instead of like the whole community succeeding together. 339 00:18:58,840 --> 00:18:59,520 Right? Yeah. 340 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:03,000 I mean, this is just like the whole dance world. 341 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:05,400 It it kind of. It like. 342 00:19:06,120 --> 00:19:10,640 The veil got thinner and thinner as I became like, as I danced 343 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,680 longer and longer of like, Oh my goodness, it really revealed 344 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:16,120 itself to me just how much of the dance world is about 345 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:18,920 competition on like several different levels. 346 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:24,520 And like basically, of course, actual competitions where you 347 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:28,280 are competing against other people is like a very obvious 348 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:30,120 extreme of that. But just like, it's such a 349 00:19:30,120 --> 00:19:32,200 competitive world. It is. 350 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:35,040 It's even competitive with your dance partner within the dance 351 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:40,760 yes of like who is you know, being the flashiest or who is 352 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:45,240 like holding the ground the most or whatever instead of it being 353 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:49,640 like this collaboration where both people get to speak and 354 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,200 it's something where people are creating something together. 355 00:19:52,360 --> 00:19:54,920 I feel like when. You watch a dance that is very 356 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:59,520 conversational. The nervous energy of the dance 357 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:04,800 just is like, so low. You can like. 358 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:08,320 See the conversation and fluidity happening. 359 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:13,720 But there is so much about. I've been in countless dances 360 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:16,720 where I just feel like I'm kind of surviving for my life while 361 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:18,440 simultaneously trying to look good. 362 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:24,720 Like that's such a wild thing to have to manage while you're 363 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,160 just, you're really just trying to connect to the music in 364 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:31,480 somebody else and your own body. So it's that individualism, too, 365 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:35,680 is like what I hear in this definition is that you have to 366 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:37,360 be the best. Yeah. 367 00:20:37,360 --> 00:20:41,120 And you have to stand out right as an individual and then 368 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:42,680 everybody. 'S doing that, then everybody's 369 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:46,520 trying to step on everybody else on their way to the imaginary 370 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:48,560 top right. Right. 371 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:50,560 I mean, this one is kind of like straightforward, right? 372 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:54,120 It's just like the antidote is that we need to value 373 00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:56,920 cooperation with one another and, like, communicate 374 00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:59,720 physically in the dance world, like whether we're talking or 375 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,640 debriefing after something, a conflict or just like the way we 376 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,000 dance with each other. Yeah, absolutely. 377 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,840 I think that this is even where talking about having everybody 378 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,520 lead and everybody follow everybody, not necessarily 379 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,480 making everybody a switch dancer, but like everyone who is 380 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,000 a dance student at least getting a little sampler of what 381 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:18,920 dancing. The other role is creating that 382 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,320 dance empathy so that you understand that it's not just 383 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,080 you trying to survive this dance looking as fascia as possible, 384 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:29,120 but that it's a conversation happening between both of you, 385 00:21:29,120 --> 00:21:31,360 and that you can hear that because you know what the other 386 00:21:31,360 --> 00:21:33,440 side feels like. So true. 387 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:38,720 I've had so many moments of just having a like, wishing a lead 388 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:44,360 would would follow what they're leading, which is like a kind of 389 00:21:44,360 --> 00:21:46,920 what this turn feels. Like it's kind of what an evil 390 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:49,960 pop turn feels like. It's like an evil wish because 391 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:53,280 it, it, it's bred out of this feeling of like, I feel so bad 392 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,240 in this dance. I want you, you know, but it's 393 00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:01,000 what it really points to is this feeling of like when one person 394 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:05,520 is kind of dominating and being really individualistic in the 395 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:10,320 dance, It, it feels off. And so having two dancers that 396 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:14,240 can kind of understand each other's role with ELEF, you can 397 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,680 practice that. It does start to create this 398 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:20,600 more communal feeling in the in the ballroom, yeah. 399 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:23,480 And like anything you can do to kind of disrupt the 400 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:27,560 individualism and bring it into a communal space, whether that's 401 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:33,480 like organizers asking the whole community for opinions before 402 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:41,560 they make a big decision or, you know, just having more people be 403 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,040 centered in your community rather than just contest 404 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:46,720 winners. I think all of that can can make 405 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,720 it feel more like a community than just like individuals being 406 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:51,920 propped up by a community. Yeah, in. 407 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:55,560 Salsa, we talked a little bit earlier about competitions. 408 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:57,040 I'm just like wanting to throw this out there. 409 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:01,200 In salsa, the individuals that are really touted are the 410 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,880 performers. So performance is a lot more 411 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,200 common than competition in some areas. 412 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,920 Of course there is, there are competitions, but those 413 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,800 individuals are kind of seen as like the local stars. 414 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:20,840 And many of them are not my favorite people to social dance 415 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:22,800 with because they're in performance mode. 416 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:27,360 And so it's like when you feel that sense of like being less 417 00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:30,960 than, it makes you want to do what they're doing. 418 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:34,320 And so it kind of creates this rift in the community, right? 419 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,200 So like what? What would a contest be like or 420 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,880 a performance be like that was like more than just about how 421 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:43,240 you look or like how flashy or how many moves you can pack into 422 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:46,920 an 8 count or whatever, Yes. Yes, that's such a. 423 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,440 Again, if you have any ideas, drop a comment. 424 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,400 That's something I've always. Kind of joked about like we 425 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,000 should do a Bake Off or like, you know, where's the fashion 426 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:55,640 contest? Like where's something where 427 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,720 where the craziest? Outfit you can in this contest 428 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:00,560 like. Where's why aren't there more 429 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:04,000 like categories in this? Like why is everything just like 430 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,760 whose swing out is whatever the theme is I. 431 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,280 Want more people to be? Centered here like everyone, I 432 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,680 feel like an effective community gives everyone a chance to be 433 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:14,240 centered in it. I love that. 434 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,880 The theme is chocolate chip cookies. 435 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:21,000 You go. I would love that. 436 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,240 That would be such a fun dance social where everybody made a 437 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:26,040 chocolate chip cookie and you know you voted be here for that. 438 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,600 That would be a good night. OK, so then the next one very 439 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:32,640 much so related to individualism. 440 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,800 There's also the thought of I'm the only one. 441 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:40,440 And this is, you know if. If it's going to. 442 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,640 Get done, then I have to be the one to do it, so yes. 443 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:46,400 Like thought process. And I, as someone who's done a 444 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:51,320 lot of organizing, I feel like I used to get stuck in this a lot 445 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:56,040 of I would do all this planning and organizing and then I would 446 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,880 get stuck in the ability to delegate it out. 447 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,720 So then before I knew it, I was like doing everything right. 448 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,560 And that's something that I've had some like incredible 449 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:09,720 debriefs with people that I've artistically collaborated with, 450 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,360 including you, Kate, like when we did some big art shows where 451 00:25:12,360 --> 00:25:15,520 I asked for feedback for being a leader and people are like, 452 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:17,880 you're doing too much, right? It did. 453 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,600 I did my best to like really take that to heart and feel that 454 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,880 like good leaders are also followers. 455 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,400 Like a good leader is actually. Supporting. 456 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:31,440 The group as a whole as opposed to being the one that does 457 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:32,840 everything. I love what you did. 458 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:36,680 There and that is so true. I mean, I think we as, of 459 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,800 course, this is the ocean we swim in. 460 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:41,920 Like you said, it is really, really common. 461 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:45,280 It has been in my past too, for, for being the person who just 462 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,440 kind of like quietly takes everything on. 463 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:49,800 And that looks different for each of us, right. 464 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:51,400 Like for you, it maybe is organizing. 465 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,480 For me, it's just like I, you know, kind of like hide my 466 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:59,400 feelings away or whatever. But when we do that, we not only 467 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,960 burn ourselves out and isolate ourselves, but we take it away 468 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,440 from the rest of the community. Yeah, And I think that that 469 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:11,320 happens in dance a lot, where organizers want things to be 470 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,320 really perfect. And so they kind of take 471 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:17,520 everything on, but they may not even know what the temperature 472 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:19,840 of the community is like. What does the community actually 473 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,080 want? It's very common in the dance 474 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,960 world for like one person to kind of be frantically running 475 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:25,960 the show, right? And it. 476 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:30,840 Like really, not only is that incredibly hard on whoever is 477 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,440 taking all of that on, it also like greatly degrades the work 478 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,000 as a whole, Yes. When you. 479 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:41,400 Include more people in creating any type of community or 480 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,920 organization that there is less control, there is more 481 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,840 collaboration and it just like spreads out what the the power 482 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:52,560 is. So it might seem less perfect to 483 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:56,200 one person, but it's actually just something that's serving a 484 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:58,320 lot more people. Totally. 485 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:03,280 And that kind of like that idea is what, you know, leads to the 486 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,800 antidote of this like trust in the community. 487 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:11,920 Maybe have a committee or like a way like a set way that you 488 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,120 delegate or like transition of power. 489 00:27:15,120 --> 00:27:19,480 Like if somebody's like maybe somebody runs the social for two 490 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,200 months and then a switch happens right where there's. 491 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:26,000 Rotating facilitators and just like more than one person, 492 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,800 always being the organizer, always being the decision maker 493 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:33,080 that like more people can come in and make this community 494 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,480 happen. I think that the fact that trust 495 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,040 is the main antidote to this really talks to the fact that 496 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,120 this is nervous system dysregulation. 497 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:44,840 Because that's like being untrustworthy is one of the 498 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,240 first things that we feel when we're moving from a place of 499 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,320 trauma. And the the true antidote to 500 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,800 this is to really like heal that and begin trusting the people 501 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,760 around you totally. Yeah, and asking for help, yeah. 502 00:27:59,120 --> 00:28:01,600 Which is. Adjacent to building trust, 503 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:02,800 right? Yes. 504 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,240 Love that. OK, let's move on. 505 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,280 Yes. So this one is progress is 506 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:13,760 bigger more and the definition is quantity over quality. 507 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,840 Basically like this idea that the more you turn out the better 508 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:19,560 it's going to be. Yeah. 509 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,280 Just like the more money you make, the more people in the 510 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:27,680 door, the bigger the event, the flasher it is, the more nights 511 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:32,880 that it that you have, you know, people dancing in your studio or 512 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:37,120 the more moves that you have, all of those things that the 513 00:28:37,120 --> 00:28:42,200 more flashier, more noticeable is what's better. 514 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:43,160 Yeah. And we see. 515 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,080 This in the dance world in like a very kind of basic way of 516 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:52,800 like, and again, this is so much driven by the need to keep your 517 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,000 business open if that's what you do for a living. 518 00:28:55,280 --> 00:29:00,080 So that is a, a very sticky wicket, but getting more dancers 519 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,840 in the door, regardless of like what it is that you're actually 520 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:10,720 providing as a community and as a dance space and, and just, you 521 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:15,240 know, learning more, getting better as fast as you can. 522 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,560 How many nights of dance did you we, Oh, I danced 6 nights as we 523 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:20,120 go. I danced 7 nights this week. 524 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:24,000 You know that kind of like competition of like who's the 525 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,040 most? Dedicated to their dance who 526 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:31,520 slept like ignoring their own safety and life the most to be 527 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,280 the most obsessed dance person right? 528 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:36,720 Which I have definitely played that game for sure. 529 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:38,240 For years I did that. Yeah. 530 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:43,160 I'm laughing because I did it. Yeah. 531 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:47,440 I mean, I think this one is, is so related to all of them, 532 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,320 really. But it is the kind of the idea 533 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:55,480 that if I can just show up and look good and be producing the 534 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:59,840 most, I'll be accepted in this, in this kind of space, Right? 535 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,320 Yeah. And the antidote is letting 536 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:07,240 things be simple, letting the basics and the fundamentals be 537 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,920 enough. That's one antidote anyways. 538 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:11,960 Yeah. It's definitely having the 539 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:16,680 quality over the quantity. Like instead of an experience 540 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:21,600 that a lot of people who that a lot of dancers have is that they 541 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,720 want more of a repertoire. They want more flanchy, fancy 542 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,200 moves, they want more shapes. And they're doing that before 543 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,680 they're basic is really to the point where it can sustain that. 544 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,480 And sometimes in our dance careers, we just kind of need to 545 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:37,200 put on the brakes and really, you know, go back to the simpler 546 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:40,200 stuff that's not as flashy and like really make sure that the 547 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,920 foundations are there before we move on to like bigger, flashier 548 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,120 stuff. And that goes on to in, you 549 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:51,240 know, when you're making your dance community, are you getting 550 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,480 enough beginners in the door to sustain the higher fancier 551 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,360 classes that that you want? Or you just like rushing 552 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:02,280 students through so that you, you know, can make things be as 553 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,560 like flashy as possible to continue this like never ending 554 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,240 cycle of getting more people in the door, right? 555 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:10,840 Right. And I feel like that focus on 556 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:16,000 the quality is it's so easily missed because dancing is hard. 557 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,440 Yeah. Dancing is actually kind of a a 558 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,600 lifelong journey. Like if you talk to a tango 559 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:27,440 dancer, they're not prime until they're like in their 80s, once 560 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,520 they've like learned all the crazy stuff. 561 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:33,280 And then they're actually like deeply attuning to their partner 562 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,080 and just kind of like moving in unison. 563 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,920 That's like the kind of that's the goal. 564 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,320 And I think that that happens with a lot of dancers is they 565 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,040 that stick with it anyways. They go through that phase of 566 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:48,520 like, you know, that hungry ghost phase of like, I need more 567 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,440 moves, I need more material. And then after they've been with 568 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:55,640 it for a while, they're like, I just want to have a crossbody 569 00:31:55,640 --> 00:32:01,440 lead For Salsa's example, that feels like 1,000,000 bucks that 570 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:05,560 feels connected and safe and musical. 571 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:09,040 And and so I think that that's really hard to. 572 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,880 To encourage. Students to focus on I I feel 573 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,800 like I want to share just my own personal dance experience. 574 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:23,040 I am I teach for queer Chata and the dancers that come to queer 575 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:26,360 chata are really there for so many reasons, but a lot of them 576 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,960 are there for just feeling part of community. 577 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:34,400 And some of them are wanting to connect to the music too, of 578 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,840 course, but I really haven't had the same kind of drive for 579 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,960 material and and fixation on moves with that group that I've 580 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,240 had in other non queer classes. And I just find that really, 581 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:48,800 really fascinating. It's been so much more about 582 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:51,600 connecting and grooving and having fun. 583 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:54,800 And that's been primarily student driven. 584 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,280 I mean, that's how I teach too. But it's they that's what they 585 00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:59,320 want. I think it's amazing. 586 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:04,960 Yeah. And I feel like that focus, I 587 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:07,920 feel like that focus would benefit everyone, of course, not 588 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:12,600 just dancers that are queer. All right, so let's move into 589 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:16,880 objectivity. Objectivity is the idea people 590 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:21,000 can be objective outside of emotion, invalidating people who 591 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,000 show emotion. Some demographic of people are 592 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,760 considered emotional, for instance, and some aren't. 593 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,760 This one's. Really interesting of especially 594 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:34,160 in such a patriarchal place as the dance world because like 595 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:40,360 women are seen as emotional and men aren't so men are seen as 596 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:42,880 correct and men are seen as wrong. 597 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,720 And like, thank God this is getting more and more outdated, 598 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:49,880 but it's also, like, pretty foundational to our culture. 599 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:54,040 So like, this still comes through quite often. 600 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:55,440 Yeah. The. 601 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,840 Objectivity is like this kind of, you know, it's black and 602 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:04,720 white thinking it's, it's a set idea before actually having the 603 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:08,320 experience, right? And I mean, we say that it's 604 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:12,440 changing, but I was just at a social a couple weeks ago and I 605 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:18,719 saw a man have a really specific kind of hissy fit after being 606 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,480 told no. Yeah, he, like, pulled his hand 607 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,880 away and, like, rolled his eyes and stormed off, Right. 608 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:26,560 And. That's like not really viewed as 609 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:28,400 like an emotional. Like he didn't think that he was 610 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,880 being emotional. He was thinking that whatever 611 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:32,480 happened was that what was wrong. 612 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,040 And he was like having a totally normal response to that. 613 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:35,840 Right. Yeah. 614 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:37,400 So. And I don't mean to laugh at 615 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,080 people that have a hard time hearing no, but it is something 616 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:44,239 that's very real in the dance world that they could examine. 617 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,040 So yeah, I feel like in the dance world, I mean, there's so 618 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:52,159 many examples of this, but organizers and communities 619 00:34:52,199 --> 00:34:55,520 feeling like their stance is objective when they haven't 620 00:34:55,520 --> 00:35:00,920 actually taken a temperature or like understood what's going on 621 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:03,760 in the community itself. I just want to also point out 622 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,760 it's not just women that are seen as more emotional. 623 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,200 It's marginalized people in general, right? 624 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:11,040 And that's. Out to absolutely like an 625 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:15,840 intersectional yes thing too. Like we look at that black women 626 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,440 as being angry, right? And it's like, well, and not 627 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:23,160 only is that like a monolithic stereotype, there's also a lot 628 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:26,560 of reasons for black women to be angry in our society, right? 629 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:30,280 So we're not looking at the reasons why they might be having 630 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,240 emotion because we're looking at everyone around them as being 631 00:35:33,240 --> 00:35:37,120 emotionless, right? That's that objectivity of like, 632 00:35:37,720 --> 00:35:39,880 Oh, well, I'm all cool, calm and collected. 633 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:44,560 And that's our social norm and not taking the full picture into 634 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,360 into view. And we just see that all all 635 00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,000 over the place. We can see it in like how we 636 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,280 judge queer people for being quote UN quote dramatic or the 637 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,560 way that they dress or, you know, there's so much of that. 638 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:02,280 But I feel like, you know, the antidote is taking people's 639 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:07,560 worldview into account, taking people's experiential awareness 640 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,600 and stance as valid. Yeah, I. 641 00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:14,600 Think it's also recognizing that we have our own emotion, 642 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,640 especially if you are a white person, you need to know that 643 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:22,000 you have all of the stuff that is this baggage that's going to 644 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,840 make you see the world in like these specific black and white 645 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:26,920 ways. And you need to take extra steps 646 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:31,800 to combat that. Like if you're in, if there's a 647 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:37,080 situation where someone is trying to move through a code of 648 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,600 conduct violation and you have one person that's, and that 649 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:44,080 that's a person of color and another person that is like a 650 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:48,280 white cisgendered man. And you're thinking that the 651 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,920 person of color, you know, brought up a concern and they 652 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:53,800 sound really emotional about it, right? 653 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:56,560 And you're like, we're starting to move to discount whatever 654 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,440 they're going to say that that might be a moment to like hit 655 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:03,040 the brakes, right? And take a deep breath and try 656 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,680 to really understand like everything and that's going on 657 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,720 and, and, and why that person might be showing emotions and 658 00:37:08,720 --> 00:37:11,440 why you might think that that might be a reason that they can 659 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,160 be discredited totally. And I think that's where in real 660 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:18,480 time, we can use Tema Akun's list to like pause and really 661 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,840 check in on ourselves. And in the dance world, this is 662 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,240 just like you gave a perfect example. 663 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:29,080 But being, you know, comfortable with things that are unfamiliar 664 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:34,640 is going to be a huge way to move through this element is 665 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:38,360 like, OK, that other person is having this experience. 666 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:40,040 I'm having this judgement about it. 667 00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:45,960 Let's see if I can question that and be more in their shoes than 668 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:47,400 mine. I think a beautiful. 669 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,880 Way that we could see this trying to be supported in the 670 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:55,040 dance world more is also having more mediators, more people that 671 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:59,760 can be support in the dance community when there are 672 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:03,000 ruptures or when there is abuse or when there's code of conduct 673 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,400 violations that aren't like the organizers themselves. 674 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,160 Because the organizers and themselves are going to make 675 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:12,120 their business decisions and that's not the best for the 676 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:13,440 community. That's not that. 677 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,560 Rarely does that bring restorative justice to the 678 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:23,240 people that are in conflict and someone that can bring in that 679 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:27,360 empathy to all sides instead of having the like business, you 680 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,920 know, owner blinders on totally, I think could be really 681 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:32,320 supportive. I love that. 682 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:34,160 Idea. Can you imagine if there was 683 00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:39,240 just like a impartial mediator at every social right that was 684 00:38:39,240 --> 00:38:40,760 trained? Yes. 685 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:45,200 But to just like support everybody and and make sure that 686 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,000 it's like a really healthy caring environment for everyone 687 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:49,880 that walks in the door. Amazing. 688 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:51,840 That'd be incredible. Let's have that. 689 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:54,360 Happen in 2026. Absolutely. 690 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,880 Yes. 2026 goals. Let's go, all right, let's bring 691 00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,880 it on home. Last one is right to comfort, 692 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,520 and this is defined as the belief that those in power have 693 00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:07,520 a right to emotional and psychological comfort. 694 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:12,480 And I feel like, you know, all the rest of the ones come to 695 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:16,400 this one that the people that are in power have the right to 696 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:20,000 be comfortable and anything that you do that disrupts that is 697 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:21,840 what is wrong. Yes, say. 698 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:27,480 More like I honestly, I when I read this list the first time, 699 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:32,760 this one I think was like a quiet one in the background. 700 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,360 But as I've read it over and over again, this is one that's 701 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:38,640 like really jumping forward for me as well. 702 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:44,120 And I feel like it's because as a white person, my right to 703 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:48,280 comfort keeps me so unable, if I don't question it, to see other 704 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:53,040 things that it it makes it totally impossible to see the 705 00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:55,560 water we're swimming in. Absolutely. 706 00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:57,680 And. So if you jump outside of it, or 707 00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:02,000 even slowly step outside of your own comfort zone, then you start 708 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:05,280 to see stuff more and more and more and it becomes more clear. 709 00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:09,080 But without that. It's so, so hard for so many 710 00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:10,880 people to do it. We're we as? 711 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:14,160 Human beings like, want to find comfort totally like what we 712 00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:20,160 want, and that's rarely where the good stuff is, is within 713 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:23,880 that comfort and the. People who are in. 714 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:29,040 Power tend to be the ones that demand comfort, and it's 715 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:32,560 normally at the expense of others being uncomfortable. 716 00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:39,080 And that where this really becomes disruptive white 717 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:45,800 supremacist behavior is when others aren't allowed to disrupt 718 00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:49,200 your right to comfort like. If. 719 00:40:49,720 --> 00:40:54,880 There's a queer person out in the world dressed like a, you 720 00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:58,880 know, a way like a leather daddy walking down the street. 721 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:05,000 And if some church lady clutches her pearls, like, that's fine, 722 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:07,240 actually, right? Like that's great. 723 00:41:07,240 --> 00:41:10,480 Let let her clutch her pearls. Look, she got more world 724 00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:12,480 experience. No one was actually hurt here. 725 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,360 She was just made to be uncomfortable for a moment. 726 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:19,960 And that's actually really helps you grow totally. 727 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:22,360 Totally. I mean, I do think that that's 728 00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,160 kind of a big thing we're experiencing in the last 1020 729 00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:30,320 thirty years is coming slowly out the other side of all the 730 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,120 discomfort of people being who they really are. 731 00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:38,960 And what will my hope is that it will start to come full circle 732 00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:41,360 where everyone starts to feel like they can really be who they 733 00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:45,200 are. But that takes a certain amount 734 00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:48,320 of people stepping out of their comfort zone and and some people 735 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:50,680 don't feel safe enough to Yeah, to be. 736 00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:53,760 Able to get that first step out of it because to be able to be a 737 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,920 white person that has grown up in this white supremacist world, 738 00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:00,720 to take a moment to like look at that and to look at the. 739 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:04,000 The how much you? Benefit from this extremely 740 00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:08,560 harmful system on a foundational and daily basis. 741 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:12,120 It's really uncomfortable. It really sucks to look that in 742 00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:14,680 the face and to like realize that you've done things 743 00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:18,880 personally, like I've had a lot of of experiences where in it's 744 00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:22,160 deeply uncomfortable and it's also like. 745 00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:25,240 It's it is. Something that you continue to 746 00:42:25,240 --> 00:42:27,560 deal with, but it gets easier. Right. 747 00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:31,280 You kind of move through shame and guilt if you're willing to 748 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:38,080 right, and step into a more open awareness of what's going on. 749 00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:40,680 And it allows you to connect more deeply as well. 750 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:43,400 But it is it is really uncomfortable. 751 00:42:44,720 --> 00:42:50,080 And I feel like in the dance world, we see this like so much 752 00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:52,720 with. How much? 753 00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:56,320 Or how little we want to know about these dances. 754 00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:58,600 Yeah. Like we want to. 755 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:02,680 Enjoy the nights out. We want to enjoy the DJ, we want 756 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,800 to enjoy connecting with a person, maybe even of a 757 00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:08,520 different gender or the same gender or whatever. 758 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:12,320 But do we want to actually learn about where these dances come 759 00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:14,480 from? Who the founders are of the 760 00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:16,720 music, the the roots and history? 761 00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:19,280 Or just like acknowledging. You as a white person and 762 00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:21,560 stepping into a ballroom, you would not be doing the activity 763 00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:24,640 you're doing without slavery. Exactly if that didn't exist. 764 00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:28,280 Like you are benefiting it from from slavery foundationally in 765 00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:29,840 this moment. The second you step into a 766 00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:31,920 ballroom, I set that one up. Lou knocked it down. 767 00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:35,040 That's exactly, that's exactly what I was saying. 768 00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,440 It is. It is this kind of white 769 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:41,320 elephant. No, no, like word play intended 770 00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:45,960 in every single ballroom. But if you don't pull the veil 771 00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:49,800 back, you will not have to see that as a white person, right? 772 00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:53,920 Because it is a really fun, you know, evening. 773 00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:56,200 I mean, I think I've said this before, but a lot of salsa 774 00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:58,680 songs, they just sound so celebratory and happy. 775 00:43:59,240 --> 00:44:01,720 But if you actually understand what the lyrics are talking 776 00:44:01,720 --> 00:44:05,720 about, it's, it can be sometimes a really dark subject matter. 777 00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:07,840 Yeah. Absolutely well, and I think 778 00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:10,480 that this again is one of the most amazing places that like 779 00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:14,840 the dance world can gift the rest of our society is that we 780 00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:17,840 can start to step outside of those comfort zones. 781 00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:22,800 Like what a beautiful gateway to understanding the liberation of 782 00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:25,600 oppressed people of color. If you're a salsa dancer and you 783 00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:27,840 start listening to the lyrics, totally. 784 00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:29,360 And. Start like looking into the 785 00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:34,440 history and you know, if if you love of Lindy Hop and you look 786 00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:36,720 in Billie Holiday and then you're like, wait a second, she 787 00:44:36,720 --> 00:44:39,200 died chained to a hospital bed by the CIA. 788 00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:42,160 Like, wait, what? And then and then you go down 789 00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:44,400 these rabbit holes and the the rabbit holes make you 790 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,040 uncomfortable, but they also make you a well, much more 791 00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:48,840 informed person. Totally. 792 00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,280 And I feel like, you know, talking about the appropriation 793 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:55,960 that happens in the dance world is a big part of it. 794 00:44:55,960 --> 00:45:00,120 And I think it, it can't just be something that we listen to. 795 00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:02,760 I think it needs to be a conversation that we start to 796 00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:05,960 yeah, that we that we participate in it and sometimes 797 00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:09,600 bring it up because I think that's how we slow down and 798 00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,920 really get into like that. That. 799 00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:16,840 Discomfort to get to the other side of it where we can actually 800 00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:18,480 make change. Yeah, I think that that's. 801 00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:22,480 One of the gifts that the dance teachers can give the world is 802 00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:26,160 starting to like open these doors and present these rabbit 803 00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:29,840 holes to people and encourage them to continually step out of 804 00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,640 their comfort zone. And not even in just in 805 00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:35,040 learning, learning about the roots in history and where these 806 00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:37,640 dances come from, but also somatically getting into their 807 00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:40,160 body and actually truly getting into the groove. 808 00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:42,520 That's super uncomfortable for a. 809 00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:43,480 Lot. Of people. 810 00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:47,040 And it's like somatically such an important place to, like, 811 00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:52,480 come to being truly embodied and being able to be resilient, yes. 812 00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:56,800 Absolutely. And I feel like that embodiment 813 00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:01,840 is such a big part of what it is that people are trying to 814 00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:06,400 connect with when they dance, and it sometimes gets missed. 815 00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:10,480 By. Trying to like hyper fixate on 816 00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:14,160 just one element of the dance. And that was our last 817 00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:17,920 characteristic of white supremacy from Tema Okun's list. 818 00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:20,600 And we're of course going to link everything in the pod 819 00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:23,200 description, so do go check that out, yeah. 820 00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:27,360 And I hope that hearing this list and relating it to the 821 00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:30,400 dance world has been helpful for you. 822 00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:33,360 I hope that there's some other, you know, white folks like us 823 00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:37,640 that are coming along on this like, decolonizing journey and 824 00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:42,280 doing it through the dance world and that this list can serve you 825 00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:44,720 as well as it served me and that. 826 00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,680 But you know, Kate, you this list has been a little more 827 00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:51,400 newer to you. Do you want to talk a little bit 828 00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:54,640 about, you know, just how having this list in your life, though 829 00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:57,720 just the last few months has changed you a little bit? 830 00:46:57,880 --> 00:46:58,600 Yeah. And it's. 831 00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:02,280 Not just it's the list, but it's also just doing this podcast in 832 00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:07,680 general because at the beginning of are recording, we did an 833 00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:10,480 episode called We Are White and that's problematic. 834 00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:15,040 And that episode really brought up so much discomfort for me 835 00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:19,160 about my own whiteness, my experience as a person who has 836 00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:21,800 Welsh, Scottish and Irish heritage and not really being 837 00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:25,680 connected to them. And so like from that and that 838 00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:29,880 really transformed me and has continued this inner dialogue of 839 00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:34,600 of reconnecting really and being willing to go into discomfort. 840 00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:39,520 And then when we started doing planning for this episode, when 841 00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:44,080 I read this list, I was just kind of knocked back at how. 842 00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:48,800 How? Prevalent These characteristics 843 00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:53,720 are in my body, in all of my relationships, and in every 844 00:47:53,720 --> 00:47:55,800 experience I have out in the world. 845 00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:58,840 But if you don't as a white person, pull it. 846 00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:02,320 Pull that veil back, like I said, you really don't have to 847 00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:05,120 see it, right? You really don't have to. 848 00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:07,880 And So what I've been, my experience has just been like 849 00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,400 over and over again, just choosing to pull that veil back 850 00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:13,680 when I can remember to. And it is getting, it is getting 851 00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:16,720 more, it's normalized in my body. 852 00:48:16,720 --> 00:48:19,240 So I really thank you, Lou for sharing it with me. 853 00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:21,920 That's beautiful. I love that for you and that's 854 00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:24,080 very much so been my experience with this list. 855 00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:28,200 I've been living with it for the last five years, and it just 856 00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:31,440 keeps getting more and more enlightening and also 857 00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:34,400 validating. And I'm so glad to have shared 858 00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:36,520 it with you and now shared it with everyone here. 859 00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:38,200 And it's actually the day that we're recording. 860 00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:41,200 This is January 1st. So a happy new year. 861 00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:45,920 And I hope that everyone takes all this information into 2026 862 00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:51,480 and that it's a really good year and that a lot less white 863 00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:54,160 supremacy is in our dance worlds moving forward. 864 00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:55,960 Yeah, right. And the whole world. 865 00:48:56,040 --> 00:49:00,000 Moving forward, we can just. What we can do is just keep 866 00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:01,800 talking about it. And I think that really is the 867 00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:06,200 kind of like general antidote to all this is like being open. 868 00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:11,040 So on that note, let's do our our say bye and get out of here. 869 00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:13,920 Leave us a review on your favorite podcasting platform if 870 00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:15,920 you are so inclined to and all love. 871 00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:20,040 Letters, suggestion and feedback can go to degenerdance@gmail.com 872 00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:22,560 and. Thank you so much for tuning in. 873 00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:23,600 We'll see you next time. Bye. 874 00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:30,600 Yeah, happy. New Year, goodbye.