1 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:39,720 None. I want to chat to you a little 2 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:42,640 bit about the the G20, the summit that's coming up here in 3 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:45,680 South Africa. But I want to premise that with 4 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:50,080 something that has been grinding me up the wrong way. 5 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:56,280 And right now in South Africa, what is dominating discourse 6 00:00:56,640 --> 00:00:59,680 right across the entire media spectrum. 7 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:04,519 And I suspect that this is absolutely not organic, but it's 8 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:09,920 race and racial conflict, right, Because Trump pulled out of his 9 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,680 boycotting and then Argentinian president was in Emilay also 10 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:16,600 pulled out. So now it's you jokingly known 11 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:20,080 as the the G18I think this is great that they've pulled out, 12 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:22,600 but they've the reason why Trump pulled out is because he's 13 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:25,680 saying that white farmers are being attacked and ANC 14 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:26,920 government is doing nothing. Fine. 15 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:28,600 I'm not terribly interested in that. 16 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:34,960 What I'm interested in is why the discourse is so intensely 17 00:01:34,960 --> 00:01:41,560 focused on that and the ANC rather than the immense damage 18 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:46,520 that the G20 represents, because they're going to be discussing A 19 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:52,320 sustainable development and more specifically digital ID, social 20 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:56,080 credit scoring. Every Western country is 21 00:01:56,160 --> 00:02:00,640 experiencing the same thing. So we have, we have tensions 22 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:06,240 created within societies and those are being used to drive 23 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:11,000 wedges between people and that's being used as diversion for 24 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:17,360 what's actually going on and we are falling for it left, right 25 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:19,160 and centre. And so it's no different than 26 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:23,480 South Africa. The question is whether whether 27 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:30,120 it's possible for people to, to recognise, look, when we, when 28 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:33,000 we are looking at the information space at the moment 29 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:38,520 and we all recognise that, that we are in an information war, or 30 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:43,800 at least we give lip service to the idea that we recognise that 31 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:48,640 we're in an information war. Lots and lots of people aren't 32 00:02:48,640 --> 00:02:56,000 prepared to set aside whatever prejudices that they have in 33 00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:00,080 order to sort of look at the information war and look, look 34 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,600 at the, the, the players on the board. 35 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:06,160 Because, you know, we've been talking about this since the 36 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:11,840 censorship agenda really kicked off in 2017 or 2018. 37 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:17,920 Just take one organisation, the Institute for Strategic 38 00:03:17,920 --> 00:03:21,840 Dialogue, which because, and I only mention, keep mentioning 39 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:25,680 them because they are the ones that have specifically stated 40 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:29,960 what, to what degree they are funding influencers, that they, 41 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:36,280 they have thousands, thousands of influencers on the payroll in 42 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:40,040 order to do what? I mean, what, what, what, what 43 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:43,440 could the possible reason be for, for, for funding and 44 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:47,400 supplying to YouTube and the other social media platforms. 45 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:52,280 This number of people, it can only be to, to forward a 46 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:57,600 particular agenda, a particular ideology. 47 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:03,960 And, and so when we are in, but setting that aside, we're now 48 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:11,240 entering a period where that the effect of those real human 49 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:15,560 influencers is being amplified by increasingly automated 50 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:20,680 systems and AI and bots of various types. 51 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:25,560 So it becomes even more important for us all to be 52 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:28,480 actually looking at the information space and looking at 53 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:32,760 what we're being presented with and trying to work out what's 54 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:36,280 real and what isn't. So of course what we are saying 55 00:04:36,280 --> 00:04:41,960 is, is massive amplification of, of talking points which, which 56 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:47,360 are controversial, which caused tension, angst, anger in people, 57 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:51,680 which absolutely get people focused on the wrong target. 58 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:57,240 And that, you know, we, we've been heavily criticised, 59 00:04:57,800 --> 00:04:59,280 continue to be. I mean, I got an email 60 00:04:59,280 --> 00:05:03,600 yesterday, the day before from someone saying, yeah, look, I'm 61 00:05:04,280 --> 00:05:06,560 basically, I paraphrase, but basically saying that, you know, 62 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:09,640 I'm still watching your stuff, but I'm not, I'm not paying for 63 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:13,680 a membership anymore because because you're, you're too anti 64 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:15,640 Tommy Robinson and you're too pro Muslim. 65 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:19,520 And that's neither of those things is actually correct. 66 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:25,080 The point is we're saying to people, it's not a question of 67 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:27,200 being anti one thing and pro another thing. 68 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:28,560 We're saying to people, no, hold on. 69 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:34,240 What we're witnessing here is someone who's playing an 70 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:40,000 audience on one hand and we're seeing a a group of people on 71 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:44,280 another, on the other hand who have all the faults of any other 72 00:05:44,280 --> 00:05:48,320 group of people. But they also have a section of 73 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:55,080 their society which has been radicalised and funded and in 74 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:58,920 some cases armed by the governments that are our 75 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:03,960 governments. And so they have a, a, a bigger 76 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:06,840 problem than maybe other communities, but that doesn't 77 00:06:06,840 --> 00:06:13,280 mean that we have to, you know, take the entire and, and put a 78 00:06:13,280 --> 00:06:18,080 blanket blame culture on, on an entire community because that's 79 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:20,120 falling into the trap that's been set for us. 80 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:22,200 And, and that, that's the point that we're trying to make. 81 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,560 Now there's nuance in that and it's, but, but, but the way that 82 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:28,160 this is being presented and the, the way that you're expressing 83 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,080 this in South Africa, it's being presented the same way in every 84 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:33,120 country is that it's black and white. 85 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:38,080 And, and so that becomes a very relatively easy thing when 86 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:40,680 people are under pressure economically, they're under 87 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:44,080 pressure for a host of different reasons to just find a target 88 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:46,720 and go with that target even though it's the wrong one. 89 00:06:47,280 --> 00:06:52,400 It's a low hanging fruit. Well, it's, it's, but it's been, 90 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:55,200 it's been laid out for people and that's the problem. 91 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,520 And, and we've got to, we've got to start recognising that when 92 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:01,800 something's laid out for us that maybe that's not the right thing 93 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:05,000 we should be looking at. Yeah, it reminds me of that 94 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:07,520 whole Antifa thing in we was at Portland. 95 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:09,520 I mean, that was obviously not organic. 96 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:16,000 Well, you, but, but if you look back at, at, at most of the so 97 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:18,760 called colour revolutions and, and the, the so called 98 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:22,840 grassroots uprisings that have taken place right across the 99 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:24,640 world, they have been artificial. 100 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:26,480 And, and this is just another one. 101 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:29,720 And, and what so we're, we're not learning the lessons of 102 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:32,080 history again, in the sense that because it happened in that 103 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:34,080 country over there. Well, it, it's, it's different 104 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:35,600 here. Well, it's not different here. 105 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:39,440 It's exactly the same MO. Going back to the specifics of 106 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:43,840 the G20, I mean it the, the way I would consider it is that it 107 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:47,360 is, it is tossing out a, a classic false binary. 108 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:50,480 Because both of the things you're talking about, the 109 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:54,680 business that is actually to be discussed by the G20 and the 110 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:58,160 sort of apparent sideshow, they're both about the same 111 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:00,800 thing, which is everybody look this way at all the important 112 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:05,040 people who are making decisions about your lives and whether or 113 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:08,600 not you can get drawn in by one thing or the other is neither 114 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,040 here nor there. It's still a win if you're drawn 115 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:14,360 in as opposed to thinking, well, hang on a minute, do these 116 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:17,360 people and the stuff that they're talking about and 117 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:22,120 apparently stand for really have a legitimate bearing on my life? 118 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:24,520 And if not, then what am I going to do about that? 119 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:27,080 But, but there's always a sort of side job. 120 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:31,440 It's a bit like the the Will Smith slap at the Oscars. 121 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:33,919 It's, it's the sort of, it's the same thing. 122 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:36,960 It's just pulling people, pulling people's attention in 123 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:42,039 and and being able to generate that media interest that ensures 124 00:08:42,039 --> 00:08:46,360 that people are going straight over the most obvious hurdle, 125 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:50,160 which is do these people have any legitimacy? 126 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:55,080 And the answer really in most respects I think should be no. 127 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,120 I agree with with Trump's decision and I agree with me 128 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:01,720 that his decision. This is a great this is a great 129 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:03,720 thing. And imagine how wonderful it 130 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:06,160 would be if all countries boycotted it and there was no 131 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:07,760 summit. Do you do you think that would 132 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:11,160 change anything though? No, no, but. 133 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:12,600 Right. So so so. 134 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:17,640 It's a form of protest, though. But, but it isn't going to 135 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:22,920 achieve anything, right? And, and this, this I think is, 136 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:27,640 is, is one of the things that people should be thinking about 137 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:31,440 here. Let's say, let's say we, let's 138 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:33,000 say we deal with the migration issue. 139 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:36,720 Let's say we, let's say we close the borders today and let's say 140 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:42,080 we expel, you know, 2 or 3 million people from the UK. 141 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:46,840 What changes at that point? Nothing changes at that point 142 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:51,560 that, that we haven't solved anything by doing that because 143 00:09:51,560 --> 00:09:53,600 what, what are they, what are the problems here? 144 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:56,160 What are the problems that people are actually facing? 145 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:01,840 No high quality jobs. They're facing an energy cost 146 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:06,400 which is off, you know, off the planet that that's, that's as a 147 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:11,440 result of the, the, the structural, the structure of the 148 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:13,720 energy market, particularly in the UK and Europe. 149 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,200 We're net 0 isn't going to go away. 150 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:18,800 Digital ID isn't going to go away. 151 00:10:19,560 --> 00:10:23,480 None of these policy agendas that, that that we all recognise 152 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:29,680 are a massive threat to, to our very freedoms are going to go 153 00:10:29,680 --> 00:10:32,640 away. So what we're, what we're 154 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:34,680 dealing with, what, what we've dealt with. 155 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:37,720 If we win that battle, if people perceive that that's a battle 156 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:39,960 that they should be winning at this point, if that's the most 157 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:45,200 important thing for them at this time, if they win that battle, 158 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:48,000 what, what, what changes? Nothing, right? 159 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:50,960 Nothing because we still won't have enough reservoirs to 160 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:53,360 provide the water that we need. We still won't have clean water. 161 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:54,880 We still won't have roads at work. 162 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:56,800 We still won't have potholes filled in. 163 00:10:56,800 --> 00:10:59,720 We still won't have and you can go on with the list. 164 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,960 So nothing changes, right, Because the target's wrong and 165 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:07,040 everybody's focused on, on the guy in the hotel or the guy in 166 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,920 the, in the, in the temporary accommodation or the guy that's 167 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:13,280 getting £500 to go back to France or whatever, whatever The 168 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:14,960 thing is, that's, that's the focus. 169 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:18,520 And yet the people that are actually causing us the trouble 170 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:22,320 are just continuing on with what they want to do and nobody's 171 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,800 saying a word to them. It's, it is, it is fascinating 172 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:31,960 to me that you know, that, that people are so caught up in, in 173 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:36,320 one issue that, that they're quite happy for the rest to just 174 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:39,000 progress. And you know, and they'll say 175 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:40,680 that they're not happy. Of course, they'll say I'm 176 00:11:40,680 --> 00:11:43,240 against digital ID, but they're not, they're not focused on that 177 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:44,760 issue. They're focused on the, on the 178 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:46,560 migration issue. And that's the only thing 179 00:11:46,560 --> 00:11:49,240 they're focused on. And they're looking for it for 180 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:51,840 Tommy or for Raj to come and, and save the day for them. 181 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:54,840 That's not going to work because neither of those guys is 182 00:11:54,840 --> 00:12:00,400 criticising in any substantive way the the bigger agendas that 183 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:05,320 are at work here. I saw a, a sort of a microcosm 184 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:08,680 of this expressing itself a week or so ago. 185 00:12:08,680 --> 00:12:12,360 And I thought, gosh, that absolutely encapsulates the 186 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:16,280 incredible amount of time, energy and effort that goes into 187 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:20,600 something that yields nothing. And it was in, I was driving 188 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:25,120 through Gloucester and there was a, there was a gathering outside 189 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:29,200 the Ibis Hotel, which is being used to house migrants. 190 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,360 I don't know if the entire hotel is used for that purpose or 191 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:32,280 what. I'm not quite sure what the 192 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:34,920 specifics are. But, but, but it was a classic. 193 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:38,720 You had, it was on a sort of side road off, off of main road. 194 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:40,200 So it's kind of visible from the main road. 195 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:48,080 And at one side, sort of cordoned off by a police line, 196 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:54,160 were protesters carrying union flags and, and that sort of 197 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:57,760 thing making a, making a din. And that is literally what they 198 00:12:57,760 --> 00:12:59,520 were doing. I mean, if anyone was absolutely 199 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:01,840 be able to back that up, there's nothing, there was nothing sort 200 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:06,280 of constructive or significant being said, as it were, or 201 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:09,080 indeed done. And then there was a, there was 202 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,480 a gap across the hotel frontage where there was nobody permitted 203 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:13,680 to go. And then there was another 204 00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:15,600 police line. And then the other side of the 205 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:20,880 police line was a, a counter protest, let's say. 206 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:23,400 And the only banner that was legible to me from where I was 207 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:26,680 standing as I'd approached it was just a banner that said 208 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:29,960 diversity is our strength. So basically 22 groups of 209 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:33,400 people, two groups of brainwashed people determined 210 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:36,920 that they are, you know, opposing the people on the other 211 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:40,600 side of that police cordon with a, with a hotel full of migrants 212 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:44,160 in the middle. I mean, what possible result was 213 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:49,320 either of the the two sort of protesting parties expecting and 214 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:52,600 yet that had that was on AI think it was a Saturday 215 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:54,920 afternoon. It had drawn in. 216 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:57,920 I don't know how many 100, but I mean, quite significant number 217 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:00,920 of people who who have presumably dedicated quite a lot 218 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:04,880 of time and energy into organising it and getting 219 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:07,960 banners and stuff made and and and all the rest of it, as well 220 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:11,520 as the significant police cost. And they even had a helicopter 221 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:14,840 up for goodness sake. And, you know, and all this goes 222 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:17,640 on and then at whatever time it just gets collapsed. 223 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:19,480 I don't think there was any trouble. 224 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,600 But I mean, apart from anything else, what are the, what are the 225 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:24,000 people in the hotel supposed to think? 226 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,760 You know, there was no sort of formal or direct communication 227 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:33,120 with them from either party. So are they supposed to sort of 228 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:34,840 look out the window and think right, Well, those guys on the 229 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:38,560 right sort of, I think, I think don't like us and those ones do. 230 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:41,560 But actually what's going to be the material difference to our 231 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:45,840 lives as a result of this event? Absolutely nothing. 232 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:49,840 And and yet this is, you know, this is seen up and down the 233 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:53,240 land and and you think of the the similar thing was happening 234 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:54,880 in Epping at the Bell Hotel. OK. 235 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:57,400 That was triggered by a particular incident that would 236 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:01,080 have was misreported. And then when the hotel was 237 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:03,640 ceased to be used for that purpose, that was misreported. 238 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,520 Or at least that was that was a bit of chicanery in a way, 239 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:11,040 because in fact, that was nothing to do with the council 240 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:13,160 saying, right, yeah, OK, this is just not on. 241 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:15,560 We shouldn't be doing this. It was a planning issue. 242 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:20,600 And that's that was what created the the court to make that 243 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,600 decision. So it is it is completely 244 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:24,800 remarkable. I'm not, I mean, I'm not 245 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:27,400 suggesting that none of these people have valid views, but the 246 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:31,240 the problem that people have is knowing what to do. 247 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:35,840 And so going back to your point about whether the G20 is 248 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,680 boycotted or not, you know, you, you have to be able to plot that 249 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:42,240 whole way through and think, well, what, what is the result 250 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:45,640 of that? And my contention would be that 251 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:50,000 people's efforts that day in Gloucester or wherever else. 252 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:51,960 And I'm absolutely not saying, oh, you know, there's no point 253 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,000 in protest. I'm saying that you, you have to 254 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:58,920 really, really think about it and identify what your objective 255 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:00,400 is and how you're going to achieve that. 256 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:04,560 But just making a din outside a place where you perceive there 257 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:09,320 to be either a bad thing or a good thing is not in itself ever 258 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:13,280 going to change anything. And so, you know, the, the sort 259 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:17,680 of the organic debate, I mean, certainly in in other places I 260 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:20,840 have absolutely, definitely seen, you know, the, the sort of 261 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:25,800 the antifa element or the the opposing side totally, totally 262 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:27,600 confected. I mean that that is that is 263 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:29,760 beyond doubt that it's absolutely just render mob. 264 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:33,320 So so this whole thing, you know, we come back to it's sort 265 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:36,040 of it's on a weekly basis. It's just just look what look 266 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:39,120 what they're making people do, which is just to scrap with each 267 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,560 other and and completely miss the point of of everything, but 268 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:50,520 also totally sort of get rid of their own agency by by engaging 269 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:54,160 in these, I'm afraid to say, sort of pointless actions. 270 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:59,400 So that there is, you know, there's, there's got to be 271 00:16:59,960 --> 00:17:01,720 common ground. I mean, that's a good example on 272 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:05,960 the, on the migration thing, people who say diversity is our 273 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,640 strength and well, you know, if you've done nothing wrong, 274 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:10,200 you've got nothing to worry about. 275 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:15,160 I, I think you'd have to be quite bloody minded not to see 276 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:19,560 the privacy and data issues with digital identity, digital 277 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:22,839 currency, the centralisation of all that kind of information. 278 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:27,880 So, so it does seem like there, there really should be points at 279 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:32,960 which there is a sense of unity found and that in turn could 280 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,960 lead, lead to, you know, meaningful actions by 281 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:41,520 significant rejection of a particular scheme. 282 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:43,560 But I think we've, we've got a, we've got a long way to go 283 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:45,080 before that. And I think that, you know, 284 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:48,440 shenanigans around around the G20 articulates that perfectly. 285 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:50,600 You've just got a couple of people who are making a bit of a 286 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:54,680 making a bit of a fuss and and that's where the attention goes 287 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:57,200 rather than anything actually happening. 288 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:01,120 Well, anything actually happening is related to a 289 00:18:01,120 --> 00:18:03,840 question that my wife asked me this morning when I was talking 290 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:09,200 about exactly this. And she asked me, OK, now if 291 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:13,440 digital ID is coming via the banks and in the next couple of 292 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:17,400 years you will need to scan your QR code when you enter a bank or 293 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:21,560 even a restaurant or some sort of building or whatever, she 294 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,600 said. So she asked me what can you do 295 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:26,160 about it right now? Like what can you do? 296 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:29,920 Well, like the, the answer isn't easy, but the answer is pretty 297 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:33,000 simple. OK, it's not easy to to 298 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,000 implement, but it's simple to express. 299 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:38,400 We've got to be already building the parallel structures. 300 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:42,240 That means we don't need to engage with that system And and 301 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:44,920 that means, you know, well, I mean, it should be fairly 302 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:46,600 obvious to people what that means. 303 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,360 It means what we've been talking about for the every time, pretty 304 00:18:49,360 --> 00:18:52,520 much every time we've been on this this programme germ. 305 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,680 That means making relationships with farmers so we can get food. 306 00:18:55,680 --> 00:19:00,920 It means using cash, so and and building networks of people that 307 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:05,160 that can support each other. We'll have a need. 308 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:07,560 To engage with that system. Hold on. 309 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:09,520 Yeah, but Mike, that's that's correct. 310 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:12,520 And I I agree with you obviously and I'll I'll promote that. 311 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:17,240 But if the banks, they are retracting the amount of 312 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:18,960 physical cash that's in the system. 313 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:23,000 So every time you purchase something, a lot of that cash 314 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,480 disappears because it goes back to the banks. 315 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:27,600 So they can swap it out with digital. 316 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:30,080 What eventually that that physical cash is going to run 317 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:34,520 out? So people find other ways. 318 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:37,280 I mean, it's not like it's not, it's, it's not really rocket 319 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:39,360 science. German people were trading 320 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:41,480 before there was any such thing as cash. 321 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:46,480 You know, this, this is not something which is well, but you 322 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:51,320 know, even in a country like the UK where where we have this idea 323 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:56,360 of, you know, a monopoly on, on cash because the Bank of England 324 00:19:56,360 --> 00:20:01,280 is the only bank which is allowed to print money, that 325 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:04,400 doesn't stop people using some other form of token. 326 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:06,760 You know, you create your own money, there are local 327 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:09,640 currencies around this country which, you know, we can have a 328 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:13,520 discussion about, about who and what kind of people were driving 329 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:15,680 the idea of local currencies in the past. 330 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:18,880 But but these things are absolutely possible. 331 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,760 It just requires people to be thinking these this way and, 332 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:26,920 and, and getting organised. You know that that it is 333 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:30,640 possible to trade with people without cash. 334 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,720 If if without using sorry, the the government issued cash. 335 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:38,480 But the principle of cash is just an, an agreement between 336 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,520 people that some that a particular token has has a value 337 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,880 and, and that we swap this token for this this particular product 338 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:49,480 or this good. And, and, and, and so you create 339 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:54,240 a parallel infrastructure. I mean this, this is the, the, 340 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:57,760 the danger of this is, is recognised by government 341 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:01,520 because, because the UK government has has made the 342 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:06,680 issue of creating parallel structures and a part of the 343 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:10,480 definition of extremism and terrorism effectively. 344 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:15,400 So, so you know, they, they, there is a recognition at, at an 345 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:19,280 establishment deep state level that, that, that people getting 346 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:21,720 organised in this way is something which is undesirable 347 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,600 for them. So if it's undesirable for them 348 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:26,520 and they're putting it in their documentation that it's 349 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:29,200 undesirable for them, we should be saying to ourselves, well, 350 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:33,600 OK, let's get on with it. Getting people organised is it's 351 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,760 just an impossible thing. Everybody was organised during 352 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:40,880 COVID because they had something about which to rally around. 353 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,200 Right, right, right, right. But, but I'll just, I'll just, 354 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:47,240 yes, that's true. I'll just interrupt you there 355 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:50,320 because, because the issue there, the difference there was 356 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:53,440 the existential threat was right there in front of people. 357 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:58,400 At this point in time, the existential threat, digital ID 358 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,320 is still something for that which for most people is pretty 359 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:03,320 ephemeral. It's something which is starting 360 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:09,200 gradually to, to impact people's lives, but people are still it, 361 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,800 despite the, the lessons that may or may not have been learned 362 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:16,560 from COVID ocracy, people are still unwilling to, to look 363 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:18,760 ahead and see what's coming and act now. 364 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,600 They want, they want to wait for, for the, the, the thing to 365 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:23,840 be blattering them over the head before they're actually willing 366 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:27,200 to engage. So, so I think the, the what 367 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:30,520 needs to happen is that the people that do have that, that 368 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:35,320 foresight get themselves in a position that they can provide 369 00:22:36,360 --> 00:22:38,800 others with an answer when when the time comes. 370 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,520 In other words, don't give up. No, no, absolutely. 371 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:46,680 We can't give up. I think also one shouldn't 372 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,040 regard this as being a necessarily a sort of macro 373 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:52,360 issue for for all the reasons that we've been through. 374 00:22:52,360 --> 00:22:56,320 I mean ultimately you really just need to make your own plan. 375 00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:01,480 So if you have got somebody that you know will accept something 376 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:05,400 other than digital money for whatever it is that you want, 377 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:09,440 let's say fuel for your car that's not supposed to be on the 378 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:11,920 road anymore because it has a combustion engine. 379 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,760 You only need to find one person that's willing to, to do a deal 380 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:22,080 with you and then and, and that will in turn spark a network. 381 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,000 I think that's how things, you know, these things start. 382 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:33,800 And to a certain extent, although yes, personally I am 383 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:38,440 sort of paying cash, well, I suppose pretty much exclusively 384 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:43,000 for things and and whatnot. I, I feel like there is, there 385 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:47,800 is a pretty good network in, in the UK of people who do have 386 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:53,080 skills and goods that would be absolutely willing if it comes 387 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,920 to it to create another system, however informal. 388 00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:58,560 And I don't think, I think this is the other thing. 389 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,640 I think in the first instance, there doesn't doesn't need to be 390 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:05,600 any great sense of sort of formality to it. 391 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:09,280 We're, we're not talking about the necessity for a centralised 392 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:13,280 national system, thank goodness. I mean, I also find it slightly 393 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:17,960 ironic that that it is cash, which of course has no inherent 394 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,640 value that we've become so, so wedded to. 395 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,280 And yet, you know, we, we talk about gold and silver quite a 396 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:26,320 lot. But I think still everybody's a 397 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:29,200 little bit reluctant to consider that you might actually end up 398 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:34,800 spending or trading something that does have a value. 399 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,520 But it's, you know, it, it is not that difficult to imagine. 400 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,040 I mean, the way I look at this, I think now and OK, this, this 401 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:47,160 is yet to be demonstrated by concept or proof of concept, but 402 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,000 but I see this as an absolutely massive opportunity. 403 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,160 You know, if there there will be people out there who absolutely 404 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:57,040 do have the skills and the wherewithal to create. 405 00:24:58,120 --> 00:24:59,160 Yeah. I mean, you know, either a 406 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,320 parallel system, if that's what one wants, call it, or a 407 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:03,480 template for, for doing something differently. 408 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,800 I mean, in effect, not, not that I'm sponsoring this, but but 409 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,080 cryptocurrency is a very, is a very good example of that. 410 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,040 You know, somebody's just created a different system and 411 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,480 anyone can do that. But but the point is, it can be 412 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:19,120 done. We don't need to look to 413 00:25:19,120 --> 00:25:22,000 governments or enormous corporations just to make plans 414 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:24,280 for us. And equally, we don't have to 415 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,640 have the whole country fall in line for us to think, Oh, right. 416 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,680 Well, OK, now I can do that. Just you just make the going 417 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,200 yourself, you work out what it is you need and, and how you can 418 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,760 go about doing that. And I, I really do think that 419 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,960 there is a way that you would not, you know, not in absolutely 420 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:40,880 every respect. Of course, I do concede that I'm 421 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:45,480 not being, I'm not being over overly idealistic about it. 422 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:47,200 I, I would hope are overly optimistic. 423 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,680 I think, I think there is the degree of realism. 424 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:53,480 But then again, do we, you know, if people really sat down there 425 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:55,960 was sort of pencil and paper and went through every single 426 00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:01,720 element makes contribution to their live lives, do we really 427 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,520 need all the stuff, all the things, all the, you know, 428 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:06,440 accoutrements to our lives that we currently have? 429 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:10,240 Probably not. I mean that is the existential 430 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,960 question though, because I think it comes down to convenience and 431 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,640 ease of living. You know, if the, if the banks 432 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:23,760 want you to be verified with a digital ID and you don't want 433 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,680 that, then you have to, you know, not bank with them. 434 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:32,840 But the problem then comes in, you will need those networks 435 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,640 already set up, you know, in advance so that you can operate. 436 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:41,320 So for example, here in South Africa, there's no law requiring 437 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,400 anybody to be vaccinated for anything, right? 438 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,880 So you don't have to, you don't have to by law, get an injection 439 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:48,920 in your arm for anything. MMR doesn't matter what it is, 440 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:54,200 nothing. However, the private sector can 441 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:58,880 implement, you know, vaccination mandates by proxy. 442 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,680 They'll, the schools might say, you know, you don't have to be 443 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,400 vaccinated, but they won't accept your child. 444 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,480 Yeah, But hold on a second. Who, who, who says that that 445 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:12,120 this is the way to live The, the the convenience, the convenience 446 00:27:12,120 --> 00:27:14,560 agenda is, is laid down in front of us. 447 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,560 It's it's convenient. You can, but but who says that 448 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:25,040 is the the right way to be? Why, Why are we why are we as, 449 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:30,360 as people looking at, at the world and saying this is not 450 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:32,880 right, It's not being run properly. 451 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:38,280 It's the what's being offered is something that I don't like, but 452 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,800 I'm still willing to consume what they give me. 453 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:42,720 I'm still willing to. It doesn't matter whether it's 454 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:49,760 media Hollywood, you know, I, I want the convenience of a mobile 455 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,960 phone, a, a, a smartphone and, and all the stupid social media 456 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,680 rubbish that I consume, right. How much, how much of what is, 457 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:01,840 is, is consumed on social media has any value to any one of us? 458 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,880 And yet so many people spend their entire lives. 459 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,880 I mean, they, they even use terms like doom scrolling. 460 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,600 I mean, you know, it's, there's a recognition there that this is 461 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:16,720 not healthy and we choose bad health. 462 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,800 We choose it, we choose it and going to McDonald's, we choose 463 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:23,000 it and going to KFC, we choose it and using pharmaceutical 464 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:27,200 products, we choose bad health. You're talking about the, the 465 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,160 worry that that your child not might not be accepted in a 466 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,400 school. Why would you want the education 467 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,480 that they're providing? Why would that matter to you? 468 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:40,520 So, so this is, this is about, we've had, we've had this 469 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,440 conversation so many Times Now, Jeremy, this is about the 470 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:49,160 choices that we make and, and our personal ideology, our 471 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:53,080 personal morality, our personal view of the world. 472 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:55,880 And and it begins. It begins there. 473 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:00,640 Actually on that, sorry, just just to get because I think 474 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:06,000 Jeremy, am I right, you've, you've interviewed Tom Cahan, is 475 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,000 that right? Tom Cahan, Yes, a couple of 476 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,000 times. Have you talked to him about 477 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,200 education? He believes in homeschooling and 478 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:14,440 not and not being a part of the system. 479 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:15,440 Yeah. Yeah, All right. 480 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:20,680 The example that he that he puts in, I don't know how many books 481 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:25,000 he's written, but a book of his about education, it's absolutely 482 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,080 fascinating. And and it's, it mirrors 483 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:31,520 exactly, let's say the, you know, the correlation between 484 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,120 the exponential rise in the number of pharmaceutical 485 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,760 products and their consumption and poor health, poor health 486 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,960 outcomes, whatever, you know, this is, they absolutely are 487 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:46,240 running side by side, Tom Khan writes. 488 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,560 But this amazing discussion he has with somebody about the 489 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:54,680 necessity for a formal education, and I will condense 490 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,880 it, but basically it is to say that before any formal schooling 491 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:03,160 started, the population of America by percentage had 492 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:09,680 largely read the writings of Thomas Paine and now no one has. 493 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:14,680 And, and this was cited as being the the sort of the way in which 494 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,920 you would determine whether somebody was sort of engaged 495 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,400 with life and educated because, because they could actually 496 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:24,920 understand what was being written and how important it was 497 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,040 to the lives of people to have digested this particular text. 498 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:33,120 So the point of it is that it's, it's just like spending money 499 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:34,840 that actually is not worth anything. 500 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:40,840 We are so confined by our ideas that, you know, education does 501 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:45,320 actually deliver what it's supposed to when in the vast 502 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,320 majority of cases it simply doesn't. 503 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:53,080 I, I mean, I, I consider that of, you know, of myself and, and 504 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:57,960 I think it's very hard to look at, to look at education, 505 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:04,200 certainly in the United Kingdom as being for the benefit of 506 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:08,480 really anyone but the state and, and the corporate entities that, 507 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,680 that need slaves to make the, to make the wheel turn. 508 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:17,080 So I think, I think the, that the scale on which we have to 509 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:22,920 reconsider is so much bigger than than we're liable to do, 510 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,800 because so often the flames do appear to be licking at the 511 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:28,320 front door. And you, and, and therefore 512 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,280 that's what you've got to concentrate on rather than 513 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:36,560 stepping further back to, to, to sort of, you know, Crow ball, 514 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:41,040 the analogy yet further. And, and, and really think about 515 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:45,400 all of it and going, you know, and, and again, the, the, the 516 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:49,880 delight of doing that is that you can go back in time to 517 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,560 points at which none of this stuff either existed or 518 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:59,440 mattered. I went to the, I went down to 519 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,480 Portsmouth recently to the, to the docks, the historic docks, 520 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:05,520 which is where they've got, you know, some of the exhibitions 521 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:07,520 there are amazing. But the Mary Rose, which was 522 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:12,480 brought up in 1982, I think they, they got it up off the 523 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:14,320 seabed and found 19,000 artefacts. 524 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:21,720 But, but in there are some newly minted coins, gold coins, you 525 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:23,840 know, hardly ever in circulation. 526 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:28,080 And you know, you just look at that and compared with a, with a 527 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,480 coin or a banknote today, obviously it's crude, it's not 528 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:35,160 sophisticated, but for the people that used it, it was that 529 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:36,880 was enough. That was absolutely fine. 530 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:38,560 It meant something. They all knew what it meant. 531 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:44,640 So for us to similarly create, whether it be currency or or 532 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:46,760 whatever, it is a different system. 533 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:52,160 As long as you have in your your own sort of supply chain for 534 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:57,520 your life, you have an unbroken link of people that will do. 535 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,080 You know with you that the sort of trade and interaction that 536 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,440 you want to and that it makes sense to all of you, We're fine 537 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:04,520 and to hell with the rest of them. 538 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,880 I just realised that I'm coming across as a complete normie. 539 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,720 I'm obviously trying to provoke conversation. 540 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:18,440 Yeah, I'm on the same side. A friend of mine says he's got 541 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:22,360 two kids. He he he decided with the second 542 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:27,080 child not to register his child's birth. 543 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:29,280 All right. So in other words, no ID number, 544 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,360 no ID book, nothing. Doesn't want the government at 545 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:34,600 all to know that this child exists. 546 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,440 Obviously won't go to school. Both kids will be home schooled. 547 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:42,000 They stay in the middle of of the country, you know, in the 548 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:46,800 middle of nowhere kind of thing. And he calls it unlearning. 549 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,520 All right, So that's what he's going to teach, teach his kids. 550 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:55,120 But the reality is that that child is going to be incredibly 551 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:59,480 restricted from general life. Sorry, this friend of yours 552 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:01,080 lives. Yours lives in South Africa. 553 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,200 Yes. Yeah, so, so just so as I 554 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:09,800 understand this, your your friend lives on the biggest, the 555 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:14,520 continent on the planet that can has has war to give than just 556 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,600 about anywhere else. Is that really that they can't 557 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:19,080 get on a flight? Is that a problem? 558 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,880 I mean, they could, they could spend their entire, they could 559 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:25,120 spend their entire life travelling from from one part of 560 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,639 Africa to the next and never get back to the starting point 561 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:31,800 before they die. You, you, you could well, well, 562 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:33,760 I mean, how do you cross the border without an ID? 563 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:35,199 That's what I'm. That's what I'm asking. 564 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,520 Are you suggesting that there's border guards on every point? 565 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,280 On every. I mean, you're talking about. 566 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,520 I get where you're going. Right. 567 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:48,639 So, so, so you know, the question, the question is 568 00:34:48,639 --> 00:34:52,040 whether, what, what, what restriction that actually 569 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,840 provides at the end of the day, because it's only a restriction 570 00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:58,200 if you want to be part of of the system that that's being 571 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:02,720 provided and and there there are opportunities outside of that. 572 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:08,680 It's a brilliant example. The passport everybody we will a 573 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:12,120 totally conditioned to think, I mean crack it sort of going full 574 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:14,160 circle on the migration thing because look, look how that 575 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,400 works out. But but, but the idea that you 576 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,600 do that you do have to go through a particular port to 577 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,440 show your documents to make sure that everybody knows that you 578 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:24,760 know, you're going into another country. 579 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,760 I mean, that is a very, very, in relative terms, that is a very 580 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,960 new system that we all think is the only way to do it. 581 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:36,400 And then crikey, there are, yeah, crossing land borders in 582 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,480 Africa. Not a not a bother. 583 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:43,040 You do not need to go through an immigration base that I can. 584 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:48,200 But I mean, I mean without, without making it sound utopian, 585 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,280 it's not easy. This is an incredibly difficult 586 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:57,920 path. Well, I mean, you sort of have 587 00:35:57,920 --> 00:35:59,080 to qualify that really, don't you? 588 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,240 Yeah, I I agree. OK, wait, wait, wait. 589 00:36:01,240 --> 00:36:03,760 Charles, Charles. Charles, can you you Charles, 590 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,840 can you operate right now without an ID? 591 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,280 Well, you see the the problem with that question just just to 592 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,000 be difficult is of course I, I am where I am. 593 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,720 So, so let's say a lot of the stuff that I've sort of set up 594 00:36:20,720 --> 00:36:26,120 would have required, would have required the things that we're 595 00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:27,560 some of the things we're talking about or. 596 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:31,760 Whatever, Sorry, I I say ID, but I yeah, no. 597 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,560 No, no, I know what you mean. But it is. 598 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:37,560 But it's, but it's very odd because the whole thing sort of 599 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:41,040 comes from from nowhere. Because in the first instance, 600 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,680 you know, if you do, if you register a birth and I I'm sure 601 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:45,920 it would be the same in South Africa. 602 00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:47,760 But if you register a birth in the United Kingdom, you get a 603 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,840 birth certificate. But, but a birth certificate is 604 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:55,400 not proof of identity. So the the whole thing is 605 00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,920 predicated on very, very flimsy nonsense. 606 00:36:59,720 --> 00:37:04,320 I can't, I actually can't quite remember how you do get to the 607 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:08,960 stage of proving, as it were, your identity. 608 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,680 You know, because because once here it's your if you have a 609 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:16,440 passport or if you have a driving licence, then supposedly 610 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:18,240 you can prove your identity with that. 611 00:37:18,240 --> 00:37:20,640 But but you see, you don't. You're not obliged to have a 612 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:24,320 passport or a driving licence. And since the birth certificate 613 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:28,800 is not proof of identity, actually the whole system is. 614 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:34,080 It is fake, really. It's totally fake and it's, it's 615 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:39,520 predicated on, for example, the idea that you give a, an honest 616 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:44,120 answer to your name whenever you apply for, yeah, an account with 617 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,680 the electricity company in, in the property that you happen to 618 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:48,480 be inhabiting. And that that seems to be 619 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:53,400 sufficient to to to identify you with a bank, for example. 620 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:58,640 So, so you know the the whole identity thing in the in the 1st 621 00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:03,040 place is completely without foundation in many cases because 622 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:07,320 as you say, your birth certificate is not proof of 623 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,160 identity. It's often used as, as one of 624 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:15,520 the elements in, in identifying yourself to, to an agency of 625 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:18,720 some kind, but it's not. So it's, it may be taken as 626 00:38:18,720 --> 00:38:21,720 proof sometimes, but it's not legally proof. 627 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:29,240 So, so, so yeah, I mean, it's, it's, I mean, we all know that 628 00:38:29,240 --> 00:38:31,960 how easy it is to, to create a fake identity. 629 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,000 The, the intelligence agencies do it all the time. 630 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:38,160 The police, I guess do it for if they're going undercover. 631 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:40,880 So it's not hard to create a fake identity. 632 00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:45,960 The question is, the question is whether we should be doing much 633 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,240 more of that. Maybe that's another option for 634 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:50,560 for fighting back. Yes. 635 00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:55,520 In other words, rather than one person out of 100,000 not 636 00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:59,120 registering the kids, 100,000 people should not be registering 637 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:00,400 the kids. I mean, what's actually going to 638 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:01,840 happen? What will the state do? 639 00:39:02,720 --> 00:39:04,480 Yeah, quite. That's it. 640 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,960 And, and you know, the whole idea of proving your identity 641 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:13,600 is, is, is, again, it's, it's utterly sort of disingenuous. 642 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:15,920 It's not, it's not because anyone needs to know who you 643 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:17,240 are. They just need to know what 644 00:39:17,240 --> 00:39:20,200 you're doing. And, and those are, those are 645 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:22,880 two typically different things. I mean, I think I'm, I'm, I said 646 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,200 before how ridiculous it is now that, you know, we're, we're 647 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:29,640 sort of being led to believe that biometrics and stuff is so 648 00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:31,280 important because otherwise you just can't be sure. 649 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,960 And, and the first time I travelled for any great length 650 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:39,920 of time through Africa, it was on a passport that was just on 651 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,440 the cusp of running out. So it was, it was nearly 10 652 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,280 years old. So I had a picture of a, you 653 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:48,120 know, whatever it was a picture of an 8 year old child. 654 00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:51,280 And it was when they, when they used to record height in the 655 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,440 passport. And I think I was, you know, 656 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:58,720 whatever I was, I was nearly 50 centimetres taller than the than 657 00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,000 the thing. And yet no, at no point did any 658 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:05,920 of the many many. Border officials that I handed 659 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:08,680 it to, no one looked at it and thought, OK, but that's just 660 00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:13,080 that's, that's a photograph of a short child and that's not who 661 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:15,040 you are, but we'll let you through anyway. 662 00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:21,640 So, yeah, it's, we have, you know, that, that's what's being 663 00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:27,640 used to convince us that these technological advancements are 664 00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:31,680 for our, you know, for our, well, OK, convenience, but, but 665 00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,560 sort of security and safety. Well, it's absolute rubbish. 666 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,400 I mean, yeah, you've, you've, you've spoken to Ian Davis 667 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:42,640 recently about specifically this on the, on the digital identity 668 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:46,000 front. And it's just, yeah, you know, 669 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:48,160 it's, it's marketing. The whole way in which this 670 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:51,200 stuff is being sold is utterly, utterly disingenuous. 671 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:55,400 Absolute rubbish. There's an interesting history 672 00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:58,520 behind digital idea. I don't know if you know who 673 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:03,280 actually came up with the idea. It it'll be on one of my 674 00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,680 upcoming shows. I spoke to a guy who runs a tech 675 00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:10,120 company, the states. I, I, I won't go into it now, 676 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,040 but he was chatting briefly about the guy who came up with 677 00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:21,600 the idea was about 20 years ago and it was noble in its intent. 678 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:24,440 And then it was quickly bought by Microsoft. 679 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,960 The idea of of the state giving you an ID seems quite 680 00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:33,680 contradictory, but the idea of a decentralised personalised 681 00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:38,200 identification it does seem like a good idea. 682 00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,000 Sorry, you saying that's something there for that's not 683 00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:45,680 controlled by the state, Yes, right. 684 00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:47,360 OK. Yeah, well, again, that's 685 00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:52,200 another another sort of element that again doesn't really get 686 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,800 considered. Why should it be, you know, why 687 00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:57,880 should it be the state telling me who I am? 688 00:41:58,240 --> 00:42:01,320 In effect, by virtue of the fact that they that they issue the 689 00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,800 birth certificate or the passport or the driving licence 690 00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:09,760 to say yes, you are this person, surely it's up to me to decide 691 00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:12,920 if I am that person or indeed who I say I am. 692 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:18,880 The original question was do we need to, or at least at some 693 00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:20,800 point. The question was, do we need to 694 00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:24,520 engage with the system? We got into a conversation about 695 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:29,080 how we might not, but of course we, we can still engage with the 696 00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:33,160 system and with a view to disrupting it. 697 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:38,200 And of course, in order to do that, we've got to probably get 698 00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:41,600 ourselves fully engaged with digital ID and so on. 699 00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:47,280 But you know what, I've, I've told this story many, many 700 00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:52,720 times, a lot of years ago, a guy in Plymouth here not paying his 701 00:42:52,720 --> 00:42:58,000 council tax and, and trying to establish on what basis he had 702 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:00,800 to pay his council tax and what was the process that would he 703 00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:03,480 would go through if he refused to pay and, and so on. 704 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:10,000 And he took it to the court and, and, and we attended as, as, as 705 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,720 witnesses on the day just to see what happened. 706 00:43:12,720 --> 00:43:17,200 And, and the first thing that that I realised was as I walked 707 00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,280 into the court was in the FOIA outside the actual courtroom, 708 00:43:21,240 --> 00:43:26,080 there were half a dozen council employees there to try to 709 00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:29,720 negotiate with anybody that turned up at at the court that 710 00:43:29,720 --> 00:43:32,640 day to, to try to set up a payment plan or whatever it was. 711 00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:36,240 But the last thing they wanted was anybody actually going into 712 00:43:36,240 --> 00:43:40,000 the court and offering any kind of defence they wanted. 713 00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:42,600 They they were effectively hiring the court for the day. 714 00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:45,040 And they wanted to, to go in with their spreadsheet of non 715 00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:48,880 payers and to get a blanket order from the court that that 716 00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:52,920 they could proceed with, you know, you know, taking those, 717 00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:56,280 those names to, to bailiffs or whatever to, to recover the 718 00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:58,680 debt, the debt collection agencies and so on. 719 00:43:59,960 --> 00:44:03,680 So it was obvious that on that particular day, I think there 720 00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:07,960 were something like 1500 people on that list that a 1500 people 721 00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:11,880 that turned up to the courtroom that day that the entire system 722 00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:15,920 would have collapsed on under. It's a weight, right. 723 00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:20,320 And, and you know, no matter what we think about the 724 00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:23,960 legislation that is in place at the moment with respect to 725 00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:29,960 digital to data protection, sorry, for example, the 726 00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:32,560 legislation is there. And one of the tools that is 727 00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,840 provided by that legislation is, is something in this as far as 728 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:38,160 the UK is concerned, other other countries have similar 729 00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:41,320 situations. One of the things in the UK that 730 00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:44,520 that we have at our disposal is, is the subject access request 731 00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:48,640 where we can make an application to any, any body, whether that 732 00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:53,400 be a corporate body or a public body and say what is the data 733 00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:56,360 that you hold on me? And they are required to within 734 00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:59,160 20 working days provide you with a copy of everything that they 735 00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:03,760 have about you. Now if we if we do that in a 736 00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:08,280 systematic way, we bring the entire system to a halt. 737 00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:13,640 Now, whether they can implement some form of artificial 738 00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:18,160 intelligence based mechanism for dealing with these at some point 739 00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:20,920 in the future, they can't do it today. 740 00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:25,720 So, so, you know, the, the aim should be if, if, if what we're 741 00:45:26,240 --> 00:45:29,120 if what, what we're saying is that we don't like this tech 742 00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:31,440 technocratic system which is being developed. 743 00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:34,920 The aim should be at the very least to slow it down. 744 00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:37,880 And the way that we slow it down is that we keep it so tied up 745 00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:44,840 and knots responding to, to requests and, you know, similar 746 00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:49,400 sorts of things that, that, that it can't, you know, people can't 747 00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:51,960 progress the thing because they're so busy all the time. 748 00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:55,680 You know, a lot of right back at the very beginning when, when 749 00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,400 the, the supermarkets in the United States and the United 750 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:03,440 Kingdom started producing loyalty cards and they were, you 751 00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:06,960 know, you got your loyalty card, which allowed them to then 752 00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:10,280 associate your specific, the specific items that you were 753 00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:16,960 buying with your identity. People were, people were saying, 754 00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:20,680 well, this is, this is insane. Looking back on it now, it seems 755 00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:23,320 utterly tame compared to what we have at the moment. 756 00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:27,320 But, but people were sticking those cards in the post to each 757 00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:33,440 other and, and deliberately attempting to, to make the data 758 00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:35,720 that was being collected worthless to the supermarket. 759 00:46:35,720 --> 00:46:40,440 Because, you know, one week I was buying stuff in Plymouth, 760 00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:43,040 the next week I was buying stuff in Manchester or the next week I 761 00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:46,240 was buying stuff in Washington, DC and it was buying different 762 00:46:46,240 --> 00:46:48,760 stuff every time. So, so you know, the, the, the 763 00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:51,640 principle behind that was to poison the database. 764 00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:54,600 And, and this is, this is exactly the right approach. 765 00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:57,600 It's and it's something that that nobody is really doing at 766 00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:00,480 this point, I think. Because people are scared. 767 00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:05,000 People got to stop being scared, you know? 768 00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:07,960 People, people can be scared and and sit and shiver in the 769 00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:10,840 corner, but that's not going to stop anything, you know? 770 00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:15,520 So what are you scared of? Are you scared of what's coming? 771 00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,320 Well, it isn't here yet, so don't be scared of it now. 772 00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:20,880 Fight it. And then it doesn't. 773 00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:23,320 Then it never arrives. I mean, you know, we've got to 774 00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:25,600 make a decision. It all comes down to us making 775 00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:27,520 individual decisions. We talked about this so many 776 00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:30,480 times. I think that is probably the 777 00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:33,760 ultimate solution, Mike, when when people say ah, but. 778 00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:36,280 No, the ultimate solution, Jeremy, is that we have to. 779 00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:39,040 We have to be fighting on every front. 780 00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:43,400 We can't, we can't just do the, I'm going to buy stuff from a 781 00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:45,920 local farmer. I'm going to find a local way, a 782 00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:48,520 way to trade locally with, with like minded people. 783 00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:51,240 We can't just do that. We've got to also do the other 784 00:47:51,240 --> 00:47:52,640 thing. So, you know, I think in 785 00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:57,040 reality, to some degree we, we should be certainly working to 786 00:47:57,040 --> 00:48:00,840 minimise any interface that we have with, with the, with the 787 00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:02,560 system. But, but to some degree we've 788 00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:06,480 got to, we've got to make a decision, you know, how much 789 00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:09,120 interface we do have with it and, and what we're going to do 790 00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:11,840 with that interface. And, and in the meantime, I 791 00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:16,240 think we should be using it as much as we can to to disrupt it 792 00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:19,600 as much as we can. Also, I think I think it is 793 00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:22,720 interesting to consider because sorry, we, we rather moved on, 794 00:48:22,720 --> 00:48:25,320 but you're the friend you're talking about who's going to, 795 00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:28,560 who's planning to bring up a child in effect with no, you 796 00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:30,080 know, sort of outside of the system. 797 00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:35,000 I mean, you know, ultimately I think it comes down to their 798 00:48:35,720 --> 00:48:39,760 sense of purpose and happiness, joy and love in life. 799 00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:45,360 Why? Why should we associate being 800 00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:47,520 outside of all the control mechanisms that we want to get 801 00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:53,000 away from, be synonymous with having a sort of miserable, 802 00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:55,800 unfulfilling life? I don't see that that it should 803 00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:59,520 be at all. I think yes, OK, we have got 804 00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:04,680 used to being able to do whatever it is, buy something 805 00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:06,960 with a credit card and immediately get on a flight to 806 00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:09,080 the other side of the world or or this that and the other. 807 00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:14,280 But to say that we derive a higher pleasure in life from 808 00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:19,360 being able to do that, I think is I think it's a hard one to 809 00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:23,200 argue. So I think just again, a re 810 00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:28,560 evaluation of, of what a fulfilling life may actually 811 00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:32,080 entail is, is, is something that we should do. 812 00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:35,760 It is interesting how frequently it comes back to the sort of 813 00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:38,120 rural urban divide, because I think a lot of, a lot of what we 814 00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:42,480 do talk about people are necessarily constrained by, by 815 00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:47,880 where they physically are. And, and I'm, I, I'm, you know, 816 00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:49,880 I don't think anyone should be sort of criticising other 817 00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:54,520 people's life decisions, but I have a bias inherent just 818 00:49:54,520 --> 00:50:00,200 because I, I do live outside of urban areas and, and pretty much 819 00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:04,160 always have done. And therefore I can see for, for 820 00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:08,880 my part, I, I can see exactly how a life can work outside of 821 00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:14,760 the urban environment. And, and to me really, you know, 822 00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:18,120 given certain, certain conditions, like if you, if you 823 00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:22,600 have got sufficient materials with which to educate yourself, 824 00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:27,160 your family, this and the other, and you've got a source of food 825 00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:32,560 and a means of transport, then, you know, you sort of are 826 00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:37,560 sorted. How that quite compares to or in 827 00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:39,960 an, in a, in an urban environment, I don't really 828 00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:41,680 know. I think I I think what would be? 829 00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:42,720 Very interesting. Sorry. 830 00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:47,120 The other thing, Charles, is that there is a practical 831 00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:51,200 reality here. Other other land masses have 832 00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:54,200 better opportunities. But in the UK, if we've got 70 833 00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:56,520 million people here and everybody wanted to live a rural 834 00:50:56,520 --> 00:50:58,040 life, that that ain't going to work. 835 00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:00,360 Exactly. Yeah, No, totally. 836 00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:02,040 I mean, and that's that's the thing. 837 00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:05,120 We we, we do return to the sort of where we are, where we are. 838 00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:08,640 What I, what I was about to say was I would be very interested 839 00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:15,240 to hear from somebody who feels that they are in a way protected 840 00:51:15,240 --> 00:51:16,480 from all the things that we're talking about. 841 00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:18,960 But that they do live in a, in an urban environment, that they 842 00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:22,440 do have access to food. That they may not be growing on 843 00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:25,280 their own property, but that, you know, whether fire and 844 00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:26,440 allotment and this that and the other. 845 00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:30,280 And that they are in in some ways perhaps bartering or 846 00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:33,200 entering into different types of trade agreements and are not, 847 00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:36,000 and don't, you know, don't feel that they're reliant on the 848 00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:38,360 sorts of things that I think in the, in the countryside, I don't 849 00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:40,760 feel I'm reliant on. It'd be really interesting. 850 00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:43,760 I mean, I there must be people there who who do sort of fall 851 00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:46,920 into that category, but I, but I'm not sure I really know any 852 00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:50,480 interesting area. Well, we're coming in for a 853 00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:54,920 landing and just to horseshoe to the start of the conversation. 854 00:51:55,680 --> 00:52:01,800 This is the kind of conversation that I wish more S Africans were 855 00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:05,360 having rather than black, white, black, white, black white the 856 00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:09,440 whole time. Yeah, I mean, I'll keep saying 857 00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:11,800 this. We got to stop thinking in terms 858 00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:16,600 of black, white, left, right and thinking about looking up and, 859 00:52:16,720 --> 00:52:20,800 and at who is actually pulling the the puppet strings on so 860 00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:26,720 many and, and actually working out that black, white. 861 00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:30,160 We're actually on the same side and and. 862 00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:33,080 There is no left, right? Precisely. 863 00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:36,240 Great chatting, Charles. Mike, I'll catch up with you 864 00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:37,280 next week.