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Good afternoon, it's just gone. 
1:00 on Monday the 14th of April

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2025. 
Welcome to UK column News. 

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I'm your host, Charles Mannett. 
Joining me in the studio today 

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is Ben Rubin. 
Welcome to the programme, Ben. 

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Thank you, Charles. 
And via video link, Diane 

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Rasmussen Mcaddy from Edinburgh 
and Alex Creel from Moscow. 

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Now, among the topics to be 
discussed today are 

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geoengineering, Russia, local 
media and plenty besides. 

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But we're going to begin the 
programme with steel and the 

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state of emergency that the 
government have described around

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the situation concerning the 
Jingyi Steel Company that 

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released British Steel, as it's 
been known, having taken it over

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from Tata Steel in 2020. 
And the emergency measures that 

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the government have taken to 
ensure. 

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So they say, that the blast 
furnaces will keep burning in 

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Scunthorpe and that there will 
be the saving of 3000 jobs. 

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Now the government have put out 
a statement, as I say, to confer

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upon us the idea that they, they
are the salvation in this 

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particular circumstance, a 
statement from the Prime 

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Minister in which he concludes 
by saying a secure future, a 

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Britain rebuilt with British 
steel in the national interest. 

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We'll, we'll go on to qualify 
exactly what it is he might mean

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by the national interest. 
But I think it's worth harking 

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back to the manifesto that they 
put out last year and to ask 

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what effect the committed £2.5 
billion to steel has actually 

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had and whether this apparent 
crisis could have been averted. 

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But also, when considering the 
numbers on the very next line of

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the manifesto was the commitment
to the most pointless exercise 

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yet described by government, 
which of course was a £1 billion

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commitment to the capture of 
carbon dioxide. 

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Now, the business Secretary, 
Jonathan Reynolds has conducted 

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many interviews, of course, in 
the wake of this. 

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And I'm just going to play a 
short clip from his interview on

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Sky News with Trevor Phillips, 
which gives us a bit more of an 

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insight into what might really 
be at play here. 

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Can't. 
I wouldn't. 

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I wouldn't personally bring a 
Chinese company into our steel 

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sector. 
You would not bring a Chinese. 

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I wouldn't. 
I think steel is a very 

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sensitive area. 
I, I don't know the Boris 

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Johnson government when they did
this, what, what exactly the 

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situation was, but I, I think 
it's a sensitive area. 

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Areas. 
Sensitive areas? 

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What about nuclear power, for 
example? 

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I wouldn't want to on an 
interview make that kind of 

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specific determination. 
But I, I think we can't ignore 

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China. 
I mean, China's fifth of the 

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global economy, you know, what 
they do has an impact on us and 

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where we can have areas where we
can cooperate in our mutual 

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interest. 
I I think that is a. 

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Good, but but there's a high 
trust bar now, isn't there? 

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Yes. 
So he was pushed further and 

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further during that interview, 
in effect to call out China as 

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being in some way a state threat
to the United Kingdom and indeed

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to the steel industry and how 
critical steel is as an overall 

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part of industry in the UK and a
lot else besides. 

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Now, in order to qualify all 
this, I think it's worth 

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referring back to what Labour 
government put out last year 

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when they described their steel 
strategy, the plan for steel, 

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which was in the form of a 
consultation. 

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But within that, they said that 
as well as supporting our 

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mission of making the UK a clean
energy superpower, steel is a 

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fundamental component in 
activities such as the 

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construction of wind turbines, 
manufacturing the next 

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generation of electric or 
autonomous vehicles, or building

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the infrastructure needed to 
sustain our digital economy. 

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Now each of those things I think
bears a little bit more scrutiny

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and that's why we will go to UK 
Steel who have published a great

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many documents on the steel 
industry of the United Kingdom 

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in the last few years. 
And in particular they refer to 

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the description of the offshore,
what's called the offshore wind 

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boom. 
So it's interesting to note then

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that they say in the last five 
years, admittedly of course four

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of those have not been under a 
Labour government, but 

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nonetheless, in the last five 
years, less than 2% of steel 

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used in UK wind farms was 
fabricated in the UK and almost 

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none made using UK, sorry, using
UK made steel. 

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Now that's just part of the 
story of course. 

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The other bit of it is that this
has by and large come from 

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China. 
And again, there is this 

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enormous discrepancy between 
what the various government 

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organisations say and what they 
do. 

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And we refer back to the OFT 
quoted Richard Dearlove saying 

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that China presents state threat
via these sorts of means. 

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And yet of course wind is never 
one area in which we're to 

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consider that China does in fact
pose such a threat. 

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We go on to look further at UK 
Steel and indeed on the 

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electricity prices. 
And this is where we get perhaps

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closer to the heart of it. 
And this this is a comparison 

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there with the UK circled on the
right, showing that the cost of 

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energy in order to produce steel
in this country is significantly

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higher than France and Germany. 
And of course, this goes back to

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the net zero agenda. 
And if anyone was in any doubt 

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as to its purpose, it seems now 
beyond any sort of contradiction

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really, that the agenda play 
with net zero is to destroy the 

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means by which industry, economy
and indeed the whole country can

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run in a sensible manner. 
And we see this time and again. 

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So not only are we looking at an
industry that relies on the 

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production of steel by the use 
of cooking coal, which of course

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is something that the government
shut down by not giving the go 

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ahead to a mine in Whitehaven 
which would have produced fuel 

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with which to run this plant 
because of net zero. 

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The government say they're still
committed to net zero, but in a 

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worldwide sense. 
So whilst they can say that we 

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won't do it here, we will 
absolutely have to do it 

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elsewhere in order that we get 
put in such a vulnerable 

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position as this with of course 
a large quantity of coke and 

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coal having to come in from 
Japan as part of what's being 

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described as a rescue package. 
Now we'll just have a quick look

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at the, the legislation itself 
because it is perfectly 

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extraordinary. 
As I say, the House Commons, 

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both Houses of Parliament met on
Saturday, which hasn't happened 

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since April 1982 with the the, 
the, the then emergency relating

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to the Falklands. 
Now I would like to draw 

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attention to this particular 
clause which gives powers to the

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Minister of entering using force
if necessary. 

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The premises were the specific 
assets are situated. 

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So effectively this is granting 
control of any assets pertaining

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to steel. 
It also suggests in terms of the

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intervention that this these 
assets are either to be used or 

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not to be used in a particular 
way, and indeed the consequences

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are spelt out too. 
If these not adhered to, then 

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the person committing the 
offence is liable to be 

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proceeded against and punished 
accordingly. 

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Seems unnecessarily strong 
language when we're talking 

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about trying to rescue a 
business one step short of of 

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nationalising it. 
And this was articulated in 

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fact, or at least pushed back 
against by many people, 

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particularly in the House of 
Lords. 

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We've got Lord Moylan here who 
said that it is not in fact 

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nationalisation. 
It is in some ways almost worse.

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It is the confiscation and 
control of a private company 

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with no safeguard guards and no 
sunset clause. 

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The other point made in the 
House of Lords, among among many

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was why steel, steel industry, 
which has failed time and again,

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Why should steel be propped up? 
And the reason I asked that 

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question, or at least amplify 
that question from the House of 

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Lords, is that of course, steel 
is certainly on the way. 

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And again, going back to the net
zero agenda, the production of 

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electric vehicles use increasing
amounts of aluminium as opposed 

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to steel. 
There's no, there's no evidence 

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really to support the fact that 
steel should be supported over 

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any other industry than than any
other sorry industry. 

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Just to qualify that. 
The the other point to make is 

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in terms of jobs, we're looking 
at electricity and indeed why 

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electricity is not going to be 
more widely available in this 

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course to support the the 
constant roll out of artificial 

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intelligence and the need to 
support that. 

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And of course, we look at the 
Institute for Public Policy 

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Research, citing the fact that 
possible 8 million UK jobs are 

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likely to be lost in pursuing 
this agenda, which makes one 

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wonder just speculatively, 
whether we are looking towards 

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the state control of industries 
as a precedent in order to be 

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able to do things like introduce
digital wages. 

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But I think there's a lot more 
to come out about this and it 

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certainly looks like it could be
a SOP to America, with whom 

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we've been in lockstep for many 
months now since the Trump re 

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election and inauguration. 
And of course, to be seen to be 

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bashing China in order to attain
perhaps more favourable 

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conditions than the 10% tariff 
that we have been given could 

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also be a large factor. 
There'll be a lot more to come 

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out on this and we're now going 
to go across to Diane to look at

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behavioural change. 
Yes, hello, Charles. 

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Hello, Ben. 
Hello, everyone. 

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Today, it's great to be here. 
So last week was the United 

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Nations Behavioural Science 
Week. 

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If you It took place across 46 
UN entities and there were 15 

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events throughout the week. 
Behavioural science, if you 

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haven't heard of it, if you 
actually can call them, you've 

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heard about it several times 
because of Brian's wonderful 

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coverage about applied 
behavioural psychology, which is

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an example of behavioural 
science is part of what is 

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called UN version 2 point O. 
This was originally covered on 

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the 20 sorry the 31st of July 
2023 edition of UK Column News. 

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If you would like to go back and
get the basics. 

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But essentially the policy, 
according to the website of you 

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even 2.0 says that halfway to 
2030 the world is not on track 

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to achieve the SDG. 
To accelerate progress, everyone

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needs to rethink, refocus and 
recharge. 

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UN 2 Point O is a vision of a 
modernised UN system, cutting 

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edge skills and forward thinking
culture that enable UN entities 

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to better contribute to the 
quest for the SDGS. 

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These ongoing internal 
transformations are designed 

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around a quintet of change. 
Now personally, I love music. 

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This is not a musical quintet, 
but the quintet that it defines 

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that are 5 steps to this change 
are Innovation Data Digital, 

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which includes helping with 
inclusive online education 

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platforms, foresight and finally
of course behavioural science 

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enabling better choices. 
They call it Besci BESCI and 

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they have a hashtag that they 
use that's kind of their 

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shortcut. 
So what happened in Behavioural 

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Science Week? 
Well, they were all webinars 

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from as far as I could tell. 
I watched some of them just so 

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that you don't have to. 
I don't like to do that to the 

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viewers, but there will be a 
link in the show notes if you 

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would like to see some things. 
I've got a short clip from one 

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of the sessions that was called 
Getting Started with Behavioural

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Science. 
This took place on Wednesday 

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last week. 
The speaker here is Sonia 

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Guerrero and she said she works 
in the education sector at 

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UNESCO, so let's hear what she 
had to say. 

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But we think that the 
behavioural science approach can

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improve the uptake of data and 
scientific evidence for decision

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making in education and we think
that. 

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But we think that one of the 
first things we need to do is to

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sensitise colleagues about this.
So to get started, what we 

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decided to do was to begin with 
a landscape review of how the 

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behavioural sciences have been 
formed, the work of other 

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international organisations such
as UNICEF, the World Health 

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Organisation and the World Bank.
A very preliminary scan is 

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showing that behavioural 
sciences have been used within 

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education projects but used 
primarily for health 

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interventions. 
Still, this is this shows 

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potential that we can in fact 
use behavioural sciences and 

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education projects in particular
around getting teachers to 

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change their teaching practises,
which is a major challenge. 

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So for example, teachers might 
still be using some outdated 

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teaching practises such as 
asking kids to memorise content 

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which would appear in an exam. 
So what we're seeing here is the

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use of applied behavioural 
psychology to change how 

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teachers teach, taking away the 
inspiration and the past that 

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they might have had up from 
teaching in the past, but 

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they're going to teach them how 
they should be teaching instead.

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And also to make sure that 
students don't have to do things

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like take exams because that's 
not fair to students, right? 

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We wouldn't want to make sure 
that they knew anything. 

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Another example of the use of 
behavioural science in human 2 

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point O is a behavioural change 
service called Verified. 

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00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:27,640
Apparently this is quote, 
delivering science based 

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information in times of crises 
in an era of prolific miss and 

231
00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:35,640
disinformation. 
There's a bit of information on 

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the quintet of change website. 
It is UN initiative, but as I 

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00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:44,680
said, it's it's got a part UN 
but also part this organisation 

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00:13:44,680 --> 00:13:47,600
called purpose. 
And we can put a screenshot of 

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00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:50,480
purposes hope page on the on the
screen here. 

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00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,560
It is apparently working hard to
cut through the noise around 

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global crises and deliver 
critical fact based and 

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00:13:56,560 --> 00:13:59,440
information. 
As they say here on the very 

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00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:01,000
obvious black and white home 
page. 

240
00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,880
They use creative storytelling 
and campaigns to move people to 

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00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:06,040
remake the world. 
Don't forget it. 

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00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:09,480
Very large letters. 
Other partners of purpose 

243
00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:12,800
include the Bill Melinda Gates 
Foundation and the Rockefeller 

244
00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,880
Foundation. 
Of course, as I was looking into

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00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:18,240
Behavioural Science Week, I 
ended up coming across something

246
00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:20,760
that I had never heard of 
before, which is the United 

247
00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:23,560
Nations University, or as I'll 
call it, You and Uni. 

248
00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:26,800
As a former professor who now 
watches what globalists do 

249
00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,800
instead of teaching at a 
university, I was surprised to 

250
00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,680
find out that You and Uni 
existed, so I decided to look 

251
00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:36,120
into it a bit more. 
Their homepage says they work on

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00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:39,440
evidence based solutions for a 
sustainable future, because of 

253
00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:41,920
course they do. 
Looking into a little bit more, 

254
00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:45,400
I found that the university 
encompasses 13 institutes 

255
00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:47,760
located in 12 countries around 
the world. 

256
00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:50,480
Their research and academic 
activities are aligned with 

257
00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:54,240
every sustainable development 
goal, which are people, planet, 

258
00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:56,600
prosperity, peace and 
partnerships. 

259
00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:58,920
So of course, this is all 
starting to sound familiar 

260
00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:00,880
because they say the same thing 
everywhere. 

261
00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:04,040
Their their headquarters is 
based in Tokyo. 

262
00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:06,640
They have institutes in 11 other
countries. 

263
00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:09,840
Of course it's global students. 
If you want to be a student at 

264
00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:12,200
this university, you can 
undertake research that links 

265
00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:14,720
directly with the work of the UN
and its agencies. 

266
00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:18,520
For example, you can get a PhD 
in sustainability science. 

267
00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,800
You can do a part time PhD in 
the Netherlands, you can get a 

268
00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:25,000
PhD in Innovation, economics and
governance for sustainable 

269
00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:29,280
development and you can also get
an MSC in Sustainability or 

270
00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:32,720
public policy and human 
development or the geography of 

271
00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:34,440
Environmental risks and human 
security. 

272
00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:37,240
And there are also non degree 
courses and other training. 

273
00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,400
If you want to know how much you
would have to pay to do this, it

274
00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:45,720
varies by institute. 
So just like me, you and uni is 

275
00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:47,800
celebrating its 50th birthday 
this year. 

276
00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:50,440
Here's a quote from the US 
Secretary General Antonio 

277
00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:53,600
Guterres, who's celebrating the 
birthday and on his website. 

278
00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:57,000
He said For half a century, 
university leaders, staff, 

279
00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,400
students and alumni have driven 
peace progress by bridging the 

280
00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:03,760
world's of education research 
and policy, by acting as a 

281
00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:07,160
trusted source for evidence 
based policy making, and by 

282
00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:09,200
uniting the world through 
knowledge and partnerships that 

283
00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:11,640
address our most pressing global
challenges. 

284
00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:16,520
The United Nations University is
truly multilateralism in action.

285
00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:21,200
So I found this you, you, this 
you and you merit, which is one 

286
00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:25,120
of the institutes talking about 
their contribution to the 

287
00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:26,720
behavioural change week last 
week. 

288
00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:30,520
And that's how I found out about
what was going on at the UN Uni.

289
00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,480
So just to see what it would be 
like if you wanted to be a 

290
00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:37,000
student at UN Uni, I've got a 
couple of clips from their 

291
00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:40,000
YouTube channel. 
This one is called from a 

292
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:42,920
lecture called A Cup of tea for 
the SDGS. 

293
00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:48,120
So let's learn from this lady. 
So how the SDC could help 

294
00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:54,440
navigate these complex TT range 
and actually the SDG could help 

295
00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:59,400
T tells its story. 
They are the impact. 

296
00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:03,600
The SDGS are the impact that the
tea industries and we as a tea 

297
00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:07,920
consumer working to achieve. 
So the success of achieving A 

298
00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:12,280
sustainable tea sectors actually
hinge on our ability to balance 

299
00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:17,400
SCG 12, which is responsible 
consumption and productions and 

300
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:23,200
in our effort to enable economic
development or SCG 8 for the T 

301
00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:27,680
small holders and in a way that 
can conserve the life on land 

302
00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:31,920
which is SCG 15. 
So all of this effort should be 

303
00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:38,560
done within the effort to 
alleviate property SCG 1 and to 

304
00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:42,920
achieve food security and SEC 2 
and to combat climate change 

305
00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:48,840
with this SEC 13. 
So there's your lecture. 

306
00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:51,160
If you wanted to know what kind 
of research they do before you 

307
00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:55,160
decided to apply, here's a video
from February explaining a new 

308
00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:59,800
report called Disaster Risks 
2025, Turning Over a New Leaf, 

309
00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:02,880
which was written by you and 
Uni's Institute for Environment 

310
00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:05,400
and Human Security. 
And it found that redefining 

311
00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:09,000
what we value is one of five 
fundamental changes that 

312
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:12,120
humanity needs to make to shift 
towards a more sustainable and 

313
00:18:12,120 --> 00:18:14,600
resilient world. 
So let's watch this summary 

314
00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:19,720
video. 
The world faces many serious 

315
00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,600
threats. 
Climate change, pollution, 

316
00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:26,720
biodiversity loss, and 
inequalities, to name a few. 

317
00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,920
We know what needs to be done to
change course. 

318
00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:34,680
So why aren't we doing it? 
The answer lies in society's 

319
00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,520
deeper structures and 
assumptions that create the 

320
00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:42,720
outcomes we see all around us. 
Take, for instance, spraying 

321
00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:46,880
aerosols into the stratosphere 
to reflect sunlight back to 

322
00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,200
space. 
This attempt to limit global 

323
00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:52,400
warming is called solar 
geoengineering. 

324
00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,480
Some governments and companies 
are exploring it as a way to 

325
00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:59,320
combat climate change, but the 
actions of a few could lead to 

326
00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:01,600
negative impacts for others 
around the world. 

327
00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:06,320
Unpredictable weather patterns, 
food and water insecurity. 

328
00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:10,320
It's also a superficial fix that
fails to address the underlying 

329
00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:14,440
causes of climate change. 
We prioritise our own benefits, 

330
00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:18,280
willing to accept negative 
impacts elsewhere. 

331
00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:21,920
To truly solve the problem, we 
need to look at how we interact 

332
00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:23,480
with each other across the 
globe. 

333
00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:27,840
When we move beyond self serving
solutions and recognise our own 

334
00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:32,120
responsibility, the real 
solution is clear, batting out 

335
00:19:32,120 --> 00:19:37,200
emissions directly. 
By phasing out fossil fuels, we 

336
00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:39,760
have the power to change the 
world for the better. 

337
00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:49,360
Let's turn over a new leaf. 
So apparently we're going to 

338
00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:53,240
spray the skies eventually, and 
we're also going to phase out 

339
00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:55,720
fossil fuels, which we know. 
Kirstamer announced that last 

340
00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:57,360
week. 
I have a little bit more later 

341
00:19:57,360 --> 00:19:59,080
on in the news on 
geoengineering. 

342
00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:00,600
But right now, Charles, what do 
you think? 

343
00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:05,600
Would you go to you and Uni? 
Will have recruited to the 

344
00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,600
university in that segment down 
I'm, I'm guessing probably not 

345
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:10,200
that many, but thank you very 
much nonetheless. 

346
00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,160
Now, Ben, you're going to take 
us down to the sort of local 

347
00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:14,800
level on a on a related note. 
Absolutely. 

348
00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:17,200
And the directly related note. 
Thanks for that, Diane. 

349
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:21,680
That was fascinating. 
And I talk a lot about this 

350
00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:25,680
interplay between money and 
power, power and money, which is

351
00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:28,680
what is projecting itself across
us at the moment. 

352
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:32,120
And the UN is all about power. 
And that word was actually used 

353
00:20:32,120 --> 00:20:34,360
several times in that video that
you ended up on. 

354
00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:38,400
They're talking about power and 
essentially these tools, these 

355
00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,440
psychological tools, these 
propaganda tools that they've 

356
00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:43,600
developed around behavioural 
psychology. 

357
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,000
Behavioural economics are lots 
of different terms for it. 

358
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,640
Nudging essentially is the one 
that I think has probably got 

359
00:20:49,120 --> 00:20:52,840
most understanding across the 
the broader population. 

360
00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:55,080
They're all about projecting 
power and they're all about 

361
00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:59,040
ultimately transforming humanity
to fit into their very, very 

362
00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:02,800
narrow understanding of what the
world should be like, right? 

363
00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:06,960
And what you end up with these 
bureaucrats in an office in New 

364
00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:09,400
York, like the woman in the 
first film that you showed, you 

365
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:12,080
think that they've got the the 
right and the capacity to 

366
00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:15,480
transform Everything Everywhere.
It's really astonishing when you

367
00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:17,760
get into it and it's actually 
Orwellian. 

368
00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:23,560
That's a great quote from George
Orwell 1984, which is power is 

369
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:27,040
tearing human minds to pieces 
and putting them together again 

370
00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:28,800
in new shapes of your own 
choosing. 

371
00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,160
And I think there's a perfect 
summary of what we're looking at

372
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,040
here with these applied 
psychology approaches. 

373
00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:37,840
And this quote always reminds me
of this fella, David Halpin, 

374
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:43,600
CBE, who was one of Blair's top 
aides during his pomp. 

375
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:50,080
Really, the Blair years, 2001 to
2007 and then also the founder 

376
00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:53,240
and CEO of the Behavioural 
Insights team, the nudge Unit, 

377
00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:56,640
which is where all most of this 
stuff came from, was certainly 

378
00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:00,920
where it was brought into 
broader use across government 

379
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:03,560
and elsewhere. 
He's an interesting character 

380
00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:05,760
help. 
And I don't use that quote from 

381
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,440
all well lightly, right? 
Because actually I've done some 

382
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,200
deep digging on Halpern and one 
of the things you find out was 

383
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,480
that he's a an amateur artist, a
painter. 

384
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,160
And these are the the types of 
things that he's producing. 

385
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,160
You can see there at the bottom 
as an example of one of his 

386
00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:23,480
artwork. 
So he's very clearly into 

387
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,520
tearing humanity to pieces and 
putting us together again in new

388
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:28,520
shapes of his own choosing, 
right? 

389
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:30,360
You know, you know, he's a 
psychologist. 

390
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,520
Maybe you should psychoanalyse 
yourself, Mr Halpern. 

391
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:35,360
It's kind of terrifying, that 
image. 

392
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:37,560
He also mentions in that same 
interview. 

393
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:39,680
We'll put a link to that as you 
can go and watch it. 

394
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:43,280
I'd highly recommend it. 
He mentions the debt that he has

395
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:47,040
to Cass Sunstein. 
He says that nudge is really 

396
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,160
related and built on the ideas 
of Cass Sunstein, who is the 

397
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,320
author of, amongst other things,
Conspiracy Theories and Other 

398
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:58,240
Dangerous Ideas and Democracy 
and the Problem of Free Speech, 

399
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,480
which will become particularly 
pertinent when I come on to the 

400
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,600
media in this segment later on 
in the news. 

401
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:06,920
So this stuff's got absolutely 
everywhere. 

402
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:08,880
The UN have clearly got their 
hands on it. 

403
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,200
Alpen has been bragging 
recently. 

404
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,320
This from the Haywood Quarterly,
which I'll put again provide a 

405
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,560
link to. 
I'd suggest going to read why 

406
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:21,440
government needs a fresh nudge. 
So how happens really 

407
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,440
resurfacing this stuff needs to 
double down on it and it shows 

408
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:29,160
the enormous success of this 
initiative and how far these 

409
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:31,480
ideas have spread across global 
government. 

410
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,720
So not but, but primarily in the
UK. 

411
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,800
And actually, you can see at the
top there, the UK has, to my 

412
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:43,880
count, 83 separate nudge units 
running across various different

413
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:50,200
departments, including HMRC, 
Defra, Ofcom, HMCTS, the court 

414
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,840
system. 
And this just demonstrates the 

415
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,640
influence and power of this 
stuff ultimately, and the 

416
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:58,880
influence and power of Halpern 
in particular. 

417
00:23:59,120 --> 00:24:03,200
He's highly active today. 
He put this out in January via 

418
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:05,080
demos. 
Our old friends at Demos. 

419
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,560
I think I've spoken about them 
every week for the past month. 

420
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:12,000
Social Capital 2025, The Hidden 
Wealth of Nations, written 

421
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:16,560
alongside Andy Haldane, former 
Bank of England chief economist,

422
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,160
and then he was the chief 
executive of the Royal Site of 

423
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,440
the Arts, but he got booted out 
at the start of the year. 

424
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:23,720
There was a total meltdown at 
the RSA. 

425
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,920
Won't go into that right now, 
but I'd suggest going to have a 

426
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:28,440
look at this. 
You probably don't want to read 

427
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,440
all of it because essentially 
you've got 2 technocrats trying 

428
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,680
to intellectualise and 
quantitatively measure something

429
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,120
which any normal human being 
would understand intuitively and

430
00:24:38,120 --> 00:24:39,560
without explanation. 
Right? 

431
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:43,040
This idea of social capital, the
fact that we have a reputation 

432
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:45,600
and that we interact with each 
other as human beings and that 

433
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:47,760
trust is important. 
Apparently they need to write a 

434
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,480
long report to understand that, 
right? 

435
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:54,680
And this is slap bang in the 
middle of the current Labor 

436
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,680
Party agenda. 
It builds around some ideas 

437
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:01,240
around the preventative state, 
which come from demos a couple 

438
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,520
of years ago now, actually came 
out during the Tory government, 

439
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,520
the last Tory government, which 
basically is just promoting this

440
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,200
idea that the state needs to be 
involved in absolutely every 

441
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,560
part of your life. 
It's LinkedIn. 

442
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:13,920
If we could just flash that back
up on screen quickly. 

443
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,000
If you see on the, the, the the 
cover page on the left, in the 

444
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,880
bottom right hand corner of 
that, you can see local trust, 

445
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:20,840
right. 
Interesting. 

446
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,680
They've got to get local trust 
and also something called the 

447
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,200
National Network for 
Neighbourhood Improvement, which

448
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,720
is a new initiative, a bit like 
3 CI. 

449
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,920
This is 3NI3CI in in in the 
climate arena. 

450
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,600
This is, this is a counterpart, 
but it's all about social 

451
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,720
innovation and it's also linked 
into, they love this sort of 

452
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,480
this multiple of different 
organisations. 

453
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,480
This is all linked into the same
thing, right? 

454
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:46,680
But they need lots of different 
things to make it look like 

455
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,760
there's, there isn't a kind of 
monopoly on how this thing's 

456
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,360
being pushed forward. 
It actually ladders up to this, 

457
00:25:52,360 --> 00:25:55,960
which is ICON, the Independent 
Commission on Neighbourhoods, 

458
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,480
and they're reviewing the 
current state of neighbourhoods 

459
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:02,040
across England. 
This was launched in September 

460
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,880
last year and essentially going 
out and asking a bunch of 

461
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,360
questions. 
Again, I won't read them out in 

462
00:26:09,360 --> 00:26:12,360
their totality just to kind of 
with an eye on time, but 

463
00:26:12,360 --> 00:26:15,040
essentially what they're trying 
to do is to understand why 

464
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,240
neighbourhoods are important. 
And in order to do that, again, 

465
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,480
this is this kind of 
technocratic never leaves the 

466
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:24,120
M25 kind of worldview, which is 
that, well, why do we need to 

467
00:26:24,120 --> 00:26:27,760
write 100 page report with a 
load of graphs in it to explain 

468
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:29,080
why neighbourhoods are 
important? 

469
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:33,280
Surely that's just blindingly 
obvious to anyone with a soul, 

470
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,280
You know, like this is, is this,
is this what we're looking at 

471
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,360
here? 
Soulless technocrats running the

472
00:26:38,360 --> 00:26:40,120
country? 
I think it might be who's in 

473
00:26:40,120 --> 00:26:43,760
charge of icon, right. 
So this is Baroness Hilary 

474
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,960
Armstrong. 
She was a minister under the 

475
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:51,880
Blair government's, so first for
housing and planning, then local

476
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:53,680
government, then social 
exclusion. 

477
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,920
She was also chief whip as well.
So top Blair age, she's running 

478
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,080
this, a bunch of other people in
there with demos links. 

479
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,600
So again, this is a demos proxy 
what we're looking at here. 

480
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,840
And you can see on that image 
David Halpern in the far left 

481
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,520
and also Sarah, dare I say far 
left politically as well. 

482
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,680
And you can see on the sign in 
the background that you are in a

483
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,040
big local area. 
So this is another initiative 

484
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,680
called Big Local, which is a 
continuation of the Big Society 

485
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,040
agenda, which was based on the 
ideas of Saul Alinsky. 

486
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:29,240
This is neo Marxist communist 
essentially, and they've mapped 

487
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:33,280
out the whole country and there 
are a bunch of neighbourhoods, 

488
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,600
schools of neighbourhoods that 
they've identified as being of 

489
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:41,520
particular interest and these 
are the people that help and is 

490
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:43,840
targeting. 
He is walking amongst them. 

491
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,280
He has gone out into the field 
and he is exploring how he can 

492
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:51,600
apply his ideas for 
reengineering humanity on the 

493
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:55,960
poorest people in the country. 
Yeah, that's what these people 

494
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:57,320
are doing. 
Yeah. 

495
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,880
And really getting a grip around
the nation. 

496
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:02,560
And it's all about delivering 
the missions. 

497
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,880
So there is no pathway to 
mission delivery without putting

498
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:10,040
neighbourhoods front and centre.
Yeah, this is absolutely crucial

499
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,520
to the implementation of the 
change agenda. 

500
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,640
They've got to get everyone in 
the country caught up in this 

501
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,640
thing. 
It's a total centralised control

502
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:22,760
of our society, driven by Halpin
and these organisations here. 

503
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:26,520
Lots of talk of reform is in the
political party which is 

504
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,520
essentially A proxy for people 
who don't like what the states 

505
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:31,080
doing. 
They talk about reform and 

506
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,400
needing to combat it and control
it, which is really odd given 

507
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,040
this is supposed to be an 
impartial Commission. 

508
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,360
NHS obviously. 
Front and Centre article here 

509
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:44,760
which will link to the BBC which
talks about an English 

510
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,000
neighbourhood that claims to 
hold the secret to fixing the 

511
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:48,880
NHS. 
And actually W Streeting has 

512
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:52,120
come out and promised to turn 
the NHS into a neighbourhood 

513
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:53,880
health service. 
So we're going to start hearing 

514
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,440
this term a lot again for all 
the reasons that I've 

515
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:58,720
identified. 
Interestingly, the neighbourhood

516
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,760
that they reference is in 
Birmingham where they can't even

517
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,560
collect the bins at the moment, 
which is posing a public health 

518
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:06,240
issue. 
But apparently we've got to go 

519
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,360
to Birmingham to find out what 
the future of the NHS is all 

520
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,480
about. 
And ultimately for me, this 

521
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,480
really ladders up to to some 
really hideous people and some 

522
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:16,920
hideous ideas. 
And actually the best place to 

523
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,720
go to understand it, I think, is
this podcast which came from 

524
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:24,600
Marta made, she's called the 
Anti Humans, which is a 

525
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,400
harrowing listen. 
It's about 3 hours long and it 

526
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,280
describes what the communists 
did in Romania, some of the most

527
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:33,800
violent and destructive actions 
in human history, where they 

528
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,640
really were tearing human minds 
and bodies to pieces and putting

529
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,160
them together again in new 
shapes of their own choosing. 

530
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,880
And that's what I think that we 
can see here, playing out with 

531
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,680
these behavioural insights, 
techniques and this desire to 

532
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:48,360
radically transform humanity. 
Yeah. 

533
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,200
Radical it absolutely is. 
I hope we'll have time to talk 

534
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:52,760
about that in extra. 
Thank you very much, Ben. 

535
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,520
Now as you'll know, the UK 
column is funded solely by ITS 

536
00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,760
members and viewers and so if 
you are in a position to be able

537
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:04,640
to support that then you can 
either make a donation or you 

538
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:09,040
can join as a monthly member or 
an annual member or indeed as a 

539
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,440
lifetime member. 
We also get a small percentage 

540
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,360
of sales of client cars products
which are available on the 

541
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,720
website. 
And indeed, sorry, I've got that

542
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,840
back to front our merchandise in
the shop. 

543
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:21,880
So please do go and have a look 
there. 

544
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:26,160
Also, we'd encourage you please 
to not just engage with but also

545
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:30,240
to share our material as widely 
as you possibly can because we 

546
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:31,880
are heavily censored elsewhere 
Now. 

547
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:33,920
Ben, you have something coming 
up. 

548
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,720
Indeed, this is my side hustle, 
what I do in my evenings and on 

549
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:40,560
The Saturdays. 
It's called Pattern. 

550
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,800
We're building parallel systems 
of culture, governance and 

551
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,920
economy, which means new 
businesses, new charities, new 

552
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:48,880
campaigns. 
And I'm running an incubator 

553
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,800
programme over 10 weeks. 
It's a structured process. 

554
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,280
It's about unlocking growth. 
People who are launching new 

555
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,040
things and want to participate 
in creating different options 

556
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,160
for society. 
Come on down. 

557
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,600
It starts on the 26th of April 
and it, as I say, runs for 10 

558
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:06,240
weeks. 
I'm running the programme. 

559
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,200
If it sounds like your bag or it
might relate to someone that you

560
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,320
know who'd be interested, then 
you can find out more by going 

561
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,360
to pattern18.substack.com and 
then also be a link in the show 

562
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:16,600
notes. 
Great. 

563
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,360
Thank you, Ben and Diane. 
A bit more on Dan Kleiman, 

564
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,240
please. 
Yes, thanks, Charles. 

565
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,200
I know we've mentioned this on 
the news a couple of times last 

566
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,160
week, but since I'm here today, 
I want to specifically do a 

567
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,400
particular kind of focus message
about the importance of this 

568
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,560
case. 
Dan Kleinman, I've interviewed 

569
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,640
previously on UK column. 
He's being sued by the same 

570
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,720
woman called Amanda Jones, who 
was the school librarian in two 

571
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,960
different states for defamation.
And Amanda Jones, some of you 

572
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,920
might remember previously I did 
a review of her book called That

573
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,240
Librarian, which was her 
basically ranting about how 

574
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,600
awful it was to have been 
attacked by these people, in her

575
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,480
words of that because they don't
want these inappropriate books 

576
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,040
put into school libraries. 
And, and so she's fighting 

577
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,520
everything that she can possible
and that is included. 

578
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,440
She's sued more than one person 
now. 

579
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:08,080
So Dan's legal fees he estimates
will be approximately $200,000 

580
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,120
because he's having to fight the
same case in two different 

581
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,000
states. 
And just to let you know, this 

582
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,760
is not just AUS problem. 
We need to do more in the UK, 

583
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:17,760
which I'm actively trying to do 
myself. 

584
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,240
Here's one example of a book 
from the UK. 

585
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,400
This is a book, if we can put 
this on the screen holding up 

586
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:27,320
called Granddad's pride. 
Granddad and Gramps once meant 

587
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,360
went to many pride parades and 
what happens when they bring 

588
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,080
this little grandchild to the 
pride parade? 

589
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:35,760
And that's a story about that. 
This book has won the British 

590
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,120
book award and Waterstones 
children's book prize and it's 

591
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:41,960
got protesters holding up signs 
inside this picture book for 

592
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,760
very young children saying 
things like LGB with the T and 

593
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,640
protect trans kids. 
So just to let you know, I could

594
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:50,200
go into much more, but I won't 
do it. 

595
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,280
But just please, if you can at 
all, give at least a prayer 

596
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:57,640
request which Dan's asked for on
his on his page or some money 

597
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,040
please. 
Great, Diane, thank you very 

598
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,280
much indeed. 
And now an investment for 

599
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,840
Standing the Light, which is 
coming up the end of next month,

600
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,040
the bank holiday weekend, 23rd 
to 26th up in Cumbria. 

601
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:10,960
It's a fantastic festival last 
year attended by UK column and 

602
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,120
we will indeed be there this 
year. 

603
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:17,360
So please do look out a ticket 
for Stand in the Light and also 

604
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,960
a reminder that our event from 
the 5th of April is still 

605
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:22,520
available. 
The wall to buy at the shop. 

606
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,440
You can buy the recording of the
live stream, which I really 

607
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,480
would encourage you to do. 
An absolutely fantastic 

608
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:32,120
selection of talks. 
And tomorrow going out at 1:00, 

609
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,160
an interview I've recorded with 
Doctor Sam Bailey, a New 

610
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,440
Zealander who has been 
persecuted by the Medical 

611
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:42,160
Council of New Zealand and is 
now being asked for 150,000 New 

612
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:47,440
Zealand dollars in effect as a 
means of attempting to censor 

613
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:48,680
her. 
So that will be a very wide 

614
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:49,920
ranging and fascinating 
interview. 

615
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,320
I really would encourage you to 
take a look at that. 

616
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:58,360
Now we are going to move to 
Russia, Ukraine, of course, 

617
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:02,520
there's been an awful lot of 
talk controversy about the Trump

618
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:08,120
tariff sort of merry go round. 
And a part of that narrative is 

619
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:13,320
that both China and Russia can 
indeed be dealt with by economic

620
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:14,520
means. 
And I think this is something 

621
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:16,679
that we want to look more 
closely at. 

622
00:34:16,679 --> 00:34:20,840
Of course, this is on the heels 
of the report yesterday of an 

623
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:25,400
attack in Sumi in North East 
Ukraine, which Donald Trump has 

624
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:30,080
is seen to be speaking out, you 
know, very much as a as a 

625
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,159
horrific and and regressable 
incident, always a bit unclear 

626
00:34:33,159 --> 00:34:35,679
as to sort of how it happened or
or what happened. 

627
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:41,679
And then we've got the sort of 
Witkoff and Kellogg duo making 

628
00:34:41,679 --> 00:34:45,480
overtures about how things could
be resolved with rewriting the 

629
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,080
the map and all the rest of it. 
But ultimately they keep coming 

630
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,920
back to the idea that the the 
art of the deal is such that 

631
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,679
there may be financial control 
exerted over both China and 

632
00:34:54,679 --> 00:34:57,240
Russia, either together or 
separately in order to bring 

633
00:34:57,240 --> 00:35:01,120
about the right outcome. 
Now, just that's a prefix to 

634
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,640
that, I'm just going to show the
map of government debt that the 

635
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,280
International Monetary Fund puts
up, just because it's fairly 

636
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:12,080
stark that shown in orange is 
the United States and the United

637
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:16,040
Kingdom both with a debt of over
100%. 

638
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:20,640
And with that in mind, we're now
going to go to Moscow where 

639
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:25,200
we're going to hear from Alex 
Creel, who has been digging into

640
00:35:25,240 --> 00:35:27,160
this. 
And, and I think my my question,

641
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,680
first of all, welcome to the 
programme, Alex. 

642
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:35,600
But my question to you is, with 
this backdrop, what exactly is 

643
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:41,120
the likely effect on Russia of 
any sort of financial or 

644
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:44,480
economic play from in 
particular, the United States? 

645
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:50,120
Thanks, Charles. 
So right at the moment, there 

646
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:55,440
are 38,000 sanctions against 
individuals and corporates in 

647
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,040
Russia. 
That's a figure calculated by 

648
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:00,640
the Kremlin. 
These sanctions have been in 

649
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:02,960
place now for about over three 
years. 

650
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:07,840
And in terms of, you know, 
export performance of Russia, 

651
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:13,360
the effect has been essentially 
0 and it's been 0 in dollar 

652
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,360
terms. 
But what, what it's done is it's

653
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,680
just shifted trade. 
All of the trade that went from 

654
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:25,000
Russia to Europe is now going 
from Russia to India, Russia to 

655
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,920
Turkey and Russia to China. 
So I, I don't know if it's 

656
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:32,800
possible to put the chart up, 
but even without the chart, you 

657
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:37,280
can see, yeah, you can see just 
the contraction in the red, 

658
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:41,040
which is the reduction in trade 
with Europe has been completely 

659
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:45,400
compensated for by incremental 
exports to those three countries

660
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,520
I mentioned. 
So net, net, there's been no 

661
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:51,160
impact really on exports from 
Russia. 

662
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:55,760
So at this stage, I, I think 
it's fair to say that those, 

663
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,000
those things have not worked. 
And of course, the Russian 

664
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:04,640
economy on a GDP level continues
to grow the, the revising the 

665
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:08,200
number upwards and downwards, 
but it's somewhere about 4% GDP 

666
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:12,880
growth in 2024. 
So, so far that hasn't worked. 

667
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:18,200
And then also in, in the other 
charts shows the leaks in the, 

668
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:24,560
in the, in the importing system.
So this is a just a example 

669
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:28,240
where you have Estonia, which is
one of the most that at least 

670
00:37:28,240 --> 00:37:33,080
they're political leaders are 
the most pro war and anti peace 

671
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:35,840
in Europe. 
And while they're out sort of 

672
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:41,560
war mongering, Estonian 
businesses are quadrupling the 

673
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:46,520
exports that they're making to 
Russia's neighbours in the CIS 

674
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,680
countries. 
So they're now exporting 4 times

675
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:54,160
more to sort of Kazakhstan as 
Pakistan, Armenia than they were

676
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:59,120
before the special military 
operations started in 2022. 

677
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:04,400
So you have another, you know, 
you have a, a porous system of, 

678
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:08,560
of tariffs of, of sanctions over
imports and, and there are ways 

679
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,480
around it. 
So in dollar terms, those are 

680
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:15,800
not big numbers going from €5 
million a month to €20 million a

681
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:18,440
month. 
But again, it indicates the way 

682
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:23,280
that the sanctions regime can be
bypassed or evaded. 

683
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:28,440
So I think there's going to be 
no, there won't be taken 

684
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,800
seriously more threats of 
sanctions inside Russia, 

685
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:36,000
although Russia is also working 
on trying to undo some of those 

686
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,000
sanctions. 
Because in, in, in any one of 

687
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:42,000
these transactions, the buyer is
also benefiting. 

688
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,960
So, you know, in the example of 
Europe, Europe now no longer has

689
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:50,280
access to cheap piped pipeline, 
Russian gas, and is now buying 

690
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:54,440
expensive LNG imports from the 
United States. 

691
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:57,320
So, you know, in every one of 
those transactions, the other 

692
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:01,200
side is also losing. 
So Russia is trying to unfreeze 

693
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:03,800
some sanctions on agricultural 
exports. 

694
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,520
And that is something that's 
going to help a lot of countries

695
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:09,520
around the world if that's 
achieved, to get Russia back 

696
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:13,280
onto the SWIFT system for a 
limited set of transactions. 

697
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:17,920
Yeah, I mean, fascinating. 
And I think, you know, it sort 

698
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,320
of harks back in in a way to the
the opening report today about 

699
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:22,680
steel. 
Because obviously it seems that 

700
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:25,640
there's a very sort of clumsy 
effort by the British government

701
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:29,600
to demonise China in some way, 
even though in actual fact we 

702
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,360
import over 60% of our of our 
own steel. 

703
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,200
But nonetheless, there there is 
this sense of trying to apply 

704
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:40,000
some sort of pressure on China. 
To to what extent do you think 

705
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:45,080
these policies, discussions, all
the rest of it are, are actually

706
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:47,880
pushing Russia and China towards
one another? 

707
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:54,520
Well, they, they clearly have 
done over the since 2022. 

708
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,440
They're they're now joined at 
the hip, which was of course 

709
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:01,960
always the sort of Geo 
geostrategic nightmare of, of 

710
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,800
that union happening. 
And now they're very closely put

711
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:07,760
together. 
And I and I think, I guess the 

712
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:12,240
rare earth minerals. 
Issue is, is now brought that 

713
00:40:12,240 --> 00:40:15,200
into focus because China 
dominates that sector. 

714
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:18,600
And if you're fighting with 
China and with Russia, I mean 

715
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:22,360
fighting politically and 
economically, then then you're 

716
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,240
also in trouble with, with 
things like rare earth minerals.

717
00:40:25,240 --> 00:40:30,160
So maybe the, the idea is to, 
to, to try and split them again 

718
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:32,480
or at least put a little bit of 
distance between them. 

719
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,360
It's it's possible, but I don't 
think it's going to work at this

720
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:39,280
stage. 
And in terms of the the United 

721
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:42,840
States sort of approach this, do
you think that there is naivety 

722
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:45,920
or ignorance or sort of a 
combination or or something 

723
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:49,360
entirely different? 
I think, I think it's just an 

724
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:55,600
overhang of of imperial sort of 
obsession with imperialism. 

725
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:59,800
I think in the early 90s, 
America decided they are the 

726
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:03,280
single hegemon and they can 
dictate all the rules 

727
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:05,360
everywhere, all around the 
world. 

728
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,880
And I think, you know, things 
have moved on since then. 

729
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:12,280
You know that, as you said, the,
the debt charts, the 

730
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:16,480
differential GDP levels, you 
know, economic power and 

731
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:20,160
vulnerabilities are shifting, 
but they're still stuck in this 

732
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:22,480
single. 
We are the hegemon and we can 

733
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:24,800
dictate terms everywhere to 
everyone. 

734
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:27,240
And at some point that's going 
to stop working. 

735
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:30,560
And I think that's what the 
last, you know, 20 years has 

736
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:33,840
been all about really probably 
be what the next 20 years is 

737
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:37,280
about as well. 
Yeah, well, obviously we will. 

738
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:38,960
We will wait and see. 
Alex, thank you very much 

739
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:40,400
indeed. 
Joining us, if you'd like to 

740
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:42,720
follow more of what Alex does, 
then the best place to go I 

741
00:41:42,720 --> 00:41:46,080
would say is, is Substack be a 
link to his Substack Thinking 

742
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:50,680
Coalition in the show notes and 
we'll come back to discuss that 

743
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:54,520
more in extra. 
Now, Ben, we're going to go to 

744
00:41:54,520 --> 00:42:00,680
Charitable journalism. 
Indeed, local journalism, this 

745
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:02,520
is the big focus. 
We talked about neighbourhoods 

746
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:03,720
earlier. 
I've talked about local 

747
00:42:03,720 --> 00:42:06,160
journalism for the past couple 
of weeks and this really is 

748
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,120
going to be a big focus for the 
next year or two, I think. 

749
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:14,160
So just to remind you, we spoke 
about this report last week, 

750
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,400
Public Interest News Foundation,
Regenerating local news in the 

751
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:19,720
UK. 
They see the current ecosystem 

752
00:42:19,720 --> 00:42:23,960
of news as delivering fragile 
communities victimised by 

753
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:28,040
disinformation, leading to a 
withering democracy. 

754
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:31,800
Democracy is dying, but we're 
going to move to this new model 

755
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:35,960
with community newsrooms, 
whatever that is. 

756
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:40,920
A new type of local council has 
to transform the state, right 

757
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:46,480
and an empowered community, 
flourishing democracy, Big tech 

758
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:49,160
much more tightly controlled 
through legislation and 

759
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:52,040
importantly actually in the 
centre there as we'll get into 

760
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:57,920
the involvement of philanthropy,
rich people injecting money into

761
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:01,600
the media ecosystem. 
What could possibly go wrong? 

762
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:04,280
Now I wanted to understand a bit
more about where this report 

763
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:08,400
came from and this entire agenda
basically, and I've landed on 

764
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:11,880
this organisation. 
She's the Charitable Journalism 

765
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:17,120
project launched in 2022 and it 
describes itself as delivering 

766
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:20,200
policy and evidence to protect 
and develop public interest 

767
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:22,360
journalism. 
They love that term public 

768
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:25,160
interest, which basically means 
for your own good. 

769
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:28,360
I think actually they've sort of
re engineered that to their own 

770
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:31,520
ends. 
So this is newsrooms reading 

771
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:34,640
from the bottom that work in the
public interest needs support, 

772
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:39,240
easier access to charitable 
status, importantly would help 

773
00:43:39,240 --> 00:43:41,160
them secure a sustainable 
future. 

774
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:44,280
So this is a group of 
journalists, lawyers, funders, 

775
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,560
academics and media people 
working together to protect 

776
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:50,560
apparently and develop public 
interest journalism. 

777
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:54,120
A few people just to show you 
what we're looking at here. 

778
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:56,400
So William Perrin is involved 
now. 

779
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:58,960
I've spoken about you for the 
past three weeks, William. 

780
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:01,000
You're getting absolutely 
everywhere there. 

781
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,440
This is the guy that was 
boasting about being 

782
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:05,640
instrumental in establishing off
COM. 

783
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,120
He's absolutely involved in this
still. 

784
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:13,040
Samir Padania, who again I spoke
about last week, he's on Perrins

785
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:18,760
Foundation and he's also linked 
into Open Societies, Nestor, the

786
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:21,000
International Fund for Public 
Interest Media. 

787
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:23,840
Fascinating guy. 
Probably going to have to do a 

788
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,240
bit more of an exploration on 
him over the coming weeks 

789
00:44:26,240 --> 00:44:29,040
because he's a big thinker in 
this area, really driving the 

790
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:31,120
agenda. 
And then this woman on the 

791
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:37,040
right, Kitty von Bertel, who is 
a trustee of the charity and she

792
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:41,800
is Co founder of Multitudes 
Foundation who I've spoken about

793
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:45,680
a lot previously, which is a 
political organisation. 

794
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:49,080
It's funded by Daniel Sachs and 
Open Societies. 

795
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:52,680
It's part of the apolitical 
network and it's express purpose

796
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:56,120
is to break existing power 
structures. 

797
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:59,400
That's what Multitudes 
Foundation says that it's there 

798
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:02,400
to do, to break existing power 
structures. 

799
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:05,440
She's also involved in this 
organisation which is 

800
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:07,720
illuminate. 
Well, she was involved at the 

801
00:45:07,720 --> 00:45:09,840
time that this charity was 
founded. 

802
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:13,640
Right now, this is established 
by a guy called Pierre 

803
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:15,480
Armadillo. 
He was one of the founders of 

804
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:20,160
eBay, so French billionaire, and
he envisions a future where 

805
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:23,800
everyone has power to shape 
society against about 

806
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:27,400
transformation of society. 
They're there to ensure that 

807
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:30,600
people have the information 
rights and power to drive 

808
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:32,800
change. 
They're involving themselves in 

809
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:36,680
information ecosystems, 
promoting participation and 

810
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:40,480
dissent importantly, but only 
dissent that serves their 

811
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:44,080
purposes. 
And it's working across Africa, 

812
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:46,360
Asia, Latin America. 
And actually, I thought that 

813
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:49,280
this fund was only working 
across what they would probably 

814
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:53,520
call the global S, but actually 
it is one of the vehicles for 

815
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:57,520
CJP. 
Apologies, jumping ahead there. 

816
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:02,880
And which is interesting shows 
they're working on the ground in

817
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:05,200
the UK. 
Importantly, right now we're 

818
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:10,080
going to hear from George Brock,
who is the chairman of the 

819
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:15,680
Charitable Journalism Project, 
talking back in 2022 to the DCMS

820
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:22,320
committee Local News Inquiry. 
Why is it philanthropic funding 

821
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:26,800
of journalism is less prevalent 
in the UK than other countries 

822
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:29,120
like the US? 
Charitable Journalism Project 

823
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:35,600
works on exactly this issue and 
we've we would like to see more 

824
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:39,920
organisations, more local 
newsrooms to apply and succeed 

825
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:42,600
as and registering as charities,
which would give them a great 

826
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:45,800
advantage. 
There is perhaps more money 

827
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,720
sloshing around in the American 
system than may ever slosh 

828
00:46:48,720 --> 00:46:51,920
around in the British system. 
But if they're registered as 

829
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:54,280
charities, they can take 
donations large and small. 

830
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:57,240
There's a tax break and there's 
a reputational gain as well. 

831
00:46:57,240 --> 00:46:59,480
If you're a registered charity, 
obviously you look. 

832
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:03,880
You're you're regulated. 
As far as I know, the Burngreve 

833
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:07,720
Messenger is the only local news
provider registered as a 

834
00:47:07,720 --> 00:47:11,440
charity. 
There's been some shift of 

835
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:14,920
attitude on the part of the 
Charity Commission recently. 

836
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,760
They've publicised the decision 
to register as a charity, the 

837
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:21,800
Public Interest News Foundation,
and they registered charitable 

838
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:24,800
journalism projects as well. 
And we think that they are 

839
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:28,400
starting to think more flexibly 
about this, but we would like to

840
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:32,920
see this opening wider and more 
publications go through. 

841
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:37,280
It not wouldn't suit every local
publication to do that, but we 

842
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:39,560
think there are really quite a 
lot and our next project will 

843
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:41,680
probably be to look at exactly 
what this number is. 

844
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:44,400
We think there are quite a few 
local news projects which we've 

845
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:49,960
gained from this and could you 
know strengthen that evidently 

846
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:52,240
often or often very ropey 
finances. 

847
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:58,920
There were more local newsrooms 
registering as charities. 

848
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:01,440
Apparently news is not an 
industry anymore. 

849
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:04,440
It's charitable. 
And this is a total inversion of

850
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:06,520
what it's supposed to be, right?
Supposed to operate in a 

851
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:13,240
marketplace and not be owned and
controlled by philanthropic 

852
00:48:13,240 --> 00:48:15,240
wealth. 
Ultimately, the people that 

853
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:18,200
these titles are supposed to be 
investigating and holding to 

854
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:19,760
account, right? 
It's not just the state that's 

855
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:23,480
the issue, it's the money side 
of the power money equation as 

856
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:26,920
well. 
What else does charitable status

857
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:29,200
do? 
Well, first of all, it makes 

858
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:31,800
them subject to greater 
regulation. 

859
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:34,880
As we talked about Ofcom over 
the past few weeks, the Charity 

860
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:37,280
Commission will also now be in 
the mix as well, right? 

861
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:39,480
So that again is the method 
through which greater and 

862
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:41,120
tighter control is going to be 
applied. 

863
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:44,360
It's going to give you access 
supposedly to to free money. 

864
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:48,000
So make it possible for big 
funds like Illuminate to inject 

865
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,680
money into this ecosystem so 
that they can strengthen their 

866
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:53,920
ropy finances, which was quite 
an interesting term that he 

867
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:56,360
ended up, which is really the 
point here, right? 

868
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:59,240
Which is why are their finances 
ropy? 

869
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:05,480
It needs to do with this, right?
It's the destruction of Western 

870
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:09,880
economies in order to place more
power and wealth into the hands 

871
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:13,440
of a global 1%. 
That's the problem. 

872
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:16,400
Yeah. 
And, and getting that global 1% 

873
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:19,480
that has engineered this 
situation deliberately to start 

874
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:22,680
giving money to local 
newspapers, it's not going to 

875
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:25,160
fix the issue. 
It's going to exacerbate the 

876
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:27,400
issue, isn't it? 
That's what's going to happen. 

877
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:29,600
All right. 
And what else has been going on?

878
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:32,240
Well, Big Tech's entered the mix
really importantly. 

879
00:49:32,240 --> 00:49:36,600
So here's some statistics 
looking at the advertising 

880
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:41,800
revenues globally of publishers,
TV channels, and Meta, AKA 

881
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:44,640
Facebook. 
All right, so we can see that TV

882
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:47,800
has gone down about 25% since 
2016. 

883
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:50,720
These numbers run up to 2023. 
So it's a seven year period. 

884
00:49:50,720 --> 00:49:54,200
It's gone from 200 billion to 
around 150 billion big drop. 

885
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:57,080
Publishing's even worse. 
It's gone from just under 100 

886
00:49:57,080 --> 00:49:59,480
billion global revenues to just 
over 50. 

887
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:02,520
There's nearly a 50% drop in the
publishing space. 

888
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:07,400
And who's in the ascendant tech 
exemplified here by Meta. 

889
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:13,160
You've gone from things around 
25 billion revenue in 2016 to 

890
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:20,200
nearly nearly 150 in 2023. 
And actually, it's surpassed 

891
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:25,360
Meta's ad revenues, surpass the 
whole of the global fixed linear

892
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:28,160
television industry, all TV 
advertising. 

893
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:32,040
Meta surpassed it in 2024, and 
it surpassed the publishing 

894
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:35,920
industry in 2019. 
And what was the big driver that

895
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:38,600
really pushed it over the edge? 
It was COVID, wasn't it? 

896
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:42,800
That's what happened. 
And what does your man George 

897
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:45,600
Brock have to say about this 
from the Charity Journalism 

898
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:48,360
Project? 
Well, he says in this article 

899
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:51,760
from The Conversation, 
coronavirus is killing quality 

900
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:54,560
journalism. 
Here's one possible lifeline. 

901
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:58,800
He says the coronavirus crash 
should impel us as never before,

902
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:03,040
to look for new models, both 
editorial and commercial, and to

903
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:07,200
drive innovation, new ways of 
doing thing and imagination. 

904
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:10,400
Upper gear. 
Never, as the saying goes, let a

905
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:17,080
really good crisis go to waste. 
That's a really interesting term

906
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:19,880
there from George Brooke. 
Sorry, not Greg Brock. 

907
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:21,800
Look at me. 
I made a mistake on the slide. 

908
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:25,200
And ultimately, I think this is,
and I've used this term before, 

909
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:27,240
I'm going to use it again. 
I think that this is what we're 

910
00:51:27,240 --> 00:51:30,560
looking at, right? 
The side effect is the intention

911
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:33,600
to COVID lockdown amongst 
everything else, by the way, 

912
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:36,080
because I think the big tech was
ultimately a way of destroying 

913
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:38,960
the media ecosystem. 
COVID was a way of accelerating 

914
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:41,200
that destruction and that was 
deliberate. 

915
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:43,320
The side effect is the 
intention. 

916
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:46,760
Yeah, CT, thank you very much, 
Michael Driver for that. 

917
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:49,000
So much more to come on local 
media. 

918
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:54,720
This really is the battleground 
where the the global agenda and 

919
00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:57,680
local people are going to have 
to have to slug it out. 

920
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:00,480
So yeah. 
Absolutely. 

921
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:02,920
And I mean, it's so stark on 
that graph, you know, seeing 

922
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:06,200
that that leap up in 2020. 
Thank you very much, Ben. 

923
00:52:06,240 --> 00:52:09,160
Now, Diane, geoengineering, they
will say they're not going to do

924
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:10,040
it. 
They don't plan to do it. 

925
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:14,800
What are they planning to do? 
Well, I think we have some very 

926
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:17,360
solid evidence of what they are 
planning to do and what they are

927
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:19,560
doing already. 
I want to start out by 

928
00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:22,800
introducing this by talking 
about a UKRI, which is the UK 

929
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:25,720
Research and Innovation. 
It's a quango that controls the 

930
00:52:25,720 --> 00:52:28,040
majority of the public research 
funding in the UK. 

931
00:52:28,720 --> 00:52:32,280
UKR is non departmental public 
body sponsored by the Department

932
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:34,080
for Science, Innovation and 
Technology. 

933
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:37,320
It is the largest research 
funder for public funding and 

934
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:40,320
universities in UK. 
As I said, they ensure public 

935
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:43,440
funding is invested in research 
that apparently will benefit the

936
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:46,680
whole of the UK and provide a 
clear return on investment for 

937
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:48,800
hard working taxpayers. 
At least that's what they say on

938
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:52,280
their website. 
They have 9 different research 

939
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:55,080
councils, mostly organised by 
subject areas. 

940
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:58,160
They have one area that's called
Innovate UK, which sounds like 

941
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:02,040
one for been some of their 
recent funding and it's you 

942
00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:04,640
know, it's a lot of money, but 
some of the biggest projects in 

943
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:07,880
recent years has been for 
example, the COVID AstraZeneca, 

944
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:13,320
COVID jabs, clear energy 
projects, AI development and a 

945
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:16,840
lot of work projects as well. 
So for example, one called the 

946
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:21,680
Europe that gay porn built 1945 
to 2000 that was awarded to 

947
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:25,240
Birmingham City University for 
almost 850,000 lbs. 

948
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:28,760
On the 4th of April there was a 
press release coming out that 

949
00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:32,600
said that £13.9 billion of 
research and development funding

950
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:36,400
had been unveiled to both in A 
to boost innovation and jobs and

951
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:40,840
growth and 8.8 billion of this 
was going to go to UKRI for 

952
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:42,680
distribution to these 9 
councils. 

953
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:46,480
The Science and Technology 
Secretary Peter Kyle was quoted 

954
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:50,160
in this press release and he 
said, quote, R&D research and 

955
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:53,160
development is essential to 
fulfilling this government's 

956
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:57,280
plan for change, whether in 
improving lives across the UK 

957
00:53:57,280 --> 00:54:01,080
and beyond through new life 
saving drugs, helping us build a

958
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:05,960
cleaner, greener future, or in 
exploring beyond our planet to 

959
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:09,320
unlock new discoveries that keep
us healthy, safe and prosperous 

960
00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:12,080
and much more besides. 
But actually, if you look at the

961
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:15,800
real numbers, the government has
cut the funding for UKRI in the 

962
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:19,600
new budget allocation with £300 
million less than in the last 

963
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:20,960
budget. 
And considering inflation, 

964
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:22,840
that's actually a significant 
amount. 

965
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:26,560
So that makes it interesting 
that in the Government announced

966
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:30,160
back in February that Professor 
Sir Ian Chapman had been 

967
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:35,120
appointed the next CEO of UK RI 
with a renewed focus on economic

968
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:37,560
growth. 
Lord Balance, the Science 

969
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:41,400
Minister, said that Sir Ian the 
new CE OS leadership experience,

970
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:44,160
scientific expertise and 
academic achievements make him 

971
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:47,000
an exceptionally strong 
candidate to lead UKRI in 

972
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:50,640
pursuing ambitious curiosity 
driven research as well as 

973
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:54,360
innovations that will unlock new
benefits for the UK's people and

974
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:58,160
drive our plan for change. 
We also thank Dame Adeline 

975
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:01,960
Leiser, I'm hope I'm saying that
correctly ahead of her stepping 

976
00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:05,520
down this summer, recognising 
her pivotal work in guiding UKR 

977
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:08,880
I3 challenging times, notably 
during the COVID pandemic and 

978
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:12,360
through the U KS return to 
participation in Horizon Europe.

979
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:15,560
So Horizon Europe is European 
wide public research funding 

980
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:18,200
scheme that we had been taken 
out of for a few years because 

981
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:21,640
of Brexit. 
Dame Leiser as we can see here 

982
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:26,120
on the slide is predictably a 
World Economic Forum contributor

983
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:29,680
and her most popular piece for 
the WEF is called What should 

984
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:34,680
motivate scientific research. 
Going back to 12th of March 2025

985
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:37,520
and UK Column news, Charles 
presented a really interesting 

986
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:41,240
segment called the Net Zero 
Scam, now involves planetary 

987
00:55:41,240 --> 00:55:44,960
solvency and geoengineering. 
It started looking into the 

988
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:48,040
Centre for Climate Repair at the
University of Cambridge and I 

989
00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:51,520
had a feeling that this would be
a good start to help look at 

990
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:53,480
what actually gets funded by 
UKRI. 

991
00:55:53,720 --> 00:55:56,840
And of course view engineering 
is a topic of great interest to 

992
00:55:56,840 --> 00:55:59,560
our viewers. 
So as I said, there are 9 

993
00:55:59,560 --> 00:56:02,320
research councils within UKRI. 
One of them is called the 

994
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:05,560
Natural Environment Research 
Council or I'll call it Nerk. 

995
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:08,880
It funds a lot of climate change
research at universities. 

996
00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:12,240
It announced last year that it 
would it would be funding for 

997
00:56:12,240 --> 00:56:18,080
£10.5 million from 2025 to 2030,
a project called Modelling 

998
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:22,040
Environmental Responses to Solar
Radiation Management or SRM. 

999
00:56:22,240 --> 00:56:25,360
So that means blocking out the 
sun to keep temperature down 

1000
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:27,480
like we need at lower 
temperatures here in the UK. 

1001
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:31,840
These specific points under the 
funding would include climate 

1002
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:36,600
impacts of stratospheric aerosol
intervention, which is spraying 

1003
00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:37,920
with skies. 
I guess you could say that 

1004
00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:41,840
climate effects of marine cap 
lab brightening using natural 

1005
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:46,280
analogues and mining of existing
data to understand SRM and the 

1006
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:50,640
climate impacts of other novel 
or lesser studied SRM 

1007
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:52,880
techniques. 
So essentially they are going to

1008
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:55,840
measure the cooling potential of
these different options so that 

1009
00:56:55,840 --> 00:56:59,160
we have a better idea of which, 
if any, should be explored 

1010
00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:01,040
further. 
They said that they would only 

1011
00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:03,760
be doing modelling and not 
actually applying techniques 

1012
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:08,280
with this funding. 
So talking to Professor Sean 

1013
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:11,760
Fitzgerald, who is the director 
of the Centre for Climate Repair

1014
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:15,000
at the University of Cambridge, 
I really like this quote. 

1015
00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:17,080
If we if those of us who 
actually know what 

1016
00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:20,360
decarbonization might apply, he 
actually said in relation to 

1017
00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:24,720
this funded project, I'll be so 
happy if we've decarbonized so 

1018
00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:27,400
quickly that we don't need to 
apply this research. 

1019
00:57:28,520 --> 00:57:31,840
So the Centre for Climate Repair
is one of the major recipients 

1020
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:35,280
of this £10.5 million of 
funding. 

1021
00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:39,240
So it's worth noting as well to 
go back into looking at the 

1022
00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:40,840
history of where this all came 
from. 

1023
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:43,760
There are some government 
statements that we can see. 

1024
00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:45,680
So these will links will be in 
the show notes. 

1025
00:57:45,680 --> 00:57:48,360
Under the Coalition government a
few years ago, there was a 

1026
00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:51,240
policy paper published stating 
the government's view on 

1027
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:53,880
greenhouse gas removal 
technologies, which is really 

1028
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:55,360
what they're saying this all 
does. 

1029
00:57:55,600 --> 00:57:59,680
And solar radiation management, 
it's said, quote, greenhouse gas

1030
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:03,040
removal and solar radiation 
management are terms describing 

1031
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:06,400
a range of technologies that aim
to counteract human caused 

1032
00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:09,560
climate change by deliberate 
large scale intervention in the 

1033
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:12,360
Earth's natural systems. 
They are sometimes referred to 

1034
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:14,880
as geoengineering or climate 
engineering. 

1035
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:17,320
And they said in order to 
deliver on the commitment that 

1036
00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:20,840
was made by the UK by signing 
the Paris Agreements, the UK has

1037
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:23,240
legislated for net 0 emissions 
by 2050. 

1038
00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:26,160
As we know, the Committee on 
Climate Change have made it 

1039
00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:29,360
clear that greenhouse gas 
removal will be essential to 

1040
00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:32,440
realising this target. 
So they think that they will be 

1041
00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:35,960
having to use these techniques 
to offset remaining emissions in

1042
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:38,560
the sectors where it is most 
difficult to cut them. 

1043
00:58:39,080 --> 00:58:42,280
Specifically, the Comedian 
Climate Change Report, which was

1044
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:46,520
published in 2016, talks about 
what need what need to be done 

1045
00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:51,200
specifically, and it said that 
solar geoengineering proposals 

1046
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:55,120
include spraying reflective 
particles into the upper 

1047
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:58,880
atmosphere, stratospheric 
aerosols that again spraying us.

1048
00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:03,640
This process occurs naturally 
during very large volcanic 

1049
00:59:03,640 --> 00:59:07,600
eruptions such as Mount Pinatubo
in 1991. 

1050
00:59:08,240 --> 00:59:10,640
Now I have a video clip here 
that mentions this Mount 

1051
00:59:10,640 --> 00:59:13,720
Pinatubo eruption. 
It's from a seminar by the 

1052
00:59:13,720 --> 00:59:16,280
Centre for Climate Repair, which
is the organisation we're 

1053
00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:18,880
talking about that received part
of this 10 minute 10 and a half 

1054
00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:21,520
1,000,000 lbs of funding at 
Cambridge University. 

1055
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:25,360
This talk was given on by 
birthday the 28th of March 2025.

1056
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:28,600
The seminar was called Climate 
Interventions. 

1057
00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:32,160
Colon a distraction or in a 
necessity question mark. 

1058
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:35,000
This portion that we're going to
see was from Hugh Hunt. 

1059
00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:38,360
Hugh is the deputy director of 
the Centre for Climate Repair 

1060
00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:40,400
and a professor in the 
Department of Engineering at 

1061
00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:42,960
Cambridge. 
He starts here talking about 

1062
00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:45,360
another scientist called John 
Shepherds. 

1063
00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:48,760
Let's hear what he had to say 
about John and about spraying. 

1064
00:59:50,840 --> 00:59:56,600
Sadly I never met him but he he 
died a while ago. 

1065
00:59:56,600 --> 00:59:57,560
John. 
'S not dead. 

1066
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:01,280
Just point of information. 
John's not dead, he's happily 

1067
01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:05,440
living in Snape. 
Well, that's news to me, really.

1068
01:00:06,160 --> 01:00:09,680
Oh, sorry, John, can we edit 
that up? 

1069
01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:12,360
Oh, really? 
OK, fine. 

1070
01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:17,040
Well, that's a bit embarrassing.
Oh well, John. 

1071
01:00:17,120 --> 01:00:21,920
OK, well, so John famously wrote
at A at a conference this thing 

1072
01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:24,320
which has become known as the 
napkin diagram. 

1073
01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:26,320
And I've got a napkin here and I
drew it out. 

1074
01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:30,160
The napkin diagram. 
Funny, if you Google napkin 

1075
01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:33,160
diagram this is what you get. 
You know you get this thing 

1076
01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:37,520
about geoengineering. 
Napkin diagram says that 

1077
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:40,680
temperature on the left hand 
side, time on the horizontal 

1078
01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:42,840
axis. 
Business as usual, BAU. 

1079
01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:46,720
We're going to, things are going
to get pretty bad pretty quick. 

1080
01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:51,040
Emissions reductions alone, as 
Oliver was saying, is not going 

1081
01:00:51,040 --> 01:00:54,920
to happen quickly. 
Carbon dioxide removal, you 

1082
01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:57,280
know, again, that's going to 
take a bit of time to. 

1083
01:00:57,760 --> 01:01:00,840
To to get going, but we're going
to need to do it. 

1084
01:01:01,080 --> 01:01:04,520
But whatever happens, we're left
with this, this hump, this 

1085
01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:07,680
overshoot as it's called, where 
we want to be able to do 

1086
01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:10,760
something like solar radiation 
management to keep the 

1087
01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:13,520
temperatures down. 
Emissions reductions alone is 

1088
01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:16,320
not enough. 
Now I was involved in this SPICE

1089
01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:19,920
project, as Sean said, 
stratospheric particle injection

1090
01:01:19,920 --> 01:01:24,200
for climate engineering. 
Where we learnt from 1991, Mount

1091
01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:27,800
Pinatubo erupted in the. 
In the Philippines and caused a 

1092
01:01:27,800 --> 01:01:30,720
degree of cooling or thereabouts
for a year or thereabouts. 

1093
01:01:31,160 --> 01:01:33,880
Could we imitate that in some 
way? 

1094
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:39,720
And so our spice project was 
looking at how we might use a, a

1095
01:01:39,720 --> 01:01:43,280
tethered balloon, perhaps to put
some stuff into the stratosphere

1096
01:01:43,640 --> 01:01:48,680
to, to imitate the, the active 
effect of the volcano. 

1097
01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:54,320
So the good news is John is 
dead. 

1098
01:01:55,320 --> 01:01:57,880
The bad news is that he was 
involved in a project called 

1099
01:01:57,880 --> 01:02:00,520
stratospheric particle injection
for climate engineering. 

1100
01:02:00,800 --> 01:02:03,240
But as I said, they're only 
apparently only doing modelling 

1101
01:02:03,240 --> 01:02:05,640
of blocking out the sun with 
this particular project. 

1102
01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:09,360
But what would it be look like 
to apply this actual research? 

1103
01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:12,720
So I've got another final short 
flip here from Douglas Mcmartin 

1104
01:02:12,720 --> 01:02:15,800
at Cornell University talking 
about blocking out the sun and 

1105
01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:19,280
spraying the skies. 
In principle, you could do 

1106
01:02:19,280 --> 01:02:21,960
something in space that's 
prohibitively expensive. 

1107
01:02:22,040 --> 01:02:25,720
Almost certainly marine cloud 
brightening is the next most 

1108
01:02:25,720 --> 01:02:28,920
frequently discussed idea. 
The picture here is of ship 

1109
01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:31,000
tracks off of Europe's Atlantic 
Coast. 

1110
01:02:31,400 --> 01:02:34,440
So that's formed by the 
pollution from a ship 

1111
01:02:34,680 --> 01:02:37,920
interacting with water vapour in
the atmosphere to form a cloud. 

1112
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:40,880
And you could. 
In principle, do that with by 

1113
01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:43,160
spraying salt water into the 
clouds as well. 

1114
01:02:43,680 --> 01:02:47,000
The this is less well 
understood. 

1115
01:02:47,680 --> 01:02:50,280
It's actually one of the biggest
uncertainties in climate science

1116
01:02:50,280 --> 01:02:52,720
is how clouds and aerosols 
interact. 

1117
01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:57,600
Stratospheric aerosols spread 
globally, so it's inherently a 

1118
01:02:57,600 --> 01:03:00,280
global solution. 
Marine cloud brightening is a 

1119
01:03:00,280 --> 01:03:02,560
little different in that you 
could do it in a much more 

1120
01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:05,800
targeted regime. 
That doesn't mean the effects 

1121
01:03:05,800 --> 01:03:09,000
would stay in a specific local 
area, but they could certainly 

1122
01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:11,360
be focused there. 
And in fact, Australia is 

1123
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:14,280
looking at this right now for 
cooling the Great Barrier Reef. 

1124
01:03:15,160 --> 01:03:18,240
There's a third idea, which is 
cirrus cloud thinning that's not

1125
01:03:18,240 --> 01:03:24,640
actually reflecting sunlight, 
but avoiding trapping more heat.

1126
01:03:24,800 --> 01:03:27,720
Cirrus clouds actually trap 
heat, so they warm the planet. 

1127
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:30,800
And if you could thin them, that
would allow more heat to escape.

1128
01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:35,400
That's currently very uncertain,
but it has similar governance 

1129
01:03:35,400 --> 01:03:41,000
issues. 
I don't think we need to say 

1130
01:03:41,000 --> 01:03:44,040
just look up to see that they're
spraying the skies because we 

1131
01:03:44,040 --> 01:03:46,320
actually don't have evidence 
that ever whatever we see above 

1132
01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:49,240
us is actual spraying the skies.
But we can see that there are 

1133
01:03:49,240 --> 01:03:51,480
plans for this. 
And in case of interest, the 

1134
01:03:51,480 --> 01:03:54,000
Centre for Climate Repair is 
having a big conference on the 

1135
01:03:54,000 --> 01:03:58,720
26th to the 28th of June this 
year called Arctic Repair 2025. 

1136
01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:02,200
The main topics will be who 
decides, ethics, governance and 

1137
01:04:02,200 --> 01:04:05,480
public perceptions. 
Above the clouds, stratospheric 

1138
01:04:05,480 --> 01:04:08,400
aerosol injections. 
So there it is, the way ahead, 

1139
01:04:08,400 --> 01:04:11,560
the future of Arctic repair, 
bright ideas, marine cloud 

1140
01:04:11,560 --> 01:04:13,720
brightening and other 
interventions. 

1141
01:04:13,720 --> 01:04:16,200
So I'm wondering what those 
other interventions will be. 

1142
01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:17,840
I don't know, Charles. 
Maybe I should go to the 

1143
01:04:17,840 --> 01:04:19,760
conference and find out. 
Do you think they would let me 

1144
01:04:19,760 --> 01:04:24,400
in? 
That sounds a very good idea and

1145
01:04:24,400 --> 01:04:26,760
that will be a fine note to 
finish the news on today. 

1146
01:04:26,760 --> 01:04:30,800
We have run out of time, but it 
does seem an awful lot of time, 

1147
01:04:30,800 --> 01:04:32,640
effort and money to throw out 
something that the government 

1148
01:04:32,640 --> 01:04:37,400
insists it's not going to do. 
But we will have this and plenty

1149
01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:39,840
of sides to talk about an extra.
So if you are a member, please 

1150
01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:44,800
do stay on to join us for extra.
Also, if you are able, please 

1151
01:04:44,800 --> 01:04:48,200
tune into the interview with Sam
Bailey tomorrow at 1:00 because 

1152
01:04:48,200 --> 01:04:52,560
that really will be of great 
insight into an extraordinary 

1153
01:04:52,800 --> 01:04:55,000
situation. 
And otherwise, it just remains 

1154
01:04:55,000 --> 01:04:56,960
for me to thank Ben. 
Thank you very much indeed for 

1155
01:04:56,960 --> 01:05:01,240
joining me in the studio. 
Diane and Alex by video link and

1156
01:05:01,320 --> 01:05:03,320
you will all remain on the line 
for extra. 

1157
01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:05,800
So please join us again and 
otherwise we will see you for 

1158
01:05:05,800 --> 01:05:07,960
the news on Wednesday. 
Thanks very much indeed. 

1159
01:05:08,040 --> 01:05:08,600
Bye bye.