1
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None, you know, not everything 
is binary and and I think 

2
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something that I've learned over
the last year, particularly with

3
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regards to those quote, UN quote
on our side is how they are no 

4
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different to those on the other 
side. 

5
00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:56,760
Yes, absolutely. 
I mean, there's that old idea of

6
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the horseshoe where, you know, 
the the idea is that you have 

7
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this spectrum, let's call it, 
let's accept that the left right

8
00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:07,400
structure for a second, just for
analytical purposes. 

9
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OK, So you've got people on the 
left and people on the right. 

10
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And then they become more and 
more vociferous and more and 

11
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more polarized. 
And the idea is that instead of 

12
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getting further apart, they 
actually come closer together 

13
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because they become increasingly
doctrinaire and dogmatic, you 

14
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know, inclined to force their 
views onto other people. 

15
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And in doing so, they adopt more
and more a shared set of 

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behaviours and insistences or 
demands. 

17
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And I think there's a lot of 
truth in that. 

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That extremity just converges on
a sort of weird, somewhat 

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arbitrary authoritarianism. 
Which certainly feeds into the 

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conversation that you and I had 
some time back about the whole 

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left right dichotomy. 
Yes, I've discussed that one so 

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many times. 
I'm bored with it. 

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There is no left, right? 
It's not a useful construct. 

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I mean, people defend it because
there's so much political 

25
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writing that's based on it. 
And you know, the the framing 

26
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has come to mean something 
because of that writing, but I 

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just really find them somewhat 
empty. 

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So one of the things that I love
about you, Nick, is your ability

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to speak in front of groups of 
people. 

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00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:27,680
And I watched a a documentary a 
while ago, maybe 2 weeks ago, 

31
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and there was a clip of you 
speaking in Europe. 

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You've done a lot of this kind 
of thing over the last few 

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years, haven't you? 
Hundreds of talks. 

34
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Yeah. 
And it, it's, it is a strange 

35
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thing. 
I sometimes wonder, you know, at

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what point did I become 
completely, you know, I, I don't

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00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:53,120
have any sense. 
Oh, now I'm talking in front of 

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people. 
It's the same as if I was 

39
00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:56,760
talking to myself or just to one
person. 

40
00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:00,320
What, what, what strange thing 
does that highlight about my 

41
00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:05,560
psychology that it, it's sort of
never a threatening story. 

42
00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:09,360
I mean, I invest a lot of time 
in, in planning and, and, and 

43
00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:11,600
thinking through what I want to 
say. 

44
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But that's, that wouldn't really
change if the audience was one 

45
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or 1000. 
You know, if, if, if there's an 

46
00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:21,840
event and somebody's asked you 
to think about something and 

47
00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:25,880
come and talk about it, then I'm
going to, you know, do my best 

48
00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:28,480
And yeah. 
Yeah. 

49
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But I mean just on that, so we 
are kind of leading to was how 

50
00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:36,080
have you found general 
reactions? 

51
00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:39,240
I know that you spoke recently. 
What is, I mean, what has been 

52
00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:41,640
has, have you seen a shift over 
the years? 

53
00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:46,160
I've, I've noticed a recent 
shift that has totally surprised

54
00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:50,640
me. 
I did, I did 2 recent live 

55
00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:52,840
audience events and I love 
those. 

56
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It's my favorite is to be able 
to look at the faces and see how

57
00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:58,320
people are reacting as you're 
talking. 

58
00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:01,520
And then you notice somebody 
who's got like an whoa, he's 

59
00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:05,880
really upset or he's objecting 
to something you're saying and 

60
00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:07,440
you can sort of start 
interacting. 

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Even if it's not verbally, you 
know, you at least get a sense 

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of the, the ineffable parts of 
the communication or the non 

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verbal parts, I should rather 
say. 

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So the, the, the most recent two
of those live events, there was 

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one for the, for, you know, 
Professor Tim Noakes's World 

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Nutrition Summit. 
I'm a huge Noakes fan and a big 

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admirer of his scientific 
integrity and independence. 

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So I was, so I was hugely 
honoured to, to, to be 

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presenting there and I did a 
talk highlighting the, the, the 

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structure of propaganda and 
propagandized narratives. 

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And I the, the, the, the 
structure of the talk was to 

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00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:59,920
show the parallels between the 
climate change narrative, the, 

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00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:05,320
the saturated fats hypothesis 
and cholesterolemia hypothesis 

74
00:05:06,840 --> 00:05:09,600
that led to the whole statins 
fraud. 

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00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:13,320
And then the third one was of 
course the COVID fraud. 

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00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:19,360
And I, I just very carefully 
went through and, and show the 

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audience how the propaganda 
elements and what are, what are 

78
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the key propaganda elements? 
You start with a latent agenda. 

79
00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:34,920
You then spew out propaganda to 
to in effect promote the latent 

80
00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:40,960
agenda. 
The the ideology begins to take 

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00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:43,160
hold as a result of the 
propaganda. 

82
00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:47,280
And then after that you it's no 
longer necessary to keep the 

83
00:05:47,280 --> 00:05:51,800
agenda late latent. 
You can make it patent because 

84
00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:57,480
the ideology has taken hold. 
And then the second sort of 

85
00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:03,280
structural reality of propaganda
is, is, is, is really when, how 

86
00:06:03,280 --> 00:06:05,880
do you, you know an 
identification methods, How do 

87
00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:07,600
you know when you're dealing 
with a scam? 

88
00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:11,520
First of all, you're being told 
it's a, it's a global problem, 

89
00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:17,240
admitting only global solutions 
in the, in the amid suppression 

90
00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:18,960
of dissent, those three 
elements. 

91
00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:22,560
And I just showed how those 
elements were all present for 

92
00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:26,680
all three of the scams of COVID,
climate change and the saturated

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fats hypothesis. 
And the audience reaction was 

94
00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:33,200
really interesting. 
There were, there was a divided 

95
00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,720
story. 
Amongst the audience were 

96
00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:38,760
doctors who simply did not want 
to accept the idea that there 

97
00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,640
was no COVID pandemic. 
They saw the sick people, their 

98
00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,920
their colleagues had patients 
dying in hospital. 

99
00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:49,960
And but the difference is here I
am at a live event and there's a

100
00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:51,760
lunch and there's a tea and so 
on. 

101
00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:57,840
So I can sit there sort of doing
the, the Socratic method on 

102
00:06:57,840 --> 00:06:59,600
these people, you know, asking 
them questions. 

103
00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:03,200
So how do you know, how did your
colleague know what the patient 

104
00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:07,360
was dying from? 
And they would say, oh, there's 

105
00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:09,800
a PCR test or whatever and and 
so on. 

106
00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:14,600
So it affords the opportunity 
now to, to do this, conduct this

107
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kind of dialogue. 
And, and what I noticed is that 

108
00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:20,400
the, the light bulb people were 
not running away. 

109
00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:24,520
When, for example, I presented 
at the actuarial convention in 

110
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2023, people literally ran away.
They were, they couldn't face 

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00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:31,200
it, they couldn't discuss it. 
It was just outside of their 

112
00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:33,160
bandwidth. 
And it wasn't that they were, 

113
00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:35,520
they thought it was boring or 
uninteresting or that they were 

114
00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:38,560
just so offended by it, you 
know, no, they were afraid to 

115
00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:40,840
discuss it. 
It challenged too many of their 

116
00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:43,920
beliefs. 
Why would they be afraid? 

117
00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:45,760
Because that's a psychological 
issue. 

118
00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:54,800
It's very interesting, I think 
that at, at a certain level 

119
00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:58,880
people have awareness of the 
shallowness of their own 

120
00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:03,640
thinking, that they've just 
adopted a set of principles, A 

121
00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:09,320
mantra, A dogma, without ever 
having understood it. 

122
00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:16,440
And so they're, they, they're 
intuitively fearful of any 

123
00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:21,240
analysis of the axioms of that, 
that dogmatic structure. 

124
00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:28,520
Then I think also they're 
fearful of being seen to indulge

125
00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:34,080
something that is the antithesis
of that dogmatic, that dogmatic 

126
00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:36,440
structure. 
Because their reason for 

127
00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:41,240
adhering to the dogmatic 
structure is to stay in with an 

128
00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:49,040
in Group to to maintain social 
credit with a crowd of people 

129
00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:55,440
for whom tribal membership is 
tightly associated with signing 

130
00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:59,520
up to the dogmatic structure. 
And so it and that that 

131
00:08:59,960 --> 00:09:06,320
elaborates the fear because they
they find themselves first of 

132
00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:10,760
all, not at all convinced of 
their own ability to defend the 

133
00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:15,720
dogmatic structure. 
And secondly, painfully aware 

134
00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:20,440
that just being seen to indulge 
the dissident might be a strong 

135
00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:24,040
enough signal to their community
that they're not actually part 

136
00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:29,280
of the in Group, and so they 
risk excommunication from a 

137
00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:31,240
structure that they somehow 
depend upon. 

138
00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:36,120
But that basically echoes what 
Nassim Taleb has written about 

139
00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:39,760
extensively in terms of risk 
analysis and skin in the game. 

140
00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:46,760
In other words, in In other 
words, like Tim Noakes has lots 

141
00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:50,400
of skin in the game and ran huge
risks by doing U turns on some 

142
00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:52,560
of his on some of his scientific
views. 

143
00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:54,840
Yes. 
And, and, you know, the the 

144
00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:57,040
interesting thing about him is 
he's a man of such character 

145
00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:59,640
that, you know, he didn't pause 
the moment he realized that he 

146
00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:03,240
made a mistake or that he that a
better explanation was in view. 

147
00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,040
I don't think, yeah, I don't 
think he's the type of person 

148
00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:09,040
who had to agonize late at night
over what he was giving up. 

149
00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:14,400
I think he just moved on and 
that's why part of the reason 

150
00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:16,440
why I have such admiration for 
him. 

151
00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:20,200
I also have to give a disclaimer
because whenever I talk about 

152
00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:24,120
Nassim Taleb, as much as I like 
his work, he got covered. 

153
00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:27,600
Completely wrong. 
He got everything wrong on COVID

154
00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:30,280
and we haven't heard much from 
him since, have we? 

155
00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:32,480
No, I think, I think there's a 
degree. 

156
00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:35,000
Well, he blocked me. 
What's that? 

157
00:10:35,560 --> 00:10:37,040
He blocked me. 
I wanted to talk to you. 

158
00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:39,720
As well. 
Yeah, for a fairly, fairly 

159
00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:43,280
innocuous question. 
But the second presentation was 

160
00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:47,080
that was even more interesting. 
So another person who I greatly 

161
00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:52,000
admire is is Leon Lowe, who 
established the the Free Market 

162
00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:56,600
Foundation in South Africa some 
40 or 50 years ago. 

163
00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:01,320
He also was a courageously 
independent voice during the the

164
00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:05,920
the COVID phenomenon. 
I was invited to address the 

165
00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:13,200
40th annual libertarian seminar 
Lib SIM in Cape Town alongside 

166
00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:16,520
some luminaries. 
I mean, Rand Paul was addressing

167
00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,800
the audience and Thomas Massie 
was there, you know, physically 

168
00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:24,200
present, also speaking. 
I had a delightful dinner with 

169
00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:26,240
him, by the way. 
But what a wonderful man. 

170
00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:37,240
And I, I was asked to, you know,
to speak about how to, how to 

171
00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:41,480
sort of catch the lives of 
mainstream media or what to do 

172
00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:43,520
about mainstream media nonsense 
or something. 

173
00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:47,120
I can't remember the actual 
title, but I decided to give it 

174
00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:55,280
a no holds barred kind of talk. 
And I went in informing the 

175
00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:59,120
audience about Operation Gladio.
You know, this, this whole 

176
00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:04,880
business of the, the, the 
Americans having left 10,000 or 

177
00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:07,360
something or more. 
Maybe there's even 20,000. 

178
00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:10,160
It's the largest. 
Did you know it's the largest 

179
00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:13,720
covert operation in history? 
The largest covert operation in 

180
00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:16,920
history and and possibly the 
largest terrorist operation in 

181
00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:21,160
history and longest anyway. 
So they leave these operatives 

182
00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:29,400
in Europe and proceed to create 
a series of destabilization and 

183
00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:32,960
terror events, including 
assassinations of sitting 

184
00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:39,520
presidents or a sitting 
president over the course of 

185
00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:44,120
some 42 years before the before 
the organization is sort of 

186
00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:48,080
altered in courts and the media.
And George Bush senior, the 

187
00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:51,560
former head of the CIA, which 
supervened over Operation 

188
00:12:51,560 --> 00:12:57,680
Gladio, It was basically forced 
onto the stage to at least to 

189
00:12:57,680 --> 00:13:01,720
nominally shut it down. 
By which time of course, the 

190
00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:05,920
entire thing was operate, was 
still operating under the guise 

191
00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:10,520
of these NGOs like USAID and the
National Endowment for 

192
00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:12,520
Democracy. 
So they really had no need for a

193
00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,920
formal CIA structure, an illegal
CIA structure. 

194
00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:21,920
But I went on from Operation 
Gladio to then discuss the 

195
00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:25,360
phenomenon of the colour 
revolution and, and, and its 

196
00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:29,680
frequency and how these are 
propagated around the world. 

197
00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:36,280
And I really gave it horns. 
Now, I, I would have expected 

198
00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:40,800
three years ago for people in 
that kind of audience to 

199
00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:44,320
completely switch off. 
Yeah, conspiracy theorists, 

200
00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:46,240
blah, blah, blah, all those 
stupid kind of comments, you 

201
00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:53,880
know, but not only did they not 
turn off, but, but in the 

202
00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:56,920
audience vote for best speaker, 
I won hands down. 

203
00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,320
So, so I was, and I was 
completely taken aback. 

204
00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:04,600
I, I, I decided that I didn't 
care and I was going to actually

205
00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:08,200
get up there and just go, go for
it and expecting a little bit of

206
00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:09,920
complaint and retribution and 
whatever. 

207
00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:13,000
But what I got was the opposite.
The audience loved it, lapped it

208
00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:15,600
up and spoke to me in detail 
afterwards. 

209
00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:18,680
Wanted to understand more about 
kind of revolutions and how they

210
00:14:18,680 --> 00:14:20,320
articulated. 
Do you think we've had one in 

211
00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:22,840
South Africa? 
Do we have S Africans who sit on

212
00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:25,800
some of these committees, you 
know, like the Ned in South 

213
00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:29,360
Africa and so on? 
So, and and that was a pleasant 

214
00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:34,440
surprise for me in the, in the, 
in the sort of the, the days 

215
00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:38,080
after the seminar, I ended up 
having an informal dinner party 

216
00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:41,040
at my house with some of the 
other speakers and, and with 

217
00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,160
Leon. 
No, who who, by the way, has 

218
00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:44,160
just. 
Yeah. 

219
00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:45,920
Thanks for the invite, Nick. 
Thanks. 

220
00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:53,040
Yeah, just completed his his his
biography working with is it Tom

221
00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:59,040
Cohen or Tim Cohen? 
And, and, and I've just started 

222
00:14:59,040 --> 00:14:59,960
reading that. 
It's a good read. 

223
00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:02,840
He has had a very interesting 
life and met very interesting 

224
00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:04,880
people along the way. 
Yeah. 

225
00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:07,800
So I'd recommend that. 
So let me tell you something 

226
00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:10,360
about I noticed something very 
funny for the first time. 

227
00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:14,960
I mean, I, I sort of consider 
myself to have made it a a bit 

228
00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:17,720
of a sort of sideline activity 
to disabuse people of 

229
00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:21,360
libertarianism. 
And I say that somewhat tongue 

230
00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:23,400
in cheek. 
But what I noticed at this 

231
00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:27,600
seminar is if you tell, tell, 
tell some a libertarian that you

232
00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:30,640
are a libertarian, it'll take 
them 5 minutes to for them to 

233
00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:32,560
tell you that you're not a real 
libertarian. 

234
00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:35,680
Yes. 
And, and, and if you tell them 

235
00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:39,720
that you're not a libertarian, 
it'll take them 5 minutes before

236
00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:41,480
they tell you you actually are 
one. 

237
00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:49,440
So it's it's a very amusing 
thing, But but yes, I mean, 

238
00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:53,600
libertarians for the most part 
were a complete no show in in 

239
00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:54,760
COVID skepticism. 
Yeah. 

240
00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:57,440
Shocked they all got ejected 
like every libertarian 

241
00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:00,000
self-described libertarian I 
know got a vaccine. 

242
00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:03,680
I know it's completely, 
completely stupid and, and, and 

243
00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,160
also just missed the idea. 
This was the ultimate sort of 

244
00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:13,800
authoritarian surveillance state
move, erosion of civil liberties

245
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:17,960
and and independence and the the
sovereign individual, you know, 

246
00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,080
it's never come bigger than this
on such a scale. 

247
00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:25,720
And there so many of them just 
capitulated, went alone. 

248
00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:28,360
It's the power of fear, Jim. 
It's the power of fear. 

249
00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:32,720
Yes, I had a conversation with 
Libertarian. 

250
00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:38,320
I won't mention his name because
both you and I know him and he 

251
00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:42,600
always talks about going against
the state and, you know, not 

252
00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:45,200
trusting the government. 
But he got injected. 

253
00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:47,600
And I said I said to him, but 
that's the ultimate trust in the

254
00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:50,080
government because it was the 
government that told you that 

255
00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:53,160
there was this there was this 
deadly pandemic. 

256
00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:57,320
Yeah. 
What did he say? 

257
00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:01,240
Well, it's it's the typical. 
Well, it's about choice. 

258
00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:05,680
So yeah, you see, that's the 
argument that that I think fails

259
00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:09,680
miserably. 
Yeah, No, you needed to spot the

260
00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:13,359
intrusion and fight it on all 
fronts and not say I'm going to 

261
00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:15,240
selectively participate. 
I mean, that's. 

262
00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:16,640
Absolutely. 
Because that's, but that's the 

263
00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:17,960
point. 
That's that's what you've been 

264
00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:20,200
talking about is, is 
propagandizing. 

265
00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:22,720
So in other words, you think 
you're making a choice, but you 

266
00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,079
actually aren't. 
Yeah, yeah. 

267
00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:32,680
Also, recently I've I've noticed
at long last there seems to be 

268
00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:36,200
more and more people coming 
around to the idea not merely 

269
00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:39,320
that we should have all been 
skeptical about the the COVID 

270
00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:43,000
phenomenon, but but coming 
around to the idea that there 

271
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,280
was in fact no pandemic of any 
sort whatsoever. 

272
00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:55,520
I have for many years now, since
October 2020, felt rather alone 

273
00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:01,440
in in holding that view that 
there was no pandemic at all. 

274
00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:08,120
But and and over the next, I 
would say four years, the rate 

275
00:18:08,120 --> 00:18:14,840
at which people adhere to that 
view join joining the minority 

276
00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:18,000
who who hold it was was 
painfully slow. 

277
00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:22,840
But what I've noticed in the 
last couple of months is a much 

278
00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:28,680
greater willingness among let's 
just say more normally people to

279
00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:33,560
to entertain the perspective. 
And I think that's that signals 

280
00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:35,080
something. 
I think it's very important. 

281
00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:37,920
But it goes so much further than
that though. 

282
00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:42,160
I mean, COVID was a placeholder 
sustainable development. 

283
00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,280
That's it, that everything falls
under that category. 

284
00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:46,840
I. 
I would say sustainable 

285
00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:49,560
development supervenes of 
pandemics and climate. 

286
00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:54,160
The the thing about the 
Sustainable development goals is

287
00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:59,240
is, you know, did on on as 
discreet goals one at a time. 

288
00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:03,200
More of the goal is probably 
something that almost everybody 

289
00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:07,520
would sign up to because they're
they're quite aridine bland 

290
00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:10,680
statements. 
But the, the problem of 

291
00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:17,520
bestowing upon a highly 
centralized grouping of people 

292
00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:21,320
like the United Nations and the 
people who supervene over them, 

293
00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:26,440
the ability to decide how you 
would go about satisfying this 

294
00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:34,120
panoply of, of feel good 
ambitions is that and, and, and 

295
00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:38,120
particularly when you frame 
those ambitions with absolutely 

296
00:19:38,120 --> 00:19:43,840
no attempt to provide a, a, a 
framework of trade off and with 

297
00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:47,680
no attempt to prove that those 
are exhaustive ambitions, that 

298
00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:49,680
there shouldn't be any other 
ambitions in life. 

299
00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:54,440
So you provide a powerful group 
of people with this list, no 

300
00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:58,640
basis for trade off and no 
obligation to consider where 

301
00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:02,040
there aren't other things that 
we should value is that they can

302
00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:04,680
then basically do whatever the 
hell they want. 

303
00:20:05,360 --> 00:20:08,400
And they do. 
And what they want is not those 

304
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:10,680
goals. 
What they want is control. 

305
00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:15,400
And, and this ultimate sort of 
technocratic surveillance state.

306
00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:17,920
They've been aiming for it for 
more than 100 years. 

307
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:22,720
And so, and, and what they will 
do is couch every policy 

308
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:27,120
statement and determination in 
the wordings or of of one or 

309
00:20:27,120 --> 00:20:29,920
another of these strategic 
development goals. 

310
00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:33,280
And that provides the ethical 
justification for what they're 

311
00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:35,800
doing. 
And so the whole framework 

312
00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:41,280
becomes essentially evil. 
But I, I, I hold people in 

313
00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:46,320
absolute contempt who wear that 
little SDG lapel badge. 

314
00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:51,440
I mean, this is you. 
You are confessing to, you know,

315
00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:58,800
a pathological level of 
stupidity and a complete void 

316
00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:03,560
when it comes to ethical nuance 
when you wear that lapel. 

317
00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,440
Bill Gates a few years ago 
actually said in an interview 

318
00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:13,240
the four major invisible enemies
of humanity. 

319
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:16,840
I mean, he said. 
He said it like this are climate

320
00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:21,240
change, pandemics, AI and 
nuclear war. 

321
00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:22,520
OK. 
Yeah, I want to come. 

322
00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:24,680
You raise a good point. 
I want to come back to it, but 

323
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:28,160
it just struck me that I want to
highlight as a sort of a 

324
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:32,640
structural play that's rolled 
out in several domains. 

325
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:38,000
So, so I pointed to the the SDGS
lacking a coherent trade off 

326
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:40,360
framework. 
And you see you have this mult, 

327
00:21:40,360 --> 00:21:44,240
this complex of goals and, and 
nowhere to, to say which, which 

328
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:47,160
is more important than the next.
And, and no way to determine 

329
00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,440
whether it's exhaustive. 
If you move over into the 

330
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,440
corporate world, a construct 
that I've railed against for 

331
00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,600
many years is that of 
stakeholder capitalism. 

332
00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,760
And the idea there is that you 
can't manage a company for its 

333
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:02,240
owners. 
No, there are other 

334
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:03,800
stakeholders. 
You need to take them into 

335
00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:08,040
account quietly ignoring the 
fact that in order to increase 

336
00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,640
the value of a company, you need
to look at a look after a 

337
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:14,400
multitude of stakeholders, you 
know, so for example, if you're,

338
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,000
if you want to increase the 
value of the company, one 

339
00:22:18,360 --> 00:22:22,120
important way of doing so is to 
increase the company's revenues.

340
00:22:22,120 --> 00:22:24,160
Well, you can't increase its 
revenues and there's there more 

341
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:27,040
people out there who want its 
products. 

342
00:22:27,360 --> 00:22:30,400
And that means you're satisfying
you, you have a, you know, an 

343
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:34,080
objective of satisfying a 
growing number of customers 

344
00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:39,560
along the way. 
And so, so there's this 

345
00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:41,560
construct called stakeholder 
capitalism. 

346
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:46,120
And it too now poses that that 
you need to take into 

347
00:22:46,120 --> 00:22:48,480
consideration multiple 
stakeholders. 

348
00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:52,680
But once again, it does so while
providing no basis for trading 

349
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:56,240
off the interests of 1 
stakeholder versus another and 

350
00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:00,360
no basis for determining whether
you've got an exhaustive list of

351
00:23:00,360 --> 00:23:04,120
stakeholders. 
So you have the same story again

352
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:09,600
and then another one in the 
corporate world, ESG, which 

353
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:15,400
which stands for what's it 
environmental, social and 

354
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:19,360
governance reporting as opposed 
to just financial reporting. 

355
00:23:19,360 --> 00:23:21,920
You must now report under these 
other categories. 

356
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:27,040
But once again, it's it's now, 
you know, increasing the number 

357
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:34,920
of objective functions, but not 
telling you how many brownie 

358
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,160
points for environment you must 
trade or for how many financial 

359
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:40,480
points. 
Another 1D EI. 

360
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,840
Oh no, we, we need to show that 
as a corporate citizen, we are 

361
00:23:44,120 --> 00:23:47,560
attending to DEI on ADEI 
scorecard. 

362
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,440
And what's that? 
Diversity, equity and and 

363
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,400
inclusivity. 
OK, but once again, so we got 

364
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:57,360
all these objectives, but 
exactly how many white lesbian 

365
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:04,400
HR managers should I trade off 
for black male mine workers? 

366
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,360
You know what, what, what is the
framework? 

367
00:24:07,360 --> 00:24:11,240
What's actually being said here?
And, and so it's a manatee of 

368
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:16,440
our times that we allow people 
to insert these measurement 

369
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,760
frameworks and and and objective
functions all over the place 

370
00:24:20,120 --> 00:24:23,160
whilst providing no coherent 
framework for trading them off. 

371
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,360
I believe if you forced them to 
do that, then the ludicrous 

372
00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:32,880
nature of these structures would
become rapidly apparent and 

373
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:35,720
they'd be far less destructive 
than they are. 

374
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:40,720
Invisible enemies is a, is a, is
a very old theme. 

375
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:47,200
You know, it it it's of course 
he states it a little bit 

376
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:51,520
strongly because whenever 
another person is being othered 

377
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,960
or scapegoated in any kind of 
way, you're actually creating an

378
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,720
invisible enemy because the 
other in process involves 

379
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:04,720
creating a false image of that 
that person or grouping of 

380
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,640
people. 
So you create an enemy that 

381
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:11,440
doesn't exist. 
So, and I think people do that 

382
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:15,440
all the time when they're trying
to motivate populations to do 

383
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:17,720
things that are not in fact in 
their best interests. 

384
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:25,000
But we saw when in 1972 or 90, 
sorry, 1972 or 74, I'm not sure,

385
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,760
Club of Rome document where they
where they say, look, we came 

386
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,160
across this idea of sort of 
using invisible threats because 

387
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,120
creating real threats is too 
expensive and practically 

388
00:25:34,120 --> 00:25:36,480
difficult. 
So what we'll do is we'll focus 

389
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:38,760
on invisible threats. 
And two very good invisible 

390
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:43,720
threats are the threat of a 
deadly pathogen and the effect 

391
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,720
of a change in the weather. 
So, so the, the scam has its 

392
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:49,840
roots there. 
And it's, it's, it's all very 

393
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,680
transparent. 
When you go back 50 years and 

394
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:56,760
read all this, what the origins 
of the the supposed climate 

395
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,880
crisis, where it's impossible 
not to conclude that all the 

396
00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:02,040
work that's ever been done on 
the greenhouse effect or 

397
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,800
whatever they want to call it 
is, is complete fraud. 

398
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,720
But it does make you question 
then if any of those enemies 

399
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:10,640
which are invisible are in fact 
real. 

400
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:17,960
Exactly. 
I mean, but, but the process of 

401
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:22,800
othering is, is an older one 
and, and, and that has very 

402
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,800
tangible effects. 
And I just see all the time I'm,

403
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,600
I've been dragged onto a number 
of, you know, social media 

404
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:30,440
boards, WhatsApp groups and that
kind of thing. 

405
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,520
And the one group, there's this 
woman who was quite transparent 

406
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,200
in terms of her, well, quite 
perceptive in her ability to see

407
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,440
through the COVID thing, but 
seems to have fallen for every 

408
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:45,960
single scam since, you know, 
she's very quick to post all the

409
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:47,680
terrible things that these 
Muslims do. 

410
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:52,040
You know, they're, they're so, 
they're so cruel and they, they 

411
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:53,880
hate women and they're this, 
this and the next thing. 

412
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:59,200
And whilst they must be there, 
there, there is clearly an 

413
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:04,720
element of truth in underlying 
these kind of othering tactics. 

414
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:10,600
The image that they foster is 
one that's completely divorced 

415
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:12,320
from the reality. 
Yeah. 

416
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:17,840
And I'm not somebody who is an 
advocate of multi ethnicity or 

417
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:22,520
what, what is it called 
diversity on as as defined by 

418
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:24,840
the work powers that be? 
I I think it's actually a, a 

419
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:26,800
very dangerous thing. 
It's something you want to try 

420
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:33,320
and avoid, but it's not because 
I have animosity towards other 

421
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,400
groups. 
I just recognize there are 

422
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,160
differences. 
I think that from a evolutionary

423
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,600
perspective, it's extremely 
healthy to have different groups

424
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:43,040
of people believing, well, 
animals. 

425
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:44,960
Do it. 
Animals do it naturally. 

426
00:27:45,120 --> 00:27:47,000
Yeah. 
So I want there to be other 

427
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,120
religions and I want there to be
other political perspectives and

428
00:27:50,120 --> 00:27:53,920
other cultural modes and other 
languages and other value 

429
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:55,520
systems. 
I think that's healthy. 

430
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:59,560
It's it, it, it creates anti 
fragility in the human 

431
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:07,560
population overall, but it's 
just very sad to see how easily 

432
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:12,480
manipulated people are because 
this kind of othering is not 

433
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,400
organic. 
There's a there's an effort, you

434
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,840
know, at at a certain level in a
power structure, there's an 

435
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:23,960
effort to create polarization 
amongst the the laptop classes, 

436
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:28,520
for example, in order to 
distract their attention from 

437
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,880
the evil plans that are under 
way at their behest. 

438
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:35,720
And it's horrible to see it 
being effective. 

439
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,640
I mentioned colour revolutions 
earlier on. 

440
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:43,480
OK, now I recently I was 
listening to podcast. 

441
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:45,840
I don't know if you've come 
across EM Burlingham. 

442
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,040
He was on my show. 
Oh, was he OK? 

443
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,440
Well, then I knew that James 
Denningpole had interviewed him.

444
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:55,720
But, but, but he raised an 
interesting point. 

445
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,280
He, he said that he, he thought 
and, and I, I'll apologise in 

446
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,560
advance if I paraphrase him 
incorrectly, but he thought that

447
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:12,000
the CCC PS objective in 
asserting centralized control in

448
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:16,760
certain domains was very likely 
wrapped up in their desire to 

449
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:21,840
avoid a color revolution. 
Because this is what the Anglo 

450
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:25,520
American establishment does it 
it basically undermines every 

451
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:32,320
single potential power block on 
earth by periodically conducting

452
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,160
color revolutions. 
And the the the Chinese know 

453
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,400
that that's the case and that 
they have to set up their 

454
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,320
country to avoid that at all 
costs. 

455
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,560
And in order to do that, they 
need an element of control of 

456
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:49,240
information flow over narratives
of people movement. 

457
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:55,560
And in order to wage a 
relentless war against the would

458
00:29:55,560 --> 00:30:00,920
be color revolutionaries. 
And to an extent, Russia has had

459
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,600
to do the same. 
And, and that raises the 

460
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:10,880
question of, well, OK, so the 
fight against the, the the Anglo

461
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:14,480
American establishment actually 
forces you into a political 

462
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:18,880
structure that has authoritarian
elements, which the Anglo 

463
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:23,000
American establishment then 
turns against you by calling you

464
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,520
authoritarian, by calling you 
draconian, by accusing you of 

465
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,840
wig your genocides, communism, 
whatever. 

466
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,640
I mean, it's actually very 
difficult to to see communism in

467
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:36,880
China. 
It's impossible to see it and 

468
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:40,200
and people need to also go to 
Xinjiang, for example, to 

469
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:43,840
understand the the political 
issue. 

470
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,320
I mean that province, without 
getting into the discussion 

471
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,760
about that, but that province 
borders Afghanistan, Pakistan 

472
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,880
and a bunch of other areas that 
are targeted. 

473
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:55,800
Silk Road, Yes. 
Right. 

474
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,240
Yes, but people don't understand
you once you. 

475
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,440
Go to Urumqi. 
Yes, a few times. 

476
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,240
The grads are all study. 
Fascinating place. 

477
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:09,800
Delicious food, I'll tell you 
that. 

478
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:11,520
I believe so. 
Very. 

479
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:13,840
So, yeah. 
Very, very, very nice food. 

480
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:20,400
Yeah, but but you know, there I 
I think the the gap between 

481
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:24,920
Western perceptions and and and 
reality on the ground seems to 

482
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,760
me to be vast. 
I mean, you used the word 

483
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:29,520
earlier framework and I think 
this is really, really 

484
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:32,560
important. 
I was chatting to Zoe Harcombe, 

485
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:35,280
funny enough. 
Yeah, she's great. 

486
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:37,120
Yeah. 
We were just having a chit chat 

487
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:41,680
the other day and and she was 
asking me about do I think that 

488
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:47,560
they are individuals who are in 
these positions of power or is 

489
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:49,680
it actually something bigger 
than that? 

490
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:51,480
And I, and I said, I think it's 
something bigger than that. 

491
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:53,880
It's frameworks. 
It like it doesn't matter if 

492
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,600
Klaus Schwab steps down from the
World Economic Forum. 

493
00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,200
It doesn't matter if you've all 
Harare goes and does something 

494
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,000
else with his life. 
The framework still exists. 

495
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,360
Yes, bad. 
They're bad meme clusters is the

496
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,680
way I like to think of them. 
They're sort of, yeah, I mean, 

497
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:15,400
they do, they do attain the 
level of highly sophisticated 

498
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,680
and complex frameworks. 
And you can see these written 

499
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,080
down and and agglomerating over 
time. 

500
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:27,640
And they are consistent families
that are involved, but tends not

501
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:32,120
to go beyond, you know, 456 in 
the extreme generations. 

502
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,680
So there's some continuity. 
I sometimes wonder what they put

503
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:39,840
in the Rothschild drink, 
drinking water that that such 

504
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:44,360
truly terrible ideas and ethical
values persist with such 

505
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:46,880
fidelity over so many 
generations. 

506
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,200
But, and you can say the same 
for the Rockefellers. 

507
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:55,360
But, but in general, I mean by 
the time you get to the 4th 

508
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:57,120
generation, you are dealing with
an idiot. 

509
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,960
You know, the idiot grandson or 
great grandson comes to the fore

510
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,720
and messes everything up. 
That's that's a pretty reliable 

511
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,840
pattern. 
But but I mean just sorry on 

512
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,480
this, someone said to me the 
other day, but why is nobody 

513
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,720
going after Fauci? 
But Fauci is just a he's just a 

514
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,400
pawn on on the chess. 
Board, it's just. 

515
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:18,360
A waste of time. 
He didn't. 

516
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:20,440
He didn't actually. 
I mean, I'm not defending Fauci.

517
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:24,760
He's he, he was involved in the 
HIV scam in the 80s, but he 

518
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:26,600
didn't actually do anything 
during COVID. 

519
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:28,880
He just told people to wear 
mosques. 

520
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:31,280
And take shots. 
Yeah. 

521
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:34,360
No, I'd agree with that. 
I mean, he's just a bit player. 

522
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:39,320
Nasty piece of work to be sure. 
But everybody who thinks that, 

523
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,600
oh, the important thing here is 
to prosecute to Fauci, you know,

524
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,760
and if you did, because he's the
kingpin and he organised all of 

525
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:50,400
this, I mean, that's such an 
immature view because it's not 

526
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,320
even close to the truth. 
And what would you be achieving?

527
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:55,600
And Nuremberg trials must do 
Nuremberg trials. 

528
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,640
You know it. 
Yeah. 

529
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:03,680
It's a bit comical really. 
But I've lost the the track here

530
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:07,120
where I know you were talking 
about it. 

531
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,520
It's not so much that there's 
the same people or continuity of

532
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:14,639
families or an organization over
time as, as it is about a 

533
00:34:14,639 --> 00:34:17,080
framework. 
And I said maybe even like 

534
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:19,520
something less than that, like a
meme cluster. 

535
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,880
Yes, I, I think that's the case.
And, and so the, there's almost 

536
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:27,280
like you, you could call it 
another, another way of 

537
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:30,480
referencing it would be to call 
it an ideological battle. 

538
00:34:30,639 --> 00:34:34,719
You know, the case for the 
sovereign individual versus the 

539
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:40,239
case for feudalism or a kind of 
collectivism. 

540
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:49,280
And, and I, I think that that 
that's, that's probably a more 

541
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:51,960
useful way of, of, of looking at
things. 

542
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:57,120
It, it sometimes comes down to 
psychological features as well. 

543
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,680
I was engaged in a discussion 
with an economist the other day.

544
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:06,120
And what it's often just 
absolutely annoys me and, and 

545
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:10,000
deflates me about economists is 
that the field tends to attract 

546
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:14,080
these, these very systematized 
thinkers, linear thinkers. 

547
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:17,240
And, and so they, they want to 
believe that, you know, if they 

548
00:35:17,240 --> 00:35:19,840
were in charge, it would be very
easy to get the country to full 

549
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,320
employment or to increase living
standards or something like 

550
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,080
this, Because all you have to do
is just put more resources 

551
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:28,840
behind this project and, you 
know, put more money there and, 

552
00:35:29,240 --> 00:35:32,600
and build this bigger or, or, 
or, or employ these people in 

553
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:35,880
the government sector. 
And then they would be able to 

554
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:37,920
work in the hospitals and 
everybody would be able to get 

555
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:39,840
healthcare. 
And that would create a circular

556
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,240
flow and the economy would grow 
and it would flourish. 

557
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,160
They talk about these systems as
if they're sort of just going to

558
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:49,880
be implemented by Fiat. 
And in the conversation with 

559
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,840
him, I, I, I said to him, you 
know, it, it's, that is not just

560
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:55,640
wrong, it's, it's not even 
wrong. 

561
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,400
It's so far from reality. 
I said, I describe to him what 

562
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:04,160
happens when I invest in a 
business and that business does 

563
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,800
well and it grows 100%. 
So it double s in size. 

564
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:12,640
Well, when it double s in size, 
it delivers to me the most 

565
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:19,400
complex set of, of problems that
need to be resolved by 

566
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:23,720
painstaking and complex 
structural adjustment. 

567
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,400
You have to repurpose the 
organization. 

568
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,600
And I, I don't really like that 
term repurpose because you, you 

569
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,720
have to redesign the 
organization in such fundamental

570
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,720
ways. 
And the process of implementing 

571
00:36:36,720 --> 00:36:42,920
that new design is so perilous, 
economically perilous, and that 

572
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,040
it takes decades to learn how to
do that properly. 

573
00:36:47,720 --> 00:36:51,120
And that's just at the level of 
one fairly small company that 

574
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:56,360
you're trying to take from $100 
million of revenue to $250 

575
00:36:56,360 --> 00:37:02,080
million of revenue or whatever. 
That process is astonishingly 

576
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:06,880
different. 
And so I, I, I, I said the, I 

577
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,600
said to the guy, you know, look,
you can't just scale 

578
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,040
institutions. 
You can't just take a small 

579
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:15,480
institution and keep all its 
structures and hierarchies the 

580
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:21,160
same and blow it up, you know, 
expand it. 

581
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:26,920
That will lead to disaster. 
So, so organizational structure 

582
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:31,200
both in economics and in 
commerce and indeed in in 

583
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:38,920
politics is not scale invariant.
You've got to change the nature 

584
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:44,240
of the organization as it grows.
Decentralization becomes a more 

585
00:37:44,240 --> 00:37:47,640
important thing and a harder and
harder thing to deal with as 

586
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:52,800
organizational scale increases 
because you want to make sure 

587
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:58,440
that decisions are being made on
the periphery and as close to 

588
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:01,760
the, the relevant information as
possible by people who are 

589
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,720
understanding that aerial, that 
segment of your target market. 

590
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:09,000
And, and so and that challenge 
is huge. 

591
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:15,080
It's very hard. 
And, and what invariably happens

592
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:21,960
is, is that despite gallant 
efforts to, to bring, to bear 

593
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:27,120
such decentralization and 
subsidiarity in organizational 

594
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:31,160
design, companies invariably 
fail along the way. 

595
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:33,760
And you end up with this 
situation where almost no 

596
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,040
innovation takes place at large 
corporations. 

597
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:40,800
You know, they're taking the, 
the my observation to an extreme

598
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:44,200
level or, or, or they're 
there's, they're suffering from 

599
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:48,040
what I'm observing at an extreme
level in the sense that they're,

600
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:50,720
they're trying to radically 
centralized things on a global 

601
00:38:50,720 --> 00:38:53,520
level and to cast a single 
framework that's assessed at a 

602
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:56,280
central location. 
All the trade-offs are 

603
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,000
determined at a central location
where all the ethical frameworks

604
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:01,800
are set and globalized and 
universalized. 

605
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,880
As I've always said, very 
consistently said that that 

606
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,880
aspiration is destined for 
failure. 

607
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:13,160
It is doomed before they're out 
of the starting blocks and it's 

608
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:16,760
not solved by AI or data 
availability or speed of 

609
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:18,840
processing information or 
anything like that. 

610
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:21,800
It's a doomed project. 
It's. 

611
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:24,240
Irony, though, is that it keeps 
going. 

612
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:30,200
Yes, because there's always 
there's a ready supply of linear

613
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:35,600
thinking idiots, systematizers, 
people who have no appreciation 

614
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:39,440
for complexity or from this, 
this very fundamental problem 

615
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:44,560
that optimal organizational 
design is scale variant. 

616
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,920
As you change scale, what's 
optimal changes? 

617
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:54,480
And part of that is very, very 
much based on modeling, isn't 

618
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:55,640
it? 
Are you spoken about this in the

619
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:57,560
past? 
And this is precisely how how 

620
00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:00,280
the climate change scan works 
and virology. 

621
00:40:02,720 --> 00:40:04,960
Yeah, absolutely. 
And yeah. 

622
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:11,560
And the models have limited 
value. 

623
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:15,040
You know, when if you're 
building a bridge, you would be 

624
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:17,600
quite nice to have a little bit 
of a model of load bearing and 

625
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:19,240
that kind of thing. 
You know you'd want to have some

626
00:40:19,240 --> 00:40:23,680
of that if you're. 
Yeah, but you can see the 

627
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,000
results. 
So in other words, if your if 

628
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:30,320
your model complex. 
Yeah, but as soon as you get up 

629
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,920
to more complex phenomena, 
modelling is completely useless.

630
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:39,520
And and in fact, it's dangerous 
because it gives people overly 

631
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:44,080
simplistic picture of how things
are and and they start making 

632
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:46,880
decisions as if they're 
operating in a simple framework.

633
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:48,840
And the COVID models were a 
wonderful thing. 

634
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:51,600
You know, there's, they're, 
those are extremely simple 

635
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:57,120
models with like 3 parameters, 
you know, to model this whole 

636
00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:59,480
complex scenario. 
And, and I think all we got to 

637
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,320
do is control the rate of 
infection, you know, and then we

638
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:05,400
got to do that by locking down. 
Well, what an absurdity, you 

639
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,040
know, so, so too with the 
climate models. 

640
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:11,800
I mean, anybody, I, I, I think 
you should also like, what if 

641
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:15,440
you're going to be a climate 
scientist, you should all, it 

642
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,880
should almost automatically be a
fireable defense offense. 

643
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:23,160
If you, if you build a model, 
because you just, you have no 

644
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:25,440
understanding for your field. 
If you think you can model the 

645
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:33,200
climate usefully, it, you know, 
looking for statistical 

646
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:35,760
regularities and so on is not 
the same thing as building a 

647
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,320
model. 
Noticing that I don't know some 

648
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:42,120
form of solar proximity or solar
flares or whatever affects the 

649
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:44,640
climate is that's a good 
statistical regularity to 

650
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:47,640
observe and then you try and 
understand there was one of the 

651
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:49,920
variables in the system and is 
it dominant. 

652
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,000
I don't know what conditions is 
it dominant and so on. 

653
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,160
And yeah, that that well that's 
useful. 

654
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:59,440
OK, but basically modeling in in
the face of complexity is a is a

655
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:04,640
fool's undertaking. 
The problem is that this 

656
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:07,400
actually applies to a much 
broader category, because 

657
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:11,600
modeling is 1. 
Is is is an instance of 

658
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:17,680
explanation, you know, So within
the broad, the very broad 

659
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:23,320
category explanations of how 
reality works, one subset is a 

660
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:25,760
mathematical model. 
Yeah. 

661
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,840
But the problem we're pointing 
to here is general to 

662
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,520
explanations. 
When faced with complexity, 

663
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:40,160
explanations are likely to be 
hard to come by. 

664
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:48,560
And our response to that is not 
to give up, but to have the 

665
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:53,640
humility to recognize that we 
must address complexity not by 

666
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:58,720
way of grand models and grand 
explanations, but by way of 

667
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:04,320
systematically trialling 
systematic trial and error, by 

668
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:08,080
trying things on the modern 
margin with no grand explanation

669
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:10,400
for whether they'll work or not.
Just try something. 

670
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,240
And does it seem to improve or 
not? 

671
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:17,200
And of course, that's harder to 
do than than than it is to say. 

672
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:21,280
And and there's still a lot of 
danger because something might 

673
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:24,880
appear to work in the short term
but be a disaster in the long 

674
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:26,920
term. 
And how long is the long term? 

675
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:33,840
So but but but yeah. 
Would you say that a lot of 

676
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:40,440
medicine or pharmaceutical 
products are based on modeling? 

677
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:43,400
I'm thinking of of of 
prophylactic type type stuff 

678
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:48,600
like vaccination. 
They, they might have a model 

679
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:50,360
for the benefits. 
I mean, you get these crazy 

680
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:53,720
claims that vaccine, vaccines 
have saved 140 million lives or 

681
00:43:53,720 --> 00:43:55,680
whatever. 
It is absolutely absurd. 

682
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,600
Again, people should be fired 
for attempting to calculate that

683
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:03,400
number. 
But no, it's not so much based 

684
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:06,600
on modelling, it's based on an 
explanation, which is that if 

685
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,600
you introduce the body to a 
pathogen or part of a pathogen 

686
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:14,160
or a tenuated pathogen, that it 
learns how to respond to the 

687
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:17,640
pathogen in a Safeway. 
OK, not an entirely stupid 

688
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:21,960
proposition, but one which has 
never been proven and I I 

689
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:24,640
increasingly suspect it's 
because the immune system 

690
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:28,480
doesn't function as described 
and and pathogens by and large 

691
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:34,640
don't function as described, so 
that the whole intellectual 

692
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:39,760
construct is actually due due 
for defenestration. 

693
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:44,600
So it's definitely based on an 
explanation, not not a model. 

694
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:46,360
But but why were you asking that
question? 

695
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:50,120
Why is that of interest to you? 
The COVID era was driven by 

696
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:52,640
models. 
Who was the guy? 

697
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:57,080
The. 
Main Yeah, yeah, we go. 

698
00:44:57,440 --> 00:44:58,560
Horrible little man. 
No. 

699
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:00,160
Yeah, a stunted intellect as 
well. 

700
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:01,600
I mean, he's stupid. 
They are stupid. 

701
00:45:03,240 --> 00:45:05,600
You know, and then you had, and 
then you had Christian Drosten 

702
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:10,200
with the peace out protocols. 
Yeah, which which were passed 

703
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:13,600
very, very quickly by The Who. 
Yeah. 

704
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:17,840
So that that the yeah, declared 
them the gold standard and yeah.

705
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:21,160
And yeah, we are now we now we 
are. 

706
00:45:21,240 --> 00:45:23,200
We're having impossible 
conversations. 

707
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:27,000
I've been trolling 2 gentlemen 
on Twitter for the last two 

708
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:30,000
weeks. 
Ian Copeland, PHDI think you 

709
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:31,040
might know who he is? 
Let. 

710
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:33,720
Me guess. 
Neil Stone and Neil Stone. 

711
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:39,280
Two obvious Pharmaceutical 
industry Schulz, neither of them

712
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:48,360
very bright and and but just so 
naked in there consistent 

713
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:55,400
rolling out of these shibboleths
of the pharmaceutical edifice. 

714
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:01,680
So you would argue that vaccines
are not really based on on 

715
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:05,000
modelling, because remember, 
they don't use double-blind 

716
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:08,640
trials. 
No, no, I mean that that they do

717
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:11,880
definitely, as I said, try to 
model the benefits of vaccines. 

718
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:14,600
But no, I, I think they're based
on a very bad idea. 

719
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:19,080
You know this this sort of 
notion. 

720
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:22,040
No, actually, they're genius. 
They're genius because you can't

721
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:27,200
ever prove your argument. 
What do you mean you can't? 

722
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:30,360
Say you, you can't say I was 
harmed by a vaccine. 

723
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:32,760
You can't ever actually say it 
because it's, it's a 

724
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:35,840
prophylactic. 
It's it's given to you years in 

725
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:39,680
advance. 
Well, I mean, some people drop 

726
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:41,280
dead the moment they receive a 
vaccine. 

727
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,760
And it's an interesting question
about what about the vaccine is 

728
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:49,560
harming them. 
Yeah, I mean, I'll, I'll OK, 

729
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:56,320
I'll share, share my thoughts. 
To the extent that we have an 

730
00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:00,440
immune system and and pathogens 
are relevant with respect to our

731
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:04,160
health, I think it's important 
to understand that the idea of 

732
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:09,280
injecting the vaccine into the 
blood is, is a is a bad one. 

733
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:11,440
OK. 
So that that's just that whole 

734
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:14,920
category of injected vaccines 
is, is a stupid idea, even 

735
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:18,120
conditioning on there being an 
immune system and there being 

736
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:24,480
pathogens. 
But over and above that, I think

737
00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:28,240
the understanding of the immune 
system and and what it what it 

738
00:47:28,240 --> 00:47:32,720
actually is doing, there's a lot
of scrutiny. 

739
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:37,240
I think, I think what's often 
interpreted as kind of a system 

740
00:47:37,240 --> 00:47:42,000
for dealing with non self 
elements is is is would be 

741
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,320
better understood as a system 
for dealing with toxins, which 

742
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:51,000
which may be self or non self. 
I mean, the idea of toxicity is 

743
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:54,640
is is is an important one to 
understand you because every 

744
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:58,880
single substance that you can 
consume or inject is toxic at 

745
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:01,320
some dose. 
There's a, there's a notion of 

746
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:09,000
a, a thing called the median 
fatal dose, median lethal dose, 

747
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:12,440
MLDI think. 
And so something like coffee, 

748
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:17,160
for example, espresso has a, a 
median lethal dose of about a 

749
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:20,480
litre. 
So if you have 40 shots of the, 

750
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:23,080
of espresso, you've got a 50% 
chance of dying. 

751
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:27,600
I, I forget how many liters of 
water is fatal, but you can 

752
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:31,040
definitely drink fresh water, 
fresh water until you die and 

753
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:33,040
you'll die quite quickly. 
You're from a condition called 

754
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:37,280
hypernatremia. 
So everything is toxic at a 

755
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:41,440
certain dose and a lot of the 
systems in the body are designed

756
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:45,400
to maintain an equilibrium of 
one sort or another. 

757
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:50,840
So the body is full of systems 
that are dealing with excess or,

758
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:56,560
or, or deficiency. 
And I think it, it strikes me 

759
00:48:56,560 --> 00:49:01,720
often that what's described as a
system of dealing with non self 

760
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:05,400
is, is is maybe more tangled up 
with the system of dealing with 

761
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:12,680
disequilibrium. 
And there also this notion of 

762
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:16,000
pathogens as being something 
foreign, something outside the 

763
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:20,120
body that that comes in and then
causes a disequilibrium of some 

764
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:23,760
sort. 
I think that's also ought to be 

765
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:28,520
suspended or, or or not taken as
strongly or as heavily. 

766
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:35,400
I think a lot of these observed 
structures, bacteria and and the

767
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:38,440
like, are in our systems all the
time. 

768
00:49:39,240 --> 00:49:43,520
And when the, the system goes 
into this equilibrium for a 

769
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:49,000
'cause that has nothing to do 
with this, this structure, then 

770
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:52,560
what happens is that the 
structure proliferates and 

771
00:49:52,560 --> 00:50:00,200
people falsely attribute to it 
causality in the, this 

772
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:03,200
equilibrium when they actually 
are consequential to it. 

773
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:10,240
So I, I think both the idea of 
immunology and the idea of 

774
00:50:10,240 --> 00:50:15,960
pathology really require a great
deal of, of scrutiny and, and we

775
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:21,640
should be taking a, a real white
board approach to I, I, I would 

776
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:24,520
even advocate for just just for 
the time being, suspend the term

777
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:29,640
immune system. 
Yeah, well, I mean, it's 

778
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:31,400
effectively just white blood 
cells. 

779
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:36,600
Well, it's, it's, it's a bit of 
different types of cells, yeah. 

780
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:40,200
I remember back. 
In the apparatus. 

781
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:43,920
Yes. 
Well, I remember in 2021 when I 

782
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:45,680
started thinking about this 
whole thing. 

783
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:49,480
Towards the end of 2020, I 
remember asking my wife, do you 

784
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:53,440
think this, any of this is real?
You know, And, and then I, and 

785
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:57,240
then I came across a wonderful 
book written by Ethel Hume 

786
00:50:57,240 --> 00:50:59,720
called Beisha Pasteur or 
Beishamp. 

787
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:04,600
And it was about the two 
contemporaries, Louis Pasteur 

788
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:08,320
and, and, and Tony Beishamp. 
And Beishamp was effectively 

789
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:10,320
arguing what you've just said. 
And that was already in the 

790
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:14,040
1800s, but then the 
Pharmaceutical industry 

791
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:18,600
basically shut him down and went
with the whole Pasteur thing, 

792
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:22,200
which is where we are now. 
Yes, no. 

793
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:24,400
And if you look at Chinese 
medicine, you know that it's, 

794
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:26,280
it's old. 
I mean, it's, it's central 

795
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:29,240
theme. 
Is it, it, it emphasizes 

796
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:35,720
equilibrium, you know, and, and 
is trying to and, and also 

797
00:51:35,720 --> 00:51:38,200
medieval medicine, you know, the
balance of the humors. 

798
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:41,400
That was the, the, the 
temperaments of the humors. 

799
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:48,960
You know, what was it? 
Cholera, spleen, bile, and I'm 

800
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:52,920
forgetting one now. 
Melancholia, I think it was. 

801
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:58,520
But yeah, well, the the idea in 
that medicine, that primitive 

802
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:04,480
medicine was that that you 
needed to keep these in balance,

803
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:07,840
the full temperaments. 
Yes, but that makes so much 

804
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:10,600
sense. 
And The thing is, is that it 

805
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:12,640
makes me realize also that we 
have an impoverished 

806
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:14,600
understanding of health 1000 
years ago. 

807
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:18,480
I, I don't think, I mean the, 
the, the, the popular claim is 

808
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:21,680
people didn't live past age 30. 
I think that's probably largely 

809
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:23,480
bunk. 
That's probably because of wars 

810
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:26,080
and other things. 
But health wise they would have 

811
00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:28,520
been very healthy because they 
didn't, they didn't even have 

812
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:31,840
sugar. 
I mean, you would think then 

813
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:35,560
chronologically today we should 
be immensely healthy. 

814
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:38,600
Nick. 
Yes, well, I guess so. 

815
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:44,040
One of the things that happened 
was in medieval in later Europe,

816
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:47,120
when they've now the, the, the 
one of the things that happened 

817
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:51,240
is the diversity of the diets 
dropped a lot because they, you 

818
00:52:51,240 --> 00:52:53,880
know, they were typically have a
dominant crop or a handful of 

819
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:55,400
dominant crops. 
So they were eating a lot of 

820
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:59,800
grains. 
Diet was not diverse. 

821
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:03,400
I'm a big fan of diversity in 
diet, right? 

822
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:09,240
But, and, and you had these 
conditions like consumption, 

823
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:12,960
tuberculosis. 
Now that's an example of 

824
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:15,680
something. 
I, I, I've heard it said by a 

825
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:18,520
South African, a well to do 
South African pathologist that 

826
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:23,760
he thought that it was probably 
the case that every single South

827
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:28,880
African corpse had at least a 
small tubercular lesion on the 

828
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:32,800
lungs. 
So everybody has, you know, 

829
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:39,400
asymptomatic tuberculosis in 
essence, but that of course, so 

830
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:42,160
only a minority of people 
actually succumb to the disease 

831
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:44,040
or, or, or, or develop the 
disease. 

832
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:50,560
And, and that's a really is, 
that really is a, a, a kind of 

833
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:57,440
combination of the terrain and, 
and the, the pastor's germ 

834
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:00,760
theory, where, where the, the 
germ is there. 

835
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:06,960
But it, it, the germ is a thing,
but it, it plays almost no role 

836
00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:09,840
in the causal structure. 
You need a person who's 

837
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:13,680
malnourished, who doesn't have 
a, a diverse diet. 

838
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:16,840
I never used the term balanced 
diet because that's aligned with

839
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:21,880
the whole USDA framework of food
pyramid that's based on 

840
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:23,840
carbohydrates, which is a very, 
very bad thing. 

841
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:34,440
But, you know, so people who 
have this UN UN diverse diet end

842
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:37,560
up with systems that are on 
disequilibrium and then the 

843
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:43,360
tubercular lesion grows. 
My daughter was killed by one of

844
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:49,760
these things, a bacterium called
Klebsiella pneumonia, which is 

845
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:52,680
often referred to as a hospital 
super bug. 

846
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:58,320
It's when people die from the 
infections, from this this 

847
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:03,000
thing, they often blame 
nosocomial infection, or in 

848
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:06,960
other words, they're blaming the
hospital for poor infection 

849
00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:11,200
control practices. 
But Klebsian and pneumonia 

850
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:15,760
apparently exists in the 
digestive tracts of nearly all 

851
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:18,560
people. 
So what's happening is there's 

852
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:21,600
there's some instance of leaky 
gut is the, is the distal 

853
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:23,880
equilibrium that led my daughter
to be in the hospital in the 

854
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:27,000
first place or the surgery that 
you went through. 

855
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:32,960
Did that cause something that is
meant to be on the immunological

856
00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:36,120
outside, which means inside your
digestive tract. 

857
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:38,600
That's that that from an 
immunological point of view is 

858
00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:42,720
outside your body. 
So if you've got something in 

859
00:55:42,720 --> 00:55:47,440
your digestive tract going onto 
the inside that that that's 

860
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:52,040
might that's caused by this 
other discontinuity or this 

861
00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:57,320
disequilibrium and then that 
that bacterium proliferates in a

862
00:55:57,320 --> 00:56:01,800
way that's hard to control and 
is ultimately one of the part of

863
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:03,800
the causal structure of the the 
death. 

864
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:06,480
So. 
So I think these things are 

865
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:08,800
bound. 
The Pharmaceutical industry 

866
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:14,000
likes to reduce complexity to a 
single cause with a single 

867
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:18,480
response and a single solution. 
Yeah, yeah, that's right. 

868
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:22,640
It's, it's a simplistic model. 
Again, that's attraction for the

869
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:24,680
simple narrative. 
Yeah. 

870
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:26,800
So you picked up a virus, that's
why you got flu. 

871
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:32,280
Take the shot. 
Yeah, but but the important 

872
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:36,880
thing is, you know, people say, 
oh, you know, you're going to 

873
00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:39,040
get tuberculosis if somebody 
coughs on you. 

874
00:56:40,240 --> 00:56:45,120
No, I think you could be the 
Princess Diana of tuberculosis 

875
00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:47,920
patients and, you know, hugging 
every single one of them and 

876
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:53,360
walking around day on a daily 
basis with TB, TB sufferers. 

877
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:57,200
And if you've got a normal diet 
and are healthy, you have 

878
00:56:57,360 --> 00:57:00,840
absolutely no elevated risk at 
all. 

879
00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:03,040
I know they can cough on you all
day. 

880
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:06,920
I think that's the reality. 
Whereas the the picture that's 

881
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:08,800
presented is no. 
Well, there's this pathogen and 

882
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:10,120
you've got to try and avoid 
getting it. 

883
00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:13,120
Just quickly, you mentioned 
healthy. 

884
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:17,080
So I said the other day to 
somebody, if your system is 

885
00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:20,480
healthy then you won't get sick.
I mean that that seems to be the

886
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:22,720
correct dichotomy. 
And then he said almost. 

887
00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:26,400
By definition, right? 
But then he said, OK, then why 

888
00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:30,640
don't we live forever? 
Yeah, I mean, that's a whole 

889
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:33,800
different subject that's almost 
a mechanical subject or a, or at

890
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:37,040
least a sort of biochemical 
subject. 

891
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:39,480
There's this phenomenon of 
programmed cell death, 

892
00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:42,680
apoptosis. 
It's quite hard to understand. 

893
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:47,480
And it's a, you know, I don't 
for a minute believe that it's 

894
00:57:47,480 --> 00:57:50,840
been fully understood. 
I mean, I've seen explanations 

895
00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:55,040
for how apoptosis works that 
include quantum mechanics, 

896
00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:56,640
which, you know, it's, it's 
quite hairy. 

897
00:57:56,960 --> 00:58:01,440
But apoptosis or programmed cell
death is, is, is this phenomenon

898
00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:04,000
that we do run into. 
And it happens, by the way, in a

899
00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:07,480
cascading fashion. 
Once, once apoptosis hits a 

900
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:10,680
certain threshold in the body, 
it cascades into the rest of the

901
00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:13,160
body. 
So you, you, you think people 

902
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:15,000
die of like sort of one organ 
failure. 

903
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:17,560
But actually what happens is the
body starts collectively dying 

904
00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:20,800
and other organs start dying 
and, and the whole system shuts 

905
00:58:20,800 --> 00:58:25,520
down in this this cascade of 
program cell death or apoptosis.

906
00:58:25,520 --> 00:58:28,080
And that describes death in 
normal circumstances. 

907
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:33,520
So yeah, I mean it and it 
presents, as far as I understand

908
00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:36,280
it, a hard limit. 
So all of these loony 

909
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:39,800
billionaires who are trying 
various life extension methods 

910
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:42,440
and so on, and who believe that 
they kind of survive long enough

911
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:45,440
to upload their brains and the 
computers are living a 

912
00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:50,600
completely delusional lie. 
But but, and, and I think 

913
00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:53,080
there's a hard limit and it's 
hitting humans at around the age

914
00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:56,880
of 120. 
And at that point, cells that 

915
00:58:56,880 --> 00:58:59,920
don't get replaced by the body 
and probably can't plausibly be 

916
00:58:59,920 --> 00:59:06,360
replaced turn off and that's it.
OK, so we are out of time, but I

917
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:12,240
just want to point out Nick, I 
am a fan of germ theory. 

918
00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:26,640
A few bottle of wine you've got 
and laughter that's really on 

919
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:29,680
top that. 
It's been a wonderful chat job. 

920
00:59:29,720 --> 00:59:32,600
Thanks very much and I hope you 
have a wonderful festive season 

921
00:59:32,680 --> 00:59:34,880
and Merry Christmas to all the 
viewers out there. 

922
00:59:35,720 --> 00:59:39,360
I'm sorry if we rambled a bit, 
but I enjoyed the conversation. 

923
00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:41,480
Thanks a lot. 
We were just spit morning. 

924
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:44,240
But before you go, Nick, how can
my audience follow you? 

925
00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:48,760
You can follow me on the most 
heavily shadow band platform 

926
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:53,160
that is X. 
My handle is Nick Hudson, CT and

927
00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:55,640
I've got a sub stack that I'm 
threatening to crank up over the

928
00:59:55,640 --> 00:59:58,400
Christmas holidays. 
Who knows? 

929
01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:01,560
Yeah, that's about it.