1 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:41,560 None. It's been a while, Charles. 2 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:45,800 Mike, I was away in China. Charles, before that, you were 3 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:48,880 away. And here we are, finally 4 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:51,880 together. After what feels like months. 5 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:56,720 Finally we got back. Yeah, it is, isn't it? 6 00:00:57,360 --> 00:00:58,320 Yeah. I still sound. 7 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,120 Yeah, I still sound a bit sick. So I'm going to talk as little 8 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:02,920 as possible. Yeah, we should probably make it 9 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:04,480 clear that's not why you've been away. 10 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:07,760 It hasn't been hasn't been an illness that's kept you from the 11 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:11,640 airwaves. But I think that chatting about 12 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:16,000 the trip to China is a is a very good sort of undercurrent 13 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:19,680 because Mike, you and I were chatting a little bit about how 14 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:25,360 people perceive not just China, I suppose, but you know, 15 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:29,560 countries that tend to get targeted by sort of Western sort 16 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:32,600 of Intel interests. MI 6 has had a very big interest 17 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:38,440 in in in creating a false narrative, particularly about 18 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:41,200 the Xinjiang province. And I'm trying to think where to 19 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:45,200 start. But basically my starting point 20 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:47,560 is the following. It doesn't matter that that 21 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:49,480 you've been to China, Mike. It doesn't matter that I've been 22 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:52,840 to China because I still have conversations with people saying 23 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,320 to me, it doesn't. It doesn't matter. 24 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,480 They just made you see what what they wanted you to see. 25 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:00,800 Yeah. What? 26 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,880 Right. Well, that's, that's just I'll 27 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:08,320 just start with my usual caveat and that was that I went there 28 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:11,880 as a tourist. So I'm sure I only saw certain 29 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:15,080 things Germ right. So now I'm going to say, 30 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:19,960 however, that I did speak to quite a lot of people that were 31 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:22,760 that are obviously local to the places that I was at. 32 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:26,040 I, I absolutely went out of my way to do that. 33 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:31,120 And OK, the cynics might say, well, these guys aren't going to 34 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:33,680 speak out because they're scared of their government or whatever 35 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,320 it is. Perhaps maybe we see a bit of 36 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:39,320 that in this country as well. And so maybe we shouldn't be so 37 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:44,640 smug about about any of that. I'm going to say that that I 38 00:02:44,640 --> 00:02:50,160 think there was only one instance where I was really saw 39 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:54,240 something which was different, shall we say, to to the way that 40 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:59,320 that the average British person or American might behave in the 41 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:05,560 presence of the authorities. And that was that that at the 42 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:10,280 Shaolin Temple there was AI assume a police helicopter came 43 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:13,880 over the top. And I think it was only the 44 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:16,520 Western tourists and there were very few of us there that that 45 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:18,200 looked up everybody else looked down. 46 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:22,000 Now that that might give an indication about people's views 47 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:26,520 of of the authorities and so on. But that's on one side of the 48 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:27,800 discussion. On the other side of the 49 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:33,960 discussion is that everybody was very comfortable to be out and 50 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:35,720 about at any time of the day or night. 51 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:40,840 There was no St crime. It was absolutely a, a wonderful 52 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:46,080 environment to be in and and everybody was immensely friendly 53 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:50,760 and, and welcoming as well. So, so, you know, take that, 54 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:53,440 take that as it is. It's it, that is my impression 55 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:57,920 of the place you, on the other hand, were in, you know, really 56 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:00,280 the the Wilds is where you were in Xinjiang. 57 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:03,880 And my point about Xinjiang is, and again, having not been 58 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:12,120 there, but, but realising what what that situation has been, it 59 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,440 it does. I do find it ironic that the 60 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:20,160 average British person is prepared to accept the narrative 61 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:23,000 of the British government about Xinjiang, about the oppression 62 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:29,040 of Uyghur Muslims at the same time that they're all from the 63 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:31,960 same kind of people that they're all marching with Tommy Robinson 64 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:34,120 against the Muslim community in the United Kingdom. 65 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:39,400 I find this really ironic to say the least, because, you know, 66 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:45,240 the fact of the matter is that Xinjiang has been on the 67 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:47,960 receiving end of the same kind of tack. 68 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:51,800 Ferry thought that certain parts of the Middle East have been, 69 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:54,440 that certain mosques in the United Kingdom have been. 70 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:59,480 And this has been a, a very manipulative situation by 71 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:02,840 Western powers, by MI 6 and so on and CIA and so on. 72 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:07,040 Because because obviously there is the potential to stoke 73 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:10,120 contention on the border with neighbouring countries. 74 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:14,880 And, and this is, this is typical Western divide and 75 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:19,120 conquer tactics. So, so China has reacted to an 76 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:26,000 insurgency effectively in that part of the world and they've 77 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:29,760 reacted in a particular way. And they would argue that that 78 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:36,040 has been about giving people that might be in susceptible to 79 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:39,720 radicalization, give them the opportunity to to be part of 80 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:42,920 society and the opportunity to, to learn skills and to, to get 81 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:45,400 jobs and these kinds of things and actually be productive 82 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:48,040 members of society rather than getting involved with 83 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:51,040 radicalization and, and insurgency and so on. 84 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:55,300 The West portrays that as being concentration camps and re 85 00:05:55,300 --> 00:05:56,840 education and all this kind of stuff. 86 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:01,880 And so, you know, you take your, you take your poison as well. 87 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:03,800 You decide which of those two narratives you're going to 88 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:06,040 accept. But, but I personally accept 89 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:09,600 that I'm more likely to accept the Chinese narrative on this 90 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:13,960 because the people that have been radicalised in that region, 91 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:18,280 many of them have then turned up, for example, in Syria to 92 00:06:18,280 --> 00:06:22,840 fight on the side of the of the insurgents there that that 93 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:26,240 Britain and the United States has backed so hard since 2011, 94 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:29,160 right. So, so you can start to see 95 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:31,800 that, that, that there are, there are common features 96 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:36,920 between what was going on in Xinjiang and remember the, the, 97 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:44,160 the, the radicalised Uyghurs managed to pull off a, a, an act 98 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:48,080 of what the Chinese certainly would call terrorism in 99 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:50,440 Tiananmen Square. So, so you know, it wasn't that 100 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:54,120 this was just being restricted to the Xinjiang province 101 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:56,760 province itself. This is something that, that 102 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:58,840 they managed to, to spread across China. 103 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:05,440 So inevitably the Chinese authorities reacted to that, but 104 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:08,160 the people that complain about that then complain that the 105 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:10,120 British authorities aren't reacting here. 106 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:12,360 So you know which which way do you want it? 107 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:17,360 But that's the thing, Mike, people don't quite understand 108 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:21,280 historical context. I mean, what you just did now is 109 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:25,200 what you would expect the average person to at least know, 110 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:30,240 but they don't take the time just to figure out why. 111 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:32,680 You know, some of these things have been happening. 112 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:36,960 I think it was 2018 where there was an MI 6 backed insurgency in 113 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:39,920 the province of Xinjiang. Now listen, I've I've now 114 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:42,120 travelled Xinjiang fairly extensively. 115 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:46,920 I think I visited I think 7 cities right against the border. 116 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:51,200 I think Kashgar is one of the closest cities to, to the 117 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:57,760 Pakistan or Afghanistan border. And only when you there, when 118 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:02,440 you see the military and when you see how different the 119 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:08,040 cultures are and you realise that there's a long history here 120 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:13,120 of, of insurgency, of instability, only then do you 121 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:17,840 start understanding why the Chinese government is trying to 122 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:22,560 protect its sovereignty. And for the last few years, all 123 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:25,680 we've been hearing from people, unquote, unquote outsiders. 124 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:27,480 We've got to fight for sovereignty. 125 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:29,800 Well, this is precisely what the Chinese government has been 126 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:36,320 doing. Yeah, Look, I, I, I understand 127 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:40,400 that from you basically because I, I have no familiarity with 128 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:45,480 the region at all that, that it is quite a militarised place to 129 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:47,680 be. I of course grew up in a 130 00:08:47,680 --> 00:08:52,400 militarised place. So, so, you know, it was normal 131 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:57,400 for for me to be mixing with people in black uniforms or in 132 00:08:57,400 --> 00:08:58,960 green uniforms with machine guns. 133 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:00,720 This was just, this was just normal. 134 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:06,760 And so maybe, maybe it's had a bigger impact on, on use than it 135 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:08,840 might have had on, on me if, if I'd been there. 136 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:17,240 But the, you know, I think again, people, I mean, you're 137 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:21,400 right, people are not, well, let's let's deal with the issue 138 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,440 of people understanding the historical context. 139 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:28,000 Of course, the vast majority of people are only receiving any 140 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:33,440 information about this, any of these regions from the BBC or 141 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:36,720 other mainstream media. And most people aren't 142 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:40,480 interested enough to actually try to find out for themselves. 143 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:43,280 So, so that's part of the problem. 144 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,200 But but it's, it's for me, the, the real thing that I find 145 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:50,280 difficult about the whole situation is that is it whenever 146 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:54,120 there's a sort of a predisposition against a 147 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:58,680 pertinent particular ethnic group or national nationality or 148 00:09:58,680 --> 00:10:03,520 whatever, there's a willingness to accept government narratives 149 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:07,960 without, without criticism or without any kind of scepticism. 150 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:11,320 And yet on so many other narratives, when it suits 151 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:13,480 people, they are completely sceptical. 152 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:17,280 And I think, I think this is this is the real thing that that 153 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,440 needs to be addressed amongst Westerners. 154 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:26,040 And the fact that Westerners don't ever assume or consider 155 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:29,840 that that anybody in the East or in the Middle East or in South 156 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:33,280 America or in Africa may have a completely different perspective 157 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:36,360 on the world than they do. And so they're always looking at 158 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:38,760 these three things through a Western lens. 159 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:42,120 And that, that, I think is really problematic and in fact 160 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:43,800 even a little bit arrogant perhaps. 161 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,480 Charles, I know that you've not been to China, but I mean, the 162 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:54,240 principle is the same, right? Like if you go to different 163 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:59,040 countries, people like to say things like, well, you should go 164 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:00,920 there. And then you say, OK, fine, I'm 165 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:02,120 going to do that. I'm going to go there. 166 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:03,960 Then you go there and they say no, no, no. 167 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:05,280 But you can't go there as a tourist. 168 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:06,840 It's not long enough. You've got to live there for one 169 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:08,440 year. OK, well, I can't live there for 170 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:10,000 one year. So the best I can do is talk to 171 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:11,920 somebody who lives there. No, but you can't talk to 172 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:14,600 somebody who lives there because because they're scared of the 173 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:16,680 government. And So what happens is you, you 174 00:11:16,680 --> 00:11:22,120 have this perpetual loop of never actually doing anything 175 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,360 other than kicking the can down the road and and basically 176 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:31,280 maintaining the status quo. Well, if we just put China to 177 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:34,880 one side for a second, I would I would suggest that the majority 178 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:37,240 of people who live in the United Kingdom have absolutely no idea 179 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:38,600 what's going on in the United Kingdom. 180 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:42,000 So it can't really be such a great surprise that there's a 181 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,760 little bit of discrepancy as to what exactly is always been 182 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:46,800 going on in China. And let's not forget, as you've 183 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:48,760 pointed out that China is absolutely vast. 184 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:52,920 And so to imagine that you could rub up along alongside one 185 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:56,080 person in China and they would give you chapter and verse and 186 00:11:56,080 --> 00:12:00,680 on what's really happening is frankly ludicrous history. 187 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:05,040 Again, there are multiple versions of absolutely every 188 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:07,720 single event, action and movement in history. 189 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:10,880 So how do we really draw much of A conclusion from that? 190 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:16,200 I don't mean to just cast doubt on on absolutely everything. 191 00:12:17,560 --> 00:12:20,360 I mean, in fact, I have been to China, but but Benny very 192 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:25,600 briefly and only to Beijing. And I wouldn't at all imagine 193 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:28,040 that that would be a place that I would get to know over a 194 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:29,640 period of time. I think the other thing the the 195 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:33,200 words that come come to mind were written in fact about 196 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:38,200 Africa, but by Isaac Denison writing is Karen Blixen in Out 197 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:38,880 of Africa. OK. 198 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:42,480 She wrote it quite a lot, quite a lot of years after the event. 199 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:47,120 But I read it at a time when I was working in the very country 200 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:50,000 that she had been writing about, in fact, at exactly the place 201 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:52,480 where she was living. And she made a very interesting 202 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:56,760 remark about how as a OK, she was making the distinction 203 00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:01,600 between Europeans and Africans. Nothing to do with the, the, you 204 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,040 know, there's no sort of racial connotation here. 205 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:09,280 But, but quite simply, people who inhabited a particular area 206 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:13,640 and did things in a particular way would never, ever yield the 207 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:17,720 absolute truth of everything to, in this instance, the European. 208 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:20,840 So and I, and I absolutely identified with this. 209 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:26,480 I remember I I worked in a headquarters where I was the 210 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:33,080 only non African and we all worked very well together and 211 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:39,320 stuff happened or didn't happen. And often I could never ever get 212 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:43,320 to the bottom of why something had happened or had not 213 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:45,480 happened. And there was, when I say the 214 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:47,320 truth, I don't mean there was any dishonesty. 215 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,760 I mean that there was a, there's a sort of shielding mechanism 216 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:54,520 and whether it's intentional, whether it's cultural, whatever 217 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:59,920 it is to come into somewhere, somewhere else in the world that 218 00:13:59,920 --> 00:14:02,280 you're not familiar with that does have, you know, let's face 219 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:06,320 it, geography alone, I think does account for quite 220 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:10,440 substantial changes. I'm, I'm not really able to back 221 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:12,960 this up with anything other than anecdotal evidence, but I mean, 222 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,720 generally speaking, as you progress further away from a 223 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,280 place, the culture becomes more different roughly. 224 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:21,480 So I mean, bearing in mind China is quite far from the United 225 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:25,320 Kingdom, It's, it's an easy, you know, it's an easy one to use as 226 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:28,040 an example of, gosh, well, how different and how different 227 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:31,160 because. And I think really the main 228 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:34,120 point that that comes out of this is not really so much 229 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,880 whether whether you have been to China, whether you haven't, 230 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:38,360 whether you've been there as a tourist, whether you've been 231 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:40,800 there as you know, to work or to really explore. 232 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:46,600 Whatever it is, the fact of it is that it is used by the media, 233 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:50,320 by the politicians, by the security services, intelligence 234 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:57,720 agencies, all the rest of it as a tool with which to either 235 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:01,120 suggest this is good or this is bad or we don't want to do that 236 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,600 or we do want to do this. And it just, you know, exactly 237 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:08,560 like Mike says it is. It is funny the the terrific 238 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:10,880 inconsistencies that that that does bring in. 239 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:15,720 I mean, most notably the, the sort of Muslims are bad, except 240 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:23,480 when they're good contradiction. And and also this is now, you 241 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:29,440 know, China in some quarters is being presented as the well, we 242 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,880 don't want to do that with digital ID because look what's 243 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:36,880 happening in China without actually citing any evidence of 244 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:41,840 what is happening in China. So I again, I think we need to 245 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:46,040 be extremely careful of being presented with anywhere as being 246 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:50,680 either good or bad in, you know, and, and I find that as a, as a 247 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:53,560 Brit, you know, I mean, how ridiculous to, to on, let's say 248 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:57,800 digital ID. Oh, well, look, Estonia has done 249 00:15:57,800 --> 00:15:59,840 it, made a real successful, Yeah, but fine, we're not 250 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:02,480 Estonian. And why do we need to or want to 251 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:05,960 be like Estonia? Can't we just be like ourselves 252 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:08,840 and decide and going back to the point about sovereignty, why 253 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:10,560 don't we decide what we want to do? 254 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:14,640 And we can still, we can look at other places, of course, but, 255 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:18,080 but to suggest that we should do it because somebody else's, or 256 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:23,040 in China's case, we shouldn't do it because China's doing it, 257 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:26,520 That's the, I think that's the, that's the trap. 258 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:34,560 And, and so, you know, the more, the more confusion and 259 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:38,120 contradiction that exists surrounding China in a way, the 260 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:41,480 better because it, it, it plays into the hands of those who are 261 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:45,080 trying to manipulate the, the, the stories about the country to 262 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,280 their advantage and, and critically to our disadvantage. 263 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:51,120 Yeah. But I mean, that's the point 264 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:55,400 though. It's, it's, it's about thinking 265 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:59,280 critically about all of these countries, particularly 266 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:03,280 countries that get targeted constantly like China, Russia, 267 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:06,839 Iran. I mean, they they are a list of 268 00:17:06,839 --> 00:17:10,720 countries that that we could name that that are most likely 269 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:14,880 not what we think they are. And, and something as simple as 270 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:20,200 visiting, as Mike pointed out, is not going to give you a full, 271 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:24,280 a full spectrum, you know, of, of analysis, but it's going to 272 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:27,839 give you a keyhole and it's going to give you a keyhole that 273 00:17:27,839 --> 00:17:31,280 you previously didn't have. It's something like, yeah, 274 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:32,920 sorry, Mike. Sorry, Joe, I was just going to, 275 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:35,320 I was just going to say there, you know, that's true. 276 00:17:36,120 --> 00:17:40,920 But but what it can do if you're, if you're honest, is it 277 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:46,840 can at least present people with some semblance of the truth or 278 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:50,000 getting closer to the truth. I mean, just one example, in 279 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,640 Poland, the Polish people are being told at the moment that 280 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:57,640 the sanctions on Russia are unbelievably successful, that 281 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:00,400 people are starving on the streets and so on. 282 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,400 And, and a particular Polish Blogger, can't remember his name 283 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:08,000 off the top of my head, said I'm, I'm not buying this at all. 284 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:13,160 And so he took himself off to Moscow and he had to fly through 285 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:15,320 Istanbul because there's no direct flight, of course, 286 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:19,600 because of sanctions. And he arrived in Moscow and he 287 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:24,000 discovered a city that is absolutely cosmopolitan, that 288 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,360 has a, an underground system that functions, it runs on time 289 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:31,320 that people that he thought, my goodness, what kind of reception 290 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:34,560 am I going to get as a Polish man in, in Moscow? 291 00:18:35,120 --> 00:18:39,960 And he, he just was treated unbelievably welcome, 292 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,320 unbelievable welcome. He any help he needed, he got, 293 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:47,680 he even got people. I mean, people were even paying 294 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:51,600 for stuff for him, for, you know, for something to eat at 295 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:53,440 one point. But just because they were, 296 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:56,040 they, they didn't want him. You know, they wouldn't accept 297 00:18:56,120 --> 00:18:59,840 his payment for, because they invited him to, to come for, for 298 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:01,920 a meal. It was, he had a fantastic time. 299 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:05,360 And he, he started presenting this information on Polish 300 00:19:05,360 --> 00:19:09,880 alternative media and he got absolutely lambasted for it by 301 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:13,320 all kinds of people for, for pursuing a Russian narrative and 302 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:15,480 so on. And, and so, you know, this, 303 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:20,240 this is the type of thing we've got such, we're so propagandised 304 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:25,200 that, that when anybody that's in any way independent says to 305 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:28,520 themselves, right, let's go and find out exactly what's going 306 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:29,800 on. They go to the country, they go 307 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,000 to the place, they talk to the people, they experience what 308 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:35,080 it's like and they come back and they bring that story back. 309 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:39,560 Even then, when the evidence is presented, you, you know, large 310 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:43,240 numbers of, of people on social media are prepared to accept 311 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:47,520 what they're being shown and, and you know, the attacks begin 312 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:48,640 and whether. Those are. 313 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:55,720 That is though, Mike. I think because of course people 314 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:59,800 are are can't be very ideological and they they can 315 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:05,600 they can have sucked in narratives from from. 316 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:11,840 Well funded sources. And so whether whether it's a 317 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:17,600 whether it's the, the, the just Poland is as divided as as other 318 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,760 countries are. I'm quite sure it it is that's I 319 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:22,560 haven't been there in many, many years now. 320 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:26,920 And so I don't know exactly what the lie of the land is there. 321 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:31,880 I certainly remember back in well, early 2000s, two, 1005 or 322 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:36,960 whatever it was, whenever they were planning to, to get into 323 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,640 the European Union and there was the the whole discussion about 324 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:43,120 whether they should join or not. There was some division, but it 325 00:20:43,120 --> 00:20:47,520 was very much majority pro EU. And I suspect that's still the 326 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:49,480 case to some degree. I mean, I think the farming 327 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:52,640 industry in particular has become a bit more anti but but I 328 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:58,680 think in general Polish people are still quite pro the West and 329 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,480 pro EU. And so I think that's probably 330 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:08,480 the main reason. When I was in China, I had a 331 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:12,760 similar conversation, but in reverse where I asked this one 332 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:16,320 Chinese, we are you going to visit South Africa at some 333 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:17,960 point? You know, we've got beautiful 334 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:20,160 safaris and wildlife and all that kind of thing. 335 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,320 And the response was, well, I don't know, it looks a bit 336 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:26,920 scary, you know, Will I be safe now? 337 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,160 That's the same thing. It's precisely the same thing in 338 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:37,800 reverse because yes, there is a crime problem here, but when you 339 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,760 land, are there people just shooting guns like it's a Wild 340 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:42,120 West? No, of course not. 341 00:21:43,120 --> 00:21:47,560 And, and, and you can only figure that out if you just take 342 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:51,560 the time to come and visit. I've not been to the UK, so my 343 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:56,480 entire perception of the UK is based on everything that I've 344 00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:00,840 ever been told and read. And I do intend to change that. 345 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:06,200 But I'm pretty certain that a lot of what I think is also 346 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:12,400 false and, and as you, you know, agreed earlier, Mike, just going 347 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,720 somewhere is certainly superior to not going somewhere. 348 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,720 It's a good it's a start and and more people should do it rather 349 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:20,320 than simply watching videos on YouTube. 350 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:26,760 I would absolutely encourage everybody to go as as many 351 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:30,360 places they as they can, because that's the only way to to to get 352 00:22:30,360 --> 00:22:32,440 a feel for the place. But it, but, you know, it's 353 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:36,920 still, it still sort of comes back to the, to the issue of, of 354 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:41,240 is, is what you're seeing real? And, and I think that if, if all 355 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:47,040 we ever do is, is the sort of tourist centres that then 356 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:51,480 probably it's, it's probably a Hollywood or a, a Disney version 357 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:55,040 of, of, of reality. Certainly living there for a 358 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:57,480 little while will give a better impression, but. 359 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:00,280 So what you're saying? But I think, I think what you 360 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:02,760 did, I think what what I'm saying is I think what you did 361 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:07,200 was, was a cut above what most people get the opportunity to 362 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:08,840 do. Because because you were really, 363 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,440 you know, you were really in the, in the, the real 364 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:15,400 Backcountry, as it were. And, and, and getting to see a 365 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:19,040 bit of the real, certainly more of the real China than than, or 366 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,520 at least that part of China than most people get to see. 367 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,720 What was what you're saying is if I go to the UKI must go and 368 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,240 stay with Charles because he's more in the countryside and he's 369 00:23:28,360 --> 00:23:32,440 outside of the of the of the city centre, no. 370 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:37,680 But Charles, Charles and or in fact anybody in the UK column is 371 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,600 probably going to give you a better, a more accurate 372 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:44,360 impression of the UK than than than if you go and get to the 373 00:23:44,360 --> 00:23:45,720 average tour guide. Let's put that. 374 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:46,760 One. Yes, yes. 375 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,200 Yeah, could be a one way trip coming here, Jeremy, You never 376 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,760 know. Yeah, I mean, I think what I was 377 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:56,160 going to say, OK, it might sound a bit bit trite, but you know, 378 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:58,920 if you're pushed for time, just a tour of the world's airports 379 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:04,200 because I think they give you an incredible insight into how a 380 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,320 country projects compared with how it is. 381 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:12,520 And the say the three obvious examples would be the UK, the 382 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:19,160 United States and Hong Kong. OK, actually I extend that a 383 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:20,760 little bit. The the airport and its 384 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,720 surrounding area, the United Kingdom and the United States 385 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:29,120 project that they are countries where every little detail is 386 00:24:29,120 --> 00:24:33,920 taken care of and progress is is core to, to everything. 387 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,520 We are very civilised. We are very technologically 388 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,080 sound, organised, welcoming, whatever. 389 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:44,040 Right. Well, see what you think after 390 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,600 spending 10 minutes inside Heathrow Airport. 391 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,280 I know I've talked about this before and, and, and people who 392 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,040 have travelled through the airport, my apologies because 393 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:53,920 you will be bored of hearing it again. 394 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:55,720 But Heathrow is held together with string. 395 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:59,840 It is, it is a dreadful, dreadful experience. 396 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:02,880 So I mean, Germ, I forewarn you for when you do come here, be, 397 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,840 be prepared. But but what I mean is, is that 398 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,640 it's absolutely contrary to the way in which this country 399 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,880 projects itself. But also it is very, very 400 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,920 concerned with what they describe as security, which is 401 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,160 in actual fact not anything to do with security. 402 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,600 Because if they really did legitimately think that people 403 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:26,240 were trying to anyway, we wouldn't get distracted by that. 404 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,840 But I mean, the, the sort of security architecture in 405 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:33,120 Heathrow Airport is, is extraordinary, but it is also 406 00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:35,480 terribly inefficient. They are very, very impersonal. 407 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,240 The people that are working in those jobs, it's not a pleasant 408 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:42,120 experience. the United States, I would say it is the same, but 409 00:25:42,120 --> 00:25:45,560 sort of on steroids. You know, you are, you are 410 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,680 treated or at least I haven't been there for a few years, but 411 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:52,200 but last time I went, I was delighted to find that I was 412 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,360 also treated like a terrorist again. 413 00:25:55,360 --> 00:25:58,920 And you know, that persists and then you go outside the airport 414 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,080 and and the whole place is is a ruin. 415 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,480 I mean, going in. So this might exist elsewhere, 416 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:09,400 but certainly travelling in on the on the train into New York 417 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:14,080 is an extraordinary experience. The the the level of vagrancy 418 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,520 of, you know, looking out from the train when you're on the 419 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,960 sort of elevated bit down into the the residential areas there. 420 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,840 It is amazing. It is not in any way like the 421 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,360 image that America projects to the rest of the world going to 422 00:26:28,360 --> 00:26:32,680 Hong Kong, where we are told that, you know, now under 423 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,840 Chinese control. It's a sort of autocratic 424 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,840 surveillance state. Everything works. 425 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,800 You are treated with a great deal of respect and humility. 426 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,160 You are welcomed. You whistle straight through the 427 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:47,400 airport. The doesn't matter what you 428 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,760 choose to do next in terms of on the journey, it all works. 429 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:56,920 So I think there is, you know, there, there is absolutely like, 430 00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:00,120 I mean, like Mike says, I would, I would always encourage people 431 00:27:00,120 --> 00:27:01,880 to go and and this is not an area. 432 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:07,200 Let's let's look at what UK column does, for example, it may 433 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:09,960 not be feasible for us as a small team to go to the place 434 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,320 that we are reporting about. But the point is we will go to 435 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,320 the source document for whatever, whatever it is that 436 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,000 people are talking about, that's in the ether, that's being 437 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,120 discussed, We will go and look at it. 438 00:27:20,120 --> 00:27:24,440 We will not simply regurgitate what other people have told us. 439 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:26,600 And I think that should what you know, one should apply that to 440 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:28,480 absolutely everything in life. I mean, why would you, if 441 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:32,160 somebody tells you such and such a bicycle is great, Well, why 442 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,280 would you accept that you surely you would want to go and try it 443 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,680 out for yourself. And I think other parts of the 444 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:39,680 world are no different. But I mean, you know, I just go 445 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:41,640 back to what I was saying earlier, which is that there is, 446 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:46,600 you know, there's an obvious way in which narratives about other 447 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:51,080 countries can yield particular effects on the people that are 448 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,160 being told that. But no, that I mean, the, the, 449 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:58,560 the story about, you know, the chap going to Moscow and 450 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,720 reporting on it and not being believed that that's in effect, 451 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,240 that's a daily experience probably for anyone who's 452 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:07,680 listening to this particular podcast. 453 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,480 This is what happens when you try to talk to people about 454 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:15,600 things that are not being reinforced by the mainstream 455 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:17,600 paradigm. That's the reaction you get. 456 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:19,920 You know, even if you've actually been there and you've 457 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,640 actually done it on AI, don't think that can be right because 458 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,840 that's not what it says in the Telegraph or on the on the BBC. 459 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,240 So I don't think I'm going to believe you. 460 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:30,200 I mean, it is. It is perfectly astonishing. 461 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,400 But I think this is psychology that fascinates me, an 462 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:38,920 underlying psychology. And that is, and I think you 463 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:43,240 kind of alluded to it earlier, Mike, is some, some talking 464 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:48,040 points or ideas people are susceptible to rethinking, to 465 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,200 challenging, you know, themselves to hold up a mirror 466 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,600 and others are just completely impossible. 467 00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:01,400 So I've noticed over the last few years, people have generally 468 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:06,520 been actually a very open to the idea of discussing vaccination, 469 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,360 right? And whether or not growing up 470 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,880 thinking that vaccines were great, whether or not they were 471 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:15,400 great. And you know, and so people are 472 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,320 I've, I've had a number of conversations over the last few 473 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:22,760 years about vaccines. Then you bring a talking point 474 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:27,720 like China, since I was just there, or perhaps the Muslims or 475 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,840 whatever it might be. And suddenly there's a, there's 476 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,200 a different kind of psychology that, that, that gets played 477 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:38,160 out. And I don't really know what I'm 478 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:39,320 asking. I think what I'm, what I'm 479 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:44,320 getting at is, is, is why perhaps some of these talking 480 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,840 points seem to get this, this brick wall around them and 481 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,000 others, you know, they're, they're, they're, they're, 482 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:53,960 they're more susceptible to being, you know, to being broken 483 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,000 down and, and, and rethinking. It's just so strange to me how 484 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:02,080 people get so caught up in particular talking points that 485 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,920 it becomes impossible to to to to crack that nut. 486 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:10,440 I'm going to say none of us is, is immune from this. 487 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,000 I'm I'm not, you know, there are things, there are things that 488 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,720 that people will say that people have said to me in the past 489 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,560 where where it absolutely puts a brick wall up. 490 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:24,480 I and I feel it going up and it and that's that actually for me, 491 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:27,440 that raises alarm bells because I'm saying that I'm then saying 492 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:31,280 to myself, why is that happened? And I want to actually then look 493 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,760 into that issue a bit more. I think the problem is that that 494 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,320 most people when the brick wall goes up, they're not interested 495 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,440 in trying to smash through it and see what's on the other 496 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,280 side. And I think that's where the 497 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:43,120 problem is. And I'm going to say actually 498 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,800 that that the truth, the so called truth movement or 499 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:51,520 whatever you want to call it, is absolutely as bad, if not worse 500 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:55,280 than just about every other section of society in this area. 501 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:59,080 There is, there is, there are some very, very strong 502 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,800 ideologies that run through the truth movement. 503 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,320 And I find it very difficult. And I've heard this, I've heard 504 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:10,800 this many, many Times Now where people since COVID have said we 505 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,120 are the future of humanity. And I'm thinking, no, you're not 506 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:19,480 sorry because you are even more, in some cases even more 507 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:26,320 ideologically driven than than than the worst of the, of what 508 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:28,600 they would perceive to be the other side of the argument. 509 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,520 And you know that. So there, there is no, there are 510 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:36,560 no solutions in on either path. If that's the way you've got to 511 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:37,960 think, if that's the way you think about it. 512 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:42,280 So as far as I'm concerned, if somebody says something to me or 513 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,000 I read something, or there's a piece of information comes in 514 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,360 front of me, which which causes that feeling of, of the brick 515 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:53,000 wall going up that that is, that is alarm bells. 516 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,000 And you've got to, you've got to start challenging your own 517 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,240 perceptions and your own precepts at that at that point. 518 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:04,360 And, and the result of that challenge may be that you, you 519 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,400 end up actually agreeing with your original position. 520 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,240 But the point is you've at least made the effort and you've, 521 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:14,680 you've, you've, you've dug into to, to the topic a little bit 522 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,880 more and, and hopefully made a bit more progress on on, but 523 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:20,320 you've got a bit. But we've always got to be 524 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,080 careful about our confirmation bias because it does exist. 525 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,360 It is there and we've got to absolutely be challenging it 526 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:30,280 every, every time. That's what Nick Hudson 527 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,800 constantly refers to as as complex systems, which I think 528 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:37,640 is very similar to things that you've said in the past about 529 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,960 trying not to buy into the idea of absolutes, because that's 530 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,040 the, that's the sort of false dichotomy that so many people 531 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:46,000 fall into. It's that, that fake binary, 532 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:48,560 it's either one or zero. That's it. 533 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,000 There's nothing in between. There's no nuance, there's no 534 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,440 complexity. But the moment you accept that 535 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:58,600 there is complexity, that there is nuance, perhaps your own 536 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:04,320 position becomes weaker. Yes, I think that's true. 537 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:09,120 I think the other thing I was going to add is that I think we 538 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:15,640 have been pushed very, very deliberately into failing to 539 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:20,400 examine things philosophically and considering them personally. 540 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:26,040 And that has been the the way in which all of these matters have 541 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:30,240 been. Therefore, weaponized vaccines 542 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,880 are a very, very good example. I think they are. 543 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:41,320 But you know, any debate about vaccines is, I think almost 544 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,640 immediately not at all objective. 545 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,640 It's it's not dealt with in an academic sense. 546 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,200 There is a there is a personal investment in it. 547 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:56,080 Either you believe that you know, you are doing the right 548 00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:58,960 thing because you're protecting yourself and your family or 549 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,480 whatever and you're and you're and you're protecting those 550 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:03,360 around you. I mean, that was the sort of the 551 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:07,280 way in which the the COVID thing was sold, but that's actually 552 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:12,800 been in the in the sales package for a long time or you do it the 553 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,280 other way around where you again, for sort of similar 554 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:19,719 reasons, you think that you're protecting yourself by not doing 555 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:25,040 whatever it is. So the yeah, I mean, like I say, 556 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:29,199 I think think the the issue itself and, and what it is 557 00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:34,239 actually about is taken away. But people have already so 558 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:38,800 conditioned and so prejudice to take A to take a personal view 559 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:40,719 of it rather than an objective one. 560 00:34:41,199 --> 00:34:43,760 It it's absolutely hopeless. And that, and you know, that we 561 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:47,159 go back to this whole idea that that is entirely because it will 562 00:34:47,159 --> 00:34:52,239 create sufficient division and antagonism for anybody to 563 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,080 consider that you've both been lied to. 564 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:59,040 And that should be the bit that drops out of any of these sorts 565 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:00,600 of discussions. I mean, you know, the fact that 566 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:05,360 if you do enter into a dialogue with somebody, it should really, 567 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,560 if you're dealing with the matter correctly, I think it 568 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:11,400 should, it should come out that there's a, there's a discrepancy 569 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:16,920 between what you each think, you know, and there's only really 570 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,720 one way that, that can have come about, which is that some lies 571 00:35:20,720 --> 00:35:23,400 have been told. Because otherwise, how, how do 572 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:25,400 you, you know, how, how are you forming that opinion? 573 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,720 Why would you look what's being done with climate change? 574 00:35:28,720 --> 00:35:31,520 Look what's being done with, you know, to children. 575 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:37,280 This is all, absolutely all being presented as something 576 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:42,120 that is a, a really, really deeply personal part of your 577 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:45,120 life. It is not abstract anymore. 578 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,000 And, and, and all of this should be, it should be abstract. 579 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:51,520 We should be able to talk about it without there being any sense 580 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:53,800 that there's a sort of personal investment in it. 581 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:55,760 But I think that's what's that's what's being done. 582 00:35:56,000 --> 00:36:00,240 And look at, you know, look at where we are with other 583 00:36:00,240 --> 00:36:03,440 nationalities and and migration. I mean, it's done with, it's 584 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:08,160 done with absolutely everything. And I think people have are 585 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,440 terribly susceptible to that. Of course they are because it is 586 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:11,880 personal. It's become personal. 587 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:18,040 But I think also it's about security. 588 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,000 I mean, my mother said to me the other day, you know, I can't 589 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:26,280 believe that this is going on. And my whole life I thought 590 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:28,760 something else, you know, what can we believe anymore? 591 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:33,120 And it's it's that that I do understand because when you ask 592 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,200 that question, well, what can we believe anymore? 593 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:38,880 It feels like the rug has been pulled out from under you and 594 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,520 you don't have any stability. And I think that. 595 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,520 What you've, you've absolutely hit the nail on the head. 596 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,120 This has, this is something which has been done to people, 597 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:50,480 right? And people that this is 598 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:55,920 something that is, is absolutely destabilising. 599 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:59,320 And of course, the way the reason it has been done is 600 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:03,520 because if people are looking at the world with what can I 601 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:07,360 possibly believe anymore, they either completely switch off 602 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:09,440 from everything. And we, we are absolutely seeing 603 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,320 that at the moment, people are switching off from everything. 604 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,520 They're not watching the news, they're not watching alternative 605 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:17,000 media, they're not watching anything. 606 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,120 And, and the point then is that they're completely disengaged 607 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:25,360 from events and therefore in no position to resist what's going 608 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,680 on so that they they can be put in a box over there because 609 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:30,280 they're safe. Now, as far as the government's 610 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:35,480 concerned, they've been demobilised or you've got the 611 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:40,120 people who are then totally susceptible to the lies because, 612 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:44,400 because they don't have anything to, to, to as a foundation for 613 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:46,440 what they, for what they understand. 614 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:48,360 And so they can, they will believe anything. 615 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,880 And then you've got the people who will only therefore or they 616 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:56,160 even become more radicalised towards the, the mainstream 617 00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:00,040 official narrative. And because, because everything 618 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,120 else that's going on is, is a pack of Russian disinformation 619 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,240 or whatever, not, you know, category you want to put it in. 620 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:11,840 OK, so, So what that what that does very systematically is 621 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:17,960 remove people's ability to make a rational objective assessment 622 00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:21,440 or analysis of what's going on around them and it takes away 623 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:25,480 any ability to resist. And this is, This is why it, it, 624 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:27,280 this absolutely has to be fought. 625 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:28,760 We have to fight it within ourselves. 626 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:32,600 We and we do that by, you know, being absolutely careful about 627 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:36,040 what conclusions we reach. That is not something which is 628 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,760 effort free. But unfortunately, that's not 629 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:41,240 that amount of effort is not something that most people are 630 00:38:41,240 --> 00:38:44,800 prepared to to make. And you know, what's coming is 631 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,320 coming. Whether we you know, whether we 632 00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:49,920 hide from it or or pretend that it isn't or not. 633 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,320 So you know it, it's the usual thing. 634 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:54,760 It's always better to the prevention is always better than 635 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:56,880 cure. And it's better to be trying to 636 00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:00,400 get involved in resisting what's going on earlier and trying to 637 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,800 see if we can slow it down or stop it completely or diverted 638 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,840 in a different direction is much more likely outcome if if we win 639 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:15,760 this. Well, no, I mean, it's, it's a 640 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,400 very good question, but I was just going to bring back the the 641 00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:21,400 point about things being binary. I think the, you know, in terms 642 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:25,840 of what what one may or may not believe. 643 00:39:27,720 --> 00:39:32,040 It does then present the trap, which can of course create 644 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:35,760 further division, which is to to let's say it is on new sources 645 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:40,040 to draw a distinction and say, well, all of may everything that 646 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:46,800 mainstream puts out is corrupted and untrue and driven by some 647 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:50,000 sort of agenda. And conversely, that anything 648 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,760 that comes out in the alternative media is true. 649 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,640 I mean that that again is a gigantic mistake. 650 00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:59,600 So I'm not, I'm not suggesting that that simplifies things, but 651 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:04,040 it but it is just a sort of it's one of those things that people 652 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,640 do need to be very aware of. But I think that that is a. 653 00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:11,600 An absolutely identifiable sort of knee jerk reaction to when 654 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:13,880 the when the scales do fall from people's eyes and they and they 655 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:17,520 realise that on what you know, whether it's one particular 656 00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:21,440 issue that then unlocks a number of other things, it doesn't 657 00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:23,240 really matter. But the point is, once people 658 00:40:23,240 --> 00:40:27,360 realise that there have been some absolutely extraordinary 659 00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:33,440 lies or untruths told, it's easy to see how a reaction against 660 00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:35,680 that is to think right. Well, in which case absolutely 661 00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:37,640 everything I've been told is, is not true. 662 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:40,680 And that again, is, you know, is a problem. 663 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:44,880 So it's, it's really difficult to be, to, to continue to be 664 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:48,680 able to keep a, a sort of critical mind and to be able to 665 00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:51,240 discern. But I think that the most 666 00:40:51,240 --> 00:40:54,400 important thing with all of this is to keep talking to people. 667 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:59,280 And yet the, the, the great push, of course, is not for 668 00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:02,520 people to talk to each other. It is instead for them to get 669 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:06,560 completely absorbed into in particular, mobile telephones 670 00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:08,280 and, and, and for younger people. 671 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:10,680 I think I quoted this the other day. 672 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:15,680 I mean, OK, it's a statistic and notwithstanding what I just 673 00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:20,960 said, it came from the BBC, but but it was about use of mobile 674 00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:26,520 telephones in schools. And the premise for this was a 675 00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:31,520 survey that had established how much time teenagers do use their 676 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:36,320 telephones. And even during the school term 677 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:41,000 time, the, the average figure in some schools was, was up to 40 678 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:43,360 hours a week. And that's, you know, a working 679 00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:45,920 week spent on a mobile telephone. 680 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,680 I, I might sound old fashioned, but I really did wonder how they 681 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,080 found the time. I, I don't understand it, but 682 00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:56,560 the point is, but OK, I'm not sure that it was necessary. 683 00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:58,800 We've added up to 40 hours but but to think, you know, as a 684 00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:02,800 teenager you're missing out on 40 hours worth of talking to 685 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:09,040 other people is quite astonishing and very damaging. 686 00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:12,400 Yeah, but that's the problem. People don't want to talk. 687 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:17,600 I didn't. I couldn't hear you. 688 00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,640 Oh, can you hear me now? I was just, I was just saying 689 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:24,720 that the problem with people don't want to talk. 690 00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:28,480 It's easier to do scroll. And that's the thing actually, 691 00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:34,440 that is part of the psychology is there. 692 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,320 There does seem to be a desire to doom scroll. 693 00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:40,160 There does seem to be a desire to always look for the worst. 694 00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:44,720 This is why I think nuance and complexity are beautiful things 695 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:50,400 because they do reduce the, the hysterical nature of what you 696 00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:55,480 might think to be true. Digital idea is not a good 697 00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:57,560 thing. Obviously not. 698 00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:02,680 But you know, I was chatting to somebody, I think yesterday they 699 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:04,400 were going on about this is the end of the world. 700 00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:07,080 No, can't have any more kids. And this is just, it's the end. 701 00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:12,760 It's this is the end. And it's just too dramatic for 702 00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:16,000 me to accept that. I think that it makes me want to 703 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:20,680 go hold on, hold on, hold on. Let's let's unpack this a little 704 00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:24,760 bit. Is it as, is it as binary as 705 00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:29,080 what you're making it out to be? And I think the truth always is, 706 00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:32,960 no, it's not as binary. It's a little bit more nuanced. 707 00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:42,280 Does that make sense? I think, I think that, OK, 708 00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:46,640 let's, let's, I'm going to try not to be pessimistic here, but 709 00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:49,880 it is difficult. I, I think, I actually think it 710 00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:54,760 is, I think we're pretty close to, to the end of this, if you 711 00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:59,400 want to call it a civilization. And, and the reason I say that 712 00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:05,840 is because we have, if we just take the United Kingdom, let's 713 00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:08,400 just say United Kingdom was sixty 70 million people, 714 00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:15,520 whatever it is, none of those people has any kind of sense of 715 00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:21,800 community or nationality really anymore. 716 00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:25,600 There's no agreement about what being British is. 717 00:44:26,240 --> 00:44:29,320 There's no agreement on what kind of country they want to 718 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:31,800 see. There's no agreement on whether 719 00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:33,360 they want to have children or not. 720 00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:36,200 There's there's no agreement on anything actually. 721 00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:41,920 And so we are in a reality of collapse. 722 00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:43,560 We've got collapsing infrastructure, we've got 723 00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:46,640 collapsing services, we've got collapsing economy. 724 00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:48,280 Everything is instead of collapse. 725 00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:54,320 There's nobody qualified to reverse that or change that. 726 00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,000 That is the direction that we're heading in and we're heading in 727 00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:02,000 the direction of technocracy, as as you've pointed out. 728 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:08,440 And so as a result of all these things that which are physical 729 00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:12,640 realities and the fact that as we've already discussed, the, 730 00:45:12,720 --> 00:45:16,840 the fact that that it's impossible to without massive 731 00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:21,960 effort get to any kind of sense of the truth, then I think that 732 00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:26,280 people are becoming, as you've just expressed, absolutely 733 00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:31,320 pessimistic about the future and they're making bad decisions. 734 00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:38,120 And once we start seeing that kind of ever escalating 735 00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:42,680 negativity and collapse, then there is no way back for, I 736 00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:45,200 mean, just to just to take something really, really simple 737 00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:50,560 there in any city in the UK at the moment, there is no side 738 00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:56,200 street or even Main Street which is not full of potholes. 739 00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:00,960 And this, this is a road infrastructure which has 740 00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:06,320 developed over decades. And suddenly that entire Rd 741 00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:12,360 network needs to be resurfaced. There is no possibility of that 742 00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:15,320 being done because there's no possibility of unless we 743 00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:19,480 completely restructure how we do things, there's no possibility 744 00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:23,960 of there being ever the money to do that And to, to restore those 745 00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:26,480 roads back to, to back to the state where they, where they 746 00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:34,080 actually function properly. And, and so I, I don't see a, a, 747 00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:43,600 a, a good way out of this that that is going to be pleasant for 748 00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:44,760 people. I think that we're going to, 749 00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:48,960 we're going to have a fairly unpleasant time of adjustment 750 00:46:50,240 --> 00:46:54,840 until we, until we discover some new way forward or else we're 751 00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:59,760 going to end up inevitably in this, in this really restrictive 752 00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:03,160 technocracy that we all imagine. But the problem is we are 753 00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:05,920 imagining it and therefore we're effectively making it reality. 754 00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:09,400 We're, we're, we're doing the things which are, which are 755 00:47:10,240 --> 00:47:14,280 bringing it on as it were. And, and so, you know, this 756 00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:16,880 comes back to the conversation we've had actually several times 757 00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:20,200 on this, on this the, in the programmes that we've recorded 758 00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:26,320 so far, this, the future that we, that we bring about is, is 759 00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:28,680 something that we have to first of all, imagine in our own 760 00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:32,600 minds, we've got to absolutely resist the future that, that 761 00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:36,160 other people are talking about. But, but the problem is that 762 00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:40,080 there, that, that we aren't imagining a future that we want 763 00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:41,800 to see. And therefore we're not taking 764 00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:44,600 the actions that we, that we need to take in order to make 765 00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:47,560 that a reality. And so, so yeah, I'm, I'm have 766 00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:51,040 to admit I am slightly pessimistic about about where 767 00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:54,360 this is going to end. I think, I think we absolutely 768 00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:58,000 have the opportunity to, to, to make, to, to, to have a 769 00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:00,440 different outcome. But that requires people to 770 00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:03,240 actually, you know, as we said before, take a step back and 771 00:48:03,240 --> 00:48:04,240 consider. Do something. 772 00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:07,440 Well, no, it's not, it's, it's not do something. 773 00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:11,600 It's, it begins with with ourselves and, and, and 774 00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,480 imagining where we actually want to get to and considering what 775 00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:17,240 actions we, we we need to take as individuals to get to that 776 00:48:17,240 --> 00:48:19,480 point and, and actually taking them. 777 00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:23,320 And that that's, you know, whether that's a lack of 778 00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:28,040 leadership or whether that's just just a lack of, of moral 779 00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:29,320 compass. I, I'm not sure. 780 00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:32,920 I'd be interested to see what Charles reaction to that is what 781 00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:38,360 I've just said. I think I can see exactly why 782 00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:43,640 you, you, you would say what you say and, and in general terms, 783 00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:48,120 of course, I can't disagree with you, but it's slightly going 784 00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:51,720 back to the beginning with where we started in China and whatnot. 785 00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:54,880 You know, if you, if you went to one place, you'd come away with 786 00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:58,560 a different view from if you went to another and all that 787 00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:03,600 sort of thing. I don't mean to be a pedant, but 788 00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:07,960 I think it's an important point to make that certainly I don't 789 00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:12,040 regard the United Kingdom or indeed, well, I mean, obviously 790 00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:14,680 not the British ass because there are separate sort of 791 00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:18,760 political entities involved. But but, but it's not one 792 00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:29,120 homogeneous landscape or area. And I think that the way 793 00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:36,960 societies work best is when the connections are the the, the 794 00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:40,600 connections, the sort of change of connections, logistic chains, 795 00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:42,680 all the rest of it are shorter and not longer. 796 00:49:43,240 --> 00:49:50,000 And therefore society where I would say it has it has a better 797 00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:56,000 chance of thriving when things are done on a smaller scale. 798 00:49:56,000 --> 00:50:04,400 So let's say potholes, a really good example, they there could 799 00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:07,320 be, you know, a national programme to deal with potholes 800 00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:10,840 or could be done individually and locally. 801 00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:15,240 And I'm just, I'll tell you why saying it like this because I 802 00:50:15,240 --> 00:50:16,360 think I mentioned it the other day. 803 00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:22,720 I went to the Groundswell Agricultural event back in July, 804 00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:25,360 which is interesting actually, as a side note, because of 805 00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:30,280 course Groundswell is a perfect example of people being 806 00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:33,280 presented with something that sounds great. 807 00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:38,040 Obviously, you know Angus McIntosh well and you know what 808 00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:40,240 he's doing, and he describes what he's doing as being 809 00:50:40,240 --> 00:50:43,440 regenerative. Regenerative therefore becomes a 810 00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:47,520 buzzword and a marketing word and something with which you can 811 00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:49,320 convince and then corrupt people. 812 00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:53,080 And what's happened here is that there's now a big event that 813 00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:56,520 describes itself as being for regenerative farming, which of 814 00:50:56,520 --> 00:51:00,360 course should have virtually no inputs because it's all about 815 00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:03,880 harnessing nature. And yet lo and behold, there are 816 00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:09,440 umpteen machines, soil additives, programmes, 817 00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:13,920 technological solutions that apparently are to the benefit of 818 00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:15,760 regenerative farm. Basically the whole thing has 819 00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:18,160 been captured. Very obviously going to happen. 820 00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:19,200 It's happened with everything else. 821 00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:21,440 Why would this be any different? And I'm not in any way 822 00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:24,320 suggesting that people who are calling themselves regenerative 823 00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:26,240 and are doing it properly are captured. 824 00:51:26,240 --> 00:51:28,200 They're not. But the the point is that the 825 00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:30,560 language has been stolen and that's a danger. 826 00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:35,520 So that was one thing that just the other side of the motorway 827 00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:40,120 is the what's described as the Garden City of Letchworth. 828 00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:45,360 And this was this goes back to the early 1900s where there were 829 00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:50,320 well, sort of series of new towns built from scratch. 830 00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:51,760 I think something existed there already. 831 00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:56,440 But but anyway, Letchworth today, I must say. 832 00:51:56,440 --> 00:52:00,400 And yes, OK, going back to the China thing, I only spent a bit 833 00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:02,680 of the day there. I haven't lived there all the 834 00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:05,240 rest of it. But it has a feel to it that is 835 00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:07,720 completely and utterly different, I would say from any 836 00:52:07,720 --> 00:52:11,040 other town of its size. It has, it is beautifully 837 00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:16,320 designed, has lovely sort of, you know, traditional red brick 838 00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:20,440 arts and crafts buildings, really wide streets, a lot of 839 00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:24,760 very well kept vegetation. To my memory, there are no 840 00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:28,080 potholes there whatsoever. Now, I can't explain exactly why 841 00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:32,480 this is the case, but the point is that it, it looks and feels 842 00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:35,440 totally different. And walking around that place 843 00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:40,120 and seeing the people that were there, you know, going about 844 00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:42,600 their sort of daily business, it, it had a different feel to 845 00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:46,640 it. And whatever it is that has made 846 00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:50,120 that happen can easily happen in other places. 847 00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:54,200 And OK, yes, I take the point that was made, which was about 848 00:52:54,360 --> 00:53:00,400 finances and OK, that is not sort of an immediate thing to 849 00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:04,120 be, to be solved. But the point I'm trying to make 850 00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:10,280 is that it doesn't take much for a situation to be changed, even 851 00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:12,880 at the, the lowest level. I mean, the one the, the, the 852 00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:17,200 obvious 1 is, is food. And you know, if you're like, I 853 00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:20,880 am surrounded by farmland and you know that the minute 854 00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:24,240 everything is going off to supermarkets, to big food 855 00:53:24,240 --> 00:53:27,840 corporations, therefore it's being sprayed to death. 856 00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:32,960 And you know, any livestock is being injected with what all the 857 00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:36,120 time. But, but to begin to change that 858 00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:40,480 and to take some of that land out of that method of production 859 00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:44,600 and just start with a small local market to do, to do the 860 00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:49,000 direct sales farm shop, whatever it is that the, the, the effect 861 00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:52,040 that that in fact has is really, really significant. 862 00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:56,040 And it's those sorts of things, those sorts of changes that are 863 00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:59,240 driven not by central government, not by local 864 00:53:59,240 --> 00:54:02,800 government Even. So, you know, even if it came to 865 00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:08,000 it potholes that there is, there is actually no reason that there 866 00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:12,560 couldn't be some way in which a community could go about fixing 867 00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:13,880 a road. I mean, it's not that flipping 868 00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:15,120 difficult. It's not like the council 869 00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:17,360 themselves are actually doing the work. 870 00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:19,640 So all of these things are achievable. 871 00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:22,400 I think we just need to look at them in in a different way and 872 00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:24,480 and get out of this, you know, talking about sovereignty. 873 00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:28,120 I mean, yeah, OK. But but at at what level? 874 00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:29,480 At what? At what degree? 875 00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:33,120 You know, why on earth would I be looking to Keir Starmer of 876 00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:36,880 all people to make any sort of a positive difference or indeed to 877 00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:39,680 affect any influence over my life? 878 00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:43,560 He he, he's, he should be, to me a complete irrelevance. 879 00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:47,240 And if it were not for the fact that working for UK column 880 00:54:47,240 --> 00:54:50,120 involves reporting on the sorts of things that he is doing or 881 00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:51,880 supposed to be doing, he would be a complete irrelevance. 882 00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:54,360 I mean, he is. Let's face it, even Donald Trump 883 00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:56,200 couldn't remember who he was. But. 884 00:54:57,240 --> 00:54:59,280 But Charles, do you think, sorry, Charles, do you think 885 00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:03,200 the, the, the time that you were talking about, do you think 886 00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:06,640 that, that the, the size of the community counts here? 887 00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:09,320 Yes, I do. Yeah, yeah, absolutely I do. 888 00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:11,720 So, so I'm not, I'm not suggesting that there is a, a 889 00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:17,120 sort of one size fits all And I, I have no idea what the 890 00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:18,840 population of Lexworth is. It's not very big. 891 00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:23,040 So yes, I, I, I do think there is a, a scale beyond which a lot 892 00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:26,200 of this, it is problematic, but but not impossible. 893 00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:30,280 I mean, if, if we consider in, in the United Kingdom, London or 894 00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:33,120 Birmingham, OK, I'll just put the Rose tinted spectacles on. 895 00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:36,200 But I mean that both of those places have been made to work in 896 00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:40,400 terms of the transport, logistics, communications, 897 00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:43,160 water, sewage, every, everything else there. 898 00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:45,800 There was a point in time where, as far as I understand it, 899 00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:47,440 everything really, really did work. 900 00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:51,080 So whether it's just that they've got too big or there are 901 00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:54,440 a host of other reasons, it's, it's, you know, that that's sort 902 00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:56,840 of open to debate. I think it's because they've 903 00:55:56,840 --> 00:55:59,880 become too authoritarian. I mean, you know, the number of 904 00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:04,280 cases in cities that we hear of of and we do hear these stories 905 00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:07,200 from time to time of people who've tried to, to take some 906 00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:10,440 kind of local Community Action and make a, a piece piece of 907 00:56:10,440 --> 00:56:14,240 waste ground look, look pleasant and turn it into a flower garden 908 00:56:14,240 --> 00:56:17,240 or even a vegetable patch. And they end up in the court, 909 00:56:17,240 --> 00:56:20,040 being brought into the courts by the, the local authority and so 910 00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:22,680 on. I, I think that's, that's 911 00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:25,680 absolutely part of the problem and needs to be, that type of 912 00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:27,560 behaviour needs to be fought, absolutely. 913 00:56:27,560 --> 00:56:30,800 But yes, I take your, I take your point it, it, but it does 914 00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:35,160 worry me that, that so much of the population is, is based in 915 00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:39,440 cities and that where there is first of all, there is no sense 916 00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:43,000 of community at all. And, and so it becomes difficult 917 00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:47,360 to, to organise on a community basis, but also just the, the, 918 00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:54,360 the, the draconian hand of the, of the local authority and even 919 00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:58,240 even at the, at the very local level in cities is, is also 920 00:56:58,240 --> 00:57:00,440 problematic. So, so, you know, there's lots, 921 00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:03,720 I absolutely take your point and there's lots that people could 922 00:57:03,720 --> 00:57:06,840 do, but but for people to do those things, they've got to 923 00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:11,000 start with with, you know, building community again, and 924 00:57:11,600 --> 00:57:14,920 that's not easy these days. No, I, I totally agree. 925 00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:20,000 But I think I and I think we are between, I think we have, you 926 00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:23,480 know, it's been a sort of steady decline, but the post war period 927 00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:26,760 has seen the collapse of almost every sort of meaningful and 928 00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:30,000 positive and productive, you know, fraternisation, 929 00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:31,960 organisation, community, whatever. 930 00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:38,280 And, and I think although the results might not yet be sort of 931 00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:40,800 visible or tangible, I think there are enough people out 932 00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:43,480 there who have realised. And, and I think this is an 933 00:57:43,480 --> 00:57:45,320 interesting one actually, because I think there are, you 934 00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:47,240 know, it doesn't matter, for example, what you think about 935 00:57:47,240 --> 00:57:50,360 climate change or vaccines, a pothole is still a pothole. 936 00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:54,880 And no one wants to have to, you know, bump up and down in 937 00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:56,480 potholes. And I think, I think it'll be 938 00:57:56,480 --> 00:58:00,080 the I'm hoping it will be these sorts of things that that do 939 00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:05,520 allow people to, you know, for, for minds to meet and for there 940 00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:08,400 just to be a practical delivery rather than an ideological one 941 00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:12,040 or practical, you know, drive for this rather than 942 00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:14,760 ideological. But but yeah, there's a heck of 943 00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:16,840 a lot of ground to be made up. I was just going to, I was just 944 00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:19,720 going to bring in an anecdote because I know we're we're 945 00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:24,160 nearly on the stops, but just thinking, you know, going back 946 00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:27,240 to China, it just, it made me laugh so much. 947 00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:32,000 For anyone who does think, you know, China is this rigidly 948 00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:35,320 controlled country where there's, you know, people 949 00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:37,760 absolutely gone dance to the government's tune. 950 00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:40,440 They're surveilled and and this, that and the other and no one 951 00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:43,120 sort of steps out of line even for a second. 952 00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:47,720 The very first thing that I suppose quite a lot of people do 953 00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:50,960 when they arrive, coming out of the airport, Beijing, hail a 954 00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:55,400 taxi, drive down the sort of airport concourse and then out 955 00:58:55,400 --> 00:59:00,400 into, as far as I recall, what should be I guess the equivalent 956 00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:03,440 of a of a motorway in the Uki think it was it had three sort 957 00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:07,160 of painted lanes. But immediately it was obvious 958 00:59:07,160 --> 00:59:09,760 that in the direction we were trying to go, there were already 959 00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:12,760 5 lanes of traffic because the what would be the sort of hard 960 00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:14,960 shoulder and the central reservation people had squeezed 961 00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:17,000 out round the thing. It was absolute gridlock. 962 00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:21,080 So our taxi driver thought, OK, well, I don't think we'll do it 963 00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:23,920 this way. And we just went through the gap 964 00:59:23,920 --> 00:59:28,520 in the barrier into the oncoming traffic and we drove into 965 00:59:28,520 --> 00:59:31,440 Beijing on the wrong side of the road with with four lanes of 966 00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:35,480 traffic coming the other way. That I don't see people doing 967 00:59:35,480 --> 00:59:37,920 that in the United Kingdom. I'm not advocating for it 968 00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:42,080 either, but the point is, if people were controlled within an 969 00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:45,320 inch of their lives, that would not and could not happen. 970 00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:48,400 So just it made me laugh and it's silly and it's an anecdote, 971 00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:50,680 but it is indicative. And I think those are the sorts 972 00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:51,960 of things that we have to bear in mind. 973 00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:54,960 How realistic is it that a society that behaves like that 974 00:59:54,960 --> 00:59:57,720 is actually under the thumb to the degree to which Richard 975 00:59:57,720 --> 01:00:00,120 Dearlove and so forth are are presenting it? 976 01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:03,240 All right. I know that your schedule is 977 01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:07,200 quite tight today, Mike, so let's come in for the landing. 978 01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:11,200 Gentlemen, thank you so much. It's great to be back ready. 979 01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:13,400 Really enjoyed chatting. Looking forward to catching up 980 01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:14,160 with you next week.