1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,800 Good morning to the UK column, listeners. 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:05,800 Well, actually, it's an early good morning. 3 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:08,000 It's reasonably early. It's 8:00 here. 4 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:11,680 I'm in a very dark, rainy Plymouth. 5 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:16,480 It's still pretty dark outside. It's raining very heavily. 6 00:00:17,240 --> 00:00:21,880 Poppy the dog took a little look outside the door, decided that 7 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:26,160 she didn't need to go out. So I'm here to do a little bit 8 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:29,760 of work from home. Today's a special day because 9 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:35,520 I've got a very special guest, a lady, well, a woman who's agreed 10 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:39,480 to speak to me under my Gutsy Women series. 11 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:43,320 And I'm really pleased to have Eva Bartlett with me this 12 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:47,080 morning. And Eva, you're there in Moscow. 13 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,160 Thank you for joining me. What's the weather like? 14 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:53,560 Thank you so much, Brian, for your kind introduction and it's 15 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:54,920 really an honor to speak with you. 16 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:56,880 I admire the work you've done over the years. 17 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:01,720 So thank you for, for doing this and for thinking to include me 18 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:05,720 as a gutsy woman. So I'm in Moscow, oblast the 19 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:10,280 countryside, I'm in a lovely, serene area. 20 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:13,320 It's it's it's very quiet. It's my, I love the city. 21 00:01:13,320 --> 00:01:15,160 It's a beautiful city but I prefer to live in the 22 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:19,960 countryside with my two dogs, which I adopted after moving to 23 00:01:19,960 --> 00:01:22,920 Moscow and we've had beautiful snow. 24 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:26,560 In fact you'd think I had cross country skis before now. 25 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:28,920 I I did as a teenager back in Ontario. 26 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:31,920 But the other day I finally went and bought myself a pair of 27 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:36,880 cross country skis, my third year in Russia, and decided I'd 28 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:39,040 finally get back on the snow because it's just been 29 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:41,320 absolutely picturesque and gorgeous. 30 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:44,880 It's it's a bit warmer today so I'll have to wait for the next 31 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:48,160 snowfall, but when it happens I'll be out there. 32 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:53,480 Yeah, excellent. Well, I've never been to Russia. 33 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:57,280 I've always found it a fascinating country. 34 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:02,840 When I was doing my military time in the UK many, many years 35 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:08,680 ago, I wasn't allowed to go. I wasn't allowed to go into the 36 00:02:08,759 --> 00:02:13,880 Warsaw Pact areas or Russia. That was all due to security 37 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:16,960 clearances, but it was pretty strict at that time. 38 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:21,680 So Russia's the place I've never been to, but it's a fascinating. 39 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:25,600 Clearly it's a fascinating country and in my mind, well, 40 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:29,320 maybe not surprisingly, I'm always fascinated when I see the 41 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:34,000 pictures with a really heavy frost and snow, and particularly 42 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:38,160 some of those iconic buildings. First question, sorry, how do 43 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:43,000 you get from, how did you get from Ontario to living in 44 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:44,920 Moscow? I know this really takes you 45 00:02:44,920 --> 00:02:48,040 through a big chunk of your life, but you you're there 46 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:52,680 living, living in Moscow, you're working as a journalist, you're 47 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:56,040 covering some really troubled spots in the world and you're 48 00:02:56,040 --> 00:03:00,480 putting yourself at great risk. How did that journey start? 49 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:03,960 Just take us back a little bit to, yeah. 50 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,000 I'll I'll take you back a little bit further given that I was 51 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:13,040 born in Michigan in the US. My my parents were musicians and 52 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:17,600 by the time I was around three 3 1/2, they decided they wanted to 53 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,040 move to Canada. So we did. 54 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:23,640 We moved to Western Canada. They taught at a university in 55 00:03:23,640 --> 00:03:26,600 British Columbia for a couple of years and then we moved to 56 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,400 Winnipeg, MB, where I lived for five years. 57 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:34,760 So you know, this icy, cold, snowy weather you're describing, 58 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:38,080 It's something I'm very familiar with from my childhood, from 59 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:42,560 Winnipeg and then Ontario. We moved to Ontario, a very 60 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:44,360 small town in Ontario when I was 10. 61 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:49,480 And that's where I spent the next, you know, well off and on 62 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:56,240 until 2015 when we moved to the family home and my mother to a 63 00:03:56,240 --> 00:04:01,480 different city in Ontario. But when I was, I forgot now. 64 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:06,000 So basically when I went to high school in Ontario, we were the 65 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:09,040 only province to have 13 grades. Every other province had 12 66 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:11,440 grades. And our 13th grade was 67 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:13,480 supposedly to prepare us for university. 68 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:18,279 And in in the 12 and 13 years, a lot of the students took what we 69 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,240 called spares and they were in theory supposed to be for 70 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:22,880 studying. But most people played cards in 71 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,040 the cafeteria. I didn't take any spares. 72 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:28,200 I was kind of a nerdy high school student. 73 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:30,600 I did well in school. I'm not a critical thinker by 74 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:31,440 any means. I just. 75 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:35,000 I got decent, good grades. I was in the band, in the choir, 76 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:39,080 on the basketball team. It was generally a good high 77 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:41,520 school experience. But I did. 78 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:45,320 I I went through my 13th year quickly so I finished one 79 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:49,200 semester early and around that time my family decided to have a 80 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:51,200 my mom's side of the family's Irish. 81 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:54,440 They decided to have a meet up in Ireland and I thought that 82 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:56,560 would be cool. So I started working to save 83 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:00,600 money to go there and by the time I finally did make it there 84 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:02,680 the the family meet up had already come and gone. 85 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:06,440 This is all this is all a lead up to tell you how, in a very 86 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:09,080 roundabout way, how I actually got involved in anything 87 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:12,160 political. I I did make it to Ireland. 88 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:15,800 I ended up working there on Inishmore Island, if you know 89 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:18,840 that side of western Ireland, beautiful Gaelic area. 90 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:22,880 And then I started hitchhiking around the country and 91 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:27,360 volunteering on farms. And all that to say, in high 92 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:29,960 school I thought I would be a marine biologist, but I really 93 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:32,200 sucked at science. I really had to work hard to get 94 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:35,800 decent grades at science and I had a very romantic vision of, 95 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:37,280 you know, what I thought I would do. 96 00:05:37,280 --> 00:05:41,040 So then I came back to Canada after 1/2 year in Ireland 97 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:43,120 roughly. Didn't know what to do with 98 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:44,800 myself. I already played piano. 99 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:46,920 As I mentioned my parents were musicians. 100 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,120 I was also musical, so that's what I did. 101 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:51,000 I went to school on the East Coast, I studied. 102 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:56,680 I was going to do a degree in music, but then after a year in 103 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:00,480 my third year of university, I I studied in Strasbourg, France on 104 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:03,320 a French exchange program. And so I altered my degree 105 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:05,760 slightly and ended up with a major in music and minor in 106 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:07,920 French. Nothing to do with politics, 107 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:11,480 nothing to do with journalism. And I say that both to be clear 108 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:15,480 about how I came to journalism. But also I'm actually thankful 109 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:19,680 in a sense because I I am a product of the Western education 110 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:21,200 system. I mentioned I wasn't a critical 111 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:23,200 thinker. We're not really encouraged to 112 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:25,480 think critically, at least not where I went to school. 113 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:30,080 And I would say that's a general, a general fact, but 114 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:34,640 also I didn't absorb any of the the nonsense history and and 115 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:37,080 political stuff we would have been taught in high school. 116 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:41,960 I just wasn't interested. So I to me, that's a blessing 117 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:45,200 because when I finally, in my late 20s, did start becoming 118 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:49,720 politically active, the first issue being Palestine, I simply 119 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:51,800 was naive. I simply had no information 120 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,240 whatsoever. And so the information I was 121 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:57,000 taking in, of course, you know, you do have to parse. 122 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:01,320 Maybe I was taking in incorrect information, but I see in in, in 123 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:04,240 hindsight what I was, what I was reading and and viewing on 124 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:07,480 Palestine in my late 20s. It was correct and it was what 125 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:11,280 motivated motivated me to finally to go to Palestine, 126 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:16,520 which I did in May 2007. I went there on my own. 127 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:23,040 I went via Jordan on my own dime, my own dollar, and this is 128 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:26,240 after I had spent some years in South Korea teaching English and 129 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:29,480 also just travelling very simply in Southeast Asia. 130 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:32,080 So I had started to wake up to the world. 131 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:34,400 And that's when I started looking at news and coming 132 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:38,440 across the issue of Palestine, which when I first saw anything 133 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:41,240 to do with it and heard anything to do with it, I was, like I 134 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:43,640 said, naive. I didn't know anything about it. 135 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:46,840 And when I started watching videos, for example during the 136 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:50,640 second intifada of Israeli soldiers methodically breaking 137 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:54,080 arms of Palestinian farmers, this is part of their quashing 138 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:57,680 of the Palestinian uprising, was just to oppress the entire 139 00:07:57,680 --> 00:07:59,920 people as much as possible. I would. 140 00:07:59,920 --> 00:08:02,120 I remember sitting at my computer and just sobbing and 141 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:04,480 sobbing and sobbing and thinking, you know, very 142 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:06,360 naively, how can this be happening? 143 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:11,480 How can the world be like this and also deciding that at some 144 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:14,440 point I had to go and see for myself and I don't know why, but 145 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:18,080 that's always been kind of a drive in me to the places I have 146 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:21,080 been reporting on to actually over there and and talk to 147 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:23,760 people and see with my own eyes and hear with my own ears. 148 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:27,800 Even if if I can just just come in there, if I may, key question 149 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:31,840 you, you say you were looking at material that was talking about 150 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:34,720 Palestine. Since you're a journalist, where 151 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:37,840 where did you go to find at that time? 152 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:41,360 Where did you go to find information about Palestine? 153 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:45,840 So I will, I will answer this with a caveat because whereas 154 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:49,640 Democracy Now at the time was reporting in my opinion. 155 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:52,560 Well, I mean, I don't remember all the nuances of their 156 00:08:52,560 --> 00:08:56,280 reporting at the time, but I was an avid listener to Democracy 157 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:58,360 Now at the time. This is in the early 2000s. 158 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:02,200 I was still living in South Korea and every day I would 159 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,000 TuneIn to Democracy Now and there was a lot of coverage of 160 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,520 what was happening in Palestine and from there from whatever 161 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:11,280 links they had. I don't honestly remember the 162 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:13,960 other sites I was looking at. I I did at some point come 163 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:17,000 across the International Solidarity Movement, which I 164 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,760 eventually would join in 2007 in in the West Bank and later in 165 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:23,680 Gaza. But I have to say, yeah, 166 00:09:23,680 --> 00:09:28,000 Democracy Now was the 1st place I was I I started hearing about 167 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:29,480 it. And the reason I give this 168 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:32,800 caveat is that whereas you know whatever reporting they did at 169 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:36,400 the time did awaken me to the issue of, you know, issues of 170 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:39,880 what was happening in Palestine. They're later reporting for 171 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:44,200 example, on Syria or on Libya or on pretty much anything to do 172 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:45,880 with Russia. I don't, I don't even know their 173 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:48,280 really their take on Ukraine and Russia. 174 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,280 I can imagine what it is. But because they're later 175 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:56,120 reporting basically aligned with Western or NATO narratives on 176 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:59,640 critical issues. So that was, you know, in all 177 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,560 honesty that's where I first started hearing about things And 178 00:10:02,560 --> 00:10:05,320 then the ISM. I don't know if your listeners 179 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:09,160 are aware, but in in summary, it's a I'm no longer affiliated 180 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:14,800 with them, but I do respect the concept of what ISM volunteers 181 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,000 were doing. Basically internationals from 182 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:21,280 all over the world, all faiths, all ages going for however long 183 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:25,200 they can go to to Palestine. Most area, most of the time it's 184 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:27,960 it's in the West Bank because Gaza is impossible to reach. 185 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:31,840 I will tell you how I got to Gaza, but most of the time it's 186 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:33,800 the West Bank. And they they go and they bear 187 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:36,960 witness to the various aspects of the Israeli occupation. 188 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:40,480 And they put out, you know, to the best of their abilities. 189 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:43,240 They put out journalistic reports and what they're seeing, 190 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:47,160 whether it's Israeli invasions or the attacks of the illegal 191 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:50,040 Israeli colonists on Palestinian civilians, etcetera, etcetera. 192 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:52,480 So that's also one of the prime sources. 193 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,320 I was getting information and that's when I said I decided I 194 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:58,640 would go to Palestine. It was because I'd seen the 195 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:01,160 reports of such activists. OK. 196 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:07,280 So, so your journey started there in 2000 and 2007 and 197 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,040 you've already, you've already told us a lot of interesting 198 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:14,240 things there because you've you've had a lot of experience, 199 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:17,400 you're describing a lot of experience, you've lived in 200 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:21,120 different countries, you've had different parts to your 201 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:25,160 education and then ultimately you've you've moved abroad. 202 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:30,240 So I'm smiling to myself because I'm thinking yes, this sounds 203 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:33,080 like the background of somebody who wasn't going to accept the 204 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:37,840 the the norm was was going to going to get in amongst it. 205 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:43,440 So so 2007 you you took the decision to go to Palestine. 206 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:47,560 So tell us how, how did that actually happen and how did you 207 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:52,880 get into the country? So let's see, 2007. 208 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:56,080 I'm just trying to remember it was my own, my own funding. 209 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:00,000 I would have been working various, you know, simple jobs 210 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,680 like I'd worked as a waitress back then. 211 00:12:03,680 --> 00:12:08,280 I wasn't writing anything. I wasn't publishing anything. 212 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:13,640 And in journalistically, I had been helping a journalist from 213 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:18,320 Gaza who I'd met in Washington DC I'd been helping him with 214 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:20,640 editing nuances in English language. 215 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:25,800 So doing that I was, I was learning some journalistic 216 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:28,200 concepts. But again, that was just my own 217 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:30,920 initiative. When I went to the West Bank, I 218 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:33,120 went to Jordan, to Amman, Jordan. 219 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,560 I spent a few days there and then I crossed over the Allenby 220 00:12:35,560 --> 00:12:39,600 Bridge and was granted a three month visa. 221 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:43,800 Now I I state that when I went there, I anticipated not being 222 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:46,360 allowed in because I had spoken with other international 223 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:50,320 activists and I'd read the accounts of the many being 224 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:54,800 banned, entry or deported because it was generally 225 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,000 understood that Israel didn't want people there to witness 226 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:00,880 what was happening, what they're doing, the Israeli forces, the 227 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:03,640 the crimes of the occupation. I went there anticipating it 228 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:07,200 wouldn't be allowed in. My my my feeling is that I 229 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:09,960 looked like enough of a young backpacker tourist that I was 230 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:13,000 allowed in. I was granted a three month visa 231 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:14,920 for the first two or three weeks. 232 00:13:15,680 --> 00:13:18,080 I had already made contact with a group called Combatants for 233 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:22,680 Peace that comprised Palestinians and Israelis who in 234 00:13:22,680 --> 00:13:26,200 some capacity had taken part in fighting. 235 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:28,360 So the Israelis would have been for the most part. 236 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:32,080 If I recall, they were members of the Israeli forces, which 237 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:34,320 every Israeli citizen has to be in any case. 238 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:37,200 And Palestinians. It could be something as little 239 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,640 as throwing a rock to being active combatants, Palestinian 240 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:45,000 resistance fighters, and now I'm no longer in touch with them. 241 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:47,400 But I thought it would be interesting to start my 242 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:50,240 experience in Palestine by by hearing their sides, hearing the 243 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:52,640 Palestinian side, hearing Israeli sides as much as I 244 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:56,880 could, before then going on to join the international 245 00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:59,720 solidarity movement, which I decided that I really wanted to 246 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:03,800 do because I figured that I would see what I've been reading 247 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:05,640 about and that I could write about it. 248 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:09,520 So again, I don't remember exactly how long I joined 249 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:12,520 meetings with this Combatants for Peace, but I will say one 250 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:14,080 interesting thing that I do remember. 251 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:18,000 I don't remember the man's name but I remember going with this 252 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,800 group to some Israeli neighborhood and the a former 253 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:24,400 Israeli soldier spoke about his awakening moment. 254 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:26,880 He basically said something like he was ready to kill. 255 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,560 I don't remember the number if it was 100,000 or 100 thousands, 256 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,600 hundreds of thousands. Arabs they they he wouldn't say 257 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:37,520 Palestinians just Arabs for the safety of his country. 258 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:41,240 And again paraphrasing that's effectively what he said and 259 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,560 then he had his aha awakening moment. 260 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:47,320 These aren't just animals or people that I can kill, you 261 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:50,040 know, without remorse. They're actually people. 262 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:53,560 When he had his gun pointed at a child who was roughly the same 263 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:57,480 age as his own kid, and that's what jolted him awake as he 264 00:14:57,480 --> 00:14:59,600 said. And from that moment on, he 265 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,240 realized, you know, he had been heavily propagandized. 266 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:05,480 He I don't remember his whole evolution, but there's there's 267 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:09,640 many such stories on the Breaking the Silence website of 268 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:14,320 former Israeli soldiers and things, even acts of 269 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:18,720 monstrosities or certainly violence, they participated in 270 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,160 and you know felt the need to speak out about. 271 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:26,280 So that was my my experience like one of my experiences with 272 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:31,240 this group and then I I went and I had non violence training with 273 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,760 the ISM cause the whole principle of the ISM. 274 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:35,800 Now I'm again paraphrasing, I don't want to speak on their 275 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:39,680 behalf but basically it is they go to places where there is 276 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:42,000 violence. They they violence primarily 277 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:44,440 being from the Israeli army or illegal colonists. 278 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:46,760 They document they don't fight back. 279 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:49,840 So if if a colonist is attacking us, we don't fight back we turn 280 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:51,320 away. So that was one of the non 281 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:53,720 violence techniques was just turning your shoulder away, 282 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,840 walking away if need be. OK, I think there's a line where 283 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:58,960 you could protect yourself if you're absolutely being beaten, 284 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:01,080 which many international activists have been. 285 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:05,000 But anyway, there were a a a couple of two or three days of 286 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:08,120 non violence training. And then we basically as 287 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:10,680 activists lived in different areas of the West Bank. 288 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:14,160 I spent a couple of weeks in Hebron or the Arabic Khalil. 289 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:20,520 I spent a lot of time in Nablus. I spent off and on months living 290 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:24,200 in tents of Palestinians in an area called Soussia, South of 291 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:26,520 Hebron. These Palestinians had been 292 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:29,960 displaced from their homes in the 80s, I think it was 80s or 293 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:33,800 90s by an Israeli closed military zone order, so they've 294 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:39,040 been expelled from their homes. Their homes had been old stone 295 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:42,360 homes, even cave homes, and they were forced to live like 296 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:46,520 hundreds of meters away in ramshackle tents, always at risk 297 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:48,680 of being demolished by the Israeli military. 298 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:52,200 Again under these pretexts like you don't have the right to be 299 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:57,800 here and also being attacked by Israeli colonists, nearby 300 00:16:57,800 --> 00:16:59,680 colonies. So we would sleep in the tents 301 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,280 to document when these things happened when and and and hoping 302 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:06,319 to deter such attacks. Now there are Israeli groups, 303 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,440 rights groups. One I remember is to Ayush. 304 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:15,280 I think it was TAYUSH and they would go down there and document 305 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:17,240 this, this kind of thing quite a bit. 306 00:17:17,319 --> 00:17:21,240 They would bring internationals, Israeli activists there to see 307 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:23,160 it as well. But at the time, we were in 308 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:26,200 nationals sleeping around the clock in these tents. 309 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:31,320 So that was very, I don't know, it was harsh to see. 310 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:34,760 And it was in that area that I saw Israeli colonists literally 311 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:38,240 taking over Palestinian land. They basically aggressed. 312 00:17:38,360 --> 00:17:41,480 They'd beaten and aggressed the older Palestinian farmers that 313 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:45,120 had deeds to land to such an extent that farmers were afraid 314 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:47,240 to go on their land because they'd be beaten again and 315 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:49,440 nobody would protect them. The Israeli police won't protect 316 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:51,000 them, the military won't protect them. 317 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:55,240 They were trying to get the rights to their land back to the 318 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,440 Israeli legal system. And as they did that, the 319 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,520 colonists were given permission. I don't remember, you know, the 320 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:03,760 bodies that do this, but they were allowed to work on the 321 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,320 land, and they were doing so. They had fenced it off. 322 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,600 They planted grapevines, and they were bragging about the 323 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:12,000 money they were going to earn by by stealing that land 324 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:13,560 unabashedly. And this kind of thing is 325 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:15,240 happening all the time. But, you know, that's one 326 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,680 instance I saw with my own eyes over the course of several 327 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:22,880 weeks. We spent time in villages, for 328 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:26,560 example, around Nablus, that would come under Israeli raids 329 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:28,920 and they would announce what they called curfews, which meant 330 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:31,280 if you set foot on the street as a Palestinian, you could be 331 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:34,160 arrested or shot. And the curfews. 332 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:36,720 It was pretty terrifying. When the Israeli military would 333 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:39,680 blast into the town, particularly at night, it was 334 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:46,440 they'd have their sirens blaring their their their announcements 335 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:50,760 blaring that they'd often fire tear gas or shoot up at, shoot 336 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:52,600 at homes. They'd barge into homes and 337 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:56,640 abduct Palestinians under you know some promise of 338 00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:59,880 self-defense or these people had committed some alleged crime. 339 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:06,880 And as I would see and if you follow Palestine in closely at 340 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:11,120 all in in many case in in what's happening in Gaza now is a 341 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,960 perfect example. The Israeli side, the Israeli 342 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,640 authorities can allege something they never have to provide any 343 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,240 sort of evidence. And then they can commit heinous 344 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:23,040 crimes, whether it's abducting people from their homes, killing 345 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,360 people in their homes, bulldozing homes or destroying 346 00:19:26,360 --> 00:19:29,280 homes by other means. Or in the case of Gaza, as we're 347 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:32,680 seeing plain out now, destroying hospitals, bulldozing hospitals, 348 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,360 you know, bombing schools with refugees in them, et cetera, et 349 00:19:36,360 --> 00:19:40,760 cetera. Also in the West Bank, I went, I 350 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:43,800 don't remember, maybe 10 times to the village of Bill Lane, 351 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:48,200 which has lost at least 60% of their land to the wall. 352 00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:51,200 The what what many people would call the apartheid wall, what 353 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:56,360 ISRO calls its wall for security and every Friday now I'm not 354 00:19:56,360 --> 00:19:58,440 sure. I haven't been there since 2007 355 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,720 and unfortunately you know my my attention has been diverted to 356 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:04,360 many places. I still of course follow and and 357 00:20:04,360 --> 00:20:06,440 and very concerned about Palestine, but I'm not sure if 358 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,200 they're still demonstrating every Friday, but at least back 359 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,520 then, every Friday they would demonstrate nonviolently and 360 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,480 very creatively on their land protesting the theft of their 361 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,000 land. And at least 10 times I went 362 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,760 with them and was usually at the front with the leaders of these 363 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:24,160 demonstrations and the leaders being people, there was not one 364 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:26,840 leader. I I should rephrase that there 365 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:29,320 were a few people who were perceived as leader, but it was 366 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:31,400 almost the entirety of the village that would go to these 367 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:35,400 demos and we would walk down the road and Israeli soldiers would 368 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,920 put razor wire across the road and then they'd start firing 369 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:42,520 high velocity tear gas canisters, rubber coated metal 370 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:44,960 bullets and even live ammunition at the crowd. 371 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:48,080 And I saw this on on many, many occasions. 372 00:20:48,120 --> 00:20:51,480 And they again, later they would say, well, you know, there was a 373 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:53,200 security threat, so we had to do this. 374 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:56,680 But when I was there, I saw they always started firing before any 375 00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:59,120 young Palestinian took a slingshot and lobbed Iraq. 376 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:01,760 You know, So that's the kind of things I could talk more and 377 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:05,200 more for actually many hours about what I was seeing. 378 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:07,640 Eva, just just let me ask you a question there. 379 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:10,000 Were you scared? Did you find it frightening? 380 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:11,480 What? What was happening around? 381 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:12,240 You. Absolutely. 382 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:17,080 There was 1 village I was in. OK, so in this in Baleen I'll 383 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,240 finish talking about that. One of the things we would as 384 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,920 activists would do would try to prevent Palestinians from being 385 00:21:24,120 --> 00:21:28,760 abducted because as I mentioned the whole village, pretty much 386 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:30,280 the whole village was protesting. 387 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:35,320 But what the Israelis army will do is they'll do raids, day or 388 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:39,560 night raids into the village and they will abduct in prison those 389 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:41,800 who they perceived to be leaders because they think that if they 390 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,960 take the person A or B then the village will stop protesting. 391 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,560 But of course that didn't happen because the whole village knew 392 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,920 what it was protesting for. One of the things we would do, 393 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,680 it's if we saw the army was taking someone from the village 394 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,240 and it was for no reason whatsoever they had done nothing 395 00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:59,200 wrong. We would latch onto them, We 396 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:03,240 would physically grab onto them. There was one time when about 397 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,920 four people I was holding on to one man and three other 398 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:08,800 activists I think were holding on to him and the whole pile of 399 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:12,600 people fell on top of me. This as soldiers surrounded us 400 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:14,920 and were kicking at us. I I don't remember, but I was 401 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:16,040 told they were kicking at my head. 402 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,960 Quite have heard. And then they threw, they lobbed 403 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,160 a tear gas canister right at us when they couldn't take the man. 404 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:24,680 And so, you know you're in a massive cloud of tear gas. 405 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:26,760 That was at the time frightening, but then it would 406 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,520 get worse. Months later, I was in a village 407 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,480 called Azun. This is one of the villages that 408 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:38,880 was coming under night raids, and Israeli soldiers fired some 409 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:43,120 sort of flash or flare directly at the window of the apartment I 410 00:22:43,120 --> 00:22:44,360 and other activists were staying in. 411 00:22:44,360 --> 00:22:51,000 So that was at the time, scary. But, you know, I was the first 412 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,200 time I was detained. I was in Hebron. 413 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,360 I was with a female activist. We had been standing at a 414 00:22:56,360 --> 00:23:00,040 checkpoint. So I'm sure your listeners know, 415 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,800 but if not, there's, I don't even know the number of 416 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:04,920 checkpoints, hundreds and hundreds of checkpoints 417 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,040 throughout the West Bank, which is supposed to be Palestinian 418 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,480 territory. They can be full on turnstiles. 419 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:12,080 They could be two jeeps parked together. 420 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,520 They could be checkpoints and roadblocks. 421 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,520 And this one in Hebron was a turnstile checkpoint, and it was 422 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,280 near the main mosque, the Ibrahimi Mosque, and we're 423 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,480 standing there. And Israeli soldiers were doing 424 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:27,200 what is a common tactic. They'd taken the the Huiyas, the 425 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,240 IDs, So the Palestinians, they were holding them for hours. 426 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:33,200 And so if the Palestinians don't have their IDs, they can't go 427 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,640 anywhere because if they're stopped without an ID, they're 428 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:39,040 straight to Israeli prison. So they're standing there 429 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,000 detained because the Israeli soldiers, for no reason other 430 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:43,920 than pure harassment, are holding their IDs. 431 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,480 And so we confronted them and said, you know, we're watching 432 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:47,640 you. We see what you're doing. 433 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,360 Why are you doing this? You know, I can't remember all 434 00:23:50,360 --> 00:23:52,640 the legal aspects behind like what you can say in that 435 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,080 instance. So we were detained and we were 436 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:58,560 taken to some police installation for a couple hours. 437 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:00,680 That was scary. But then the next time I was 438 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:04,200 arrested for two days, handcuffed and shackled for all 439 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,160 that time. That was scary. 440 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:08,880 And that was because we had been with Palestinians who were 441 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:14,200 protesting illegal roadblocks in their village, Sara leading, 442 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:18,000 which would cut off a road that would lead them to Nablus and it 443 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,720 would be like a 5 minute drive. But because that road was cut 444 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:24,160 off, this meant they had to take a very roundabout route with 445 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,680 many roadblocks and checkpoints in the way. 446 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,360 So meaning what should have been a 5 minute drive could take one 447 00:24:29,360 --> 00:24:32,360 or two or more hours. And of course, obviously this is 448 00:24:32,360 --> 00:24:34,800 an annoyance, but if you have like an emergency, a medical 449 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:36,480 emergency, then it could be life or death. 450 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,840 And that's the other aspect of these roadblocks is that people 451 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:43,080 do die at them for want of medical attention. 452 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:45,280 So we had been with Palestinians. 453 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,880 They had removed these big concrete roadblocks by chains 454 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:53,400 and pulling and then the Israeli military returned or they 455 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,640 arrived and they said, OK, this is now a closed military zone, 456 00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,120 which is one of the things they can do to say anybody here is 457 00:25:00,120 --> 00:25:02,120 going to be arrested. This is a village. 458 00:25:02,120 --> 00:25:05,640 It's a village Rd. And so we protested and we were 459 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:11,560 taken and held in a a, a police station in one of the illegal 460 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,840 colonies near Nablus for two days. 461 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:19,920 And then finally we had, we had an Israeli, a lawyer who worked 462 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,440 with the ISM without, you know, fee. 463 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,840 She finally was intervened to help us and secure our release. 464 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,760 So that was, that was a little bit scary. 465 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:35,600 But I mean, you know, the real, the real scary things that I 466 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,560 endured were in Gaza. We can get to that. 467 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,920 But eventually I was deported. I was arrested another time and 468 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,080 deported and and told I was banned from returning to 469 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,840 Palestine. I spent several months, maybe 470 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:54,400 four months, in Egypt in 2008, a couple of those, almost two of 471 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,960 those at which of which I was near the Rafah crossing trying 472 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,480 to enter Gaza. I'd actually had an offer from 473 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,080 the Palestinian Center for Human Rights to go work there in the 474 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:06,680 English department. I had tried to go while still in 475 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,160 the West Bank through from the West Bank. 476 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:11,480 I hadn't been granted permission, so I didn't 477 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,640 physically go, but if I had, I'd wanted to go from the West Bank 478 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,560 through Israel into the Aras crossing and into Gaza. 479 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:20,760 But in my experience, the Aras crossing is notoriously 480 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,280 impossible for people to cross unless you're like the really 481 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,760 official international organization. 482 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:32,040 Fast forward to 2008, there was a Scottish delegation trying to 483 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,000 deliver medical supplies into Gaza. 484 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,720 They had said I could go with them if they could get in. 485 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:38,800 They they weren't able to get in. 486 00:26:39,360 --> 00:26:43,600 At that time there was a a boat movement trying to highlight the 487 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:47,800 siege Israel's imposed on Gaza since, well, 2006 really, but 488 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:51,880 fully since 2007. So they were sailing from Cyprus 489 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,960 to Gaza, and to be honest, none of us really thought they'd make 490 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,520 it. But astoundingly, they did. 491 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,640 And I think the first two boats arrived in August, if I recall 492 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:06,240 2008, and I'd I'd met some of the organizers the previous year 493 00:27:06,360 --> 00:27:08,280 in Hebron. And so I contacted them and 494 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,040 said, hey, I've been waiting, you know, in Egypt for a while 495 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:12,720 to try to get in. Could I join your movement? 496 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:16,040 They said yes. So in November I sailed from 497 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,840 Cyprus to Gaza and our boat also arrived. 498 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,200 Now I don't understand why it wasn't stopped. 499 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,280 We did have an Israeli gunboat flanking us about a kilometer to 500 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:30,000 the north and communicating with the the communicating with the 501 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,240 boat. And we had all collectively 502 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,240 decided that if they tried to intercept us, we would go forth, 503 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:41,200 even if it meant being arrested. There were a number of European 504 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:45,320 MPs on board that boat. Lord Ahmed Nazir, you might 505 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,720 know, was on that boat. And also Israeli journalist 506 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:50,920 Amira Haas, who writes for Haaretz. 507 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,200 She was on the boat That was very interesting. 508 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,560 And so that was the way I first got to Gaza because, you know, 509 00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:59,680 the rest of the rest of occupied Palestine was off limits to me 510 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,800 now. And having got there in November 511 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:08,160 2008, I stayed for another for a year and a half, eventually left 512 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:10,880 through Rafa and went back for another year and a half over the 513 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:15,640 course of the next few years. That's that's quite an adventure 514 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,720 and you just you describe being held for two days, shackled and 515 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:24,560 held for Tuesday for two days as as rather scary. 516 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:30,200 I I know people who've been taken into police stations here 517 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:34,240 in UK and held for a few hours and the effect on them is, is 518 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,840 quite considerable because this is them being taken out of 519 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:43,560 their, their frame of comfort. They're under the control of 520 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:48,480 other people they don't trust. And I know people who found just 521 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:52,800 that experience of going into police custody here in UK as 522 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:57,720 being very scary indeed. So I can imagine that you were 523 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:01,320 actually under some some stress because you're in a foreign 524 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,280 country, you can't trust the people. 525 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,320 You don't know what's going to happen, where we're getting 526 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:10,320 getting to with this this this takes a lot of guts to do so. 527 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:15,240 Eva, I admire you for doing that and you're on this journey in 528 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:19,760 order to understand first hand what's actually happening in in 529 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,800 Gaza and the West Bank. All credit to you. 530 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:25,640 So what? What happens next then? 531 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:30,160 How do you get deeper into this? So, so I arrived in Gaza in 532 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,840 November 2008 and I rejoined the ISM. 533 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:39,400 And I think I, I differ politically with ISM on their 534 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:42,000 stance or at least some members of the ISM on their stance 535 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,240 regarding Syria, which is one reason why I'm, I don't think 536 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:46,960 I'd be welcomed back in that organization. 537 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:51,320 But I respect what they do in Palestine and I was proud to 538 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:56,360 work with them. And so in Gaza, it's, I mean you 539 00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:00,840 can imagine that it's in it's in it's greatly intensified what 540 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,440 Palestinians endure in Gaza because Israel can bomb there at 541 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:08,640 any time as we're seeing now. But I think what maybe people 542 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:12,320 don't know if they're not falling so carefully is that the 543 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,040 things that Palestinian, for example, farmers and fishers 544 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:19,280 endure on a near daily basis. So that's that's 11. 545 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,520 Those are two areas where we devoted a lot of our time as 546 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,480 activists accompanying farmers, accompanying fishers. 547 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,440 And the reasons we did so was because when they venture, when 548 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,760 the fishers venture out into the water, whether on one of their 549 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,800 small trawlers with a an inadequate motor, because 550 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:40,680 they're not allowed to have them powerful motors. 551 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:44,360 Because the Israeli Navy will chase them, and they, the 552 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:49,080 Israeli Navy basically will attack them with if they're if 553 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:53,200 they're lucky, it's only high-powered water cannon, often 554 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,440 laced with some chemical compound smelling like 555 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:59,800 excrement. This is it is a powerful can 556 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,600 water cannon and does break structural elements. 557 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:06,040 It destroys navigational equipment, etcetera, Shatters 558 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,160 windows. But if they're lucky, it's only 559 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,440 that because otherwise the Israeli Navy will attack 560 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,640 Palestinian fishers with machine gunfire and with cannon fire. 561 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:18,000 So we would accompany the fishers to document that kind of 562 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:19,720 thing. Now I got there in November. 563 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:25,200 The 1st activist arrived in August and they spent months 564 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,160 accompanying the fishers. When I arrived in November, I 565 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:32,440 went out only the one time and then I don't remember the exact 566 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:33,560 date. I think was around November 567 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:39,120 18th, there were maybe three, sorry, six or seven of us there. 568 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,440 And so we had decided one day, OK, three people will go out 569 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,640 with the fishers and the rest of us will go to a demonstration 570 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:47,760 against the siege. And I think the demo is going to 571 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,440 be in northern Gaza. So we went there for the same 572 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:54,720 reason, to be there to document when Israeli firing on 573 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,320 protesters would commence, because that was another aspect 574 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:01,160 that I saw many times over with farmers and with unarmed 575 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,120 protesters is the Israeli army doesn't use tear gas, they just 576 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:08,800 start with sniper fire. So that day the three 577 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,160 internationals went out with the fishers and they were abducted 578 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:14,880 by the Israeli Navy along with, I think it was 15 Palestinian 579 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,720 fishers. The internationals were 580 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,040 eventually released. Most of the fishers were. 581 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:23,440 But this this is an aspect that gets almost no attention. 582 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:28,880 When the Israeli army attacks fishers, if they don't only fire 583 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,440 on them, they will abduct them. They will take their boats. 584 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:33,960 They will keep their boats or destroy them. 585 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:37,360 And they often keep the fishers imprisoned. 586 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,320 And then they'll ask them, because I we we interviewed a 587 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:43,400 number of fishers later, and many of whom have been 588 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:47,160 repeatedly attacked or abducted. And they would be asked, the 589 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:49,880 Israeli soldiers would be asking them for questions like 590 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,600 intelligence questions about Hamas or tunnels or stuff that 591 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,440 they had no idea. They're simple poor fishers. 592 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:59,880 These are like some of the poorest people in Gaza, and just 593 00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:01,440 one other point before I move on to farmers. 594 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:06,320 But the even the Israeli Navy will even fire on and abduct or 595 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,360 injure fishers that are on what they call a hasaka, which looks 596 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,120 like a surfboard. The Fisher paddles out, like 597 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,720 however far a kilometer or whatever drops their net. 598 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,160 And later from shore they pull the Nets in. 599 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:21,160 And so you can imagine a skinny Palestinian Fisher standing on 600 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,720 what looks like a surfboard. You know, there's quite visibly 601 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,480 no threat whatsoever to this massive Israeli gunboat and yet 602 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,560 they fire on them. So this whole pretext of Israel 603 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:34,400 firing on fishers as because the fishers, you know, are are 604 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,920 terrorists or, you know, a threat to their security, it's 605 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,080 just absolutely ridiculous. And that example, I think 606 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,880 highlights it with the farmers, and not only farmers, but 607 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:48,440 anybody in regions in the north or east, anywhere up to 1 or 608 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:52,120 even more more than one kilometer from the fence 609 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,280 imprisoning Gaza. Anybody in that region are at 610 00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:00,680 risk of being fired upon by Israeli soldiers, either from 611 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:05,960 who've gotten out of their jeeps and assumed sniper position on 612 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:09,280 earth and mounds that surround the fence, or from remotely 613 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:13,120 controlled gun towers where the soldiers firing are nowhere near 614 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,199 Gaza. So what we used to do is 615 00:34:16,199 --> 00:34:18,840 accompany farmers. And now Israel at the time had, 616 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:23,120 I don't know exactly now, they first had imposed a, what they 617 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:25,880 called a buffer zone and no go zone on on the Gaza side of the 618 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,120 fence. It was initially 50 meters and 619 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,080 then they increased to 300 meters. 620 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,000 It would fluctuate, but basically at that time when I 621 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,679 was there, the maximum they said was 300 meters, but we were 622 00:34:36,679 --> 00:34:41,239 always accompanying farmers 45600 meters or more and we'd 623 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:42,800 still came under Israeli gunfire. 624 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:46,920 So even this, this, this pretext like, OK, 300 meters is 625 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,560 illegitimately imposed by the Israeli side. 626 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:53,800 There's 300 meters you can't go to. 627 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:58,160 But if you're 45600 meters, why is Israel firing or Israeli 628 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:01,720 soldiers firing at unarmed Palestinian farmers, including 629 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,240 elderly men and women, including children? 630 00:35:04,240 --> 00:35:06,400 Entire families, you know, would be on their land and they'd come 631 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,120 under Israeli fire. So that's something we did for 632 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,120 over the course of the three years I was there, I accompanied 633 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:13,680 farmers. And Eva? 634 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:19,360 Eva, can I ask you here, you you're experiencing this, you're 635 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,440 amongst it. Were were you actually reporting 636 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:26,160 on this as well at this stage? I was writing about it. 637 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:30,640 I I wasn't on on TV reporting because I, you know, I started 638 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:32,320 as an activist. When I was in the West Bank, I 639 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:34,360 was blogging. I didn't even use my real name 640 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:36,800 because who was I? I had a A blog. 641 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:41,040 I I OPT 2007. When I went to Gaza, I started 642 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,120 my current blog called In Gaza, but again, nobody knew who I 643 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,160 was, so I was blogging. I was sharing as much as I 644 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,880 could. I didn't actually start writing 645 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:54,760 for publications until, I don't know, maybe 2009 for rabble 646 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,760 Canadian publication. I wrote obviously reports for 647 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:03,120 the ISMI, started writing for Inter Press Services, So I did 648 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:05,000 report a lot for Inter Press Services. 649 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:09,840 This is 2009 or 10 on Israeli's policies in the buffer zone, the 650 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,520 border areas. So I was reporting on that, and 651 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:14,600 actually this might be of interest to you, but there was 652 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,920 on many occasions, Brian, when I was with Palestinian farmers, we 653 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:21,800 were under intense Israeli fire. And you know, they would say 654 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,600 these were warning shots. Warning shots, my understanding, 655 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:26,920 would be fired in the air. They were firing at our bodies. 656 00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,480 OK, they could have killed us if they wanted to, but they're 657 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:31,920 trying to intimidate us and frighten us from accompanying 658 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:35,000 the farmers. They shot around me and hit a 659 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,200 Palestinian farmer in his leg. So they they can definitely 660 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:39,720 shoot. And they three weeks prior to 661 00:36:39,720 --> 00:36:42,240 that they shot his cousin in the neck and killed him. 662 00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:46,880 And this was from southern southeastern Gaza, extremely 663 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,560 poor, poor family. These two men were working as 664 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,320 paid laborers, earning a pittance for their extended 665 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,960 family. So this this farmer that lived 666 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,400 but he was, you know shot in the leg. 667 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:02,920 The What we learned is OK, you can't stand too far ahead of the 668 00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:04,640 farmers because they'll just shoot around you. 669 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:09,680 But on many occasions we had bullets whizzing past our head 670 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:13,840 or puffs of dust rising near us from the impact of the bullet 671 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:17,080 nearby. On one occasion, the activists 672 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,760 from the media office had contacted our respective 673 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:23,440 embassies and somebody from the Canadian embassy in Tel Aviv 674 00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:27,120 called my mobile. I had an old Nokia back then and 675 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,760 they said, hey, we understand you're under fire, blah, blah, 676 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:31,520 blah. And when they realized it wasn't 677 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:33,600 from Palestinians, their tone changed. 678 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,440 Because I guess initially they thought Palestinians were firing 679 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:38,600 on us. And because they'd asked a 680 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:40,200 number of questions like, you know, where are you? 681 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,080 I'm like, well, I'm we're on farmland. 682 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:43,400 You know, what's what's near you? 683 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:46,480 I said, well, half demolished houses from Israeli destruction. 684 00:37:47,240 --> 00:37:50,040 And then when she, this woman I was speaking with from the 685 00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:54,200 Canadian embassy realized that when I said it's Israeli 686 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:56,120 soldiers firing at us, she said, well, how do you know it's 687 00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,200 Israeli soldiers? I said because I saw them get 688 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,680 out of their Jeep as they always do, and start firing. 689 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:03,000 This isn't, this is common. And she said, well, we can't 690 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,440 help you. And some minutes later somebody 691 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:10,360 who was her superior superior called me and he said we just 692 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,240 want you to understand, you know, Israel has security 693 00:38:13,240 --> 00:38:15,200 measures. And I said, hey, his name was 694 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:20,080 Jordy, you understand I'm an unarmed Canadian citizen with 695 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:22,760 other internationals who are unarmed, with Palestinian 696 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,200 civilians who are unarmed, and we're all being fired upon by 697 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,640 the Israeli military. He said, oh, there's nothing we 698 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:30,920 can do, you know? So like literally that blase 699 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:35,680 about it, which says a lot. I think we have. 700 00:38:35,720 --> 00:38:37,480 We have countless videos of this. 701 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:39,160 You know, I wasn't always filming. 702 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,320 Sometimes one of us would be holding the the bullhorn. 703 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:46,280 And for the sake of videos we would be saying on the bullhorn 704 00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:49,640 we are internationals with unarmed Palestinian farmers who 705 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:51,240 are simply working on their land. 706 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:53,120 There's no one here with a weapon. 707 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:55,760 There's no need to fire at us, you know, just to make the 708 00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:58,480 point, if it wasn't already clear enough that the Israeli 709 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:00,440 soldiers were firing on unarmed civilians. 710 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:04,040 So one of us would have the task of being in bullhorn, others 711 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:05,560 would photograph, others would video. 712 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:09,000 So sometimes I'm in the video, sometimes I'm doing the video. 713 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:11,960 But we have. We have so many instances of 714 00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:15,160 video footage showing the Israeli army firing on us on on 715 00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:18,680 Palestinian most important. So to ask the the question 716 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:21,760 you're you're starting to put out information and now you're 717 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:25,160 talking about videos. Did were you getting any 718 00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:28,440 reaction from anybody? Do you think you were getting at 719 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:30,760 that time? Were you getting any engagement 720 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:34,760 from people who were, who were learning from your reports and 721 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:36,600 who then who then approached you? 722 00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,120 What what about those MPs, for example? 723 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:42,600 Were you able to make any contacts with them? 724 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:46,760 I I honestly, I I didn't follow up with them. 725 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,320 I guess, you know, maybe strategically that wasn't a a 726 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,080 great idea. But my focus was on, because 727 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,920 there was so much happening, not only the farmers and fishers. 728 00:39:54,920 --> 00:40:00,200 But bear in mind, November 2008 was a month and some weeks right 729 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:04,400 before Israel started its 2008, 2009 war on Gaza, what they 730 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,640 called cast LED. During which time we rode in the 731 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:12,680 ambulances of the Palestinian Red Crescent and I was I was in 732 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:15,960 northern Gaza. I was in Beitanoon, Beit Lahia, 733 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:18,840 Jabalia, which is in the news these days, you know, sometimes 734 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:22,880 in Gaza City they let the power was cut to the only places. 735 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:26,520 We had electricity and Internet was one of the standing media 736 00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,680 buildings. My time was divided between 737 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:31,600 going with the medics. And the reason we went with the 738 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,400 medics was because we knew Israel historically would attack 739 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:38,000 Palestinian ambulances and kill or maim medics. 740 00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:43,800 So we were going there effectively to act as deterrence 741 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,120 if possible. Like we made a press conference 742 00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:48,000 and we said we're going to be riding in the ambulances. 743 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:49,960 If you kill the medics, you could potentially kill an 744 00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,360 international, which I'm, I don't think my life is worth 745 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:56,320 more than a Palestinian. But I know that in terms of 746 00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:00,120 media, we we knew that international being injured 747 00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:03,720 would have more media interest than unfortunately I don't like 748 00:41:03,720 --> 00:41:04,800 it. That's the reality that a 749 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:09,440 Palestinian being injured. And Eva did did you did you come 750 00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:14,640 into contact with any any sort of proper major media 751 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:20,040 journalists? Were were was CNN around or BBC 752 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,760 did were there? Were there any established media 753 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,640 outlets who were also reporting that you came across? 754 00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:30,120 Now, do you mean specifically during that three weeks of war? 755 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:34,360 Well, you can expand it a bit because this is one of the 756 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:37,680 things which I think our listeners will be interested in. 757 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:42,840 You are there as a as a a single woman, you're in a very 758 00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:47,920 dangerous and scary environment and you are there to learn and 759 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,360 ultimately report. Where were the mainstream 760 00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:55,200 journalists and and you know you can expand it over over time in 761 00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:58,680 the years ahead. When, when did you manage to see 762 00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:01,400 some of the mainstream people reporting? 763 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:05,560 In my time in Gaza, I didn't, so I was there from November 2008 764 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:09,120 to mid 2010 and then I left for a year. 765 00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:13,360 I came back in mid 2011 and was there off and on until March 766 00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:15,280 2013. No, that's now. 767 00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:16,760 I have to correct myself. I did. 768 00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:17,480 I did. See. 769 00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:20,000 Now I remember a Canadian, I think it was CTV. 770 00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,080 After the war I'd have to dig through some blog posts, but 771 00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:27,880 after the war I remember going to an eastern, eastern Gaza, 772 00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:33,520 east of Gaza City area where the Wafa rehabilitation hospital 773 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:35,240 was. And at that time, I remember I 774 00:42:35,240 --> 00:42:39,520 had a CTV crew is, I mean this is so far back, so sorry for 775 00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:42,840 forgetting that following me. And I was pointing out where 776 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,120 Israel had fired white phosphorus on this 777 00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:47,680 rehabilitation hospital which still had patients in it. 778 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:52,680 And I knew one of the patients, a young young boy, a teenager 779 00:42:52,720 --> 00:42:56,480 who had been injured in a previous Israeli war and who 780 00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:58,040 ultimately died many years later. 781 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:01,640 But I I don't remember much about the quality of their 782 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:03,680 interview. I was still very new to needy at 783 00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:05,760 that time, Brian. I was, I was blogging. 784 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:09,560 I was, I had only started writing for various for free, 785 00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:11,160 you know for various publications. 786 00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,120 My main interest was getting information out. 787 00:43:14,720 --> 00:43:18,680 So I don't remember, you know, the quality of of whatever CCTV 788 00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:22,120 did. I will also say in the in the in 789 00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:27,640 the December 2008, January 2009, three weeks of Israel's war in 790 00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:32,680 Gaza. I was contacted by CBC because 791 00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:37,200 at that time in in the weeks before that Israel had closed 792 00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:40,560 the Arabs crossing, which was the only crossing mainstream 793 00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:44,280 journalist would go through. And so I don't believe. 794 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:46,880 Now, I might be wrong, but I don't recall there being any 795 00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:49,560 mainstream journalist there during that war. 796 00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:53,080 There might have been one journalist, but I have no idea 797 00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:58,040 what outlet he was with. But it at any rate, the CBC did 798 00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:01,440 contact me. And I remember again being new 799 00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:05,040 to median, being like they said, you know, we're thinking about 800 00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:07,240 interviewing you next week. And I remember just being like, 801 00:44:07,240 --> 00:44:08,760 well, why next week? Why not right now? 802 00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:10,200 I'm ready to speak right now. You know what? 803 00:44:10,240 --> 00:44:12,040 I don't always have electricity and Internet. 804 00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:13,120 Why don't you want to speak to me? 805 00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:17,160 And the reason was they want to line up a Canadian in Israel so 806 00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:19,560 they could have a balanced report, which actually 807 00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:22,520 ultimately backfired on them. Because whenever I didn't know 808 00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:24,600 that, I didn't know until later. And my brother told me he'd 809 00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:26,800 listened to it. And then I understood. 810 00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:30,920 But basically I was reporting to them saying, you know, I'm 811 00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:34,280 riding with medics. We're one ambulance I was in, We 812 00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,240 came under Israeli sniper fire. A medic was shot in his leg. 813 00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:39,480 The 14th bullet hit the back of our ambulance. 814 00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:41,680 So we speed away. This is during cease-fire hours, 815 00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:44,000 when, you know, nobody should have been shot and medics should 816 00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:46,880 never be shot. I talked about a medic I had 817 00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:49,840 worked with one night, and the next day he went out on call and 818 00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:53,520 Israeli soldiers fired a dart bomb at his ambulance, and he 819 00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:55,640 was killed. So I was talking about that. 820 00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:59,320 I was talking about what we're seeing in Gaza now, although now 821 00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:02,880 is just so much worse than what I saw. 822 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:07,680 And what I saw was horrible, but so I was, I had just endless 823 00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:10,560 things to say. In the CBC interview I was 824 00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:13,200 talking about how there was no safe place that there's no bomb 825 00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:17,640 shelters hospitals were being targeted, the Kurds hospital. 826 00:45:18,240 --> 00:45:20,920 Now I don't remember when the CBC interview was so this might 827 00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:23,560 have happened after that interview but the point being I 828 00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:26,640 was saying a lot of horrific things and apparently the 829 00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:30,720 Canadian volunteering on Israeli base was just talking about you 830 00:45:30,720 --> 00:45:32,840 know is having a great time. People are really nice they're 831 00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:36,560 like different dynamic. I I was going to mention the 832 00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:39,120 Kurds hospital. So during that three weeks of 833 00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:42,400 war Israel did similar to what it's doing now, except now of 834 00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:47,280 course it's worse. It had the land invasion had 835 00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:49,840 occurred and the Israeli soldiers had invaded the Tel 836 00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:53,280 Hawa region of Gaza City where the Kurds hospital is located 837 00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:57,000 and they had shelled it numerous times. 838 00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:00,280 And I believe if I recall correctly at least one shell had 839 00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:03,560 white phosphorus and I have other experience with white 840 00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:06,600 phosphorus. But so the medics were going 841 00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:09,440 from Shifa hospital, which is the main hospital, to Kurds 842 00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:14,080 hospital to evacuate patients. And we were under risk of 843 00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:17,240 Israeli sniper fire because the soldiers were firing on anybody 844 00:46:17,240 --> 00:46:19,640 coming near. But nonetheless, these 845 00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:22,320 courageous medics were going to do what they could to evacuate 846 00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:25,960 patients and take them to Shifa, which is already overflowing 847 00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:28,760 with a similar situation, just no space for people. 848 00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:30,760 But it was all they could do. They could just take people and 849 00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:34,960 put them on the floor. So anyway, back to your 850 00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:39,960 question, CBC. That was the only mainstream 851 00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:43,160 media that talked to me. RT actually interviewed me 852 00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:45,440 during that war. I had no affiliation with RT. 853 00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:48,520 I'd never written for them. Somehow they became aware of me. 854 00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:51,240 I did an interview with them and shortly after that interview, 855 00:46:51,240 --> 00:46:55,320 the Israeli, I think it was tank fire or helicopter fire shelled 856 00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:57,240 the building I was in seven times. 857 00:46:57,240 --> 00:46:59,720 So we ran down 10 or 12 flights of stairs. 858 00:46:59,720 --> 00:47:02,840 Thankfully nobody was injured, but that was, you know, these 859 00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:06,840 are some of my first experiences of like just crazy. 860 00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:10,920 When I was saying to the CBCI don't think I had, I I don't 861 00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:13,720 think I was together. I think I sounded pretty crazed 862 00:47:13,720 --> 00:47:15,560 because it was. I'd never experienced anything 863 00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:19,080 like that before. Eva, I'm fascinated by by what 864 00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:21,360 you're telling me. You have so much detail and of 865 00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:23,400 course these are all your personal memories. 866 00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:28,000 And already I'm I'm thinking, yes, all of the time, all those 867 00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:30,960 years ago when I was, what would I be doing? 868 00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:36,840 I'd be listening to the BBC or reading newspapers and and and 869 00:47:37,720 --> 00:47:40,440 obviously the information we were getting in the West. 870 00:47:40,720 --> 00:47:43,800 You used the term balanced. You said they wanted to do a 871 00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:47,880 balance report, and I smiled slightly because it seems to me 872 00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:52,480 that balance has a wonderful way of of suppressing what's the 873 00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:56,880 important truth and overlaying it with what is the comfortable 874 00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:59,920 truth. But maybe my opinion's not fair 875 00:47:59,920 --> 00:48:01,520 on that. But that's what came into my 876 00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:02,920 head. But yeah, I'm. 877 00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:06,040 I'm thinking, yes. So I was one of the people who 878 00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:10,280 was getting this, this sanitized news coming in as to what was 879 00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:12,160 what was really happening on the ground. 880 00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:16,800 Can we just move you on through your life a bit? 881 00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:20,760 When did you get, when did you go from reporting on Palestine 882 00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:23,000 to starting to get involved with Syria? 883 00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:25,480 Just just take us into that a bit. 884 00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:29,320 But, and I also want to move you on to Donbas. 885 00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:30,280 OK. Yeah, I'll try to. 886 00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:32,560 I'll try to summarise more quickly, so. 887 00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:36,600 No, don't apologise. Because, because the aim of the 888 00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:40,360 the aim of the game isn't it for the audience is, is to get out 889 00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:45,760 as much information as we can about your experiences and what 890 00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:49,320 what you what you saw and why you felt it was so important to 891 00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:54,240 put yourself at risk to report. Thank you. 892 00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:58,720 But tell us about Syria and and how then you got on to Donbass 893 00:48:58,720 --> 00:49:00,320 as. Well, OK, Well, I did just make 894 00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:03,120 a mention of RT. So I just want to say I think my 895 00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:07,360 first article op-ed for RT was in 2013 and was actually on 896 00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:11,440 Israel's harassment and abuse of Palestinian fissures. 897 00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:13,840 So that was the first time I ever contributed to a major 898 00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:17,640 platform because prior to that it had been like I said, 899 00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:22,720 dissident Voice, Rabble and some other, you know, independent 900 00:49:22,720 --> 00:49:26,880 media. And so I I left Gaza in March 901 00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:29,320 2013. I actually, I didn't mention 902 00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:31,880 this, but it is kind of, I've said it publicly, so I'm not, 903 00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:35,560 you know, nothing to hide. But when I went back in in in 904 00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:38,000 2011, I couldn't get in through Rafa. 905 00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:42,480 This is important actually, because one of the reasons it's 906 00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:46,680 so difficult for journals who want to report honestly to do so 907 00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:49,840 from Gaza is, like I said, to go in through errors is virtually 908 00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:52,840 impossible. Errors is the northern crossing 909 00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:55,520 controlled by Israel, and Rafa is the crossing ostensibly 910 00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:58,200 controlled by Egypt, but over which Israel has considerable 911 00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:01,760 influence. And so when I went back in to, I 912 00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:03,760 tried to go back to Gaza in mid 2011. 913 00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:06,760 I couldn't get in through Rafa, so I ended up going in through a 914 00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:11,000 tunnel and spending think two months there and leaving by 915 00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:15,120 tunnel and then later going back and finally being able to get in 916 00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:17,960 through Rafa. So just to to make the point, I 917 00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:20,920 think one reason, well not I think for sure one reason I 918 00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:26,160 haven't been back is that now last time I checked, getting to 919 00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:29,200 Rafa period is impossible. I know there's a delegation of 920 00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:32,880 Westerners trying to go from Cairo to Rafa with aid, and they 921 00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:36,680 as far as they didn't make it. And I I unfortunately already 922 00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:39,400 knew they wouldn't make it because it's just impossible to 923 00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:43,960 get there. So Gaza for now is off limits to 924 00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:47,640 people who want to go and support, and I would be there in 925 00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:50,200 a heartbeat if I could, but there's just literally no way 926 00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:55,440 for me to get there but in. So after I left in 2013, I went 927 00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:58,040 back to Canada. Now when things started in 928 00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:03,520 Syria, I remember talking with other activists and and people I 929 00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:06,640 knew and whose opinions I trusted and saying like, I knew 930 00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:08,720 nothing about Syria. And this is kind of goes back, 931 00:51:08,720 --> 00:51:10,080 Brian, to what I was saying at the beginning. 932 00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:14,520 You know, I was so naive about so many places, which was in a 933 00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:17,880 sense of blessing because I didn't have the propaganda bits 934 00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:19,720 in my head. I didn't automatically think, 935 00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:22,960 aha, this is what aligns with the propaganda I was told. 936 00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:26,440 I just didn't know it. So I didn't have any any ideas 937 00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:28,760 about the president of Syria or anything like that. 938 00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:33,520 And I saw the reports, you know, in in Gaza, the main channel is 939 00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:36,120 primarily Al Jazeera. And and fortunately, while they 940 00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:39,000 do good reporting on Palestine, on Syria, they were utterly 941 00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:43,360 complicit to have blood on their hands for putting forth the NATO 942 00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:48,360 propaganda on Syria and for so much misinformation and war 943 00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,640 propaganda that protracted the war on Syria. 944 00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:54,080 But you know, at the time, I wasn't aware of that. 945 00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:56,120 All I knew was I was asking questions. 946 00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:59,080 And early on, because I remember going back to my Facebook post 947 00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:04,040 and as early on as 2011, I was with, you know, sharing things 948 00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:07,000 like no war on Syria, no, no intervention in Syria. 949 00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:12,440 In 2012 I created an e-mail list, I think it was called No 950 00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:14,160 Syria Intervention. It's been a while. 951 00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:18,480 And then sometime the following year a number of other older 952 00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:21,800 activists myself formed the Syria Solidarity Movement, not 953 00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:26,360 to be confused with the UK one which was pro war, but ours. 954 00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:30,880 The main premises were we wanted to share accurate information, 955 00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:34,600 we were anti intervention, we were pro, you know, serious 956 00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:38,360 right to resolve the crisis itself, etcetera. 957 00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:43,760 But then I I wanted to to go to Syria for the same reasons I 958 00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:45,800 wanted to go to Palestine, to see for myself, to hear for 959 00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:48,120 myself. At that point I understood quite 960 00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:50,200 a bit of Arabic, having lived in Gaza for a while. 961 00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:55,760 And so in 2014 I went for my first time to Syria as part of a 962 00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:59,320 large peace delegation. And then, since I was already 963 00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:03,080 now you, as you I'm sure are aware, Canada, like many other 964 00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:07,880 Western nations, closed Syrian embassies in like 2011 or 2012. 965 00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:11,280 So if I wanted to apply for a journalist visa here in Canada, 966 00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:14,360 I'm not in Canada. In Canada I couldn't because 967 00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:16,560 there's no way to do so. And I'd actually inquired. 968 00:53:17,240 --> 00:53:19,440 So I I joined this peace delegation. 969 00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:22,200 And then after that I stayed in Lebanon, I went to the Syrian 970 00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:24,120 embassy there and I applied for a journalist visa. 971 00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:26,760 And other journalist told me, you're not going to get it, 972 00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:28,680 you're not going to get it. I said, well, you know what? 973 00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:30,160 I'm here. I might as well try because I 974 00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:32,720 can't do it in Canada. And I did get it actually. 975 00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:36,120 And again, I didn't have any sort of affiliations. 976 00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:38,160 Nobody was paying for me. I was doing it myself. 977 00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:42,360 I got a journalist fees and I went back to Syria, and this is 978 00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:47,600 back to Syria in June 2014. So my first visit was April 2014 979 00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:51,240 and I went to some pretty important places like Malula, 980 00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:55,600 which had been liberated one month prior, I believe it was. 981 00:53:55,720 --> 00:53:59,800 So the the destruction in that ancient Christian Aramaic 982 00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:02,040 speaking village was still very fresh. 983 00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:06,160 So I was able to document that and speak with people there. 984 00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:09,320 And I went to Homs. I went to old Homs which had 985 00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:13,400 also just been liberated 2 months prior, and spoke with 986 00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:16,120 the, you know, people in the old city of Homs which had been 987 00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:18,320 devastated and which at one point had been called the 988 00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:21,000 capital of the revolution. And I use revolution in 989 00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:23,240 quotation marks. Obviously I don't endorse that 990 00:54:23,240 --> 00:54:25,720 narrative. I spoke with people there who 991 00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:30,440 they said the same things I would later hear in Aleppo, in 992 00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:34,280 in Ghouta, in various areas of Syria that had been occupied by 993 00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:39,840 the various terrorist groups backed and and supported by the 994 00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:42,360 West. And these civilians I spoke of 995 00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:46,120 said, you know, they terrorized us, they stole from us. 996 00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:48,800 In Homs, I remember meeting an older brother and sister who 997 00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:51,760 lived together who they said we nearly starved to death because 998 00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:53,440 they came and they stole everything from us. 999 00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:58,880 I went to the church where a father, he was a Dutch I believe 1000 00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:04,120 Father Franz Vanderloot, he had been an honest observer of 1001 00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:09,120 events and he he, he wrote on his blog, I think or in an 1002 00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:11,240 interview. He said like from the beginning 1003 00:55:11,240 --> 00:55:14,080 I saw armed men amongst the the revolutionaries. 1004 00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:17,760 So he was very critical of what the West was portraying as an 1005 00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:22,160 unarmed revolution. And he was assassinated in, I 1006 00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:26,400 think it was in 2014, 2014, June 2014 when I was there, was 1007 00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:29,800 actually also just after the the presidential elections then. 1008 00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:33,240 And the interesting thing, Brian, is that during the actual 1009 00:55:33,240 --> 00:55:36,920 elections, I was in Lebanon waiting for a visa to be issued 1010 00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:38,680 or not be issued. I didn't know if I would get it. 1011 00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:41,880 And since I was in Lebanon and the elections were taking place 1012 00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:44,400 there, I was like, OK, well, I guess I'll just go to the 1013 00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:45,960 embassy and see what's happening. 1014 00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:48,720 So I got on a local bus in Beirut. 1015 00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:50,680 Yeah, I knew how to do this by that point. 1016 00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:52,760 The first time I'd taken a taxi was quite expensive. 1017 00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:54,560 And then I learned how to take local transport. 1018 00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:58,480 So I got on a local bus, went as far as I could, got talking with 1019 00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:00,960 Syrians along the way. They were all super happy to be 1020 00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:02,440 going to the embassy. They had their flags. 1021 00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:03,680 They're chanting, they're singing. 1022 00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:07,320 There's so much traffic on that road that the road was clogged 1023 00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:09,840 and we had to walk for three or 4 kilometers to reach the 1024 00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:11,440 embassy. And then it was like a festival, 1025 00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:15,440 like the atmosphere. So the reason I make this point 1026 00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:18,760 is that the Western narrative, just like they did with Donbass 1027 00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:22,720 in September 2022, during that referendum, they would say, oh, 1028 00:56:22,720 --> 00:56:25,880 this is illegal or they were forced to vote, OK, you can, you 1029 00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:27,520 can make these claims about Syria. 1030 00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:29,920 Although if you go to Syria and you spend any time there, you 1031 00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:33,840 will very quickly learn that people who went to vote did so 1032 00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:36,240 because they wanted to. And it was the same in Lebanon 1033 00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:39,080 because if they, if the propagandists make this claim 1034 00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:40,880 about Syria or they were forced to vote. 1035 00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:44,280 So why did millions of Syrians go to vote in Lebanon? 1036 00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:47,680 Why did the embassy have to stay open for a second unplanned date 1037 00:56:47,720 --> 00:56:51,280 till midnight, not 7:00 PM? You know, but it's not logical 1038 00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:55,280 if, if, if, and these are many of them are Syrian refugees and 1039 00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:57,680 many of them might have been undocumented, you know, Syrians 1040 00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:00,800 in in Lebanon who forced them to vote, then how did Bashar 1041 00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:02,680 al-Assad manage to force them over there to vote? 1042 00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:03,960 You know, it didn't make any sense. 1043 00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:06,160 So it was interesting to be there at that time. 1044 00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:10,760 I went back another 13 times to Syria in 2016. 1045 00:57:11,120 --> 00:57:15,360 I spent two months in the summer and two months in the winter in 1046 00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:21,680 Syria going to very interesting places, like going to Aleppo in 1047 00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:25,880 July and in August. In July I went to Aleppo for my 1048 00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:28,240 first time. Now what Western media wasn't 1049 00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:30,640 reporting, what my dear friend and colleague and your friend 1050 00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:33,120 and colleague Vanessa Bailey also reported. 1051 00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:37,000 We went together in August was that that city was being 1052 00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:40,520 bombarded by terrorists on a daily basis And no, you know, 1053 00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:41,720 Western media weren't reporting that. 1054 00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:46,480 They were only reporting the the sources, the unnamed sources 1055 00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:48,720 they had in eastern Aleppo, which was occupied by various 1056 00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:52,320 terrorist gangs. But, you know, by the end of the 1057 00:57:54,040 --> 00:58:00,920 2016, the chief of forensics had told me nearly, I think it was 1058 00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:04,360 nearly 10,000 or nearly 11,000 civilians alone had been killed 1059 00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:05,920 by terrorist bombings and snipings. 1060 00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:09,360 And that was completely unreported by Western media. 1061 00:58:09,920 --> 00:58:15,000 So in in 2016, I spent, like I said, four months in Syria. 1062 00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:21,800 And then every year I went back 3 * 2 times for a cumulative 15 1063 00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:24,440 times. So that was, you know, and and 1064 00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:29,520 along with Vanessa, who now lives there, we were going to 1065 00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:31,600 places that media was completely fabricating. 1066 00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:33,840 And in Syria, I did see Western journalists. 1067 00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:36,800 We saw, at least you say, of the BBCI saw her in 2014. 1068 00:58:37,160 --> 00:58:41,800 She was at the French Hospital in Damascus interviewing 1069 00:58:41,800 --> 00:58:44,720 children who had been at a school, the Menar Elementary 1070 00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:47,240 School, that had been shelled by terrorist mortars. 1071 00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:51,200 This is April 2014, and she was challenged by somebody. 1072 00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:52,560 Are you going to report honestly? 1073 00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:54,160 And she nodded her head and I filmed it. 1074 00:58:54,280 --> 00:58:56,360 So I was like, I know who this is. 1075 00:58:56,360 --> 00:58:57,640 I don't believe she's going to be honest. 1076 00:58:57,640 --> 00:59:00,320 And she wasn't really honest. She later wrote a report, 1077 00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:04,040 something titled Russian Roulet or something and she said, you 1078 00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:07,720 know, something to the effect of the regime blames the rebels. 1079 00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:09,360 But locals believe it's the regime. 1080 00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:11,280 And I don't use the word regime. I'm. 1081 00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:13,120 I'm quoting her or paraphrasing her. 1082 00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:17,200 And if you've spent any time on the ground in Damascus or other 1083 00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:20,440 areas being shelled, you know damn well where it's coming 1084 00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:22,120 from. We knew it was coming from 1085 00:59:22,120 --> 00:59:23,680 Eastern Ghouta. They knew they were shelled 1086 00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:25,040 every day. They knew where it was coming 1087 00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:27,640 from. This is utterly dishonest and 1088 00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:30,520 intentional on Lise Desai's part for the BBC. 1089 00:59:30,520 --> 00:59:33,560 Whether it's her or her editor at the BBC, it was completely 1090 00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:35,800 dishonest. If I can just come in there, 1091 00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:40,920 because what's immediately in my mind here is, is the BBS, sorry, 1092 00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:48,320 the BB, CS charity, BBC Media Action, which we the UK column 1093 00:59:48,640 --> 00:59:52,560 started to pay attention to. And what did we discover? 1094 00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:55,560 We discovered that this, it calls itself a charity, but 1095 00:59:55,560 --> 00:59:58,720 that's ridiculous because The thing is completely politically 1096 00:59:58,720 --> 01:00:03,120 active. But BBC Media Action was 1097 01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:06,600 boasting via a lady. If I remember correctly, she was 1098 01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:11,040 called Julia Harkin, she was one of their effectively project 1099 01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:15,160 managers in Syria and she's on. Public record was saying, well, 1100 01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:19,920 we worked with people, we we sought out and we worked with 1101 01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:24,520 people who were against the regime in order to assist 1102 01:00:24,600 --> 01:00:27,000 change. So what? 1103 01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:30,680 What this was was a declaration that the BBC wasn't just 1104 01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:34,040 reporting remotely and impartially on what was 1105 01:00:34,040 --> 01:00:37,760 happening under the surface, They were actually involved in 1106 01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:41,160 trying to help the overthrow of the Syrian government. 1107 01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:45,000 Yeah, I mean that that's absolutely what they and Allied 1108 01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:50,040 Media were doing. Channel 4, for example, Krishna 1109 01:00:50,040 --> 01:00:53,440 and Guru Murthy appeared various times in Syria. 1110 01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:56,480 I actually was in an elevator with him. 1111 01:00:56,480 --> 01:01:00,120 I just didn't know who he was at the time, but he would, he would 1112 01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:01,880 do the same thing. You know, he would totally 1113 01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:05,960 whitewash the the terrorist factions and actually Syrian MP, 1114 01:01:05,960 --> 01:01:10,520 well he used to be MP and and businessman Farah Shahabi called 1115 01:01:10,520 --> 01:01:13,080 him out after after Aleppo was liberated. 1116 01:01:13,160 --> 01:01:16,360 Because, you know, these type of propagandists were saying things 1117 01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:21,880 like, oh, you know, now that the, that Aleppo has fallen, as 1118 01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:25,840 they described the liberation of Aleppo from Al Qaeda and ISIS 1119 01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:29,480 and other terrorists, the Western media would say Aleppo 1120 01:01:29,480 --> 01:01:32,120 had fallen. And they'd say, you know, all 1121 01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:34,720 the civilians have left the city, which was the opposite of 1122 01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:36,920 truth actually, people were coming back to Aleppo. 1123 01:01:36,920 --> 01:01:40,240 And there's a funny clip of Farah Shahabi saying this to 1124 01:01:40,240 --> 01:01:42,920 Krishnan Guru Murthy, who's trying to get some sound bite 1125 01:01:42,920 --> 01:01:45,480 from Farah Shahabi. And you could tell by the body 1126 01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:49,040 language from Guru Murthy that he knew he was lying and he he 1127 01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:52,200 hated being caught out in his lies and he just wouldn't answer 1128 01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:56,560 the question of Farah Shahabi. He just said let's not get into 1129 01:01:56,560 --> 01:01:57,880 history. It wasn't history. 1130 01:01:57,880 --> 01:01:59,480 It was literally a couple of months prior. 1131 01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:03,760 And the and the the this, this is all the nuances that most 1132 01:02:03,760 --> 01:02:10,720 people, most people in the UKUSUSA, the West, simply don't 1133 01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:14,480 appreciate. The extent to which their, you 1134 01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:18,800 know, their belief that they have free media in the BBC or 1135 01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:24,760 wherever, whatever it's going to be, Fox or CNN, it doesn't 1136 01:02:24,760 --> 01:02:29,360 really exist because there's immense spin put on things if 1137 01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:32,640 it's not outright propaganda. I mean this, this has been the 1138 01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:36,680 big shock for me in my life, to discover that the country that 1139 01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:41,440 that I serve for 21 years in the military was was not, was not 1140 01:02:41,440 --> 01:02:44,920 what I thought it was. And as I've dug deeper, one of 1141 01:02:44,920 --> 01:02:48,400 the things that that becomes more and more apparent is the 1142 01:02:48,400 --> 01:02:51,640 extent to which our media is propaganda. 1143 01:02:51,920 --> 01:02:54,960 You know, there are, there are so many examples from Syria 1144 01:02:54,960 --> 01:02:56,800 alone. Like again if we look at Aleppo 1145 01:02:57,400 --> 01:03:02,640 in 2016, throughout 2016 there were so many lies told in course 1146 01:03:02,640 --> 01:03:06,240 by Western media, you know, last pediatrician in Aleppo, last 1147 01:03:06,240 --> 01:03:08,760 doctor in Aleppo. That was actually my first trip 1148 01:03:08,760 --> 01:03:12,960 to Aleppo in July 2016. That was my mission, My personal 1149 01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:15,200 mission was to go and talk to doctors there. 1150 01:03:15,200 --> 01:03:17,680 So I went to the Aleppo Medical Society and found there was over 1151 01:03:17,680 --> 01:03:21,080 4000 doctors and an 800 specialists working actively 1152 01:03:21,080 --> 01:03:24,560 working in the city. You know, so it's just like the 1153 01:03:24,560 --> 01:03:27,200 media were telling this talking point because they wanted to 1154 01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:31,360 generate a a dramatic headline. They were referring anything any 1155 01:03:31,360 --> 01:03:34,920 of their coverage on Aleppo was referring exclusively to areas 1156 01:03:34,920 --> 01:03:36,800 occupied by these terrorist factions. 1157 01:03:37,200 --> 01:03:40,520 And you know, they they relied on these anonymous sources, 1158 01:03:40,520 --> 01:03:44,880 always anonymous sources. Or if they had, if they had a a 1159 01:03:44,880 --> 01:03:47,400 spokesperson, a media activist, they would often call them. 1160 01:03:47,720 --> 01:03:50,720 It didn't take much, Brian, to look at their Facebook presence 1161 01:03:50,720 --> 01:03:54,240 and and very quickly discern where their allegiances were. 1162 01:03:54,240 --> 01:03:58,400 ISIS, Al Qaeda, they had photos bragging about it, you know with 1163 01:03:58,400 --> 01:04:01,560 the different Insignia of these terrorist groups or with there 1164 01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:04,200 was one particular case and I know you've probably spoken 1165 01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:07,560 about this with Vanessa, but there there were two boys. 1166 01:04:07,560 --> 01:04:13,400 There was a boy named Amran Daknish and in 2016 his name and 1167 01:04:13,400 --> 01:04:17,520 his face was shown around the world and he was the he was the 1168 01:04:17,680 --> 01:04:19,680 the cute little boy sitting in an ambulance. 1169 01:04:19,680 --> 01:04:24,080 He was known as ambulance boy. And that the and the White 1170 01:04:24,080 --> 01:04:27,800 Helmets played a critical role in in lining up the story and 1171 01:04:27,800 --> 01:04:30,960 framing it literally. And the story was that the 1172 01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:33,880 Russians had bombed his house and you know, he, he'd been 1173 01:04:33,880 --> 01:04:36,320 saved by the White Helmets. And, you know, he was the face 1174 01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:38,960 of Syrian suffering because he sat in an ambulance with the 1175 01:04:38,960 --> 01:04:41,840 trickle of blood on his forehead and he looked confused and and 1176 01:04:41,840 --> 01:04:44,720 sad. And, you know, CNN Christian 1177 01:04:44,720 --> 01:04:49,280 Amanpour did a thing with Sergey Lavrov, handing the photo of 1178 01:04:49,280 --> 01:04:53,280 Amran to him and asking if if Lavrov thought Amran was a 1179 01:04:53,280 --> 01:04:54,600 terrorist or something like that. 1180 01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:58,840 Another CNN reporter, when she was reading her script, was just 1181 01:04:58,840 --> 01:05:02,880 crying as she stammered on her script for Amran. 1182 01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:06,120 But literally some. I forget the timeline, but there 1183 01:05:06,120 --> 01:05:15,560 was another boy, a Palestinian boy who had been beheaded by a 1184 01:05:15,960 --> 01:05:21,200 terrorist some months prior. Abdullah Issa, his name, and he 1185 01:05:21,200 --> 01:05:23,560 got no media attention whatsoever. 1186 01:05:23,560 --> 01:05:28,440 And one of the worst kind of ironies, I guess, is that one of 1187 01:05:28,440 --> 01:05:31,120 the photographers who got all his attention for taking this 1188 01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:34,600 photo of Amran sitting in the ambulance was literally friends 1189 01:05:34,600 --> 01:05:38,920 with the same terrorist who held Abdullah Issa in a pickup truck 1190 01:05:38,920 --> 01:05:43,320 and savagely cut his head off. He has grinning selfies with 1191 01:05:43,320 --> 01:05:45,560 with these terrorists. And then he would later go on to 1192 01:05:45,560 --> 01:05:47,400 say he cried for children like Omran. 1193 01:05:47,400 --> 01:05:51,800 Now Omran actually wasn't injured in a Russian air strike. 1194 01:05:51,960 --> 01:05:53,640 He wasn't even gravely injured. I was. 1195 01:05:53,920 --> 01:05:59,120 I by fortune I was in Aleppo in 2017 when his family spoke out, 1196 01:05:59,120 --> 01:06:02,280 when his father spoke out. And so the second day, the next 1197 01:06:02,280 --> 01:06:05,400 day I went, I requested to go to the house and I spoke with the 1198 01:06:05,400 --> 01:06:07,760 father and I met Omran, healthy little boy. 1199 01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:10,520 And the father said he had refrained from speaking to media 1200 01:06:10,520 --> 01:06:12,080 precisely because he knew they were lying. 1201 01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:16,360 He said the the the terrorist affiliated media, the local 1202 01:06:16,360 --> 01:06:21,160 media, you know under that would be called by by western you know 1203 01:06:21,440 --> 01:06:27,440 source factor or Ned backed different organizations like 1204 01:06:27,440 --> 01:06:30,360 Aleppo Media Center. They would this type of media 1205 01:06:30,360 --> 01:06:32,440 which would be pushing the NATO narrative. 1206 01:06:32,880 --> 01:06:36,120 They had tried to intimidate Amran Daktish's father into 1207 01:06:36,120 --> 01:06:37,840 telling the story they wanted him to tell. 1208 01:06:38,240 --> 01:06:41,400 And the story he told me and and other media, it was that there 1209 01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:44,560 wasn't an air strike and that his son was snatched from him. 1210 01:06:44,600 --> 01:06:46,280 His son didn't have a serious injury. 1211 01:06:46,600 --> 01:06:50,720 There was some sort of blast and that his area was known to be 1212 01:06:50,720 --> 01:06:52,880 supportive of the Syrian government and Syrian Army and 1213 01:06:52,880 --> 01:06:55,560 they were routinely under fire from terrorist groups. 1214 01:06:55,560 --> 01:06:59,920 So you know that that was a story that you still find media 1215 01:06:59,920 --> 01:07:03,280 using this image of Amanda Beach because it's a powerful image, 1216 01:07:03,560 --> 01:07:05,320 but the story's distorted, you know. 1217 01:07:05,320 --> 01:07:09,680 And none of these major networks that sobbed for Amran Dakmeech 1218 01:07:09,680 --> 01:07:13,240 ever corrected themselves. And even the Independent on 1219 01:07:13,240 --> 01:07:17,400 Twitter X until some years ago, they still have had Amran's 1220 01:07:17,400 --> 01:07:20,800 photo as the cover photo. So it's just like now I can, if 1221 01:07:20,800 --> 01:07:24,040 I can just, I'll I'll say it quickly, but I saw in terms of B 1222 01:07:24,040 --> 01:07:26,920 to B somewhere having information, not reporting. 1223 01:07:26,920 --> 01:07:29,720 I saw this also in Dunbas. So I first went there in 1224 01:07:29,720 --> 01:07:33,080 September 2019, again of my own accord. 1225 01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:36,480 I had visited Russia for my first time. 1226 01:07:36,560 --> 01:07:39,640 I was interested to come here, and I also was very interested 1227 01:07:39,640 --> 01:07:42,120 in going to Crimea and going to Donbass, which I did. 1228 01:07:42,640 --> 01:07:46,440 All my everything I arranged myself, I paid for myself. 1229 01:07:46,440 --> 01:07:49,720 I went at my own risk, without any sort of body armor. 1230 01:07:49,720 --> 01:07:54,040 In fact, the only time I first had body armor was was in the 1231 01:07:54,040 --> 01:07:57,360 Donbass, and it was lent to me by a media office there. 1232 01:07:57,520 --> 01:07:59,760 At the media office there, who saw that I had nothing. 1233 01:07:59,760 --> 01:08:02,960 I've never had body armor before that, not in Syria, not in Gaza, 1234 01:08:03,960 --> 01:08:06,640 whatever had become normal to me not to have body armor. 1235 01:08:07,200 --> 01:08:09,920 And after Gaza, frankly it seemed like pointless anyway. 1236 01:08:09,920 --> 01:08:13,840 In in Dundas. I went there in 27 in 2019 and 1237 01:08:13,840 --> 01:08:17,000 spent a few weeks there. Went to hard hit areas near 1238 01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:19,520 Gorelufka that were being shelled on a daily basis. 1239 01:08:19,720 --> 01:08:23,160 Spoke with the the head of the village, this one village site, 1240 01:08:23,160 --> 01:08:26,880 Saber, who said the Ukrainian forces are destroying houses 1241 01:08:26,880 --> 01:08:30,200 house by house, street by St. in this particular village. 1242 01:08:31,080 --> 01:08:34,520 And you know, I just took some testimonies from people who are 1243 01:08:34,520 --> 01:08:37,359 being affected by the Ukrainian shelling and then I wasn't able 1244 01:08:37,359 --> 01:08:41,000 to go back there until March last year again for my second 1245 01:08:41,000 --> 01:08:43,319 time. That time I went with a Russian 1246 01:08:43,319 --> 01:08:47,240 Ministry of Defence delegation. It went for two days, One day in 1247 01:08:47,240 --> 01:08:50,840 the Donas People's Republic at the time, One day in the Lugansk 1248 01:08:50,840 --> 01:08:53,880 People's Republic. And there were there were Arabic 1249 01:08:53,880 --> 01:08:58,279 media, there was myself, there were a couple other Westerners 1250 01:08:58,399 --> 01:09:01,960 reporting on who had been to the done best before, or who wanted 1251 01:09:01,960 --> 01:09:04,840 to, and there are two mainstream French channels. 1252 01:09:04,840 --> 01:09:05,920 I don't remember their names now. 1253 01:09:05,920 --> 01:09:10,160 One I think was Teve One. Anyway, Vanessa could fill me in 1254 01:09:10,160 --> 01:09:12,279 on that and I I wrote about it so I could find it in my 1255 01:09:12,520 --> 01:09:14,359 article. But they were mainstream French 1256 01:09:14,359 --> 01:09:18,920 channels and so we we went to sites that were pivotal to 1257 01:09:18,920 --> 01:09:24,840 understanding that that at the time since 2022 we went. 1258 01:09:25,399 --> 01:09:28,040 So at the time it had been eight years of Ukraine's war on the 1259 01:09:28,040 --> 01:09:30,200 Donbass. So we went to sites and talked 1260 01:09:30,200 --> 01:09:34,479 with people that highlighted this and highlighted also places 1261 01:09:34,560 --> 01:09:39,120 like in Mariupol or Volna Baja. The destruction there had 1262 01:09:39,120 --> 01:09:42,240 occurred due to Ukrainian shelling, not exclusively, but 1263 01:09:42,240 --> 01:09:45,120 for example, the hospital in Volna Baha, which is in between 1264 01:09:45,120 --> 01:09:49,319 Donetsk and Mariupol, had been occupied by Ukrainian forces and 1265 01:09:49,319 --> 01:09:51,720 they'd mind the ICU before leaving. 1266 01:09:52,160 --> 01:09:54,840 And actually I would later go back to Volna Baha and and talk 1267 01:09:54,840 --> 01:09:57,960 with other staff there. And they said before any Russian 1268 01:09:57,960 --> 01:10:00,400 forces entered that town, Ukrainian forces were shelling 1269 01:10:00,400 --> 01:10:02,920 the hospital. That's an aside, but this 1270 01:10:02,920 --> 01:10:05,440 French, these two French channels, I followed up on the 1271 01:10:05,440 --> 01:10:08,400 reporting and they didn't report on any of what we saw. 1272 01:10:08,400 --> 01:10:11,440 They didn't report on, for example, we went to the site of 1273 01:10:12,320 --> 01:10:17,560 Ukrainian bombing 2 weeks prior, which killed with with a touch 1274 01:10:18,240 --> 01:10:21,880 missile with classroom munitions in it. 1275 01:10:21,920 --> 01:10:26,120 They had killed 21 civilians 2 weeks prior in the center of 1276 01:10:26,120 --> 01:10:28,440 Donetsk. We saw the impact point, we saw 1277 01:10:28,440 --> 01:10:30,520 the memorial and the photo of the civilians killed. 1278 01:10:30,520 --> 01:10:34,560 We talked to the head of the DPR, Pushelin, you know, and we 1279 01:10:34,560 --> 01:10:38,800 saw that. And we we talked with the head 1280 01:10:38,800 --> 01:10:42,480 of the LPR. And also now her name escapes 1281 01:10:42,480 --> 01:10:43,960 me. I'm sorry, but people who could 1282 01:10:43,960 --> 01:10:46,440 detail Ukraine's crimes against civilians there. 1283 01:10:46,960 --> 01:10:49,400 And these two French channels didn't include a word of it 1284 01:10:49,400 --> 01:10:51,320 because I looked at all the reports I could find from them 1285 01:10:51,320 --> 01:10:53,000 at that time. And after, the only thing they 1286 01:10:53,000 --> 01:10:56,880 basically did was put out very short clips saying this is what 1287 01:10:56,880 --> 01:11:00,280 Russia wants us to see, which was Russia's humanitarian 1288 01:11:00,280 --> 01:11:03,320 efforts, you know, giving out food and water to these villages 1289 01:11:03,320 --> 01:11:04,840 like that had just been liberated. 1290 01:11:05,240 --> 01:11:07,040 That's it. This is what Putin wants us to 1291 01:11:07,040 --> 01:11:10,520 see. They included like a few seconds 1292 01:11:10,760 --> 01:11:14,160 of the doctor from this town, the city of Ulna Baha speaking. 1293 01:11:14,680 --> 01:11:17,400 He had very clearly, he was the one that very clearly said 1294 01:11:17,680 --> 01:11:21,520 Ukrainian troops had occupied the hospital and mined the ICU. 1295 01:11:21,880 --> 01:11:24,560 But they included only a few seconds of him stammering and 1296 01:11:24,560 --> 01:11:26,560 sounding stupid. You know, that was cherry 1297 01:11:26,560 --> 01:11:28,120 picking, intentional cherry picking. 1298 01:11:28,480 --> 01:11:31,160 So that's that's one example. You know, they've been given 1299 01:11:31,160 --> 01:11:33,920 access, they've been given a tour around that everything's 1300 01:11:33,920 --> 01:11:36,520 been made so easy for them to talk to people. 1301 01:11:36,760 --> 01:11:41,400 And yet they only include this these two bets to to basically 1302 01:11:41,720 --> 01:11:45,360 whitewash Ukraine's crimes. Even am I right in saying that 1303 01:11:45,360 --> 01:11:49,160 one of one of the places that you went to, you you got there 1304 01:11:49,160 --> 01:11:52,720 soon after one of the attacks and there there was still bodies 1305 01:11:52,800 --> 01:11:54,320 on the street? Many times, yeah. 1306 01:11:54,600 --> 01:12:00,000 So in April of last year, I was back in Donbass, so that I 1307 01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:02,040 mentioned the the Ministry of Defence delegation. 1308 01:12:02,040 --> 01:12:05,320 That was for two days in March. And then I kept going back over 1309 01:12:05,320 --> 01:12:07,880 the course of last year into this year, and I would spend a 1310 01:12:07,880 --> 01:12:09,920 few weeks there. I would rent an apartment. 1311 01:12:09,920 --> 01:12:12,480 There was one time where I did stay in a hotel, but most of the 1312 01:12:12,480 --> 01:12:16,240 time I would rent a nondescript apartment and I would travel by 1313 01:12:16,240 --> 01:12:20,240 foot or hire a taxi. And so in April, another 1314 01:12:21,320 --> 01:12:26,480 activist journalist and I took a taxi to a western Donetsk 1315 01:12:26,640 --> 01:12:31,760 district where during midday it was Ukrainian forces had shelled 1316 01:12:31,760 --> 01:12:34,160 a busy market. And so we went there not knowing 1317 01:12:34,160 --> 01:12:36,320 what we would see. And in fact, there's still two 1318 01:12:36,320 --> 01:12:38,600 bodies lying in the market. Five people had been killed that 1319 01:12:38,600 --> 01:12:40,360 day. We spoke with somebody. 1320 01:12:40,360 --> 01:12:43,000 I now I forget his official position, but he was affiliated 1321 01:12:43,000 --> 01:12:45,720 with the market, like overseer of the market or something. 1322 01:12:45,720 --> 01:12:47,760 And he was like, yeah, they're always shelling this area. 1323 01:12:47,760 --> 01:12:50,720 It's a working class area. This market was a large 1324 01:12:50,720 --> 01:12:55,040 sprawling outdoor market and it would have been, especially in 1325 01:12:55,040 --> 01:12:56,640 the mid midday. It would have been filled with 1326 01:12:56,640 --> 01:12:59,000 people because it's a cheap place for people to get 1327 01:12:59,000 --> 01:13:02,760 everything they need. But because of the danger of 1328 01:13:02,760 --> 01:13:06,200 Ukraine striking as Israel does, you know, double strike, triple, 1329 01:13:06,240 --> 01:13:10,200 triple strike. They I guess the emergency 1330 01:13:10,200 --> 01:13:12,960 services had taken injured away, but they hadn't cleared all the 1331 01:13:12,960 --> 01:13:14,680 bodies away. So there's still two bodies 1332 01:13:14,680 --> 01:13:17,800 lying there a couple hours later when this man and I went. 1333 01:13:18,320 --> 01:13:20,680 But then throughout the course of last year, when I was 1334 01:13:20,680 --> 01:13:22,960 reporting from there, particularly in September, in 1335 01:13:22,960 --> 01:13:26,640 the space of five days, three different Ukrainian attacks on 1336 01:13:26,640 --> 01:13:28,800 the center of Donetsk killed 26 people. 1337 01:13:28,800 --> 01:13:31,560 And in each case, the bodies I went immediately after. 1338 01:13:31,560 --> 01:13:35,400 And on one day sixteen were killed. 1339 01:13:35,400 --> 01:13:40,040 And in one area 13 were killed. And honestly, I saw and and 1340 01:13:40,040 --> 01:13:42,760 smelt the bodies and the parts of the bodies, and I could not 1341 01:13:42,760 --> 01:13:45,240 tell how many were there because they were so mutilated and they 1342 01:13:45,240 --> 01:13:47,680 were just in one area. They were a pile of bodies, and 1343 01:13:47,680 --> 01:13:49,560 you couldn't tell they were disfigured. 1344 01:13:49,560 --> 01:13:51,440 You couldn't tell what part belonged to whom. 1345 01:13:52,200 --> 01:13:54,440 It was horrific, you know? And I did film it. 1346 01:13:54,720 --> 01:13:59,000 Not out of disrespect for the dead, but because precisely I 1347 01:13:59,000 --> 01:14:00,720 feel that people need to see this. 1348 01:14:01,280 --> 01:14:03,960 Yeah, this this is a very important point, isn't it? 1349 01:14:03,960 --> 01:14:07,280 And it's it's a fine balance because if people are going to 1350 01:14:07,280 --> 01:14:11,040 really understand what's happening, they need to, they 1351 01:14:11,040 --> 01:14:14,760 need the accurate on scene reports and they need the photos 1352 01:14:14,760 --> 01:14:15,800 or the footage. Yeah. 1353 01:14:15,800 --> 01:14:19,920 So three days later, I'm sorry, but three days later, these were 1354 01:14:19,920 --> 01:14:24,320 all central Donetsk. 3 days later the Ukrainian forces fired 1355 01:14:24,840 --> 01:14:28,400 right next to the Central Market in central Donetsk, where 1356 01:14:28,400 --> 01:14:31,000 there's also a tram line or trolley bus line. 1357 01:14:31,520 --> 01:14:34,560 And I was renting an apartment like a 5 minute walk away. 1358 01:14:34,560 --> 01:14:38,240 So I this time I had body armour and I and another journalist 1359 01:14:38,240 --> 01:14:40,360 walked there. He was also renting an apartment 1360 01:14:40,360 --> 01:14:43,000 nearby. We walked there and this is 1361 01:14:43,000 --> 01:14:44,680 within half an hour of the strike. 1362 01:14:44,920 --> 01:14:47,680 And so there were six. I saw five. 1363 01:14:47,760 --> 01:14:51,200 There was two bodies in the the minibus that got hit, I saw one. 1364 01:14:51,200 --> 01:14:54,720 I didn't see the driver's body. The bus was burnt out and there 1365 01:14:54,720 --> 01:14:57,520 were two bodies inside and there are four other bodies on the 1366 01:14:57,520 --> 01:15:00,720 ground. And I don't normally appear in 1367 01:15:00,720 --> 01:15:02,520 my videos. I don't feel I need to be in 1368 01:15:02,520 --> 01:15:04,080 them. I don't feel I'm the subject. 1369 01:15:04,080 --> 01:15:06,480 But that particular day I turn my phone around and I film 1370 01:15:06,480 --> 01:15:09,680 myself for like 30 seconds saying this is real, this is not 1371 01:15:09,680 --> 01:15:13,240 staged because you have, you have the trolls, you have the 1372 01:15:13,240 --> 01:15:16,000 shills that will say, oh, this isn't real footage, oh, their 1373 01:15:16,000 --> 01:15:18,320 hands moving. And I'm like, these are real 1374 01:15:18,320 --> 01:15:20,760 body parts. This woman running behind me, 1375 01:15:20,760 --> 01:15:24,000 traumatized and screaming is really traumatized because she's 1376 01:15:24,000 --> 01:15:26,680 just, I experienced something very traumatic. 1377 01:15:26,680 --> 01:15:29,320 This is happening all the time. That's just not staged. 1378 01:15:29,760 --> 01:15:33,040 And then I turn the camera back, you know, on the corpses I was 1379 01:15:33,040 --> 01:15:35,360 seeing, the the pieces of their bodies I was seeing. 1380 01:15:35,680 --> 01:15:38,760 I don't think people understand. And this is I I want to also 1381 01:15:38,760 --> 01:15:42,080 make one other point that for a period I shut down comments in 1382 01:15:42,080 --> 01:15:45,000 my Telegram channel because I got so sick of people calling 1383 01:15:45,000 --> 01:15:48,840 for death and people who, you know, call for, oh, Russia 1384 01:15:48,840 --> 01:15:51,440 should just flatten Kiev. I don't agree with that. 1385 01:15:51,920 --> 01:15:57,400 I I agree with what Russia is doing its military objectives in 1386 01:15:57,920 --> 01:16:01,000 demilitarizing Ukraine and putting an end to Ukraine's 1387 01:16:01,000 --> 01:16:04,440 bombing of Donbass and also a peace for Ukrainian civilians 1388 01:16:04,440 --> 01:16:07,360 under the the Kiev regime. But I don't agree with these 1389 01:16:07,360 --> 01:16:09,120 calls. You should just bomb Kiev. 1390 01:16:09,120 --> 01:16:11,000 You should bomb Tel Aviv. I don't agree with that. 1391 01:16:11,240 --> 01:16:13,160 I don't agree with slaughtering civilians. 1392 01:16:13,400 --> 01:16:16,160 And I think that people who say this, they're living as if 1393 01:16:16,160 --> 01:16:19,120 they're in a video game world. They've never smelt death. 1394 01:16:19,160 --> 01:16:22,520 Important point, and I'm so pleased that you've brought it 1395 01:16:22,520 --> 01:16:29,160 up because yes, there are these people and they they seem to get 1396 01:16:29,160 --> 01:16:32,320 a particular thrill out of calling for more violence, the 1397 01:16:32,320 --> 01:16:35,480 violence that you and others are trying to report in order to get 1398 01:16:35,480 --> 01:16:38,560 it stopped. But it takes many forms. 1399 01:16:38,560 --> 01:16:42,800 I look at some of the channels and people are putting good 1400 01:16:42,800 --> 01:16:45,320 information out on social media channels. 1401 01:16:45,320 --> 01:16:50,720 One particular one, regular updates which come in every 1402 01:16:50,720 --> 01:16:54,240 hour, multiple reports, and usually they're very accurate. 1403 01:16:54,680 --> 01:16:58,640 But something I find very distasteful is that quite often 1404 01:16:58,640 --> 01:17:04,000 if there is a picture of combat where anti tank weapon is 1405 01:17:04,000 --> 01:17:08,960 exploding or a bomb is going off, that little video clip has 1406 01:17:09,080 --> 01:17:12,920 been put to usually heavy metal rock music. 1407 01:17:13,560 --> 01:17:17,560 And I find this very, very distasteful because it isn't a 1408 01:17:17,560 --> 01:17:21,680 video game. Whenever these weapons hit, 1409 01:17:22,800 --> 01:17:26,120 somebody is dying and others are being injured. 1410 01:17:26,160 --> 01:17:32,160 And to put it to music of that form is I think just well, I 1411 01:17:32,200 --> 01:17:36,640 find it difficult to describe. So I completely understand what 1412 01:17:36,640 --> 01:17:39,200 you're talking about. You're putting your life at risk 1413 01:17:39,200 --> 01:17:41,080 in order to get the real truth out. 1414 01:17:41,680 --> 01:17:45,080 And other people sitting in their warm, comfortable rooms 1415 01:17:45,440 --> 01:17:51,120 make it into a sort of, yeah, a a sort of quasi video game. 1416 01:17:51,520 --> 01:17:55,520 It's bad. I think it's also disrespectful. 1417 01:17:55,520 --> 01:17:57,480 To the people if. If if I take for. 1418 01:17:57,480 --> 01:18:02,960 Example, the forces on the ground in Donbass, you know 1419 01:18:02,960 --> 01:18:05,960 they're, they're, they're living in horrific conditions, very 1420 01:18:05,960 --> 01:18:10,520 difficult conditions. And you know, they're I I've, I 1421 01:18:10,520 --> 01:18:12,480 haven't been on the front lines that much. 1422 01:18:12,480 --> 01:18:16,800 I've only been, I would say, one time last year I went to 1423 01:18:16,800 --> 01:18:21,440 interview one of the particular groups, not that I I can't 1424 01:18:21,440 --> 01:18:26,040 remember their Russian name, and another time in Gorluka, close 1425 01:18:26,040 --> 01:18:28,560 to the front line. So what my focus has always been 1426 01:18:28,560 --> 01:18:32,000 is has more been trying to convey the human side, the 1427 01:18:32,000 --> 01:18:34,960 suffering and also to combat war propaganda. 1428 01:18:35,240 --> 01:18:39,160 But this one time that I did go to meet Donbass forces on a 1429 01:18:39,160 --> 01:18:42,200 frontline outside of Donetsk, I wanted to. 1430 01:18:43,480 --> 01:18:45,600 I wanted to hear their perspective. 1431 01:18:46,000 --> 01:18:48,840 And one of the things I asked them because the way the Western 1432 01:18:48,840 --> 01:18:51,560 media depicts everything to do with Russia, I asked them, do 1433 01:18:51,560 --> 01:18:54,240 you hate Ukrainians? And they're like, no, they're 1434 01:18:54,240 --> 01:18:55,400 our brothers. They're our brothers and 1435 01:18:55,400 --> 01:18:57,000 sisters. We, we don't want to kill 1436 01:18:57,000 --> 01:18:58,880 Ukrainians. We want this to stop. 1437 01:18:59,000 --> 01:19:01,680 But we're going to defend our land, you know, and that's just 1438 01:19:01,720 --> 01:19:04,720 a that I make that point because it kind of aligns with what 1439 01:19:04,720 --> 01:19:06,680 we're talking about. They're not saying, yeah, we 1440 01:19:06,680 --> 01:19:07,880 want to kill every last Ukrainian. 1441 01:19:07,880 --> 01:19:10,360 They're saying no, we wish they would lay down their weapons. 1442 01:19:10,360 --> 01:19:12,320 We could return to peace, you know. 1443 01:19:12,320 --> 01:19:14,600 And then you have these bombastic comments from people 1444 01:19:14,600 --> 01:19:18,280 who've never been anywhere near war or violent death like this. 1445 01:19:18,280 --> 01:19:22,520 You know, it's just, I don't know, it's just it it really is 1446 01:19:22,520 --> 01:19:25,720 a disgusting part of our our. I don't know if it's exclusively 1447 01:19:25,720 --> 01:19:29,040 Western culture, but it's a disgusting, disgusting part of 1448 01:19:30,800 --> 01:19:33,720 the this sort of culture. That celebrates death. 1449 01:19:34,320 --> 01:19:39,720 Yes, and Eva you you were. Put on the Ukrainian hit list as 1450 01:19:39,720 --> 01:19:42,880 a result of your reporting from Donbass. 1451 01:19:42,960 --> 01:19:46,400 Is that correct? Yeah, in 2019 after I went to. 1452 01:19:46,480 --> 01:19:48,960 Donbass and also to Crimea, I was put on there. 1453 01:19:49,080 --> 01:19:51,880 Now an interesting thing about that, I guess a couple of 1454 01:19:51,880 --> 01:19:57,000 points, June last year, I think this is completely, I don't for 1455 01:19:57,000 --> 01:19:59,640 a moment believe that I was a target, the target. 1456 01:19:59,640 --> 01:20:02,360 But in June, the hotel that I was staying in, I mentioned 1457 01:20:02,360 --> 01:20:05,800 earlier, I usually rent an apartment when I go to Donetsk. 1458 01:20:06,440 --> 01:20:09,640 But I was at one point staying in one of the main hotels 1459 01:20:09,640 --> 01:20:12,000 because I wanted to be near a journalist, because if something 1460 01:20:12,000 --> 01:20:14,400 was happening, I don't have a car and I figured I could get a 1461 01:20:14,400 --> 01:20:15,960 ride with them, go with them, you know. 1462 01:20:15,960 --> 01:20:19,040 And also my Russian has improved quite a bit since then, but I 1463 01:20:19,040 --> 01:20:21,320 honestly didn't understand much Russian back then. 1464 01:20:21,320 --> 01:20:24,680 So that was another element I wanted to be near journalist who 1465 01:20:24,680 --> 01:20:27,280 could potentially translate, whether from Russian to English 1466 01:20:27,280 --> 01:20:31,000 or Arabic to English, because there are journalists that speak 1467 01:20:31,000 --> 01:20:32,560 Arabic there as well. And I I do. 1468 01:20:33,360 --> 01:20:37,520 Anyway, in the course of staying in that hotel, was it June or 1469 01:20:37,520 --> 01:20:38,800 August? I'm sorry, it was August. 1470 01:20:38,800 --> 01:20:43,800 I think it was August 4th. The Ukrainian forces bombed 1471 01:20:43,800 --> 01:20:46,680 about 200 meters away, and then they bombed directly next to the 1472 01:20:46,680 --> 01:20:50,200 H2 times, once like 50 meters away and once directly next to 1473 01:20:50,200 --> 01:20:55,040 the hotel. And the only point I make in 1474 01:20:55,040 --> 01:20:58,040 terms of like journalists being targeted is number one, it was 1475 01:20:58,040 --> 01:21:01,120 known to Ukrainian forces that that journalists stay there. 1476 01:21:02,320 --> 01:21:04,200 Also. The weapons they were using were 1477 01:21:04,200 --> 01:21:09,160 precision weapons, NATO weapons and like the the last shell was 1478 01:21:09,160 --> 01:21:11,560 the last of five. So they got incrementally 1479 01:21:11,560 --> 01:21:14,920 closer. But the other point was that 1480 01:21:15,680 --> 01:21:19,160 some days or a week or so prior to that. 1481 01:21:20,480 --> 01:21:23,400 Now what's her name? Totally blanking. 1482 01:21:24,440 --> 01:21:29,200 I had, I had gone to the site, the Yelanovka prison South of 1483 01:21:29,200 --> 01:21:32,520 Donetsk, which had been bombed as according to Russian 1484 01:21:32,520 --> 01:21:34,600 authorities and by all credible reports. 1485 01:21:34,600 --> 01:21:37,720 I do think this is the truth. It had been bombed by Ukrainian 1486 01:21:37,720 --> 01:21:44,800 forces and there had been Azov state not staying there. 1487 01:21:44,920 --> 01:21:49,600 Azov Azov that had been in Azov stall were being imprisoned 1488 01:21:49,600 --> 01:21:54,880 there and some of them had been, had started talking about, you 1489 01:21:54,880 --> 01:21:56,040 know, the crimes they had committed. 1490 01:21:56,640 --> 01:22:00,520 And soon after that Ukraine bombed this Yelinovka prison. 1491 01:22:01,000 --> 01:22:03,760 Louise Mensch, that's her name. And anyway, so I had tweeted 1492 01:22:03,760 --> 01:22:07,680 about it and then somebody, somebody asked me if I was there 1493 01:22:07,680 --> 01:22:10,200 and I I stupidly replied, yes, I mean I didn't need to because 1494 01:22:10,200 --> 01:22:13,160 I'd already tweeted about it. And then Louise Mensch tweeted 1495 01:22:13,160 --> 01:22:16,640 at Special Forces Ukraine, hear that The implication being, you 1496 01:22:16,640 --> 01:22:21,120 know, deal with her, kill me. And then it was again sometime 1497 01:22:21,120 --> 01:22:22,520 after that. Well, it would have only been 1498 01:22:22,520 --> 01:22:24,400 some days after that because that was the end of July. 1499 01:22:24,400 --> 01:22:27,840 And then the hotel bombing right next to the hotel occurred on 1500 01:22:27,840 --> 01:22:29,840 August 4th. So that that could have been 1501 01:22:29,840 --> 01:22:31,720 coincidental. I'm not going to say I was being 1502 01:22:31,720 --> 01:22:33,000 targeted. I don't believe that. 1503 01:22:33,000 --> 01:22:36,080 I think it's highly possible. Ukraine was definitely targeting 1504 01:22:36,080 --> 01:22:37,800 the hotel, knowing there was journalists in it because 1505 01:22:37,800 --> 01:22:41,520 they've also bombed other hotels in Donetsk and other areas 1506 01:22:41,520 --> 01:22:43,800 knowing full well journalists for staying there. 1507 01:22:44,280 --> 01:22:46,840 So there's that. But what other I think is really 1508 01:22:46,840 --> 01:22:55,120 interesting, Brian, is that last year, so before that incident in 1509 01:22:55,120 --> 01:22:59,800 June, I think it was, CBC contacted me about a week after 1510 01:22:59,800 --> 01:23:02,760 two independent journalists in Canada had interviewed me and 1511 01:23:02,760 --> 01:23:06,760 they were highlighting the Killis The Mired for its entry 1512 01:23:06,760 --> 01:23:10,160 on me. Then a week later, CBC Canadian 1513 01:23:10,160 --> 01:23:13,040 Broadcasting Corporation contacts me saying, you know, we 1514 01:23:13,040 --> 01:23:14,160 want to do an interview with you. 1515 01:23:14,160 --> 01:23:17,080 And by this point, I know when mainstream media send you an 1516 01:23:17,080 --> 01:23:20,120 e-mail it it's best not to respond or else I just mock 1517 01:23:20,120 --> 01:23:21,520 them. But I don't engage with them 1518 01:23:21,880 --> 01:23:23,720 because I know they won't be honest or fair. 1519 01:23:24,520 --> 01:23:26,280 And they didn't. They had they ended up 1520 01:23:26,600 --> 01:23:29,120 contriving this absolutely ridiculous smear on me, 1521 01:23:29,640 --> 01:23:32,320 including scary music, just to show how evil I am. 1522 01:23:32,920 --> 01:23:36,320 But what was really interesting is they chose to highlight my 1523 01:23:36,320 --> 01:23:41,160 participation in a panel in Moscow back in March on Ukraine 1524 01:23:41,160 --> 01:23:42,720 war crimes. And so they are basically trying 1525 01:23:42,720 --> 01:23:46,760 to depict me some fool under the, you know, the stupefied 1526 01:23:46,840 --> 01:23:51,440 gaze of a Russian researcher, Maxim Grigoriev, basically 1527 01:23:51,880 --> 01:23:53,320 trying to stay. You know, I didn't know what I 1528 01:23:53,320 --> 01:23:55,320 was talking about. I was just taking talking points 1529 01:23:55,320 --> 01:23:57,720 from him, even though I had started going to Donbass in 1530 01:23:57,720 --> 01:23:59,640 2019. But that's apparently not 1531 01:23:59,640 --> 01:24:01,000 information that was important to them. 1532 01:24:01,520 --> 01:24:04,800 But they said this is the interesting bit, They had been 1533 01:24:04,800 --> 01:24:08,200 contacted by the two Canadian journalists who interviewed me. 1534 01:24:08,320 --> 01:24:10,680 And these two Canadian journalists were really worried 1535 01:24:10,680 --> 01:24:11,720 about me. And they said we're going to 1536 01:24:11,720 --> 01:24:14,240 contact all major Canadian media and ask them to take up your 1537 01:24:14,240 --> 01:24:16,280 case instead of taking up my case. 1538 01:24:16,720 --> 01:24:21,120 CBC did a smear on me and they used information from the Kill 1539 01:24:21,120 --> 01:24:23,280 List entry on me to do the smear. 1540 01:24:23,680 --> 01:24:26,640 And the reason I know this is because they stated my 1541 01:24:26,640 --> 01:24:30,200 participation in the panel was April last year and so does the 1542 01:24:30,200 --> 01:24:32,920 kill List entry. But actually they included a 1543 01:24:32,920 --> 01:24:35,880 screenshot of my participation in that panel. 1544 01:24:36,360 --> 01:24:39,840 And I could easily find the Russian website where, you know, 1545 01:24:39,840 --> 01:24:42,120 the video was posted And it was March and I remember it being 1546 01:24:42,120 --> 01:24:44,120 March. So the only place that they 1547 01:24:44,120 --> 01:24:46,960 would have shown, seen that it was April was the kill list 1548 01:24:46,960 --> 01:24:50,040 entry on me. So I mean not only did they not 1549 01:24:50,040 --> 01:24:55,120 advocate for me CBC, but they smeared me using information 1550 01:24:55,120 --> 01:24:59,680 from a kill list entry on me. And as I've said before, I feel 1551 01:24:59,680 --> 01:25:02,520 at this point, you know it, it could be very risky to go back 1552 01:25:02,520 --> 01:25:07,840 to Canada because the national media has has basically flagged 1553 01:25:07,840 --> 01:25:10,960 my name to Ukrainian nationalist, of which there are 1554 01:25:10,960 --> 01:25:14,280 many in Canada. And I don't believe I would be 1555 01:25:14,280 --> 01:25:15,840 safe in Canada. I don't believe I would be 1556 01:25:15,840 --> 01:25:18,920 protected by my government, which openly supports Nazis in 1557 01:25:18,920 --> 01:25:21,240 Ukraine. Yeah, Eva, this is, this is. 1558 01:25:23,120 --> 01:25:24,760 We're really. We're really. 1559 01:25:24,760 --> 01:25:27,800 Getting into things. Now and I've got, I've got to 1560 01:25:27,800 --> 01:25:31,560 say to you very gently I think we we're going to have to we're 1561 01:25:32,160 --> 01:25:35,920 going to have to bring this particular interview to close in 1562 01:25:35,960 --> 01:25:38,520 a minute. But but I if if if you're 1563 01:25:38,520 --> 01:25:42,440 agreeable, I would love to do more with you. 1564 01:25:43,840 --> 01:25:47,840 But yes, we're now into some some really. 1565 01:25:49,160 --> 01:25:52,080 It's amazing stuff, isn't it? Because we're now. 1566 01:25:52,080 --> 01:25:56,200 Starting to see what the media of the Western world really is 1567 01:25:56,200 --> 01:25:59,600 and the idea that it's it's independent and fair and 1568 01:25:59,600 --> 01:26:04,480 unbiased is is just ridiculous. It's it's that's not a 1569 01:26:04,480 --> 01:26:08,600 sustainable position anymore And maybe there's a difference, 1570 01:26:09,400 --> 01:26:12,360 slight difference between some of the media outlets, whether 1571 01:26:12,560 --> 01:26:18,240 CBC is better than the BBC, who knows. 1572 01:26:18,240 --> 01:26:22,560 But what we do know is that they are all working to very tightly 1573 01:26:22,560 --> 01:26:26,560 controlled government agendas. There's no question of this. 1574 01:26:27,040 --> 01:26:31,400 And yes, in here in UK we are seeing the BBC. 1575 01:26:31,600 --> 01:26:34,880 We can take a young lady called Mariana Spring as a prime 1576 01:26:34,880 --> 01:26:40,640 example, targeting people who were daring to speak out. 1577 01:26:40,640 --> 01:26:44,840 So I'll mention The Light newspaper as a team of people 1578 01:26:44,840 --> 01:26:50,400 that have been publishing expose articles and highlighting facts 1579 01:26:50,400 --> 01:26:54,720 and producing government reports and and drawing people's 1580 01:26:54,720 --> 01:26:57,600 attention to it. And what is their reward? 1581 01:26:58,600 --> 01:27:02,720 A vicious smear campaign by Mariana Spring from the BBC. 1582 01:27:03,240 --> 01:27:07,720 So this would be a topic that we could really focus in on. 1583 01:27:07,960 --> 01:27:13,280 And and I'm sure that I'm sure we would be able to come out 1584 01:27:13,280 --> 01:27:15,680 with a lot of information, which I think people in the West 1585 01:27:15,680 --> 01:27:22,120 should know, but just very gently, because I think on this 1586 01:27:22,120 --> 01:27:26,640 one we probably need to come to a close a little bit. 1587 01:27:27,720 --> 01:27:30,760 Let's come back onto the theme, Gutsy women. 1588 01:27:30,800 --> 01:27:35,440 The more you've told me, Eva, the more obvious it is to me 1589 01:27:35,440 --> 01:27:37,880 that you are indeed a very gutsy woman. 1590 01:27:38,240 --> 01:27:42,640 You've you've, you know, been in serious positions in West Bank 1591 01:27:42,640 --> 01:27:46,480 and Gaza, and that hasn't deterred you. 1592 01:27:46,480 --> 01:27:52,240 You've gone, you've gone on into other dangerous areas in inside 1593 01:27:52,240 --> 01:27:58,640 Syria, and then you've moved on to Donbass and paid a price for 1594 01:27:58,640 --> 01:28:01,400 that. Because not only have you been 1595 01:28:01,400 --> 01:28:04,280 close to the frontline and the live shelling, but then 1596 01:28:04,280 --> 01:28:08,160 ultimately you've been attacked, as you've just said by the by 1597 01:28:08,160 --> 01:28:11,320 the press. You're a gutsy woman, There's no 1598 01:28:11,400 --> 01:28:14,480 question about it. So I I have, I've got two 1599 01:28:14,480 --> 01:28:18,200 questions here. The first one is, what would you 1600 01:28:18,200 --> 01:28:23,560 say to other women who perhaps are now starting to see that the 1601 01:28:23,560 --> 01:28:26,080 world around them isn't quite as they thought? 1602 01:28:26,960 --> 01:28:31,280 Maybe they've already come into some form of of conflict with 1603 01:28:31,280 --> 01:28:34,120 authorities in whatever country they are. 1604 01:28:34,120 --> 01:28:38,800 For me, this is often in relation to the fact that women 1605 01:28:38,800 --> 01:28:42,880 and families, parents, have had children taken away from them. 1606 01:28:43,600 --> 01:28:48,080 But as a gutsy woman, what would you say to other women to get 1607 01:28:48,080 --> 01:28:53,840 them to stand up and be counted? It's, it's. 1608 01:28:53,840 --> 01:28:57,280 A hard question. Because what has primarily 1609 01:28:57,280 --> 01:29:01,960 motivated me is at first, you know, when I mentioned going to 1610 01:29:02,160 --> 01:29:04,360 Palestine because I wanted to see for myself. 1611 01:29:04,960 --> 01:29:09,480 And once you're there, whether Palestine, Syria, Donbass and 1612 01:29:09,480 --> 01:29:14,960 many other places, I have found that you experience, you get a 1613 01:29:14,960 --> 01:29:18,920 sense of the suffering they've endured, but also their immense 1614 01:29:18,920 --> 01:29:22,440 humanity. And it's it's I I think it's 1615 01:29:22,440 --> 01:29:26,320 very difficult when you've seen the kind of things that they're 1616 01:29:26,320 --> 01:29:29,400 enduring and yet they're they're still very loving, generous, 1617 01:29:29,400 --> 01:29:33,600 kind people. It makes it impossible for for 1618 01:29:33,600 --> 01:29:37,760 me, for Vanessa, for people like us to just resume a normal life. 1619 01:29:38,280 --> 01:29:42,360 So I guess what I want to say is my personal motivations have 1620 01:29:42,360 --> 01:29:47,360 been out of a desire to give voice to these people and to 1621 01:29:47,360 --> 01:29:49,760 counter the propaganda, which I've become more and more 1622 01:29:49,760 --> 01:29:53,280 acutely aware of. And that's been my my driving 1623 01:29:53,280 --> 01:29:57,280 force, a sense of injustice and doing what I can to combat that. 1624 01:29:57,280 --> 01:30:00,120 But I mean if you're, if you're talking about women who are in 1625 01:30:00,120 --> 01:30:03,360 positions where they are themselves being oppressed, I 1626 01:30:03,360 --> 01:30:06,240 think that's for me, it's difficult to give advice to 1627 01:30:06,240 --> 01:30:09,200 because I mean if you're depending on how you're being 1628 01:30:09,400 --> 01:30:12,560 oppressed or attacked, it could be dangerous to you. 1629 01:30:13,040 --> 01:30:18,480 I guess what I would say is in terms of when it comes to 1630 01:30:18,480 --> 01:30:21,360 worrying about what people say about you, if it's if it's 1631 01:30:21,360 --> 01:30:24,160 merely worrying about your, your, your reputation. 1632 01:30:24,760 --> 01:30:29,320 I when I was first smeared by media, I was kind of like what? 1633 01:30:29,320 --> 01:30:33,280 And it happened all at once. The whole a bunch of media 1634 01:30:33,280 --> 01:30:36,480 jumped all over me and said all these things about me. 1635 01:30:36,520 --> 01:30:40,360 So at first it was jarring, but it really doesn't matter because 1636 01:30:40,720 --> 01:30:44,400 I I believe, look, I'm not taking talking points from a 1637 01:30:44,400 --> 01:30:47,160 government or an intelligence agency agency. 1638 01:30:47,840 --> 01:30:51,320 I'm reporting what I see and what I hear, and I I believe in 1639 01:30:51,320 --> 01:30:53,280 what I do. Nobody's perfect. 1640 01:30:53,280 --> 01:30:56,520 I don't claim to have all the answers, but my point is I I 1641 01:30:56,520 --> 01:30:59,600 believe that if you're really doing something in all sincerity 1642 01:30:59,600 --> 01:31:03,120 that you believe in that if people are going to attack you 1643 01:31:03,240 --> 01:31:07,640 verbally or you know in in writing, yeah, can be 1644 01:31:07,640 --> 01:31:10,040 demoralizing. But my I guess my advice would 1645 01:31:10,040 --> 01:31:15,560 be stand with what you know to be true and you know it it it 1646 01:31:15,560 --> 01:31:17,320 takes time. Maybe it won't take time for 1647 01:31:17,320 --> 01:31:22,600 you, but the the whole intent with this name calling in 1648 01:31:22,600 --> 01:31:27,840 whatever capacity or the smears is to demoralize you is to make 1649 01:31:27,840 --> 01:31:29,880 you not want to speak out or stand up. 1650 01:31:29,880 --> 01:31:33,000 So if you're in the position where you can safely do so 1651 01:31:33,000 --> 01:31:36,080 safely, meaning like I'm not talking about reporting from a 1652 01:31:36,080 --> 01:31:40,320 war zone necessarily, but like without, you know, if you're not 1653 01:31:40,320 --> 01:31:44,840 at risk of of, let's see, like violence in the home or 1654 01:31:44,840 --> 01:31:46,960 something. But if you're in a position 1655 01:31:46,960 --> 01:31:49,960 where you can speak out politically and do so, then I 1656 01:31:49,960 --> 01:31:53,600 wouldn't be swayed by, you know, fears of name calling or what 1657 01:31:53,600 --> 01:31:56,120 have you. Eva, thank. 1658 01:31:56,120 --> 01:32:00,120 Thank you for that. I think there's something else 1659 01:32:00,120 --> 01:32:03,160 there, which you clearly have, which would be of benefit to 1660 01:32:03,160 --> 01:32:06,280 other people, and that is to have the courage to do those 1661 01:32:06,280 --> 01:32:10,440 things, to have the courage to stand up and speak out, have the 1662 01:32:10,440 --> 01:32:14,000 courage not to back down when the pressure starts. 1663 01:32:14,720 --> 01:32:16,680 But I absolutely take your point. 1664 01:32:16,880 --> 01:32:21,040 The last question might be a tricky one, but I asked Vanessa 1665 01:32:21,200 --> 01:32:23,160 Bailey this question and that was that. 1666 01:32:23,160 --> 01:32:29,680 If, if, if I could put you in a room with Israeli women, with 1667 01:32:29,680 --> 01:32:34,280 Israeli mothers, what would you say to them? 1668 01:32:34,360 --> 01:32:38,120 After all your experience. Of what's gone on in Palestine 1669 01:32:38,120 --> 01:32:47,120 and Gaza. I would say let's go together 1670 01:32:47,120 --> 01:32:48,880 to. Gaza, let's go together to 1671 01:32:48,880 --> 01:32:51,240 Nablus. Let's spend a week living with a 1672 01:32:51,240 --> 01:32:53,840 Palestinian family. I will guarantee your safety. 1673 01:32:54,920 --> 01:32:59,400 Let them see what it's really like living under occupation or 1674 01:32:59,400 --> 01:33:01,440 in the case of Gaza, under bombings. 1675 01:33:01,520 --> 01:33:05,840 I mean, I don't want to speak on behalf. 1676 01:33:05,840 --> 01:33:08,560 I can't possibly speak on. Behalf of all Israelis, I will 1677 01:33:08,560 --> 01:33:12,760 speak on behalf of experience of I've had and also like I was 1678 01:33:12,760 --> 01:33:16,520 saying at the beginning, this former Israeli soldier and what 1679 01:33:16,520 --> 01:33:18,400 he had to say about his own indoctrination. 1680 01:33:18,400 --> 01:33:22,240 And I've heard this time and again from Israelis and or 1681 01:33:22,320 --> 01:33:26,560 reading it, you know, as I mentioned the Breaking the 1682 01:33:26,560 --> 01:33:31,720 Silence type groups. There is a heavy amount of 1683 01:33:31,720 --> 01:33:36,840 indoctrination which can be powerful to those hearing it. 1684 01:33:37,240 --> 01:33:42,840 And I think from my experiences, Israelis are not permitted to 1685 01:33:42,840 --> 01:33:46,320 see the Palestinian side. And I think that if they were 1686 01:33:46,320 --> 01:33:50,120 permitted to sit down with Palestinians to hear what 1687 01:33:50,120 --> 01:33:52,440 they're living under, I think there would be compassion. 1688 01:33:52,440 --> 01:33:59,040 I I I think that the absence of information leads to judgment or 1689 01:33:59,120 --> 01:34:01,240 or fear or hatred or what have you. 1690 01:34:01,600 --> 01:34:06,000 But if they were able to, to go for again let's say not even a 1691 01:34:06,000 --> 01:34:09,640 time of bombing, let's let's go to Gaza when the war has stopped 1692 01:34:10,080 --> 01:34:12,800 and let's go talk with farmers, let's go talk with mothers, 1693 01:34:12,920 --> 01:34:17,680 let's go talk with young women who aspire to study abroad but 1694 01:34:17,680 --> 01:34:19,520 can't because they're locked down under siege. 1695 01:34:20,200 --> 01:34:25,040 I think that if I would hope that if Israeli. 1696 01:34:25,040 --> 01:34:29,760 Woman or other people. Who would other Israelis who 1697 01:34:29,760 --> 01:34:32,360 would be open to doing that, could hear these stories? 1698 01:34:32,760 --> 01:34:35,280 I think it could impact their understanding what they think 1699 01:34:35,280 --> 01:34:36,520 they understand about Palestinians. 1700 01:34:36,760 --> 01:34:41,920 I think there has been such a huge, huge operation of 1701 01:34:41,920 --> 01:34:47,240 dehumanization of Palestinians that you, I mean you see it from 1702 01:34:47,240 --> 01:34:50,880 the Israeli leadership unabashedly saying we don't 1703 01:34:50,880 --> 01:34:53,480 consider them human beings. If you, if you're hearing it 1704 01:34:53,480 --> 01:34:58,360 from your own leadership and you know, war propaganda heightens, 1705 01:34:58,360 --> 01:35:03,400 especially right now, it's it's more and more difficult for them 1706 01:35:03,400 --> 01:35:05,640 to humanize Palestinians. And I think that's what's really 1707 01:35:05,640 --> 01:35:09,320 missing for them. Excellent. 1708 01:35:09,920 --> 01:35:11,680 Thank you very much for that and and. 1709 01:35:11,680 --> 01:35:16,360 Maybe that answer also, I'm sure it does impacts on on your 1710 01:35:16,360 --> 01:35:22,920 comment about Russia and Ukraine and the fact that I believe if 1711 01:35:22,920 --> 01:35:27,280 we could, if we could stop the fighting and get people down to 1712 01:35:27,280 --> 01:35:31,760 talk, they would actually recognise that the Brotherhood 1713 01:35:31,760 --> 01:35:36,320 was greater than the the angst and the division which clearly 1714 01:35:36,320 --> 01:35:40,280 the West, the West has helped to sow in that region. 1715 01:35:41,160 --> 01:35:45,760 But very poignant comment, Eva, I've got to say, I've been 1716 01:35:45,760 --> 01:35:49,800 utterly fascinated by your commentaries and the journey 1717 01:35:49,800 --> 01:35:51,560 through your life. So I'm going to say thank you 1718 01:35:51,560 --> 01:35:55,480 very, very much for sharing that with me and the UK column 1719 01:35:55,480 --> 01:35:59,920 audience. There's a lot of the points that 1720 01:35:59,920 --> 01:36:04,320 you've raised that I'd like to ask more about and this 1721 01:36:04,320 --> 01:36:08,920 particular issue of, of how this vast worldwide propaganda 1722 01:36:08,920 --> 01:36:12,440 machine works and the the trouble that it causes. 1723 01:36:12,440 --> 01:36:14,840 I think we could have some really good discussion on that. 1724 01:36:15,200 --> 01:36:20,400 So I'm, I'm going to say if you feel that today's experience 1725 01:36:20,400 --> 01:36:24,520 hasn't been too bad and you might be able to join me again, 1726 01:36:24,520 --> 01:36:26,280 I'd. I'd very much like you to do 1727 01:36:26,280 --> 01:36:27,920 that. Oh, I would love to thank you 1728 01:36:27,920 --> 01:36:29,440 very much. You're an excellent. 1729 01:36:29,640 --> 01:36:32,080 Interviewer and listener. And you ask. 1730 01:36:32,480 --> 01:36:34,400 Wonderful, excellent, I should say questions. 1731 01:36:34,400 --> 01:36:37,640 So I would be very happy to to come on your show again. 1732 01:36:39,400 --> 01:36:42,120 OK, lovely. Thank you very much for that 1733 01:36:42,120 --> 01:36:43,920 well. Thank you for joining me today.