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None. 
Before we go any further, just 

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quickly give me your bio and 
keep it exciting. 

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Don't make it boring. 
All right, I'll try. 

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Now. 
I, I've been awake for a long 

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time and I started my career as 
a software engineer, ended up 

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working for big tech in New York
City, and then it all went down,

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right? 
COVID-19 84, I quit my cushy 

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job. 
I started working with activist 

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movements, and I helped build 
the largest decentralized mutual

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aid network ever, just called 
Freedom Cells. 

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And during that time, people 
were activated. 

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So I saw all the good stuff that
they were doing, getting real 

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money, eating natural, that kind
of thing. 

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But they were just being naive 
when it came to their technology

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that's walking around with them 
all the time. 

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So I had to educate them, and 
that's been my mission for the 

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past five years, educating 
people on privacy, open source 

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tech that they can use to opt 
out of surveillance. 

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I've got a blog on Sub Stack and
I'm the founder and CEO of a 

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privacy solutions company. 
Knowing what you know now, 

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Hakeem, would you go back to 
2019? 

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I, I think that it was very 
important for, you know, for it 

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to happen the way it did because
it got a lot of people 

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activated. 
And, and just for the record, I 

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was awake to vaccines like way 
before that time. 

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But when it happened, I was 
like, all right, this is 

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happening now. 
Like they might kick in my door 

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and, and get me now. 
So I think that a lot of people 

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were feeling that and they were 
making moves, which ended up 

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being a good thing. 
You know, they had a plan, they 

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were executing, which is great. 
And then, you know, it took a 

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few years and it kind of died 
down and now we're back to where

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we once were. 
So I wouldn't go back to the way

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things were, 'cause now, you 
know, we, we all know where this

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is going. 
The Agenda 2030. 

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It's not just like some nebulous
out there kind of go like, you 

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know, the friend who always says
they're going to go back to 

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college or get their career in 
AI. 

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No, it's like happening and 
they're going to push until they

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reach that goal. 
So I think people need to 

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realize that. 
And you know what my work has 

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always been about as solutions. 
We, we kind of all know the 

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problems at this point. 
What are we going to do about it

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and how can we push our lives 
forward to completely opt out 

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from what they're putting out? 
I have found over the last few 

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years that people are addicted 
to doom scrolling. 

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They are consumers of fear. 
You know they'll send stuff 

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around on Telegram and WhatsApp 
and just moan, never actually do

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anything. 
Yeah, man. 

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And I think you know it best 
because you talk about how you 

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talk about a lot of 
controversial stuff and yeah, 

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people always have a problem 
with everything. 

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They just kind of want to share 
how much they disagree with you,

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and that's totally cool. 
But we can just sit around here 

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and disagree all day or we can 
find a commonality and do 

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something about it. 
And so, yeah, I've been reading 

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your sub stack and I, I think 
you get it. 

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There's a nuance and everything.
We don't have to agree on 

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everything, but let's find what 
we do agree on. 

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So tell me about solutions. 
What are you solving? 

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Yeah. 
So one of the major things that 

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that I've discovered when it, 
when it comes to something like 

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digital ID, it's it's great that
we can philosophically oppose it

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and be like, hey, I'm never 
going to comply to that. 

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But if you're using a phone or a
laptop that you don't have any 

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control over, I've, I've been 
calling them pre hacked devices 

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because because they are, you 
know, you know, these big tech 

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companies like Microsoft, Apple,
Google, they could push software

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to your device. 
They can install apps without 

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you knowing, without your 
consent, and you can't even 

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remove them. 
Like they have the power to do 

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these things. 
So it's great that we oppose 

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digital ID, but it's also going 
to require our personal 

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infrastructure to resist in a 
meaningful way. 

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Otherwise, here's what's going 
to happen. 

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And here's what we saw during 
the pandemic as well is that no 

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one was downloading contact 
tracing apps that just no one 

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was downloading and no one 
wanted to do it. 

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Very small number of people. 
And then in some states, like in

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Massachusetts, Google and the 
Department of Public Health 

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there, they just decided to 
forcibly install the apps on 

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people's phones and turn on 
Bluetooth and turn on the health

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reporting. 
So that just happened overnight,

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right? 
So I mean, that's kind of my 

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mission with solutions is to 
make sure people have technology

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that they can rely on. 
And, and this goes back to when 

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this first happened, where was 
the 1st place we looked for 

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people with common sense, people
who are thinking like this. 

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We looked online, that's where 
we found each other. 

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We realized there's this massive
movement on the planet. 

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For me too, as a software 
engineer, that's what I 

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realized. 
Hey, this is the really cool 

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stuff when we bring people 
together under a unified cause. 

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So these like these tools, so 
our company above phone, we have

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phones and laptops, but it's not
like I advocate like you should 

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be a techie and spend all your 
time on a laptop or phone. 

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Now, these are just tools that 
we use to build the the world, 

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the world that we want in in 
real life. 

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And the technology can help us 
organize things and stuff like 

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that, but it's not, it's not the
master. 

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We are the masters. 
This is a good point. 

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I mean I for example just on a 
day-to-day basis I've attempted 

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playing with Linux or Linux. 
I don't know how you pronounce 

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it Linux or Linux. 
I don't know what the correct 

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way to say to how do you? 
Say it works. 

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There's a big debate. 
Oh, OK. 

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So all right, well, whatever. 
I attempted it for about two 

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years and I gave up because it's
just too complicated. 

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I spent too much of my time 
fiddling and trying to get 

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things to work. 
I installed Mint, Ubuntu, 

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Fedora, and at the end of the 
day I just want something that 

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works and I think this is what 
the average person wants. 

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Also, it's just something that's
easy to use. 

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Yeah, you're not wrong about 
that. 

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So I've been using blanks for 
close to a decade and and it 

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does require a little bit of 
tinkering, or at least it used 

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to. 
And so I mean when I first 

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started talking about this, this
was the feedback I got from 

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people. 
Hey, I want to install this on 

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my own, but I have so many 
questions and I personally 

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couldn't keep up with it. 
So I mean, we started a company 

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to try and make these things 
easier. 

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We wrote our own Linux operating
system based off of something 

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called Arch Linux. 
And the goal I gave my team was,

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hey, let's make something where 
you don't need to mess with 

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anything. 
You don't need to open the 

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terminal, you don't need to 
tinker. 

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And we, we think we've, we've 
accomplished that. 

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And so you do need to make these
things easier. 

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But also there's Linux just lags
a little bit because it's a 

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bunch of volunteers trying to 
support thousands of different 

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types of devices. 
They don't have, you know, the 

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manpower these big tech 
companies do. 

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But what we found is eventually 
things do get to a point where 

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they're usable and nice and 
easy. 

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So I mean, I encourage people to
to still try. 

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What were the main hand ups you 
were finding? 

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It was just things weren't 
working or. 

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Well, it was a number of years 
ago, so maybe things are better 

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now. 
But yeah, I mean, it was just 

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compatibility and and drivers 
and all that, you know, all that

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usual kind of stuff. 
And then I really didn't want to

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support Microsoft, so then I 
just resorted to to Apple. 

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Yeah, Apple does a really good 
job letting you believe that 

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they're private. 
And you know, they're like, the 

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FBI asked for this and we're 
like, no way, FBI. 

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No, look at that, guys. 
It's unfortunately that's the 

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privacy marketing era we live 
in. 

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And so, but what they won't tell
you about is how their phones 

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are sending out the addresses to
the different devices in your 

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house when they're connected on 
Wi-Fi. 

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They won't tell you about how 
they're collecting a database of

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over 2 billion Wi-Fi access 
points in the world. 

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So they, you know, this is how 
our today's location systems 

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work. 
You know, they use Wi-Fi access 

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points. 
So it was really crazy. 

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There's a study out of Maryland 
and they were tracking through 

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Apple system, which they left 
open for this, how Wi-Fi, Wi-Fi 

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routers were moving across the 
world. 

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So they saw Gaza being decimated
in in real time with the Wi-Fi 

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routers like disappearing off 
the map. 

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They saw people fleeing from 
Ukraine for forced conscription 

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with Wi-Fi routers. 
So it's like, it's really crazy.

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You don't think about the data 
that has to, you know, be there 

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in the back end for these 
systems to work. 

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And yeah, I mean, Apple, I would
not consider anything you do on 

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Apple device to be private, 
partially because it's 

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completely opaque, right? 
It's not transparent. 

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Nothing is open source. 
Everything is locked down. 

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You couldn't install an open 
source app that wasn't approved 

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by Apple if you even wanted to. 
So they don't care about 

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people's freedom and they don't 
care about privacy either. 

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A friend of mine has got one of 
those Google phones, a Pixel or 

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whatever it's called, and then 
he he installed some other 

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operating system on it. 
He was probably installing 

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something like Graphene OS or 
divest OS, potentially graphene,

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right? 
And and that's what I recommend.

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That's what our company sells 
above phone. 

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We sell phone to the Graphene OS
on them. 

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Of course, if people want it, 
they could stall on their own, 

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but you know, you'll find that 
there's takes time to get into 

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it and to learn. 
But the reason we we recommend 

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it is because it is most the 
most secure and private phone 

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you can buy out there. 
Sure, give me one second. 

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My phone is. 
What you've been talking about a

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lot now is digital ID. 
This is integral actually. 

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I mean, it's completely 
connected to the issue of 

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privacy. 
Yeah, it, it is connected to 

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privacy and then it goes a 
little bit past privacy to 

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actually being about control, 
right, Where people have 

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accepted that our phones are 
listening to us. 

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00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:08,480
But So what, you know, the worst
they can do is show us ads. 

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Well, digital ID is the other 
half of that. 

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It's the control grid and as you
saw in my report, you know, I 

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00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:20,600
tried to cover being very 
extensive with the research and 

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looking at six continents 
everywhere in the world. 

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This is happening everywhere and
over 90% of countries. 

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00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:31,960
So it's, you know, the parallels
what COVID-19 84 was like. 

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I accept there's nowhere to run 
to like in the past. 

200
00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:39,080
A lot of people from Europe 
moved to Mexico in the past to 

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00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:40,920
escape the vaccine mandates 
here. 

202
00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:42,920
I don't know if we have that 
same option. 

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00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:45,880
Every country or government is 
planning to do something like 

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00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:51,680
this, and with it comes putting 
your basic social services 

205
00:11:51,680 --> 00:11:56,120
behind a digital ID wall. 
You really don't have a right to

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00:11:56,120 --> 00:12:00,240
exist unless you let the 
government create a biometric ID

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00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:03,200
on your behalf, which happens 
when you take your legal 

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00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,360
identity and you combine it with
your biometrics and you give it 

209
00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:08,520
in a formal setting. 
So that's when it happens. 

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00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:09,680
That's when you're on their 
system. 

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00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:13,040
I've got your report in front of
me and I recommend. 

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00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:15,480
I don't know if it's public, but
if it is public I recommend 

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00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:17,440
people read it. 
So you say here. 

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00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,720
Our research shows digital ID 
wallets or equivalents will be 

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00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:25,000
available to 90% of countries 
within two years, with full 

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00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:30,160
rollout expected in five. 
Within a decade, digital IDs 

217
00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:33,800
will be largely sorry. 
Old school IDs will be largely 

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00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:37,800
obsolete, forcing reliance on 
regional controllable digital 

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00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,000
credentials for everything from 
travel to trade. 

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00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:44,160
That is pretty scary. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

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00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:47,000
And, and the report is public, 
it's free, it's available for 

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00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:50,680
everyone, can go to 
abovephone.com/digital. 

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00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:54,400
And, and yeah, you know, I want 
people to put, I want to be 

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00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,320
wrong about this. 
I want people to find different 

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00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:00,040
places in the world I might have
missed and say, hey, this 

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00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:03,360
country is not doing digital ID.
But from what I've found, 

227
00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:08,360
there's one country next to the 
Amazon rainforest, Suriname, 

228
00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:11,360
which is supposed to be a 
lawless country anyways, right? 

229
00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:12,920
It's just kind of out in the 
middle of nowhere. 

230
00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:16,720
There's 15 countries in Africa 
not doing digital ID. 

231
00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:18,200
So hey there. 
That's something. 

232
00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:22,920
But it's my country is your 
country is as well. 

233
00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:24,640
Yes. 
The president, you know, has 

234
00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:27,840
said that that's going to be a 
main priority for them this 

235
00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:31,760
year. 
Yeah, exactly. 

236
00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:33,240
Right. 
So this is this is happening 

237
00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:35,560
everywhere. 
And and so there there's a 

238
00:13:35,560 --> 00:13:38,560
progression to get there though 
that I'll. 

239
00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:41,720
I think that's really important 
is that it relies on our 

240
00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:44,680
consent. 
You have to be willing to go 

241
00:13:44,680 --> 00:13:48,520
into the office or the setting 
or wherever and provide your 

242
00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:50,440
legal identity with your 
biometric identity. 

243
00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:54,520
Before that, before enough 
people are on it, they can't 

244
00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:57,520
actually start shutting things 
down because it would hurt the 

245
00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:00,040
economy and you know, they need 
enough people to adopt. 

246
00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,360
So the next two years are really
important because we'll start to

247
00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:07,280
see these pushes for adoptions. 
The countries that are working 

248
00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,400
on digital IDs apps will have 
those out and available for 

249
00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:12,720
people. 
So you'll get to see that in the

250
00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:15,080
next two years. 
And we really need to resist. 

251
00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:19,120
We need to have our own economic
systems before that point. 

252
00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:21,720
So I like to give people a 
timeline so they just can 

253
00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:24,640
prepare and plan ahead. 
Yeah. 

254
00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:27,040
I mean, something very 
interesting that you've pointed 

255
00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:30,480
out in your report is the 
voluntary facade that you call 

256
00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:33,720
it, but you say that that is 
just a trick, it's a bait and 

257
00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:37,320
switch. 
It's definitely a beta switch 

258
00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:41,480
and you know the example in the 
report is Indias Adhar system 

259
00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:45,520
which India is the largest. 
It has the largest number of 

260
00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:51,240
people on digital ID like was it
like 1.6 billion people in India

261
00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:54,280
and 96% of them are using this 
system. 

262
00:14:54,680 --> 00:15:00,200
So the India Supreme Court ruled
that you could not be punished 

263
00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:02,160
for not being on this digital ID
system. 

264
00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:07,200
But that didn't stop the banks 
from demanding your Adhar ID. 

265
00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:10,320
That didn't stop the seller 
companies from threatening to 

266
00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:13,200
shut off the phone service if 
they didn't give them their 

267
00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:16,200
Adhar ID. 
That didn't stop landlords for 

268
00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:20,160
using the Adhar ID as a way to 
screen applicants, right. 

269
00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:23,640
So it's really interesting, like
India maybe, maybe it's because 

270
00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:25,480
of their caste system or 
something, but they went the 

271
00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:29,320
full mile to the point where 
even regular people were 

272
00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,680
imposing it on each other as 
something that had to happen. 

273
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:36,800
And I think that the world as we
know it is over when we reached 

274
00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:40,160
that point. 
Because as digital ID grows in 

275
00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:44,680
all to all these different 
places, now that data is being 

276
00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:48,880
analyzed, it makes it possible 
for us to have programmable 

277
00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:53,240
money, which India also has, you
know, the largest use of 

278
00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:56,040
programmable payments, which is 
the second aspect of digital 

279
00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:59,520
public infrastructure. 
And all of these things that 

280
00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:02,440
that you kind of see in the UN 
messaging, in the World Economic

281
00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:06,080
Forum, they become possible. 
If you're using too much heat at

282
00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:07,640
your house, they can just turn 
it off, right? 

283
00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:10,080
But they need that legal 
identity tied to everything 

284
00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:11,720
you're doing. 
So that's where we're going with

285
00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:15,120
this. 
My word for this is mandating it

286
00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:17,680
by proxy. 
And it's kind of, you know, 

287
00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:22,520
they're just two faces of the 
same, same thing because it's 

288
00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:25,960
not like these, these government
institutions, they have a lot of

289
00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:29,000
influence over these private 
institutions as well, 

290
00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:34,440
regulations. 
And so these private 

291
00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,640
institutions, especially the 
bigger ones, will have to follow

292
00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:39,480
eventually. 
It's going to start with the 

293
00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,120
banks first because wouldn't you
know it, the banks are the 

294
00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,440
people who want us to all be on 
digital ID. 

295
00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:46,800
So I point out different places 
around the world. 

296
00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:50,960
It's the World Bank funding 
Africa to make sure people, you 

297
00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,200
know, the undocumented populace 
in Africa are getting their IDs.

298
00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:57,640
So of course, the banks in our 
real world will be the first to 

299
00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:02,280
impose it and then it may follow
with things like insurance 

300
00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:06,720
companies and travel. 
Travel is a big freedom that 

301
00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:11,240
Jerm, you and I both know how 
important it is to be able to 

302
00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:14,160
travel just so we can experience
different cultures. 

303
00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:16,640
And now that's also something 
that's going to be threatened. 

304
00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,880
That's also, I think one of the 
first projects South Africa is 

305
00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:23,079
working on, unfortunately. 
So yeah, you'll, you'll see. 

306
00:17:23,079 --> 00:17:24,880
You'll see it kind of drip in in
this order. 

307
00:17:25,079 --> 00:17:27,560
I don't think I've asked, and I 
don't know of anybody who's 

308
00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:31,200
asked this, but who created 
Digital identity? 

309
00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:33,520
And then you have a photograph 
of Kim Cameron. 

310
00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:38,560
Yeah, Kim Cameron. 
He's he's, he's the OG of 

311
00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:42,520
digital identity. 
His was the identity architect 

312
00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,520
at Microsoft. 
He had a company that Microsoft 

313
00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:48,000
bought. 
But basically what he did was he

314
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,320
created an interoperable 
identification system to 

315
00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,280
corporate enterprise IT 
environment. 

316
00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:57,320
So it's like, all right, you're 
logging on to your company, you 

317
00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:00,880
have access to these printers 
and these networks and these 

318
00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:05,040
hard drives over here. 
So he built that, and along the 

319
00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:09,520
way, he wrote this paper called 
The Laws of Identity in 2004. 

320
00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:16,640
This would be the messaging and 
philosophy for what we now know 

321
00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:18,280
as digital ID. 
So think about that. 

322
00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:20,360
It's almost been 20 years, 
right? 

323
00:18:20,360 --> 00:18:25,760
This is 20 years in the making. 
And what he said is, hey, the 

324
00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:28,320
people deserve a better way to 
identify themselves. 

325
00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:32,840
He was worried about the things 
people having way too many 

326
00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:35,880
passwords and getting attacked 
by cyber criminals. 

327
00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:40,480
So he said hey, one ID and let's
have it be interoperable with 

328
00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:42,680
everything. 
And also it should be people's 

329
00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:46,280
right to decide how much 
information they want to share 

330
00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:49,280
with either party. 
Well, it sounds very noble. 

331
00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:54,160
And he was also on the board of 
ID 2020. 

332
00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:58,080
So I, I, I don't know how noble 
it actually was, but he had some

333
00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:00,600
things that sounded good in his 
original paper. 

334
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:05,160
But yeah, Fast forward 20 years 
and these are the, it's the same

335
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:07,640
type of messaging. 
If you read his original paper 

336
00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:10,320
and what you see government 
saying today, they say, hey, 

337
00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,160
it's going to be, you're right. 
You get to pick how much 

338
00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:14,680
information do you want to 
share? 

339
00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:16,440
And it's never done without your
consent. 

340
00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:19,240
It's the same thing. 
But the problem is, is when you 

341
00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:23,120
have incompetent people working 
on these systems, which I say 

342
00:19:23,120 --> 00:19:27,600
they're largely incompetent, I 
can show you examples, is that 

343
00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:32,600
on the back end there? 
This information can be shared, 

344
00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:35,400
It can be aggregated. 
There can even be a secret layer

345
00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:39,280
behind digital ID itself. 
So I don't think he knew where 

346
00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:42,560
it was going. 
But unfortunately, he died after

347
00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:47,240
the Last Post on his blog where 
he was criticizing response, the

348
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,480
COVID response, like the 
lockdowns and stuff. 

349
00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,920
That was the last blog post he 
made on identityblog.org and 

350
00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:55,920
then he passed away, so we don't
know ID. 

351
00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,400
Yeah, you mentioned ID 2020, 
like just about nobody knows 

352
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:01,080
what that is. 
I think it's been around what, 

353
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:06,280
since 2016 or 2017 thereabouts? 
And it's a Microsoft or a Bill 

354
00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:10,480
Gates initiative, isn't it? 
Yeah, it's one of the, you know,

355
00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:12,960
it was the one of the original 
founding groups to come 

356
00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:18,080
together, big tech government 
NGOs and start to work on these 

357
00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:20,120
identity standards that we now 
know today. 

358
00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:24,080
So there are two major tech 
specs in digital ID. 

359
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:30,360
There's the WWW verified 
credentials specification, and 

360
00:20:30,360 --> 00:20:35,400
there is also the ISO 
specification or standard. 

361
00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,360
And for most people, this won't 
be too important, but just think

362
00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:42,160
about it as the rules. 
These digital ID systems need to

363
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:43,520
be interoperable with each 
other. 

364
00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:47,320
So ID 2020 was instrumental in 
creating those first systems. 

365
00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:51,000
And now that they've tested it 
internationally, like you've got

366
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,920
to think about the impact is 
this is not just you sign up in 

367
00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,200
your own country. 
Now you have to worry about 

368
00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:58,040
South Africa, now you have to 
worry about China. 

369
00:20:58,360 --> 00:21:00,880
No, these systems are built to 
be interoperable. 

370
00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,520
That's the whole point. 
So they'll follow you wherever 

371
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:05,480
you are. 
That's that's where we're going 

372
00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:10,960
with this. 
So what is Digital ID? 

373
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,240
Yeah. 
So I try to, you know, I try to 

374
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:18,320
make a definition for it because
it's hard to hard to create it. 

375
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:21,520
But I've looked at Russia and 
China to see how they do their 

376
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:22,960
systems and I've looked at the 
EU. 

377
00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:25,760
And so there's two 
characteristics I see over and 

378
00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:29,640
over is the verified credential 
part of it, which is just 

379
00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:35,560
saying, hey, this digital 
identity document that you've 

380
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:40,160
shared with me, can I prove that
this was signed by the 

381
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:44,160
government of Russia or signed 
by Google or Apple or whoever 

382
00:21:44,360 --> 00:21:46,480
signed it, Can I trust the 
source of it? 

383
00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:51,520
So that's the verified part. 
And that it's also used in a 

384
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,280
digital setting. 
So that might be through the web

385
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:57,920
browser, but it could also be an
app on the phone, could also be 

386
00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:01,320
in person using near field 
communication or Bluetooth, 

387
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:03,080
right? 
There's different ways to send 

388
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:04,560
it. 
So that's the digital part. 

389
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:08,120
The other part that's important 
is the interoperability. 

390
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:12,120
And for some countries like 
Australia, they don't want their

391
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:14,760
for at least for right now, 
their digital ICD system won't 

392
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:18,680
work outside of the country. 
But inside the country it is 

393
00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,480
already being used for most 
government services talking 

394
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:27,600
about your driver's licenses or 
your, you know, how you pay at 

395
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:29,760
the tax office. 
And this is going to quickly 

396
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:33,400
expand to social media. 
It's going to be available to 

397
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:38,280
other businesses to validate the
identity of other people using a

398
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,680
verification service. 
So it becomes interoperable and 

399
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:43,400
that's the other piece. 
It could be interoperable 

400
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,680
domestically or internationally.
So those are the two factors in 

401
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,600
digital ID. 
The question that I've been 

402
00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:52,120
asked a couple times over the 
last couple years is, oh, but 

403
00:22:52,120 --> 00:22:54,000
it's just your ID in digital 
form. 

404
00:22:55,400 --> 00:23:00,160
Yeah, it is more than that. 
And so you can attach any sort 

405
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:02,800
of information you want onto a 
digital ID. 

406
00:23:03,120 --> 00:23:06,920
You could have diplomas attached
to your digital ID. 

407
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,400
And I predict within the next 
five years, you're going to get 

408
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,720
to start seeing digital diplomas
as well. 

409
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,160
And if anyone's had to ever 
prove where they studied, you 

410
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:18,440
know, it's a bit of a process 
now. 

411
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:20,360
You're just going to have this 
document given to you by the 

412
00:23:20,360 --> 00:23:22,200
university. 
That's just one example. 

413
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:24,880
You can tie any sort of 
information to your digital 

414
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,880
identity, where you live, What 
Car you have. 

415
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,960
Voting, voting. 
Yeah, exactly whether you're 

416
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,320
eligible to vote, whether you 
have kids or they're adopted, 

417
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,080
you know, you can kind of 
integrate them with which with 

418
00:23:38,120 --> 00:23:41,600
one another. 
And so eventually it will become

419
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,760
a thing that can have a 
historical log of everything you

420
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:48,880
did in your life. 
Although I will say that you so 

421
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,960
with with those types of things 
that might be attached to 

422
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:53,840
because it's, it's kind of like 
a credential. 

423
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,920
So it'll be minimal. 
You probably will have different

424
00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:00,360
credentials for things. 
And then also every time you use

425
00:24:00,360 --> 00:24:03,200
it, let's say at the grocery 
store, there will be kind of an 

426
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,560
interaction mechanism with your 
digital ID and what you 

427
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,160
purchased that day. 
And there will probably be like 

428
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,800
a subsystem, maybe a payment 
system or a credit source system

429
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,080
like you were saying. 
That's like, hey, here's your 

430
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,880
legal identity. 
Let's let's let's reference it 

431
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,600
with this historical record. 
It may not live exactly on the 

432
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:27,280
digital ID, but that's what this
system enables is a is, yeah. 

433
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,120
I mean, being able to track you 
across everything that you do 

434
00:24:30,120 --> 00:24:31,840
because it's all tied with your 
legal identity. 

435
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:34,800
OK, but let me play devil's 
advocate. 

436
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,720
Why is it a bad thing? 
Yeah. 

437
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,520
And, and, you know, that's a 
good question to ask because at 

438
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,320
the at the surface, you know, if
you listen to what the 

439
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:49,120
politicians are saying, less 
paperwork, less lines at these 

440
00:24:49,120 --> 00:24:51,480
offices, it makes it easier to 
pay taxes, right? 

441
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:56,600
These are things everyone loves.
Sarcastic of course, but when 

442
00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:00,800
you look at it didn't start to 
scare me until I looked at 

443
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:05,520
Russia and also China. 
And I do. 

444
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,400
I just preface this with saying 
I don't think Russia, China bad 

445
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,160
and America good. 
I don't believe that. 

446
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,480
I think it's it's happening 
everywhere and it depends. 

447
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:17,400
What flavor of tyranny do you 
want? 

448
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,120
You'll get it. 
Maybe in some countries you'll 

449
00:25:20,120 --> 00:25:22,560
be able to eat and have a better
life than others. 

450
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:26,440
It's totally possible. 
But when I looked at Russia and 

451
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,360
China, I was kind of surprised 
more with Russia. 

452
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:34,040
Their digital ID system is 
already integrated into the CCTV

453
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,280
cameras. 
So right now they've got this 

454
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:40,400
war in Ukraine. 
They have a lottery for the 

455
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:44,120
draft to go to the war. 
Worst lottery ever. 

456
00:25:44,120 --> 00:25:45,800
So you can get randomly 
selected. 

457
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:47,560
This happens through the digital
ID. 

458
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:49,560
You get a notification from the 
government. 

459
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,280
You have 20 days to report in to
your field office. 

460
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,640
What happens after 20 days? 
They pull you off the street. 

461
00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:58,120
How do they know you're on the 
street? 

462
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:02,360
Because of the CCTV cameras in 
the Moscow metro, soon to be on 

463
00:26:02,360 --> 00:26:05,040
the buses. 
They can recognize your face and

464
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,800
tie it with your legal identity 
and send someone to come get 

465
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:09,880
you. 
So a lot of people over the past

466
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:12,080
few years have been complaining 
about how Ukraine does this. 

467
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,560
They do it the old fashioned way
where they just kidnap brand new

468
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,160
people off the street. 
Russia's doing it the dystopian 

469
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:23,400
way with China. 
Chinas digital ID system is 

470
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:28,320
actually like technically it's 
new according to this definition

471
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,360
I have. 
But they have these huge big 

472
00:26:31,360 --> 00:26:34,480
tech companies which are their 
own form of digital ID. 

473
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:40,480
And So what we saw during the 
during the lockdowns is that 

474
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,280
these health passes that they 
had, which used some of the same

475
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,800
technologies, digital ID could 
be turned off to restrict 

476
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:49,160
travel. 
We saw that with some of the 

477
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:53,480
bank protests. 
There's also this aspect of the 

478
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:57,360
social credit system in China, 
which I don't, I'm not an expert

479
00:26:57,360 --> 00:27:01,880
on it, but what I researched was
the public dishonorable Citizens

480
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,000
website, which is crazy. 
It's public. 

481
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,520
You can go see who's on it, at 
least the records that are being

482
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,640
added to it. 
And if you end up on this list, 

483
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:13,200
no one will want to work with 
you. 

484
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,000
You can't buy plane tickets. 
You actually have to end up 

485
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,640
going in person. 
So it it, it becomes a way, if 

486
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,120
this is the data exchange piece 
of digital public infrastructure

487
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:25,400
where all the information is 
shared. 

488
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:30,520
If you fuck up in one aspect of 
life, you can get sued, you can 

489
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,800
have a divorce, you can forget 
to pay taxes, something happens.

490
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,720
It impacts all the other areas 
of your life. 

491
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:41,160
Also, if someone doesn't like 
you, someone who's powerful 

492
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,320
enough to influence the system, 
which is not that hard to do, it

493
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:47,720
could, you know, it could cut 
you off from the rest of the 

494
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,760
world. 
So as you might know, I was in 

495
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:56,360
China recently and I certainly 
have many reasons to, to, to 

496
00:27:56,360 --> 00:27:59,360
criticize it and, and many 
reasons not to criticize it. 

497
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,240
I, I, I try and see the nuance, 
you know, the complexity. 

498
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,240
And I'm certainly not pro China 
and I'm certainly not anti 

499
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:07,720
China. 
I mean, I, why would I be? 

500
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:15,640
I'm South African but I did 
notice no cash anyway like I I 

501
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:21,200
couldn't purchase anything 
without Alipay or WeChat and 

502
00:28:21,360 --> 00:28:26,320
everything by the looks of it is
moving into WeChat and Alipay 

503
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,080
now. 
That is a form of digital ID, 

504
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,640
isn't it? 
Yeah. 

505
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,840
And I'm very excited to hear to 
read your report on this. 

506
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:38,320
But yeah, from what I've seen, 
there is no point in having cash

507
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,520
if you have cash in China. 
They'll be like, what are you 

508
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:42,920
doing? 
Just use one of these two apps 

509
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:45,960
and you could say that in their 
own way. 

510
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,280
Alipay and WeChat or form a 
digital ID. 

511
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:50,400
Why is that? 
Because you sign in with 

512
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,000
biometrics. 
It's used for different things 

513
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,240
on the app, like authorizations.
It's interoperable because 

514
00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:00,480
there's this little app economy 
where third party developers can

515
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,560
integrate it with taxis, you 
know, anything they want. 

516
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,480
So yeah, you could say it's a 
digital ID system and if it's 

517
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,840
own and what people should 
realize as well, like these two 

518
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,880
apps together, it's staggering 
number of people use. 

519
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:15,760
It's like, it's like everyone, 
right? 

520
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,760
So imagine 1.8 billion people 
using these two same systems. 

521
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:23,040
Now what happened recently was 
the Chinese government decided 

522
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,840
to say, all right, here's let's 
let's make it official. 

523
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:31,360
They came up with the cyberspace
ID, and so now the cyberspace ID

524
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,680
is another metric. 
You enroll with your biometrics 

525
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:39,480
and you can use it to sign in to
Alipay or WeChat or 80 other 

526
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:41,440
apps, right? 
So it's this final layer. 

527
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:43,720
They didn't really need it in 
the first place. 

528
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:44,960
They could have just gone 
through one of those two 

529
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,520
companies, but they decided, 
hey, this final layer, which if 

530
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:50,520
that's cut off, it'll impact 
everything. 

531
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:56,000
And of course, they've had for 
years since 2015, Like you have 

532
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,000
to use your legal identity when 
signing up to things online. 

533
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:00,520
So it hasn't been that far away 
from them. 

534
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:05,040
On my phone, for example, to 
access my banking app, it uses 

535
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,080
biometrics. 
I don't see that as a bad thing 

536
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,840
because if somebody steals my 
phone then they can't access my 

537
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,760
my bank account. 
Yeah, it's, it's, you know, you 

538
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,480
could, you could argue that it's
more secure because it's your 

539
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:17,600
biometrics. 
But let's move. 

540
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,440
You got to remember, like with 
cybersecurity, it's a cat and 

541
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:22,600
mouse game. 
Both sides are moving forward at

542
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:24,880
the same time. 
What happens if your biometrics 

543
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,480
get stolen? 
And how hard is it to really do 

544
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,400
that in the 1st place? 
How what happens if you lose 

545
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:32,880
your digital ID? 
At that point, people can 

546
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,560
impersonate you and there are 
safeguards written into the 

547
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,160
specifications. 
But governments don't have to 

548
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:40,800
adhere to the specification, 
right? 

549
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,320
It's the guideline. 
It's not like a blueprint or 

550
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,160
anything. 
So they can build whatever they 

551
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:49,280
want. 
And what we've seen is that 

552
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,560
these digital ID systems do get 
hacked. 

553
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,480
It happened in Adhar, India's 
Adhar. 

554
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,280
It happened with Estonia's 
system. 

555
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:03,320
And so if your biometrics get 
stolen, there's not really a way

556
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:05,520
you can you can escape that, 
right? 

557
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:10,840
Someone has your biometrics. 
And in Singapore, it was one 

558
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:14,280
such case where their Sing Pass 
app was hacked and they had 

559
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,800
about 3000 different identities 
that were shared on the dark 

560
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,560
web. 
And so attackers could log in 

561
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:22,520
kind of the same way. 
They were able to use the 

562
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,920
biometrics and use it for things
like opening bank accounts or 

563
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,880
starting companies or frauds or 
something, stuff like that. 

564
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,240
And and that's the real, that's 
the real danger here on a 

565
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,800
personal level is biometrics are
something that you can't get 

566
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,800
back very easily. 
So could you then make a counter

567
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,920
argument and suggest that well, 
it's a bit better if the 

568
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:49,480
biometrics are decentralized? 
Yeah, and, and you, you could, 

569
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,040
and there's a lot that can be 
said here. 

570
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,200
Kim Cameron actually talked 
about this. 

571
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,680
He was hinting towards this in 
his paper of something called a 

572
00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:01,480
Sovereign Self Identity and when
he presented it to the UN 

573
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,640
committee they hated the name. 
They hated the name Sovereign, 

574
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,760
but the idea was you are 
issuing. 

575
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:09,200
Your own? 
I wonder why? 

576
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:11,640
Sorry. 
Go on. 

577
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:14,800
Yeah, right. 
This this self sovereign 

578
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,560
identity where you issue it 
yourself and then you you get 

579
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:20,880
to, you know, you get to 
basically dictate it and show it

580
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,000
to others and be in control of 
that information. 

581
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,240
That's not what we have with 
these digital ID systems, but 

582
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,800
you could make the case that 
there's nothing farther more 

583
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:34,760
than biometrics and that that it
could be more secure. 

584
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:37,080
My problem is not with that 
aspect. 

585
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:42,360
It's the aspect with that mostly
governments are responsible for 

586
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:46,120
its implementation. 
And that I don't trust the 

587
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:49,800
powers behind them to not abuse 
their powers, as we've seen, 

588
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:51,680
we've seen over and over and 
over and over. 

589
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:57,560
And so I don't trust the systems
that are out there to make our 

590
00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:02,400
lives much, much harder. 
And it's also a system like once

591
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,360
you start to use everything with
biometrics, you can't go back. 

592
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:09,960
You know, if the rates change or
the sales tax change is on your 

593
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,280
purchases, there's no way to be 
like, Nope, I'm not doing this. 

594
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,680
I'm opting out. 
Sorry, you're already, you're 

595
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:20,880
already in the system for, for 
people who don't want to be in 

596
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,560
the system, you'll never be in 
the system, which is a good 

597
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:25,760
thing. 
But for people who have like 

598
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:29,080
invested their wealth, time, 
attention, money, resources, 

599
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,040
it's going to be a big shock. 
It's going to be a really big 

600
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:36,880
shock to them. 
So look, I think potentially 

601
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,840
there's a way for biometrics to 
be used safely, but what's 

602
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,920
happening right now is not the 
way and it's really dangerous. 

603
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:47,360
I mean, Catherine Orson Fitz 
often argues that technology is 

604
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:52,080
a tool and we should discern. 
Yeah, and that's, I agree with 

605
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:53,480
that. 
Like, you know, like with 

606
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:55,240
everything, there's there's 
nuance. 

607
00:33:55,600 --> 00:34:01,240
And so, yeah, I think when when 
people began to see the QR codes

608
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,880
instead of the menus at the 
restaurant, they freaked out. 

609
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,880
They're like, get this evil QR 
code away from me. 

610
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:08,960
It's like, no, it's, it's, it's 
a QR code. 

611
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:10,480
It's all it. 
Just opens a website. 

612
00:34:11,639 --> 00:34:12,880
It just opens a website. 
Yeah. 

613
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:14,639
And I think you had a post about
that, too. 

614
00:34:15,679 --> 00:34:19,000
But people were like, actually 
scared, you know, So it was 

615
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,639
interesting. 
But these these are just tools 

616
00:34:23,159 --> 00:34:27,040
and you just have to be aware of
of how they're built and who has

617
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,600
access to them and whether they 
have the capability to do this 

618
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:34,840
data exchange piece. 
I keep bringing it up because 

619
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,639
it's a really important part of 
digital public infrastructure, 

620
00:34:37,639 --> 00:34:40,639
right? 
This is a idea from the United 

621
00:34:40,639 --> 00:34:44,679
Nations Development Program, and
it wants to combine three 

622
00:34:44,679 --> 00:34:47,040
pieces, of which digital ID is 
the first. 

623
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:52,080
So you need your legal biometric
identity, then you could have 

624
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,520
your unified payment system, 
which means payments tied to 

625
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,680
your digital identity. 
The last piece is data exchange.

626
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,920
And and that's the thing here, I
don't trust the government with 

627
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:07,720
all of its access to data, to 
not make my life harder if I 

628
00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:10,320
start to put everything on their
data exchange. 

629
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:12,920
But do you trust private 
companies more? 

630
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:18,200
No, because they've been Co 
opted by the government too. 

631
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:21,760
And, and I mean, you know, you 
see that there's actually, you 

632
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:25,400
know, you could argue that 
they're, they're even worse than

633
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,280
the government in many ways. 
Maybe look at Facebook. 

634
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,040
Look at Facebook for example, 
and how they try to manipulate 

635
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,280
the elections in I think 2016. 
Remember that whole thing? 

636
00:35:35,240 --> 00:35:38,320
Yes, yes, yeah. 
And, and how they think they're 

637
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:42,800
above the law. 
They're yeah, it's, it's crazy 

638
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,440
amount of the power these 
companies have because there's 

639
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:47,480
billions of people using their 
products. 

640
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:51,640
And so it's like, I call this 
like the network blast where you

641
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,480
have billions of people using 
your products and you can change

642
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:56,920
how they use it all at one time,
right. 

643
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,920
Rolling out a software update. 
So Google and Apple work 

644
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,440
together on contact tracing for 
the first time. 

645
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:08,480
These two fierce competitors put
their differences aside for the 

646
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:10,080
betterment of humanity, right? 
No. 

647
00:36:11,240 --> 00:36:16,360
So, so they rolled this out to 
to, you know, billions of 

648
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:18,880
people. 
Similarly with digital payments,

649
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:21,360
we didn't used to have digital 
payments got rolled out around 

650
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:23,000
the same time from these two 
companies. 

651
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:28,640
So we really have to be careful.
They have their own agenda and 

652
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,600
really they, they, they serve 
the interests of the government.

653
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:33,520
They they kind of need each 
other as public private 

654
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:35,880
partnership. 
I love that you've dropped in 

655
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:39,920
the UNA few times because right 
now what is driving me up the 

656
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:44,480
wall is the G20 is about to 
happen here in South Africa as 

657
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:49,760
you might know, and part of the 
agenda is discussing a 

658
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:55,440
multipolar carbon economy which 
directly links to digital ID and

659
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:59,960
social credit scoring. 
But why I'm getting so annoyed 

660
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,920
by the whole thing is that my 
fellow S Africans are so 

661
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:08,760
intensely focused on race and 
race issues that they're 

662
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,000
completely forgetting because, 
because Trump, Trump announced 

663
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,840
that he's going to boycott the, 
the, the summit. 

664
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,520
And then I think Argentina's 
president did the same, which is

665
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:20,320
great. 
I think it should be boycotted, 

666
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:25,000
but they're focusing on racial 
conflict rather than the G20 

667
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,680
itself and and what it's 
attempting to do. 

668
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:35,960
Yeah, and and so it's a clown 
world, right? 

669
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:40,520
And, and the problem is this 
Hegelian dialect, like I think 

670
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:44,560
people's people let their 
emotions be used against them 

671
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:49,680
way too easily, way too easily. 
And not saying that these aren't

672
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:53,240
impactful issues, but, you know,
these problems are allowed to 

673
00:37:53,240 --> 00:37:55,440
happen. 
You know, and I've, I've 

674
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:57,440
travelled the world a little bit
this past year. 

675
00:37:57,600 --> 00:37:59,880
Immigration is a thing that's 
happening everywhere. 

676
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,360
I was talking with some people 
from Iceland the other week 

677
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:06,480
there, they said that a fifth of
their population is now 

678
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,000
immigrants from other countries,
happening in the UK, happening 

679
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,200
in the Europe. 
It's being weaponized. 

680
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:15,920
And so that people like Trump 
and Malay can come along and 

681
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,640
say, this is such a problem, 
we're now going to need 

682
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:22,720
biometrics at the border. 
So the problem reaction solution

683
00:38:22,720 --> 00:38:24,800
that that we all know about is 
happening. 

684
00:38:25,240 --> 00:38:30,160
And it's important to keep sight
of the the real issues on all 

685
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:32,200
this, right? 
Which I think digital ID is 

686
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,680
definitely one of them. 
I think the immigration issue 

687
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:40,320
is, is really important as well,
But it's not something that you 

688
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:42,800
can like pitch the government do
something about this. 

689
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,520
And then they're like, OK, we're
going to deport a a few people. 

690
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:50,120
No, it's like if these people 
are here and if you can't get 

691
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:52,640
rid with millions of people, 
what's the next best thing to 

692
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:55,520
educate, to educate and 
integrate them on the ways of 

693
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:57,480
life there so there can be 
harmony. 

694
00:38:57,680 --> 00:38:59,480
That's what I personally 
believe. 

695
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,720
Being an immigrant to the United
States, it's like I've kind of 

696
00:39:02,720 --> 00:39:06,880
seen and in the United States, 
it's like kind of it's kind of 

697
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,120
backwards because you go into 
every kitchen, like you go into 

698
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,000
a restaurant in their kitchen. 
Guess who's working there? 

699
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:16,240
Undocumented illegals. 
So you can't have it both ways 

700
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:19,960
you want. 
And then you got is it, is it 

701
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:24,760
Keir Starmer who who said that 
if the UK implements digital ID,

702
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:26,960
it will help with the 
immigration issue? 

703
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:30,560
Yeah, I don't know what he's 
smoking. 

704
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:35,000
He's going to too many of those 
Boris Johnson parties. 

705
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:36,600
He. 
Yeah. 

706
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:42,040
So it's like, how's the thing on
your phone going to stop boats 

707
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:43,400
of people from coming into your 
country? 

708
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,160
It makes no, no sense at all. 
And yeah. 

709
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:51,120
And so like Keir Starmer is a 
great example of someone who 

710
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:53,600
just went too far. 
He went way too hard. 

711
00:39:54,720 --> 00:39:57,160
And and people are rightfully 
protesting. 

712
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,200
Maybe it was actually a measured
move because we know that they 

713
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:02,560
kind of like to measure the 
pushback against these things. 

714
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,880
So they're like, all right, hey,
Keir, say the most ridiculous 

715
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:08,240
thing, which is actually 
truthful because I do think 

716
00:40:08,240 --> 00:40:12,880
that's on timeline with 2030. 
Going back to the UN sustainable

717
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:17,240
development goal target 69, 
everyone will have a legal 

718
00:40:17,240 --> 00:40:20,040
identity by 20-30. 
They want to reach that goal. 

719
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:24,080
So Keir Stormer saying that is 
if it's right on the timeline 

720
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:26,120
and it should freak everyone 
out. 

721
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:30,480
But I, I think I've spoken a bit
enough about this problem to say

722
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:33,880
that right now the most 
important thing that you could 

723
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:37,960
be doing is going out and Pete 
person and saying, hey, this 

724
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:44,160
digital ID system is coming. 
They might have me scan, scan an

725
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:47,960
ID or want to get an ID to 
interact with you even. 

726
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:51,600
And if it's a farmer, if it's 
someone in your local community,

727
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,680
you just have to make a promise 
to each other with a handshake, 

728
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:58,880
not a key exchange, that 
whatever happens, we're not 

729
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,280
going to let this digital ID 
system come up between US. 

730
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:05,840
And if you do that for 200 of 
your local community members, 

731
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,640
you get all your needs met. 
You actually have data that's 

732
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:10,800
more valuable than any digital 
ID system. 

733
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:15,800
I love this example that you use
in your report of how digital ID

734
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:18,360
can work just on a real in a 
real world example. 

735
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:21,360
So you I'm going to read it. 
Fred wants to go to his local 

736
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:25,640
pub using a digital ID. 
Fred signs up for digital ID. 

737
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:29,680
His national ID system creates A
credential that contains his 

738
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:32,680
name, birth date, gender, and a 
photo. 

739
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:37,440
The issuing system then signs 
the credential with the private 

740
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:39,880
key. 
The credential is sent directly 

741
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:43,120
to Fred's digital identity 
wallet on his mobile device, 

742
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:46,360
where it is saved. 
Fred goes to the pub he's asked 

743
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:49,160
for his digital ID. 
He scans his phone which 

744
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:53,200
receives a request from the bar 
requesting the relevant 

745
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,200
credential which is his age, 
which is then shared. 

746
00:41:56,560 --> 00:42:00,360
The Bars Digital ID Terminal 
verifies their credentials 

747
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:03,120
signature with the public key of
the National ID system. 

748
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:07,000
Yeah, it'll happen instantly. 
Yeah, it's these, these systems 

749
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:08,760
are meant to be fast. 
You know, they're already, 

750
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:12,200
they've been testing this out at
the airports and in many places.

751
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:15,680
You know, Estonia, Denmark, 
they've already got this system 

752
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:19,920
implemented in in those shops. 
So they've been working on it. 

753
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:22,200
It will be fast. 
It'll will be convenient. 

754
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:25,400
You're going to feel like the 
idiot again at the airport line 

755
00:42:25,720 --> 00:42:28,000
who doesn't go through the 
facial recognition line. 

756
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:31,160
You know, I'm I'm always on the 
line that has to wait. 

757
00:42:31,720 --> 00:42:33,320
And that OPS out of it through 
photo. 

758
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:36,400
But they will use inconveniences
to get to you. 

759
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:40,520
But yeah, so, so, so the the 
interesting thing about that 

760
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:42,920
example, and here's the things 
that people don't think about. 

761
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,760
Once you share your digital ID 
with the bar, what's them to 

762
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,760
what's to stop them from just 
using your identity? 

763
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:54,240
There's no safeguards right now.
This is all like new, new 

764
00:42:54,240 --> 00:42:59,160
frontier technology and you have
to trust that the people who 

765
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:03,440
build these systems will care 
about your security and privacy 

766
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,560
and they don't. 
And as someone who runs a 

767
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:10,040
security and privacy company, 
I'd know how hard it is. 

768
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:11,680
It's like it takes a lot of 
effort. 

769
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,200
It's most of your effort trying 
to make things as private as 

770
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:16,400
possible. 
So I, I really don't think 

771
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:18,960
they'll do that. 
They'll go for ease of use to 

772
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:21,840
make it more adoptable by 
people, which makes sense. 

773
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,560
But on the back end, you can 
have your identity stolen very, 

774
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:31,160
very easily. 
And and yeah, so, so I think 

775
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:33,760
that, you know, in the next few 
years, we'll begin to see more 

776
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:36,800
of this happening in the banks. 
You'll get to see this happening

777
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:39,400
on more and more websites here 
in the US. 

778
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:43,200
There have been several stays 
states like Utah and Texas, 

779
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:45,640
which have passed age 
verification laws. 

780
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:49,040
Those that's happening. 
We know that Australia already 

781
00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:52,520
has these laws. 
Digital IDs are just a natural 

782
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:55,440
next step to access some parts 
of the Internet. 

783
00:43:56,400 --> 00:44:01,120
But all this talk of credentials
and private key and public key 

784
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:04,680
sounds eerily close to Bitcoin. 
What do you make of 

785
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:10,080
cryptocurrency? 
Yeah, it's a cosmic joke, isn't 

786
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,320
it? 
That cryptography can both be 

787
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:21,120
potentially our saviour and our 
our worst demon Bitcoin, The the

788
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:24,800
origins of Bitcoin. 
I'm, I'm OK with not knowing 

789
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:31,640
because there are things like, 
you know, the, yeah, the, the 

790
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:39,240
like the Shah 256 and which is 
the, which is the crypto suite 

791
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:44,880
for Bitcoin and that being 
created by, I forget what it is,

792
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:48,880
like NIST, National Institute 
for Standards and Technology, 

793
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:54,080
which is, you know, closely 
related to the CIA or, sorry, 

794
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:56,160
the NSA. 
So you could say, all right, 

795
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:58,640
hey, there's some weird 
government tags there. 

796
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,160
You could say that that is 
suspicious. 

797
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:04,320
And we don't know who provided 
Bitcoin. 

798
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:08,480
At the same time, I think that 
when these programs get rolled 

799
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:12,360
out to people, they don't know 
what is possibly going to 

800
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:14,920
happen. 
And what they discovered was 

801
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:20,760
wow, people want people want a 
freeway to exchange and contract

802
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:23,320
outside of the banks. 
And so it did start a movement. 

803
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:26,880
Now, unfortunately you from I 
have come across the work of 

804
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:30,040
Whitney Webb and Mark Goodwin. 
They've done a really good job 

805
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:33,040
talking about how Bitcoin has 
been Co opted. 

806
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:36,960
It's been, it's been neutered 
really to prevent it from being 

807
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:39,640
the people's money. 
And now people are just like 

808
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:42,920
hold and they're just holding 
their Bitcoin in the hopes that 

809
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:44,080
one day it'll be worth 
something. 

810
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:45,760
That's not how that they're 
going to, that's not how they're

811
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:47,560
going to get rich. 
And I'll just warn people with 

812
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:50,120
this. 
What's the point of Bitcoin if 

813
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:53,880
you there's, if there's no one 
you can name in your real life 

814
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,440
that would accept Bitcoin? 
It's useless. 

815
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,960
It's useless in that sense. 
The only way it'll be useful is 

816
00:45:59,960 --> 00:46:03,400
if you scanned your face, your 
biometrics, go through an 

817
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:06,440
exchange and pay taxes on it. 
That's the only way it'll be 

818
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:09,920
useful. 
It is pretty useless, I can't do

819
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:12,480
anything with it. 
Yeah, there, there are some 

820
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:16,280
people I see that point and I 
think that I think that it 

821
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:18,600
requires a lot of effort to, to 
make it useful. 

822
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:21,440
It literally requires, and I've 
done this in different places 

823
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:23,920
and there's people doing this in
different countries where 

824
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:27,480
there's like initiatives to try 
and get their local vendors to 

825
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:29,320
use Bitcoin. 
It's a bit of setup, right? 

826
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:32,280
3030 minutes to an hour talking 
with people, getting them to 

827
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:35,480
accept it. 
I think it has the potential as 

828
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,560
an alternative monetary system. 
But is it there right now? 

829
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:41,960
No, I think it's unfocused. 
At the same time, there's 

830
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:46,280
there's, there's private crypto 
currencies that I believe in a 

831
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:50,960
bit more like Monero. 
And there are peer-to-peer 

832
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:54,080
markets which you can do all 
sorts of interesting stuff, not 

833
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:57,120
just, I'm not talking about the 
darknet markets, but you can 

834
00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:00,440
exchange dollars, you can pay 
each other in different payment 

835
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,520
apps and that can be facilitated
through crypto. 

836
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:07,600
So it really has its use online.
And I really hope the next few 

837
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:11,440
years is digital ID system gets 
rolled out, we start to use more

838
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:13,640
of it in person. 
Now I don't think this should be

839
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:16,760
the only way to do things, but 
it is really, really useful for 

840
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:18,480
remote payments. 
I don't have to drive to 

841
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:20,840
someone, give them a several 
coin or whatever. 

842
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:24,120
It has its use in the grand 
scheme of things. 

843
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:29,200
Are we just being old farts? 
Being Luddites? 

844
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:34,880
Are we just those people who are
moaning about the inevitable 

845
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:39,240
future? 
Luddites. 

846
00:47:39,240 --> 00:47:43,560
Yeah, there have been Luddites 
in every generation, and I think

847
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:45,880
we're an important aspect of 
society. 

848
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:50,560
But this, this digital ID, it's 
different than anything we've 

849
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:54,400
ever seen in the past because 
it's the final, it's the final 

850
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:56,640
component of this digital 
control grid. 

851
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:01,360
It's a system that denies our 
very right to exist unless we 

852
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:04,520
let a third party name it. 
Big tech company or government, 

853
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:09,080
create an identity for us. 
And we only exist if they do 

854
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:12,520
that for us. 
And that's the danger because 

855
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:15,720
people need to remember their 
own authority. 

856
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:19,040
They have authority over their 
own lives. 

857
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:21,520
They can even impact their other
people's lives. 

858
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:23,080
They can impact their 
communities. 

859
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:26,160
So I think that all of these 
things are important. 

860
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:29,360
Like knowing your identity as a 
Luddite means that you know what

861
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:33,800
values you stand for, and the 
next few years will make that 

862
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:35,640
really obvious, what you stand 
for. 

863
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:38,640
You can either stand for 
complaining about the world and 

864
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:41,960
scrolling, doom scrolling, or 
you can get off your ass and do 

865
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:44,360
stuff in the real world, which 
is what I advocate for and I 

866
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:46,040
know it's what you advocate for 
too. 

867
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:53,280
So I think yes, be be a Luddite,
but also don't shoot yourself in

868
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:55,840
the foot if there are tools that
can help you along the way. 

869
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:58,280
What are some some things that 
you recommend? 

870
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:05,200
Right now I think that everyone 
should be using AD Google phone 

871
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:11,000
and a Linux laptop. 
And so my company above phone we

872
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:13,400
have the yougled phones and 
Linux laptops. 

873
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:15,840
You don't. 
We're not the only game in town.

874
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:18,720
I highly encourage people to 
install it on their own if they 

875
00:49:18,720 --> 00:49:21,680
know how. 
I've got resources and guides on

876
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:27,480
take back our tech.org also on 
my substack tbot.substack.com 

877
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:31,920
and the reason is is because 
these devices aren't pre hacked.

878
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:34,840
No one can install something on 
it without your knowledge, 

879
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:39,480
unlike a Windows computer, which
you have to scan your face to 

880
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:41,520
get into it. 
You don't have to, but it's one 

881
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:44,000
of the ways you use your 
fingerprints. 

882
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:47,360
There's AI on every aspect of 
the computer that's analysing 

883
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:50,600
everything you do, and you don't
have any choice. 

884
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:53,960
You have no personal choice or 
freedom to opt out of updates. 

885
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:58,200
You are along for the ride and 
Bill Gates is running the train.

886
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:04,440
So same thing with your phone. 
Everything I mentioned when it 

887
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:06,760
comes to your phone is is the 
same issues. 

888
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:08,800
Apps can be updated without your
knowledge. 

889
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:12,720
Things can change. 
Often times I tell iPhone users,

890
00:50:12,720 --> 00:50:15,760
hey, go look at your setting. 
Look, here's this setting that 

891
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:19,600
has began scanning all the 
photos on your phone already 

892
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:24,520
with AI and they're being added 
to a massive landmark database 

893
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:27,360
that Apple has, right? 
So you don't have control of 

894
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:31,160
your phone really. 
So we've been encouraging people

895
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:34,920
to use dehooled phones for about
5 years and we think we have 

896
00:50:35,240 --> 00:50:37,760
pretty much all the important 
things figured out. 

897
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:42,920
So navigation, there's tools on 
our phones that let you navigate

898
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:44,640
without even being connected to 
the Internet. 

899
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:49,880
You can download a map of the 
world and you know in real time 

900
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:52,160
and you have that map and then 
you can put your phone on 

901
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:55,480
airplane mode and get turned by 
turn navigations because turns 

902
00:50:55,480 --> 00:51:01,240
out GPS is a passive system. 
If your phone is listening to 

903
00:51:01,240 --> 00:51:03,800
radio waves, it's not actually 
needing to send anything out. 

904
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:08,160
Similarly with YouTube, there 
are ways you can watch YouTube 

905
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:11,880
privately and download the 
videos directly to your phone, 

906
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:13,520
right? 
This is transforming our 

907
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:15,880
relationship with technology. 
So if you want to learn more 

908
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:17,800
about that, I have a webinar 
that I did. 

909
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:21,400
You could go to 
learn.abovephone.com where I 

910
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:24,040
just go over everything, the 
phone, the laptop do. 

911
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:27,440
And I think this is a really 
important way to opt out of 

912
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:31,600
digital ID because again, if you
use a pre hacked device, it 

913
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:33,200
could just be imposed on you one
day. 

914
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:36,920
The cameras are definitely 
running and have gone over your 

915
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:40,200
face, and it might even become 
required to use a device at a 

916
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:43,160
certain point. 
You can download maps of your 

917
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:46,920
area and then you're saying you 
can turn your phone into 

918
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:48,960
airplane mode and still use 
Google Maps? 

919
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:56,080
Yes, there's the name of the app
is called Open St. 

920
00:51:56,080 --> 00:52:04,280
Maps and it's and it's not 
Google Maps but it is a non 

921
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:08,480
profit effort and it's an app 
that you can use on AD Google 

922
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:10,240
phone. 
You can also use it on a normal 

923
00:52:10,240 --> 00:52:14,000
Google phone for, for the time 
being anyways, in two years, 

924
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:16,800
Google's is imposing new rules 
and we can talk about that. 

925
00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:19,680
But yeah, so I mean, I've, I've 
taken a tour of the Eastern 

926
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:23,120
United States using this open 
source map alone, open St. 

927
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:26,800
Maps, Android. 
And you can, what I really like 

928
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:29,200
about it, like what I've been 
doing with it is instead of 

929
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:31,200
using Google Maps, I don't use 
Google. 

930
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:37,200
I try to avoid it at all costs. 
And I, and I'm building a record

931
00:52:37,720 --> 00:52:41,040
of things in my hometown that I 
want to go do, like the organic 

932
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:45,080
markets, the cafes that I go to.
And I'm saving it and all I have

933
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:48,600
it on like a local map database.
The really cool part about it is

934
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:51,480
I can share this file with other
people and they can import it, 

935
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:53,320
right? 
So it's like we have to take 

936
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:55,680
back our power when it comes to 
this technology. 

937
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:59,760
A map is a really useful tool. 
Like I, I don't need a map if 

938
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:03,520
I'm in somewhere I, I know well,
but it's a very useful tool. 

939
00:53:03,720 --> 00:53:07,360
Like imagine having a little bit
of a community, you kind of know

940
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:11,280
all the places in town to hang 
out that don't impose digital 

941
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:14,560
ID, that don't get processed 
food, that type of thing. 

942
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:17,080
And when someone is trusted 
enough in your community, you 

943
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:19,160
can actually provide this map 
file to them. 

944
00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:20,840
Here you go. 
Here's everything on our 

945
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:23,000
network. 
So that's kind of the techno 

946
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:25,720
optimist vision I have in for 
the future. 

947
00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:30,920
Would you would you recommend 
people put the devices onto 

948
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:33,520
airplane mode when they leave 
the house? 

949
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:38,760
If you're going to a protest, 
most definitely. 

950
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:45,840
If you're going to any form of 
like, what do I even say? 

951
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:50,440
If you're going to go be active 
for A cause somewhere that might

952
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:52,880
attract any sort of attention, 
just leave your phone at home. 

953
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:58,640
Don't even take it with you. 
So there's Google's Sensor 

954
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:00,160
Vault, which you may have heard 
about. 

955
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:05,760
That's the Geo fencing database.
This is a new type of law 

956
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:09,520
enforcement tool that lets them 
pick a date and a time. 

957
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:12,920
So they have a law enforcement, 
they want to know where someone 

958
00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:15,760
was at the scene of the murder. 
So they go on the map, they draw

959
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:19,040
a box around the area, they pick
a date and the time, and they 

960
00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:21,720
can actually pull up all the 
Google phones in that area. 

961
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:26,160
So they've had the power to do 
this. 

962
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:31,360
They used it during the infamous
January 6 protests to catch 

963
00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:36,000
people. 
They've used similar things to 

964
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:40,240
around like these. 
These are the most popular types

965
00:54:40,240 --> 00:54:43,840
of law enforcement warrants in 
the United States right now. 

966
00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:46,440
I think it's like a few thousand
a year. 

967
00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:49,440
But they've blown up in 
popularity because it's less 

968
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:52,080
groundwork that they have to do.
And they also land innocent 

969
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:54,520
people in jail. 
God forbid you let someone 

970
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:57,000
borrow your phone or you log 
into your account on someone 

971
00:54:57,000 --> 00:54:58,880
else's phone that happens to be 
a murderer. 

972
00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:01,040
And I talk about this on the 
webinar. 

973
00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:04,040
There have been innocent people 
who were in jail and lost a lot 

974
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:08,520
of things because they were more
likely to trust the data than 

975
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:11,720
they were that person's alibi. 
So all these crazy things can 

976
00:55:11,720 --> 00:55:14,760
happen when people use big tech 
phones and they don't realize 

977
00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:16,920
it. 
There are a lot of things that 

978
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:20,200
happen on the back end and I 
haven't even talked about the 

979
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:21,960
data centres or anything like 
that yet. 

980
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:25,640
Yeah, you said a moment ago that
Google have got new rules coming

981
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:31,800
in the next two years. 
Yeah, so with the rise of open 

982
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:36,800
source software, Linux laptops 
and de Googled phones, Google is

983
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:39,560
actually threatened. 
They're threatened by this. 

984
00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:45,560
And so earlier this year it goes
in March or May, they published 

985
00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:50,200
A blog post saying, Hey, guys, 
we we studied the different 

986
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:52,920
place where you can download 
apps. 

987
00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:57,120
To provide some context, if you 
use an Android phone, you can 

988
00:55:57,120 --> 00:56:00,600
install an app from anywhere. 
They're called APK Files, and 

989
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:02,040
it's an app you can install on 
your phone. 

990
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:04,400
You can get it directly from the
developer's website. 

991
00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:07,760
So if you use maybe a web 
browser or search engine, you 

992
00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:10,280
might realize you can download 
it directly from their website. 

993
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:13,800
It's not like that for iPhones. 
They can only download things 

994
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:17,840
through the App Store, right? 
So, so Google had this freedom 

995
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:21,960
and it allowed for this 
community to develop of people 

996
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:25,040
building free and open source 
apps where the code was 

997
00:56:25,040 --> 00:56:26,760
transparent. 
So you could see that there was 

998
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:30,280
no tracking in it. 
And this is too popular now 

999
00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:32,720
because Youtubers are talking 
about it, people are talking 

1000
00:56:32,720 --> 00:56:35,640
about it, people are using it. 
And now this community has grown

1001
00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:38,840
so big, Google says, all right, 
we got to lock this down. 

1002
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:45,400
And what they're doing is by 
2027, they will make side 

1003
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:49,240
loading, installing apps on the 
side impossible for anyone who 

1004
00:56:49,240 --> 00:56:52,200
uses a Google phone. 
That goes for Google, Samsung, 

1005
00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:56,240
Chinese brands like Xiaomi, 
OnePlus, anything that is 

1006
00:56:56,240 --> 00:56:58,040
licensed Google operating 
system. 

1007
00:56:58,720 --> 00:57:02,000
They won't be able to install 
the rest of the apps that are 

1008
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:04,800
already sitting out there. 
So it creates this digital wall 

1009
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:07,560
between US and it sucks for 
them. 

1010
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:10,280
It sucks for people who use big 
tech phones because it's not for

1011
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:11,600
the people who use the Google 
phones. 

1012
00:57:11,600 --> 00:57:13,320
It's for the people who use big 
tech phones. 

1013
00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:19,560
When I. 
Was in China, I saw, I saw what 

1014
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:24,760
Huawei, they've now developed 
their own operating system and 

1015
00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:28,440
their own apps and they've 
they've developed an entire 

1016
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:30,720
ecosystem. 
What do you know about that? 

1017
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:36,360
Yes, it's the battle for battle 
for app stores. 

1018
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:41,760
This is so this is crazy, but 
Google can bully multi billion 

1019
00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:45,520
dollar companies around. 
It's actually really cool to 

1020
00:57:45,520 --> 00:57:50,720
learn about this, but basically 
what you see is Google has these

1021
00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:55,960
malicious or exploitive 
licensing agreements. 

1022
00:57:56,200 --> 00:57:59,600
Hey, you want to use the Google 
operating system on your phone 

1023
00:57:59,880 --> 00:58:01,840
and get all the benefits that it
comes with. 

1024
00:58:01,960 --> 00:58:06,120
Okay, that's great, but you must
only use the Google Play Store. 

1025
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:11,120
You can't market your own Play 
Store and you can't pre install 

1026
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:14,400
these certain apps on the phones
like Epic Games, Fortnite. 

1027
00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:18,200
That was a whole controversy. 
So Huawei has probably been 

1028
00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:22,040
dealing with these issues under 
Google and they've decided, all 

1029
00:58:22,040 --> 00:58:24,160
right, we don't want to deal 
with this. 

1030
00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:25,840
We don't want to continue to 
offer Google Play. 

1031
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:27,680
We want to build our own 
ecosystem. 

1032
00:58:27,720 --> 00:58:32,200
So now they are launching this 
alternative and I'm not sure how

1033
00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:34,760
it's going to go. 
They'll have to work something 

1034
00:58:34,760 --> 00:58:42,360
out with Google to at least be 
able to to run the this called 

1035
00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:45,400
Google Play integrity, which is 
a check to make sure it's a 

1036
00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:48,080
licensed Google device. 
So they'll need that because a 

1037
00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:51,400
lot of apps around the world 
will require this. 

1038
00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:54,240
But if they don't get it, which 
they might not because China 

1039
00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:58,000
has, you know, so much going for
it and so much like people who 

1040
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:00,680
are dedicated to it, If it just 
works with Chinese apps, I'm 

1041
00:59:00,680 --> 00:59:03,880
sure that's all right, too. 
So, yeah, big tech companies are

1042
00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:06,960
starting to realize that they 
shouldn't be bullied by Google. 

1043
00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:10,160
There's also some antitrust 
rulings in the EU that have 

1044
00:59:10,640 --> 00:59:14,840
pushed Google further back. 
What would your nugget of wisdom

1045
00:59:14,840 --> 00:59:17,840
be? 
Yeah. 

1046
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:22,400
So you have about two to three 
years before this starts 

1047
00:59:22,400 --> 00:59:26,360
becoming real and it starts to 
impact your life on a day-to-day

1048
00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:28,360
level. 
If you're in the EU, it'll 

1049
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:31,760
happen sooner. 
If you're in the United States 

1050
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:34,240
or Mexico, it might take a 
little bit of longer, take a 

1051
00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:36,240
little bit longer, but it's 
happening. 

1052
00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:38,400
Wherever you're at in the world,
it's happening. 

1053
00:59:38,960 --> 00:59:43,200
And you cannot let it get to a 
point where most people are 

1054
00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:46,920
using this digital ID system 
because then there's no point 

1055
00:59:47,320 --> 00:59:50,160
for them to continue adopting 
and they will put the walls up. 

1056
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:54,160
So imagine one day you get a 
notification from your bank 

1057
00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:56,120
saying you don't have a digital 
ID. 

1058
00:59:56,120 --> 00:59:59,880
You can't access your funds. 
Or you go to the grocery store 

1059
00:59:59,920 --> 01:00:02,640
and those little doors and stuff
that they have, those little 

1060
01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:04,440
terminals that they have before 
you enter the store. 

1061
01:00:04,680 --> 01:00:06,440
Now there's a place to scan your
digital ID. 

1062
01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:09,720
What are you going to do? 
If you don't do anything about 

1063
01:00:09,720 --> 01:00:11,840
what I just said, you're 
absolutely fucked. 

1064
01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:13,640
You're going to have to figure 
something out. 

1065
01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:16,520
You're going to have to comply 
with a digital ID and everything

1066
01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:21,240
that comes after it, which means
you'll be a slave in its own 

1067
01:00:21,240 --> 01:00:23,880
way. 
Or you can take these next few 

1068
01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:27,360
years to build that local 
community that's so important. 

1069
01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:30,960
Have alternatives for this. 
When they tell you OK, you know 

1070
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:33,960
you can't access your bank 
account once, it's OK because 

1071
01:00:33,960 --> 01:00:36,920
you have a barter network or you
have an alternative currency. 

1072
01:00:36,920 --> 01:00:40,240
You're invested in gold and 
silver, you're growing your own 

1073
01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:43,800
food, you're more resilient when
you go to the grocery store, 

1074
01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:46,760
same type of thing. 
It's very important for us to 

1075
01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:50,320
build these local networks now 
and for the communication side 

1076
01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:53,760
to make sure you have devices 
that can't be hacked without 

1077
01:00:53,760 --> 01:00:56,920
your knowledge. 
So the timeline is there. 

1078
01:00:57,040 --> 01:01:00,360
This is another COVID in its own
way, and it's setting the stage 

1079
01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:05,920
for complete world domination. 
So reclaim your authority. 

1080
01:01:06,760 --> 01:01:12,720
Is this the hill to die on? 
I think so, you know, the Agenda

1081
01:01:12,720 --> 01:01:16,880
2030 is, is one thing that that 
gets brought up over and over 

1082
01:01:16,880 --> 01:01:18,880
again. 
And I think this is the, it's 

1083
01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:24,480
the sucky part is this is like 
just the first piece of Agenda 

1084
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:26,600
2030. 
And once the digital ID is 

1085
01:01:26,600 --> 01:01:28,560
there, the rest of things can 
come after it. 

1086
01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:32,000
So I think this is the hill to 
die on this decade. 

1087
01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:35,720
Who knows, maybe there'll be 
like a Skynet thing to fight. 

1088
01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:38,400
Maybe you have to fight. 
Fight the robots and aliens next

1089
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:40,160
year. 
Save your energy for that 

1090
01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:42,720
digital ID this year. 
It's really easy, guys. 

1091
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:46,440
Just use a different device. 
We can fight the robots in 

1092
01:01:46,440 --> 01:01:47,920
20-30. 
It'll be much better. 

1093
01:01:48,200 --> 01:01:51,120
It'll be harder. 
All right, one last time. 

1094
01:01:51,120 --> 01:01:56,560
How can my audience follow you? 
Yeah, so check us out on 

1095
01:01:56,560 --> 01:02:00,360
Substack. 
That's TB, ot.substack.com. 

1096
01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:03,760
If you want to learn about the 
tech solutions I brought up, go 

1097
01:02:03,760 --> 01:02:07,400
check out our webinar at 
learn.abovephone.com. 

1098
01:02:07,520 --> 01:02:11,000
learn.abovephone.com. 
We also have it's the end of the

1099
01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:14,880
year, so we're having a sale on 
privacy phones and laptops. 

1100
01:02:14,880 --> 01:02:19,960
If you want to learn about that,
go to abovephone.com/germ. 

1101
01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:24,920
It's just Germ's name and. 
I didn't know about that. 

1102
01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:27,800
Oh, I should. 
I should have mentioned it to 

1103
01:02:27,800 --> 01:02:30,880
you. 
But, you know, we, we, Yeah, we 

1104
01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:32,600
want. 
To go, I'm going to go have a 

1105
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:35,280
look. 
What's on there? 

1106
01:02:36,600 --> 01:02:40,040
It's just your face, really, 
big, Germ recommends about now. 

1107
01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:41,760
Just kidding. 
I do, I do. 

1108
01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:47,400
I recommend. 
All right, Akima Noir, Thank you

1109
01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:48,800
for joining me in the Drenchers,
my friend. 

1110
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:51,360
Thank you brother. 
It's Honor beyond. 

1111
01:02:51,360 --> 01:02:52,480
Thanks everyone for listening.