Hello, I'm Charles Mallett with the UK column interview today.
I have with me Jeremy Nell, or you may know him as Germ, A
cartoonist and podcaster par excellence and a man who is
accustomed to asking the questions.
But today the boot will be on the other foot and he's going to
need to come up with the answers.
Germ, thank you very much for joining me and a very, very warm
Welcome to UK column. Charles, thanks for having me.
I just want to say I I actually forgot how to pronounce your
surname. I'm so glad you said Mallet
because I was going to say Malay and make you sound very fancy.
If you're in the Northern hemisphere, it depends which
side of the English Channel you're on.
If you're on the right hand side, then you'd have been
completely correct. So I, I don't think that's,
that's not going to count against you.
But actually you bring me neatly as though we've rehearsed it
into the first question, which is to do with division.
Because what I'd like to do is, is go back some time and I'd
like your perspective because, you know, this is an
international audience that's going to be listening to this.
But the UK column audience is is largely British.
You're South African. In your perspective as somebody
growing up in post apartheid South Africa, how did the
country deal with that process of reinventing itself after
apartheid? Just technically, I also grew up
in apartheid, not just post apartheid, but during the height
of it, which was in the 80s. It's a, it's an interesting
question. It's a very, very layered
question because I don't think South Africa has come out of it
with any great degree of success.
There's the term like rainbow nation, which I think Nos
Mandela coined. It really doesn't mean anything.
It's just, it's just marketing hype.
The, the, the country in many ways is better than what it was,
but it's also worse than what it was.
It just depends on who you're asking.
You know, if you look at the data, one of the big claims is
that it benefited white people. And the irony is that it, you
know, economically and financially, you can clearly see
that it didn't because the, the incomes were not only peaking,
but they were, they were decreasing.
Because obviously if you have a system that's isolated from the
world, you, you will run out of resources.
You, you, you need to integrate with the world in order to grow.
And once, once apartheid was ended and sort of quote unquote,
democracy began in South Africa, you can see that salaries all
over the place increased, including white people.
So you could even argue that post apartheid was better for
for white S Africans than apartheid.
But crime is also exceptionally high as a result post apartheid.
And you kind of wonder why is that?
Is that domestic or is it a foreign backed?
I don't know. But crime is unbelievably out of
control in South Africa. And you know, if if you live
here, you have to be quite streetwise.
Now, I'm not saying that it's a war zone.
And if it were, I would have emigrated.
I, I, you know, I love, I love South Africa.
It is my home. But I also want to point out
that social media is not a mirror image of reality.
It's sort of a, it's an amplification of an extreme
minority view. If you only followed X, you
would think that this is a complete war zone.
And it's just, it's just a, it's, you know, Cowboys and
Indians gun shootouts every single day.
No, that's not the case at all. It's I, I think race relations
are by far better than what the media will have you believe.
And I think it's only on the fringe.
It's in certain areas, it's in pockets.
And certainly, certainly there's a lot of political influence in
that. Because I think if you leave
people alone, they tend to get on fine.
And, and, and I think that is maybe not just endemic to South
Africa, but probably everywhere. You know, if you just leave
people alone, they tend to, they tend to be fine.
You know, people get on people don't want to fight with, with
one another, which is why I think a lot of the stuff is, is,
is externally triggered. So I'm, I'm, I'm still happy
living in South Africa despite all the warts and, and I really
do appreciate the, the, the fact that we can trade with the rest
of the world and travel. I mean, it was very difficult in
the in the 80s. Yeah, absolutely.
And in fact, you, you know, you bring me on to what I wanted to
talk about from exactly that, that, that, that reality, but
specifically to do with not being, I suppose for want of a
better word interfered with. And you cite, well, you, I think
you described South Africa as being a, a broken country in
some respects. And therefore the, the
resilience that that builds. You just explain a bit more.
What do you mean by that? And how?
How do you see that taking effect, sort of, either in a
good way or a bad way? Yeah.
So I've often said that I prefer South Africa as a failed state.
And South Africa is a failed state.
I think by by any metric, in fact, I think every African
state is effectively a failed state.
And I like that because what it means COVID was a great example
of this, is that it showed that an inept, ineffective, useless
government wasn't nearly good enough to impose, you know,
hardcore vaccine mandates. I think South Africa was
probably one of the lowest vaccine uptakes in the world.
And Africa as a whole generally had a very, very low vaccine
uptake during the COVID era. Whereas I've got, you know, ex
expat friends who live in Canada and Australia and even the UK,
and they all said the same thing to me.
You know, it sucks being, you know, in a country with a highly
effective government because they've become very, you know,
efficient at, at things like mandates and, and locking you
down. So there's a, there's a strange
ironic sense of freedom within chaos, if that makes sense.
That's so that's kind of what I mean.
And, and I guess a byproduct of that, Charles, is that it forces
you to become self reliant. It forces you not to trust the
state because the state isn't really going to be there for
you. You, you kind of, you kind of
have to make things happen for yourself and, and it's so it, it
forces you into a, into a state of or into a sense of, of
community driven collaboration. You know, you have to figure
things out because you know, when you got potholes in the
roads and you got St lights that don't work, you have to then go
and full those potholes because the government is not going to
do that anytime soon. And you have to figure out how
to make the streets, you know, look better.
And so generally, I think there is a, a, a sense of, of
independence, therefore that comes with a failed state.
Yeah. And I think that certainly for
the UK audience, I think there's something that people really
need to bear in mind, that sort of distinction between a failed
state and perhaps a failing state.
You know, here we're very much in the pothole zone, but not
having gone as far as people doing something about it, that
there is still, I think, an enormous reliance upon the state
in whatever sort of form it takes.
But so on that, you know, that that greater picture with with
resilience, I think people are very quick to bemoan how
pathetic younger generations are and how they don't, you know,
they aren't growing up to learn the lessons of the past and this
and the other. What's your take on that in not
not just South Africa, but sort of Southern Africa or Africa,
you know, I mean, other parts of the world.
How do you see that? Something I have noticed is that
there is a, there's a strong victimhood mentality that exists
particularly in Western countries where, where they
have, where they have everything.
You, you sit back and you moan, you become a keyboard warrior.
You know, look, this is, this is broken.
Somebody must do something about it while I enjoy my my
McDonald's and this it's it's OK.
I mean, that is the way it is. But I think because, because
this is yo yo effect of how societies work.
Excuse me, that decline will at some point occur.
And then you wonder how will those people handle that
decline? I, you know, I sometimes joke
and I say where Europe is now is where perhaps South Africa was,
you know, two decades ago and, and lessons that that Europeans
could learn, you know, simply by looking at, at our history and
perhaps even the states. I don't know.
I don't exactly know that the, the, the, the, the dynamics in,
in the US. But what, what I do feel is that
I don't know also if it applies to Eastern countries.
This is this is outside of my understanding, but I can
certainly speak to some degree in the West.
And I also want to add a disclaimer.
I don't know if South Africa or African countries fall under the
western label. I suppose it depends on on what
sort of criteria you you want to use.
Maybe I can say I am western, maybe I can say I'm not western,
I don't know. But one thing is for certain is
that I see a lot of lazy, lazy people coming out now, the sort
of post 2000 generation, huge amounts of sort of this TikTok
Facebook Reels mindset where you just kind of your, your hand
motion becomes part of your, of your lifestyle.
You know, you just scroll, scroll, scroll and you'd end up
doing nothing. And so this is there's a strange
yo yo effect in which people once were very much driven to
solving their own problems, are now relying on other people to
solve their problems, outsourcing their thinking,
outsourcing who they are, outsourcing their identity even.
And, and I find that happening here also, certainly in the
middle to upper classes. I don't know, Charles, if that
is if that is a geopolitical thing or cultural or if it's
just the nature of, of, of wealth.
I don't know. What do you think?
Well, certainly all pervasive and I think that's the that's
the issue. I suppose it's just interesting
to see how abruptly what you describe of the South Africa
that you grew up in can. Be.
Swept away by by a movement like that.
And I think I would say from a British perspective, there's
that hope that you want to look at another country and see that
it is different and it is responding differently to those
pressures. Because of course, the other
thing in a way, and that with, with the either smaller or
failed idea of the state. What, what that does create for,
for so many African countries is masses of space for the so
called philanthropists or NGOs or whoever, you know, and they
are able to wreak havoc for want of a better term.
I mean, is that, is that something you see?
And how, how's, how's that sort of in South Africa now?
Yeah, it's not so much, I think a consequence of a failed state,
but a consequence of democracy. So wherever you have a
democratic state, in my view, you have a an open gate to
infiltration of the state itself because you have financial
interests, you have corporate interests, you have technocratic
public private partnership interests.
You know, if you look at, if you look at South Africa's sort of
economic heart, you'll see that our minds, which is part of that
heart are very much not South African.
They, I mean, I think our biggest mine is called Anglo
American. And, and we, we can, we can, we
can go down, down various rabbit holes to see who's behind or at
the top of of those mines. But what's interesting is just,
that's not unique to South Africa.
That's unique to wherever there's a, a democratic state.
So I I'm very, very critical of democracy as a whole, but I
mean, I don't think I'm special network.
Plato wrote about the problems with with the democratic idea
long time ago. So I think by by virtue of a
country being democratic, it opens itself up to the
infiltration and interests of of those who don't really care
about sovereignty. Because at the end of the day,
the president of a democracy is just is just rent seeking for at
least four or five years. And so his entire existence is
based around those four or five years and hoping that you can
get another four or five years through excellent marketing.
Yeah, very well put. And of course, the, the other
point about democracy really is that it should be a system that
is accountable. And certainly for you, part of
holding a democracy or indeed a system to account has been via
your cartoons, which obviously you know, you've been doing for
a long, long time. Talk about your how you broke
into that space and what what pushed you to to do that in the
first place. Firstly, your opening there was,
was great. I think democracies also do have
a good side and they allow for or they should, they should
allow for the critique or the criticism of authority.
I mean, you, you can't do that in China.
Now, I like China for, for many reasons, but one of the reasons
that I don't like China is that you can't really criticise the
government. So yeah, you got to choose a
battle. So I, I would do terribly as a
cartoonist in, in China. Thankfully I can do pretty well
in South Africa because we have such a useless government that
they can't even sue me because it's just, it just doesn't
really work all that well, you know, in, in, in this, in, in
this kind of setup. So I can criticise the
government quite quite easily and, and quite freely.
In actual fact, I've got a lot more freedom in my work here
than I do in many countries. I would even go as fast saying
Charles, that I've probably got more more freedom in my work
than than in your country. Based on what I understand.
I could be wrong, but how I got into it was was really very
boring. It was just a case of I've
always loved cartoons from a kid.
I used to draw in my Bible in Sunday school and, and I
remember just wanting to, to, to just draw cartoons.
And when I, when I was retrenched from my corporate job
in 2005, I was working in sort of mobile research and
technology. And at that stage, smartphones
hadn't really come out yet. So they're still the old sort of
Nokias with, with buttons on them.
When I was retrenched because the whole industry was changing,
I figured, well, maybe I could make a career out of this.
I am a failed art student, so I had something behind me, but
perhaps it was pretty punk Rock, You know, to, to go into art
when you failed art and and I was advised ever to go into art.
So I thought, well, this is, this is quite rebellious.
Maybe, maybe I can make this work.
And and yeah, and I did and a bunch of editors sort of bit and
and I started having my work published and I wasn't really
making political comments or, or, or any type of sort of
current affair based based commentary at that stage until a
couple years later when when I was contacted by a, a major
newspaper and they wanted me to to draw daily for them.
And they said, look, we like your style.
Would you like to comment on the politics of the day?
And I said, look, I don't really even know where I stand or what
I believe in or anything like that.
And they said, and, and my editor at the time had a really
great comment, which I've never forgotten.
And he said, look, knock them down when they're up and help
them up when they're down. And, and that, that kind of
formed the foundation for, for, for what was going to be my
political career. And after that, I, I, you know,
I won awards and published books and eventually in the sort of 20
tens, I started formulating my kind of my ideological outlook.
However, I don't speak only for myself here, but I think my
ideological outlook completely changed around 2020, like I
think many, many others around the world, when you suddenly
realise, wait a minute, something's not right here.
So that's the, that's the sort of the, the backdrop of my, of
my cartooning story. And I mean, I've published, I
think close to 10,000 cartoons since then.
And, and they've been translated and been to different
publications around the world and all that.
So it just became a love that I just pursued, you know?
Perhaps hard to say with any certainty of hitting objectivity
in in hindsight, but but as that period of time developed before
we got to 2020, were you aware that you were developing in so
far as how you were thinking about things before you were
translating them into cartoon format?
Yes, I, I would have, I would have classified myself, I think
for the longest time as libertarian or sort of kind of
conservative ish. But I've come to realise that
those terms don't mean anything anymore.
Charles. A lot of the stuff just these
are just false dichotomies or as I forget who it is now, somebody
said a few years ago, false binaries.
But basically these are these are, I mean, we started off the
conversation about division. And I think these are
interesting divisions, left, right.
I don't think the people to the left and right of me are my
enemies. I think those who are trying to
take away my sovereignty and my, my ability to live a free life.
I think those are my enemies, not, not people who arguing
about gender because we can still, we can still chat about
that. And they're not, they're not
removing anything from me, you know, so, so I'll, I think at
that stage before 2020, I didn't really consider the, the sort of
interwoveness of the, of the international web of what's the,
what's the word I'm looking for, Charles, this, this sort of
deep, dark connectivity of, of the oligarchical hierarchy,
shall I say, of, of how things, for example, I would have
thought in, let's say 2016, this pick a year, I would have
thought that the Kruger National Park, which is our, our, our
big, our, our biggest game park and one of the biggest game
parks in the world. And I might add, probably one of
the happiest places in the world.
I thought that was just, you know, run by the government and,
and, you know, and, and it had people doing their best to, to
keep it operational post 2020. I, I come to realise through
research that it's not really run by the South African
government. It has UN fingers in it and it
has, you know, CITES, for example.
And it has so many other interests that don't really care
about animals or South Africa, but rather, I don't know, land,
possible land opportunities and other things.
You know, it's, it's, it's, it's never as simple as, oh, it's
just a park that's run by the government.
It's, it's, it's more complicated than that.
And that's the nature of everything.
Everything is more nuanced and more complicated.
And that's, and that's kind of where I found myself heading off
to 2020. Yeah, you, you certainly
haven't. We'll get to that in a second.
But no, you're absolutely right. And I think you're scratching
beneath the surface almost anywhere, and you will find
something that perhaps you didn't expect or you didn't want
necessarily to find. And you spoke a moment ago about
South Africa feeling more free than than the UK, perhaps in
terms of public publishing some materials and whatnot.
I mean, I think I would absolutely agree with you.
But on the censorship front, which you know is now such a hot
topic, particularly in this sphere.
It was that something that that you did battle with at all at at
that time, sort of prior to 2020, was censorship really a
consideration for you or indeed for the the media in South
Africa? Yes, I mean for the longest time
I was working in the mainstream media and the mainstream media
itself self censors. And in many ways, self
censorship is actually more destructive than a state
sanctions censorship, because what it does, I'm sure you'll
agree, excuse me, is that it causes a a collective sense of
silence of people not wanting to discuss anything.
And nobody's nobody's actually forcing them to do that.
They're just choosing not to speak about things.
And and so you start kicking the can down the road and you start
sweeping things under the rug. And you really shouldn't have
to. So I found myself in a situation
where I was self centering because there are, there are a
couple of things in South Africa that you just can't do.
And and then the publications themselves would also get
worried about certain things. And, and not even, not even hot
button issues like let's say I don't know unions, you know, I
found myself criticising unions and the, and the certain
newspapers would, would think this is a little bit, you know,
edgy. We're going to get too much
pushback from the unions. So let's not run something like
that, you know, or I found, for example, in 2020 before, I mean,
one of the, I think that was maybe the last year that I was
working in the mainstream media as a cartoonist.
I was drawing for one of the largest papers in the country
and I, it was just before lockdowns.
I think it was, I think our lockdowns came in the same week
as your lockdowns in the UK. And about two weeks prior to
that I drew our president pulling a mask over his eyes and
saying something along the lines of we are ready.
Because at that stage I kind of thought that this was a real
thing. I kind of thought maybe there's
a bit of overreaction, but it was a real thing.
The paper decided not to publish it.
They wanted a sense of this because I thought it was an
unfair criticism of the president, which is absurd.
But not just that. Two weeks later on live TV, he
did exactly that. He, he pulled the mask over his
eyes accidentally and he's, he fumble and it became a big joke
and a big meme. So that, so the joke was that in
many ways that I'm, you know, I the, what's the, what's it
saying with the, with reality becomes or, or, or humour
becomes reality or something to that effect.
But I had predicted accidentally what was going to happen and it
should have been published. It shouldn't have been self
censored. And it wasn't long after that
when when I was fired because the publication felt that this
was a serious thing and we shouldn't joke about it.
And that's not even state sanctioned censorship.
So now we now we see this, this, this weird domino effect of fear
perpetuating fear, which is I think very destructive.
Hugely saying that the self censorship, you're absolutely
right. And I think it applies to more
than just censorship because going back to lockdowns, I mean,
certainly what we saw here was the the insinuation that
something ghastly was about to happen and that the government
really desperately trying to hold back.
And then the next thing you knew was that organisations, and the
one that springs to mind here was the church was shutting the
door before it had even been asked to.
And so yes, you're, you're completely right.
And, and, and yeah, it's a very dangerous area that's on the
South. But this brings me into, you
know, what germ warfare really is, is all about, which is, as
you quite rightly describe it, the information war.
Now, I think my feeling is that it absolutely is an information
war. But in large part, the people
that are, I suppose, caught up in it, the the BLOB don't
appreciate that it's an information war because they
have no idea of the manipulation of the information that they are
receiving. Now going back to that time in
2020 and, you know, looking towards where you have gone with
germ warfare, what was it that that did push you towards, you
know, the direction you've gone in and, and realising to what
extent there was this information war.
I think the whole thing with the lockdowns, I think that was for
many people just a trigger. Like, for example, let's just
start at the most basic. I'd said a moment ago that our
lockdown started in the same week as your lockdowns.
How, how does that even happen? Is it just coincidence, which
the average quote unquote, normie would would think, Oh,
you know, that's just, it's just the government's caring about
the people. Well, most of the world did this
very coincidentally. Then in that case, I mean, it's
one hell of a coincidence that the presidents are just
announcing lockdowns all over the place using the same
language, social distancing, a term that I've never in my life
heard before 2020. It turns out that it was used in
a movie that came out I think in 2011 or 2012.
I think it's called Contagion, which I had never heard of.
And then I watched it during lockdown and it freaked me out
because it was exactly the same thing.
It was a corona virus outbreak. They had to, people had to get
locked in their homes and the solution was a vaccine.
I think it was was in the movie. It's freaky.
And I remember, I remember thinking, OK, all right, yeah,
virus from a weight market. My understanding at that stage
was extremely primitive. I thought, it's those disgusting
Chinese again, you know, with the with the, with the blood
everywhere and they filth, filth and and viruses and bacteria and
everything just, you know, jumping onto people.
I mean, that's kind of what I thought because I just had no
knowledge of what you know, of reality.
And then very quickly I started thinking about this, like what
northern Italy this is, this is weird outbreak.
And then suddenly Trump's announcing closure of, of
flights with China. And I'm, and I'm that stage.
I didn't realise that perhaps there's there's an anti China
narrative that's that's coming from somewhere and suddenly
everybody's getting locked down at the same time.
And then within a few months, I found myself questioning the
very nature of reality. Like what, how, how does this
even happen? How does the whole world do this
at the same time? There has to be some sort of top
down collaboration, you know, and, and then, and then then
when you start looking into it, you go, OK, I see here.
So The Who didn't. And then the you know, and then
you start, you start joining lots and lots of dots.
And then, of course, when you speak about it, you're not quite
sure what's going on yet. And people like it's just a
conspiracy theory. You're just a nut case.
OK, but explain, explain the most basic things you had.
How, how, and nobody's able to give an answer.
And so then you, you know, I find myself just digging more
and more and more. And then in, in my podcast,
which I started in 2019, just by the way, as an extension to my
cartoon work, it's just a, just an expansion of, of, of ideas,
which, which is what cartoons are, you know, they're just
ideas that are on paper. And so I decided to, you know,
put this into podcast form and, and then a guest might mention
something that doesn't seem in any way connected to the
coronavirus. And then suddenly that leads to
another train of, of thought that makes sense.
And then before you know it, Charles, I'm sitting, you know,
discussing concepts like like who controls Europe?
And it all started with lockdown, you know, and, and
then and then I suddenly realised, OK, so there must be,
there must be some truth to this.
I'm sure there's a lot of nonsense here also.
And so like a, like a civil got to philtre through what's,
what's true and what's not true. But, but the point is the, the,
the, the shadow that gets cast over this is that nothing is
really what it seems, whether by design or emergence or a
combination. But there's a lot of fabrication
of, of what you think is, is real.
And you suddenly you realise that the Matrix was not a movie,
but it was a documentary. You know what I mean?
I do I, I think a lot of the audience will, will absolutely
understand exactly what you mean.
But and so going back, you know, because that's such an
interesting transition period to go from having started a podcast
in 2019 and then and then to take that forward and realise
that your view was what it was from 2020.
But but those those around you that were contacts either within
or through the mainstream media, did did you find anybody there
that was similarly questioning things or was it was similar to
the to the UK where there was just, you know, there's, there's
kind of there's one way with this and that's that.
Very few, Charles, very, very few.
Nobody wants to be labelled. See, this is the problem.
People are very scared of, of, of being ostracised, you know.
So I, I'm trying to think where I got the, the, the concept of
the cathedral. I think it was Manches Mohlbag.
What's his real name? Forget now, a great sort of
philosophical thinker, but he goes by the name of Manches
Mohlbag online. And he, he wrote a lot about
something called dark Enlightenment and whatever else,
all these interesting philosophies, but he, he made a
very good analogy. He compared what we're talking
about now to the cathedral, calls it the cathedral.
And if you go against the, the doctrine of the cathedral, you
become an apostate, you get kicked out and, and what, what,
what, what makes the cathedral probably a combination of
government, media and academia. And that is not necessarily a,
a, a, a collaboration of the three that could all be working
independently, but the kind of they feed off one another just
by virtue of, of, of their position in, in, in the
establishment, in the established space and
conventional space. And so, you know, like the media
will, will reference academia when it's talking about
contagion or something like that.
And the government will, will amplify that by making
announcements, etcetera. And so they kind of all feed on
one another constantly. And if you question that, you
know, you, you get kicked out, you get shunned, you get called
a conspiracy theorist and people are very scared of that.
People don't want to be kicked out.
They don't, they don't know what to do once they're outside the
doors. You know, where, where do I go
from here? You know, now my people are
inside there and I'm actually, and I'm alone.
And so it's very difficult, very, very difficult to
challenge an authoritative view on something.
You know, this came from a, a, a weak market.
That was the view in 2020. This was a weak market.
Then towards the end of 2020, people started going.
But how old? And maybe it's a lab leak, which
I think is also part of a, of a, of a psychological operation to,
to some degree, but none nonetheless.
Anybody in 2020 saying maybe this was leaked from a
laboratory? No, no, no, that's just bonkers.
That's bonkers. But now it's official U.S.
government policy, it's no longer bonkers.
And now suddenly you have hordes of, of, of what I call personal
personality cultists because not everybody supports Trump as a
personality cultist, but there is a strong personality cult
that's attached to Trump. It's an amazing thing to watch.
They'll support, he can say anything.
And then suddenly they'll change their position that they
previously had and so, and now agree with him.
And so, you know, it's kicking the can down the road again.
Now suddenly the lab leak is, is a real thing.
But the point I'm making is that if you mentioned it in the
middle of 2020, you were considered a conspiracy
theorist, you know, and, and so, and So what, What I find is that
so few people want to go outside of that Overton window.
They don't want to, they don't want to go anywhere near what
would be considered unacceptable speech.
We need to be within the boundaries of acceptable speech.
I think it was Noam Chomsky who who said that a wonderful way to
control the narrative is by is by knowing where the boundaries
of the narrative are and encouraging fierce debate within
those parameters so that even people inside those parameters
look like they're arguing for what's true.
But meanwhile, the truth is sitting outside of those, you
know, those parameters. And, and, and I think that's a
classic example of, of what's been happening over the last few
years. People are scared to be outside
of that Overton window. They don't want to be outside
the the doors of the cathedral. And so therefore you'll always
find yourself as a minority view if you if you going against that
sort of conventional or established thought.
Yeah, indeed. And and on that, you know, going
outside of established thought, you've just referred to
psychological operations and you've spoken to an inordinate
number of people now by your podcast of all sort of colours
and creeds and philosophical beliefs.
What to you is at the heart of a successful psychological
operation? I mean, how is it done and to
what effect I suppose. I don't know.
I'm still trying to figure that one out.
I don't know, Charles, how it's possible that people around me,
and I guess you know, you'll say the same thing, I'm sure, but
how is it possible that so few people around me can see through
some of the stuff? How is it that the majority
don't how, how is it that you, we could climb on an aeroplane,
let's have 180 people or something and everybody's
wearing a mask. I'm, I'm questioning, they're
just wearing it, you know, OK, I'll, I'll wear a mask.
And, and they don't question it. They just think this is what,
this is what you must do. And the handful of people that
do go, this doesn't make any sense, You know, even if, even
if, even if it was a real virus, OK, let's just, let's just
assume that even if there is a real virus travelling around in
the air, a cloth mask does nothing in, in any sane person
knows this. You can just open up a book from
when you're at school, a biology book to, to see this, this, you
know, the scale of, of, of what these things are or claim to be.
But you know, everybody just like sheep, cattle lining up
for, you know, for the slaughter, they just happily
stand in the line and, and, and just go through the night.
And it's something that is, is that has been something I've
been trying to figure out. And that's why I've spoken to
people like Matthias Desmet and, and others, Peter Reagan also to
try and figure out how is it that people just don't question
things in the main, you know, why is it always, as Matthias
Desmet said, around 30% of people will, will question and,
and, and try and see beyond and, and will it ever go beyond 30%?
It doesn't really seem likely because if you notice now people
seem to be falling back into those, into those sort of
dreamlike states again when it comes to various, various
issues. Sudden, suddenly the people that
you thought were quote unquote awake are now, you know, falling
asleep again. And how like, how does this
happen? This is something I don't know.
It's, it's, it's, it's for me, it's fascinating.
And I certainly appreciate the input from people like Matthias
and, and people like Peter Brig and who, who, who they, they
talk about free floating anxiety and, and the need, the need then
to be LED and, and perhaps, perhaps that's what Yuri
Besmanov was referring to back in his great interview.
I think it was 19, ironically, 1984, I think it was with the G
Edward Gryphon. I think when you said that when
you have people in a state of anxiety or nervousness or, or,
or uncertainty, they're, they're malleable.
You can control them with a lot more ease rather than people who
are, you know, like, for example, the LGBTQ agenda is
about creating confusion with within identity.
When you, when you don't know who you are, you can become
controlled quite easily because you no longer have control over
yourself because you don't know what you who or what you are.
And I think that that can be expanded and amplified into into
sort of a collective also. And maybe maybe that plays into
the idea that that you just have masses of of sheep.
I don't want to say mass psychosis, by the way, because
my tears was very clear that it's not a psychosis
necessarily. It's more like a hypnosis.
And and people like David Icke, for what it's worth, have also
said much the same thing. Yeah.
And I think it's very difficult to go back and be certain about
anything that's written historically.
But of course, there, there is very little to suggest that
those percentages that you refer to have ever been any different.
And that human nature is just such that we are structured as
society to be predisposed to either behave like this or, or
like that. Now I yes, I mean you identify
something very pertinent with the, the suggestion that people
are, for want of a better phrase, sort of falling back to
sleep. How does that fit in with your
categorization of the various coloured pills?
You articulate, I think very well, the red, black and white
pilled sort of elements of the population.
How do you see that fitting in with the the falling backs of
sleep thing? OK, so so just for clarity, what
those pulls mean, they obviously come from the matrix.
The blue pull is it the world is as you think it is, right?
You wake up and what you see is what you get.
And of course, when you take the red pull them, the as the
metaphor goes, you you pull, you open the curtain, you pull back
the curtain and you see what's really going on behind the
scenes. But the problem with that, and
this is what sort of Internet culture has has kind of expanded
on because the the movie didn't really do this.
But if you get too red pulled, so to speak, it can become quite
depressing because you start seeing a lot of nefarious
activity and, and sort of cynical behaviour and, and it's
very dark and you, you can get caught up in depression and
nihilism and that and that that can lead you to what's, what
would be known as the Blackpool where it's kind of defeatist and
you, you don't really see a point to anything.
You may just pour a glass of wine and enjoy the enjoy the
decline. But that's, I think that's,
that's being a loser. I think that that is a terrible,
terrible way to approach life. I just, I don't want to be
around people like that. It's, it's just too, it's just
too depressing. And so the white pool is
basically then the follow on from the black pool when you
realise, well, hold on a second, I've got all this information.
I feel more enlightened now. What can I do with it?
And it's, it's, it's about overcoming.
And that then leads you to things like, well, let me wake
up with a purpose. What am I going to do today?
Am I going to be defeated? Am I going to be beaten today?
No, I'm going to, I don't know. Let's just let's start off with
most basic things. I'm going to eat.
I'm going to eat better so that I don't become fat and, and, and
diabetic and, and you know, and get cancer.
Let me, let me take control of my health.
Let me go to the gym and we'll get fit.
We'll go for a run. Let me go outside in the sun.
Let me go back into nature, you know, all the, all these kind of
things. These are white pull, these are
ways to win. It's about, it's about not being
defeated. And, and I think everybody can
very easily and probably should go through a black pull phase,
But but you know, get out of it as quick as possible because I
was on antidepressants in 2020, You know, I was taking all sorts
of pharmaceuticals and, and I realised that this is no good.
This is no good. And, and, and I kind of woke up
and made the choice to, to take control of my, of my life and of
my personal being. You live once, make it, make it
meaningful. And, and, and so that led me to,
to seeing so much good again within that darkness.
You know that that that you see, when you pull back the curtain
and you and you see, you see reality for what it is.
And and then suddenly you can, you can take a more, I don't
know, you can take a more Marcus Aurelius approach and go, well,
I'm not going to let that actually, you know, break me.
I'm going to try and take those obstacles and and turn them into
into features. You know, I'm going to overcome
them and and I'm going to succeed.
And, and I think that is at the heart, it plays into the idea
again, of self reliance and independence.
And you can kind of maybe see how that horseshoes into the
whole, into the whole celebration, quote unquote, to
some degree of a failed state. Because in many ways, I don't
want to live in a failed state either, by the way, you know,
it, it would be nice to have things working.
You know, it would be nice to have trains that that are safe
and that can get from point A to point B, you know, and buses and
all that kind of stuff. But there is, there's also a
reason to, to, to, to, to welcome adversity.
And, and I think, and I think that's part of the white pull
mindset. So, for example, people around
me who, who did perhaps wake up during the COVID era, many have
stayed awake and that's wonderful.
But those who seem to be falling asleep again, I can decide how
bad, how badly I want to be around them.
I can, I can, you know, I can either cherish their their
friendship if it's worth it, or, you know, spend this time with
him so that so that I don't get that sort of negative influence,
or I can, you know, continue trying to, to win them over,
which is part of the battle of ideas.
So I don't know if that answers your question.
It's a very, very, very sort of philosophical answer.
Yeah. I mean, I, I'm, I'm certainly
not putting it out there suggesting there is an answer to
it, but I, I think it's completely fascinating and
everyone will have their own feelings on what you've just
said. And I think, I think it's very
powerful. But just on the specifics of it,
I mean, you've alluded the fact you were using pharmaceutical
products that you're not using anymore.
What have been the big things for you that have actually
really affected change in your life over that period that you
really do sort of point to as being the the the big ones?
I guess another way of asking that question is what, what sort
of big red poles have you swallowed and you know, and, and
being white pulled on? I think for me, Charles, just
very, very anecdotally speaking, health has been a big one.
So having taken antidepressants, which are addictive and are a
terrible thing and nobody should stay on those things for any
length of time, you know, and things like proton pump
inhibitors and all that kind of stuff, right?
I was taking all of that stuff prescription and it's very
difficult to get off that off that stuff.
But once you realise that you actually can control your health
through your through environment, through your diet,
better sleeping, try try not to get too stressed out.
You know, it's an ongoing journey.
There's no overnight fix it. It's this is a personal thing.
This is a journey that each person decides to take upon
them, you know, upon themselves. But, you know, weaning myself
off antidepressants and, and, and other and other
pharmaceuticals was not easy, but I was replacing a lot of
that with routines, you know, things like atomic habits that
James Clear writes about and forming healthy habits.
And also, I'm just on a personal level, finding myself really
loving my wife, you know, waking up in the morning and looking at
her going, you know what? I'm so blessed to, to wake up
next to this beautiful woman, you know, and when you're taking
pharmaceuticals and you and you're wired and you're so
caught up in, in the big thing that's going on the whole time,
you lose track of what's important and what matters.
And I just went straight back to those fundamentals, the things
that just make everything worth living.
And then the, you know, the words of, of I think it's
Stephen Corey. I think that's his COVID.
Is that his name or the guy who wrote the seven habits profound,
profound book? You know, it's a self help book
and, and most of it's chunk, you know, it's all in the self help
category. But something that he that I've
never forgotten that he, that he said in that book is you can't,
you can't win the big battles. You can fight them, but you
can't win them. You can't change your
government. You, you Charles, you can't go
and change your government. You can't influence change other
than your immediate environment, right?
You can only change what's immediate to you.
You can fight the bigger battles.
And that's what we are doing. You know, you and I, we're
chatting and this goes out and people think about it and they,
you know, and they get involved in things and all that, but
that's outside of your control. And it's, and it's that it is
that paradigm shift that that occurred to me during the COVID
era that I realised I can't change the lockdowns.
They're going to happen whether or not I'm getting angry and
upset about them and, and, and I end up losing, you know, I'm the
one who gets no sleep at night and I'm freaking out.
And this is, you know, nobody high up cares.
I'm just a number, but I care. And so that was when I realised
I've got to focus inwards again and influence change on that
which is close to me. And that for me is what is what
became pretty powerful, if that makes sense.
And then you can, you know, then by extension you can fight the
bigger battles and, and realise that those are long term games.
Very powerful and, and very candid answer.
Thank you very much for that. And that will give people a lot
to think about on the personal level and, and exactly like you
articulate, you know, controlling the things that are
within your gift of control and, and therefore to make yourself
happy as a result of it. That said, you have, of course
spoken to a huge number of people who are doing all sorts
of interesting and different things.
Are you seeing areas within which there is for want of a
better word, success in, in terms of pushback or, you know,
rejection of the new world order or whatever one might want to
describe you? You seeing that sort of thing
occurring? So, you know, these sorts of
yeah, successes. I think so.
I think, I think again it plays into that 30% number that
Matthias spoke about. I, I think that maybe 1/3 a
third sitting on half, but I mean, it doesn't really matter.
I think there's, there is a small number of people in my
circles that are certainly thinking differently to what
they did a few years ago and are certainly behaving and acting
differently. I know for a fact, for example,
and I think this is a big win. A number of people in my circles
no longer believe in vaccines, not just COVID, but any
vaccines. I don't, I don't believe in any
vaccines anymore. If you'd asked me about vaccines
in 2019, yes, sure. Yeah, vaccines work, you know,
absolutely. You know, now I do not trust any
pharmaceutical claim about any vaccine, knowing what I know
now. And and if you just think about
it, without even going into the science, how did humanity
survive for so long without the magic, the magic of vaccines?
Well, diet, lifestyle, you know, all the environmental factors
that, that get lost in these scientific discussions.
People get so caught up in, in, in their lane, shall I say, that
they just don't have the ability to zoom out and just look at the
big picture and realise you don't actually need a vaccine in
order to be healthy. The idea that you, that you
have, that you have to have an, an, an, an, an injection that
goes into your muscle in your arm to keep you healthy for 20
years. It seems just utterly absurd.
And I mean, I think that's, I think that's a big one because
that's an actual, that's an actual drug.
It's a toxin that's being injected into your body.
I mean, it's not, we're not just having a conversation.
You know, there's an actual thing that's going on here.
And I love, I love that so many people around me now are, are,
are looking at this more critically and saying it, not
just thinking it. You know, it's still difficult,
you know, when somebody dies suddenly or, or dies from
something strange. I don't know if you're the same,
but I, I found myself thinking, I wonder if they had the shot.
And with you have to, you have to read the room because some
people do not like that question at all.
It's just, it's a, it's a, it's a no go zone.
But I I'm happy to, to, to be around a number of people who
are OK with that and, and go. Yeah, I think you got the shot
and then you can't prove that it was a shot, but you know, you
you can kind of start making connections and going, well, OK,
he was healthy and suddenly he just dropped dead on the sports
field. So I think, I think to some
degree there are multiple wins that are happening, at least in
my circles. And I like that, that that for
me is very uplifting. So yes, I do see a change.
And, and it's not, not just that it's other things also, it's
also geopolitical. So it, it, it could be, it
doesn't really matter, but you know, it can be people changing
the views on, on previously held views that they are, you know,
they're now letting go of. So, but as I said, I think it's
still plays into that, that 3040% number.
And I don't know if it'll ever go above that, Charles.
No, I think you're probably right, but but it's exactly like
your ticket. It's a question of discerning
who is going to be receptive to such and such an idea or just at
least thinking about something. And we've all experienced the
the effect that the red pill can have which that it you can
invoke a tendency to behave like a bull in China shop and
experience the backfire effect. Now you are you have a mastery
for asking questions. How have you found to be the
best technique for breaching these sorts of subjects with
people? Or is it on a sort of individual
by individual basis? How do you How do you decide?
I'm just interested, it's as simple as that.
I'm, I'm just interested in, in, in learning.
I just want to know, I want to know more.
And I, I, I make the assumption that the person with whom I'm
talking knows more. That's as it's as simple as
that. And, and you don't, you don't
get anywhere if you are being, what's the word, abrasive or
just trying to, you know, so you're interviewing somebody,
but then you Give your opinion all the time.
That's not how you learn. I think it was Peter Boghossian
who wrote Yes, it is. It's Speedo who wrote the book
How to Have Impossible Conversations.
And by the way, it's a book I highly recommend.
He, it's an orange book, so you can't miss it.
And he wrote it with James Lindsay.
He did those experiments, those social experiments with Helen
Pluck Rose and James Lindsay, the very, very funny where they
showed how the peer review system's broken.
And he basically suggests that you, you need to genuinely be
interested. It's as simple as that.
And, and through that, allow, allow yourself to learn, you
know, don't assume that you know more.
And that's the other thing. You know, when you, when you
interview people, I'm sure you'll agree, Charles, you, you
realise how little you actually know about so many things.
You, you learn more, but you also learn how much you don't
know. And, and it's the most
incredible experience. Let me give you an example.
So I've done, I don't know about 1000 interviews and I've had
some of the best, the best discussions with communists now.
And I say that because they are they self described communists,
right? And and the only reason why I'm
saying that is because the whole Ukraine thing happened.
And so I started focusing on that and I realised that these
terms really do not adequately signify who or what people
believe. It's just a single word to
define an entire person and they experience in life.
And you realise that it's silly. Yeah, these words help for
conversations. And of course, for most, most,
you know, dialogue, you know, we need descriptors for general
understanding of things. But when you come down to it and
you sit with somebody like I did on many occasions and I realised
I, I agree with, I agree with that point.
I agree with that .0. Wow, I agree with that point
too. But I'm not a communist.
What's going on here? And, and that's, that's what
made me realise how little ash, you know, because even people
who label themselves as things don't entirely fit into these
things because there's so much more than a label that makes
sense. And that's why I've kind of
dismissed the left, right, sort of liberal conservative
dichotomies for the most part. And I just look at myself and I
go, well, what do I think about a situation?
What is my position on that? What is my view?
And and does that person have have a point?
Yeah, I think so. Does he have a point?
Now, I don't know if I agree with that.
And and so I kind of kind of formulate my own position based
on on on that. And I think any same person,
just by the way, on this, any same person who's done a bit of
history will know that the sort of left, right ideology
narrative came out of the French Revolution.
I mean, that was hundreds of years ago.
I mean, it's no longer relevant. I mean, if you ask anybody
today, what does it mean to be right wing or far, far right as
the as the as the media term, nobody knows.
Nobody can define these terms. And until these terms can be
adequately defined, we can't, you can't use them effectively.
Those were just throwing around pointless words.
So I found myself having the most incredible conversations
with people with whom I 10 years ago would have vehemently, just
outright disagreed without even giving them a chance.
And I think that's the point. You know, when you give people a
chance to and you listen, which is what Peter Boghossian said in
his book, you know, you just listen and you, and you show an
interest. There's a whole wealth of of of
knowledge that you that you end up gaining.
Yeah, I mean, gosh, without a doubt.
And for anybody that isn't familiar with your podcast, and
indeed slightly depends on the time or date, I should say that
anyone listens to this interview because the situation is is
somewhat changing, but just just describe, describe the the
German warfare podcast in a nutshell, but with a view to the
future. Well, effectively it's the
battle of ideas. So it is in engaging in in
topics or talking points that are traditionally perhaps taboo
or unconventional or fringe or conspiratorial or whatever,
generally speaking that might challenge mainstream thinking.
So it's, it's effectively approaching what you might
consider even dangerous ideas for the purposes of learning and
also fitting together the puzzle.
It's taking slowly piercing together the puzzle of how
things work. You spoke about the New World
Order, Agenda 2030. These are all real things.
Sustainable development is a real thing.
It is a United Nations ambition for centralised control of
countries. This is not, this is not airy
fairy stuff. It's a real thing.
It's documented. They want, you know, they want
people to move into cities and open up land and give the land
to the state so that they can build solar panels and, and all
sorts of other stuff. And, and, you know, these, these
sort of mega ultra cities that, that, that, that clash.
Rob, for example, has spoken about.
This is all real stuff. And, and, and yet in the
mainstream, there's this weird type of closed mindedness that
still doesn't want to acknowledge that there is a
bigger set of, of realities that are going on around us.
You know, if you open, if I open a newspaper today, it's, it'll
just talk about how the government has done XY and Z,
but it doesn't go further than that against Africa.
We've got an issue with farm murders, right?
And it's a real thing. And we have we have a scary
amount of of particularly white farmers who get attacked on a on
a weekly basis, either attacked, killed, but it's, it's not good.
But if you were to speak about this with your average, with
your average South African who doesn't think terribly far, they
would just think that it's just, it's just black people who hate
white people. But it's not that in my view.
I think that it's deeper than that.
I think that this is part of a global attempt with foreign
interests to to keep at least South Africa destabilised.
Because when you have a destabilised agricultural setup
like we do, you, you can then infiltrate with a lot more ease.
You can get into government policy making, you can get into
corporate policy making. And, and it's again, as I said
earlier, when people are in a state of, of fear and anxiety,
you can, you can control them with a lot more ease.
Agriculture, I think is not just an issue in South Africa.
I think the Netherlands is also facing all types of agricultural
attacks. So, so a myopic view it, it's
just, it's just racism. It's maybe some of that, yes,
sure. But I think it's bigger than
that. And this is what happens when
you, when you sit within that sort of mainstream mindset, you
don't want to look bigger. You don't realise that this,
that this, that there are a lot of links that are that go
outside of, of, of your view. The, the world is interconnected
and there is a big web and there are a lot of things that are
connected to a lot of other things.
And, and, and so that's what germ warfare is about.
It's about trying to just find those links and connect them
and, and a lot of them might not work, you know, but that's part
of the process, it's part of the journey.
Excellent, a very good summary and for those who are aware of
germ warfare then a handy reminder to those that aren't.
They have something to look forward to.
The eagle eyed amongst the audience would have noticed
already that there are one or two cartoons of germs that are
tagged UK column and by now. Well, depending on the date of
the release of the interview, but UK column is now to be host
to germ warfare in some guys or other.
So that's something we look forward to enormously.
Just give us your thoughts on on the Collaboration with UK
column. I have been wanting to
collaborate with UK column for a very long time.
Charles, I said this to you previously.
I interviewed Brian, I think back in 20/20/21, already a big
fan of, of, of the work that UK column does.
I think it's a very important voice and it's not just UK
based. The fact that I'm in South
Africa and, and have been following it for years is, is an
indication that it is global and, and it's an important
global voice and it's a, it's a very, what is the opposite of
sensational. I don't want to say moderate,
that's the wrong word, but it's a, it's, it's a, it's a well
thought out take on what's going on.
I'm trying, I'm trying to compare to, to Infowars, which
is highly, highly sensational. It's not that.
It's a lot more what's, what's more reasoned?
There we go. It's more reasoned and, and, and
I love that. And, and I'm looking forward to,
to, to doing a, a type of broadcast with UK column.
And of course I'm enjoying drawing for, for UK column.
It is a wonderful collaboration that I find extremely fulfilling
personally. And of course, I think valuable
externally. I think a lot of people will
appreciate our collaboration. And I just quickly want to say
we keep saying German warfare, which is correct, but some
people get confused. It's not germ with AG.
We're not talking about bacteria or, or, you know, viruses.
My name is Jeremy. And it's just a plain words.
So it's germ with AJ. So it's just literally word
play. That's all it is.
And so it's all about the battle and the war and the, the, you
know, and it's all all those sort of metaphors kind of kind
of coming to 1. So it's just just just let
people spell it correctly because I'll always get
incorrect spelling. I will make sure I I type that
up with the right keys for the notes for this interview.
Indeed. Now obviously this is very
exciting. The UK column as well.
It will be in effect under your own brand.
So now just tell people where they can go to find out more
about what you have been doing, what you do do and any social
media and that sort of thing. Well, obviously gymwarfare.com,
my website is the home. I mean, there's no point to me
mentioning all the other stuff because it's all on the website
socialmediaetceteraetceteragermwarfare.com with AJ.
But I suspect that the stuff that I'm going to be doing with
UK column will will also be on UK columns website Charles.
So I think it'll be those two websites.
Perfect. I mean, could it be any simpler,
right, I think not. So that's, that's a fantastic
place to end, I think Now all I would say is that if you are in
a position to support UK column financially and you're not
already doing so, but you would like to please go to the website
and look at ways in which you could either donate or join as a
member. Because we would very much
appreciate that. And of course, it will enable us
to sustain the nascent relationship with GERM, which we
are, as I say, very, very pleased and excited about.
Now there are thousands of other topics that we could have
covered if we had several more days, but unfortunately that's
where we've got to knock it on the head.
I just want to point that because I know you're not going
to, but a number of years ago when I was hosting a radio show,
you were my guest. And and it's it's amazing how
how we force you back to where we are here, which is wonderful.
So so thank you. Not at all.
Thank you. I mean, that actually that would
be good for, for a further discussion that was specifically
about, well, Christianity, but but the Church of England in
particular and how it and I would say abuses its funds, But
that, that is not a topic we can open up now.
But no, absolutely we should come back and discuss that again
because it's, it's an extraordinary topic.
And, and it was a, you know, it was a great pleasure to talk to
you then. And, and as you say, it's come
full circle now. What a delight.
So we will leave it there. But Jim, thank you very much
indeed for joining me. It's been a real pleasure.
Thanks, Charles.