1 00:00:38,310 --> 00:00:43,670 Nice to be back hours away in the desert, in the in Abu Dhabi, 2 00:00:43,670 --> 00:00:48,000 in Dubai and suddenly realized that all this talk of global 3 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:52,720 warming that comes out of the UK, the BBC has no idea. 4 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:54,760 I'm going to disagree with you, Jeremy. 5 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:57,720 I'm going to say the BBC knows exactly what they're talking 6 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:02,760 about when they, when they apply the 26° is, is life threatening 7 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:08,840 as, as does the government and the the Health Security Agency 8 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:11,680 or whatever they're called that you know, it's just, it's just 9 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:16,920 incredible how they push this, this narrative and even more 10 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:20,840 incredible how people believe it in many cases. 11 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:24,440 So I would say that that it's not the BBC that we need to be 12 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:27,200 considering here. It's it's people again. 13 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:34,000 And and whether whether we're prepared to accept the what is 14 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:38,400 normal being dressed up as being abnormal in some way. 15 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:43,200 I said Middle East. I am going to get fired shots at 16 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:48,000 by some folks saying that the Gulf states are not Middle East 17 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,560 and that it's they are actually, what did you call it, Southwest 18 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:54,000 Asia? Well, not necessarily because, 19 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:57,680 because are you talking about Lebanon OR are you talking about 20 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:00,040 the Gulf states or which? States yeah. 21 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:03,560 Yeah, sorry, Charles, I interrupted. 22 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:07,800 No, no, I, I, I I was just wondering whether we were going 23 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:10,560 to start hair splitting this early on in the session. 24 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:13,640 But. But perhaps we are What? 25 00:02:13,640 --> 00:02:16,080 Why not? Frankly, you know, it's the end 26 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:17,840 of the week. Yeah. 27 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:23,520 I think it's, it's wonderful to hear a tale of that and to, to 28 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:27,600 discover that you have come back safely and you didn't drop into 29 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:30,280 a heap on the pavement and indeed presumed you didn't see 30 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:32,080 anybody else melting in the heat. 31 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:36,640 I think the other, the other thing on top of the being told 32 00:02:36,640 --> 00:02:41,000 that 26° is a heat wave or whatever we're supposed to 33 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:44,920 believe these days. I mean, it is quite astonishing 34 00:02:44,920 --> 00:02:47,480 that people do do it. But it, but it is an observable 35 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:51,840 thing because I think some people's mobile telephones tell 36 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:55,560 them what the weather is doing where they are. 37 00:02:56,040 --> 00:03:00,160 They will look at it and say, oh, it's, you know, whatever it 38 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:03,720 is, it's raining or it's whatever, rather than either 39 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:07,360 going outside and seeing what it is or looking out of the window. 40 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:12,240 And, and, and incredibly, in this age, often the telephone is 41 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:14,960 perceived as being correct. Rather. 42 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:16,560 Than that's not what you observe. 43 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:18,960 That's not the bit that cracks me up the most. 44 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:22,960 What cracks me up the most are the people who will who have 45 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:28,040 been told that 26° is a heat wave and so they will complain 46 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:33,160 bitterly about how hot it is and how they're so tired because of 47 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:34,680 the heat and all this kind of stuff. 48 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,040 While if while they're writing out the cheque for three grand 49 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:41,520 to go to Turkey for two weeks holiday in 50°. 50 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:45,520 It's amazing. How your own perceptions of the 51 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:48,280 world change when you go somewhere, but it's this 52 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:51,360 disconnect between reality and what people perceive as reality. 53 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:56,160 Well, I think not so much perceived, but but are told and, 54 00:03:56,520 --> 00:04:01,160 and that is what creates what we then interpret as a perception. 55 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:04,000 I mean, you know, it's, it's the same as being told by the 56 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:08,680 weather forecast that 26° is near fatal heat, when actually 57 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:12,040 it's just a sort of warmish day. And it's and I think it's 58 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:15,880 exactly the same with the there's a Islamic population in 59 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:18,959 this country. They are all death mongerers and 60 00:04:18,959 --> 00:04:20,920 they kill each other and us all the time. 61 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:23,960 And then, and then you go there and you look and you see that 62 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,000 that is not the case. And, and, and I would, I, I 63 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:30,240 would absolutely echo what you say. 64 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:35,320 I, I, I have been very lucky to travel and to work in a lot of 65 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:37,920 different places in a lot of parts of the world. 66 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:43,120 And I, I found it to be a totally enriching experience. 67 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:45,400 And I don't mean that to sound trite in the sort of, oh, you 68 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:48,280 know, I just love all the people that I encountered and this, 69 00:04:48,280 --> 00:04:51,080 that and the other. What I mean is that one's 70 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:57,880 character and perspective and intellectual concept of the 71 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:01,640 world around you is is only enhanced by doing so in the same 72 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:05,240 way that if you're going to buy a new pair of shoes, it's worth 73 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:08,280 trying on more than one pair because you then have a frame of 74 00:05:08,280 --> 00:05:10,600 reference. And I think that the, that that 75 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:13,480 rule can be applied to absolutely everything, but 76 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:17,120 absolutely in terms of travel, experiencing other people, 77 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:19,080 experiencing other cultures. And I'm not, you know, that's, 78 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:21,480 that's not exclusive to other parts of the world. 79 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:24,200 I mean, let's face it, you know, germ by landmass, you live in a 80 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:27,760 country that is far, far bigger than the United Kingdom. 81 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:30,640 And yet in terms of population density, of course, the story is 82 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:33,840 different above the equator this side. 83 00:05:33,840 --> 00:05:37,200 And yet, you know, travelling all over the UK is always worth 84 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:39,640 it because you will see and you will learn. 85 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:43,760 And it, it, it, it does just qualify the information that 86 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:46,040 you've been presented about a particular place. 87 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:51,000 And, and nowhere have, well, certainly within the last 25 to 88 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:55,480 30 years in particular, has that been more acutely felt than the, 89 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:59,720 the exactly like you say, the, the construct of Islam as a 90 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:03,400 threat either here or even in the countries where it's 91 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:08,440 practiced as the state religion or, or, or sort of de facto 92 00:06:08,840 --> 00:06:11,520 state religion. And my experience is having 93 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:19,240 travelled and worked in certainly well, well over 15 94 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:21,520 countries that would fall into that category. 95 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:25,640 I have never ever encountered anything that corresponds to the 96 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:27,760 scaremongering. I have only experienced the 97 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:33,000 exact opposite. And I should say qualities that 98 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:37,880 far outstrip the average experience that one has in the 99 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:41,000 United Kingdom these days. And I'm not, that's not a, a, 100 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:42,760 you know, I've just had it with Brits. 101 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:44,040 They're all, they're all useless. 102 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:46,120 This, that and the other. That's not what I'm saying. 103 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:50,200 But I, I don't live in Plymouth, but I come here regularly. 104 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,360 Every time I go out on the street, I say good morning, good 105 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,760 afternoon, whatever it is to people, exactly like I would in 106 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:59,000 a foreign country. In another country, I will 107 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:01,440 always be replied to. In actual fact, probably I would 108 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:05,640 have been greeted first. Very seldom do I get an 109 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:10,120 acknowledgement here and and very, very seldom from somebody 110 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,920 under the age of 50. Usually the sort of hierarchies 111 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:17,000 you'll get, you know, people will actually look away if 112 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:22,800 they're younger and that the elderly generation tend to smile 113 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:27,640 and greet you sincerely. And you know, I don't do it just 114 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:30,040 to wind people up. I do it because I mean it. 115 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:32,000 I do it because human interaction is what we're all 116 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:33,720 about. If if we don't have that, what, 117 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:35,040 what, what is the point of any of it? 118 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:41,120 So yes, to go back to your original point, to experience 119 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:45,880 these cultures, to create or widen the parameters of your own 120 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:49,640 frame of reference, I I cannot see any downside to that at all. 121 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:51,680 And I'm so glad that you've come back with that, with that 122 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:54,800 thought in mind. Charles, just to add a little 123 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:58,120 bit to the the greeting each other in passing comment. 124 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:02,160 This was something that was absolutely normal in in Northern 125 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:03,480 Ireland. I'm back in Northern Ireland at 126 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:04,680 the moment for a couple of weeks. 127 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:10,600 And you know, if I was cycling along the tow path years ago or, 128 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:13,480 or walking along the tow path, you know, or anywhere in the 129 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:15,160 mountains, whatever it happened to be, and you came across 130 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:17,480 somebody. It was absolutely normal for 131 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:20,160 people to greet each other in exactly that way. 132 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:25,240 And even though that was sort of ingrained into the, the sort of 133 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:30,160 normal normalcy of life in this country, that changed with 134 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:33,280 COVID. And it's actually a lot less 135 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:38,200 likely that people will, will react in that way now than it 136 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:43,799 was in pre 2020. And I think that's, that's the 137 00:08:43,799 --> 00:08:47,320 case in, in England as well, that, that there's much less 138 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:51,040 likelihood of people greeting each other because of, of COVID. 139 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:55,880 And so, you know, I, during COVID, when of course, we were 140 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:59,680 supposedly only allowed out for exercise and so on, it became a 141 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,160 almost an active resistance to go for a walk every day. 142 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:06,600 And, and certainly, you know, I never wore a mask. 143 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:08,320 Many other people didn't wear masks. 144 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:11,640 It was generally the non mask wearers that were willing to say 145 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:15,040 hello to each other in passing. Others walk to the other side of 146 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:17,520 the path. So, so you know, the, the point 147 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:20,960 I'm making is part of that is, is something which has been done 148 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:25,040 to people and and maybe hasn't been done to people in the same 149 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:28,000 way in other countries. Yeah, I totally agree. 150 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:30,640 And, and actually just to extend that a tiny bit, you know, it's 151 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:32,480 really interesting to hear the Northern Ireland perspective. 152 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:36,320 It reminds me of how life is on a motorbike. 153 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:39,720 And if you pass another bike in England, you you sort of nod 154 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:41,600 your head sideways towards the biker. 155 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:45,520 And I was delighted years ago to cross the border and find that 156 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:47,800 bikes in Scotland, and I dare say this may be the case in 157 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,880 Northern Ireland, but you wave at each other and it's, it's a, 158 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:53,560 it's a, it might seem like a minor difference, but it's a 159 00:09:53,560 --> 00:09:56,680 really significant one. And, and, and similarly, riding 160 00:09:56,680 --> 00:10:00,120 a bicycle in Scotland. I, I've biked the whole way 161 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:02,720 through Scotland and England in one go. 162 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:06,680 Well, obviously stopping overnight, but, but, but the, 163 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:08,960 the same was true there. People, if you, if you bike 164 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:13,440 through a village in Scotland, people will actually greet you, 165 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:17,360 even if you're on a bicycle and England, pretty much nothing. 166 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:19,640 It's a really interesting difference. 167 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:23,160 The, the the whole thing about Islam is so sensitive because 168 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:25,920 people have been so propagandized into thinking that 169 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:29,000 they are the enemy. What you're seeing in in in 170 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:32,880 Europe is what my guest, if you not to go Miriam Cherubaiti was 171 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:37,240 talking about takfir ISM, which is a politicized version of of, 172 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:40,200 of Islam like ISIS and those those extreme groups that are 173 00:10:40,560 --> 00:10:43,960 they are designed to create all sorts of conflict. 174 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:48,480 But if you go into those regions where Islam dominates, it's 175 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:51,240 extremely peaceful and you get a very, very different sense of 176 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:53,760 reality. So there's a couple of points 177 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,400 there, Jeremy. The 1st is takfir ISM as you're 178 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,320 talk, as you're describing it, this is of Wahhabi ISM. 179 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:03,840 Effectively it's this is something which is a creation of 180 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:06,800 the British deep state. It's as is Muslim Brotherhood, 181 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:11,280 as is Al Qaeda with the help of the Americans and so on. 182 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:15,400 Extremist Islam is something, I mean, we've been trying to make 183 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:19,000 this point many, many times, but the, the extremist Islam is 184 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,960 something which is, is a creation of geopolitics and a 185 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:24,800 creation of particularly the British. 186 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:30,400 And so that we've got to see that in that context. 187 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,000 And you know, one of the, one of the most things, striking things 188 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:38,400 that Vanessa said to me because she, as you know, experienced 189 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,680 the collapse of, of Syria in December. 190 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:48,760 And she, I was speaking to her many, many times when the call 191 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:51,040 to prayer would be, would be issued. 192 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:57,120 And the sound of that in the background was actually 193 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:01,040 something quite beautiful. The, the style of the singing 194 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:02,840 and so on was something quite beautiful. 195 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:07,360 When the extremists moved in, that was changed and it became 196 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:10,640 harsh and it became unpleasant and it was actually something 197 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:14,880 extremely ugly. And just that, that one small 198 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:20,400 change identified that something quite, you know, it it that, 199 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:25,760 that was something that was representative of the extremism 200 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:30,360 which had moved in almost overnight in her area of, of 201 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:32,120 Damascus. And then of course she had to 202 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:35,320 leave very, very quickly and through a very dangerous 203 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:40,960 situation. But my point is that this is not 204 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:46,880 what what what most people perceive as Islam is not Islam. 205 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:52,960 It's something, it's a creation. It's something which is beyond, 206 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:58,000 you know, the experience of, of most people in these countries 207 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:02,800 in that region. My real, I mean, I don't want to 208 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:08,360 use the word fear, but my concern, let's say, is that we 209 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:13,480 are, we are allowing ourselves to be radicalized in many, many 210 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:15,520 ways. And this, this process has been 211 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:17,720 going on for a long time. But I suppose the first time 212 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:22,440 that we, that we really saw it overtly was with, with Brexit, 213 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:24,440 with where, you know, we took an issue. 214 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,000 When I say we, I mean the British government took an issue 215 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,600 and the British media took an issue and they managed to split 216 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:35,680 the population basically in half and drive people towards the 217 00:13:35,680 --> 00:13:37,440 absolute extremes of the argument. 218 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:40,600 And, and this is, this is happening right across the world 219 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:45,400 in many, many area, in many areas, in many regions, the, the 220 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:50,400 people are, are being radicalized in many, many ways, 221 00:13:50,560 --> 00:13:53,600 not just in terms of religion, but also in terms of politics. 222 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:56,600 And this is, you know, this is something that we've got to be 223 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,480 aware of. You know, the UK column is, has 224 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:04,800 been trying to highlight for 20 years the psychological, the, 225 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:09,720 the use of applied psychology to, to control the minds of, of 226 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:13,560 populations with the, the creation of the Mindspace 227 00:14:13,560 --> 00:14:15,960 document that we've talked about many times, the use of the 228 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:18,560 behavioural insights teams and so on. 229 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:23,440 This is something which is really fundamental to Western 230 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,920 society in particular, but not just exclusively Western society 231 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:31,640 and it's largely not understood. And of course, if people don't 232 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:35,240 understand the processes which are being used, then we can't 233 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:39,120 understand why we're coming up with the OR why we're believing 234 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:41,720 the things we're believing. And, and we're certainly not 235 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,640 challenging those beliefs. There is an increasing 236 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:48,880 recognition in many parts of the world that have been on the 237 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:53,320 receiving end of British and American diplomacy. 238 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:57,600 And by that, of course we mean militarization and warfare and 239 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:00,640 this kind of stuff. It's, it's it's recognized who 240 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:02,400 the aggressors are on this planet. 241 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:06,000 You know, we in the UK, our government, the United States 242 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:10,000 government, the EU governments are busy saying, oh, put an 243 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:12,360 authoritarian Xi Jinping authoritarian. 244 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:20,600 That's not how the the rest of the world is viewing Putin or 245 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,760 she on one hand, but on the other hand, they're absolutely 246 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:27,240 recognising the lies that are coming out of the mouths every 247 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:30,520 single minute of every single day of British politicians, 248 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:33,720 British media, British deep state operatives, think tanks, 249 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:36,720 others. They, this, this is something 250 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:41,200 which is, has become, I believe, a part of the psyche of most 251 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:44,000 ordinary people in these countries, because they've been 252 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:48,360 on the receiving end of what we've been giving for so many 253 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:49,920 years. And of course they're going to 254 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:53,960 start reacting and at some, and it is dangerous because, you 255 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:59,120 know, they, they are increasingly the, the majority 256 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:02,800 population on the planet. They are increasingly the 257 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:05,400 majority economic power on the planet. 258 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:10,080 And at some point something's going to come home to roost 259 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:12,280 with, with W, There's no question about it. 260 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:16,040 We got to grow up and, and recognise that geopolitics is 261 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:18,080 not the way to do business, right? 262 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:22,640 But our, our entire, our entire societies for the last several 263 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:25,880 100 years have been based on the idea of going into countries 264 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:30,880 which have a lower techno, military, technological level, 265 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,400 kicking the crap out of them, digging up their raw materials 266 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:36,800 and stealing them. That's, that has been our, our, 267 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:42,360 basically our, our way of doing business for, for, you know, 2 268 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:44,880 or 300 years. And, and it's not going to work 269 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,040 anymore because, you know, people are, are demanding the 270 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:52,240 right to build a life, a life for themselves, which isn't 271 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:55,240 based on slavery and, and poverty. 272 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,200 So, you know, and they have a right to dig up their own raw 273 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:01,680 materials, their own rare earths and, and make their own, build 274 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:05,000 their own economies. And, you know, the time of 275 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,520 raping other countries has to come to an end. 276 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:09,720 That's, it's as simple as that for me. 277 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:15,280 And, and you know, that begins with us recognising and being 278 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:19,119 honest about how we have made our our millions over the years. 279 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:24,480 In, in, in so far as truth is concerned, it is very well 280 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:29,520 obscured and the target is always people's emotions, 281 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,080 people's soft spots, weak points. 282 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:39,240 And this is the gift of so-called foreign aid and how 283 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:43,200 people are prepared. On the one hand, to consider 284 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:47,440 that military intervention in a country may not be appropriate 285 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:51,400 because the outcomes tend to be unfavourable in that people die 286 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:57,040 and continue to die thereafter. Whereas foreign aid sounds 287 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:01,800 benevolent, it sounds like it's going to bring about prosperity 288 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:07,320 and improved conditions for humanity, when in actual fact 289 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:14,760 that is not the case. And it is intentionally there to 290 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:19,720 obfuscate the truth, which is that really all it's doing is 291 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:23,640 enabling the types of corruptions necessary to carry 292 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:27,240 on prosecuting exactly the agenda that Mike describes. 293 00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:33,120 And there are some very good pieces of literature from, I 294 00:18:33,120 --> 00:18:38,080 mean, I can think of Africa in particular from Africans writing 295 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:43,640 about this very subject and the looting that's conducted under 296 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:47,760 the, you know, under the, the blanket of, as I say, 297 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:52,160 obfuscation that's thrown over the whole situation by this idea 298 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:56,840 that foreign aid is either necessary or desirable or has 299 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:01,440 positive outcomes, all of which are, I would say, not true. 300 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:08,040 And if a particular nation, country, whatever it is, wants 301 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:12,080 to crack on in a particular way that we don't consider we would 302 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:15,520 want to do things, that's absolutely fine because I always 303 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,960 talk about this particular issue of, well, how about we put the 304 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:20,720 boot on the other foot for a change? 305 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:27,880 And you know, how many times do Nigerian politicians storm into 306 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:30,040 the United Kingdom and tell us we're doing it all wrong? 307 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:33,520 And that, this, that and the other is to be imposed and, and 308 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:37,000 then they're going to start extracting tin from Cornwall 309 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:38,880 again. And, you know, whatever it is. 310 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:44,440 So we, we are totally inconsistent, but also we are we 311 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:49,960 are prevailing upon people's innate humanity by suggesting 312 00:19:50,360 --> 00:19:53,880 that foreign aid is a good thing, in the same way that 313 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:58,920 protecting the environment has been hijacked by the climate 314 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:04,680 narrative in order to deliver any of the net 0 cost 315 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:07,440 restrictions, control, whatever else. 316 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,440 I mean, this is it's the same model every time, it's just 317 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:12,280 dressed up in slightly different clothes. 318 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:16,720 I think it was Alexander Dugan who wrote about something called 319 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:21,080 the 4th Political theory in which he basically argues that 320 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:26,160 just leave every region or country or nation to determine 321 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:29,240 what's best for itself. Yes, I mean, if, if well, I do 322 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:30,840 well, sorry. All I would add to what I was 323 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:34,720 going to say is that is that the, the, the sort of ancillary 324 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,240 part to the, to the foreign aid, you know, foreign aid no good. 325 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:41,240 If you do want to benefit the economy of that country, then 326 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:45,200 then why not trade with it on an honest basis? 327 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,440 If, if, if there's something there that you would like, well, 328 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:53,400 fine, but but do a deal that actually makes sense for them 329 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:55,800 rather than strong arming them into it. 330 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:58,920 In the same way that you would expect to be the case if you 331 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:02,160 were doing business with somebody on your local High 332 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:04,360 Street or with a neighbor or whatever else it is. 333 00:21:04,360 --> 00:21:06,840 Why should it be any different just because they're in a 334 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:10,320 different country? Mike, sorry, go on. 335 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,360 Yeah, Well, I was just, I was just going to say, I was just 336 00:21:13,360 --> 00:21:17,640 going to add to that and say, you know, the, the, the concept 337 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,760 of the modern nation state was based on the Treaty of 338 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,960 Westphalia. And, you know, if, if anybody 339 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,560 hasn't read the first clause of the Treaty of Westphalia, you 340 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:32,600 should, you know, the idea of international relations being 341 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:36,800 on, to paraphrase for the benefit of the other, you know, 342 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:40,520 everything that that I do as a nation, I, I do for the benefit 343 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:42,840 of the other, because in benefiting the other, I'm 344 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,280 benefiting myself because we can trade effectively and so on. 345 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:47,880 We're not killing each other anymore. 346 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,800 This kind of thing, you know, it, it was, it was Tony Blair 347 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:52,640 that said that that concept was outdated. 348 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:57,520 And, and when, as he was, you know, I think in 2005 or 2008, I 349 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:02,720 can't remember when it was, you know, so I think getting past 350 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:07,000 the geopolitics and dropping this whole idea of the only way 351 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:12,800 to succeed in the world is to, is to, you know, be kicking 352 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,440 everybody else in the teeth. This isn't the right way to be 353 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:19,840 doing business. And, and, and so I think that's 354 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,640 where we've got to start changing our our views. 355 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:25,200 But we can see that happening with China. 356 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,520 I mean it, it just focuses on economics. 357 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:31,440 Whoever, whoever wants to buy their products, they're open for 358 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:31,920 business. I. 359 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:36,440 Mean, I think that. I think to a certain extent 360 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:40,400 that's true. I think that, you know, it's not 361 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,400 all a bed of roses with with what China's doing. 362 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:49,160 There's still a long way to go. I think that China has done a 363 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:54,320 spectacular job in raising the standard of living for for its 364 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:56,520 own population. I mean, just to correct what you 365 00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:03,080 said earlier, it was, it was I went to China on in in April and 366 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:07,960 you know, I found, you know, you were saying that that Dubai was 367 00:23:08,120 --> 00:23:12,520 a very safe place. I found Beijing and Xi'an to be 368 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:18,320 just the the incredibly safe. There was no St. crime 369 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:21,280 effectively at all in that in those in those cities. 370 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:26,520 I didn't see any evidence of it. And, and kids actually out in 371 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:31,760 parks, playing in the evenings, not sitting at home, you know, 372 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:36,200 with, on computer games or whatever, but but actually 373 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:41,720 outside and, and enjoying life and no sense of, of danger. 374 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,640 Because, you know, a lot of the rhetoric that we hear from, from 375 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,280 people is, well, we can't let the kids out to play because 376 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,480 it's not safe. Well, it's absolutely safe in 377 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:52,400 those countries. And I think if we're, if we're 378 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,640 seriously saying that it's not safe to let our kids go out and 379 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:59,680 play in our own countries, then we need to be really looking at 380 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:03,880 what's going on in our own countries and, and asking why 381 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:08,200 that is. I just find it amazing that that 382 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,120 there's basically no St. crime at all. 383 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:17,680 I I felt safer walking through Beijing than I ever felt walking 384 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,960 through Plymouth at night. Why do you think that is? 385 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:27,040 Is it culture or is it because of a strong top down approach? 386 00:24:29,120 --> 00:24:34,160 I mean, to be honest, look, I, I went there for 10 days. 387 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:38,480 It's not possible for me to answer that question because, 388 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:43,480 because I don't know as much as you sort of get a, some idea of 389 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:45,840 what the country's like, you can't really know what it's like 390 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,080 unless you live there for, for a longer period. 391 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,800 And so I, I just, I don't know the answer to that question, 392 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:52,800 Chair, it's. An interesting one. 393 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,360 I mean, I'd, I'd been to Hong Kong a few months prior to 394 00:24:55,360 --> 00:25:00,840 Mike's China visit and the situation is exactly the same. 395 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:02,520 I mean, I think I've talked about this a little bit before, 396 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,080 but, but though, you know, of course there are, there are 397 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,040 changes to the place, which I've noted over the years. 398 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:13,080 But fundamentally, the stability, the, the sort of 399 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:15,360 safety on the street and the way in which people are able to 400 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,240 manage their lives in the, in the areas that Mike talks about 401 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,120 are really exactly the same. You know, I mean, young children 402 00:25:21,120 --> 00:25:24,560 will happily travel on public transport unaccompanied with No 403 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,040 Fear that anything might go wrong. 404 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,400 I mean, which is obviously not to say that it can't. 405 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:33,160 But I mean, as a frame of reference, talking to people 406 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:37,000 that had lived there for decades, respectively, it was a, 407 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,760 it was a major talking point that there'd been a burglary in 408 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,560 the house. This was something that I was 409 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,200 talking to one particular person about who had lived there for 410 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:50,160 over 30 years and he had never, ever known this happened before. 411 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,360 And this was a house near where he lived. 412 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,880 So I mean that that is pretty astonishing by comparison. 413 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,680 The very simplified sort of theory on Hong Kong is that the 414 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:04,920 relationship between the police and the triads is such that the 415 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:10,000 triads are effectively allowed to conduct sort of large scale 416 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:15,480 crime and a blind eye will be turned as long as petty and 417 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,480 violent crime that does affect the way people lead their lives 418 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,120 or are able to express those sorts of freedoms is not 419 00:26:22,120 --> 00:26:24,360 compromised. And people are going to have 420 00:26:24,360 --> 00:26:25,680 issues with that. Of course they are. 421 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:29,200 But the fact of it is that the way it plays out for society 422 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,720 means that they get to live their lives unencumbered by all 423 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,080 the sorts of crimes that we do see, certainly in the United 424 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,400 Kingdom, and I would say in the in the wider western world. 425 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:42,000 And, and that just general sense of degeneracy that you see on 426 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,200 the streets that is not evident in Hong Kong. 427 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:51,160 And that does seem to be still a culture of enterprise and people 428 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:55,280 just getting up and getting on. And the, the I, I, you know, 429 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,440 the, the interesting thing would be to know on a sort of chicken 430 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:02,840 and egg basis how that works. I mean, I think in the United 431 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:07,440 Kingdom it is very obvious that there is fairly early on in 432 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:08,880 life. I'm, I'm afraid for people now. 433 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:12,800 I think there's a binary option of whether you want to live off 434 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,640 the state or whether you want to live off an income that you 435 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:20,600 generate yourself. And ultimately the results, 436 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,640 depending on what sort of lifestyle you want to leave lead 437 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,320 are similar. If you want a big telly, 438 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,880 computer games, accommodation and all the rest of it, the 439 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:30,920 state will actually provide that with you. 440 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,800 That might sound overly cynical, but that really is the case. 441 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:37,520 And for a lot of people who've grown up knowing that way of 442 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,880 life, then there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with it. 443 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,560 And I'm, I, I mean, I'm not necessarily here to pass 444 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,520 judgement, but I'm just saying that bearing in mind that is an 445 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:51,240 option here, it is easy to see that that would be a driver of 446 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,200 all the sorts of scourges that we do see or that we might 447 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:59,000 regard as being scourges on the way that people do behave in the 448 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,800 way that society relates to itself. 449 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,880 I would suggest that the situation in China and Hong Kong 450 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,960 is, is different and people don't therefore have those 451 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,920 options presented to them. And it this this is actually 452 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,760 closely related to the, to the idea of foreign aid. 453 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,760 I'm not suggesting you just turn the tap off immediately because 454 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:22,600 clearly that's unrealistic. But but it would absolutely be 455 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:27,360 preferable, desirable, I'm sure, for the society to run where 456 00:28:27,360 --> 00:28:29,520 people are able to make their own way in life. 457 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,080 Yes, you want to have the ability to be able to help 458 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,520 people where required. But but traditionally that was 459 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:37,560 done by families. And of course we've seen a very 460 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:41,000 deliberate breakdown in the family unit with the dependence 461 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:44,080 therefore on the state and which means the state can do what it 462 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,880 what it likes. I just add to that, you know, my 463 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,840 wife works in primary school with special needs kids in 464 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:57,760 Plymouth and but it's in quite a poor area of Plymouth. 465 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:04,240 But the attitude of the parents in that area is, you know, well, 466 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,520 why would I teach my kids to to read? 467 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:10,320 Because, you know, we've lived on benefits our entire lives. 468 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,200 They're going to do the same. It's become a multi general 469 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,080 generational thing. Now why am I mentioning that? 470 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:21,640 Because well, two things, 1 is a policy and 1 is what actually 471 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:26,120 happened. So during COVID we had this idea 472 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:30,360 of furlough where people were effectively being paid to stay 473 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,600 at home and not be economically active. 474 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:37,120 And we have this future policy which is being trialled and has 475 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,040 been trialled in many places called universal basic income, 476 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:44,600 which is effectively to there or will be effectively there to 477 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:48,200 encourage this. Just as Charles was talking 478 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,400 about this lifestyle where you are effectively things are 479 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:55,200 provided for you by the state and there's no need to generate 480 00:29:55,200 --> 00:30:01,320 any kind of income from your own, your, your own enthusiasm 481 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,680 for any form of work or, or so on. 482 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:11,240 So, so you know, this is something which to me represents 483 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:17,720 one of the real negative aspects of of Western society, because 484 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:24,840 that reliance on the state makes us by default utterly controlled 485 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:28,120 by the state. Because if we are reliant on the 486 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,360 state for the things which entertain and the things which 487 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:39,400 put food in our mouths, actually then we only get that if we do 488 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,760 the right things, if we behave the right ways, if we say the 489 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:44,560 right things, if we think the right things. 490 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:49,720 And you know, anybody that's ever been involved in the 491 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,240 benefit system or the, the unemployment benefit system 492 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:58,080 knows that when you go into the job centre in the UK, if you 493 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,320 have not done the things that they consider that you should 494 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,480 have done, they will sanction you as an individual. 495 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,600 Just in the same way that it, on a geopolitical level, we, we 496 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:11,080 attempt to sanction other countries or more recently, 497 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,240 Donald Trump attempts to effectively sanction other 498 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,920 countries by imposing tariffs. If the, if those countries don't 499 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,280 behave, this gets brought down to the absolute individual 500 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:24,680 level. And and so my view is we've got 501 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:31,320 to reject that Social Security system. 502 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:36,120 We should not be demanding more benefits, We should be demanding 503 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:41,920 absolutely less and we should be much more self reliant in terms 504 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:47,120 of our income. In an interesting paradox, as 505 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:51,000 far as I can tell, China has no welfare state. 506 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,280 So it encourages people to to make their own way, which is a 507 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:57,480 good thing because it's exactly what you say, mark it. 508 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,320 It sort of encourages self-reliance. 509 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,840 Meanwhile, here in South Africa we have a pretty large welfare 510 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:09,160 state and we have a very big poor population that doesn't 511 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:14,840 seem to be getting any smaller and and we have an increasing 512 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:16,920 dependence on the state as a result. 513 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,560 I'm afraid to say I, I think, you know, I, I, I say perhaps 514 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,920 rather generously that it's that, you know, it's hard to 515 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:26,280 know whether it's chicken or egg. 516 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,400 I mean, I think, I think actually we can be quite certain 517 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:33,640 this, this is, this is what is brought about by the mechanism 518 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:37,680 described as the welfare state. It is not that it is a response 519 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:43,360 to the burgeoning crisis of poverty or whatever else. 520 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,120 It's being described as being it, it absolutely drives it. 521 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:49,000 It's, it's the other way round. An alternative is presented. 522 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,200 And, and the problem is that what has happened, it's 523 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,560 certainly in the United Kingdom and I dare say in South Africa 524 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:56,680 and anywhere else that this has been rolled out, is that it 525 00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,480 breaks down. I've talked about the family, 526 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:04,200 but also the other community structures that would 527 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:09,600 traditionally have supported people who were in need of help 528 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,760 for whatever reason. And that's not to act as a 529 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:17,080 deterrent at all to people making their own way as, as, as 530 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,880 we say, it is simply to provide that level of support when it's 531 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,040 necessary in order to get people back on their feet. 532 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:24,400 Of course, there's a kind of rear guard action. 533 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,240 Now, there are obviously a lot of charities that do do this, 534 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,560 but of course, that's again, a, a captured system because of the 535 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,480 way in which charities operate and, and all the specifics in 536 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:37,520 terms of financing that can be released at particular points. 537 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:41,000 And essentially that is also a trap for the people who are 538 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,920 within that system, which of course is enormously regrettable 539 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,320 because one, if you give people that, that are running these 540 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,080 charities the benefit of the doubt that their hands by and 541 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,560 large are tied by the state. But, but the, but the point is 542 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,040 that the, it's, you know, this is no different in a way from 543 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:56,800 the predicament that farmers find themselves in. 544 00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,760 And the moment you enter, say, an environmental scheme, not 545 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,960 only are you not producing food, but also you have rendered the 546 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:07,200 land that could be profitable to you in a time of need utterly 547 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:08,719 useless. Because if the government turns 548 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,000 off that tap, what do you do? In the same way now that if the 549 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:15,239 welfare tap is switched off, all those small scale structures and 550 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:19,080 community networks that did previous previously exist based 551 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,719 on the family unit or closely aligned to the family unit, 552 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,400 they're not there. And this is the problem with 553 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,679 state intervention. And you can apply that, I would 554 00:34:27,679 --> 00:34:31,199 say across the board. And the other aspect of this, of 555 00:34:31,199 --> 00:34:35,920 course, is it, it's not only increases the population that 556 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,199 are reliant on the state because because they're reliant on the 557 00:34:39,199 --> 00:34:42,080 state giving them the the money and, and the support that they 558 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:47,000 need, but it generates this massive state itself in the 559 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:51,840 sense that if you have this massive, overly complex benefits 560 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,960 Social Security system, you've got to have 10s of thousands of 561 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,600 people administering that and they're not really productive. 562 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:01,200 They're just shuffling bits of paper. 563 00:35:02,720 --> 00:35:06,080 But that they are therefore also reliant on the state for their 564 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:08,240 incomes. And the same when you have a 565 00:35:08,240 --> 00:35:11,840 massively overly complex tax system as we have, because 566 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:13,680 somehow you've got to fund all this stuff. 567 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:19,640 So, you know, it, it, it, it actually is not benefiting 568 00:35:19,720 --> 00:35:24,920 anybody having the, the state the size of the days in order to 569 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,880 administer a Social Security system, the size of the days in 570 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,000 order to keep people unproductive. 571 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,880 That's, that is just leading people down the path of total 572 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:36,960 control. And it's part of the technocracy 573 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:38,640 that's on its way. Because of course, this is all 574 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:43,960 being digitized and turned digital and turned AI. 575 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:49,360 And of course, you know, as with most other jobs in 50 years 576 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,880 time. Well, actually, maybe the, the, 577 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,720 the, the people that are reliant on, on administering the Social 578 00:35:56,720 --> 00:35:59,640 Security system for their incomes are going to find 579 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:03,640 themselves in a position where they aren't able to find a 580 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,920 productive job because they don't have any skills that can, 581 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:08,520 that, that are actually productive. 582 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:12,280 And, you know, AI will have taken over the administration of 583 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:16,480 the whole thing. So, so it's, it's not really a 584 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:20,320 win for anybody. You know, humanity over the 585 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:27,480 centuries has managed to be quite, what's the word I'm 586 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:36,240 looking for, creative in how it generates or creates economies. 587 00:36:37,240 --> 00:36:44,600 And I think the way out is to abandon the reliance on this big 588 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,600 nanny that we have. And, you know, we're not, we're 589 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,720 not stupid. We are capable of of generating 590 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:56,120 productive enterprise if we want to. 591 00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,080 And it's a question of motivation and a question of 592 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:04,840 having some ideas and a question of not taking the easy way. 593 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,880 What we have to be mindful of, and, and I would include the 594 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:11,800 audience listening to this in it, is that we, we mustn't 595 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:15,160 forget that the way in which we discuss this is from a 596 00:37:15,240 --> 00:37:19,440 particular perspective or indeed a degree of consideration that 597 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,320 the majority won't have run themselves through. 598 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:24,040 And I don't mean that in the patronising sense. 599 00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:27,520 I just mean that because we are considering these sorts of 600 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,200 things like government being a scam, which a lot of people 601 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,160 still haven't really cottoned onto, even if they might 602 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:37,960 mistrust, you know, this Labour government only to think, Oh 603 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,880 well, Reform would do a better job or the Tories would do a 604 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:45,160 better job or, or whatever. It is actually the the number of 605 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:48,280 people who have jumped that particular hurdle into thinking 606 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:52,320 about the, the subjects that have come up on today's session 607 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:55,400 are still pretty small. And I would say therefore that 608 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:59,480 for the people who are still receiving from the welfare 609 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:01,920 state, I'm not, I'm not just talking about the United 610 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:05,320 Kingdom, but but wherever this exists, for as long as people 611 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:09,640 can in effect suck on that teat, they are going to be very much 612 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,920 less inclined to do anything about it because it is still the 613 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:16,320 path of least resistance. I think amazingly as it might 614 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,680 seem for us, I think it's still the situation has to get quite a 615 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:21,920 lot worse before it will get better. 616 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,600 It's really only going to be driven by the suggestion of 617 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,400 there being a necessity to do something different. 618 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:32,760 And yes, of course over time people will realise this. 619 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,920 But I think for anyone who is trapped within that system and 620 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,640 sees that for them it is still working, then they're not going 621 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,760 to consider the alternative. I am, of course, speaking 622 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:47,360 generally. And one hopes that in a fairly 623 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,440 short period of time, more and more people will become alive to 624 00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:54,280 this. And also the, you know, the sort 625 00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:57,280 of multiplier effect, even if it's only within one small 626 00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:02,240 community that, you know, let's say 5 or 6 people who have led a 627 00:39:02,240 --> 00:39:05,880 life like this are captivated by some new initiative there. 628 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:10,000 Somebody has started a business and these people want to join 629 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,200 in. And that has a knock on effect. 630 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,400 I mean, I think it's going to be small activities like that 631 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:20,280 rather than a sort of widespread response to what we perceive to 632 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:25,440 be a, a, a disastrous system. But I, I, I do think, I mean, I, 633 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,560 I don't mean to sound negative in saying this, but I do think 634 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:32,200 that we shouldn't underestimate the degree to which other people 635 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:35,440 are not really considering the sorts of things that we're 636 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:37,680 talking about in the way that we look at them. 637 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:43,440 That's a good point and I'm reminded of the lunch that I was 638 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,840 having with Zooby and he made such a fascinating point. 639 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,040 It's so obvious actually, if you think about it, he said. 640 00:39:51,240 --> 00:39:53,240 Right here in Dubai, this is a desert. 641 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,320 It's the complete desert. It's hot, it's uncomfortable. 642 00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:58,200 And why on earth would you come here? 643 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:05,600 Well, 0% income tax and now I think only 5% VAT on some 644 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:09,000 products. It's a very welcoming 645 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:10,960 environment in terms of business. 646 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:14,600 And the people, as we said at the beginning of the show, in my 647 00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:18,000 experience, are extremely hospitable and and warm. 648 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:25,040 Metaphorically it. It's interesting how that 649 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:27,400 system, which is a monarchy, it's not even a democracy. 650 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:31,840 No voting can actually be very, very successful. 651 00:40:32,240 --> 00:40:37,640 Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's a very unusual case study in that 652 00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:43,280 it's a, it's a sort of almost blank canvas project. 653 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:48,360 You know, obviously it had there not been the that Creek there, 654 00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:50,360 it it wouldn't exist in that place. 655 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:54,320 And previously as somewhere that had really only hosted a little 656 00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:55,920 bit of Pearl. Yeah, yeah. 657 00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:58,280 But but, but, but what I what I mean is that in terms of 658 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:00,440 settlement, historical settlement, it was, it was only 659 00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:02,080 related to Pearl fishing. That was it. 660 00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:04,120 It was, it was basically nothing, nothing there. 661 00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:09,520 So to create something that has become now a sort of symbol of 662 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:13,840 modern development and all the rest of it was, was really very 663 00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,040 straightforward because there was nothing there that had to 664 00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:20,160 creak and groan and be adjusted to make it work as it, as it 665 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:21,960 does now. And therefore all the sorts of 666 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:25,720 incentives that you're talking about were not so easy to, 667 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:30,280 sorry, not so difficult to, to make work because of that way in 668 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:33,800 which it, it was sort of started from scratch. 669 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:38,240 Whereas you take London for example, which has thousands of 670 00:41:38,240 --> 00:41:41,040 years of history. It's, it's very difficult to see 671 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,320 and you, and you see this with say mobile telephone networks. 672 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:48,080 The, the, my impression of the United Kingdom mobile telephone 673 00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:51,080 network is that it is absolute rubbish and has been ever since 674 00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:54,840 I started using it, it has not got one job better in how many 675 00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:57,840 years it's been going. Whereas you go to countries that 676 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:00,920 have started their communications network from 677 00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:04,800 scratch because it was too difficult topographically to, to 678 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:06,840 roll out a landline network or whatever. 679 00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,880 And those systems work much better because again, within 680 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:13,520 that compressed period of time, you're starting something from 681 00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:18,480 scratch and you're able to. So, so Dubai or to an extent 682 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:23,040 probably Abu Dhabi are they're just weird, they're anomalous. 683 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,160 So I So what I'm saying is I don't know that you can 684 00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,920 necessarily take that model and applied anywhere else because 685 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:31,320 you're not starting from scratch and that's a difficulty. 686 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,680 It is a good point also about the history. 687 00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:39,840 I mean, if you think about some of those countries in the Gulf 688 00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,520 States, they don't have a very long history there. 689 00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:47,720 UAE what just a few decades old already at, at most with any 690 00:42:47,720 --> 00:42:51,240 kind of significant history, whereas the UK British history 691 00:42:51,240 --> 00:42:54,960 is thousands of years. And, and that also in some ways 692 00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:01,480 makes it difficult for any progress to occur. 693 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:04,440 If the trajectory is, is downwards like it is at the 694 00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:06,920 moment right across Europe. It's very difficult to turn that 695 00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:10,720 around. If you've got such a long, long 696 00:43:10,720 --> 00:43:15,160 history. It it kind of cements that that 697 00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:19,080 vector into One Direction and it's almost impossible to to to 698 00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:20,880 to change the direction of that vector. 699 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:24,440 Don't know how to answer that. That might, that might be, that 700 00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:31,720 might be a good observation. I, I think that I, I think that 701 00:43:31,720 --> 00:43:37,120 there certainly are no answers if you're expecting to turn the 702 00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:41,200 direction of government or the direction of big corporate 703 00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:43,760 entities. I, I think that the way that 704 00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:48,680 this works is from the bottom up and it, it starts with people 705 00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:54,080 recognizing the need to rebuild community and, and you know, and 706 00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:57,360 I'm, I'm not in any way attempting to underestimate how, 707 00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:01,560 how hard that is. It can be extremely difficult 708 00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:06,040 even just to stick your head over the, the wall between 709 00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:09,680 yourself and the neighbor and say hello, that, that absolutely 710 00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:14,280 can be extremely difficult. But I think that that simple act 711 00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:17,160 is in itself an act of resistance. 712 00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:19,880 And, and maybe that's where, that's where it starts. 713 00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:22,960 It just starts with having conversations with people and, 714 00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:28,000 and not necessarily, you know, beginning the conversation with, 715 00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:30,600 you know, something like, they're all out to kill us. 716 00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:35,480 You just have normal, normal conversations with people and, 717 00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:38,600 and just take it one step at a time and see, see what can be 718 00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:42,640 built out of it. And, and, and being willing to, 719 00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:47,000 to reconsider, you know, maybe it is the case that we have 720 00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:54,800 shifted ourselves from where we were born or whatever in order 721 00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:59,400 to pursue a career. Maybe it, maybe it is worth 722 00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:04,080 considering reconstituting the families that we have and so on. 723 00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:09,040 Maybe that's worth the effort. You know that that might be the 724 00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:12,160 way to start. I'm certain, I'm absolutely 725 00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:13,920 certain that that that is the way to start. 726 00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:18,200 Just to just to go back one on the history thing, I think it is 727 00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:20,160 absolutely a good point. I would say the the sort of 728 00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:24,000 stand out exception. Well, one obvious one is China, 729 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,800 because obviously China has a, a well documented, very rich 730 00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:31,120 ancient history and yet it's undergone very, very profound 731 00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:36,040 changes in recent times and they appear from the outside to have 732 00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:42,640 been top down changes made. I, I, I won't go on about that 733 00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:46,440 because obviously Carl Tsar has, has spoken to Mike about this in 734 00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:48,000 great detail. And I, I would encourage people 735 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:51,720 to go to listen to that. So I wonder whether it, I, I 736 00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:54,480 don't mean to say we're oversimplifying and we're 737 00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:57,240 therefore we're going to get it wrong, but it, it's certainly an 738 00:45:57,240 --> 00:45:59,800 element. I would say we're, we're 739 00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:06,040 probably closer to the mark with this idea that welfare or indeed 740 00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:12,280 intervention in the lives of individuals or in industries is 741 00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:14,400 in fact more of a significant factor. 742 00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,240 If we look at in the United Kingdom, what's happened since 743 00:46:17,240 --> 00:46:21,440 in particular the Second World War, if not the first, and the 744 00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:26,080 meddling with education, with what's called health, but isn't 745 00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:31,840 with agriculture, with industry and with utilities, then I think 746 00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:36,160 I, I certainly would come to a different conclusion and that a 747 00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:39,720 natural fact. It's this idea of intervention. 748 00:46:39,720 --> 00:46:44,160 I don't think that our long it's to, you know, to describe the 749 00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:45,640 long history. I mean, just go back to the UE. 750 00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:47,800 Of course there's a history, but it just doesn't, it didn't have 751 00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:50,920 a history that's either documented or that was one of 752 00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:54,240 large settlements being in the same place at the same time. 753 00:46:54,240 --> 00:46:56,600 We've talked about this sort of thing previously in terms of 754 00:46:56,640 --> 00:47:00,120 lifestyle being more nomadic than it is now and that kind of 755 00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:01,120 thing. So I think there are a whole lot 756 00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:04,040 of factors that we probably can't bring in quite now, but 757 00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:10,640 but I would say that that really history and sort of outcomes 758 00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:15,360 don't necessarily have to be dictated by the the length of 759 00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:17,760 that perceived history. It's rather more to do with the 760 00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:21,720 what has been allowed to happen along the way, and indeed the 761 00:47:21,720 --> 00:47:27,040 way in which the state has been able to confect and then utilise 762 00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:30,920 states of emergency to propagate particular results which have a 763 00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:33,560 very negative consequence for the population who are ensnared 764 00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:37,960 by them. I think the overarching comment 765 00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:44,080 here though, is that there isn't a formula that applies across 766 00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:46,320 the board. It does definitely seem to be 767 00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:49,880 the case that different populations or different groups 768 00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:55,760 of people respond differently to to different ways of governance. 769 00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:58,680 It you can't say, well, we're going to take democracy there. 770 00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:00,640 If if they don't want it, they don't want it. 771 00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:04,080 I don't think it's even a case of, of taking democracy that if, 772 00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:07,320 if we were just taking democracy, you know, the, the 773 00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:10,000 way that the mission, you know, the way that missionaries took 774 00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:14,000 Christianity or whatever. If we were taking it to other 775 00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:16,680 countries and we were, we were trying to sell it as a concept, 776 00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:18,680 that would be one thing. But that's not what we're doing. 777 00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:22,080 We're imposing it. We're saying if you, we're 778 00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:25,880 saying we will give you all this cash if you become a democracy 779 00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:28,320 or, or we're saying if you don't become a democracy, we're, 780 00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:31,240 there's, we're going to run a regime change war against you. 781 00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:36,920 You know, it's, it's that, that in itself, the entire approach 782 00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:41,160 that we have taken on, on our exporting of democracy to, to 783 00:48:41,240 --> 00:48:47,800 developing countries should give us a clue about what democracy 784 00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:50,800 is. It's not what we think it is. 785 00:48:50,800 --> 00:49:00,400 And you know, really, if, if, if the entire basis of our selling 786 00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:03,920 to or or or of sorry, if our entire basis of, of installing 787 00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:07,160 democracy in another country is that you have no choice about 788 00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:11,480 whether you take it or not, then then you know, it. 789 00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:13,080 Does nobody see the irony in that? 790 00:49:13,720 --> 00:49:19,080 So I was just thinking of your, of the reference there to to 791 00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:22,400 missionaries, for example, and thinking about David 792 00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:25,960 Livingstone, who is arguably the best known missionary of the 793 00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:30,560 Victorian era. And a couple of things of note. 794 00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:38,120 First of all, in terms of his success at in his mission, it's 795 00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:42,560 it's reported that in actual fact, he only in all his time 796 00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:46,880 exploring the African continent, he only converted one person to 797 00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:50,960 Christianity. He he had converted to but one 798 00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:55,560 subsequently decided that actually it wasn't for him and 799 00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:58,760 he was a oh, sorry, I forget who he was. 800 00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:01,560 So, so so the result was that he converted one person to 801 00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:03,960 Christianity successfully during that period of time, which 802 00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:09,200 extended for at least 2 decades. And, and also it's reported that 803 00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:12,960 one tribal chief found the idea of Christianity so hilarious 804 00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:15,920 that he stood on his head whilst laughing about it. 805 00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:19,720 So that was one thing, but, but look at where, look at where 806 00:50:19,720 --> 00:50:23,600 Christianity in Africa is now. And Livingstone could not 807 00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:27,200 possibly have foreseen that that was going to happen, although he 808 00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:31,120 would have hoped for it. So that has been a fascinating 809 00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:34,280 thing to watch play out nearly 200 years later. 810 00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:37,960 And, and then the, the other thing, going back to perspective 811 00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:43,560 from exploring and travelling and seeing other cultures, it is 812 00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:46,440 quite remarkable to think the ground he covered and, and the 813 00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:48,600 astonishing things he saw. And it just, I mean, it's an 814 00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:50,440 anecdote and I'm not really sure why I'm bringing it in, but I 815 00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:54,320 just think it's so remarkable. He, he is reputed to have 816 00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:56,680 discovered in the way that only Westerners could because 817 00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:58,560 apparently nobody there could actually see these things. 818 00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:01,760 But he, he was supposed to have discovered the, what's now 819 00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:05,360 called the Victoria Falls, Mossso, Ortonia in 1855. 820 00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:09,120 And yet he passed through that very area 5 years previously and 821 00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:10,840 was told about it. And he could even hear the 822 00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:14,400 waterfalls and he could see what is the smoke that thunders the, 823 00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:16,120 the spray that comes up off the falls. 824 00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:18,280 But he said, no, I'm sorry, I'm too busy. 825 00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:21,640 I've got a crack on and I'm not going to look at it now despite 826 00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:24,000 being that close to it. And it wasn't until five years 827 00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:26,280 later that he went back and found it. 828 00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:28,120 So I'm not sure if there's necessarily moral of the story 829 00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:33,160 there, but it is incredible to think that his perspective going 830 00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:36,240 back to the beginning of the conversation was such that he 831 00:51:36,240 --> 00:51:39,360 was focused on presumably getting to wherever it was, or 832 00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:42,840 indeed his mission to convert people to Christianity, that he 833 00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:46,480 ignored what is widely regarded as probably the greatest natural 834 00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:49,640 wonder of that region of of all of Africa. 835 00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:53,320 Totally bizarre. To what degree one can attribute 836 00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:58,960 his explorations and efforts to what has transpired 837 00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:01,680 subsequently, I wouldn't know. And as I say, it's sort of 838 00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:04,760 humorous that that it's a bit like Jack the Ripper being the, 839 00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:08,480 the, the most notorious serial killer killer ever. 840 00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:11,160 But actually I say only, I mean, he killed 5 people. 841 00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:13,880 And I think if you straw poll, most people think it was many 842 00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,000 more than that. And and Livingston having only 843 00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:19,040 successfully converted one person sort of seems ridiculous. 844 00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:23,040 But actually then look now look at look at how how dominant the 845 00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:27,080 Christian Church in Africa has become and how interestingly, 846 00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:31,960 you know, they in particular have rejected, well, it was in 847 00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:34,880 particular Justin Welby. I know that seems like a bit of 848 00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:37,840 a sidetrack, but it but it, but the, the point is going like a 849 00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:40,080 bit like the sort of too early to tell with the French 850 00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:43,600 Revolution. We, we can't really know what's 851 00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:46,680 going to happen as a result of these sorts of actions, all 852 00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:48,680 these sorts of things we're we're discussing now. 853 00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:50,800 But I think we have to remain hopeful and we have to 854 00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:56,520 continually talk about the the the positive benefits of exactly 855 00:52:56,520 --> 00:52:59,960 like Mike was just saying, you know, reinvigorating the family 856 00:52:59,960 --> 00:53:02,240 unit and making that the most important thing. 857 00:53:03,720 --> 00:53:06,480 Mike, it's coming for a landing. Let's close off with a 858 00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:09,800 concluding thought from you based on this conversation. 859 00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:13,560 You always do this to me. Concluding thoughts? 860 00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:15,640 What am I supposed to? I don't know. 861 00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:17,800 Concluding thoughts? My goodness me. 862 00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:26,680 Look, I, I would, I would just say that, you know, we all 863 00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:30,120 recognize, I think we've had a good conversation here. 864 00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:32,040 We all recognize what the issues are. 865 00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:37,320 We absolutely lots of people find those issues to be 866 00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:42,800 completely overwhelming. And if, if that's the case, then 867 00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:47,680 maybe we just need to be going back to basics and thinking 868 00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:50,400 about how we how we build our own societies. 869 00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:53,040 Again, this, as we know, according to the current 870 00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:58,200 definition, definition of extremism is an extremist view. 871 00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:02,840 I think that we should reject the forms of extremism that the 872 00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:05,320 British government and the British media are pushing us 873 00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:11,320 into and grab with both hands that definition of extremism and 874 00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:16,200 run with it. Mike Charles, I'll see you gents 875 00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:16,640 next week.