1 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:43,080 Was having a chat this week with somebody I like to quip saying 2 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:45,200 that I'm neither left wing nor right wing, I'm the middle 3 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:49,000 finger. And the gentleman responded by 4 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:52,760 saying, but labels do matter, you know, you can't erase 5 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:54,800 language. And I found that quite 6 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:58,000 interesting because to a degree he's got a point. 7 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:01,360 Like a gardener is somebody who's a gardener and you, it's 8 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:04,120 his descriptor or doctor. But if you're talking about 9 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,520 something abstract, like an ideological worldview, then 10 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:14,680 labels become less important. No, I think labels become really 11 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:16,720 problematic. I think they're very important 12 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:18,760 because they're still problematic. 13 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:23,160 You know, we like to compartmentalise people, we like 14 00:01:23,320 --> 00:01:28,280 to compartmentalise things. And but the problem is if, if 15 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:31,600 you decide for yourself that you're left wing or right wing, 16 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,760 then you've automatically got to believe certain things. 17 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:39,600 I mean, I, I'm quite proud of the fact that we've been equally 18 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,760 accused of being right wing and left wing and so on, because, 19 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:46,040 because this isn't, this shouldn't be how the world 20 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:48,640 works. You know, that, that, OK, I'm 21 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:51,000 right wing, therefore I've got to support Israel or I'm right 22 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:54,160 wing, therefore I've got to be anti this or that. 23 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:56,680 That's, that's not how it works. We should be looking at each 24 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:01,200 issue as as it is and and having a conversation about each issue 25 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:04,920 and set this ideological nonsense aside. 26 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:09,360 Well, I think it's up to us really as to whether they do 27 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:12,920 create division. I mean, I think that's, yeah, 28 00:02:12,920 --> 00:02:17,960 it's a, it's a related issue. But you know, OK, let's take 29 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:20,080 the, the obvious right, right or left wing. 30 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:26,480 Why aren't we grown up enough to just consider that somebody who 31 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:29,640 describes themselves as either right wing, if you're left wing 32 00:02:29,640 --> 00:02:31,840 or left wing and you're right wing, that they just have a 33 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:34,200 different point of view ultimately? 34 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:36,760 We've talked about this a little bit before You're. 35 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:40,400 You. You would label yourself as such 36 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:44,680 because you believe that you're pursuing ultimately probably the 37 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,160 same ends, but just by different means. 38 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:52,440 And I think that I think division is or the sowing of 39 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:54,520 division. The way that division manifests 40 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:58,720 is, is slightly a separate issue, but but of course, of 41 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:02,880 course, absolutely related. I, I think also the, you know, 42 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:07,040 one of the massive problems with labelling, whether it's of 43 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:11,600 people or of things or of concepts or, or whatever is it, 44 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:14,560 it means different things to different people. 45 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:20,360 And that is in some ways deliberate. 46 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:23,600 But, but I think I, yeah, again, I, I think that that adds, sort 47 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:27,560 of adds to the confusion. The term left and right wing, I 48 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,240 mean, I think most people should know by now that they come from 49 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:32,800 the French Revolution, which was a few centuries ago. 50 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:39,880 They had a reason to exist then because it was literal division 51 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:44,200 of the parliamentary structure. You know, those who were trying 52 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:48,480 to revolutionise the system set to the left of the parliamentary 53 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:52,240 speaker and those who wanted to preserve the monarchy set to the 54 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,560 right. The terms now don't mean 55 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,440 anything. And I have asked numerous people 56 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:00,960 over the years, will you call me far right? 57 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,520 This is not even better. Please define that. 58 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:07,960 What do you mean by that? And every single person you ask 59 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:13,080 has a different definition. And I would say that there are 60 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:15,720 all the definitions are wrong anyway, because, because if we 61 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:19,000 look at the so called political spectrum and we look at the the 62 00:04:19,079 --> 00:04:25,120 absolute extremes of that and we look at, you know, extreme 63 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:28,920 socialism slash communism on one side and extreme right wing 64 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,160 slash national socialism on the other side. 65 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:34,360 What what is the difference between them? 66 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:39,120 So, so the better paradigm perhaps might be a circle that 67 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,760 that once you move too far to the right, you basically end up 68 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:44,960 in the same place as moving too far to the left. 69 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:51,560 But you know, at the end of the day, as I say these, these as, 70 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,640 as you've said, these labels are there to divide. 71 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:59,120 And you know who's who? I think the question that we've 72 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:02,280 all got to ask, no matter what part of the political spectrum 73 00:05:02,280 --> 00:05:07,240 we might think we exist in, the question we've got to ask is who 74 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:12,080 is it that wants that division? That seems to me to be the, the, 75 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:14,880 the best starting place. And perhaps then you discover 76 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:18,920 that that that that person that you're hollering at who who you 77 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,560 say is on the opposite side of the political spectrum to 78 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:26,440 yourself actually is wanting to consider exactly the same issues 79 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:29,520 that you're wanting to consider. And in fact, the enemy isn't on 80 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:32,920 that political spectrum at all. Yes, well, that was the point I 81 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:34,680 was making. I I said, so I was at a 82 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:39,600 gathering of cartoonists a few days ago, some of South Africa's 83 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:43,640 top cartoonists. And the irony is that they all 84 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:46,800 were impressed that I pitched up because they said, well, that 85 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:49,200 was very brave because, you know, you're you're the only 86 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,160 right wing cartoonist. And I found that so odd because 87 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:53,920 I said to them, what do you mean though? 88 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:55,480 Like, what does that actually mean? 89 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:59,400 We both want a better society. We both want a better world, 90 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:01,560 right? We just have perhaps different 91 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:05,120 views on certain things. And they and they they still 92 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,960 stuck in that sort of ideological paradigm. 93 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:12,640 And I've it's bizarre. Well, I, I don't think it's that 94 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:14,760 bizarre when you consider the amount of effort that goes into 95 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:16,520 maintaining that particular status quo. 96 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,120 Because exactly like Mike says, you know, if, if, if people are 97 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:22,280 busy fighting with each other and, and, and only ever looking 98 00:06:22,280 --> 00:06:26,800 sideways, not up sort of figuratively, then then then 99 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:29,440 that's, that's ideal. That, that is absolutely ideal. 100 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:35,240 So, yeah, I mean, inserting of labelling is, I would have said, 101 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:38,040 you know, when it is done deliberately has it, it is for 102 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:41,200 that very reason. And, and I totally agree on, you 103 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:42,920 know, I mean, on the, the sort of continuum thing. 104 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:46,600 I can, I can remember one of the few things I remember from 105 00:06:47,280 --> 00:06:52,200 school that seem to absolutely make sense, you know, looking at 106 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:56,080 whether one was told it was extreme left or right, 107 00:06:56,280 --> 00:06:58,080 ultimately it is exactly the same thing. 108 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:01,240 And certainly for the people within such a system that 109 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:03,680 describes itself or one or the other, the yeah, the outcomes 110 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:08,960 are more or less identical. And I think we're we're seeing 111 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:14,000 in in a lot of so called sort of Western civilised societies, 112 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:21,600 we're seeing those points being reached, if not for everybody, 113 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:26,080 certainly sort of in principle that that the push the drive for 114 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:31,640 those spaces, those points on that continuums absolutely 115 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:35,440 playing out now I think. I think the the, the major issue 116 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:40,840 here is that that from bottom to top, we have this political 117 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:43,960 division of doesn't matter what country you're in either. 118 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:47,720 You've got 2, basically two major parties or two major 119 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:51,560 ideologies at work here. But if we, if we look, you're 120 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:55,480 just taking 2 examples, the, the creation of the Soviet Union and 121 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:59,840 the creation of Nazi Germany. And, and you find the same, when 122 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:02,400 you actually do a little bit of digging, you find the same 123 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,960 financial interests supporting both efforts. 124 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,120 And, and so, you know, that's, that's OK, that's an extreme 125 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,800 example, but but this is, this is how it works. 126 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:17,260 We've got the same financial interest supporting both so 127 00:08:17,260 --> 00:08:20,240 called sides of politics in all our countries. 128 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:25,240 And, and so we end up with a false choice between in the, in 129 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:28,200 the UK, between Labour and Tory and, and increasingly it's a 130 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:30,760 false choice because increasingly it's obvious that 131 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:33,480 it's a uni party because they pursue the same policies. 132 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:39,640 And and so you know, the quite the question that that we've got 133 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:42,760 to, I think if we've got to persuade anybody, if anything, 134 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:48,840 it is to to look a bit deeper at, at who is actually where, 135 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,960 you know, who is supporting and originating these ideologies in 136 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:54,520 the first place. The one gentleman was chatting 137 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:57,280 to me about it doesn't really matter too much, but it was 138 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:00,560 about hunting. And he said, but I, I completely 139 00:09:00,560 --> 00:09:02,800 oppose it. You know, that's it's 140 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:05,120 predictable that, that you would, that you would support 141 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:07,520 hunting. And I said, how is that a 142 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:09,920 political? How's that a political thing? 143 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:11,920 OK, I asked him, do you eat meat? 144 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:14,680 He said yes. And then there was a moment of 145 00:09:14,680 --> 00:09:16,280 silence. And he goes, yes, I understand 146 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:19,320 that that what you about to say is that it's going to be a 147 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:22,720 double standard here. But somehow this has been 148 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:27,160 encapsulated into political ideal, ideology and of course, 149 00:09:27,680 --> 00:09:29,840 division. Of course, that's because it's a 150 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:33,640 mechanism of control. And so the fact that the fact is 151 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:37,520 we can't have those conversations because, you know, 152 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:41,520 let's put ourselves in the shoes of, of that person you were 153 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:43,440 speaking to. We can't have that conversation 154 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:45,680 because he's already without thinking about it. 155 00:09:45,680 --> 00:09:48,080 And this is the key point. Without thinking about it, he 156 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:51,920 has already decided that he is against hunting and he's pro 157 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,800 abortion because he happens to, to exist in that particular 158 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:58,840 political space. The, the, the main issue is 159 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:04,560 that, that once you find yourself in that kind of reality 160 00:10:04,560 --> 00:10:08,320 and that kind of thinking, you're immediately switching off 161 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:09,880 your brain. At that point, you don't need to 162 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:12,520 think anymore. And this is, this is part of the 163 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:14,960 attraction of it. Of course you can just, you can 164 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:20,160 just consume a whole swathe of policy areas and say, yeah, I 165 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:22,280 support that. And you don't actually have to 166 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:24,080 consider any of the implications. 167 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,160 You just get on with it. So that's, that's part of the 168 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:29,760 problem. The problem is that for most 169 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:33,640 people they don't play in the game that they're not playing 170 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:37,680 characters to use that right so called right wing term and and 171 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:39,920 they don't think we've got to start thinking. 172 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:43,080 Just as well for the people who do get stuck in these 173 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:45,080 conversations, because otherwise you have to confront the rather 174 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:48,000 unfortunate reality that if you say that you oppose hunting and 175 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:50,680 therefore you don't want to see animals being killed, but you 176 00:10:50,680 --> 00:10:53,760 support abortion and therefore you do want to see unborn 177 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:57,160 foetuses being killed, then that puts you in a slightly tricky 178 00:10:57,160 --> 00:10:59,120 position. But of course, that's not part 179 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:00,960 of it. You're not supposed to think 180 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:04,400 that much about it. Because you've outsourced your 181 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:09,080 critical thinking. Yeah, yeah, totally, totally and 182 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:11,360 utterly. But, but, but it's you know, 183 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:15,840 it's it's it's brilliantly done. And also you see how how the the 184 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:19,480 sort of the drawbridges drop at the appropriate moments when 185 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:22,760 people it's slightly different, but how when people are primed 186 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:25,520 for such and such a thing. And, and the example now, I 187 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:29,720 think we might have talked about this before, but the, the, the 188 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:34,880 Labour government via what has been referred to as a think tank 189 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:37,760 that is in effect, the Labour government has said that they've 190 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:39,760 just cracked it. You know, they've, they've 191 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:44,560 worked out how to stop this terrible scourge of illegal and, 192 00:11:44,560 --> 00:11:47,840 or the problems with legal migration, which is via digital 193 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:53,400 ID And, and the way that the ground is prepared for it means 194 00:11:53,400 --> 00:12:02,720 that people of all creeds, as it were politically should for it's 195 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:05,440 sort of the trap is designed for everybody to fall into. 196 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:08,600 And that, and that again, is another, is another gift of the, 197 00:12:08,680 --> 00:12:12,320 of the sort of labelling thing, because you can, you can sell, 198 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:16,200 you can in effect, sell the same product to different people by 199 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:17,680 just calling it a different thing. 200 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:20,440 It's, it's wonderful. And it just never. 201 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:24,040 It never finishes. But I think a great counter 202 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:27,440 response to the whole are you a left winger or are you a right 203 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:31,480 winger might be something along the lines of, well, if you can 204 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:34,480 give me a definition of the term, then I'll tell you if I 205 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:36,000 am. Yes. 206 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:38,440 Oh yeah, absolutely. I I think, I think that should 207 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:42,160 be should completely be the first response with with any of 208 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,200 these things. Exactly. 209 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:48,000 So to, to define, you know, well, rather than saying, am I 210 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:51,720 whatever, Yeah, say, well, what, what is it exactly that you 211 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:54,680 think you mean by that? And, and then you and then you 212 00:12:54,680 --> 00:12:57,680 do, I mean, frankly, that should actually, if, if people are open 213 00:12:57,680 --> 00:13:00,880 minded enough and sort of can remain calm enough that that 214 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:02,560 does lead into an interesting discussion. 215 00:13:02,560 --> 00:13:05,840 Because I mean, after all, what we're talking about now is not 216 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,160 I, I can't see that anyone would find this offensive, whether 217 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:11,760 they consider themselves to be of the left or of the right, 218 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:15,000 just to examine what that does mean and why they think that 219 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:16,440 such and such a thing conforms to it. 220 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:19,040 And it reminds me actually of the conversation that you had 221 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:21,920 with Vanessa Bailey, uh, within what I come. 222 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:26,280 It was a couple days ago and she was talking about the 223 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:29,240 differences, you know, the imagined differences between 224 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:34,080 between say Donald Trump and Joe Biden with regard to to war or 225 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:37,440 indeed Obama or, you know, any of them. 226 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,800 And, and it is incredible that there are an enormous number of 227 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:44,240 people who will believe that because somebody has been sort 228 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:49,200 of labelled as a, a peacemaking anti war president, that 229 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:52,720 therefore there won't be war and they won't remember that there 230 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:56,400 was war. And then you, you look at what 231 00:13:56,400 --> 00:14:01,000 has happened and you see that the, the way in which this 232 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:04,000 person is described and their administration is described is 233 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:06,880 totally at odds with what actually happened. 234 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:09,680 But people will continue to believe it because that's the 235 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,320 that's the packaging that the story has had. 236 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:15,280 You mentioned emotional response. 237 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:17,240 Why? Why do you think people get so 238 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:23,000 worked up? Yeah, I mean that that that's a 239 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:25,760 good one that that is, that is quite some conditioning because 240 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,920 exactly why, why would you, why, why do people feel. 241 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:30,880 And you know, again, Donald Trump is an interesting one. 242 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:34,640 People, a lot of people do seem to behave sort of like they know 243 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:39,480 him. And we we get this on UK column 244 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,880 after the news. Not that we, you know, we, we 245 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:48,520 don't at all make a, a practise of playing the man and not the 246 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,080 ball. But sometimes it, it is very 247 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:55,360 much the case that you can look at one individual who has for 248 00:14:55,360 --> 00:15:00,400 whatever reason, influenced the situation in, in a, a way that 249 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:05,760 deserves scrutiny. And this is not meant to be a 250 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:09,560 generalisation, but there there are invariably a number of 251 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:14,400 responses to such a such a sort of talking point, especially in 252 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:18,640 the news about something that's perceived to say critical of the 253 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:21,080 person, you know, negative about that particular person. 254 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:24,600 And it is, it's really interesting because often it 255 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,640 manifests all the way it expresses itself is as though 256 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:31,280 the the UK column viewer who's who's sort of written in about 257 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:34,400 it takes it personally, as though, as though somehow 258 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:38,520 you're, you know, savaging a member of their family or, or 259 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:41,360 even them by extension. And, and it is, it is 260 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:44,360 interesting, but I think this is, this is one of the things 261 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:49,200 that has been done very successfully is, is perhaps 262 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:53,600 through all these incredible and and non stop forms of media, 263 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:57,200 people's personalities have sort of been imprinted upon those 264 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:00,800 that are absorbing the content. And therefore they do seem to 265 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:03,600 have what what they perceive to be almost a personal 266 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,680 relationship with that person. I think there's a number of 267 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:09,600 issues here. The first is to follow on from 268 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:14,480 what Charles is saying. There's because there's so much 269 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,880 chaos and so on at the moment. There's definitely a need in 270 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:22,400 people for some kind of hero to come and save the day. 271 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:25,040 There's no question about that. But but on the more general 272 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:29,600 point, you know, there seems to be some kind of ingrained 273 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:36,360 fundamental desire requirement in humanity to be a member of a 274 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:38,000 club. It doesn't matter whether it's 275 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,440 support for a Sports Club. You think of the of how how 276 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,720 motivated people get about football, for example, and how 277 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,960 partisan they are. So it doesn't matter whether 278 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:51,520 it's sports or whether it's politics or, or whatever it 279 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:53,720 happens with, whether it's gender or whatever it happens to 280 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,280 be, people want to belong to to a club. 281 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:03,360 And, and this is, This is why it makes us so manipulable because 282 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:07,640 we have that strong desire to be amongst people that think the 283 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:10,200 same way and, and behave the same way and so on. 284 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:13,119 And, and this, this makes us suckers for this every single 285 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:15,359 time. They just they, they the people 286 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:20,960 that are, that are sort of managing societies, recognise 287 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:25,560 how to manage societies and, and giving strong brand identity to 288 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:30,000 the various clubs is is a, a mechanism for doing that and we 289 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:33,520 fall for it every time. It's the Messiah syndrome. 290 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:39,520 And no question about that. And but also it's because people 291 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:43,800 perceive events locally, nationally, globally, whatever 292 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:47,160 it happens to be, they perceive events as being so big that 293 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:50,480 there's nothing that they as individuals can do about it 294 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:51,880 because they're just little people. 295 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:56,120 And and we, we, it's, it's natural for us to all have this 296 00:17:56,120 --> 00:18:01,280 kind of concern and so on. But but somehow because Trump 297 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:06,320 has given the perhaps false perception that he's somehow 298 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,720 something special because he happens to own some real estate 299 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:13,960 and and a couple of golf courses and has said some things in the 300 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:17,520 past that people agree with. And nobody seems to they see, 301 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:19,880 it's been people seem to switch their brains off at this point 302 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:23,160 and say, well, OK, he said stuff that I agree with in the past. 303 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:25,040 I'm going to support this guy because he's going to save the 304 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:26,160 day. And he said he's going to drain 305 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:27,400 the swamp and he's going to do this. 306 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:32,480 And the other thing nobody has ever considered the possibility 307 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:34,760 that he's, he has lied all this time. 308 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,160 I mean, I'm not saying that he has, but because I don't know 309 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:41,680 the man and I don't know, you know, what his thought processes 310 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:44,400 have been over the years. But nobody has considered the 311 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:47,960 possibility that he has lied his way into the position of 312 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:51,480 President of the United States. And that actually the, the, the 313 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:55,360 faith in, in that individual or any individual is, is falsely 314 00:18:55,360 --> 00:18:57,880 placed. And this is, this is dangerous 315 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:00,640 because we're effectively giving up any agency that we have. 316 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,720 But, but the, the fundamental problem here is that people 317 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:06,720 refuse to believe that they have any agency of their own. 318 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:09,280 I. Think I think it was Catherine 319 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:13,760 Fitz who made a great comment about a a way to look at world 320 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:15,440 leaders. You know that they're 321 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:17,200 effectively just middle management. 322 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:20,720 I think, I think that that's a good observation, but I, and I 323 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,000 think that this is, this is also, this is another aspect of 324 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:27,320 the problem that people have is that they're always thinking 325 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,680 about who's at the top of the pyramid and that's the target. 326 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,720 Well, no, that's not the target. That should never be the target 327 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,560 because the fact of the matter is the people at the top of the 328 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:39,400 pyramid, they hold the purse strings and so on, but they, 329 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,960 they have no direct control over what happens on the ground. 330 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:45,760 And so they need this layer of middle management. 331 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,000 If you can disrupt that layer of middle management, you can 332 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:51,400 disrupt their plans. And that's, that's that I think 333 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:55,120 is where people make a mistake. They're always trying to target 334 00:19:55,120 --> 00:19:57,440 the top of the pyramid. They're always worried about 335 00:19:57,440 --> 00:19:59,200 who's at the top of The Who cares? 336 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:02,480 Doesn't matter. The fact of the matter is, you 337 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:04,600 know, those people are invisible, but the people that 338 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,640 are visible, the people that are in middle management, they are 339 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:08,880 there. They're the target. 340 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,320 And that's who we should be targeting, in my opinion. 341 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:13,920 You know, we, we should also, I think they should be much more 342 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:15,880 lampooning. I mean, the idea of a one world 343 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:20,840 government is just so utterly preposterous that it's 344 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:24,120 laughable, frankly. And yes, you know, all right, 345 00:20:24,120 --> 00:20:29,520 there are, there are many, you know, well founded concerns that 346 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:33,080 come with the idea of it and the and the sort of movement towards 347 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:36,440 it. But it it does come down to the 348 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:40,240 choices that you make and what you're able to put in place to 349 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,720 make sure that you can deal with the situation as it as it 350 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:49,200 presents itself, I think. Ian Davis actually makes a good 351 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,720 point about that one world government narrative. 352 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:55,840 I I mean, I agree with you. I think it does seem quite 353 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:57,480 preposterous. The world's a very big place. 354 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:05,080 But he argues that one world governance is more plausible. 355 00:21:05,120 --> 00:21:09,080 And one world governance, for example, can occur through 356 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:13,160 systems like the UN, which has, you know, almost 200 countries 357 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,200 basically agreeing to everything that the UN says. 358 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,120 I'll just make the jet. I'll just gently make the point, 359 00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:23,280 Jeremy, that we've had a one World Governance series on the 360 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:26,720 UK column website since 2010 or so or 2011. 361 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,080 So, so this is this, this has been our point from the 362 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,240 beginning. This, this isn't about one World 363 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:37,160 government because of course that is simply not possible. 364 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:41,720 Even if you have some kind of Politburo Bureau in the UN or 365 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,400 wherever, where whatever organisation is supposed to be 366 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:46,120 at the top of that particular pyramid. 367 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:53,400 Of course there has to be government at, you know, various 368 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:57,360 strata and, and in various parts of the world, various regional 369 00:21:57,360 --> 00:22:01,400 assemblies and, and so on it. But it's the governance 370 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:03,880 framework which is the important thing. 371 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:08,240 And of course, you know, we would categorise digital ID and 372 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:13,040 CBDC and these types of policy areas as being part of the, that 373 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:16,440 governance framework. And, and it's, it's the idea 374 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:21,320 that, you know, that that is decided at, in one location on 375 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:23,760 the planet. And that therefore at a local 376 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:27,040 level, we basically have no say in how that framework is created 377 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:31,840 and what, what that framework is that that I think is, is a 378 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,480 dangerous thing. And, and you know, it, it this, 379 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,480 this comes back to whole other raft of issues. 380 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:43,560 For example, the issue of diversity, which is presented as 381 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:47,800 being some mechanism to protect minorities or make sure that 382 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,480 people that are, you know, immigrants to a country are 383 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:54,160 treated fairly or that women are treated fairly or whatever it 384 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:56,960 happens to be. But in fact, I think we may have 385 00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:00,600 mentioned this before, but, but diversity is about breaking down 386 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:06,200 the differences between, between peoples and between whatever 387 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:08,680 part of, you know, section of society we're talking about. 388 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:12,400 And that, that in the process of doing that, you actually break 389 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:17,720 down the, the strength of, of the human, because strength 390 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:21,080 comes from having different ideas and debating and, and so 391 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,480 on. And we end up with, with better 392 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,200 answers when we, when we actually approach problems from 393 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,360 different points of view. If we all think the same and 394 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:34,920 that then we're weakening ourselves as, as, as a, as a 395 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,880 species. And, and that's dangerous. 396 00:23:38,360 --> 00:23:42,000 But you know, it's absolutely governance is the and the 397 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:43,920 governance frameworks are the things that we should be 398 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:47,760 focusing on, not the idea of, of, of some kind of single 399 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,840 government which can never exist as, as Charles is saying. 400 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:53,320 The three of us are quite diverse. 401 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,720 We have different views and we have overlapping views. 402 00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:01,080 That in itself is diversity. We aren't all zombies with 403 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:03,920 precisely the same outlook on everything. 404 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:06,880 Yeah, that's because that's because, again, these are points 405 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,280 of division that that that certain people take advantage of 406 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,400 for, you know, at at multiple levels. 407 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:14,760 I mean, the the people at the top of the pyramid absolutely 408 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,320 take advantage of that for as a mechanism control. 409 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:21,840 But but equally people at the bottom of the pyramid take 410 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:26,040 advantage of that just because it gives them some kind of, you 411 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,440 know, public persona or whatever. 412 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,640 And they, they stand and they shout at certain sections of 413 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,480 the, of, of the town or city that they happen to be in and, 414 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,880 and start shouting about enemy combatants and this kind of 415 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:39,840 thing. So, so you know, this, this is 416 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,360 something that can be exploited in many, many ways. 417 00:24:43,360 --> 00:24:46,640 Now, I'm not going to say that I like everybody. 418 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:50,680 I reserve the right to to dislike anybody I like, but I'm 419 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:55,680 not, I'm sorry, dislike anybody I want rather than yes, but, 420 00:24:55,680 --> 00:25:00,680 but, but I'm going to do that. I'm personally would would make 421 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,320 that decision based on what they say and what they do, but 422 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:07,640 particularly what they do not, not based on anything else. 423 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:11,240 I mean, what at the end of the day, why would I care what 424 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:13,960 religion somebody is? I mean, I, I grew up in a 425 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,160 society that told me that I had to care what religion somebody 426 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:21,000 was and that, you know, that was nonsense and, and that was 427 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:24,520 obviously nonsense for anybody that had a brain at the time. 428 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,080 And I mean, too much diversity in any event, is not a good 429 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,040 thing. South Africa on a macro level is 430 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,520 a good example of that. But on a more micro level, if if 431 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:37,200 you're on a tour bus and there are, let's say 30 people from 432 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:38,720 different countries and they're all speaking different 433 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,520 languages, you're going to really get nowhere until you 434 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:43,480 hear that one person speaking perhaps English. 435 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:45,720 And you go, there's somebody, there's somebody, and you want 436 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:47,720 to go and sit next to them so you can at least chat. 437 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:50,440 No, I don't think, I don't think I agree with that. 438 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:54,400 I think I think, you know, if, if how many countries do we have 439 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,680 in the world 170 something or whatever it is. 440 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,600 You know, each of those countries, some of them are, 441 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,680 are, have formed naturally. Some of them have formed 442 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,800 because, you know, various empires have said this is your 443 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,800 border. But nonetheless, those people 444 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:18,360 have different languages often, but they, but I think we made 445 00:26:18,360 --> 00:26:22,240 this point as well before. There are concepts expressed in 446 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:24,400 some languages that are unexpressible in other 447 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,160 languages. If we, if we destroy those, if 448 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,400 in the name of diversity, we say, no, you can't speak your 449 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,040 language anymore because because I can't understand you, you've 450 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,000 got to speak English or you've got to speak German or you've 451 00:26:35,120 --> 00:26:39,760 got to speak French, Then of course you lose the concepts 452 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,600 that that are expressed in that language by those people. 453 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:44,520 You lose, you lose that thought process. 454 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,640 And, and that, that's, that's what I mean when, when we weaken 455 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,920 ourselves, when we do that. So, so, you know, I take your 456 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,480 point that if you're in a, if you're a stranger in a strange 457 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,640 land, that it can be difficult because you don't speak the 458 00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:58,320 language. But but that doesn't mean that 459 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:04,800 we should be all deciding to sort of lessen the the range of. 460 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:07,000 Yeah, that's not, Yeah, that's not what I was saying. 461 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:07,800 I was. That's why I thought OK. 462 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:09,640 Sorry about that. That's why I said on a on a 463 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,200 micro level, if you're on a tour bus, you you're going to have a 464 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:16,320 very, very boring time if you aren't able to communicate with 465 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:18,760 everybody around you. Yeah, OK. 466 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:20,880 But I think we've got to wait. I think we've got to get our 467 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:25,280 terms right here because because when, when you say diversity, 468 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,560 that doesn't, that doesn't mean the same as when they say 469 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:32,880 diversity, because when they say diversity, what they mean is the 470 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,320 removal of diversity. They, they mean that, that in 471 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:43,480 order to, in order to, you know, be accepting of, of other 472 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:46,760 cultures and so on, you've got to change your culture. 473 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,680 And so the aim of the game there is to turn everybody into the 474 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,560 same thing. It's like it's, you know, an 475 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,880 example of this. If you look through, look at any 476 00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:01,560 city in the Western world, in Europe, let's just say Europe, 477 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,360 you will find the same shops in the same high streets that 478 00:28:05,360 --> 00:28:08,520 everything looks the same. Now this is this at a certain 479 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,880 level is a great example of it. And it, it's, it's horrible 480 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,720 because you can't go to Paris or you can't go to Berlin or you 481 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:20,160 can't go to Frotzois or, or, or Warsaw and see something which 482 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,120 is in Francois for Warsaw. You can't see something which is 483 00:28:23,120 --> 00:28:25,360 Polish anymore. You can't see something which is 484 00:28:25,360 --> 00:28:27,760 German. And in Berlin it's all the big 485 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:32,960 multinational corporates. This is the effect of of their 486 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,560 meaning of diversity with a. Capital D. 487 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:40,840 Yes, and and it's it's destroying cultures and that is 488 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:46,240 the point of it. So because, because, because the 489 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:51,000 language that's being used at a certain, with a certain section 490 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,720 of society has been turned into something different. 491 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:57,920 So the words might be English, but they don't mean what you 492 00:28:57,920 --> 00:28:59,600 think they mean or what I think they mean. 493 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:01,800 And that that's our problem with. 494 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,480 So we have to, the first thing we have to do is to try to 495 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:09,760 interpret what they're saying. And, and you know, it's, it's a 496 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:13,960 silly thing to say, perhaps, but, but often if you just 497 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,680 assume that what they mean is 180° out from what you think 498 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:19,840 they mean, you may be getting closer to the truth. 499 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,640 Yeah, but that dovetails to the start of this conversation with 500 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:26,480 understanding labels and definition. 501 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:30,120 So we need to, we need to also be clear with our language. 502 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,760 So when people speak like this we need to 1st ask them what do 503 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,280 you mean? Yeah. 504 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:38,840 Well, that's where you can come off the rails quite quickly 505 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:44,160 because basically people don't know and and that's 506 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:49,360 unfortunately where I think this sort of conversation that starts 507 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:53,760 out as well meaning and well intended can can turn into 508 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,960 something that becomes more contradictory and controversial 509 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,320 than it should because people are unable. 510 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:02,960 I mean, it's you know, it shouldn't be really regarded as 511 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,120 a challenge, but people perceive it to be a challenge as though 512 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,840 you're immediately trying to undermine their point of view. 513 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:09,840 But in actual fact, you're just trying to understand it. 514 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,320 And and you know, like you say, going back to the beginning, The 515 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,440 thing is that people by and large, they don't, they don't 516 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,320 understand, they don't they, they know that such and such a 517 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,960 thing equals far right or far left or what? 518 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,400 I mean, actually not really far left these days, mostly far 519 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,680 right. And that's enough. 520 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:28,120 That's, that's all you need to know. 521 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,000 You don't, you don't have to be able to qualify it. 522 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,560 It's, yeah, it's, it's, it's pathetic. 523 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,000 How? How disappointing to to have to 524 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,160 exist like that. Charles So I did a, As you know, 525 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,240 I did a conversation with Vanessa Bailey a few nights ago 526 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,800 and I got an very, very angry message from somebody after 527 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:46,960 that. Good. 528 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,920 This is just anti Semitic. How can you, how can you even 529 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,240 platform somebody like this? She doesn't know what she's 530 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,240 talking about, blah, blah, blah. I'm so disappointed in, in, in 531 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:57,680 you and UK calling blah, blah, blah. 532 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:03,800 And this is the problem that you were alluding to earlier, that 533 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:08,800 people get so emotionally attached to these ideological 534 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,600 world views. Yeah, I mean, on that specific 535 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:16,080 issue, join the club. You know that that's, that that 536 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:21,800 happens without fail when there's any, any suggestion that 537 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:27,840 that the state of Israel, which has nothing to do with Jewish 538 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,600 people or the Jewish faith, literally just talking about 539 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:39,040 the, the, the state of Israel. It is, it is absolutely seen as 540 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:45,040 somehow indistinct from criticism of, of, of Jewish 541 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:46,720 people. And therefore it's the inference 542 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:48,880 is that it's anti Semitic. And I mean, yeah. 543 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,520 And again, that term is completely mis misappropriated 544 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:54,640 anyway. So yes, I mean, it's, you know, 545 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,680 it's very sad because people do, people do get triggered by it 546 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,360 and they therefore don't think about what is actually being 547 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:04,680 said. And I, I'm not, I mean, I, I, I 548 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:09,680 remember exactly Vanessa's remark and, and, and I, I 549 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,280 completely agree with her within the context that she said it. 550 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,680 And, and saying, saying that because, I mean, you know, 551 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,040 again, are people inconsistent? I mean, you did, did whoever you 552 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:21,480 were communicating with have a view on Kashmir or Western 553 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:25,240 Sahara or, you know, any of the other many disputed territories 554 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,080 over the world And, and there, you know, how they sort of came 555 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:35,480 to be. So, yes, I, I think it's, it's 556 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:41,720 another excellent exercise in, well, let's say, labelling the, 557 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:46,280 the, the fact that people, an enormous number of people that 558 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,800 never have never really stopped to think about it. 559 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,560 And, and I don't mean I'm not talking about people that are 560 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,840 Jewish or have links to Israel, but but people across the board 561 00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:00,000 are just conditioned into thinking of Israel as being the 562 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:05,880 only country on earth that is somehow absolutely to be 563 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:11,840 regarded as indistinct from anybody that is Jewish. 564 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:16,920 It's, it's a remarkable achievement to have have been 565 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:21,960 able to say that mental condition across the world. 566 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:27,520 But, but it's amazing because I, I mean, I, I don't know, can can 567 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:31,160 you think of anywhere else that falls into a similar category? 568 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,720 The other, sorry, the other point I would make about this is 569 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,400 of course that that that reaction from that person to 570 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:42,520 what Vanessa said was a first of all, a knee jerk reaction that 571 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:46,800 they, they reacted immediately without thinking based on I'm, 572 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,720 I'm speculating here, but probably based on ideological 573 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,240 lines. But they did so without 574 00:33:53,920 --> 00:34:00,240 considering who and what Vanessa Bailey actually is and maybe 575 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:04,000 don't know anything about her. And so, you know, the fact that 576 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,960 she lived in Gaza for a while, the fact that she's lived in 577 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,600 Syria for so many years, the fact that she has been on the 578 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:15,600 ground on the receiving end of a lot of what Israel has done over 579 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,800 the last number of decades. But also her family background 580 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,239 as well. And the fact that she was, you 581 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:23,760 know, the daughter of a British diplomat who ended up carrying 582 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:25,880 the can for the Suez crisis and so on. 583 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:30,719 And so she has quite a bit of direct knowledge of the 584 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,360 situation that many of us don't have. 585 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:37,239 You know, most of us are reading about Israel from books. 586 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:42,400 She has lived actually quite a lot of that and and so has a 587 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,520 different perspective on on things. 588 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:50,400 And so whether we agree with her or not, and this is, this is the 589 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:52,719 point that I really want to make here, whether we agree with 590 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:58,440 someone or not, we, we should be prepared to, to consider what 591 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:02,440 they have to say. And you know, when by that I 592 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,120 mean, whether we agree with them as as an initial reaction or 593 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,800 not, we should be willing to consider what they have to say 594 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,720 and actually find out a little bit more about why they're 595 00:35:10,720 --> 00:35:14,120 saying it. And, and you know, that that 596 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:16,040 helps to inform our future decisions. 597 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:20,760 But, you know, I've always said, Jeremy, that, that if we're 598 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,560 finding ourselves in an ideological situation and 599 00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:29,720 somebody says something to us which causes that, that knot in 600 00:35:29,720 --> 00:35:34,280 our gut and, and, and we just want to lash out and, and, and 601 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:36,120 say something unpleasant about them. 602 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:40,720 That's the point where we have to, in my opinion, actually 603 00:35:40,720 --> 00:35:43,880 challenge our own perceptions and our own. 604 00:35:44,240 --> 00:35:47,080 And we have to, we have to actually use that as a, as a 605 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,800 trigger for reconsidering whether we're whether our 606 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:54,040 position is correct or not. And, and this is something that 607 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,840 that most of us don't do often enough or at all. 608 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,480 We should be, we should be absolutely challenging our 609 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:05,360 positions on things every day, every time we have, we make a 610 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:06,760 statement or have a thought about it. 611 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:09,880 Am I right? Or have it, is there something I 612 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:13,440 haven't taken into account here? Because that, you know, if we 613 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,080 aren't doing that, then we don't really believe in the truth at 614 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,880 all. Mike, you're, I think you're 615 00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:22,800 absolutely perfectly right to talk about, you know, a comment 616 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:27,040 from Vanessa should be seen as something coming from somebody 617 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:31,400 who has seen what she's seen, researched what she's researched 618 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:35,640 and you know, all the other factors. 619 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:42,760 But I think it's unfair on Vanessa to think that there's 620 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:49,360 the possibility that her view is in any way an emotional one or 621 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:53,760 one that's based on stuff that she's seen. 622 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,920 Because I think that takes away what the, the objective point 623 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:04,560 she was making, which was about just giving land that wasn't 624 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,520 British to somebody. I mean, the, the she was talking 625 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:12,640 about the, the creation of the state of Israel, which which is 626 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,760 complete a completely extraordinary thing. 627 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:20,880 And, and rather than giving people the, the possibility of 628 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,360 regarding Vanessa as being a sort of, you know, Arabist 629 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,960 sympathiser and, you know, having, having any sort of 630 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:35,480 interference with, in her view of the all the various aspects 631 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:42,000 of her life that you reference, I think is, is a, is a real 632 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,080 issue. And, and yet we see, you know, 633 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:50,600 we see this sort of both both ways, whether it be to, in 634 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,320 relation to Israel or, or exactly like you say, German 635 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:57,880 with the, the issue of whether Islam is or isn't compatible 636 00:37:57,880 --> 00:37:59,360 with, with such and such a thing. 637 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:03,160 But I think it does, you know, the, because I, well, what I 638 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:05,280 would say with, with Israel is of course, the, the, the 639 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,080 conversation with Vanessa specifically was about Christian 640 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,960 Zionism. And, and again, that means that 641 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:15,440 people are not taking an objective view, that they're 642 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:21,880 basing their point of view on something that they believe is 643 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:26,240 the case from, you know, sort of historical biblical context. 644 00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:28,720 And, and that strips away the objectivity. 645 00:38:28,720 --> 00:38:34,080 So in in effect it becomes an emotional point of view, which I 646 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:38,440 think is a a dangerous thing. Asking the question actually is 647 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:40,960 not a very good question. Whether or not Israel has the 648 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,960 right to exist because a state exists or doesn't, nobody can 649 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:49,200 kind of enforce that right. I don't know whether it is. 650 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,760 I don't know whether it is, I think I think because just to 651 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,800 follow on from what Charles has just said, you know, the word 652 00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:58,560 that Charles used there was extraordinary. 653 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:02,200 It's the way that that the way that that project was done 654 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,760 hasn't been done that way before or since. 655 00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:12,720 And so I think, I think I think it, it is actually quite a good 656 00:39:12,720 --> 00:39:16,920 question and and it's one that needs to be discussed much more, 657 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:20,520 not less would be my suggestion on that. 658 00:39:20,720 --> 00:39:23,160 Yeah, I agree and I I think. Is it the right though? 659 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:25,240 Sorry. No, no, just just just to draw 660 00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:27,640 out the the because the inference, you know what, what 661 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:31,800 does 1 infer from the question? And again, that's you have to 662 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,840 you have to ask yourself, well, what is it you're reading into 663 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:39,840 that question because it what you should mean, but sorry, not 664 00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:41,840 what you should. But what I think you mean by 665 00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:47,440 that question is, is, was the way in which the state of Israel 666 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:51,960 was created correct? What what was that? 667 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:59,560 Was that to follow a process that that that was, you know, 668 00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:04,000 sort of Fair, legal, lawful or any of these sorts of things? 669 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:05,600 But, but ultimately, was it right? 670 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:10,600 As opposed to is, you know, does that question mean that all, all 671 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:12,600 Jews should be wiped off the face of the earth? 672 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,320 Well, what a ridiculous thing to to try. 673 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:19,800 I mean, you there, there are, there are Jewish people outside 674 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:24,240 the state of Israel and there are non Jewish people within. 675 00:40:24,240 --> 00:40:26,840 So it it makes no sense on that basis. 676 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:30,800 But you can bet that people will infer from that question that 677 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:34,520 that is what you mean by it. And indeed an answer that 678 00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:38,880 Vanessa gave in saying no, it shouldn't, that people will say, 679 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,480 oh, well, she, you know, she's saying death to whoever. 680 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:46,000 I mean which is which is just completely not fair or not the 681 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,800 case. It was that banned recently? 682 00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:54,240 Was it in the UK with a sang death to the IDF or something? 683 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:56,960 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they are. 684 00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:59,280 No, unbelievable. I mean, not sorry, not 685 00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:01,040 unbelievable. They did it unbelievable that 686 00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:04,680 people can't think further than the end of their nose because. 687 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,000 Or if did we not talk about it before anyway. 688 00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:12,000 But, you know, just imagine if they'd said if they'd done death 689 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,120 to death to Russian armed forces. 690 00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:16,320 Great. Well done, guys. 691 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:18,520 Well, you know, same place next year. 692 00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:22,040 So yeah, it's just, it's it's pathetic. 693 00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,480 By the way, it's your country that pretty much created the 694 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:27,560 state of Israel. Yeah. 695 00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:32,240 Absolutely, but that but that's why but but that is why going 696 00:41:32,240 --> 00:41:36,080 back to the specifics then that that's where it does come into 697 00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:38,040 play. The fact that the fact that 698 00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:42,560 Vanessa does know what she's knows and has lived what she has 699 00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,760 and that her father was a diplomat, you know, during that 700 00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:48,440 sort of period. If that is, that's where all of 701 00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:52,320 this becomes significant because we look at how history as it's 702 00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:56,160 unfolding in front of our very eyes is, is rewritten. 703 00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:03,480 And anyone say, say teenagers now will believe stuff that is 704 00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:08,400 absolute lies from anything that's happened over the last 705 00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:10,200 couple of years. I mean, you know, or, or, or 706 00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:13,480 look at, look at where we are with, with climate change, you 707 00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:17,640 know, the, the big one, they are, people are absolutely 708 00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:20,880 conditioned into thinking something that is, that is not 709 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:23,600 true. She she did concede, saying, 710 00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,880 look, perhaps it's because she has an emotional attachment to 711 00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:30,320 Jewish history and. No, I, I have much more time for 712 00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:36,120 people that, that approach these issues in that way than I do for 713 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:41,200 people that have simply decided something because they, you 714 00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:45,320 know, they actually have no historical attachment to, to 715 00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:47,400 this, the topic in any way, shape or form. 716 00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:49,360 They've, they've come to a certain conclusion because 717 00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:51,640 someone else told them that that was the conclusion that they had 718 00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:55,480 to have. So, you know, someone like that, 719 00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:58,480 someone like that, I think you can have a conversation with, 720 00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:02,680 but it's, it's much harder to have a conversation with someone 721 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:08,440 who has just taken a, a position without any kind of cerebral 722 00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:12,200 process at all, you know, because there's no, there's no 723 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:14,480 discussion. Patrick Kennington and I were at 724 00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:19,240 a a thing last night at Plymouth University and it was, it was a, 725 00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:22,560 a documentary film that that was getting a showing. 726 00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:26,320 It hasn't been sold in the UK. So at this point nobody else can 727 00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:28,880 watch it unless there's another private viewing somewhere else 728 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:30,560 in the country. But at this point it can't be 729 00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:32,560 watched. And it's all about the 730 00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:36,040 militarisation of the Arctic. And, and the premise is that 731 00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,000 this militarisation is happening because of climate change, 732 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:42,240 because the ice is melting. And therefore countries, there's 733 00:43:42,240 --> 00:43:46,080 this massive race to, to, to get control of that, that neck of 734 00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:52,320 the woods. There's, there's a whole raft of 735 00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:59,560 of issues around that that that particular topic and and I've 736 00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:02,280 completely lost the the thread of where I was going to go with 737 00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:06,520 that. I'm enjoying your raft of issues 738 00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:09,040 in the Arctic where of course there's no ice now, so it just 739 00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:13,120 be floating, floating around with all your issues on it. 740 00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:16,800 Right, right. So, so, so we go in, we sit down 741 00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:20,720 and the first person who speaks is, is a senior lecturer at 742 00:44:20,720 --> 00:44:22,840 Plymouth University who's a climate lecturer. 743 00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:26,160 And so there's no discussion with him whatsoever about 744 00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:28,200 anything. And then the guy who's made the 745 00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:32,520 documentary has been working in the past on, on David 746 00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:34,880 Attenborough's series and so on and, and whatnot. 747 00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:40,560 And it's absolutely clear that, that, that he has managed to get 748 00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:46,560 this documentary made by himself on his own with no support on 749 00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:50,080 the production side, but with massive support on the NATO 750 00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:54,040 side. And, and he so he has ended up 751 00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:58,440 producing something which, which is an absolute propaganda peace. 752 00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:03,680 But my point is this the, the, the whole premise of the thing 753 00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:07,200 has come from this ideological standpoint that hasn't really 754 00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:11,960 been thought through. And, and so, but, but it was the 755 00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:15,920 reaction from most of the audience, which was really 756 00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:19,000 amusing because because none of them had thought through the 757 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:21,840 issues either. And so they have been presented 758 00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:25,960 with this piece of work which they have consumed and have. 759 00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:30,000 And there was no, in the Q&A at the end, there was clearly no 760 00:45:30,720 --> 00:45:37,120 thought process. I mean, for example, this is all 761 00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:40,040 part of this militarization of the Arctic is all happening 762 00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:43,560 because the ice is melting. And the bad guys in this are 763 00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:47,000 Russia and China. But China is spending more money 764 00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:49,960 now on building Ice Breakers than they ever have in the past. 765 00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:53,480 And I'm thinking, well, hold on a second, if why are they 766 00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:56,840 investing in Ice Breakers if the ice is melting, right? 767 00:45:56,840 --> 00:46:00,200 So, so the whole argument is in turn, nobody in the room got 768 00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:01,680 this. Nobody in the room could 769 00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:04,600 understand this concept. On me just thinking ahead to 770 00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:08,200 2030 when global emissions have dropped to below 0 and all the 771 00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:10,400 ice comes back. I, I couldn't comment on that. 772 00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:12,120 I mean, and, and Russia the same. 773 00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:14,960 They're building nuclear, nuclear powered Ice Breakers, 774 00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,520 right? So, so why are they doing this 775 00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:23,520 if the ice is all melting? It's, it's, it's the, the, the, 776 00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:27,240 the, the lack of of thought and consideration in that room for 777 00:46:27,240 --> 00:46:29,880 what they were being presented with was off the charts. 778 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,240 It was amazing. And I'm not sure whether that 779 00:46:33,240 --> 00:46:36,040 is, is the point that I was originally intending to make 780 00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:39,160 anyway, but but I'll make, I'll make that point because it was 781 00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:42,720 quite an incredible experience just to be in a room with, with 782 00:46:42,720 --> 00:46:46,520 100 and 150 people watching this, this documentary and 783 00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:48,400 listening to them speak afterwards. 784 00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:51,200 Quite amazing. The further you go through life, 785 00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:56,040 the more perhaps as a generalisation, the more evident 786 00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:58,120 it becomes. It it is. 787 00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:06,280 I think it is harder to change your responses to things or the 788 00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:09,680 the way you do think about things or the OR your behaviours 789 00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:13,640 the further you go through life. Again, I, I, you know, I know 790 00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:17,040 there will absolutely be people listening who we'll reject that 791 00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:19,800 out of hand at a personal level, which is fine. 792 00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:28,160 But but yes, I, I think by and large, we are all conditioned by 793 00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:30,040 our experiences very early on in life. 794 00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:32,760 And I mean, OK, I don't know nearly enough about it, but if 795 00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:37,520 you that there are people who speak very clearly about this in 796 00:47:37,720 --> 00:47:42,200 so far as what's imprinted on a child's mind or behaviour by the 797 00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:44,720 age of 7. And it's it, you know, it's 798 00:47:44,720 --> 00:47:47,760 very, very significant. And I think this goes back to 799 00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:53,000 the sort of the white hat thing or coalescing or what, you know, 800 00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:57,280 what Jason Kristoff talks about with the, the, the well, but but 801 00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:04,160 the, the idea that either you do grow up as you know, there, 802 00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,040 there are variables here, but the idea that you do grow up as 803 00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:11,000 somebody who is looking to be part of a group and needing 804 00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:17,440 those sorts of life lines as you perceive them or you're not. 805 00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:25,000 And I don't think that broadly speaking, people change in that 806 00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:27,280 fundamental sense. And I, and I remember this 807 00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:32,480 coming out, we, Mike and Brian and I went to a pub in Plymouth 808 00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:34,840 a couple of months ago. And we, we, we were chatting to 809 00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:40,400 people and, and these stories were being shared about how, 810 00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:43,080 because I think a number of people there who certainly 811 00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:45,920 described that they'd woken up during the COVID thing. 812 00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:49,480 And, and, and there was a lady there who had she, I can't 813 00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:51,560 forget actually, whether she was in, she was working, she was 814 00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:53,760 either working in a care home or in a sort of medical setting, I 815 00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:55,720 can't remember which it was. I think maybe she was a nurse 816 00:48:56,520 --> 00:49:03,040 and she was talking about how she just conscience wouldn't let 817 00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:05,720 her continue to do the things they were being asked to do. 818 00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:10,680 And I asked her whether she was sort of surprised by that. 819 00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:12,800 And could you think of other instances in life? 820 00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:15,160 And it was something she'd never really examined. 821 00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:17,560 And it was very interesting her response because she just sort 822 00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:21,800 of thought back and thought that actually there were other, many 823 00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:25,000 other instances in which she had effectively express the same 824 00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:26,680 sorts of behaviour. But of course, it hadn't been 825 00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,800 controversial because it wasn't largely out of kilter with what 826 00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:32,280 the people around her were doing or thinking. 827 00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:40,160 So I, I, I think that that who we are is, is shaped from from a 828 00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:42,880 very early age and that, and that does inform the way that we 829 00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:45,560 will go on to think about things, even if we're, we're 830 00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:48,360 always learning stuff. But I think there's AI think 831 00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:51,480 there is definitely a difference between learning, you know, 832 00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:55,920 processing information and and then forming points of views, 833 00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:59,080 all judgement. A friend of mine made a comment 834 00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:01,960 about a year ago. He said to me, human progress, 835 00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:05,360 the myth. I, I, I'm going to say I'm not 836 00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:10,080 sure whether that's entirely true because, you know, the, 837 00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:15,240 the, the fact of the matter is when, when we live in a, an 838 00:50:15,240 --> 00:50:19,520 environment that's Neolithic times or so on, there's certain 839 00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:23,520 things that we need to do to survive that we don't need to do 840 00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:26,560 anymore. So you know what, what 841 00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:32,320 proportion of people actually would know how to do something 842 00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:36,680 basic like, you know, kill an animal and, and prepare it for, 843 00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:38,920 for eating and so on. Is that pro? 844 00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:40,640 Is that progress? I don't know. 845 00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:44,680 But, but anyway, the point is, I think, I think the problem that 846 00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:52,360 humanity exhibits is that, umm, we don't recognise the section 847 00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:57,560 of humanity which, umm, whether we want to call them sociopaths 848 00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:00,040 or psychopaths or whatever, which inevitably ends up at the, 849 00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:03,920 at the top of the pyramid. I, I think there's, I think that 850 00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:06,560 section of humanity certainly doesn't progress. 851 00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:09,640 And, and because they effectively control the purse 852 00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:14,000 strings and, and drive policy and drive societies and so on. 853 00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:22,840 Umm, we find ourselves, we find ourselves unable to get rid of 854 00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:27,840 that particular aspect of, of humanity and, and therefore we, 855 00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:31,760 we, we perhaps maybe that's holding us back in some ways. 856 00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:34,320 I think we progress in some ways and we don't progress in others. 857 00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:37,680 I mean, I think it would be equally easy to argue that the 858 00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:44,600 fact that that that many of us don't know how to how to survive 859 00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:47,960 in certain circumstances anymore is a backward step and not a 860 00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:50,880 progressive step. But anyway, maybe Charles can 861 00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:52,440 say something about that. Absolutely. 862 00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:56,480 Well, because I take a very literal view of it and and I 863 00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:59,720 think, I mean, just imagine, you know, the the creator looking 864 00:51:59,720 --> 00:52:04,000 down upon the creations and going through, you know, going 865 00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:08,000 down the list. But, yeah, they can still fly, 866 00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:10,080 pretty much. They're good at, you know, 867 00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:12,120 catching. Catching the things they need to 868 00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:13,200 eat. Fish up. 869 00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:14,000 Still swimming. All right. 870 00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:15,280 Monkeys. Yeah, they can still climb 871 00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:16,920 trees. Humans. 872 00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:20,680 Oh, no, hang on. No, they can't really run. 873 00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:22,760 They can't bend down and pick stuff up. 874 00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:28,200 They don't know what to eat. They can't climb stuff. 875 00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:31,720 Yeah. So no, I mean, this is a really 876 00:52:31,720 --> 00:52:36,760 serious point in my mind. I think at a species level, we 877 00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:40,800 have regressed terrifically. And I don't just mean 878 00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:43,800 physically. Yes, I, yes, I do absolutely 879 00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:47,280 think that is a very, very serious point and why, you know, 880 00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:48,960 we talk about conditioning when one's younger. 881 00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:52,240 I mean, why, why do we just stop doing the stuff that that we 882 00:52:52,240 --> 00:52:54,640 should be able to do? Why when people get to the age 883 00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:57,240 of, I don't know, whatever it is, 15 if they've got a mobile 884 00:52:57,240 --> 00:53:00,760 telephone or perhaps 20 if not, they just stop, stop running, 885 00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:02,840 they stop swimming, they stop climbing, they stop doing all 886 00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:05,240 the sorts of things that keep you active. 887 00:53:05,240 --> 00:53:09,560 And I absolutely believe in healthy mind, in a healthy body. 888 00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:12,160 And again, mental capacity. The problem is that we don't, 889 00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:15,960 the physical stuff is easier to, to sort of articulate because 890 00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:18,280 you can quite clearly see, oh, well, that person can't do that 891 00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:20,800 or I can't run a mile in whatever. 892 00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:24,720 The mental thing is harder to, to deal with because you don't 893 00:53:24,720 --> 00:53:28,680 know what your mental capacity could be because it's it, you 894 00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:30,920 know, it's not possible to, to regard that. 895 00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:33,160 But, but I think we absolutely have failed. 896 00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:37,080 When you think of the, the way in which people could recite 897 00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:42,520 enormous volumes of poetry or song or, or whatever, we cannot 898 00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:46,000 do that now. We have, So I, I don't regard it 899 00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:48,360 as progress that we've basically outsourced all of our 900 00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:50,640 capabilities. I regard that as a massive 901 00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:52,160 vulnerability. Look where we are now. 902 00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:56,720 We talk the entire time about the, you know, the system being 903 00:53:56,720 --> 00:54:00,680 shut down, no money, no food, no whatever. 904 00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:04,560 But but and the vast majority of people are totally stuck because 905 00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:09,280 they cannot rely upon themselves or the small groups of humans 906 00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:12,640 that they engage or operate with in order to achieve that. 907 00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:15,560 So I know it sounds sort of basic and simplistic, but I 908 00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:17,560 think it should be basic and simplistic. 909 00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:21,560 And I think we are absolute fools to imagine that we can 910 00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:26,760 sort of tech our way out of it. We can't and, and I'm afraid to 911 00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:29,400 say, and I, I do take a really hard line on this. 912 00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:32,640 I think that it is an absolute abuse of the, you know, 913 00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:37,160 incredible sort of privilege of life to to squander that by not 914 00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:40,880 absolutely making the best of all the capabilities that we 915 00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:42,240 have. You know, we don't. 916 00:54:42,240 --> 00:54:46,560 One of our dogs was barking in the night and I couldn't quite 917 00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:51,400 think what what was going on. And I need to find that, you 918 00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:54,600 know, there was a huge confection of feathers on the 919 00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:57,000 lawn this morning. Evidently there was a fox around 920 00:54:57,000 --> 00:54:58,200 the house. I couldn't hear it. 921 00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:00,720 I couldn't sense it, but one of the dogs could. 922 00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:05,400 So, yeah, we, we have lost ground and and we need to regain 923 00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:07,800 it. It's it is not all it's not all 924 00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:09,600 doom and gloom. I'm reading an excellent book 925 00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:12,040 about Crete during the Second World War at the minute and the 926 00:55:12,240 --> 00:55:17,000 incredible feats of, you know, sort of endurance and everything 927 00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:20,080 else by those, by the credence. And I dare say that persists to 928 00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:21,880 an extent to this day. Anyway, I know, I know we've got 929 00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:24,880 to wrap it up. But yeah, we have not progressed 930 00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:27,280 in many respects. We need to, we need to reclaim 931 00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:31,000 that, that ground. Thank you for this week's 932 00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:32,400 Mantel. Catch up with you next week. 933 00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:33,280 Thank you.