Hello, I'm Charles Mallett with AUK column interview and today
I'm joined by Doctor Sam Bailey who has received a demand for
148,000 New Zealand dollars by a disciplinary tribunal.
Sam, thank you very much for joining me and a very warm
Welcome to UK column. Oh, it's such a pleasure to be
here. Thank you so much for the
invitation. Not at all.
Now, as I alluded to you, you have quite a well, let's say
challenge ahead of you in in many regards.
But I think what I'd like to do is just step back from that and
there's going to be a lot to get through.
But let's start with a with a bit of background and on the
medical side of it, the career side of it.
Just describe to me what your medical practise, what your life
was like prior to 2020 and and your voyage into the public eye,
let's say. Yes.
Well, I was trained conventionally at, so I went to
Otago University in New Zealand and I worked in various
different specialties. So general practise, emergency
medicine, sexual health and clinical trials.
I spent quite a long time with new drugs and I was the research
physician, like the one of the lead physicians, looking after
the patients. So seeing people and looking
after them while they're trialling new drugs.
And I was always probably quite orthodox and conventional.
I did everything by the book. I patients tended to like me a
lot and I never had a patient complaint.
And I started to get a little bit disgruntled with medicine,
the work a few years before 2020 where I got frustrated with the
problems with trying to get treatments to people.
So I started my own online doctor business, which was the
first of its kind in New Zealand, and before that kind of
became normal. And as a consequence of that, I
was sort of headhunted for ATV show to be a health presenter
for that. And I never thought you could do
that as a doctor. And I loved it.
And I really loved doing presenting.
And so I did a series for the, like, the main network in New
Zealand. And then one of my very good
friends suggested to me that I should start my own YouTube
channel because of doing this presenting.
And I thought, oh, really like people would want to watch a
doctor. And she said, yeah, yeah, yeah,
do that. You'd be really good at it.
So. And about halfway through 2019,
I sort of started a channel, but it was mostly focused on my
business that I had at that time.
And, and then at the end of that year, I burnt myself out with
this business. And then I decided I'm just
going to go back into the work that I was doing and, and just
do these YouTube videos on the side.
And so I did that really. And then, yeah, 2020 happened.
And so, yeah, do you want me to continue with with 2020?
Well, I'll tell you what just just before we do get into that,
because I think I think it's fascinating that that it was
that way round in, in that you you were very much in the public
eye. And you therefore, had, you
know, gone to YouTube as well, which I'm sure we might be able
to talk about a little bit later.
But I think given what's happened before or during
perhaps your time speaking as a doctor on television, was there
any, was there any relationship there with the Medical Council
of New Zealand as to sort of what you should or shouldn't do?
I mean, you know, in terms of the the messaging, were you
given pressure or direction from anywhere as to how to conduct
yourself? No, not at all.
So it was a scripted TV show. So it was based on a British TV
show actually called. I'm just trying to think of it.
It's a doctor one. Sorry, it's left me.
It will come to me later that Michael Mosley was on that TV
show. So that was what it was very
much. I was one of four presenters.
And because it was scripted, you couldn't go off paste at all
like it was. You said what you were supposed
to say and they taught me how to do presenting.
Really, I didn't know how to do any of that first until I did
that TV show and I was They got me back for a second season and
I was halfway through filming that in 2020 when everything
went wrong. Wow, OK.
But so that's fascinating looking back then, you know, to
the the fact that it was scripted and whatever and now
viewing public health in the way that you do, how do you sort of
consider what it is that you were being asked to do and say?
Yeah, there's a lot of forgiveness of you have to do of
yourself of the things that I once believed in.
And I think I think about this on lots of different areas.
So it crosses over into vaccination and in areas that I,
I just assumed everything that I was taught was correct and I
never questioned it and I never looked at it myself.
And it was actually funny because when I started the
YouTube channel in particular, people would write in and ask me
questions and I, I had a bit of hubris.
I thought that I knew everything.
And then I realised the questions are asking me.
I thought, Oh my gosh, I'm way out of my depth here.
I don't know. And the public are really well
educated. And it really, it humbled me to
think actually, you know, what I once knew was wrong.
And I don't take anything for granted now.
So that's what I focus myself and my husband, Mark, we focus
on extensive research before we'll make a comment on
anything. So yeah, I, I feel a little bit
ashamed of what I was like, but I, you have to forgive yourself
for that. Yeah, I mean, I, well, that's
very candid. I, I think really I, I was sort
of considering it from the other side of it, as in you were being
used as a mouthpiece, as a trusted voice.
I mean. So rather than considering your
own part in it, I was wondering also what you think about those
that were using you in effect as a as a messaging tool.
Definitely. That's totally what it was.
And I was the most popular of the presenters.
I knew that they told me that. They gave me that feedback.
And I, yeah, I, I, I didn't, I liked the idea of being on TV
and that sort of thing. And, you know, initially you
feel really flattered by it, but they do use you for their own
purposes. And now I look back at what the
kind of subjects were and they were clearly, you know, came top
down of these are the these are the talking points that we need
to the public to be aware of. And yeah, and I was very naive
to that. And, and so, you know, with that
in mind, get, get well, obviously you've heard your
husband Mark again, medically trained when the, the initial
reporting was coming out sort of end of 2019 about, you know, yet
another scary and mysterious illness from China.
There was obviously a, a, very much an, an echo to things that
we'd heard previously over the last couple of decades.
If you, if you can recall what, what, what did you think at that
point? And and you know, what were you
talking about with Mark and those those around you?
Yeah. So obviously we at the end of
2019, beginning of 2020, you know, we were paying attention
to this, but a lot of it, we thought, oh, this is, this
sounds like nothing, you know, like that, nothing's going to
come of it really. And then as the media hype
really intensified and this is at the stage, I'm getting quite
a few questions from my audience asking me to talk about
coronavirus. And I only had a really small
channel at this point. And I thought I felt a bit
uncomfortable with it because I didn't know.
And I, I thought, I don't really want to report on this until I
know more. And Mark was heavily behind me
doing the research where both of us were at that stage trying to
put the pieces together. And I think the overwhelming
feeling was, and I'm sure you and your audience wouldn't
identify with us, was that it didn't the the messaging that we
were getting on the media didn't have any semblance of what was
happening in reality. Like you could look outside and
think, this looks completely normal, like everything's fine.
But why are they saying all this?
And that it was that mismatch of information that really set us
off on looking into it. And particularly, I had no
interest in virology and viruses.
I'll be perfectly honest, it's a very dry, boring subject and I
never thought that that would be something that we would end up
diving into so deeply. But it is what happened because
we had to understand for ourselves.
And I think we looked initially at The Who information and
realised this doesn't, this doesn't add up.
The people that are dying, elderly at their time of life,
end of life, this is this real? There's big problems here.
And then obviously dived right into the of the the research.
And I mean, you know, the audience, obviously UK column
audience is predominantly based in the UK, but we do have a very
wide base all over the world. And everybody will identify
anyone certainly listen to this will, will identify exactly with
with what you're saying to to what extent in New Zealand, a
country that I think from the outside looked like it had an
incredibly harsh regime imposed. To what extent did that was that
Telegraph, did it, did it seem like it was going to go bananas
or, or was that, did that come as a enormous surprise?
They really tested the population quite a lot with I, I
think the media in itself was very critical of, of like they,
they really like Jacinda Arjun was framed as this kind of
saviour in a way. And so she was coming off, she
was still very popular because of other things that had
happened over the previous years.
And so I think the fear was ramped up massively and the
population were like putty in the hands of the authorities.
And, you know, extremely, they just went along with it all.
And yeah, it was extremely authoritarian, Mark and I didn't
go along with any of it from the beginning because we thought it
was wrong and had no basis. And, you know, these ideas of
mandates and things, obviously these are agreements and we went
on into that. But you realise too how
politicians were portrayed overseas, like over the time
Jacinda became more and more unpopular, but overseas she was
still portrayed as this amazing person and was doing all these
wonderful things. But it was, I mean, even we had
those extreme MIQ quarantine rules where it was basically
like coming into a prison if you were coming back into the
country as a New Zealander and you'd be in these quarantine
situations. And I mean, looking back now,
there's no way they could get away with it now.
But at that time, I think the population was incredibly
fearful of what, of what this thing was.
I. Think that's it.
I think again, really wherever anyone was, the the response was
just so surprising that people were almost exclusively caught
off guard. Now for the majority of us with
without any skin in the game, as it were, with no medical
training, no medical professional links.
Whether or not as you, as you say, go along with it was a was
a different decision for for you to decide to not go along with
it or to speak out is a is a of a altogether different order of
magnitude. Just describe how it was that
you did make that decision to become active and to speak out,
and therefore to put your reputation, as it were, on the
line. Yeah, I guess.
So in early 2020, we were getting these requests and
people were asking and I thought, OK, I'll just say what
I think and say that this is my opinion.
And because I maybe it's my naive personality, but that's
what I'm like. I just think, I'll just say what
I think. And, you know, I didn't know, I
had no idea what was coming. But we found this book, Virus
Mania, which was critical for Mark.
And I, Mark found it first. And it was about the history of
virology, of the different pandemics that have happened
before and how you could see what was playing out real time.
And that caused a paradigm shift in my thinking and Mark's
thinking. And a lot of the themes of my
videos then became focused on this virus mania book because I
just, I found it so the shift of, of losing fear and about
what pandemics were and not being scared.
So I, and again, this was not sort of intentional.
I had no idea what was playing out because I was still working
at this point as a doctor in clinical trials.
I had my, you know, bread and butter, as it were.
And, but my videos are really popular.
So I did one on social distancing and I think it got
over 600,000 views on YouTube. And I didn't, you know, it was
really surprising to me and people would get very angry in
the comments. And I, I thought, OK, well, I'm
just going to play along with this.
I'm just going to carry on and see what happens.
But it was really September 2020 that it was my crossing of the
Rubicon where I made a video and I consciously did this where I,
I knew that there was in New Zealand at that time, it was
just before the elections were happening.
And a lady that I knew was running APCR clinic in my
hometown, Christchurch. And she told me that they'd shut
it down for several months before and that now the Ministry
of Health were pumping all this money in.
And I knew when they did that, that the testing would go up and
therefore the cases would go up and the fear.
And so I made a video about that.
And as a side issue, I kind of said I won't have a coronavirus
vaccine if and when it comes about.
And I, I thought, I'm saying this, this is my opinion.
And I, I specifically said, I'm not telling you what to do.
You've got to make your own decision up, but this is what
I'm doing. And, and then I had a phone call
from the TV show, from the lawyer saying take down your
video. And I was sort of just so
affronted. I was like, what, what do they
think? They're not the editor of my
YouTube channel. Well, I can go and get stuffed.
And so I said no. And I said, well, take down,
take out the bit on vaccines. And I knew then what this was
all about and this happened and you realise how planned these
things are because that happened.
Then I had an email from the Medical Council saying I'd had
all these complaints about this video.
There was smear articles from AFP and you know, the fact
checking organisations, Facebook was blocking my video.
And yeah, it just, it was like my whole world changed at that
point. My, the job that I'd had for a
long time, for 12 years, told me to stop coming into work.
And, and it was at the time, it was really shocking and kind of,
but you're sort of just on running on adrenaline and not
really I, I didn't go into it thinking I'm going to create
this for myself, Like this is going to happen to me.
I had no idea what was kind of coming, but I'm so, so grateful
for it because it was, it's really what I needed.
It's what needed to happen to me to make me really wake up to
much bigger problems. It is amazing.
I mean, with the benefit of hindsight again, and given your
experience with clinical trials, were you even that even with
that in mind, were you sort of shocked at, well, either
directly or indirectly the, the, the power of the Pharmaceutical
industry? Yeah, I, I think what shocked me
most, Charles, was just, I thought we had, I thought we
lived in a country with free speech.
And I know that sounds so naive. At the time, I really believed
that I could say what I thought and there wouldn't be negative
consequences in that way, that they would target my work and my
reputation and everything else. And that's what really shocked
me, was thinking, oh, this is really controlled.
And then later on I found out that the Ministry of Health had
been watching me for six months before they did anything.
And the head of the Medical Council, the CEO, was talking to
the director general of Health. And this, these are incredibly
powerful conversations about me and about my YouTube channel and
the problem I was causing for them.
And that shocked me too, when I found that out later that I
thought I'm just one individual. How can it be that I'm causing
so, so many ripples? But it it was very coordinated.
You know, it's amazing, especially that the the specific
trigger for that was quite clearly a reference to a vaccine
that as far as anyone was aware by that point didn't even exist.
Was there further articulation on that point about, you know
that you should sort of undergo correct, you know, with the
suggestion that you might put out a different message or was
it just to do taking it down? I mean we, we, were you ever
given the sense that you would there to at some point promote
such a product? No, it was really This all came
from that TV show. Lawyer was the that basically
stop it and, you know, just stop this.
And they think they thought that they could quite quickly and
easily that I would just be go away quietly.
And and they were, I think, surprised that I was not going
to do that. Yeah.
So, and at this point too, the Medical Council are asking me to
sign a, a gag order and say that I can't make any videos on
COVID-19. I can talk about anything else,
but not COVID-19. And there was no way I was going
to bend the knee to that because it's like leading the camel in
the tent. You know, you don't, you don't
let them have anything otherwise.
And, and I look, I'm so grateful I did that because most of the
doctors that have gone through this process, at least in New
Zealand have, have signed that order because they thought that
they had to. And whereas I I knew straight
away that this was only going to lead to very bad things.
Absolutely. Well, that's the, the right call
for, for certainly for your burgeoning audience.
I mean, thank goodness. But but did they specify why was
it, was it that you couldn't say anything or was the the
inference that anything you were going to say was going to be
negative or the the wrong message?
I mean, did did they actually sort of spell that out?
Well, it was based on these complaints that I was, you know,
causing public had the potential to cause public harm.
And because my messaging was going against the government at
that time, it still is, I guess the one source of truth they
couldn't have it that it was that was that was the reason.
And I, I mean, I, I, I didn't even anticipate that this is the
way that they'd go. Like I thought there's no way
because the Medical Council, they can control my licence,
practising as a doctor. And after that kind of happened,
I was like, I can't be part of this.
I can't be part of this corrupt medical system.
It's, it's terrible. And decided I'm not going to
renew my licence. Sort of, you know, this is at
the end of 2020. But you know, before that I
thought, I thought they'd have no power to, to control my
speech of what I'm doing in my private life.
Essentially, it's not. But they, the problem with me
was that I had by that stage a huge reach and a huge audience.
And they were, I was making them very nervous.
Yeah, evidently so. And just you just mentioned that
the certificate to practise and then the the the register itself
because there was a development there, but I think the following
year in 2021, what what happened then with regard to the
register? In order to practise in New
Zealand at least, you have to have, you're on the register,
which means you're kind of on the list of doctors.
And then you apply for a practising certificate every
year where you pay the fee to the Medical Council and that
allows you to prescribe and order, you know, blood tests and
so forth. So in 2021, I'm, I'm on the, I'm
on the register and I had a practising certificate, but I
was actually pregnant at that time.
And I decided for various reasons as well that I, I don't
want to do this anymore. And so my practising certificate
expired in May of 2021. And as soon as that happened and
I published another video on YouTube, then they said that I
was practising medicine without a licence by making, by
publishing YouTube videos. And that's a criminal offence in
New Zealand, that if you're putting, you're practising and
seeing patients without being licenced, you know, you can go,
it's, it's criminal. So that was when things really
started heating up because at that point I still had a lawyer
and they said this is very important that I fight this
because otherwise I will be, you know, could be facing, you know,
serious going to gaol. You know, this is where we, we
get into the, the sort of nuts and bolts of it and the way in
which the book has been thrown at you via the incredibly worded
legislation contained in, in the act that covers all of this
going back to I think 2003. And I'm just going to read now
what, what happened a little bit later in August 2023 when a, a
tribunal was convened. I don't want to jump ahead
necessarily, but I think the audience just needs to
understand what, what happened. And specifically the, the, the
tribunal convened and ordered cancellation of registration,
not to apply for re registration for two years from the date of
the decision. Censia fine of $10,000,
conditions on re registration and then payment of $148,450.41,
amounting to 60% of the costs of the PCC investigation and
hearing estimated costs. It is perfectly astonishing.
I would say to me, to anybody listening to what you said so
far that that could possibly be the result of any of this.
But I, as I say, I have leapt ahead slightly, intentionally
say because how did it, how on earth did it get to that point
and, and to what extent were you involved in any of that?
I tried to go to deal with this, you know, legally, I guess with
a lawyer. I had AQC that was helping me at
that time, the Queen's Counsel, and I thought, I thought that
this was legitimate, that I can fight this and say, because I
was saying things like I was spreading misinformation.
And I would ask, well, what is that?
What is the misinformation? And they couldn't define it
because they don't know it was a going against what the
government was saying that is deemed as misinformation.
And so I tried to, under bad advice, we, I went to the High
Court to try and stop this from happening because they were now
saying that I was practising without a licence and that that
didn't go in my favour. And after that I realised that
there was nothing I could do. I, they were going to take me to
this disciplinary tribunal. And it, it really shocked me
because I thought what, what is this?
What? I am only telling the truth
because I haven't been lying. There's no advantage for me
doing this. But I felt very strongly that
people need to, you need to speak up and say when you see
something going that's wrong. And anyway, I, it was kind of
leading into 2022, a few doctors had done this process of equity,
which was completely new to me. And equity is the idea that if
you haven't done any harm, it applies to all of us and common
law jurisdiction. So New Zealand's one of them,
England is another obviously. Is that you with the principles
of equity? I have no contract with them.
They're trying to establish a trust with me and basically make
themselves a beneficiary in order to get money off me is
essentially what the process is. And under the process of equity,
this is I have no contract with them.
So there was a doctor that had basically was going through the
process of being investigated in New Zealand, Doctor Minnie
Garcia. And he was just did this
process, which is issuing them notices and he was removed off
the register. Like no, not nothing was said.
He was just taken off the register.
And and I talked to Manny and he said, Sam, you've got to go down
this process. You're not you're it's corrupt.
The tribunal, the whole investigation, you can't go into
the system. And so Manny convinced me and I
thought like I'm going to try this.
And at the same time Mark, my husband who hasn't practised as
a doctor since 2016, by this point, he was being now
investigated for doing an interview, now trying to
prosecute him as well. And so he did this process of
equity, never communicated with the Medical Council and was
again removed off the register. No, no, no information about
this, just you can see that he was taken off the medical
register and we knew about another 3 or 4 doctors that had
done this. So for me, they didn't take me
off, but I now I realise it was because I was too much of a
problem for them. They needed me as an example to
other doctors. So the process went through to
the tribunal and I never engaged with them after sort of early
2022 because I realised that I can't, I can't win in this.
This is, it's literally a kangaroo court that they operate
and they, they determine the outcome before you've even
started. Like I realise now that that was
as soon as I had the first complaint, it was already
determine what I was, what was going to happen to me.
In fact, and I will mention this because it's affects the UK
audience, but one thing that I found crazy was that there was
there is auk Doctor Who's currently practising who made a
complaint about me in that early time, who said that I was his
treating doctor. And this complaint was upheld by
the Medical Council as a legitimate complaint because
there are different pathways that you can complain about a
doctor. And this U kg P said that I was
seeing him and, and that I because he was watching my
videos, he was choosing to. And this isn't held up as some
delusion. This is accepted by the Medical
Council. And this is how crazy it is.
Like it's not. There's no connection with
reality of what you know is going on.
None, none whatsoever. And I the the actor that I
referred to is the Health Practitioners Competence
Assurance Act of 2003. And for anyone who's put their
head anywhere near any so called public health legislation, they
will know the, the sort of the tenor of it and it is perfectly
extraordinary. Corrupt is exactly the right
word. I'm just going to read a little
bit more from the results of the tribunal and part of it.
The charge summary said that the PCC submitted that Section 93
does not require evidence of actual harm, but risk of serious
harm posed by the charged conduct.
And then they go on say it was therefore submitted that the
tribunal can be satisfied that Doctor Bailey's conduct poses a
risk of serious harm to the public.
So at the same time, they're saying that there's no need to
provide evidence of such, but that the risk is still there.
Now, from what I read, I, I, I don't think they even
articulated what sort of harm they were imagining could be
serious and potential. Did that ever actually come out?
No, it was essentially 2 expert witnesses that are highly
compromised anyway because they work for the vaccine industry in
the, the government and say said that I on their opinion that I
was a, you know, had the potential of public harm.
And they don't have to provide any data for this.
They just state it and that's accepted.
And that's part of the costs because everything that they do
is just like an open chequebook which is eventually charged back
to me. So if they decide to fly down
these individuals to do the tribunal and stay in hotels and
have meals and everything else, that's all just put on the
doctor Sam Bailey, you know, ticket there and it's charged to
the Medical Council and then they pass it on to me as part of
the costs. And it's, it's literally, it
could be anything. They, there's no checking or
anything of what, what should be done, what, what the costs are.
It's it's completely arbitrary. It is, I mean, well, I think
it's more than that. I mean, it's a complete racket.
You in the back and forth we had before this you, you, you
phrased it very well. I thought you, you put it down
as you being asked to pay for your own persecution, which is
precisely what it is. I mean, it is, it is absolutely
astonishing. And just go a bit further on the
on the utter corruption the the the threat of suspension was
written down as as such, suspension will limit Doctor
Bailey's ability to advertise herself as a doctor when she
expresses harmful views. If after suspension of
registration she continued to use the title Doctor, she would
likely commit an offence against Section 7 brackets one of the
ACT. Now that piqued my curiosity
because certainly in the United Kingdom it's totally customary
for people to be referred to as doctor regardless of whether
they hold a medical doctorate or otherwise, regardless of whether
they're practising or retired. So IE mailed the Medical Council
of New Zealand and said what's the form in terms of etiquette
and procedure and whatever and I got the reply back saying the
title doctor is not a protected title under current legislation.
As such, individuals who have retired from medical practise
may choose to continue using the title doctor if they wish.
This is common practise. So they are corrupting at at
every turn. This is quite clearly abusing
the letter of the law as written down that they refer to in
Section 1. I have of course looked at
Section 1. There's absolutely nothing about
that. So they, they are utterly moving
the goal posts in order to catch you wherever it is you decide to
go or, or or even if you, you know, don't necessarily do
anything. What this does is it brings us
to the the Medical Council themselves, because like you
say, the law only allows them to fine of up to $30,000.
But then they can increase by using the, the word costs.
And therefore, in a sense, the Sky's the limit.
But where exactly does the Medical Council of New Zealand
fit in, in terms of the sort of state architecture?
How are they positioned and funded and and the rest of it?
Yeah. So they are a body corporate and
they are funded by medical practitioners.
So they, medical practitioners pay the money every year in
order so that the doctor can prescribe and so forth.
So that's where the most, that's where their money comes from.
But it also means that they're not, you can't do Freedom of
Information requests about to them because they're a private
body corporate. They're listed on the done and
bad foot register, you know, as a, as a, as a company.
So there are 12 members of the Medical Council.
And this used to be like a, an organisation that was 4 doctors
run by doctors. So it was there to try and I
guess protect doctors. And now it's to protect the
public, whatever that's supposed to mean.
And they have 12 members and eight of them are chosen by the
government of whatever, you know.
So they are clearly an agency that are controlling, are
controlled by the government to control doctors.
Yeah. So it's, there's no regulation
of them. I, I don't, I've looked into
that of who cheques them there. There is none.
Yeah. I mean, which seems absolutely
astonishing on it's own, but especially when you consider
that they are able to set up a process by which they may
recover costs that that are in effect to their own benefit,
either as a as APR exercise or or simply a, a financial one.
On on the PR side of it. Obviously you are in New Zealand
and across the world a public figure.
You know, you have as you said, as you described previously been
on the television in your capacity as then a practising Dr
subsequently on on YouTube. You know, you are well known to
a lot of people who've looked into this and actually taken the
time to try and work out what on earth is going on.
How has this been reported elsewhere?
Because clearly you know, you have put that out.
We're talking about it on Auk column interview.
It seems from perhaps our side of the fence that there's a
terrific potential for a backfire effect against the, the
Medical Council. I mean it, it seems to be an
incredibly stupid thing for them to do because it draws attention
to you and to what you're doing. And we'll ask people to ask
questions. But has there been a a sort of a
messaging attempt from them in so far as this is concerned?
I think what has been really interesting, like you, you say,
is the I can only comment on what I've seen in New Zealand in
terms of the, because I've had a lot of recently, I've had a
huge, a lot of smear attacks by the mainstream media and 90%
plus of people in the comment section are supporting me.
And, and it was astonishing because most people that I
talked to said I've been reading because I don't read them.
I can't stand reading mainstream media.
But you know, we'll go through it and tell me that they could
find one comment out of 100 and, you know, 200 comments and one's
negative or something. So I know that the public are on
my side. But also in terms of the Medical
Council, there's, there really are an ivory tower that are just
in their own land of I don't think they realise what is
coming to them in terms of negative consequences just from
the public. The messaging is for the
doctors. This is what it's all about is I
don't think the Medical Council necessarily care about the
public, which is a foolish mistake in my, in my opinion.
But they are very worried about doctors doing the same as me and
speaking out. And it's, they're really
clamping down. So recently there was a case of
a Doctor Who spoke out because they were going to bring in
McDonald's into a small kind of rural, touristy town.
And a doctor said that they didn't think it was a healthy
choice, that they shouldn't be doing this.
And the Medical Council were trying to censor this doctor for
saying that. And you realise this is just
escalating and, and I, and I am, I think the most important
message really is for doctors is realising that this is such a
slippery slope that it's, I know that it's bad for me, but really
it's not bad for me because it doesn't change what I do.
But I can see what is happening to doctors and how they are
being very much funnelled into a certain direction and I, I
foresee it as something terrible.
But what the public say, which I think is great, is that they do
not trust doctors and the medical system as such, like
they did prior to 2020 because of everything that's happened.
That's absolutely right. Sorry.
I realised as we gave, there's one thing I, I haven't allowed
you to make clear, which is that even if the fine was only for
$5, your point in relation to all of this and your response of
course, is that this concerns the principle and not the amount
of money. So to just just give your, you
know, your view of your response to the demand for money.
Yes. So I'm not paying them anything.
And I've had incredibly generous offers of people wanting to do
GoFundMe and you know, the crowdfunding sort of things.
And, and I know I could probably raise that money easily, but I
don't want to, I don't want anyone else's money and I don't
want my money to pay money to this corrupt.
I mean, they're essentially like a terrorist organisation.
They operate out of fear of, of instilling fear in people.
And I will not do it. I will not submit to them.
Good for you is what I say and I'm sure absolutely everybody
listening and a lot of people will this will be sent very,
very far and wide and people will absolutely say good for you
and that that is the principle. So anybody listening, don't.
Reach under your mattress to pull something out to give Sam
to fund a corrupt organisation as part of a corrupt process.
But instead, you know, listen to to the principle of the matter
and to what she says about it. And this actually brings us on
to the next point, which again, you know, in terms of the law
that the the book that's being thrown at you.
Of course this concerns or the heart of this is is free speech
and they they break from the the charge detail.
It's slightly lengthy, but I think it does does bear reading.
In relation to freedom of speech, the Tribune agrees that
while the doctor may express an opinion on medical matters,
professional standards require her to do so in a balanced way.
The doctor's professional obligations constitute the
justified limitation on the right to freedom of speech.
The justified limitation on the right to freedom of speech.
Health professionals must consider and assess evidence in
a balanced manner, providing sufficient evidence from
reputable sources, especially essential within the context of
a public health response where the potential for harm is
greater. I think those words are
absolutely extraordinary, and if anybody can read those and think
that that seems fine, there is a very, very big problem.
What on earth do they mean when they talk about things being
done in a balanced way? Well, it was the same that
happened with we back in April 2021 in New Zealand, All
doctors. It was a statement, a guidance
statement that was put out to all doctors and, and it said
when you were giving advice for patients about vaccination, you
must promote the benefits of the vaccination.
That was it. You couldn't talk about the
negatives, only the benefits. And that we're again, they said
in this document that you were expected as a medical
practitioner to go and have be vaccinated.
So this was a statement that went out to all doctors.
So it's very clear what they're signposting here and saying you
must do this. Of course, this is absolutely
ridiculous. The, the, the balanced
reporting. I mean, I can give so many
examples. And I'm sure you know the same
in the UK of we're as there is only one source of truth in New
Zealand about vaccination and health and what to do with the
pandemic. You had to do what the
government said or else. And it's just, I don't know,
like I say, if they are so out of touch with reality that they
think that this is legitimate or that they think that the hubris
that they can get away with it. But of course, you know, it's
just, there's nothing, it's completely wrong.
Absolutely it is. And I think what, what it does
also is it, it, it brings to the fore the, the vehicle that was
used in order to have this explosion of messaging from it,
whether it be in relation to vaccines or to behaviours or
interventions or whatever, whatever they were called
restrictions. I mean, you know, the, the list
is very, very long. But all of this was predicated
on the infectious disease model in that if it couldn't be
demonstrated or at least talked about that one person could make
another person. I'll then, frankly, public
health is is to a large extent dead in the water.
Now, you referred earlier on to your engagement with the book
Virus Mania. The, the, the important point
here is that this has LED you into a way of thinking that
certainly wasn't covered in any of your medical training, but
does have such a great significance in the way that
public health, as I say, is sort of propagandised and broadcast
about. So just, I know it's a very,
very big area, but in terms of evidence and absence of
evidence, just just give us a sort of an update on where this
has taken you with regard to the the idea of infectious disease
being a spectre that should be feared.
That book that changed me, Virus Mania, I ended up by chance
becoming a Co author. This is how I think God works is
that it gets you into an area that you need to go into.
And so I became a Co author of that.
They reached out to me and asked me if I'd interview one of the
authors of the book and I did. And then they asked me, would I
become a Co author? And subsequently it sparked my
interest in really then Mark as well, my husband Mark, I have to
give him a plug because he's he's incredibly smart man.
And he has been always ahead of me in terms of the Canary in the
coal mine of realising things. And and then I catch up and go,
Oh my gosh, you're right, Mark about this.
And so we've dived deeply into pandy mix and for different
people, it speaks to them and for on different for different
reasons. And for me personally, what
really convinced me was under looking into the contagion
experiments that were done in the Spanish flu era in 1918 and
realising that they couldn't make people sick with one of
them reportedly most deadly viruses of our time, of our of
our history. And so Mark and I have
extensively researched numerous viruses and the background of
virology. And what we do is we go to the
foundational papers where a virus is said to be the and we
unpack it and say, well, is that actually shown scientifically?
And most of the time with virology, they don't do the
basic scientific requirements for an experiment.
So they don't do control studies control, they do essentially
torture experiments a lot of the time on animals to prove that
they there is a virus. And we've, we've got a wide
range of videos on these subjects.
And also Mark's written a a technical paper on biology
itself, which is about 28,000 words, which is really
accessible to anybody. Just for people that want to
understand why we say what we say.
It goes through it very logically and explains the
science and background behind the fraud of virology.
And it's important for us to why I think this is so important is
because most of us do things, especially in the last five
years, we've seen that people do things out of fear and fear of,
of, of a virus is, is unnecessary.
And we, you can live. For me personally, I found it a
very empowering aspect to hold onto because it it impacts your
life and the way you live and be healthy, how to be healthy, what
makes, what causes disease, what and especially infectious
diseases. And you can see in terms of one
World government and the New World Order that pandemics are
one of the things that they're using to control people.
I know there's lots of areas to this, but it's important that
people understand that pandemics are not, you know, come out of a
lab or come from bats jumping, you know, into, into humans or
anything. It's, it's this is a fantasy
construct that has no basis in scientific reality.
And when you appreciate that, you don't fear germs and
infectious diseases any longer. And for Mark and I, it's we've
written another book called the Final Pandemic, which is again
about what happened in COVID. And also it goes into lots of
other different. It's a like a mini version of
Virus Mania for people that are interested in learning more.
Yeah. And I mean, as I said, it is an
absolutely enormous topic, but I really would encourage people
to, to, to get into that and understand what it is that they
haven't been told, I think critically.
But the, the sort of mainstream response to that and the, the
conditioned response that people are sort of provoked into having
is well, but, but people still get ill and people, people get
ill at the same time and, and in the same place.
And you've gone back to the sort of earlier part of the 20th
century and looked particularly at the work of Ulrich Williams.
And you have, you know, I think encapsulated all that.
That isn't talked to me. You just talked about a doctor
speaking out about against McDonald's and then being shut
down. So, so the, the, the other side
of it is what are the other, the other influences on our health?
Just just talk a bit a bit about that.
And indeed how in sort of modern society, we are just pushed into
a position where we're not even supposed to consider any other
factors. Yeah, of course.
And, and Charles, I, I was very, I was in this camp, you know, I
was very orthodox and very much believed all, all of this until
I until I looked into it myself. Like I said, it just it's, it's
an amazing transformation that I've had and the way we live
and, and you can see it with our own.
I just say really quickly, with our family, we're incredibly
healthy and people can't look at us, myself, my husband, our
children and say that we're not healthy because we are and we
have skin in the game with it and that we want to live by what
we say. So I think it's not
understanding that when you talk to a doctor that they don't know
anything about nutrition because it wasn't talked to them at at
medical school. And I know that we were taught
about Physiology and how pathways work with metabolism,
but you don't know anything about nutrition or what to say
to someone of what they should do.
And, and it's all the basic things that our grandmothers
knew, you know, like having a having a good diet and exercise
and sunlight and living in a way, in a positive way where
you're around positive people and, and happiness and low
stress. And, you know, and so it's all
of the, the terrain. And I also like to explain the
idea of terrain theory to people that new to it is that if you,
if you're interested in plants, I love gardening with plants.
You a plant doesn't just get sick randomly.
Something usually happens to it. It's something wrong with the
soil, too much water, not enough water, too much light, not
enough light wind and the makeup of the plant.
Some are more resilient to others and can last a little bit
longer, but eventually the bugs and everything come in to clean
up when the the plant is under stress.
And that's the same thing that happens to us.
We're surrounded by bacteria, microorganisms in US, on us.
It's everywhere and we can't, we shouldn't be afraid of it.
That it's part of a process of healing that's used.
And so many people talk about this extensively, you know,
historically and and also currently of there's a way of
looking at life where things don't just happen to us.
Viruses don't just come out and jump on us and get us it.
Even when you say it like that, it's just, it doesn't make any
sense because it doesn't actually happen that way.
And what I found over the last few years is learning what
really causes disease. And like you said, there's a, a
book by an author that was, he's deceased now, Doctor Erich
Williams, that we brought back to understand the terrain and
why we get sick and what you can do about it.
And that book's called Terrain Therapy that I've also been
involved in. Yeah, which I, I should say is,
is absolutely fascinating. And I, I definitely encourage
people to, to have a look at that.
But I think the, you know, we've talked about free speech and the
way in which the medical profession is used as part of
the control grid by in effect, subconsciously at least, fear
mongering through this paradigm of the idea that people will
make other people ill. And of course, the other thing
that's being done very obviously is the creation of very, very
sort of stark divide between those that do believe the
paradigm and those that are, you know, classified as being well,
at least spreaders of harmful misinformation or, or insane for
suggesting that the mainstream virological paradigm is not
actually the case. And that, that again seems
willful because of course, a lot of the, the terminology, let's,
let's say immunity, you know, a weaker Organism will of course
be susceptible. It's just that the description
of the mainstream is susceptible to something that's being passed
from somebody else. Now you have a A2 way sort of St
as it were, with your audience. Are you, are you getting the
sense that there is a greater degree of knowledge being built
up? I mean, obviously amongst those
that do follow you, but but are you finding people who are
perhaps less likely to have been exposed to such thoughts now,
you know, shifting in their in their beliefs is is there a
ripple effect to all of this? Absolutely.
And I think what I've definitely witnessed, I mean even since
2020, obviously the fear levels have dropped massively.
And I think that's really important because people are far
more likely to be open to things when they're not fearful to
hearing it, you know, for the first time.
And what I found fascinating is just in in in some ways it's
been cruel and horrid as well. But as most people that you talk
to know someone that has been vaccine injured, at least this
is the way it is in New Zealand. And so you can more easily talk
to people about things or at least suggest things and, and
they're open to it. And I think what I really find
an impact, well, just positive, I guess, is to see people, the
public are really onto it and really well educated and far
more than I think the authorities give them any credit
for. You know, like I think it's
this, that this, this is what was always thrown at me was that
my audience are health illiterate and I'm misleading
them because they're illiterate. And I thought, oh, my gosh, if
only they knew how clever the people are that I, I feel
privileged that they will come and listen to me, you know,
versus others. But it's, yeah, I definitely
have seen a shift in the at least the last five years.
And I think there are so many areas that you can tap into with
people. It doesn't, it's not necessarily
virology. I, I, like I say, I, I don't
find it extremely interesting or anything.
It's just, it's a very boring subject.
But it's been used to control us.
And so I, I want to be an expert in this area.
So I know I will not be controlled.
Yeah. But that's the critical bit.
You know, this is designed very specifically and wielded as a
tool of creating fear with which to create fear.
And that clearly has a detrimental effect on your
mental state. But I would say also your your
physical state that that inextricably linked.
There will be a percentage of people listening to this for
whom a lot of these concepts are new or at least problematic
because like all of us, like you, particularly having been in
the medical profession where this was stated as absolute
rigid fact and there was there was no debate about it at all.
To go on that path of of sort of eliminating fear from your life,
but not having to spend the next 40 years reading into the
literature. What sort of steps would you
recommend to people to start to get their lives on the right
track and and to, you know, to start to push that fear away?
It's a really good question. A person wrote to me recently
and I thought was really insightful is that they said
with anything with health, you have to have confidence in what
you're doing. And that a lot of this comes
down to your own testing and experimenting with yourself and
getting confidence with that. And I've, that has definitely
been the case for myself where what I used to believe that I'd
need to take antibiotics for in a certain situation, I would
myself not do that and see what would happen to me.
And realising having confidence in that process that you are
able to heal yourself. And then, you know, moving along
next time doing something else a little bit more.
And I think it is seriously, I always suggest to people that
you need to know everything that you're putting in your body.
And that's where your water comes from, where your food
comes from. What is it, what are you eating?
I, we're not very prescriptive with a certain diet, but it's
just knowing what is in it, what looking at the ingredients on
packets and things like that. Just thinking about it, opening
your mind and being in the moment for a second rather than
passively doing things like think about it where you where
you're getting these things from.
And I also encourage people to just test it with, you know, say
you're having your grandkids over or something and they're
sick. Just see what happens.
Just see, are you going to get sick?
A lot of it is our own conditioning that we think we're
going to get sick. We're being around them and sick
children or whatever. And I know this myself with my
own, with my own kids over this journey of saying I'm not
fearful of when a child has a runny nose or, you know, that I
might get sick. And part of it is actually just
having faith that we are so much more robust than we are told.
And yeah. And another thing I think that's
always really important and people identify this with us
immediately is knowing why. Why do the big Pharma and things
do this? It's because there's billions,
if not trillions of dollars involved.
And this is involved with from the whole shabam from diagnosis
testing, you know, the all these different tests that people
undergo now and through to treatments and vaccines and you
know, all the rest of it. It's realising follow the money
of where this goes and that we don't need all the stuff to be
healthy. It's.
We don't actually need that system and.
If you want to start on this journey, look into it yourself.
Don't just take my word for it, look into it and experiment with
yourself and and see you know and you'll get more confidence
with time. Yeah.
I mean, I think that's such a, it's such a sound message.
And again, you know, you, you refer back to the Pharmaceutical
industry and of course, absolutely a gigantic racket and
there is money to be made at every turn.
But a lot of that is done by convincing people that the cause
and effect is as they say it is. So you've just spoken about a
runny nose, which of course to the majority of people is to, is
considered to be the illness itself rather than the
expression of your body trying to deal with its current
situation. So you take the drug and then
you believe that that is what has made you better.
So I think we live in a culture where we expect there to be a
quick fix because we've taken something, but the quick fix is
is not really the the right way to be thinking about anything, I
don't think. Absolutely.
I, I couldn't agree with you more.
It's not. And I think you deprive yourself
of actually what true health is by thinking along those lines.
It's yeah, it I mean, it's a huge area to unpack, but I think
it's having inner confidence of knowing that you don't need.
This is a sick system that we're dealing with.
It's not a health system and there's no incentive for them to
help you. It's always about making you on
the conveyor belt as part of that sick system.
And we're conditioned from as soon as we're born, you know,
born in a hospital and died in a hospital.
And it, it's sad, but all these traditions that have been lost
of how to be well. And they're all the old stuff,
you know, the old school things that like our grand.
Well, my grandma used to say to me.
And I used to think, oh, yeah, do you really, you know, is that
really true? And now I sort of look back and
think, Oh my gosh, I just, I wish I'd had a bit more time to
talk to her about that. Well, I think this is it.
You know, we're going to need to sort of wrap up quite soon, but
but talking to people is of course the most important aspect
of all of this and, and wherever possible in person.
But it's very hard when one thinks like you do and you, you
have had that moment of discovering that things are not
as you've been told that they were.
It's very hard to consider being anything other than evangelical
about it. And of course that can have a
terrifically detrimental effect because you can appear heavy
handed if you're trying to convince people that in effect
you're right and they're wrong. If I'm not suggesting there is a
sort of magic bullet, but how would you recommend sort of
going about beginning to communicate with people about
this sort of thing? I, I'm very much, I don't try
and force things on people. I, I find that if people, if
people want to find me looking for the answers, that they'll
find me. And I don't need to, I don't
need to do any of the work. Yeah.
So I, I'm always tentative because I know that it splits
families apart. We've all seen this.
It's been hideous of just how how much the governments have
split us into groups and so that we can't even talk to each other
any longer. I, I think that it really comes
down to the person themselves. And I just, I try and have a
rapport with someone and, you know, just make little
suggestions of what, what do you think about it?
What, you know, does that make sense to you sort of thing?
And if it makes sense to them, then I won't go any further.
But if they have questions and things, I'm like, well, just,
you know, just keep sort of chipping away.
And and I'm still to this day, Charles, like it's amazing the
people that have only just found our work.
And it blows me away that they, you know, like I had a person
that was part of a head polio from when they were young and
had been part of a polio organisation.
And they recently found us and realised that what had happened
was, you know, she'd been poisoned with DDT when she was
younger. And for most of her life she'd
believed that this was a virus. And, and it was someone smearing
of me like in the same group and thought, well, this woman sounds
like really bad. So I need to look and see what
she's saying. So, you know, it's amazing how
people will will find you that need to find you and I, I just
think you've got to scratch that itch and keep looking.
Absolutely it, it really is. And I know a lot of people will
want to do exactly this and to find where they can follow what
you are doing, what you have been doing.
So just just tell us where. I mean, there is an absolute
enormous trove of material that you have produced and I know
people want to go towards it. Where?
Where should people go to find more about what you're doing?
Yeah, well, I have my own website which is probably the
most reliable and accurate of everything, which is Doctor DRI.
Won't give that up yet. Sam Bailey BAIL ey.com and if
you follow on sub stack, we have AI have a sub stack there as
well. And so it's doctor Sam
bailey.substack.com and I'm on various like on YouTube.
If you look at my name, you'll probably find me and various
other, but they're sort of smaller, you know, platforms
like Odyssey and things. But I think for most of the
work, if you can go to the website and most of our content
is available for free. We, we, we put the, the
information out to the public because we think it's really
important to, for people to learn and to know that it's not
all what we're told. And there is another way to
health. Absolutely, yeah, there, there
certainly is. And, and all of what Sam just
said and, and other things that have been referenced in the
interview will be put into the notes.
So no need to get the pencil and paper out to scribble that down.
It will, it will be written down in the notes.
Now Sam Bailey, we have barely scratched the surface.
We've covered a huge amount of ground nonetheless.
And you are not going to be paying any corrupt organisations
any money at all. So the audience have an awful
lot to think about as they, as they do go away in consideration
of what you've said. But thank you so much for
joining me. And I do hope you will come back
and give us an update at some point in the future.
Sam Bailey, thank you so much. Thank you so much, Charles.
It's been such a pleasure.