Well, hello Clive Edwards, it's it's wonderful to to have you
here today on UK column to speak about what you do and your
wonderful website capillary wave.
And now I know you because you've been involved in, in the
local area that I'm in and been helping people and councils and
all sorts of things. And I've been over to your land,
which is amazing what you're doing there.
You know, you've, you've literally built yourself a, an
amazing fortress where you, you, you sort of you're, you're
walking your talk. You're, you're doing your whole,
you're living your life out of the system, which has got to be
commended. And I just wanted to ask you,
you know, you know, you say that your platform came out of your
sort of legal entanglements, you know, with your local council
and then a broader study of law and governance.
And you know, could you briefly sort of tell us about that
journey and how you got to where you are and, and what was the
turning point where you realised you were operating in one
jurisdiction rather than another?
Yeah. Well, firstly, thank you Sandy,
lovely to see you and thanks for, you know, thanks for
inviting me on the UK columns. Great to be here.
So as you say, I I came into stark conflict's a strong word,
but I guess perhaps it was conflict with the States.
They came and knocked on my door one day.
Head of planning enforcement. I was putting up a fence in on a
bit of on a field I've got where I stored some building
materials. I used to run a construction
company down in Somerset and then the head of planning, head
of planning enforcement turned up one day with his clipboard
and said, Clive, you've got to stop what you're doing.
And I've used the analogy before, but I was, my life was
bombing along at 100 mile an hour in the fast lane.
And all of a sudden the council came knocking and pulled the
handbrake up and I went into a tailspin.
And so I, I like basically they were, what this meant was it was
threatening the very existence of my building company.
And I was probably about 35 at the time.
I was just about to get married. You know, my life was just like
sort of taking off, if you know what I mean.
And then the council, the council turned up and basically
what they were asking me to do would have, you know, to cease
the store. And a building materials at my
field would have meant I'd have had to go and hire a yard.
You know, it would have, I think it would have put me out of
business. This was around 2007, eight when
the recession was biting really hard for those in the
construction industry. So it was tough enough as it
was. Then I had the council, well
actually had a joint, the joint forces of the local council and
then HMRC came knocking. So that brought me head first
into an indictable offence. Now I don't know if your
audience, no, I didn't know what an indictable offence was at the
time, but it's, it's with planning enforcement, it's an
unlimited fine and indictable means it's, you could be sent to
prison for it. So and it can end up in Crown
Court. So it's fairly serious.
I didn't know at the time how serious it was, but it was a
serious situation. Gosh.
And so you know, on your website you, you distinguish between
legal and lawful. How do you define those two
terms, and what are the practical consequences for an
individual who's unaware of that distinction?
Yeah, well, this is crucial, Sandy.
This finding out this distinction between legal and
lawful was the key to success in me because I, I ultimately I
defeated the, I say, defeated the council went away.
They didn't want to tangle them anymore because in the end I
became, I came to understand the system of law and governance
really well. And and I got it got to a stage
where I was able to pull their rules and show them with their
rules why they should leave me alone.
And I think that's, that's, that's the point of ultimate
success, when you can show your adversary their own rules as to
why they have to leave you alone, which we'll get on to,
I'm sure in this discussion. That's when, that's when they,
because that doesn't require their belief, their belief in
what I'm telling them I'm able to, I'm able to use their own
laws, which they understand to, to point out, you know, the
boundaries of their jurisdiction.
So for me, when the council came knocking, I had to, I mean, I
was in a tailspin. I again, I, I felt someone
dropped me in the middle of the sea and nobody knew if I could
swim. So I, I started just to do a,
you know, treading water a bit, just keep your neck above the
water. And I, I started by looking at
the council's enforcement policies because I thought,
well, you know, how on earth can this guy I've never, ever met
before in my life, How can he just turn up and put an end to
my end to my life, as I saw at the time.
So I started, I thought I'd start by looking at their
enforcement policies. And I, I did that and, and that,
that was, you know, that was fairly useful.
But the actual bit of gold that I found Sandy, which maybe a lot
of people aren't aware, but every council's got a what's
called a constitution. This is a really, really
important document. And in that constitution, I, so
I started reading that constitution.
And so, so I'll just put that there a minute because you asked
about legal and lawful. So the legal system, let's talk
about, I sent you some, a couple of photographs.
I don't know if you're able to put them on the screen, but.
Oh, right. I don't, oh, I don't know
whether I can do that right now. I did.
I yeah, there was a bit of a confusion this morning about
yeah, I couldn't, I couldn't get those two.
But I I I know that is it the two banners that you had at the
at the talk? I saw you do.
That's right. Yeah.
I do a few talks and my talks are available online.
And so the, the, the, the United Kingdom now this is something
that actually not enough people understand. the United Kingdom
is what is known at law is a, it's, it's a body politic.
And that's exactly what it sounds like.
It's a political body. It's a political structure.
It doesn't exist in reality. So it's, it's just a what in
terms of law and governance, it's known what's known as
illegal fiction. So, so if you, for instance, if
your audience was to go to Wikipedia and search for United
Kingdom, what they what will show, what Wikipedia will offer
them is a picture of a Union Jack and some heraldry.
And it'll you're able to click a button and you'll hear the
national anthem. Now, it's not able to show you
what the United Kingdom is because it's a political
construct. It doesn't exist in reality.
And I often say that my talks ioffer free tickets for a all
inclusive family holiday to Yugoslavia.
Just come and collect them and. There's no place exists anymore.
Exactly Yugoslavia that that political construct no longer
exists. The landmass exists just like
the landmass of the British Isles is a real and tangible
thing, but the company, the corporate entity that operates
out of it, United Kingdom, is not a tangible real thing.
So that's what a country is. And and so I came to so I
started scratching my head and I started thinking, well, how can
these state actors? Where did they get their
authority from? Like where does the council gain
their authority to turn up in my life and put an end to my life
as I saw it, my means of earning money for my family.
I was just about to get married, as I say, like, how did this
happen? So I started looking at the main
actors and States and saw, you know, what they did in in and
where they gained their authority from.
So that led me to the monarchs coronation that that and they
bring out the Bible, but the Bible is very prevalent in the
monarchs coronation and then I find.
In the oh, in the monarchs coronation, yeah.
Absolutely. Yeah.
I'll get on to the two jurisdictions of state in a
minute. We'll break it.
I'll break it down throughout that.
Throughout state. Yeah.
So in the monarchs coronation, anyone that's seen it, the the
Bible is very prevalent in that service.
But and then I also find find out that judges every year they
mark the start of the legal year.
There's such a thing as that's called a legal year.
And they marked the start of that legal year.
All the judiciary, all the top people in of, of the judiciary
in the legal system meets at Westminster Abbey and they sing
praise to God and our prayers and, and it's a very big
ceremony. So that's sort of got me
thinking. It's like, well, God's involved
in law and governance somewhere along it's, you know, God's
seriously involved here in law and governance.
And then I find out that in the House of Commons, every every
single day in the House of Commons, they have a prayer
session before, before Parliament opens.
Yes. They're not very godly though,
are they? No.
Well, we'll get into that because the legal system, civil
law, the legal systems run on civil law and civil, civil law
means is secularly organised and the definition of secular means
lacking in ethics and morality and a belief in God.
That is the definition of of secular.
Yeah. And we don't we at the moment
under a secular sort of legal system, don't we?
Absolutely. So it is actually a godless
rather. Yeah, yes.
And, and I'll get on to explain why.
So what the legal system do is mimic the lawful system.
Now this took me about 15 years to find out.
So it was a, it was a very long, very long and arduous process.
Or I, I trawl through all their policies, their acts and, and
the Bible. And I had to do so forensically
at times. And so I came to find out that,
well, how the legal system work is they, they copy and mimic the
lawful system. They just, it's just a mirror,
mirror image of it. So on the lawful side, you've
got God our Father who art in heaven.
And, and on the legal side, the, I don't know how many people are
aware, but King Charles has got one of his titles is Father of
the nation. So when I found that, I thought
that's interesting. I wonder who the mother is.
So on the Bible, on the biblical side and the mother is the is
Christchurch. Like we're the living stones of
Christchurch. So we, the followers of Christ
are actually Christchurch. But then, but Christchurch is
known as mother Church. So I thought, well, who's the
mother on the legal side, since they're just copying and
mirroring it, mirroring everything.
So on the legal side, they've got the, the Church of England
is known as mother Church. And this is where this is where
it now starts to get really important because we'll bring it
down to councils and things in a, in a moment about my
particular fight. So on the on God's side, on the
Bible side, we're what's known as children of God, just in
simple terms. And on the legal side, we're
known, we're what's known as like the King's the father, the
church is the mother and we're infants wards of the state.
So that's what that's what we're we're viewed as and that's
that's what we become when we subject ourselves to to an
earthly king. And is that why certain areas
are called wards do you think? Yes, absolutely.
Exactly. Yeah.
And yes. And it's no, it's no coincidence
that when you're dealing in elections, you elect someone
from a ward of a district. That's right.
And and you became so when we when we get involved in the in
the voting system is when you do you have to get enrolled on the
electoral register. Now that that when you enrol on
the electoral register that then places you as a subject of the
king in just in short terms. So you become and that breaks
the first commandment because in the first commandment it says
thou thou shall have no other gods before me.
And in that commandment is the small G God and the strongest
congolonance of that small G God is earthly kings, judges and
rulers. So that was very interesting to
me that the voting process makes you, if you like it, it breaks
the first commandment and and God says in the in the Bible
call no man on earth your father, because there is one
Father in in heaven. And of course, so when you enrol
on the electoral register and become a subject of an earthly
king, he then becomes your father.
That's why he gets to make the rules and you become an infinite
of the state. Yeah.
So, so in fact, so this, this when you've got the two, the two
jurisdictions, you've got God's law and you've got this secular
legal system that that has kind of been overlaid on the top of
God's law because God's law was there in the beginning.
Is that what you're saying? And then this was kind of
brought in over the top to kind of trance it.
I wouldn't say it's brought in. I wouldn't say it's brought in
over the top because they put it right there before us.
It's right under our noses, but it is it's in the hierarchy.
It sits below God's law, if you like.
It's gone in the biblical system and the and the because they all
go to in their ceremonies and worship God and we and we then
subjected ourselves to the king and they worship God.
So, so I'm trying to, I'm paying devil's advocate here.
So you're saying 2 tiered during jurisdiction basically.
And you've got, you've got 2, two different factions, but they
kind of merged together for, for the, for, for show, for theatre,
for whatever it is. But underneath it all they are
godless. Is that what you're saying?
I'm trying to get my head around this, Yeah.
No. So the hierarchy is, is that the
legal system is a derivative, derivative of the biblical
lawful system because everyone's period of legal, what's legal
and what's lawful, but very few actually understand what lawful
actually means. Lawful is a, it means it's
referring to the Bible and that and that doctrine.
So yeah, the legal system is body politics are run on civil
law and civil law is Roman law, which is why the king at his
coronation Dons an imperial crown.
Imperial means Roman, but at his coronation he Dons 2 crimes and
those two crimes of office reflect reflect the two
jurisdictions. So he he puts on the crown of
Saint Edward's crime which is known as the crown of God and
that that reflects the jurisdiction under God.
And that he also in the same coronation, puts on a an
imperial crown, and that is the Roman crown, reflecting his
office of state where he rules over the subjects.
So is it that he's serving 2 masters in that?
In that. Respect.
Yeah. He has tried to choose
jurisdictions because in Romans 13, one, it says the powers that
be are ordained by God. So if you like God said, God
said for those that turn their back on me, IE break the first
commandment and go and subject themselves to an earthly king,
which we're told not to. For those that do that, you can
go over there and he will govern you.
And that's that's why they're allowed to.
That's why they're allowed to beat you up because you you've
broke the first commandment. Now that that the King's two
crimes of office are reflected at judge at judges level as
well. So judges swear, judges swear to
oaths. 1 oath is to the office of the United Kingdom and that
office there and the other oath is now these oaths take diligent
and forensic reading, OK. But the other oath is it is to
do with the jurisdiction under God.
And there's maxims of law that says judge is judged for God.
And there's another one that says it's punishment enough for
a judge to know that he's judged by God.
So. I, no, I I wasn't aware of that
because from what I've looked at, and I don't want to in any
way disagree with you in in this respect, but I was under the
assumption that that council judges rather swear the oath to
the King. Yeah, that's that's right.
They swear one oath to the office of United Kingdom, which
is under the King. So that's correct.
Well, I I thought it was only that I didn't.
I I'm from what I'm aware of, they don't swear to to God.
Yeah, well, one of the one, the other oath is under the
jurisdiction. I'll just say it like that,
under the jurisdiction of God. So because, because the king
destroyed 2, the king destroyed 2 jurisdictions.
So judges if, if the if there wasn't 22 jurisdictions, judges
wouldn't need to swear 2 oaths. And, and, and this rolls down at
the police level. That's why a police officer is
also a police constable. So the police constable swears
an oath to protect the people. Now the people are on on God's
side. That's.
Something I do want to get straight because you talk about
people and persons and people are living souls under God's law
and persons illegal fictions under legislative control.
So it sounds a bit straw, manly and freeman on the land, which I
must admit I keep right away from, but.
Yeah, so do I. Yeah, just just on that point,
I've got an article that that explains and denounces the
Freeman on the land position because that's that's that's a
fallacy that's going to go nowhere.
But persons are mentioned in the Bible and there's many places it
says if you have respect to persons, you've transgressed the
law and sinned and it says that's it.
James 29, I think it isn't it Job 3221, it says have no
respect of man's person or don't accept man's title or, or my or
my maker will surely take me away.
So persons are mentioned throughout the Bible and in 99%
of the of the cases it's a very bad thing to be so a.
Person. A person?
Yes. A.
Person is is really under the jurisdiction of the legislative.
That's right. And that's why, and that's
exactly why it's bad in the eyes of God, because you broke the to
be a person of the state, you would have had to break the
first commandment. Have no other gods before me.
So you'll only become a person when you subject yourself to an
earthly king, which is why going back to the constables of those
22 jurisdictions, again, a police officer like the clues
and the title of that, that's for the office of the State of
the United Kingdom. And a, a police constable swears
an oath to protect people and property.
So that's on the jurist on God. So it's, it's an oath on this
side because an oath is a, a pledge to a deity.
So it's higher than mankind. So that's the oath side and
under God. OK, I'm, I'm because obviously
our viewers, you know, are, are looking at all this going, Oh my
goodness, this is this is it really scrambles your brain,
doesn't it? It does.
So tell me, I mean, there's the, the the reason why I've steered
very clear of ever interviewing anyone from any kind of common
law thing is because everybody argues about their system is
right, you're wrong, every single one of them.
And that it, it really puts you off.
I mean, it puts you off. I agree.
What? What's different?
About your system, tell me what wins.
Have you actually managed to for other people as well?
I'll tell you. Exactly what's different about
what I talk about? Because it's the very fact that
it's not my system. Yeah, it's, it's not.
It's nothing to do with Clive Edwards.
I just have to find that this is the system.
This is a paradigm, is a model. It's a system.
And, and, and what I've what I'm explaining now explain on my
website is the paradigm is the model.
And, and I found out these two jurisdictions go from the king
to judges to the police, right down to local councils.
And we'll get on to that. I'm sure in a bit amended
District Council. I'll show you their evidence to
their constitution. Where where it breaks, it breaks
the, the difference between the people of God and the persons in
the electorate of the state. Believe it or not, it's in your
local council's constitution. Yeah, would that.
Work because mend it doesn't exist anymore.
It says they they've gone unitary and they that's right
there now. Is Somerset Council, I believe,
isn't it? It would be that, yeah.
It's. Somerset now would it be the
same? So we've got.
I've got members at Capillary from all over Britain and so
we've we're building up a a library of council's
constitutions. So there's there's a
constitution. Basingstoke, I did send you
through the photograph that for, yes, yeah.
I'm sorry for your audience. Yeah, it's.
It's I've got it on my that we we can put.
Those in the show notes OK. Show notes.
So fantastic, your two banners and everything else in the show
notes. Yeah, yeah.
So if you like. I, I'll read out Basingstoke's,
an excerpt from Basingstoke's council because this is relevant
because I had to when I found this out, it's when Mendip
started to leave me alone on my for the planning issue.
And that's when I went on to build a farm.
And as you said, you visited my farm, Sandy, and seen it with
your own eyes. So, and that was many years ago
that I had this battle with Mendeb.
It's it's long, it's long in the dust night.
But so this the two jurisdictions of state from the
king to the judges to police. And now this is at local council
level where it talks about the people of God.
It doesn't say people of God, obviously, it just says people.
And then it talks about the election and council taxpayers.
So in basing, sorry, Gravesend Borough Council's constitution,
it says allow local people to have a real and informed say
about the issues that affect them.
So local people, the councils are accountable to people, but
they're not accountable to the electorate, the subjects of the
king. So at the very next line it says
this explain to electors and council taxpayers the reasons
for particular policies and priorities.
So the council explains the policies to their electorate,
because if you're one of the electorate, you're what's known
as a commoner, and a commoner is a member of the third estate of
the realm. They're the commoner is the
lowest position at law you can be, whereas one of the people
was the highest position at law you can be.
So when I started to find this stuff out and started to mention
in this to amend the District Council, they backed off of me
big time. I said I'm one of the people.
What did that look like? The backing off, how did how did
that present well, don't get so. Let's just paint the picture.
I mean, I had to go. I had police turning up here,
enforcement officers. I'm talking this is years of
probably 3-4, five years of, let's call it discussions with
Mendip Council that involved enforcement officers and the
police. Now, I didn't know a lot of this
at the time. They were just treating me as
one of the lecturer, one of their commoners.
And when I started to understand this and find this out, I
started right into the Section 151 officer and they are
responsible to make sure the Council operates doesn't operate
ultravirus, which means beyond the law.
It's the section. 15151 officers job to make sure.
Now it will say in their constitution to operate legally
and lawfully. It says it in their own
constitution. So it evidences these two
jurisdictions that we're talking about today in their own
constitution and it's the Section 1.
Sorry, I, I just because they, they, they operate legally and
lawfully. So you use both sides of of
this, yes, you've got God's law and then you've got the, the
legal system, the. Legal.
System. Yes, that's correct.
They use both. They use both.
It's a melding of the two. No that.
No, it's not a melding. It's they have citizens of the
state to look after and then they also they're accountable to
the people and the God. They're accountable to me, but
they're not accountable to their own citizens because as as a
citizen, you consented to be governed, you pledged that you
make yourself a subject. So it's a matter of choice which
you the decide you're going to be governed by.
Yeah, yeah, everyone's. Familiar with that phrase freed
sorry, consent of the governed and we do we do have a choice so
how do you. How do you get yourself out of
the matrix? Then what do you have to do?
Right, that's a really good question.
So right, the word Atorn, the word Atorn means to turn away
from 1 Lord and go and serve another.
There's only two jurisdiction as mankind on planet earth.
There's only ever two things you can be under.
You can be under man or God. That's it.
So and certain that's the situation at Britain here.
You can be under man in the United Kingdom under that under
the jurisdiction of the, the secular legal system, or he can
be under God on the, on, on the British Isles, which which is
what I did. So the word atone means to turn
away from 1 Lord to go and serve another Lord.
And that's why there's a, a general in, in charge of all the
attorneys, the attorney general. So I wrote to the attorney
general and explained to him some of this and and then I
rescinded my consent to be, to have that name, that legal name
on the electoral register. So that that's the first thing.
Because if I'd, I had in my mind that the council was very likely
going to take me to court over this planning thing.
Because in the end, I wrote to the local council and told them
that I was going to build a house on this field.
And if they had any objections, let me know.
But they never wrote back to me. And I've gone ahead and built a
farm as you, as you, as you know.
So. And the reason they've left me
alone and not they, they, they, they've refused to take me to
court. I've written in 3 or 4 letters
to them over the years asking them to take me to court.
Now Mendip got a, an expert in planning law from South Wales to
come and prosecute me. And especially for my case.
I know that because I asked him and when he got the job I asked
for a meeting with him, which I did at mended district council's
offices. We had a meeting.
I asked him a few things. I said have I got a right to a
private life? He said yes.
I said can the council force themselves to to be my
authority? He said no, we've got that
choice. A council is just a you didn't
have to. No, that's right.
They can't, for we've got we got freedom of choice.
A council and a local authority are different things.
A council becomes a local authority when you submit
yourself, when you're a subject of the king, you then become one
of their electorate. But I'm one of the people under
God, so they're not my local authority, but they are a
council and they're accountable to me.
Now their own constitution states that.
So it's so they're, they're I asked, I also asked their, this,
their planning expert, if it's illegal not to have planning
permission. And he said, no, it's not.
And I knew it wasn't. I asked him these questions
because I knew the answer. Now we've got a right to a
private life and a private life is on the, it's not under God
because everything, everything under the UK, under the UK
system is in common. That's why we have the House of
Commons. We have people play on the
common land exactly that they play on the Commons.
That's why there's a Commonwealth.
It's owned, it's owned commonly. But I've got they say you've got
a right to a private life. And so I started pointing these
things out. And it was at that point the
their planning expert said to me, Clive, we're not going to
take you to court. What?
Because you. You.
Knew you knew where you stood, and they knew where you stood
precisely. Sandy Yeah.
And this is what I'm saying because as you said, you know,
you refer to the common law and the straw man stuff.
That's a lot. That's a lot of nonsense.
And then you, you know, you said what about my system?
And, and that's my point. This isn't my system.
I just pointed out what their rules say because it's the
system. It's their system.
This is the system of law and governance.
Now I find this absolutely fascinating and This is why I, I
kind of wanted you on and I know I've been to your land and you
have literally built it. It's impenetrable.
So what many people can do that if they have, if they, if they
buy a field and they want to, you know, put structures on it
and, and live on the land the way that you do.
Some people haven't got the means to build great big walls
and electric gates and what have you.
So would it work for them? Is that one reason why they're
not? Or is it because you have come
out of the matrix and they know it?
Or is it because you're you're such a fortress?
It's I. Mean I knew.
So just on the fortress part, I knew.
Listen, when I started doing this, I knew I was in, I knew I
was running headlong into a battle with the state.
So like any good general, you have to get your defences in
order first. So I put a boundary wall UPS
because I wanted I, I, I made it difficult them to just walk in.
I needed them to go and get a court warrant more either.
So to get into my place, you either have to be invited in or
you need court paperwork. So I made it hard for the
council to just walk in because they will just walk in.
OK, so that's that's that point. But yeah, the main point is
because because I understood the two jurisdictions of man and
God, legal and lawful, and I and I rescinded my consent to be
governed on the legal side, I took the name off of the
electoral register. So now when I tell them I'm a
people under God, I'm not lying because it's no good claiming to
be a people under God if you're if the legal name, because the
the electoral register is evidence of your consent to be
governed under the legal system. It's written evidence of it.
So to your point, yet any people can do what I've done.
I'm not saying it's easy because like me, most most citizens have
been walking around on the government rung duck farm for
20-30 forty years. So the government think, well,
hang on, you're one of our ducks.
You've been waddling and quacking like one of our ducks.
What are you doing? Telling us you're a swan?
Yeah. And when?
You, when you make these distinctions and when you see
what I do is point out in their own laws, Sandy, I I find this
stuff in their constitution, in the council's constitution.
Yeah, it's. It is there.
Before our nose, but it's taken me 15 years to piece it all
together. Yeah, I mean, you, you've been
writing about how the governments drive their power
through our consent, often without realising it.
So what forms of hidden consent are most people giving and how
do they withdraw or transform from that consent?
Apart from saying I'm not, I'm not going to be on the electoral
register, go to the attorney general and say I'm not going
to, you know, I'm going to turn away from you.
What? What other things can one do to
transform that consent to, to actually really get yourself out
of the system? Yeah.
So one.
Of the obviously being on the electoral register is the main,
is the main evidence of your consent to the UK legal system.
Now it's no, it's no coincidence the, the electoral register's
like a bit like the school register that your choosers, you
know, twice a twice a day, morning and afternoon.
Sandy Adams Yes, Miss Well, the electoral register is very
similar. They get you when you called up
for jury service, they get the names of the electoral register.
And this is important, as is war conscription, as is war
conscription. They get those names of the
electoral register and that's very relevant right now, I
think. So on a, on smaller scales, I
said to you that accounts on A and a local authority are
different things at law and they are.
So a council, a council becomes a local authority.
In my instance, had I applied for planning permission, then
that would, I would have effectively been signing up to
the terms and conditions of the Town and Country Planning Act
because the planning permission is basically an agreement.
I give them money, they send the guy out to make sure I'm
building it to the standards of the Town and Country Planning
Act and the terms and conditions of that act and that that's a
contractual relationship. So they can only issue an
enforcement notice under 2 under 2 circumstances. 1 is
contractual. IEI pay them money for an
extension or a house and they give me permission and then I
build it and then they send someone out and say yes, you
built it to the agreement. So and if you don't build it to
the agreement, you'll find yourself in court.
The other way they can enforce against their citizens or or
people actually, as if you've caused to harm IEA slurry tank
bursts and there's slurry emptying into a river, killing
all the fish, damaging farmland down the river.
Now that's harm. So they'll come out and jump on
you in a heartbeat. And so they should so.
So enforcement can only be issued under 2 circumstances. 1
is contractual when a council then becomes an authority at
your consent and the other is through harm.
Yeah, I mean. What what I've noticed really
about the way you operate and the way other people operate
within the common law, if you like, arena, is that you work
very much as an individual. And, you know, could this be
your, your world, your, your kind of, could it be a fantasy
world that you've built up? How can you prove to me that
this is, this is something that you are living by apart from the
fact that you've you've built all these amazing structures?
Have you, have you had successes outside of your, you know,
helping people, for instance, with council stuff or, or given
your own planning permission? Have you helped anyone else that
Yeah, yeah. So.
When the council came at me all those years ago, I, I, I didn't
know anything. I thought, crikey, I need to get
some court experience. All right.
So I then went on to a planning forum.
I'm, I'm going to get to your point in a minute, but I have to
give you a bit of back story. So then I went on to a planning
forum and started talking about these topics on the planning
forum. And I said, you don't need
planning permission. And this planning forum was
populated by professionals in the planning field, solicitors
and and planning advisors and farmers and small holders.
So it's a wide select a wide selection of society.
So when I went on there and explained to them, you don't
need planning permission, the whole forum erupted.
And I was able to answer all the questions in a in a common
sensical way. And I soon started attracting
like I would then have farmers come to me saying, Clive, I'm in
court on Wednesday, can you come and help me?
So then I would go and help these farmers and I went all
around Britain doing that. I for, for a few years.
I still do it now occasionally. So, but back then I, because I
knew I needed court experience. So I thought, right, I'll use
the council didn't want to take me to court.
So I thought I'll use other people's cases to gain my court
experience because that was an area I needed to get experience
in. So that's what I did.
I went, went all around Britain, Cumbria, down to Cornwall.
And to your point, whilst I was doing that, a mutual friend
contacted me from the guy who built a castle behind hay bells
down in Red Hill, down in Surrey.
You may remember it was a very, it was the biggest planning case
in the in United Kingdom at the time.
A guy called Mr Fiddler, Mr Robert Fiddler built a castle.
That's right. He built a castle, hid it behind
hay bells and then anyway ended up in the High Court in London.
And so turns out we had a mutual friend who contacted me and Rob
wanted me to keep him out of prison because he had a
committal hearing at the High Court in London.
So Rob contacted me said, can you keep me out of prison?
I said, we'll give it a go. We went to court.
It's it's well documented, the BBC were there.
It was a very, very high profile case.
And at the end friends of mine said to me, how will, how will
we know if you're successful, Clive?
I said if Rob Fiddler walks out with me on the court steps after
after this case then it's a success.
I don't care what the BBC say. And and sure enough, Rob, Rob
was with me on the on the court steps afterwards.
So they didn't send. Him to gaol, but they did pull
his castle down, yes. Yeah.
They they made him take his castle down.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. OK, that's that's kind of a win,
but yeah, he's well. He's well.
I. Got called.
I got called in to keep him out of prison because he had a
committal. Oh, well, that's good, yeah.
Reigating bans. Did Reigate and bans did had a
committal hearing so it was tear it up and be sent down.
But we kept them out of the at the jewels of the Yeah, at the
dragon is it? I mean, how, how, what did you
use to to stop him from going into court to prison?
Well, we. Used a couple of tactics, some
of which are things that we've explained here and I explained
on my website. Another, another means was
because we had evidence that Reigate and Bankstead cast
council use blackmail in that case.
So I so we opened up a a case for blackmail that morning.
I think it might have been that morning, I can't remember, that
was a long time ago, but we opened up a case for blackmail
against the council, the council solicitor, the council
solicitor. I don't want to get, I don't
want to open up a massive can of worms.
And but the council solicitor blackmailed, there was blackmail
and we had evidence of it. This is not just we, we had
evidence of it. So we opened up a case for
blackmail in the High Court and then we made the judge aware of
that. So a judge bearing in mind, so
this judge in, in Rob's case had Rob and the council in front of
him and we, and that the same sign now that judge has also got
a case in front, not in front of him.
I, I might add a case that had been opened, but we let him know
there's a case for blackmail have been opened against the
council. So the judge in this case has
knowledge of the fact that if he sends Rob down, that could be an
unsafe conviction because there's a case in the High Court
now for blackmail against the very council that are trying to
get Rob sent down, right? Yeah.
So this is, I mean, The thing is that it's all so complicated
because I mean, what would you say to, to a lot of, there's a
lot of people out there who are, are are, you know, looking at
this in, in different ways We've got and they all argue.
What would you say? Why would you say your your
system is is is is working and there's possibly isn't?
Or do you not look at anybody else's work?
I don't. Tend to look at anyone else's
work, Sandy. I'm obviously aware of the other
arguments that are right there. So so again, it works because
it's not my system. That's why it works.
It works because it's not Clive Edwards's system.
It works because that's the very foundations, the pillars of what
the United Kingdom is built upon the king himself Don's two
crimes. The Bible states that the powers
that be are ordained of God. So these things are the
fundamental principles that govern the Commonwealth
countries and I would argue the countries of the world, but
certainly the Commonwealth countries.
And and. All of the Acts of Parliament,
all of the Acts of Parliament talk about God and talk of
Lord's spiritual Lord's common. Now there there's a the so I'll
also mention another act of Parliament called the Confession
of Faith Ratification Act 1560. Now that act of Parliament
states that the Bible's the infallible truth and the Bible
states not to subject yourself to a king, an earthly king.
So we've clearly got 2 systems evidence just from the fact that
the legal system says God and the Bible are the truth and the
and God and the Bible says don't, don't submit yourself to
that system. So.
It's really down to Do you believe in God or are you
secular? Because there's, that's massive.
That's that's huge, Sandy. Yeah.
Because, listen, I was going to come on today and and the
question I was going to pose to your audience is do you believe
in freedom? What does freedom mean to your
audience? Do they believe they're free?
Now, I would struggle to believe that many of them would put
their hand up and say, yes, I'm free.
Certainly not, not in these times.
We're we're we're under now. I've freed myself from the
state. Now that's a bold statement to
make, but that's true. I mean, what's the definition of
freedom? I don't know what the definition
is, but I'll tell you what it looks like.
I've built a farm without asking the government for permission to
do so. That means I'm completely free
of their jurisdiction. None of their taxes apply to me.
Obviously, we all pay taxes in some way.
When I go and fill the car up at a petrol station, I'm paying
VAT. You can't escape some.
But I don't pay income tax. I don't pay any of these tax
says in the Bible it's unlawful to pay tax.
So I've removed myself from the jurisdiction.
So I would I'm free. This says in the Bible that
Jesus yoke is a light yoke. So you're right to point out the
fact. Yeah, I feel sorry for atheists
because they can never attain freedom and they can't.
It's impossible. They're always be on demand.
This this. This, I mean, this, this kind of
story of the, the duality that we're living in is bringing a
lot of people back to what, what are my core beliefs?
You know, when you've got a corrupt system and you've got,
you know, the, the, the, the world actually descending into
chaos, people are beginning to, to question what, you know, who
is in charge, what, what is there a battle going on between,
you know, a fundamental good and evil.
And I, I think a lot of people are seeing that.
So your work often connects the Scripture and the spiritual law
to earthly governance. Do you see natural law as
literally divine, an expression of, of God's order?
If so, how does that challenge the secular legal system?
Then how does so Sandy? I'm I'm just an ordinary guy,
OK? Like I, I say I'm, I'm a
Carpenter by trade and for me like A + B has to equal C or I
often make the joke. Obviously in carpentry terms, if
you're cutting rafters, it's a ^2 + b ^2 = C ^2.
But so listen, natural law that's that doesn't mean
anything to me. I can't get what where can I go
and evidence it? I need evidence to free myself
from this day. I need to point at fact.
I need to point at their paperwork and rules that they
accept to be true evidence. I need to show, I need to show
the council evidence. So natural law is means nothing
to me, not to me. So, but I'll tell you there's an
act of Parliament, as I've said, that says the Bible is the
infallible truth. So I went, no, I wouldn't have
gone so far. As I say, I was an atheist.
That would have been a hard line that I wouldn't have crossed.
But like, don't talk to me about the Bible 15 years ago.
I wasn't interested, but but my enemies, the state say that that
book's true. So I thought I'd best go and
have a look at it. So when when I talk about God
and God and and God's law and that doctrine of the lawful
doctrine, I talk about what the Bible talks about.
And now, because I can go there, just like you can go to an act
of Parliament and quote Section 2 clause, AI can go to Job 3222
and quote that and they understand it.
They've authorised the version of the Bible called the King
James Version 1611. The Crown has said if you want
to talk to us about the Bible you can use that one.
So I did, and when I started quoting that book at that
council, they ran a mile. That's really interesting.
Now which council was that? That was Mendip in those days,
was it? Yeah, it was.
Yeah, yeah. And of course since then I've, I
mean, I've learnt a heck of a lot since my early days of
Mendip. And since then I've, I've, I've
helped people now because listen, if you get these
arguments right, you don't need to go to court.
They won't take me to court. I mean, I've asked them and I
know why they won't take me to court because I'm one of the
people and a judge is judged for God and it's punishment enough
for a judge that he's, he's judged by God.
Why on earth would they want one of gods under in his courtroom
sat under a, a Crest that says God and my right.
All these judges in the crown courts sit under a Crest with a
lion and a Unicorn. It says Duet Montouat is French
and it means God and my right. So gods are not gods in the
courtrooms. Right.
So, so they're using they're they're using this to to really
lure people into their jurisdiction in a way or, or is
it that they, they, I'm, I'm trying to work it out.
Really. How?
Yeah, I've noticed that an awful lot of people who are doing this
common law work do end up in courts and they fail because
they're not. I don't know if you.
Yeah, I don't know if you're confused in what I do with
common law because I've written an article called the Common
Common Law Trap for Commoners, where I where I denounce common
law because the clue's in the title, common law is for the
commoners and commoners are subject to the king.
The Bible is what's known as the royal law.
So I follow the royal law where you're not even allowed to tell
a lie. And the commoners, the subjects
of King Charles, they're under common law in the Commonwealth.
So it's not common law, it's God's law I follow.
God, yeah, The royal law, that's what I follow.
Absolutely. Yeah.
OK. And so I mean, I mean, could,
could argue that you know, is, is your, is it natural law or is
is it natural law or well, you what?
Sandy, what You tell me, what does natural law mean?
You tell me, what does that mean?
Well, it's the law. Law of nature of God's creation
can I what? Section.
What section can I go and quote to keep the council off my back
when they want to bulldoze my farm?
Can I, can you give me a section?
Can you give me a, do you know what I mean?
Do you see my point? That's why I don't.
I don't know what natural law means, but I know what I know
what the Bible is. I know that's God's word.
I know that's his instruction of how mankind should live their
life and how they should be on this earth.
So I go there and quote that because I can.
Natural law to me. I don't know what that means.
OK, and and. Natural law.
If you get 10 people in a room, natural law might mean 10
different things to those 10 different people.
But the Bible means the same thing to the the Bible is an
infallible truth. Right.
This is, I mean, I, I find this fascinating because all your
critics come from and that there have been, I mean, you did a, a,
an interview with lovely Rachel the other day.
And I've seen the, the barrage of, you know, from, from people
like, I don't know, people that have said this is, you know,
that, that, you know, you're things like the, the people act
governs the right to vote and all this kind of thing.
So how would you stand up to people that are doing the whole
natural law or common law? Because you've got different
factions, you've got the straw, the freeman on the land.
That's common law, isn't it? And that always fails, I
believe. So I can't.
Speak to what others are doing. I can only speak to what I've
done. So what I've done is built a
farm. I've wrote a letter to the head
of Mendit District Council, told him beforehand that I was going
to do so. They sent the police an
enforcement round for a few years.
We've had a chat. They sent a planning law expert
to have a meeting with me. We had a chat.
They went away and I'm still building my farm.
So these people, these people talking about other thing I
mean, and I can evidence it. My whole website is evidence
based. So I've looked at your.
Website it is, it is amazing. And I think what we've got to
really drill it down to is is you that you you're saying you
have a choice. You can either be in that system
or you can be in in this system. And this system you're free.
In this system you're not free. Yeah, yeah.
But one thing. I've never said I've never said
it's. It's easy, no?
I've. Never said it's easy, but it can
be done. Now I would say that because
look, when I brought these discussions to Mendit District
Council, I'm not sure they've ever had any one of the people
come forward before and make the arguments that I've made.
I don't know for sure, but from their reaction, I think they, I
don't think that they've had these discussions before and
this argument put to them, but they did go away.
So yeah, I mean, I would say like the proofs in the pudding,
I would say I had to keep myself out of prison because it was in
AI had 9 enforcement officers, 9 planning enforcement notices
against me and each one's an indictable offence.
So that means each one, if they beat you on one or two, that
means I've still got 6-7 or eight still to go and each one
can send you to prison. So it's a very serious situation
that I was in, but I managed to navigate my way through it using
the Bible and using the some of the things that I talk about on
my website. And so, yeah, I, I don't like, I
say, it's not my system. It's the system that King
Charles advocates. And it's a system that the
legislation the UK Acts of Parliament point to and they
defer to. So it's the system that
society's itself is built upon. So what are you saying that?
Sorry, I missed that Prince. Prince Charles?
You advocate his system or you don't?
No, sorry, I said King. Charles advocates that the
Bible's the infallible truth. He.
He has a. Wears a crown of office, the
Saint Edward's crown, that's reflects the jurisdiction of
God. And so I I just aligned myself
with the highest position at law that I could be in, that being
one of God's people under the doctrines of the Bible.
So the. Let's just go through at the
coronation, he went, is it St Edmund or Saint Saint Edward's
Crown? It's the Saint Edward.
'S crown, yeah, yeah. What?
Why does he don't?
Because he that's the conduit to God.
Is it? It's the.
It's called the. Crown.
It's known as the Crown of God. Yeah, right.
So the the other. Crown is the Imperial crown and
Imperial. Imperial means Roman.
Yeah, and. That's the.
That's the crown of state. So is that?
So that your People's Choice, it's your theme of whose God or
the Roman statutory level. Yeah, that's why.
All these main states of office swear oaths.
Oaths are to a deity, to something higher than mankind,
Yeah. So all of these.
Main states of office swear oaths, and the oaths again point
to something higher than mankind, right?
Well, it's. I mean, it, it, it's a, an
absolute, you know, this is, this is really getting to the
nitty gritty of it. Because what I love about you is
that you, you, you actually, you're not listening to, to all
the other noise. You're just doing your thing and
it's working. And yeah, I couldn't listen to.
The other noise, Sandy, because no one else is going to help me
if I go to prison. I could only rely on.
That's what I mean when I say that's why it's so important to
me. Evidence is is key.
If you don't have evidence, you don't have an argument.
So for me, I had to. I was like, I was like
blindfolded in the dark and I was feeling around like, what on
earth is this system of law and governance?
So when I find the hard bit of evidence I had, I hung on to it
and I was able to. What do you make of the, the
whole birth certificate thing? You know, when you're born?
Because that again, is, is, is a bit free man on the land, isn't
it? The the whole, the whole your
birth certificate makes you, you know, a legal fiction sort of
thing. Do you believe?
Do you Do you go along with that?
The birth certificate, well, the birth certificate for a start,
is not called a birth certificate.
It's called a certified copy of an entry.
So that's what the document itself says.
And on the bottom of that document it says warning not to
be used as evidence of identity. That's true it.
Says that on your birth certificate, doesn't it?
Yeah, so. So that name on that certificate
is evidence of a of a what's known as a legal name.
But that legal name is clearly not your identity.
It's not your name because it says on the bottom not don't use
it as your identity. And a name is a, a key
identifier. So it, it evidences, yeah, a
legal construct, a legal, it's evidence of a title that allows
you to do business in the United Kingdom.
Because we're to be in, like Jesus said, you're to be in the
world, but not of the world, right.
So as one of the people we still have to interact with the world,
with the secular you, you know, you still have, you know,
there's a bank account. You, you need a, a bank account
in today's society. So to get a bank account, you'll
need a birth certificate. And that's all that is.
It's a, it's a tool to enable God's people to use a bank
account. But the bank account is not my
bank account. And, and the name on the birth
certificate is not my, not my name.
It says so on their own document, so to a degree.
You have to play that in order to to to actually function.
You have to use that system a little bit.
Yeah, to be in the world. But not of it, as Jesus said.
Yeah. And Mary and Joseph.
Mary and Joseph took Jesus to be taxed.
It says in the Bible to be taxed.
And if you look at the Strong's Concordance of the word taxed,
it's registered. So even Jesus was registered.
He was wasn't. He because they went they went
miles to to do it, didn't they? Yes, so there you go.
That's Roman. That's.
Roman law, yeah, that's. Exactly.
Imperial crane. Roman crane.
Yeah, the humans were. At it then 2000 years over 2000
years ago and they haven't stopped.
No, very true. Yeah, yeah.
You know, if, for instance, you you opt out of statutory law,
you know, could it could it be that if everyone did this, would
it result in chaos? I mean, you do envision A moral
and orderly society operating under God's law, because this is
all very individualistic. So if everyone did this
individually, would, you know, would it operate under God's law
without any kind of centralised government?
How would this work in your, in your imagined wonderful utopia
of everyone following this? How would it be?
What would it look like? Yeah.
It's not my imagined utopia, it's what God commands.
Sorry, yes. So.
It's not individualistic because I'm just following Christ and
the word of God. Yeah.
So we're. Called to be members of the body
of Christ, not members of the body of Parliament.
Yeah. So I'm a.
Member of the body of Christ. So if you leave the, the world,
the secular world, which we've already said is immoral, lacks
ethics and is godless, I'll take the other one, thanks.
I'll take the godly one with Christ as at the helm rather
than Keir Starmer. I, I think I know where my where
my moralities like lay, if you know what I mean.
So, yeah. And, and it's not follow, the
only one you've got to follow is Christ.
So it's not an individualistic thing.
It's already been done for us just and, and it's called the
royal law. So you can abide by the common
law with the commoners where you can lie, cheat, and all of that
involved in secular life, which is immoral and lacking in
ethics. Or you can walk back to your
father under the moral, under the royal law.
And obviously there you're not allowed to tell lies, cheat or
steal. And but the yoke is lighter, as
Jesus said. Yeah.
Do you know there's so much about this that that absolutely
I understand and I I realise and I mean, do you think it is down
to. I mean, certainly looking at
some of the critics that that have gone against you this only
this morning. I just found this whole sort of
thing and I thought is it because I people don't like you
talking about God and Jesus do they is it is that do you think
it's it's their innate kind of we're not having this.
This is yeah, I it. May may be Sandy, that may be
something in that. And there's also that tall poppy
syndrome thing, isn't it? I, I don't know.
I've only come on the Internet in the last two years because I
could see where think that things were getting extremely
serious. Now I consider myself free of
the state. So I'm sat in my little farm in
Somerset looking at the news and looking at everything that's
going on, thinking, well, I've got some of these answers that
some of these citizens might need to hear.
So I thought I'll I'll stick my head above the parapet, I'll
shout. I'll shout as loud as I can for
as long as I can. And that's why I'm, that's why
I'm on the Internet now. And I'm quite happy to go back
to my farm in Somerset and, and, and, but I don't believe I'm
cool to do that. I believe now is the time.
I believe now is the time for people to stand up.
And yeah, it takes a certain character to be able to do that.
And I'm not really worried about the common.
I'm not really worried about commentators who have not, have
got no skin in the game. I risk my freedom.
And a lot of these common, a lot of these commentators are
anonymous. Well, I'm not anonymous and I've
risked everything. Yeah.
Yeah, No, I, I, I totally get where you're coming from.
And I respect your, your conviction and, and, and your
faith and everything. I absolutely 100% respect that.
And I think it, it's difficult when you've got, you have got a
lot of people saying a lot of conflicting things.
And I've seen people, you know, as I said, going in, going into
their jurisdiction into, into the secular courts and losing.
And you won't even step into that.
You you're just kind of saying, right, I'm, I'm doing this.
I'm doing the other thing. Yeah.
A lot of strength and courage to do that.
Yeah. Well, I I thought.
I was going to have to go to court.
I thought that was part of the process where you may have to go
before a secular judge that judges for God and you get
judged in this realm by a, by an earthly judge.
But as it's turned out, because I mean, I've, I've come to
understand this system extremely well to A to a very good degree,
where I whereby I like a second evidence everything I talk
about. So they don't even want me in
their courts anymore. That's how that's the situation
I'm at now. I'm not saying I'm, I don't
know. I may at some point I may have
to go to court. I don't know, but it doesn't
concern me. I'm not worried about it because
I understand how the how the law works.
And if one of those judges are sat under an emblem that says
God am my right. And I know that that judge in
front of me as there's a, there's a maximum of law that
says it's punishment enough for a judge to know that he's judged
by God, then I know his soul's on the line when he's talking to
one of gods. Is he is he really going to harm
one of gods? I think it's Matthew 18-6 that
says, don't you offend one of my little ones or be or be better
for you. If you had a millstone around
your neck and you're at the bottom of the sea now, a judge,
a judge understands the system extremely well and he will
understand that quote very well. So why on earth, if I was a
judge, I would not want one of the people who understood how
the system works to this degree in front of me, risking my soul
for the for the next part of our journey.
This earthly realm means this is irrelevant.
It's what we do here that reflects as we go on.
In my opinion anyway. No, no, no.
I. I, I kind of get that
completely. You know, it's, it's, this is a,
this has been a fantastic conversation.
I mean, we've what, because we're, we're drawing to an hour
and we, we can just go over a little bit.
But what if you've got anything now that you want to say to the
UK column audience here? What would it be your final sort
of message really that that you'd like to talk about?
Thank you, Sandy. Yeah, firstly, I'd like to thank
you for inviting me on and, and pressing and and pressing the
questions as you have done and as you should do because people
you, you should never take anyone's word for anything.
You should go and research it yourself.
And, and if people want do want to look further.
I've put a lot of this together in one place at my website,
which. But So what I would say is what
I talk about this legal system, the system is not commonly
understood, Sandy. It's frighteningly it's, it's
frightens me how how little the citizenry understand about how
they are governed. And So what I would say is,
look, we're we're entering into very serious times, digital ID
when you know full well I've seen your work, I know what you
talk about, it's serious. We know what the farmers are
going through. We know what the government are
trying to do to the farmers and the food supply it we're in
serious, serious times. That's why I've come out of the
out of the woodwork and started explaining this stuff.
It's not something I'm terribly comfortable with.
I'm quite a private guy. But I feel these times it
requires people to stand up and and be counted.
And well, if I if what I talk about, and if my example can
help a few a few citizens become people once more, than that'll
do me. That's fantastic.
So where can we find you and how do you know how do obviously
you've got visit capillarywave.com, isn't it?
That's right, that's my. Website Sandy I'm on YouTube.
Clive Edwards walk in the talk. If you search Clive Edwards on
on YouTube, you'll see a picture similar to this sat in my studio
which AKA campervan. So yeah, you'll find me on
YouTube and I'm not too hard to find.
No, I think. That's brilliant.
And what I love about you, Clive, is that you're actually
very humble. You, you know, it's, it's all
about, you know, you you're doing God's work.
You're not doing, you know, it's not about you.
It's about something higher. And so, yeah, it's very kind of
you to say. So, Sandy, Yeah.
It's not about me. Christ has done all the hard
work. He's done it.
He's done the hard work. All you have to do is follow
him. Don't follow me.
I'm infallible. He wasn't.
Brilliant.
Well, listen, I, I just want to say thank you.
I don't know whether there's anything else that, that you
want to, to throw in. I think you've explained it
brilliantly, but if there is something, say so now because
we've still got a couple of minutes if you want to.
No, I think. I think, I think we've covered
it pretty well, Sandy. Yeah.
I mean, I'm always happy to come back to Part 2 another time.
If your audience so desires I'd be, I'd be more than happy to do
so. Lovely.
Well. Bless you.
Thanks so much, Clive. It's been absolutely fascinating
speaking. I could talk to you for hours,
actually. Well, we can.
Off off camera if you like and it's.
Yeah, and I'm still working my way through your website because
there's a massive amount on that website to go through.
And I would advise our viewers to go go to capillarywave.com,
look at it and make your own minds up.
And yeah, it certainly resonates with me.
It may not with sons, we're all different, but yeah.
Thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure.
Thank you. Sandy, likewise, I've thoroughly
enjoyed it. Thank you.